Drilling holes for dowels?

"Jerome Meekings" wrote:

> If they don't do anything for registration and they don't do
> anything
> for joint strength. What is the point in using them?
>
> This is a serious question not a troll. I had thought that the main
> use
> was registration.

Best define registration.

I use them for top registration and consider 1/64" close enough for
tops and atom bombs.

Having said that, I use oversize stock and then run thru a drum sander
to get a finished top.

YMMV

Lew


> --
>>replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>>Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
>>and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ah! Well, a biscuit joiner may be a better choice than dowels. Biscuits are
> much more forgiving.

The problem with Biscuits is that they are great for locating a joint
while the glue sets but have little shear strength. Dowels do as do
floating tenons. this means that using a biscuit joiner to replace
dowels is usually a pour choice. If you want the speed and accuracy of a
biscuit joiner but with the strength of a dowel then a Domino is the
only choice now.

--
>replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
>and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 2:52 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've come to the conclusion that biscuits aren't much good for
> >>> position, either. Theit fit is too sloppy to register the pieces
> >>> properly in either axis.
> >>
> >> Think clamp.
> >
> > There is no clamp in the world that will make a biscuit do anything
> > for registration. Either the clamp (or caul) does it or it doesn't.
> > The biscuit has nothing to do with it. BTDT.
>
> I agree. But you can wiggle a biscuit 'till everything lines up, then clamp
> the sucker in place until the glue hardens.

If they don't do anything for registration and they don't do anything
for joint strength. What is the point in using them?

This is a serious question not a troll. I had thought that the main use
was registration.

--
>replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
>and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

ChairMan <[email protected]> wrote:

> In news:1j6hphu.1x10z8kovttzkN%[email protected],
> Jerome Meekings <[email protected]>spewed forth:
> > HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Ah! Well, a biscuit joiner may be a better choice than dowels.
> >> Biscuits are much more forgiving.
> >
> > The problem with Biscuits is that they are great for locating a joint
> > while the glue sets but have little shear strength. Dowels do as do
> > floating tenons. this means that using a biscuit joiner to replace
> > dowels is usually a pour choice. If you want the speed and accuracy
> > of a biscuit joiner but with the strength of a dowel then a Domino is
> > the only choice now.
> >
> >> replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
> >> Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
> >> and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml
>
> uh uh<g>
>
> http://www.freudtools.com/p-420-fdw710k-doweling-joiner.aspx

Sorry while it is a nice tool its use is much more limited than the
Domino or biscuit joiner.

For a single or twin dowel then it is as fast but that is realistically
its limit. Also if you need to limit twist you have to have 2 dowels at
32mm centers so your minimum material size is limited.

AFAIK a Domino can be used in place that you could use biscuits but you
can get exact registration with the first and then wiggle room with the
others on long boards. In places where the maximum 10mm is too small you
can use multiple or ganged dominos.


--
>replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
>and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

On Sep 23, 2:52=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I've come to the conclusion that biscuits aren't much good for
> > position, either. =A0Theit fit is too sloppy to register the pieces
> > properly in either axis.
>
> Think clamp.

There is no clamp in the world that will make a biscuit do anything
for registration. Either the clamp (or caul) does it or it doesn't.
The biscuit has nothing to do with it. BTDT.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:53:39 -0700 (PDT), jodleren <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
>drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
>but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
>wood drill (bit)?
>
>Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
>pictures?)
>
>WBR
>Sonnich

Did you make a dimple? Tighten drillpress table? Sharp bit?

A drill bushing is usually a hardened piece of steel that keeps the drill
from moving at all.

http://www.frasers.com/displayFile.jsf?type=infosheetImg&infosheetId=b10827&fileName=bush.jpg

When your drill is in the bushing or guide, it can not move to the left or
right. It goes straight.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

"jodleren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f7526916-6e74-475a-9ec5-ccd64c3906b9@o35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 22, 5:01 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 8:53 am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> > but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> > wood drill (bit)?
>
> > Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> > pictures?)
>
> > WBR
> > Sonnich
>
> Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
> good brad point bit cheaper. You don't say what size hole you're
> drilling, I'm just assuming it's in the half inch or smaller range.
>
> As you've found out the hard way, a standard wood bit is the worst
> thing to use for precision drilling. You might be able to get it
> centering better if you drilled a shallow hole in the center with a
> much smaller bit, but that's basically what the brad point drill does.

I did a fast search on the net, and cannot see what the difference is
between a normal wood drill and a "brad point bit" is. Both are
drilles, with the small 2mm tip in front? I have tried using a 2 mm
drill bit, then a 6 mm drill bit.
I use mostly 6 mm dowels, but also 8 and 10 mm.
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/HSS-Brad-Point-sm.jpg HSS,
but my normal wood bits look the same.

bdp: As for not using dowels, the same problem apply: there are other
ways of putting things together, but precission is the same problem.
Then next problem is my work(shop) in my apartment and limited
spaces :) Otherwise, I agree :)


This is a close-up view of a brad point bit.

http://images2d.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp53689%3Enu%3D3395%3E%3B5:%3E274%3EWSNRCG%3D323:79:%3B669:7nu0mrj

On Sep 22, 8:53=A0am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
> I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> wood drill (bit)?
>
> Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> pictures?)
>
> WBR
> Sonnich

Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
good brad point bit cheaper. You don't say what size hole you're
drilling, I'm just assuming it's in the half inch or smaller range.

As you've found out the hard way, a standard wood bit is the worst
thing to use for precision drilling. You might be able to get it
centering better if you drilled a shallow hole in the center with a
much smaller bit, but that's basically what the brad point drill does.

On Sep 22, 7:47=A0pm, [email protected] (Jerome Meekings)
wrote:
> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ah! Well, a biscuit joiner may be a better choice than dowels. Biscuits=
are
> > much more forgiving.
>
> The problem with Biscuits is that they are great for locating a joint
> while the glue sets but have little shear strength. Dowels do as do
> floating tenons. this means that using a biscuit joiner to replace
> dowels is usually a pour choice. If you want the speed and accuracy of a
> biscuit joiner but with the strength of a dowel then a Domino is the
> only choice now.

I've come to the conclusion that biscuits aren't much good for
position, either. Theit fit is too sloppy to register the pieces
properly in either axis.

On Sep 22, 8:01=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 8:53=A0am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> > but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> > wood drill (bit)?
>
> > Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> > pictures?)
>
> > WBR
> > Sonnich
>
> Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
> good brad point bit cheaper. You don't say what size hole you're
> drilling, I'm just assuming it's in the half inch or smaller range.
>
> As you've found out the hard way, a standard wood bit is the worst
> thing to use for precision drilling. You might be able to get it
> centering better if you drilled a shallow hole in the center with a
> much smaller bit, but that's basically what the brad point drill does.

I'm fighting -- with every fiber of my being -- the overwhelming urge
to respond with ... "good point!"

I fear my fight is not going well ;-)

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:53:39 -0700, jodleren wrote:

> I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the drill
> slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit, but are
> there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary wood
> drill (bit)?
>

I suspect that what you're using is not a wood bit, but a common twist
bit. Those were designed for metal. Brad points are what you want for
drilling in wood. Forstner bits are used when a flat bottom hole is
desired, or when a large diameter hole is needed.

That said, it's almost impossible to drill matching holes for dowels
without some sort of jig, even if only a homemade one.

But what some others will tell you, dowels are still a perfectly adequate
method of joinery for most purposes - don't give up.


--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"jodleren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> wood drill (bit)?

Slips? As in produces an oblong or oversized hole when done?

If you are set on using standard twist drill tooling rather than other wood
bits, you could start using a drill bushing set-up to guide the drill...
This generally "fixes" the drill in place so that it doesn't wander during
the cut even if it hits a hard spot, etc. Some of our custoemrs drill raw
timber that sometimes has nails from the field embedded... Ugly work. The
only way to keep the drill straight when it hits a nail or even hard grain
areas is to use a bushing... And even that sometimes won't help if you are
too deep and the tool flexes.

Depending on your volume, if you are doing more than a single hole at a
time, I have otehr ideas, but they border on advertising from me so I won't
go into them at this time. :)

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

jodleren wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:20 pm, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "jodleren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
>>> drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
>>> but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a
>>> ordinary wood drill (bit)?
>>
>> Slips? As in produces an oblong or oversized hole when done?
>>
>> If you are set on using standard twist drill tooling rather than
>> other wood bits, you could start using a drill bushing set-up to
>> guide the drill... This generally "fixes" the drill in place so that
>> it doesn't wander during the cut even if it hits a hard spot, etc.
>> Some of our custoemrs drill raw timber that sometimes has nails from
>> the field embedded... Ugly work. The only way to keep the drill
>> straight when it hits a nail or even hard grain areas is to use a
>> bushing... And even that sometimes won't help if you are too deep
>> and the tool flexes.
>>
>> Depending on your volume, if you are doing more than a single hole
>> at a time, I have otehr ideas, but they border on advertising from
>> me so I won't go into them at this time. :)
>
> Slips: I already have problems here with English, let me explain. When
> drilling a 6 mm hole, the drill goes in, and 0-4 mm down it might
> "jump" say 3 mm causing the hole to be out of place. Wander might be
> the right wonder. Also "drill bushing set-up" is not clear for me.
> I do furniture for myself, and when ordered, say I work in my spare
> time 2 weekends/month on orders. Max order ever was 6 chairs, but a
> volume of 10 is soon to arrive.
>
> Yes, you might add some links to your shop, pictures will help me a
> lot.

Ah! Well, a biscuit joiner may be a better choice than dowels. Biscuits are
much more forgiving.

> If they don't do anything for registration and they don't do anything
> for joint strength. What is the point in using them?
>
> This is a serious question not a troll. I had thought that the main use
> was registration.

They add plenty of strength to "end grain to face grain" joints.

Edge to edge... I concur, there is no point.

-Steve

[email protected] wrote:
> On Sep 23, 2:52 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I've come to the conclusion that biscuits aren't much good for
>>> position, either. Theit fit is too sloppy to register the pieces
>>> properly in either axis.
>>
>> Think clamp.
>
> There is no clamp in the world that will make a biscuit do anything
> for registration. Either the clamp (or caul) does it or it doesn't.
> The biscuit has nothing to do with it. BTDT.

I agree. But you can wiggle a biscuit 'till everything lines up, then clamp
the sucker in place until the glue hardens.

[email protected] wrote:
>
> I've come to the conclusion that biscuits aren't much good for
> position, either. Theit fit is too sloppy to register the pieces
> properly in either axis.

Think clamp.

Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
> good brad point bit cheaper. You don't say what size hole you're
> drilling, I'm just assuming it's in the half inch or smaller range.


I bought the HSS BP bits from Woodcrafters? and they are excellent and
(watch your fingrs) very sharp.

On Sep 22, 7:53=A0am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> jodleren wrote:
> > I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> > but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> > wood drill (bit)?
>
> > Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> > pictures?)
>
> The only _real_ answer is to quit using dowels... :)
>
> The "trick" is to use a doweling jig -- either make one or you can buy
> versions from inexpensive to ridiculously expensive.
>
> --

I've had really good luck using a Forstner bit AND a doweling jig ...
something like this one:

http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/20262-01-500.jpg

I lost count of how many dowels are holding my recently completed wine
rack together, but ... no problems.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FxNEvbUE3h-K9mozG0PUKw?feat=3Ddirectli=
nk

I think Forstner bits like low rpm's ... incidentally.

On Sep 22, 7:42=A0am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:01=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sep 22, 8:53=A0am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,

> > Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
> > good brad point bit cheaper.

> I did a fast search on the net, and cannot see what the difference is
> between a normal wood drill and a "brad point bit" is.

There are a dozen types of drill bits, of which four are important
to woodworkers. These are auger (long spiral flutes, with screw-form
pilot in many cases) for deep holes, brad point (a better point form
for locating holes than the 135 degree split point drills used for
metal),
spade bits (fine for carpentry, but a last resort for woodworkers),
and Forstner bits (good appearance at entry point, square bottom
holes).

If you want a good hole location, use a drill guide bushing like in a
doweling
jig, or something like this:

http://www.mannyswoodworkersplace.com/5011002.html

Never attempt to drill small holes then expand them, it defeats the
centering
of any drill except the Forstner when the center of the hole is
missing.
That only works with conical points (like metal drills).

On Sep 22, 5:20=A0pm, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "jodleren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> > but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> > wood drill (bit)?
>
> Slips? =A0As in produces an oblong or oversized hole when done?
>
> If you are set on using standard twist drill tooling rather than other wo=
od
> bits, you could start using a drill bushing set-up to guide the drill...
> This generally "fixes" the drill in place so that it doesn't wander durin=
g
> the cut even if it hits a hard spot, etc. =A0Some of our custoemrs drill =
raw
> timber that sometimes has nails from the field embedded... =A0Ugly work. =
=A0The
> only way to keep the drill straight when it hits a nail or even hard grai=
n
> areas is to use a bushing... =A0And even that sometimes won't help if you=
are
> too deep and the tool flexes.
>
> Depending on your volume, if you are doing more than a single hole at a
> time, I have otehr ideas, but they border on advertising from me so I won=
't
> go into them at this time. =A0:)

Slips: I already have problems here with English, let me explain. When
drilling a 6 mm hole, the drill goes in, and 0-4 mm down it might
"jump" say 3 mm causing the hole to be out of place. Wander might be
the right wonder. Also "drill bushing set-up" is not clear for me.
I do furniture for myself, and when ordered, say I work in my spare
time 2 weekends/month on orders. Max order ever was 6 chairs, but a
volume of 10 is soon to arrive.

Yes, you might add some links to your shop, pictures will help me a
lot.

WBR
Sonnich

On Sep 22, 5:01=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 8:53=A0am, jodleren <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> > drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> > but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> > wood drill (bit)?
>
> > Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> > pictures?)
>
> > WBR
> > Sonnich
>
> Brad point bit. Forstner is fine too but if I recall you can get a
> good brad point bit cheaper. You don't say what size hole you're
> drilling, I'm just assuming it's in the half inch or smaller range.
>
> As you've found out the hard way, a standard wood bit is the worst
> thing to use for precision drilling. You might be able to get it
> centering better if you drilled a shallow hole in the center with a
> much smaller bit, but that's basically what the brad point drill does.

I did a fast search on the net, and cannot see what the difference is
between a normal wood drill and a "brad point bit" is. Both are
drilles, with the small 2mm tip in front? I have tried using a 2 mm
drill bit, then a 6 mm drill bit.
I use mostly 6 mm dowels, but also 8 and 10 mm.
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/HSS-Brad-Point-sm.jpg HSS,
but my normal wood bits look the same.

bdp: As for not using dowels, the same problem apply: there are other
ways of putting things together, but precission is the same problem.
Then next problem is my work(shop) in my apartment and limited
spaces :) Otherwise, I agree :)

jodleren wrote:
> I keep on having problems drilling holes for dowels, sometimes the
> drill slips as much as 3 mm - I am thinking of using a fostner bit,
> but are there any good solution for doing dowels holes with a ordinary
> wood drill (bit)?
>
> Basically: are there some good instructions/idea on the net (with
> pictures?)

The only _real_ answer is to quit using dowels... :)

The "trick" is to use a doweling jig -- either make one or you can buy
versions from inexpensive to ridiculously expensive.

--

diggerop wrote:
> "jodleren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
...
> bdp: As for not using dowels, the same problem apply: there are other
> ways of putting things together, but precission is the same problem.
...

Whatever bit you use won't solve the basic problem on its own. The
point is to get accuracy (and most importrantly, repeatability) you need
a placement mechanism other than trying to repeat the measurement of
dead center on multiple pieces as well as on the centerline of the other
axis.

W/o the reproducibility there, the drill is on the mark is still
dependent on getting that mark which is a pita w/o a fixture.

Even if you make something extremely simple and it's not dead center it
doesn't matter; simply register from the same surface and the offset is
compensated. At least you're now down to only one axis to align to and
once that is done (which is much simpler than holding the drill bit
point freehand) having a guide cuts it to only the other axis at worst.

--

In news:1j6hphu.1x10z8kovttzkN%[email protected],
Jerome Meekings <[email protected]>spewed forth:
> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ah! Well, a biscuit joiner may be a better choice than dowels.
>> Biscuits are much more forgiving.
>
> The problem with Biscuits is that they are great for locating a joint
> while the glue sets but have little shear strength. Dowels do as do
> floating tenons. this means that using a biscuit joiner to replace
> dowels is usually a pour choice. If you want the speed and accuracy
> of a biscuit joiner but with the strength of a dowel then a Domino is
> the only choice now.
>
>> replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>> Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
>> and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

uh uh<g>

http://www.freudtools.com/p-420-fdw710k-doweling-joiner.aspx