Hello all,
Well, it's time to finally buy a dovetail jig. I've narrowed it down
to the Leigh D4R and the Porter Cable 24" Omnijig model 77240. I need
the variable spacing and the 24" width.
I've searched the archives and read all that has been written so far.
It has been a while since this has been discussed and was hoping
someone has something new to add, some real hands on experience with
both jigs and can speak from experience. I keep waiting for one of
the woodworking mags to do a detailed comparison and am surprised that
they have not yet.
So, following are some questions I had. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry
Any comments on any of these issues/features? :
1. First, my overall impression of the two jigs: Both are
functionally the same. The Omnijig is built like a tank, but the
machining and manufacturing tolerances are less precise than the D4R.
I have read a few comments about the finger-template-bar being
seriously bowed and also about a height mismatch or step between the
finger template and the stabilizer bar causing the router to not sit
level. The D4R is more precisely made though perhaps a bit more
delicate. Any truth to these impressions?
2. The Omnijig bit depth gage and template positioning stops - Are
these really accurate enough so that, once dialed in, test cuts are
unnecessary. Or, are they almost close enough and therefore just a
gimmick?
3. Clamping systems: The Omnijig looks nice?
4. Dust collection ?
5. Available bits: Omnijig uses 1/2 shank bits, the D4R uses 8mm.
Does either system have more or fewer bits available (width, depth and
dovetail angle)?
6. How does the selection of available bits affect the look of the
finished dovetails?
7. Router stability?
8. Do either of the jigs have any great, must have features or any
annoying or deal-breaking features?
dpb wrote:
> If I were again to think of it, I'd far rather do the "more funner"
> stuff and pass off the routine repetitive stuff...
No thanks ... nothing in your argument is new to me as I've used that
rationale on cabinet _doors_ for years, but made the decision a long
time ago to draw the line at drawers, and always will.
You reach a point where you take away too much of the "by hand" aspect
of the work and you end up with the problem Tom Plaman had when he
switched to using a CNC on some of his carvings ... he found out quickly
it was the "by hand" aspect his clients wanted, not the product of
something that was merely a convenience to him.
My kitchens are not the fanciest, and far from the best out there, but
they sell themselves, and, more often then not, a house or two ... and
I'm still building them in today's economic climate.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" wrote
>
> No thanks ... nothing in your argument is new to me as I've used that
> rationale on cabinet _doors_ for years, but made the decision a long time
> ago to draw the line at drawers, and always will.
>
> You reach a point where you take away too much of the "by hand" aspect of
> the work and you end up with the problem Tom Plaman had when he switched
> to using a CNC on some of his carvings ... he found out quickly it was the
> "by hand" aspect his clients wanted, not the product of something that was
> merely a convenience to him.
>
> My kitchens are not the fanciest, and far from the best out there, but
> they sell themselves, and, more often then not, a house or two ... and I'm
> still building them in today's economic climate.
>
> --
Would a new (or different brand) dovetail jig be a solution for your
"creeping fingers" problem? It seems that if this jig did a good job in the
past, and you are having problems now, it is time for an upgrade of some
kind. Have you talked to the Leigh people about this?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f3c5235b-59c4-41ba-a2df-3536b56e86b5@d21g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 24, 7:53 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
again, thanks for the info. I knew that the fingers were adjustable,
had assumed that in a standard dt setup they would all be next to one
another, and hence couldn't flex independently... wrong assumption!
shelly
;~) and the halves can be seperated so far that a spacer/filler is used in
between the area between the fingers so that the router bit will not go
where it should not.
I have only used the 12" omnijig, but here is my .02$ anyway
> 2. The Omnijig bit depth gage and template positioning stops - Are
not a gimmick, but no big deal. You can make test scraps that serve
the same purpose
>
> 3. Clamping systems: The Omnijig looks nice?
it work well
> 5. Available bits: Omnijig uses 1/2 shank bits, the D4R uses 8mm.
> Does either system have more or fewer bits available (width, depth and
> dovetail angle)?
The omnijig uses 7=B0 bits. I've seen replacement bits that are
advertised at 8=B0 . I have no clue if it will work within 1=B0, if the
bits are close enough anyway, etc. I assume that the 12 and 24 inch
jigs use the same bits. For through dovetails, the bit angle has to
match the template angle (omnijig) There doesn't seem to be a whole
lot of selection for the omnijig bits.
I assume that either jig should use scrap pieces under the template to
prevent it from bowing
enjoy,
shelly
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:56:33 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00054-20090807-1820.jpg
>>
>> The results you are showing there are way better than any that I was ever
>> getting, even after multiple weekends of futzing about with the jig, wood,
>> etc.
>
>What I've taken to doing is to setup and cut a single tail board, then
>swap to cutting all the pin boards, making sure the first few pin boards
>are good joints with that first cut tail board.
>
>Then I flip the jig fingers and cut all the tail boards in reverse order
>(last cut to first cut), testing each pair, and adjusting the culprit
>fingers as needed ... and the first few (last cut) always need adjustment.
>
>By the time I get back to the first dozen or so pin boards, the culprit
>fingers are basically "adjusted" back to where I started.
>
>PITA, should not be necessary, and the only way I can get acceptable
>results on a large "batch cut" run ... still quicker than hand cut.
>
>Problem is, by the time I get around to the drawers in a kitchen
>project, I'm already worn out and too damn busy to solve the problem
>permanently, so just go for the quick fix at the time to get it done.
>
>Rest of the time the Leigh sits on a shelf and doesn't get a thought
>otherwise ... time to do something about it would be now. But I won't
>hold my breath! :(
I would think that you would have a finite number of drawer heights,
or that you could standardize during the design process. If that is
so and you wound up with three or four standard drawer heights, I
wonder if you could get a perfect setup for each and use that to cut a
solid template out of phenolic/acrylic/aluminum etc.
Probably a rainy morning's worth of fuss but ,once you're done, the
moving finger problem is gone for good on production runs.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>
> The fingers in the Leigh D4 are two halves, each tightened separately.
> One half can indeed move independently, by design, and this is what is
> happening.
>
> > He might be talking about the "fingers" of the joint itself, in which
> > case it could be either a worn or flattened bushing, or a setup
> > problem - wood not clamped down well enough, the side guides working
> > themselves loose, etc. Maybe even the pressure that he's using on the
> > template. IIRC, the instructions say to only route along one side of
> > the finger template
>
ahso! Thanks for the info. didn't know that.
shelly
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00054-20090807-1820.jpg
>
> The results you are showing there are way better than any that I was ever
> getting, even after multiple weekends of futzing about with the jig, wood,
> etc.
What I've taken to doing is to setup and cut a single tail board, then
swap to cutting all the pin boards, making sure the first few pin boards
are good joints with that first cut tail board.
Then I flip the jig fingers and cut all the tail boards in reverse order
(last cut to first cut), testing each pair, and adjusting the culprit
fingers as needed ... and the first few (last cut) always need adjustment.
By the time I get back to the first dozen or so pin boards, the culprit
fingers are basically "adjusted" back to where I started.
PITA, should not be necessary, and the only way I can get acceptable
results on a large "batch cut" run ... still quicker than hand cut.
Problem is, by the time I get around to the drawers in a kitchen
project, I'm already worn out and too damn busy to solve the problem
permanently, so just go for the quick fix at the time to get it done.
Rest of the time the Leigh sits on a shelf and doesn't get a thought
otherwise ... time to do something about it would be now. But I won't
hold my breath! :(
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sep 22, 4:57=A0pm, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:41:02 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >> 6. How does the selection of available bits affect the look of the
> >> finished dovetails?
>
> >With the Leigh the bits differ in angle and the larger bits are, suited =
for
> >thicker stock.
>
> Only for half blinds. =A0For through dovetails they are all 8 degrees.
> The Akeda is the only jig that does different angles for through
> dovetails.
>
> -Kevin
I agree that the Akeda has the nicest looking dovetail angles because
they move with the thickness of the wood. An 8 degree angle just does
not look right on a 1/2" piece of wood.
Add to it that the Akeda is much easier to use than any other jig on
the market and you have a winning combination.
Tom Watson wrote:
> I would think that you would have a finite number of drawer heights,
> or that you could standardize during the design process. If that is
> so and you wound up with three or four standard drawer heights, I
> wonder if you could get a perfect setup for each and use that to cut a
> solid template out of phenolic/acrylic/aluminum etc.
>
> Probably a rainy morning's worth of fuss but ,once you're done, the
> moving finger problem is gone for good on production runs.
Sorry, Tom ... got the flu, not thinking clearly, and probably missing
the point. You mean a setup template for the jig itself?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
dpb wrote:
> It's been _a_long_time_ (tm :) ) since I did production work for pay and
> don't intend to return but I'm virtually positive that any more I'd
> simply buy drawer boxes rather than hand cut them (even w/ fixed jig).
> Just too many competitive choices these days...
You can indeed get away with that if you use drawer slides that work on
the "opening less 1"" principle, but try it with under mount slides like
Hettichs, where the drawer has to be built specifically to the slides
specs and with close tolerances, and you would be doing nothing but
creating installation problems that would take far more time to resolve
than making the drawers themselves.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> If you've looked through the archives, you've read of my recent
> investigation into trying to get gapless dovetails with my D4 (not a D4R)
> and my decision to replace it with the Akeda jig. If you can get the
> optional router support for the D4R, that may alleviate part of the
> problems I was seeing.
Recently did another batch of kitchen drawers with my 7 year old Leigh
D4 (half blind joints). Biggest problem in batch routing parts in a run
of 20 or so drawers with the jig is that some of the fingers move apart
very slightly, but noticeably, over time, with gaps showing up in the
joins part way through a run if you don't keep a close eye.
Only those fingers in a particular location see to be the culprits and
no amount of tightening solves the problem.
Replaced both with unused ones to no avail, so I'm assuming it is an
issue with the bar they slide on ... perhaps worn from use, or from over
tightening in the past?
As always, the final product is quite acceptable and a damn sight
quicker and better than if I did 20 drawers by hand, but it is
exasperating that absolute consistency in a large run of batch cut
drawer parts has always been somewhat unattainable using my particular
Leigh.
One or two, or a few drawers, no problems ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c7b5de35-784e-40ee-a2d0-c2e9e0312543@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> the gap problem might be a worn bushing
>
> shelloy
Probably not, as he stated that the fingers move.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Sep 23, 7:53 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:c7b5de35-784e-40ee-a2d0-c2e9e0312543@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > the gap problem might be a worn bushing
>
> > shelloy
>
> Probably not, as he stated that the fingers move.
I understand, but still doubt it. It would take quite a bang (like
dropping it) to bend a finger The impression I got is that he meant
the fingers wiggle - something I don't understand at all.
Understanding how the "Leigh DT jig" in particular adjusts helps to
understand the problem? All fingers are infinately adjustable and can be
spaced either directly next to each other or wider apart for wider pins and
tails. If a finger moves it basically changes the set up spacing. This
either creates loose fitting pins and tails with gaps or tighter fitting
pins and tails that typically are damaged/crushed when fully seated.
[email protected] wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Well, it's time to finally buy a dovetail jig. I've narrowed it down
> to the Leigh D4R and the Porter Cable 24" Omnijig model 77240. I need
> the variable spacing and the 24" width.
>
> I've searched the archives and read all that has been written so far.
> It has been a while since this has been discussed and was hoping
> someone has something new to add, some real hands on experience with
> both jigs and can speak from experience. I keep waiting for one of
> the woodworking mags to do a detailed comparison and am surprised that
> they have not yet.
>
> So, following are some questions I had. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry
>
>
> Any comments on any of these issues/features? :
>
... snip
If you've looked through the archives, you've read of my recent
investigation into trying to get gapless dovetails with my D4 (not a D4R)
and my decision to replace it with the Akeda jig. If you can get the
optional router support for the D4R, that may alleviate part of the
problems I was seeing.
If you're close to Tucson, I'll make you a deal on my D4. :-)
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
snip
> Ever notice that folks who are not familiar with hand crafted kitchens
> will walk through the Borg and think the KraftMaid kitchens are beautiful;
> while those whose eye has gotten used to seeing hand crafted cabinets will
> remark that the KraftMaid look "cheap" ... heard that remarked on
> countless times from clients.
And to add to that, the pieces that actually do have DT'S, are NOT suppose
to give you splinters when you run your hand over the joint. Shocking how
furniture manufacturers skip the detail of sanding the DT'S.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ce60e44d-0d16-4bdf-91b4-eb1b27cbc37a@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> Hello all,
>
> Well, it's time to finally buy a dovetail jig. I've narrowed it down
> to the Leigh D4R and the Porter Cable 24" Omnijig model 77240. I need
> the variable spacing and the 24" width.
>
> I've searched the archives and read all that has been written so far.
> It has been a while since this has been discussed and was hoping
> someone has something new to add, some real hands on experience with
> both jigs and can speak from experience. I keep waiting for one of
> the woodworking mags to do a detailed comparison and am surprised that
> they have not yet.
>
> So, following are some questions I had. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry
>
>
> Any comments on any of these issues/features? :
>
> 1. First, my overall impression of the two jigs: Both are
> functionally the same. The Omnijig is built like a tank, but the
> machining and manufacturing tolerances are less precise than the D4R.
> I have read a few comments about the finger-template-bar being
> seriously bowed and also about a height mismatch or step between the
> finger template and the stabilizer bar causing the router to not sit
> level. The D4R is more precisely made though perhaps a bit more
> delicate. Any truth to these impressions?
I own a D4 and have for about 12 years. I have no complaints. I have heard
of less than happy Omnijig owners, bits being made incorrectly was the major
problem. Some have reported fingers slipping with the Leigh D4.
> 2. The Omnijig bit depth gage and template positioning stops - Are
> these really accurate enough so that, once dialed in, test cuts are
> unnecessary. Or, are they almost close enough and therefore just a
> gimmick?
IMHO it is a gimmick, but that is only my opinion. I experience has shown
me that 2 "identical" sized DT bits will cut differently and will needed to
be adjusted differently. IMHO every bit has it's "sweet spot" to perform
the best cut expecially for "half blind DT's. Additionally every type of
wood and its hardness will require a slightly different bit depth setting.
The set up gauge with the Omni IMHO is a place to start from to achieve the
best cut.
>
> 3. Clamping systems: The Omnijig looks nice?
The Leigh works.
>
> 4. Dust collection ?
Leigh offers a router support/dust collection set up for <$100.
>
> 5. Available bits: Omnijig uses 1/2 shank bits, the D4R uses 8mm.
> Does either system have more or fewer bits available (width, depth and
> dovetail angle)?
Leigh offers full sets of bits but I recomend that you buy what you need as
needed.
>
> 6. How does the selection of available bits affect the look of the
> finished dovetails?
With the Leigh the bits differ in angle and the larger bits are, suited for
thicker stock.
>
> 7. Router stability?
Typical on the D4 probably better with the set up I mentioned above
concerning your DC question.
>
> 8. Do either of the jigs have any great, must have features or any
> annoying or deal-breaking features?
The Leigh offers other templates for different type decorative joints and a
box joint/finger joint jig that is a no brainer and works very well.
The immediate reaction I have every time I see the Omni is that I think I am
looking at an air craft carrier, it looks like it would take up a lot of
real-estate in the shop.
Swingman wrote:
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00054-20090807-1820.jpg
The results you are showing there are way better than any that I was ever
getting, even after multiple weekends of futzing about with the jig, wood,
etc.
>
> ... but takes a bit too much time futzing with the problem to get the
> desired result for a small production shop, and that's a smaller than
> usual run.
>
While lacking the infinite variability, I'm really sold on the Akeda as
requiring significantly less fiddling to get really good joints. Maybe the
Leigh I got was somehow defective, but it just never got me the joints I
wanted.
> :)
>
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
Swingman wrote:
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> If you've looked through the archives, you've read of my recent
>> investigation into trying to get gapless dovetails with my D4 (not a D4R)
>> and my decision to replace it with the Akeda jig. If you can get the
>> optional router support for the D4R, that may alleviate part of the
>> problems I was seeing.
>
> Recently did another batch of kitchen drawers with my 7 year old Leigh
> D4 (half blind joints). Biggest problem in batch routing parts in a run
> of 20 or so drawers with the jig is that some of the fingers move apart
> very slightly, but noticeably, over time, with gaps showing up in the
> joins part way through a run if you don't keep a close eye.
>
That was one of the sources of error I identified. In my case, it didn't
take very much for the gaps to start. Another error source is that the
fingers can have a variable gap; i.e., the gap from the pin side to the
tail side is not equal. Like you, I found that swapping the fingers didn't
help much.
> Only those fingers in a particular location see to be the culprits and
> no amount of tightening solves the problem.
>
> Replaced both with unused ones to no avail, so I'm assuming it is an
> issue with the bar they slide on ... perhaps worn from use, or from over
> tightening in the past?
>
> As always, the final product is quite acceptable and a damn sight
> quicker and better than if I did 20 drawers by hand, but it is
> exasperating that absolute consistency in a large run of batch cut
> drawer parts has always been somewhat unattainable using my particular
> Leigh.
I agree that the results are "acceptable"; I was tired of acceptable and
wanted good; that's why I changed.
>
> One or two, or a few drawers, no problems ...
>
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On Sep 23, 7:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:c7b5de35-784e-40ee-a2d0-c2e9e0312543@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > the gap problem might be a worn bushing
>
> > shelloy
>
> Probably not, as he stated that the fingers move.
I understand, but still doubt it. It would take quite a bang (like
dropping it) to bend a finger The impression I got is that he meant
the fingers wiggle - something I don't understand at all.
Besides, if a finger moves wider in one direction then it would close
in the other. I don't think the dovetail would even close at that pont
He might be talking about the "fingers" of the joint itself, in which
case it could be either a worn or flattened bushing, or a setup
problem - wood not clamped down well enough, the side guides working
themselves loose, etc. Maybe even the pressure that he's using on the
template. IIRC, the instructions say to only route along one side of
the finger template
shelly
dpb wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>> If I were again to think of it, I'd far rather do the "more funner"
>>> stuff and pass off the routine repetitive stuff...
>>
>> No thanks ... nothing in your argument is new to me as I've used that
>> rationale on cabinet _doors_ for years, but made the decision a long
>> time ago to draw the line at drawers, and always will.
>>
>> You reach a point where you take away too much of the "by hand" aspect
>> of the work and you end up with the problem Tom Plaman had when he
>> switched to using a CNC on some of his carvings ... he found out
>> quickly it was the "by hand" aspect his clients wanted, not the
>> product of something that was merely a convenience to him.
>
> There's a difference between us on what we think is "funner" then... :)
>
> It's the doors I'd not want to part with...
Different preferences ... I've always had a, well fetish is too strong a
word, liking/attraction for boxes since I was a kid ... even spilling
over to my computer days when I visualized database programming as
dealing with "boxes of data" ... go figure.
That would explain the attraction, drawers being definitely boxlike, of
why I prefer to outsource doors, and not drawers. :)
> I agree wholeheartedly w/ turnings; but I really don't see the
> difference at all on routed dovetail drawers; after all, we're not
> cutting them by hand (and I'm certainly not claiming I _EVER_ did that
> for anything but the one-off piece of actual furniture, not
> kitchen/desk/etc. drawers) so the visual result is the same. Maybe you
> leave some parts laying around in the shop for the visitors... :)
I know what you mean, but even with routed dovetails, the drawers are
obviously done "by hand" ... maybe it's the lousy craftsmanship? :)
Ever notice that folks who are not familiar with hand crafted kitchens
will walk through the Borg and think the KraftMaid kitchens are
beautiful; while those whose eye has gotten used to seeing hand crafted
cabinets will remark that the KraftMaid look "cheap" ... heard that
remarked on countless times from clients.
> But, you're in business yet and doing well and I'm not going to argue;
> only a suggestion...
>
> Meanwhile, I'm tryin' to survive again on the farm and doing only a
> little work for myself other than the extensive outbuilding
> repair/restoration work...
>
> I've thought several times that if were in larger market area, it would
> be fun to have an architectural millworks, but this is too small a
> population base close by and certainly not in current building climate.
> And, given how old I've gotten somehow while not paying attention... :)
Know the feeling ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sep 24, 7:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 23, 7:53 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:c7b5de35-784e-40ee-a2d0-c2e9e0312543@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com..=
.
>
> > > the gap problem might be a worn bushing
>
> > > shelloy
>
> > Probably not, as he stated that the fingers move.
>
> I understand, but still doubt it. It would take quite a bang (like
> dropping it) to bend a finger =A0The impression I got is that he meant
> the fingers wiggle - something I don't understand at all.
>
> Understanding how the "Leigh DT jig" in particular adjusts helps to
> understand the problem? =A0All fingers are infinately adjustable and can =
be
> spaced either directly next to each other or wider apart for wider pins a=
nd
> tails. =A0If a finger moves it basically changes the set up spacing. =A0T=
his
> either creates loose fitting pins and tails with gaps or tighter fitting
> pins and tails that typically are damaged/crushed when fully seated.
again, thanks for the info. I knew that the fingers were adjustable,
had assumed that in a standard dt setup they would all be next to one
another, and hence couldn't flex independently... wrong assumption!
shelly
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote
>> No thanks ... nothing in your argument is new to me as I've used that
>> rationale on cabinet _doors_ for years, but made the decision a long time
>> ago to draw the line at drawers, and always will.
>>
>> You reach a point where you take away too much of the "by hand" aspect of
>> the work and you end up with the problem Tom Plaman had when he switched
>> to using a CNC on some of his carvings ... he found out quickly it was the
>> "by hand" aspect his clients wanted, not the product of something that was
>> merely a convenience to him.
>>
>> My kitchens are not the fanciest, and far from the best out there, but
>> they sell themselves, and, more often then not, a house or two ... and I'm
>> still building them in today's economic climate.
>>
>> --
>
> Would a new (or different brand) dovetail jig be a solution for your
> "creeping fingers" problem? It seems that if this jig did a good job in the
> past, and you are having problems now, it is time for an upgrade of some
> kind. Have you talked to the Leigh people about this?
Hell NO, Lee!! There is NO problem now because this last batch of
drawers are made, installed, the kitchen turned over to the client already!
There is NO problem ... until next time. <g>
And, like I said, I won't have time to deal with it until then.
(but you're right ... I do need to contact Leigh, RSN)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:56:33 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
...
>> Problem is, by the time I get around to the drawers in a kitchen
>> project, I'm already worn out and too damn busy to solve the problem
>> permanently, so just go for the quick fix at the time to get it done.
>>
>> Rest of the time the Leigh sits on a shelf and doesn't get a thought
>> otherwise ... time to do something about it would be now. But I won't
>> hold my breath! :(
>
>
> I would think that you would have a finite number of drawer heights,
> or that you could standardize during the design process. If that is
> so and you wound up with three or four standard drawer heights, I
> wonder if you could get a perfect setup for each and use that to cut a
> solid template out of phenolic/acrylic/aluminum etc.
>
> Probably a rainy morning's worth of fuss but ,once you're done, the
> moving finger problem is gone for good on production runs.
...
It's been _a_long_time_ (tm :) ) since I did production work for pay and
don't intend to return but I'm virtually positive that any more I'd
simply buy drawer boxes rather than hand cut them (even w/ fixed jig).
Just too many competitive choices these days...
--
Swingman wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>> It's been _a_long_time_ (tm :) ) since I did production work for pay
>> and don't intend to return but I'm virtually positive that any more
>> I'd simply buy drawer boxes rather than hand cut them (even w/ fixed
>> jig). Just too many competitive choices these days...
>
> You can indeed get away with that if you use drawer slides that work on
> the "opening less 1"" principle, but try it with under mount slides like
> Hettichs, where the drawer has to be built specifically to the slides
> specs and with close tolerances, and you would be doing nothing but
> creating installation problems that would take far more time to resolve
> than making the drawers themselves.
Many will make whatever you want to whatever sizes you wish...they'll
build to spec; their advantage is they've got the volume to afford the
CNC to allow it that unless you're Morris most ( :) ) don't in
small/mid-production shops.
If I were again to think of it, I'd far rather do the "more funner"
stuff and pass off the routine repetitive stuff...
Last one I used was in Morristown, TN, (before came back to the farm)
but I know there are many others. They got into the widespread custom
business when the furniture manufacturing for which they were supplier
started to disappear from VA/TN/NC/etc. ...
--
Swingman wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>> If I were again to think of it, I'd far rather do the "more funner"
>> stuff and pass off the routine repetitive stuff...
>
> No thanks ... nothing in your argument is new to me as I've used that
> rationale on cabinet _doors_ for years, but made the decision a long
> time ago to draw the line at drawers, and always will.
>
> You reach a point where you take away too much of the "by hand" aspect
> of the work and you end up with the problem Tom Plaman had when he
> switched to using a CNC on some of his carvings ... he found out quickly
> it was the "by hand" aspect his clients wanted, not the product of
> something that was merely a convenience to him.
There's a difference between us on what we think is "funner" then... :)
It's the doors I'd not want to part with...
I agree wholeheartedly w/ turnings; but I really don't see the
difference at all on routed dovetail drawers; after all, we're not
cutting them by hand (and I'm certainly not claiming I _EVER_ did that
for anything but the one-off piece of actual furniture, not
kitchen/desk/etc. drawers) so the visual result is the same. Maybe you
leave some parts laying around in the shop for the visitors... :)
But, you're in business yet and doing well and I'm not going to argue;
only a suggestion...
Meanwhile, I'm tryin' to survive again on the farm and doing only a
little work for myself other than the extensive outbuilding
repair/restoration work...
I've thought several times that if were in larger market area, it would
be fun to have an architectural millworks, but this is too small a
population base close by and certainly not in current building climate.
And, given how old I've gotten somehow while not paying attention... :)
--
Swingman wrote:
...
> Different preferences ... I've always had a, well fetish is too strong a
> word, liking/attraction for boxes since I was a kid ... even spilling
> over to my computer days when I visualized database programming as
> dealing with "boxes of data" ... go figure.
Maybe that difference is why I avoided database programming like the
plague... :)
...
> I know what you mean, but even with routed dovetails, the drawers are
> obviously done "by hand" ... maybe it's the lousy craftsmanship? :)
OK, get them to ship them preassembled and rough up some edges w/ the
block plane and a chisel slip here and there ya' have it:
...voila!--"craftsmanship"!!! <VBG>
> Ever notice that folks who are not familiar with hand crafted kitchens
> will walk through the Borg and think the KraftMaid kitchens are
> beautiful; while those whose eye has gotten used to seeing hand crafted
> cabinets will remark that the KraftMaid look "cheap" ... heard that
> remarked on countless times from clients.
...
Yeah, I do know precisely what you mean. It's been ages so don't have a
recent one, but the pieces returned from the Morristown boys back then
still "looked like" wood despite the precision if you can figure.
On present consideration, probably mostly because I was getting them
returned unfinished and unassembled; if they had one of the catalyzed
finishes they used for the large manufacturers they could well have had
that ugly (to us) plastic/obviously large manufacturer look.
But again, of course, if it's the piece of the pie that's your favorite,
I'm not agonna say nuttin' agin doin' whatcha likes (not that it'd make
any difference anyway... :) ).
--
dpb wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> ...
...
>> I know what you mean, but even with routed dovetails, the drawers are
>> obviously done "by hand" ... maybe it's the lousy craftsmanship? :)
>
> OK, get them to ship them preassembled and rough up some edges w/ the
> block plane and a chisel slip here and there ya' have it:
> ...voila!--"craftsmanship"!!! <VBG>
...
Ooops, lousy craftsmanship there as well--obviously, that was intended
as "unassembled" to make any sense at all; and even then it's only a
very poor attempt at a joke...
--
On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:41:02 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> 6. How does the selection of available bits affect the look of the
>> finished dovetails?
>
>With the Leigh the bits differ in angle and the larger bits are, suited for
>thicker stock.
Only for half blinds. For through dovetails they are all 8 degrees.
The Akeda is the only jig that does different angles for through
dovetails.
-Kevin
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> If you've looked through the archives, you've read of my recent
>> investigation into trying to get gapless dovetails with my D4 (not a D4R)
>> and my decision to replace it with the Akeda jig. If you can get the
>> optional router support for the D4R, that may alleviate part of the
>> problems I was seeing.
>
> Recently did another batch of kitchen drawers with my 7 year old Leigh D4
> (half blind joints). Biggest problem in batch routing parts in a run of 20
> or so drawers with the jig is that some of the fingers move apart very
> slightly, but noticeably, over time, with gaps showing up in the joins
> part way through a run if you don't keep a close eye.
>
> Only those fingers in a particular location see to be the culprits and no
> amount of tightening solves the problem.
>
> Replaced both with unused ones to no avail, so I'm assuming it is an issue
> with the bar they slide on ... perhaps worn from use, or from over
> tightening in the past?
>
> As always, the final product is quite acceptable and a damn sight quicker
> and better than if I did 20 drawers by hand, but it is exasperating that
> absolute consistency in a large run of batch cut drawer parts has always
> been somewhat unattainable using my particular Leigh.
>
> One or two, or a few drawers, no problems ...
Do you have any PSA sand paper? I wonder if you applied some to that bar if
things would stay in place. If you want to consider doing that and don't
have the paper, I can help you out.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Sep 23, 7:53 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:c7b5de35-784e-40ee-a2d0-c2e9e0312543@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> the gap problem might be a worn bushing
>>> shelloy
>> Probably not, as he stated that the fingers move.
>
> I understand, but still doubt it. It would take quite a bang (like
> dropping it) to bend a finger The impression I got is that he meant
> the fingers wiggle - something I don't understand at all.
Leon is correct.
> Besides, if a finger moves wider in one direction then it would close
> in the other.
The fingers in the Leigh D4 are two halves, each tightened separately.
One half can indeed move independently, by design, and this is what is
happening.
> He might be talking about the "fingers" of the joint itself, in which
> case it could be either a worn or flattened bushing, or a setup
> problem - wood not clamped down well enough, the side guides working
> themselves loose, etc. Maybe even the pressure that he's using on the
> template. IIRC, the instructions say to only route along one side of
> the finger template
No noob to the Leigh D4 jig here ... been using one for years, with
literally hundreds of drawers, for lots and lots of kitchens, made on
this particular jig.
Exactly what I stated ... some (two halves, actually) of the fingers on
the jig move during prolonged use(IOW, one half of a finger moves away
from the other half - which half remains stationary is intermittent from
one setup to another)all by their little bitty sorry selves.
The problem has worsened over the years.
What is not known is why fingers, any fingers, in this particular area
of the bar to which they are attached, are prone to movement during
prolonged use ... even when tightened/torqued like all fingers, and even
with locktite on the screws used to tighten them to said bar.
Since replacing the fingers didn't help, and as previously stated, it
sounds like a problem with that particular area of said bar?
Then again, it is possible that I may be just one of the few that have
actually worn a Leigh D4 out!
Next time I do a run, I may try to swap ends, or get Leigh to ship
another bar.
Despite the loosey goosey problem, it still makes nice drawer parts:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00046-20090804-1833.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00045-20090804-1833.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00054-20090807-1820.jpg
... but takes a bit too much time futzing with the problem to get the
desired result for a small production shop, and that's a smaller than
usual run.
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:49:41 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>
>> I would think that you would have a finite number of drawer heights,
>> or that you could standardize during the design process. If that is
>> so and you wound up with three or four standard drawer heights, I
>> wonder if you could get a perfect setup for each and use that to cut a
>> solid template out of phenolic/acrylic/aluminum etc.
>>
>> Probably a rainy morning's worth of fuss but ,once you're done, the
>> moving finger problem is gone for good on production runs.
>
>Sorry, Tom ... got the flu, not thinking clearly, and probably missing
>the point. You mean a setup template for the jig itself?
No Sir: I meant to set up the fingers perfectly and then use them to
create a solid template that would replace the movable fingers for
production runs.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:47:02 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb wrote:
>
>> It's been _a_long_time_ (tm :) ) since I did production work for pay and
>> don't intend to return but I'm virtually positive that any more I'd
>> simply buy drawer boxes rather than hand cut them (even w/ fixed jig).
>> Just too many competitive choices these days...
>
>You can indeed get away with that if you use drawer slides that work on
>the "opening less 1"" principle, but try it with under mount slides like
> Hettichs, where the drawer has to be built specifically to the slides
>specs and with close tolerances, and you would be doing nothing but
>creating installation problems that would take far more time to resolve
>than making the drawers themselves.
Swing: Try these guys. They're the real deal. I've bought a lot
from them in the past. They stay on spec and on time.
http://www.conestogawood.com/
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/