a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.
I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application
I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle
also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose
a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
On 3/10/2015 9:23 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro
>> machines. But they are geared to the committed and commercial
>> applications. I was real close to going with the Laguna TSS with
>> scoring blade. My Jet cabinet saw was only 13 years old but my wife
>> indicated that she would not mind me upgrading to the Industrial
>> SawStop after watching me perform an operation that made her a bit
>> concerned. The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra perks but
>> would have been about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In the
>> end the safety of the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar
>> American style operational set up.
>
> If I move to a more southern state I may sell of the stuff I have, a Jet
> cabinet saw for one, and buy all new stuff... That is a thought I've had
> for the the past couple of years and those thoughts also include going
> Euro... I like things like the riving knives and sliding tables, the
> wide jointer/planer combo machines, Euro style bandsaws...
FWIW most all the new table saws now have riving knives. The one on my
SawStop is very well thought out. Remove the insert, lift the riving
knife/guard lock lever and lift out. Some brands require tools and that
would be a royal PIA. Also Sawstop has recently introduced a sliding
table that fits most everything that they make IIRC.
BUT I still admire the Laguna TS and TSS series table saws. They are
beasts. My top end SawStop is 700lbs but the Laguna TS is 970lbs.
And I will never have to replace my Laguna BS.
>
> My needs have changed over time and having a large jointer and a
> stationary thickness planer doesn't make as much sense as it once did.
> This as I'm no longer trying to joint boards 12'+ long for architectural
> purposes that led me to move up to the big jointer in the first place.
> Now, having a wide jointer combined with an equal sized planer makes
> sense for furniture type projects.
I sell the vast majority of the work that I do and have also steered
away from using a joiner, I sold mine that I seldom used a few years
ago. I pretty much buy S4S lumber now as its price, compared to S2S, is
not that much more considering the time savings and knowing exactly how
much I can expect to get out of a standard sized board. If I buy for me
I will consider S2S and planing it down to 3/4.
I do have a 22/44 drum sander that I use a lot. A lot of my furniture
uses 1/4" thick wood for trim. I resaw 3/4" stock on the BS and then
bring to final thickness with the sander. I am a little leery about
using a 15" stationary planer for taking stock down to that thickness
given it has rollers on the bed.
On 2/25/2015 1:21 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
> "bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
> when management forces the engineers to design to a
> predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
> forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
> unrealistic goal.
>
> John
>
Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.
A major appliance manufacturer called in all of its suppliers. They had
their unit on display as well as a competing unit from Korea. We were
told to reduce the price by 25% or the product would not exist any
longer. Everyone did what they had to do to meet the competition, but
after a few years, China came along and the plant closed down anyway.
Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the tool,
then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look at
how well Harbor Freight is doing.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:21:06 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
>@dont-email.me:
>
>> this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
>> engineering which includes bad choices for materials
>
>As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
>"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
>when management forces the engineers to design to a
>predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
>forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
>unrealistic goal.
>
As an engineer, I'll have to disagree. Engineering is *all* about
cost. It's easy to build a bridge that will stand. It's really hard
to design one that will barely stand. The goals might be unrealistic
or perhaps the engineers aren't quite smart enough. ;-)
On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:08:07 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>
>> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
>> looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
>
>Never had heard of felder or hammer
>they are together now and the products look similar
>
>
>> Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not
>
>Laguna sells direct too
>A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
>who the seller was. Might have been rockler
Laguna sells direct through Amazon. I've been looking. ;-)
>> the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
>> but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
>> Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
>
>That's a lot of bandsaw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
>> toy PU truck.
>>
>> But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.
>>
>
> I've been casually looking at smaller pickups again as I consider whether to
> breath new life into my 94 Silverado or to go back to a toy truck. I may
> just go ahead and get a rolling chassis from down south somewhere and move
> my body and drive line over to a clean chassis, and get another 8-10 years
> out of the old girl for just a couple to a few grand.
>
> Having been looking though, it seems really clear to me that in the toy
> truck market, the Tacoma is the undisputed, hands-down winner - especially
> with the 6 cylinder engine. If I decide to go the route of a newer truck,
> it will be a Tacoma without a doubt.
FWIW I lave been very happy with my 07 Tundra.
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:17:12 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> And there is the rub, ;~) Adjusted right on My Laguna can be a wide
>> range of tolerance. It cuts well at just about any adjustment.
>
> seems to me that there's correct and incorrect adjustment
> you can't have something out of adjustment and have it work
> it stays adjusted or it doesn't
> i haven't adjusted mine since I put the 1/2" on it
>
> you can't say "my saw's out of adjustment and still works fine"
>
Well let's just say that you might have to fine tune to have good results.
I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance one would think
that you would need to tilt the top wheel to correct tracking when using
different tension levels. Increasing tension on my saw does not change
tracking. Basically my saw is not as touchy to get good results.
>
>> investment in my production. With these better tools I can build
>> better and faster.
>
> the time savings for me isn't big enough to justify the expense
Understood.
>
>> And that is not just if the blade will fit, wider blades will fit
>> saws that simply can't handle the tension required. IIRC the Rikon
>> would handle a 1" blade.
>
> no of course it's not just if the blade will fit it is about the
> size of the drivetrain, etc.
The wider blade does not require more power. The thickness and hardness of
the wood has more to do with the drivetrain. The wider blade does require
more tension to insure it runs straight between the top and bottom wheels.
>
>> Probably Inturra Designs
>
> that might be it I have the catalog pdf around somewhere
> an interesting read
Yeah he has a lot of good advise and products.
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:45:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/25/2015 8:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
>>>> better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
>>>> woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
>>>> tools that I have purchased.
>>>
>>> I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
>>> to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
>>> bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon
>>
>> I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
>> 10-351. It won't be soon, though.
>
>If you can test drive each start saving for the Laguna.
The difference is only a couple of hundred bucks. The smaller Lagunas
aren't the same as the spaghetti saws, either. Laguna has a horrible
reputation for service and build quality on the lower end. If
Laguna's reputation weren't in the toilet, I wouldn't consider the
Rikon.
On 2/28/2015 6:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular
>> cab 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for
>> even a choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>
> I agree - it does seem that the short box, extended cab has taken over the
> market.
>
There are basically 3 length boxes. 8', 6' and more recently the 4.5~5'
boxes found on the larger full 4 door models. My Tundra is 4 door but
not the larger full 4 door and it has the 6' bed. While my truck has
plenty of room in the back seat, ask Swingman, it does not have as much
room as the full sized 4 door version. Those, at least the one on the
Tundra have back seats that move forward and backward like the front
seats and let you stretch your legs out.
On 3/1/2015 11:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:49:07 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I really don't think it is a new tool so much as one that is just not
>
> it's new from my perspective for sure
>
>>
>> Anyway the over all stiffness of the saw is important and especially
>> if you use the wider resaw blades. While most saws being sold can
>> handle 1/2" blades with out problems when you start using the wider
>
>
> my saw won't have anything bigger than 1/2" and when it's adjusted
> right it cuts very well
And there is the rub, ;~) Adjusted right on My Laguna can be a wide
range of tolerance. It cuts well at just about any adjustment.
>
>
>> woods. I literally spent more time cleaning bearings, blades, and
>> making adjustments than cutting scraps. The ceramic guides OTOH
>> scrape clean the blades, they are literally self cleaning and I have
>> absolutely no issues that the roller guides introduced. With the
>> Laguna guides the saw has two upper side guides on each side of the
>> blade and two lowers side guides on each side of the blade. Laguna
>> claims that the upper ceramic inserts in the top guide absorb most of
>> the vibration of the blade as it comes off of the top wheel and the
>> lower inserts in the top guide do the actual guiding of the blade to
>> the lower guide assembly.
>
> The introduction of the ceramic guides seems to have been a big
> step in BS evolution
Yes but Laguna did not invent them, they have been around quite a while.
>
>> The price I paid for my Laguna included the ResawKing blade, mobility
>> kit, 4~5 more blades, and shipped.
>
> if my projects can pay for the tool i have no problem with spending
> more for good tools
When I bought my projects were not coming close to paying but my
patience was running out...
It turns out that buying these better tools and equipment are in
investment in my production. With these better tools I can build better
and faster.
>
>> straight on the floor. They finally admitted that they were having
>> issues with their blades working on the Rikon BS's. After getting
>
>
> back to the drawing board for Rikon or keep lowering the price
> or be an also-ran
>
>> Timberwolfs. I highly suspect that the backbone of the Rikon was not
>> up to the task of holding its tension on the wider blades thus
>> creating tracking problems.
>
> bigger blades just don't work on all saws, simple physics
> the saw's got to be built to match the blade size
And that is not just if the blade will fit, wider blades will fit saws
that simply can't handle the tension required. IIRC the Rikon would
handle a 1" blade.
>
> there's a guy that has a entire guide just for dealing with delta
> BS problems
> one of the problems he points out is that parts get bent because
> of over tensioning with blades that are too large for the saw
Exactly, as I mentioned above.
>
>
> From somewhere I read about the delta BS guy but I can't recall
> his name now
> he has no website and you have to call him to get the guide
Probably Inturra Designs
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:48:51 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>...
>
>> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
>> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
>> part, if not more.
>
>Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
>was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
>the weight reduction.
Exactly. Ford didn't put an aluminum hood on my wife's car to save
money and the aluminum F150 isn't a cost reduction either. I work in
the automotive electronics industry. Even the electronics is under
pressure to save weight. Grams count.
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>i lose and they lose
I've owned 8 Jet stationary tools and still have 5 of them... 3 were
upgraded to larger machines. They've all been good, serviceable, and
reliable machines. The only real problem I had was the magnetic switch on
the cabinet saw failed after about 8 years--cleaning it didn't help. The
other things were all consumables or maintenance items (e.g., blades,
bandsaw tire). I'd buy Jet again.
John
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>
>> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
>> looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
>
> Never had heard of felder or hammer
> they are together now and the products look similar
Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
some of Jet andPowermatic products.
>
>
>> Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not
>
> Laguna sells direct too
> A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
> who the seller was. Might have been rockler
When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from Laguna.
I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more perks and or
blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email list they will let
you know when tools go on sale or have a demo sale.
>
>> the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
>> but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
>> Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
>
> That's a lot of bandsaw
"Leon" wrote:
>> The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
>> a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
-------------------------------------
One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
toy PU truck.
But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.
Lew
On 2/27/2015 3:36 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 4:25 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/27/2015 4:22 PM, dpb wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
>>> occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
>>> rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans to
>>> the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as far
>>> as the usage they get.
>>
>> Oh, and to finish the relationship to bedlength: because most are
>> purchased/used such a way, it's the shorter wheelbase that is more
>> important and so a very high fraction are, if not the shortest,
>> certainly <8'.
>
> And, just one other observation re: shortbeds -- even the oil companies
> for the pumpers and well-checkers are buying shortbeds now because they
> aren't hauling stuff other than some individual tools/instrumentation.
> The get hard use, granted, for them the are using the truck for road
> clearance and the mud/sand traction more than for hauling. A lot of
> them out here have been converted to CNG so what bed there is is half or
> more taken up w/ the tank, anyway.
>
> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular cab
> 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
> choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>
> --
I have a 2009 F250 Lariat Supercab 4X4 w/8' bed that's for sale. I no
longer have need for 4X4 or F250. It has 18,000 miles on it.
On 02/27/2015 05:07 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>
> Around here you see a lot of the 4 door, extra-short bed
> trucks because people use them to pull boats. An SUV
> would be more practical, but the pickups are cheaper.
>
> OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
> wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
> and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
> Purely for show.
>
> John
>
My long bed Duramax regular cab (no duallie cause it wouldn't fit in the
gar^H^H^Hshop) is ideal for towing our 5th wheel. We spend about 4
months a year for the last 8 years seeing our beautiful country. The
long bed has a lot of advantages when towing a 5th wheel as well as
hauling sheet goods and lumber.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 02/27/2015 05:48 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 5:23 PM, Max wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular cab
>>> 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
>>> choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>>>
> ...
>
>> I have a 2009 F250 Lariat Supercab 4X4 w/8' bed that's for sale. I no
>> longer have need for 4X4 or F250. It has 18,000 miles on it.
>
> Don't know Ford nomenclature; what's the "Supercab", specifically?
>
> Where is it located?
>
> --
>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+supercab&client=ubuntu&hs=kHs&channel=fs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0xHxVLrcO8OPyASA3oHwDA&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1382&bih=658>
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 2/27/2015 5:48 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 5:23 PM, Max wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular cab
>>> 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
>>> choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>>>
> ...
>
>> I have a 2009 F250 Lariat Supercab 4X4 w/8' bed that's for sale. I no
>> longer have need for 4X4 or F250. It has 18,000 miles on it.
>
> Don't know Ford nomenclature; what's the "Supercab", specifically?
>
> Where is it located?
>
> --
>
I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
On 2/27/2015 6:07 PM, Max wrote:
> On 2/27/2015 5:48 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/27/2015 5:23 PM, Max wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular
>>>> cab
>>>> 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
>>>> choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>>>>
>> ...
>>
>>> I have a 2009 F250 Lariat Supercab 4X4 w/8' bed that's for sale. I no
>>> longer have need for 4X4 or F250. It has 18,000 miles on it.
>>
>> Don't know Ford nomenclature; what's the "Supercab", specifically?
>>
>> Where is it located?
>>
>> --
>>
>
> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>
>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
"-MIKE-" wrote:
> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
> home they are still dry. :-)
> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
> rack. It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had
> about a dozen treated 2x10s up there.
----------------------------------------------
SFWIW, I moved up from a VW Diesel Rabbit to a Tonka Toy Tacoma,
4 Cyl, 5 Spd manual tranny with a Snug Top cover, I basically got a
bigger trunk space along with a steel timing chain.
Had 4 ply, 4x8, cdx delivered 70 shts at a crack.
Thank heavens for Towmotors.
Same for 4x8 shts of Divinycell (engineered foam).
The few odd shts of 4x8 goods were no problem with the tail gate up
which meant 60x60 cabinet birch were a piece of cake.
8 ft stick goods were no problem, even with the tail gate left up.
Add a red flag just to CYA.
I must admit that bringing some 2' x 4' x 20 ft sticks from Home Depot
to
the boat yard was an interesting challenge but Sunday afternoon was
a help.
These days the aft space being sealed from the elements hauls mostly
groceries and a few incidentals from the big box stores.
Lew
On 02/27/2015 08:08 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:54f10d0a$0$4493
> [email protected]:
>
>> The
>> long bed has a lot of advantages when towing a 5th wheel as well as
>> hauling sheet goods and lumber.
>
> Yeah, good point. The extra wheelbase helps pulling any kind
> of a trailer, because it adds more resistance to the trailer
> pushing the truck around.
>
> John
>
Big difference between a 5th wheel and a trailer. Never had the 5th
wheel doing any of the "pushing around" thing.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 02/27/2015 10:06 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 08:08 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:54f10d0a$0$4493
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> The
>>> long bed has a lot of advantages when towing a 5th wheel as well as
>>> hauling sheet goods and lumber.
>>
>> Yeah, good point. The extra wheelbase helps pulling any kind
>> of a trailer, because it adds more resistance to the trailer
>> pushing the truck around.
>>
>> John
>>
> Big difference between a 5th wheel and a trailer. Never had the 5th
> wheel doing any of the "pushing around" thing.
>
>
...and no need to worry about tearing up the cab with the long box when
making a sharp turn and no need for a sliding hitch.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:VZWdnTUgKfDikWzJnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:
>
> No, I NEED that After all, I pick up a few potted plants for the wife
> and a bag of fertilizer for the lawn.
>
> I have to laugh at some of the owners. Do they ever wonder how Europe
> got built using those small trucks?
Oh I know! *raises hand excitedly and jumps* I know! I know!
They used under-powered Kias* to pull caravans to and from the jobsite!
*Caravaner club's towcar of the year
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
> home they are still dry. :-)
> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
> rack.
> It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had about
> a
> dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>
I borrowed my step father's minivan (it has a cargo rack) to bring some
some 16' gutters. That worked really nice.
Once, though, I brought home a 2x10 that was 14' long. (Different van.)
With no cargo rack, I had to put it in the cabin. We had to cut 2' off a
16' board, as that was just too tipsy.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 2/28/2015 7:31 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> On a 2009 picture.
>
> On 2/28/2015 8:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 2/28/2015 8:29 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 02/27/2015 7:23 PM, Max wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
>>>>> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
>>>
>>> Nice-lookin' truck; El Paso is a long ways away, unfortunately...
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> That would depend on the price.
I keep it " garaged", Martin. It still looks the same. :-)
I love the truck, I just don't need that much truck anymore and we want
a Toyota Highlander. "Downsizing".
On 3/1/2015 7:55 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/28/2015 7:29 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/27/2015 7:23 PM, Max wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
>>>> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
>>
>> Nice-lookin' truck; El Paso is a long ways away, unfortunately...
>
> Actually, we'll be making a fair chunk of that distance (as far as
> Albuquerque before heading on west) soon...perhaps should
> consult/discuss off-line. My email is dpb[ozarth] at the domain
> swko<dot>net. Remove obvious punctuation...
>
> On the return leg it might be possible to swing on south altho hadn't
> really considered it, it is a pleasure trip of no great pre-ordained
> duration nor destination other than the first objective for which have
> commitments so couldn't head your way going.
>
I have a couple offers here already. But if nothing develops I'll let
you know.
On 3/1/2015 10:06 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 03/01/2015 9:25 AM, Max wrote:
> ...
>
>> I have a couple offers here already. But if nothing develops I'll let
>> you know.
>
> Yeah, that's a large-enough population center wouldn't think you'd have
> much trouble...if it weren't 9 hr or so from here...when brother was in
> Midland years ago folks went down there and then Dad thought he'd like
> to see the Big Bend country. Story I heard was they started out and
> after driving for 4 hr or so decided to turn around instead... :)
>
> --
LOL. 205 miles from Midland to Big Bend. 300 miles from El Paso.
For the past 20 years, at least, every vehicle I've sold has gone to
someone I know. And usually the story goes, "Gee, Max that's kinda high,
but I'll let you know". And they end up buying. I do all my own
preventive maintenance and minor repairs and folks who know me know
they'll get a good vehicle.
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
> working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.
> Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
> price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the
> tool,
> then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look
> at
> how well Harbor Freight is doing.
-------------------------------------------------
<[email protected]> wrote:
Right there with you, Ed. Couldn't agree more. When I started in the
trades back in the early 70s, tools were good enough to rebuild.
Using them all day, we simply wore out hand power tools and their
parts. So we put in triggers, bearing, brushes, etc., as a regular
part of the tool owning experience.
<snip>
----------------------------------------------------
During the early '60s, I worked on devices that got mounted on
the engines of military vehicles.
The performance specification was straight forward.
500 hours of performanc life with ZERO, ZIP failures.
If the device survived 500.001 hours and then died, that
was acceptable.
The reason the performance spec was written as stated was
simple.
Hit the beach with 100 new trucks and the enemy destroys
10-20 of them in the first 10 hours of battle, and renders another
50 of them inoperable without a rebuild facility to make repairs
which is highly unlikely on the battlefield.
Turns out the lowest cost to the military is to have new spare
devices available to be used when the opportunity presents itself.
It's a case starting with a 100% operating device and using it until
it fails, then scrap the device and start with another new device.
No attempt is made to rebuild what is basically a throw away item.
Another example of a throw away device is the printed circuit board
populated with poorest tolerance components as possible except for
a single resistor and a capacitor which are the tightest tolerance
devices available.
The populated boards are then tested to determine the resistor
and capacitor values to classify the board assembly as a tight
tolerance device.
From a manufacting point of view, it's the best of all worlds.
Low cost, wide tolerance components are used for at least 90%
of the of the devices while high cost, tight tolerance devices
allow a low cost, high performance boards to be delivered to
the market.
There is no way to repair a board like this in the field which is
why a replacement board assembly is routinely sold for about
60% of a new device along with the old board ass'y.
I'm afraid the days of being able to make repairs, even simple
ones to rebuild a tool in the field are quickly becoming history
from another era.
Lew
On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 1:18:13 PM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone=20
> working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.
> Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but=20
> price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the tool,=20
> then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look at=
=20
> how well Harbor Freight is doing.
Right there with you, Ed. Couldn't agree more. When I started in the trad=
es back in the early 70s, tools were good enough to rebuild. Using them al=
l day, we simply wore out hand power tools and their parts. So we put in t=
riggers, bearing, brushes, etc., as a regular part of the tool owning exper=
ience.
Many of the old tool names that were on the tools I used to love were bough=
t by investment groups, not tool makers back in the 80s. The powers that b=
e at those companies only sought to maximize their profits, not caring abou=
t the tools, nor understanding their importance to the craftsman, tradesman=
, or any other end user that valued a good tool. For all those companies c=
ared, they were simply manufacturing widgets, and applied their college eds=
as they had been taught.
Now, unless it is a stationary tool all tools to me are a balance of tool l=
ife to longevity. About ten years ago I took my favorite Milwaukee circula=
r saw in (at that time about 25 years old) for a new cord, bearings and a "=
tightening up". The bench fee was $65, the bearings were $35, the cord was=
$18, and the clean and lube was another $25. I was stunned and found that=
the newest replacement model for that saw was $125 at HD.
I commented to the guy at the counter as I was getting my saw (no repairs..=
.) that I was glad the trigger didn't go out. So just for fun, he looked i=
t up. The "heavy duty" trigger was $49, and still carried the same bench f=
ee ($65) as any process.
So I bought a Makita at HD, and it is a great saw. But now as before, if so=
mething breaks or wear out, it will be prohibitive to have it fixed. =20
Years ago I always bought from our local supply house as they stocked acces=
sories for the tools they sold, some parts, and had someone that could diag=
nose your problem if a tool "quit working". We haven't had anyone like tha=
t years here.
I would gladly pay more for a tool of there was a quality company standing =
behind it and I got good utility value from the tool. Now they all seem to=
be varying degrees of just junk to pretty good until you get up in the Fes=
tool, Metabo, Lamello, etc., range. I buy the Bosch, Ridgid, DeWalt, etc.,=
and depending on what goes wrong and how long it lasted, probably toss the=
m after they break.
I feel like I am like a lot of folks that are getting the short end of the =
stick because of consumer habits. I have no more local support for my tool=
s or for parts as Amazon, ebay, etc. put them out of business long before H=
F came on the scene. At one time, you could save 30% by buying online, so =
off most went to their computers. I have no selection for better tools as =
no one can afford to keep a showroom since folks will do as you said, try o=
ut a tool, handle and inspect it and then go home and purchase it. I have =
seen many, many times at the Woodcraft demos where folks go and use the too=
ls they are interested in, then go to Amazon or other places to buy their t=
ool after using one for a few hours at WC.
Folks always brag about the low prices they pay on things, but then if you =
need any backup or support, many times you find out how little that price d=
ifferential was actually worth. I would gladly pay more for a quality tool=
backed by good service.
On the other hand, the black eye isn't all on us consumers. About 3 years =
ago I bought a Ridgid branded 12v drill package. Two identical drills, a c=
harger, and two batteries for a promotional price. Lifetime warranty on th=
e drills and batteries, one year on the charger. I went through the scrupu=
lous registration process and got the drills registered.
Last Monday I took the drills in as the batteries had died. In about 3 wee=
ks I will need them to drill and mount about 60 hinges and installs new dra=
wer hardware at the house I am working on. The guy at the counter told me =
he was "the tool guy" and would evaluate them. It could take (he told me) =
about a month for him to get to their assessment. If he found the batterie=
s to be dead and non revivable, then he would send them to the Ridgid servi=
ce center, so add in another 10 days for packing, transit, and receiving. =
So now we are at six weeks. =20
They told me at the service center that their normal turn around on any too=
l (unless it needed an extensive rebuild) was about a month. So now good s=
ir, the replacement of two dead batteries (which were determined dead by th=
e tool guy when I brought them in, he was just wanting to do additional tes=
ting to "make sure") is at best guess... 2 1/2 to 3 months.
What professional can have a duty tool offline for a quarter of the work ye=
ar?
Further, I was informed and signed a document at the time I turned the tool=
s over that said that Ridgid/HD has the sole power to determine of the tool=
was simply worked until the end of its life, abused, broken due to acciden=
t, used incorrectly (drilling 2" holes in yellow pine all day with the 12v =
drill), not stored or taken care of properly, used for a task other than wh=
ich it was specifically designed to do, or neglected in any way they determ=
ine is detrimental to the tool. Any of the aforementioned conditions could=
and probably would lead to denial of the warranty.
So now what do I do? I don't even know if they are going to honor their wa=
rranty... I need the drills in a couple of weeks and probably won't have wo=
rd by then on what they are going to do. =20
In reality, I will probably go buy a cheaper drill and use it for the job, =
then until it breaks. At this point, I see little point in paying any prem=
ium for a working class tool. At this point (at least with Ridgid) I feel l=
ike I am playing a game with them, one I just might lose. I don't have the=
time for all that dancing around and I need my drills. With that in mind =
and at the cost of rebuilding my tools, I almost always look for cheaper al=
ernatives for the job site these days.
Robert
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>
>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>> so far it seems to be fine
>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>> for this application
>>
>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>
>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>> stripped.
>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>> handle
>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>
>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>> as the original handle
>>
>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>
>>
>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>> i lose and they lose
>>
>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>
>
>I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>have purchased.
I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.
>Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
>replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
>competitive brand.
>
>
>
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 21:12:19 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:48:51 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>...
>>
>>> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
>>> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
>>> part, if not more.
>>
>>Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
>>was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
>>the weight reduction.
>
>Exactly. Ford didn't put an aluminum hood on my wife's car to save
>money and the aluminum F150 isn't a cost reduction either. I work in
>the automotive electronics industry. Even the electronics is under
>pressure to save weight. Grams count.
MSRP on a 2015 4x4 Crew cab $50,000 and a regular cab at about 40
grand. But they were having a sale so you don't have to pay full
price.
On 3/10/2015 10:50 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
>> think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
>> 70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
>> Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.
>
> how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
> some companies get out there better than others
> I guess I'm a marketing victim
In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc
Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more prominent
in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww magazines. Laguna is
not new but relative new compared to most of the brands that I have
mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the northern Europe area and
came to live in California. He loved surfing at Laguna beach and
apparently named the company accordingly. He wanted to introduce
European machines to the USA lower end consumers, not just at comercial
applications.
>
> the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
> has to get better to get in front of people
Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the general
public until they started offering through retailers and offering Asian
versions.
>
>
>> When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
>> Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
>> perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
>> list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
>> sale.
>
> good to know
> am on the list but not ready to buy
>
> I wonder how their moving sale went?
On 2/27/2015 12:49 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:35:12 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>
>> Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
>
> I heard laguna resharpen these blades and the blades are not cheap
> but they do things that cannot be done with other bandsaw/blade combos
The Resaw King is a b-metal blade, although not carbide. The blade is
indeed expensive and but can be resharpened by Laguna. I only use mine
on special occasions when I want maximum yield on veneers. I can't say
if there is another blade or not that cuts as well as the Resaw King
>
>> blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through
>> the pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.
>
> worthless as a conventional veneer but useful for other things
>
>> Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
>> Probably 30+ years
>
> but I'd still never heard of them, wish i had though
A pretty much direct competitor to Laguna is MiniMax. I considered that
saw also but had issues with the home office/showroom floor when I made
an appointment to see a particular saw and traveled 180 miles to do so.
The day before the appointment they had the saw, the next day when I
arrived they had a cannibalized model.
>
>
>> Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
>> they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good
>> stuff is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.
>
> Ok but the designs are still significant and standout
They do from the Laguna Exclusive guides and perhaps the Baldor motors
but they do resemble a few other Italian made BS's that all come from
the same factory. But yes it was the specific differences that sold me.
>
> regarding rikon I don't know them either but giving a quick look
> it looks just like all the other players where as the laguna
> bandsaws really standout, the ceramic guides as you pointed out,
> etc.
>
> I was amazed what the guy was doing with a bandsaw, I think it
> was a video for the fence system but still was something I didn't
> know could be done with a bandsaw
Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as the
Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was building a
nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make all of the
cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no guides... He demoed
cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides removed.
This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in expense to get
a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that the saw is sound
enough to hold its settings and not have to be tweaked regularly.
On 2/27/2015 1:45 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/27/2015 12:49 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:35:12 -0600
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
>>
>> I heard laguna resharpen these blades and the blades are not cheap
>> but they do things that cannot be done with other bandsaw/blade combos
>
> The Resaw King is a b-metal blade, although not carbide. The blade is
> indeed expensive and but can be resharpened by Laguna. I only use mine
> on special occasions when I want maximum yield on veneers. I can't say
> if there is another blade or not that cuts as well as the Resaw King
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through
>>> the pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.
>>
>> worthless as a conventional veneer but useful for other things
>>
>>> Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
>>> Probably 30+ years
>>
>> but I'd still never heard of them, wish i had though
>
> A pretty much direct competitor to Laguna is MiniMax. I considered that
> saw also but had issues with the home office/showroom floor when I made
> an appointment to see a particular saw and traveled 180 miles to do so.
> The day before the appointment they had the saw, the next day when I
> arrived they had a cannibalized model.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
>>> they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good
>>> stuff is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.
>>
>> Ok but the designs are still significant and standout
>
> They do from the Laguna Exclusive guides and perhaps the Baldor motors
> but they do resemble a few other Italian made BS's that all come from
> the same factory. But yes it was the specific differences that sold me.
>
>
>
>>
>> regarding rikon I don't know them either but giving a quick look
>> it looks just like all the other players where as the laguna
>> bandsaws really standout, the ceramic guides as you pointed out,
>> etc.
>>
>> I was amazed what the guy was doing with a bandsaw, I think it
>> was a video for the fence system but still was something I didn't
>> know could be done with a bandsaw
>
> Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as the
> Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was building a
> nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make all of the
> cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no guides... He demoed
> cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides removed.
> This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in expense to get
> a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that the saw is sound
> enough to hold its settings and not have to be tweaked regularly.
FWIW here are a couple of pictures of a piece of red oak that I resawed
with a common 1/2" blade on the Laguna.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/16045460183/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/16477811218/in/photostream/
On 3/1/2015 7:12 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
>> a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
>
> any saw has to be adjusted
> there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
> they require something
>
> some take more adjustment
> some need readjustment from time to time
> some don't
>
> pretty simple
Well actually the MiniMax rep swapped blades on the MM16, the demo saw
that had no guides at all. All he had to do was retention the blade
after changing it, and that was a single adjustment before he restarted
the saw. Not totally unlike changing out a blade on a TS. Until you
have actually worked with a saw of this caliber it is hard to understand
how well they work.
Sure you have to tension the blade but I use the built in gauge and that
is good enough and you do have to adjust the guides to the width of the
blade but tracking and blade tension is simply not a factor in the saw
performing well.
And while this is an adjustment it is a simple adjustment that requires
no test cuts or tweaking.
On 3/1/2015 3:56 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/1/2015 10:54 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> There are basically 3 length boxes. 8', 6' and more recently the 4.5~5'
>> boxes found on the larger full 4 door models. My Tundra is 4 door but
>> not the larger full 4 door and it has the 6' bed. While my truck has
>> plenty of room in the back seat, ask Swingman, it does not have as much
>> room as the full sized 4 door version. Those, at least the one on the
>> Tundra have back seats that move forward and backward like the front
>> seats and let you stretch your legs out.
>
> Some guys have all the luck. They get the truck, the saw(s), and the cook.
>
And some have the first two and the musician! ;~)
On 2/25/2015 8:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>>>>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>>>>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>>>>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>>>>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>>>>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>>>>>> for this application
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>>>>>> stripped.
>>>>>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>>>>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>>>>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>>>>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>>>>>> as the original handle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>>>>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>>>>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>>>>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>>>>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>>>>>> i lose and they lose
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>>>>>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>>>>>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>>>>>> have purchased.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
>>>>> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
>>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
>>>> time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
>>>> trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
>>>> While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
>>>> IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
>>>> the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
>>>> that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
>>>> supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
>>>> had a broken trunnion.
>>>
>>> I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
>>> been great (wish I could play with it).
>>>
>>>> That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
>>>> owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
>>>> the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
>>>> roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
>>>> had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
>>>> even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
>>>> replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
>>>
>>> The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
>>> capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
>>> $3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
>>> represent income, rather outgo.
>>>
>>> When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
>>> Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
>>> out about that time and I bought it instead.
>>
>> I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
>> loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
>> expensive piece of equipment.
>
> I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
> I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
> (three pulleys).
I hear you.... I did upgrade to the link belts for considerably less
vibration but a bit more noise on higher speeds.
>>>
>>>> Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
>>>> fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
>>>> Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
>>>> Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
>>>> those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
>>>>
>>>> And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
>>>> prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
>>>> I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
>>>> in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
>>>> Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
>>>> too but still north of $3K.
>>>
>>> Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
>>> the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
>>> Unisaws under $1000?
>>
>> No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
>> the $2500~$2700 range.
>
>
> Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
> when they came out.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
>>>> blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
>>>> of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>>>>
>>> Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)
>>>
>> I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.
>>
> WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
> the bars. ;-)
>
That is how I started out.....and then a hobby turned into more.
On 2/28/2015 8:43 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:20:04 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> FWIW here are a couple of pictures of a piece of red oak that I
>> resawed with a common 1/2" blade on the Laguna.
>
> Nice cuts, like i said i was surprised to learn that could be done
> with a bandsaw
>
> with that kind of precision it really is a new tool and leaves
> the previous designs in the dust
I really don't think it is a new tool so much as one that is just not on
the typical woodworkers radar. Some of these Italian companies have
been building saws for close to 90 years. These Italian saws are
extremely stout and have a lot of mass. Not totally unlike comparing a
contractors TS to and industrial cabinet saw. Very little vibration out
of the HD saws so cuts are better.
Anyway the over all stiffness of the saw is important and especially if
you use the wider resaw blades. While most saws being sold can handle
1/2" blades with out problems when you start using the wider blades you
really have to crank the tension up. One of my blades is 1.25" wide and
a non HD saw is going to give to that tension and will not hold that
tension well. One of the reasons that constant tweaking from day to day
or hour to hour is necessary. If the back bone gives to the tension the
guides are going to be out of adjustment, tracking can be off, and
tensioning has to be closely monitored. I relatively never have to
readjust anything unless I change blades. Tracking is almost never
readjusted regardless of blade size or tension.
IMHO the Laguna guides are the best. While there is a lot going on with
the Carter roller bearing guides, roller bearing guides are not not
exclusive to Carter. As you probably know the Rikon has roller bearing
guides and when I bought my 18" Rokin I thought that this all made
sense. On paper the roller bearing guides look great! In reality, for
me, they were a nightmare. FWIW my Rikon was the second generation
version of the 18" saw. I found that if I was cutting oily woods and or
wet woods the saw dust would stick to the bearings and or blade and
would be "pounded" on to the blade and bearings. The noise and
vibration went up considerably when cutting these woods. I literally
spent more time cleaning bearings, blades, and making adjustments than
cutting scraps. The ceramic guides OTOH scrape clean the blades, they
are literally self cleaning and I have absolutely no issues that the
roller guides introduced. With the Laguna guides the saw has two upper
side guides on each side of the blade and two lowers side guides on each
side of the blade. Laguna claims that the upper ceramic inserts in the
top guide absorb most of the vibration of the blade as it comes off of
the top wheel and the lower inserts in the top guide do the actual
guiding of the blade to the lower guide assembly.
Anyway I went through all of this about 8 years ago when upgrading from
a small Craftsman saw that I never used because of all the tweaking that
was always necessary. I though I was going to eliminate that with the
bigger Rikon but was totally dissatisfied. I bought that Rikon sight
unseen so I bought it with the understanding that if it was not up to my
expectations that I could return it, and that I did within 2 weeks. So
at 2.5 times more expensive than the Rikon, at the time, and I had my
Laguna and I highly recommend one of these Italian built saws if you
want to spend more time cutting wood than repeatedly setting up and
tweaking the saw.
The price I paid for my Laguna included the ResawKing blade, mobility
kit, 4~5 more blades, and shipped.
One last thing, I originally ordered 3 or 4 Timberwolf blades for the
Rikon. I had tracking issues with all but one. The blade that came
with the Rikon tracked just fine as did a blade that I had make by a
local supplier. Timberwolf bent over backwards to solve the issues
including having me cut one of the blades to insure that it laid
straight on the floor. They finally admitted that they were having
issues with their blades working on the Rikon BS's. After getting the
Laguna they graciously gave me credit for the blades that fit the Rikon
and I bought the same but longer blades for the Laguna. I have not had
any problems with any blades that I have used on the Laguna be it the
ResawKing, the generic brands I have used, or the Timberwolfs.
I highly suspect that the backbone of the Rikon was not up to the task
of holding its tension on the wider blades thus creating tracking problems.
On 2/25/2015 4:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
>> Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
>> and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
>> compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
>> little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
>> tracks perfectly.
>
> the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna
Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through the
pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.
> I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff
Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
Probably 30+ years
>
> my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
> manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
> strategy
Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good stuff
is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.
>
> btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
> in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.
>
>
Yes Laguna are moving. '~)
On 2/25/2015 7:35 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/25/2015 4:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
>>> Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
>>> and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
>>> compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
>>> little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
>>> tracks perfectly.
>>
>> the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna
> Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
> blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through the
> pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.
>
>
>> I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff
>
> Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
> Probably 30+ years
>
>
>>
>> my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
>> manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
>> strategy
>
> Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
> they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good stuff
> is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.
>
>
>
>>
>> btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
>> in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.
>>
>>
> Yes Laguna are moving. '~)
>
FWIW the Laguna BS 10 point ceramic guides sold me, they are great.
On 2/25/2015 8:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
>>> better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
>>> woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
>>> tools that I have purchased.
>>
>> I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
>> to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
>> bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon
>
> I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
> 10-351. It won't be soon, though.
If you can test drive each start saving for the Laguna.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro machines.
>But they are geared to the committed and commercial applications. I was
>real close to going with the Laguna TSS with scoring blade. My Jet cabinet
>saw was only 13 years old but my wife indicated that she would not mind me
>upgrading to the Industrial SawStop after watching me perform an operation
>that made her a bit concerned. The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra
>perks but would have been about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In
>the end the safety of the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar
>American style operational set up.
If I move to a more southern state I may sell of the stuff I have, a Jet
cabinet saw for one, and buy all new stuff... That is a thought I've had for
the the past couple of years and those thoughts also include going Euro... I
like things like the riving knives and sliding tables, the wide
jointer/planer combo machines, Euro style bandsaws...
My needs have changed over time and having a large jointer and a stationary
thickness planer doesn't make as much sense as it once did. This as I'm no
longer trying to joint boards 12'+ long for architectural purposes that led
me to move up to the big jointer in the first place. Now, having a wide
jointer combined with an equal sized planer makes sense for furniture type
projects.
On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>>>> for this application
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>>>
>>>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>>>> stripped.
>>>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>>>> handle
>>>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>>>
>>>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>>>> as the original handle
>>>>>
>>>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>>>> i lose and they lose
>>>>>
>>>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>>>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>>>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>>>> have purchased.
>>>
>>> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
>>> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
>>> though.
>>
>> I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
>> time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
>> trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
>> While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
>> IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
>> the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
>> that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
>> supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
>> had a broken trunnion.
>
> I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
> been great (wish I could play with it).
>
>> That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
>> owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
>> the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
>> roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
>> had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
>> even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
>> replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
>
> The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
> capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
> $3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
> represent income, rather outgo.
>
> When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
> Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
> out about that time and I bought it instead.
I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
expensive piece of equipment.
>
>> Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
>> fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
>> Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
>> Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
>> those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
>>
>> And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
>> prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
>> I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
>> in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
>> Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
>> too but still north of $3K.
>
> Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
> the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
> Unisaws under $1000?
No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
the $2500~$2700 range.
>
>> Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
>> blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
>> of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>>
> Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)
>
I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.
On 2/25/2015 11:13 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
>> better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
>> woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
>> tools that I have purchased.
>
> I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
> to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
> bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon
FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18" Rikon
to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week and
returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman compared to
the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very little tweaking
needs to be done with blade size changes. And it tracks perfectly.
On 3/10/2015 8:13 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:44:49 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>>
>> In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
>> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc
>
> I went to exactly 1 woodworking show and subscribed to exactly 0
> woodworking magazines
> the show was ok, a guy was scared and turning a 5 foot bowl
> maybe from the club local to the venue and picked the short straw
> or better yet came up with the idea and volunteered simultaneously
Well there you have it. ;~) You typically don't see the upper end
commercial grade machines in the typical ww store, there you mostly see
consumer grade.
>
> and now you mention kiti another I haven't heard of.
That one is scarce. I don't recall seeing that one in the last 30 or so
years.
FWIW I haven't seen any of the heavy duty machines at the Houston WW
shows in years. "The WoodWorking Shows" tour has sucked for the past
5~6 years. They pissed off most of the vendors when they moved from the
centrally located Houston location, near the Astrodome, to the out
laying small towns of Katy and Conroe. I have probably gone to my last
show unless they go back to Houston. I swear the last show was held in
a love stock shelter. 10 Plus years ago every brand you could think of
was well represented.
>
>
>>
>> Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more
>> prominent in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww
>> magazines. Laguna is not new but relative new compared to most of
>
> I make choices quickly some times and not others. I think jet
> get out there in front of people
>
>
>> the brands that I have mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the
>> northern Europe area and came to live in California. He loved
>> surfing at Laguna beach and apparently named the company
>> accordingly. He wanted to introduce European machines to the USA
>> lower end consumers, not just at comercial applications.
>
> Seems to have been a good idea.
>
>>
>> Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
>> different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the
>> general public until they started offering through retailers and
>> offering Asian versions.
>
> laguna has some high-end CNC stuff and I don't even remember how I
> heard about laguna, may have been amazon
Laguna absolutely has high end stuff. On their web site you look under
the Industrial tab for the machines that are going to out last you.
Under the Dealer Exclusive tab there are decent tools but on par with
all the brands manufactured in Asia. Dealer exclusive is more geared
towards the first time buyer of a particular type machine. Industrial
is geared toward those that are tired of replacing machines.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>Thank you John that is basically what I was trying to say. ;~)
>The fussier the saw the pickier the adjustment has to be.
I don't know what others have experienced but my 18" Jet is not fussy...
with some minor tweaking of the tracking when installing a new blade the
drift is zero. It's been a pleasure to work with. If I ever get to it I
can mill bolts and short logs on my 36" 5 HP Crescent... the funny thing is
I haven't really needed that saw to date but it's cool! LOL
On 2/27/2015 9:20 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:45:35 -0600
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> The Resaw King is a b-metal blade, although not carbide. The blade
>> is indeed expensive and but can be resharpened by Laguna. I only use
>
>
> they have a limit on the number of resharpens but it's 10 or so
> and that would last a long time unless the blade's abused and needed
> more sharpenings
>
>>
>> A pretty much direct competitor to Laguna is MiniMax. I considered
>> that saw also but had issues with the home office/showroom floor when
>> I made an appointment to see a particular saw and traveled 180 miles
>> to do so. The day before the appointment they had the saw, the next
>> day when I arrived they had a cannibalized model.
>
> but that alone can't have swayed you entirely
Well that alone showed me what they thought about customer service.
They knew what BS I was coming to see and indicated that so and so would
show me that saw the following morning. and then that saw was missing
its guides.
Ultimately the 10 point ceramic guides that Laguna developed was the
deal maker, and probably the Baldor motor.
>
> have not heard of minimax either will have to look
>
>
>>
>> They do from the Laguna Exclusive guides and perhaps the Baldor
>> motors but they do resemble a few other Italian made BS's that all
>> come from the same factory. But yes it was the specific differences
>> that sold me.
>
> I see, can italian made BSs be bought in US?
Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
I would say that all of the above except the MiniMax are probably built
in the same Italian Factory, all being similar. The MiniMax is
significantly different.
>
>>
>> Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as
>> the Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was
>> building a nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make
>> all of the cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no
>> guides... He demoed cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides
>> removed. This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in
>> expense to get a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that
>> the saw is sound enough to hold its settings and not have to be
>> tweaked regularly.
>
> makes sense but it also means a lot of engineering has to go into
> the wheels and axles, hence the higher price but that's ok
Yeah all of that stuff is incredibly robust. The wheels are solid iron
and spin effortlessly and for quite a when unloaded.
>
> i do like to learn about what's out there and the state of the art
> but I will make do with what i have and i enjoy improvising
> improvising provides some challenges and sometimes leads to accidental
> insights that I'd have missed otherwise
Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not the
HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe but it
seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the Italian
built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
"John McCoy" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
>wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
>and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
>Purely for show.
Though there could be a fifth wheel hitch under the bed cover... rather than
a receiver hitch. ;~)
On 2/27/2015 7:07 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
> OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
> wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
> and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
> Purely for show.
>
> John
>
No, I NEED that After all, I pick up a few potted plants for the wife
and a bag of fertilizer for the lawn.
I have to laugh at some of the owners. Do they ever wonder how Europe
got built using those small trucks?
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
@dont-email.me:
> this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
> engineering which includes bad choices for materials
As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.
John
On 2/28/15 7:57 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:01:55 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>
>>> MINIVAN????
>>>
>>
>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>
> I had two of them (at the same time, for a couple of years), though
> they weren't at all grand. Both were POS, though every Chrysler
> product I've had turned out to be a POS.
>
I've owned all three of the Big 3 and they are all POS in my book, with
the exception of the F150, pre computers. I guess I've just gotten used
to doing my own work on the Caravans, that they are the lesser of three
evils.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:01:55 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
>>> home they are still dry. :-)
>>> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
>>> rack. It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had
>>> about a dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>
>> MINIVAN????
>>
>
>Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
I had two of them (at the same time, for a couple of years), though
they weren't at all grand. Both were POS, though every Chrysler
product I've had turned out to be a POS.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:21:06 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:mcl041$dn4$1 @dont-email.me:
>>
>>> this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
>>> engineering which includes bad choices for materials
>>
>>As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
>>"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
>>when management forces the engineers to design to a
>>predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
>>forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
>>unrealistic goal.
>>
> As an engineer, I'll have to disagree. Engineering is *all* about
> cost. It's easy to build a bridge that will stand. It's really hard
> to design one that will barely stand. The goals might be unrealistic
> or perhaps the engineers aren't quite smart enough. ;-)
You're kind of misreading what I meant.
There's a difference between "come up with the lowest
cost design that meets these specs" and "come up with
a design that doesn't exceed this cost". For the first
one I might come back and say "here it is, and the cost
is $43.17". For the second I might say "here it is,
and to meet the $35 cost requirement we have to relax
this, this, and this specification".
The fun part of engineering is balancing all the specs,
both performance and cost, to get the best result. It's
not fun when the cost is locked in, and you can't trade
off one area for another.
Bridges, fortunately, are not built to a preset price.
John
Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:l4xHw.1932473
[email protected]:
> Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
> opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
> in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
> metal version. Might have to make one.
>
> I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
> that is used on many cars to limit weight.
The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.
John
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:10:17 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 2/28/15 7:57 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:01:55 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>>
>>>> MINIVAN????
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>>
>> I had two of them (at the same time, for a couple of years), though
>> they weren't at all grand. Both were POS, though every Chrysler
>> product I've had turned out to be a POS.
>>
>
>I've owned all three of the Big 3 and they are all POS in my book, with
>the exception of the F150, pre computers. I guess I've just gotten used
>to doing my own work on the Caravans, that they are the lesser of three
>evils.
Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
every 30K) and the bodies were worse. Chrysler has a big problem with
transmissions, too (both Intrepid class cars died because of the
transmission). They weren't worth fixing because no one wanted them
anyway.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Yep, I can the gasket thing a self changing oil system. :-)
> Also, they reportedly had a complete tranny redesign to correct their
> 30K life.
>
> But yeah, I'm not exactly lobbying for them.
>
>
Had that happen, I think it was on '03... then got another one that did
ok, then got an '08 that was absolute garbage. No more Dodge Grand
Caravans for us, we've gone to Toyota. (Next time you drive one of those
dodgy things by a Toyota dealership, stop by and ask to see the Sienna.)
They're apparently trying to move new Grand Caravans around here with
special deals and the like, but who knows how good Dodge's new Fiat
overlords are?
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
>> every 30K)
>
> That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
> wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
> might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
> failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.
>
> John
>
Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
> every 30K)
That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.
John
On 2/28/15 9:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:10:17 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/15 7:57 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:01:55 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> MINIVAN????
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>>>
>>> I had two of them (at the same time, for a couple of years), though
>>> they weren't at all grand. Both were POS, though every Chrysler
>>> product I've had turned out to be a POS.
>>>
>>
>> I've owned all three of the Big 3 and they are all POS in my book, with
>> the exception of the F150, pre computers. I guess I've just gotten used
>> to doing my own work on the Caravans, that they are the lesser of three
>> evils.
>
> Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
> every 30K) and the bodies were worse. Chrysler has a big problem with
> transmissions, too (both Intrepid class cars died because of the
> transmission). They weren't worth fixing because no one wanted them
> anyway.
>
Yep, I can the gasket thing a self changing oil system. :-)
Also, they reportedly had a complete tranny redesign to correct their
30K life.
But yeah, I'm not exactly lobbying for them.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/1/15 8:07 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Yep, I can the gasket thing a self changing oil system. :-) Also,
>> they reportedly had a complete tranny redesign to correct their 30K
>> life.
>>
>> But yeah, I'm not exactly lobbying for them.
>>
>>
>
> Had that happen, I think it was on '03... then got another one that
> did ok, then got an '08 that was absolute garbage. No more Dodge
> Grand Caravans for us, we've gone to Toyota. (Next time you drive
> one of those dodgy things by a Toyota dealership, stop by and ask to
> see the Sienna.)
>
Can't blame you at all for that. A fiend of mine has the Honda minivan
that is an obvious copy of the Caravan and it looks great. Every since
we bough our Honda Element, Honda has been first on the radar. I've
been very impressed with the, so far.
The one advantage that the Caravan has always had for me is the big
boxiness of it. It's very square inside instead of curving in as it
goes up. That is important when hauling road cases and such. Some of
the import copies seem to have kept those straight angles.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
>>> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
>>> part, if not more.
>>
>> Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
>> was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc.
>> for the weight reduction.
>
> I'll throw another thought into the mix. That thought is that a large
> number of the plastic parts that have been introduced over the years
> were really just as appropriate - or even moreso than the preceeding
> metal parts. Not all - but a large number. Forget about the weight
> thing - I think that's mostly garbage. But - cheaper plastic parts
> which hold up just as well as light weight metal parts, do serve a
> purpose - plus, they don't rust. There is this foolish notion that
> metal is better than plastic, but in reality it's not. Collision
> damage more often than not requires the replacement of the part -
> regardless of what it's made of. Plastic makes that part cheaper - or
> more profitable - could be both. Metal parts did not make it cheaper
> to repair or to replace those same parts. It takes a lot of work to
> repair metal parts, and in the end, that repair may not be as strong
> or as effective as a proper, new part.
>
> I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to this
> whole topic of "fleet performance". That applies to both the general
> public and to real, legitimate engineers who are expert in one area,
> but are otherwise not so expert in the overall - they rely on their
> titles as "engineers" as if they are expert in all areas.
There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
savings in weight and cost.
On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
life.
It's also worth noting that not all plastics are equal,
and an application where a fiber reinforced plastic like
Delrin is suitable wouldn't work with something like LDPE.
Especially in the 80s you saw a lot of metal subsituted
with weak, unsuitable plastics, where now better material
choices are being made.
John
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:54efb594$0$43061
[email protected]:
>>> The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
>>> a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
> -------------------------------------
> One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
> toy PU truck.
To my regret, I learned of it's deficiencies by owning
one. Unfortunately it combined poor engineering with
worse build quality, easily the worst vehicle I ever
bought.
> But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.
The S10 got replaced by a Ford F150 longbed in 2000,
which is still in fine shape (except it needs to be
painted). Doubt I'd ever consider anything but another
Ford if I was looking for a new pickup - but at this
point I kinda figure I'll never need to replace the
one I have.
One thing, tho - if you do woodworking a longbed truck
is a really useful thing. Being able to put 8' lumber
and plywood in the bed, with the tailgate up and the
tonneau cover over, makes life much simpler. And I
can easily carry 12', and with careful tieing 16', with
the tailgate down. The only downside is it's a pain
to park.
John
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:26:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
>>> every 30K)
>>
>> That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
>> wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
>> might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
>> failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.
>>
>> John
>>
>
>
>Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
>where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
>the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.
Not sure what Chrysler's problem was but it was common on the 2.3L(?)
fourbanger. It was a design issue.
On 3/2/2015 7:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:26:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
>>>> every 30K)
>>>
>>> That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
>>> wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
>>> might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
>>> failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>
>> Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
>> where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
>> the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.
>
> Not sure what Chrysler's problem was but it was common on the 2.3L(?)
> fourbanger. It was a design issue.
>
Yup if it is a repeated problem it is an inherent flaw.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I agree with this John. It was a live and learn sort of experience,
> and we've come a long way in understanding synthetics and how to apply
> them. Lots of 16 and 18 guage steel was successfully replaced by
> plastics (sorry - I really don't understand plastics like you do, so I
> use the inaccurate term "plastics") that provide resistance to rust
> and ridigity required in today's automobiles. Like I say - many of
> these parts really did not reduce weight very much - if at all, but
> brought a different economic value to the picture. Now, bumpers on
> the other hand...
Wouldn't say I have more than a passing understanding.
Back in the day, our mechanical engineers used to come
up with these massively strong, inordinately heavy steel
brackets, and I picked up some of the issues with plastic
argueing with them why we couldn't have an alternative.
Biggest reason in our case was volume - for small qtys
it's cheaper to form steel.
John
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> 8' is a "long bed"? It's the standard F150 bed, except the king cab
> has a 7'.
No, standard bed on a full-size pickup is 6'6". The double
door models have a bed of 5'6". 8' is long bed, you can
get that with extended cab, but if you want it with the
full double doors you have to go to a 3/4 or 1 ton model.
The big problem with a long bed is the truck ends up with
a huge turning circle - 53' for mine (I hate to think what
it is for a crew cab F250). That makes things like parking
and u-turns (need 4 lanes of road) a pain.
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
Around here you see a lot of the 4 door, extra-short bed
trucks because people use them to pull boats. An SUV
would be more practical, but the pickups are cheaper.
OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
Purely for show.
John
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:54f10d0a$0$4493
[email protected]:
> The
> long bed has a lot of advantages when towing a 5th wheel as well as
> hauling sheet goods and lumber.
Yeah, good point. The extra wheelbase helps pulling any kind
of a trailer, because it adds more resistance to the trailer
pushing the truck around.
John
Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> The 12" disc sander with stand and dust collector is tempting to me...
> ($475 instead of $559).
>
> Is there a better way to "round-off" the ends of two by fours?
Hand plane!
John
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:ktqdnSZ7Z-uMUWzJnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:
> We rented an apartment in a villa built in the 1500's. Even today,
> you'd have a hard time getting anything larger than a full sized pickup
> up the road on the side of the hill. I cannot imagine how they got
> materials to the site back then. Lots of stone, big timbers.
You get the same thing in remote parts of the US West, where
mining was once a thing. 12,000 feet up a mountain on a track
barely passable by Jeep, and you find a steam locomotive
boiler or something like that. Which was evidently hauled
up the mountain on rollers by a team of oxen or somesuch.
John
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 2/28/15 4:24 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a few
>>> 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit precarious
>>> around the corners one day when I had about a dozen treated 2x10s
>>> up there. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I borrowed my step father's minivan (it has a cargo rack) to bring
>> some some 16' gutters. That worked really nice.
>>
>> Once, though, I brought home a 2x10 that was 14' long. (Different
>> van.) With no cargo rack, I had to put it in the cabin. We had to
>> cut 2' off a 16' board, as that was just too tipsy.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>
> I can do small numbers of narrow 12' boards coming up through the
> passenger window.
> In my old Caravan (not the Grand/shorter), I would put 12' boards
> sitting on the rear-most folded up seat, running up and sitting on the
> dashboard, resting just against the windshield.
Y'know, you _can_ do stuff like that. Once upon a time I used
to tote surprisingly large bits of lumber in a Volvo. So yeah,
you can move wood around with all sorts of vehicles.
It's just a hell of a lot easier with the longbed pickup.
John
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The big problem with a long bed is the truck ends up with
>>a huge turning circle - 53' for mine (I hate to think what
>>it is for a crew cab F250). That makes things like parking
>>and u-turns (need 4 lanes of road) a pain.
>
> Yes, a standard bed with a full size truck is bad enough. Another
> 1-1/2 feet would make it unmanageable. It wouldn't fit in my garage,
> either. ;-)
It's actually worse than 1-1/2 feet. The wheelbase grows by 22",
and that's what affects the turning circle.
Mine doesn't fit the garage either, but then neither does the
car, owing to all the tools inside. On a good day I can squeeze
the motorcycle in.
John
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:md04kf$i7f$1
@dont-email.me:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance
>
> roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no
> I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't
I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
just so, the blade cuts straight as long as the tension is
close. You don't have to set the guides precisely, the
blade tracks straight as long as they're close.
Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes
a lot more difference than the saw - some blades just work,
and some you have to really fuss with the saw to get a
good result.
John
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
> Never had heard of felder or hammer
> they are together now and the products look similar
>Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
>the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
>early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
>some of Jet andPowermatic products.
Much of the Felder and Hammer stuff I've seen was geared more towards
commercial shops... European designs, big stuff, relatively expensive. Not
that a well heeled hobbyist with lots of space wouldn't be interested... ;~)
I like their sliding table saws, the big jointer/planners, and shapers. If I
hit a big lottery of some sort I could see having a big shop full of the
stuff.... ;~)
The first time I saw Felder tools in person Frank Klausz was manning the
booth and playing with a jointer/planner...
John
On 2/25/2015 5:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff
>
> my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
> manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
> strategy
Well worth it if you have a few extra pennies in your pocket. I'm happy
with my Jet bandsaw that was affordable when I bought it, but, yes, I'd
go for the Laguna today.
My Jet tools have worked well and are good value, but you can step up
for a few bucks more if you have it.
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:26:16 -0500
>"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The way this thread has wandered off topic
>wandering off topic's not possible it's only possible
>for the reader to not follow the topic
>I can understand how you might have gotten confused
I've been around here for 25+ years... threads under this topic have
definitely drifted way off topic into the world of transportation vehicles,
engines, etc...
RE Jet tools, as I posted previously, I've got a bunch of them and they all
have performed well. I do however recognize maintenance and consumable items
on tools and I know when I personally screwed something up... the tools
themselves have proven reliable, have met my performance expectations and
have let me perform well... I've got a box full of woodworking ribbons
including a "best of show" to show for it.
On 2/26/2015 4:34 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/26/2015 3:05 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> ...
>
>> There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
>> replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
>> comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
>> savings in weight and cost.
>>
>> On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
>> part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
>> strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
>> part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
>> life.
> ...
>
> Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
> ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
> regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never fail.
>
> Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
> with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
> whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
> barring following too many trucks too closely.
>
I'll assume you are talking about glass sealed beam headlights. Those
simply burn out before the glass goes bad. And none of these compared
in out put like the body shaped lenses over the head lamp bulbs.
On 2/27/2015 6:18 PM, Bill wrote:
> Speaking of Jet, their 15% off sale starts today (see Woodcraft, et. al.).
>
> Anything you've been waiting for?
>
> The 12" disc sander with stand and dust collector is tempting to me...
> ($475 instead of $559).
>
> Is there a better way to "round-off" the ends of two by fours?
FWIW the Delta 12" disk sander is nice, I have one, and it has a port
and hose for connecting to a shop vac or DC. IIRC those go for around
$250. I prefer to have a stand alone DC that works with all my
equipment vs. one that is dedicated to one tool.
http://www.cpooutlets.com/delta-31-140-12-in--disc-sander-with-integral-dust-collection/dwwn31-140,default,pd.html?start=1&cgid=sanders-and-polishers&prefn1=brand&prefv1=Delta
On a 2009 picture.
On 2/28/2015 8:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 2/28/2015 8:29 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/27/2015 7:23 PM, Max wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
>>>> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
>>
>> Nice-lookin' truck; El Paso is a long ways away, unfortunately...
>>
>> --
>
> That would depend on the price.
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:32:18 -0600, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 21:12:19 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:48:51 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>...
>>>
>>>> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
>>>> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
>>>> part, if not more.
>>>
>>>Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
>>>was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
>>>the weight reduction.
>>
>>Exactly. Ford didn't put an aluminum hood on my wife's car to save
>>money and the aluminum F150 isn't a cost reduction either. I work in
>>the automotive electronics industry. Even the electronics is under
>>pressure to save weight. Grams count.
>
>MSRP on a 2015 4x4 Crew cab $50,000 and a regular cab at about 40
>grand. But they were having a sale so you don't have to pay full
>price.
Yikes! I paid $25K for my 4x2 2013 extended cab XLT. The 4x4 was
only a couple of grand more.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>>
>>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>>> for this application
>>>>
>>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>>
>>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>>> stripped.
>>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>>> handle
>>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>>
>>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>>> as the original handle
>>>>
>>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>>> i lose and they lose
>>>>
>>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>>
>>>
>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>>> have purchased.
>>
>> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
>> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
>> though.
>
>I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
>time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
>trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
>While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
> IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
>the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
>that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
>supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
>had a broken trunnion.
I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).
>That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
>owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
>the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
>roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
>had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
>even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
>replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.
When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.
>Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
>fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
>Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
>Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
>those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
>
>And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
>prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
>I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
>in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
>Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
>too but still north of $3K.
Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?
>Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
>blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
>of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>
Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 01:30:01 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:54efb594$0$43061
>[email protected]:
>
>>>> The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
>>>> a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
>> -------------------------------------
>> One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
>> toy PU truck.
>
>To my regret, I learned of it's deficiencies by owning
>one. Unfortunately it combined poor engineering with
>worse build quality, easily the worst vehicle I ever
>bought.
>
>> But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.
>
>The S10 got replaced by a Ford F150 longbed in 2000,
>which is still in fine shape (except it needs to be
>painted). Doubt I'd ever consider anything but another
>Ford if I was looking for a new pickup - but at this
>point I kinda figure I'll never need to replace the
>one I have.
>
>One thing, tho - if you do woodworking a longbed truck
>is a really useful thing. Being able to put 8' lumber
>and plywood in the bed, with the tailgate up and the
>tonneau cover over, makes life much simpler. And I
>can easily carry 12', and with careful tieing 16', with
>the tailgate down. The only downside is it's a pain
>to park.
8' is a "long bed"? It's the standard F150 bed, except the king cab
has a 7'. But you're right. Hauling 12' lumber isn't a big deal. I
built a 12'frame that gets anchored to the bed so I can easily carry
12' sheetrock (except that I can't lift it ;-).
On 3/1/2015 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:md04kf$i7f$1
> @dont-email.me:
>
>> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600
>> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance
>>
>> roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no
>> I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't
>
> I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
> a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
> just so, the blade cuts straight as long as the tension is
> close. You don't have to set the guides precisely, the
> blade tracks straight as long as they're close.
>
> Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes
> a lot more difference than the saw - some blades just work,
> and some you have to really fuss with the saw to get a
> good result.
>
> John
>
Thank you John that is basically what I was trying to say. ;~)
The fussier the saw the pickier the adjustment has to be.
And as for the blades though I found that any blade "so far" works well
on the Laguna and not so much on a lesser saw. And that probably has to
do with what you eloquently explained as adjustments not having to be
just so.
On 2/28/2015 8:29 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 7:23 PM, Max wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
>>> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
>
> Nice-lookin' truck; El Paso is a long ways away, unfortunately...
>
> --
That would depend on the price.
On 2/28/2015 5:17 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:VZWdnTUgKfDikWzJnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>>
>> No, I NEED that After all, I pick up a few potted plants for the wife
>> and a bag of fertilizer for the lawn.
>>
>> I have to laugh at some of the owners. Do they ever wonder how Europe
>> got built using those small trucks?
>
> Oh I know! *raises hand excitedly and jumps* I know! I know!
>
> They used under-powered Kias* to pull caravans to and from the jobsite!
>
> *Caravaner club's towcar of the year
>
> Puckdropper
>
That for the really big jobs. One day we were sitting outside having a
cappuchino and watched two guys unloading material from a small truck
onto a dolly and pushing it a half block down a narrow street. I imagine
most of the building was delivered on a dolly or back of a donkey.
We rented an apartment in a villa built in the 1500's. Even today,
you'd have a hard time getting anything larger than a full sized pickup
up the road on the side of the hill. I cannot imagine how they got
materials to the site back then. Lots of stone, big timbers.
On 2/25/2015 12:21 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
> @dont-email.me:
>
>> this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
>> engineering which includes bad choices for materials
>
> As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
> "bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
> when management forces the engineers to design to a
> predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
> forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
> unrealistic goal.
>
> John
>
Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
metal version. Might have to make one.
I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
that is used on many cars to limit weight.
Martin
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:48:53 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/25/2015 8:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>>>>>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>>>>>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>>>>>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>>>>>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>>>>>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>>>>>>> for this application
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>>>>>>> stripped.
>>>>>>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>>>>>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>>>>>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>>>>>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>>>>>>> as the original handle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>>>>>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>>>>>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>>>>>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>>>>>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>>>>>>> i lose and they lose
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>>>>>>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>>>>>>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>>>>>>> have purchased.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
>>>>>> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
>>>>>> though.
>>>>>
>>>>> I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
>>>>> time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
>>>>> trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
>>>>> While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
>>>>> IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
>>>>> the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
>>>>> that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
>>>>> supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
>>>>> had a broken trunnion.
>>>>
>>>> I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
>>>> been great (wish I could play with it).
>>>>
>>>>> That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
>>>>> owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
>>>>> the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
>>>>> roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
>>>>> had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
>>>>> even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
>>>>> replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
>>>>
>>>> The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
>>>> capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
>>>> $3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
>>>> represent income, rather outgo.
>>>>
>>>> When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
>>>> Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
>>>> out about that time and I bought it instead.
>>>
>>> I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
>>> loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
>>> expensive piece of equipment.
>>
>> I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
>> I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
>> (three pulleys).
>
>I hear you.... I did upgrade to the link belts for considerably less
>vibration but a bit more noise on higher speeds.
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>> Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
>>>>> fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
>>>>> Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
>>>>> Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
>>>>> those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
>>>>>
>>>>> And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
>>>>> prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
>>>>> I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
>>>>> in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
>>>>> Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
>>>>> too but still north of $3K.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
>>>> the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
>>>> Unisaws under $1000?
>>>
>>> No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
>>> the $2500~$2700 range.
>>
>>
>> Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
>> when they came out.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
>>>>> blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
>>>>> of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>>>>>
>>>> Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)
>>>>
>>> I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.
>>>
>> WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
>> the bars. ;-)
>>
>That is how I started out.....and then a hobby turned into more.
I have no intention of doing that. It would ruin a perfectly good
hobby.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
> better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
> woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
> tools that I have purchased.
I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon
> Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
> replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
> competitive brand.
this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials
jet saw short-term sales by lowering quality but long term they
now will see diminished customer loyalty and lower sales
mutually assured disappointment
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
> Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
> and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
> compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
> little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
> tracks perfectly.
the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna
I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff
my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
strategy
btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle
also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
What model lathe is that? I've been thinking about getting one of their
1221VS benchtop lathes, and I'm hoping that's not the model you're
complaining about.
Tom
On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
> part, if not more.
Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
the weight reduction.
--
dpb wrote:
> On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> ...
>
>> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
>> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
>> part, if not more.
>
> Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
> was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
> the weight reduction.
I'll throw another thought into the mix. That thought is that a large
number of the plastic parts that have been introduced over the years were
really just as appropriate - or even moreso than the preceeding metal parts.
Not all - but a large number. Forget about the weight thing - I think
that's mostly garbage. But - cheaper plastic parts which hold up just as
well as light weight metal parts, do serve a purpose - plus, they don't
rust. There is this foolish notion that metal is better than plastic, but
in reality it's not. Collision damage more often than not requires the
replacement of the part - regardless of what it's made of. Plastic makes
that part cheaper - or more profitable - could be both. Metal parts did not
make it cheaper to repair or to replace those same parts. It takes a lot of
work to repair metal parts, and in the end, that repair may not be as strong
or as effective as a proper, new part.
I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to this whole
topic of "fleet performance". That applies to both the general public and
to real, legitimate engineers who are expert in one area, but are otherwise
not so expert in the overall - they rely on their titles as "engineers" as
if they are expert in all areas.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 02/26/2015 3:05 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
> replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
> comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
> savings in weight and cost.
>
> On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
> part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
> strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
> part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
> life.
...
Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never fail.
Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
barring following too many trucks too closely.
On our gravel roads the plastic headlight covers are pitted/scratched
within months...
I could go on (and on and on....) with a litany.
--
John McCoy wrote:
>
> It's also worth noting that not all plastics are equal,
> and an application where a fiber reinforced plastic like
> Delrin is suitable wouldn't work with something like LDPE.
> Especially in the 80s you saw a lot of metal subsituted
> with weak, unsuitable plastics, where now better material
> choices are being made.
>
I agree with this John. It was a live and learn sort of experience, and
we've come a long way in understanding synthetics and how to apply them.
Lots of 16 and 18 guage steel was successfully replaced by plastics (sorry -
I really don't understand plastics like you do, so I use the inaccurate term
"plastics") that provide resistance to rust and ridigity required in today's
automobiles. Like I say - many of these parts really did not reduce weight
very much - if at all, but brought a different economic value to the
picture. Now, bumpers on the other hand...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dpb wrote:
>
> Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
> ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
> regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never
> fail.
Had a couple of cars (2 or 3) with the 3.8L and I never encountered that
problem. All of them hit at least 250,000 miles before I got rid of them.
And I thought I had encountered just about all of the typical GM problems...
>
> Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
> with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
> whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
> barring following too many trucks too closely.
Preach it brother!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
> toy PU truck.
>
> But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.
>
I've been casually looking at smaller pickups again as I consider whether to
breath new life into my 94 Silverado or to go back to a toy truck. I may
just go ahead and get a rolling chassis from down south somewhere and move
my body and drive line over to a clean chassis, and get another 8-10 years
out of the old girl for just a couple to a few grand.
Having been looking though, it seems really clear to me that in the toy
truck market, the Tacoma is the undisputed, hands-down winner - especially
with the 6 cylinder engine. If I decide to go the route of a newer truck,
it will be a Tacoma without a doubt.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 02/26/2015 5:00 PM, Leon wrote:
...
> I'll assume you are talking about glass sealed beam headlights. Those
> simply burn out before the glass goes bad. And none of these compared in
> out put like the body shaped lenses over the head lamp bulbs.
...
No, I'm talking about the plastic lens covers over the lamps...I don't
care what the lamp style is; if the covers were glass instead of plastic
they wouldn't craze nor get scratched within a few months...
--
On 02/26/2015 7:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
>> ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
>> regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never
>> fail.
>
> Had a couple of cars (2 or 3) with the 3.8L and I never encountered that
> problem. All of them hit at least 250,000 miles before I got rid of them.
> And I thought I had encountered just about all of the typical GM problems...
...
Actually, I've never gotten over its retirement...it's the later 3.9L
have had trouble with. If you ever do have a later GM and think you've
got a water pump leak, check those hose connections carefully first...
--
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:35:12 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
I heard laguna resharpen these blades and the blades are not cheap
but they do things that cannot be done with other bandsaw/blade combos
> blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through
> the pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.
worthless as a conventional veneer but useful for other things
> Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
> Probably 30+ years
but I'd still never heard of them, wish i had though
> Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
> they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good
> stuff is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.
Ok but the designs are still significant and standout
regarding rikon I don't know them either but giving a quick look
it looks just like all the other players where as the laguna
bandsaws really standout, the ceramic guides as you pointed out,
etc.
I was amazed what the guy was doing with a bandsaw, I think it
was a video for the fence system but still was something I didn't
know could be done with a bandsaw
On 02/27/2015 9:22 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/26/2015 7:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
>>> ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
>>> regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never
>>> fail.
>>
>> Had a couple of cars (2 or 3) with the 3.8L and I never encountered that
>> problem. All of them hit at least 250,000 miles before I got rid of them.
>> And I thought I had encountered just about all of the typical GM
>> problems...
> ...
>
> Actually, I've never gotten over its retirement...it's the later 3.9L
> have had trouble with. If you ever do have a later GM and think you've
> got a water pump leak, check those hose connections carefully first...
They're enough of a problem there are 3rd-party non-plastic replacements
available...
<http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-help-heater-hose-elbow-aluminum-47065hp/10267342-P>
--
On 02/26/2015 8:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:
...
> 8' is a "long bed"? It's the standard F150 bed, ...
There isn't any "standard"; they're all options at build time.
Certainly any more w/ the extended and quad cabs you see far fewer
full-length than shorter because the wheel bases are so long,
particularly for the full 4-door.
Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
--
dpb wrote:
>
> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
I have to wonder what people are trying to say when they make that
statement. My Silverado is an extended cab with a 6 1/2' box. I plow snow
with it, run to the dump with it, pick up lumber with it, and all sorts of
other things. Just what is this real "trucks" things people talk about? I
can carry 12' lumber in my box. Does that make it a truck? It's too short
for 16' lumber - does that make it "not a truck"? I never did understand
this thought that a truck had to have an 8 foot box.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 02/27/2015 3:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>
> I have to wonder what people are trying to say when they make that
> statement. My Silverado is an extended cab with a 6 1/2' box. I plow snow
> with it, run to the dump with it, pick up lumber with it, and all sorts of
> other things. Just what is this real "trucks" things people talk about? I
> can carry 12' lumber in my box. Does that make it a truck? It's too short
> for 16' lumber - does that make it "not a truck"? I never did understand
> this thought that a truck had to have an 8 foot box.
Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans to
the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as far
as the usage they get.
--
On 02/27/2015 4:22 PM, dpb wrote:
...
> Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
> occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
> rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans to
> the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as far
> as the usage they get.
Oh, and to finish the relationship to bedlength: because most are
purchased/used such a way, it's the shorter wheelbase that is more
important and so a very high fraction are, if not the shortest,
certainly <8'.
--
On 02/27/2015 4:25 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 4:22 PM, dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>> Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
>> occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
>> rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans to
>> the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as far
>> as the usage they get.
>
> Oh, and to finish the relationship to bedlength: because most are
> purchased/used such a way, it's the shorter wheelbase that is more
> important and so a very high fraction are, if not the shortest,
> certainly <8'.
And, just one other observation re: shortbeds -- even the oil companies
for the pumpers and well-checkers are buying shortbeds now because they
aren't hauling stuff other than some individual tools/instrumentation.
The get hard use, granted, for them the are using the truck for road
clearance and the mud/sand traction more than for hauling. A lot of
them out here have been converted to CNG so what bed there is is half or
more taken up w/ the tank, anyway.
I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular cab
4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
--
On 02/27/2015 5:23 PM, Max wrote:
...
>> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular cab
>> 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for even a
>> choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
>>
...
> I have a 2009 F250 Lariat Supercab 4X4 w/8' bed that's for sale. I no
> longer have need for 4X4 or F250. It has 18,000 miles on it.
Don't know Ford nomenclature; what's the "Supercab", specifically?
Where is it located?
--
On 02/27/2015 4:22 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 3:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>>
>> I have to wonder what people are trying to say when they make that
>> statement. My Silverado is an extended cab with a 6 1/2' box. I plow snow
>> with it, run to the dump with it, pick up lumber with it, and all
>> sorts of
>> other things. Just what is this real "trucks" things people talk about? I
>> can carry 12' lumber in my box. Does that make it a truck? It's too short
>> for 16' lumber - does that make it "not a truck"? I never did understand
>> this thought that a truck had to have an 8 foot box.
>
> Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
> occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
> rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans to
> the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as far
> as the usage they get.
And, to set the record straight, I'm like all the rest... :)
Besides the work truck have a short-bed 2WD C1500 3-dr w/ matched topper
that's the "town" truck that gets only highway/town usage...an '99, it
has just turned 45K miles or so, and it's made one trip to the west
coast and another to the east (or at least as far as Raleigh,
NC/Petersburg, VA). Even w'working related; picked up an old hybrid
Delta/Walker-Turner spindle shaper had found on eBay since were going to
make the trip to Raleigh to visit elder son and family anyway...
--
On 2/27/15 3:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>
> I have to wonder what people are trying to say when they make that
> statement. My Silverado is an extended cab with a 6 1/2' box. I plow snow
> with it, run to the dump with it, pick up lumber with it, and all sorts of
> other things. Just what is this real "trucks" things people talk about? I
> can carry 12' lumber in my box. Does that make it a truck? It's too short
> for 16' lumber - does that make it "not a truck"? I never did understand
> this thought that a truck had to have an 8 foot box.
>
I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
home they are still dry. :-)
I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack.
It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had about a
dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:45:35 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> The Resaw King is a b-metal blade, although not carbide. The blade
> is indeed expensive and but can be resharpened by Laguna. I only use
they have a limit on the number of resharpens but it's 10 or so
and that would last a long time unless the blade's abused and needed
more sharpenings
>
> A pretty much direct competitor to Laguna is MiniMax. I considered
> that saw also but had issues with the home office/showroom floor when
> I made an appointment to see a particular saw and traveled 180 miles
> to do so. The day before the appointment they had the saw, the next
> day when I arrived they had a cannibalized model.
but that alone can't have swayed you entirely
have not heard of minimax either will have to look
>
> They do from the Laguna Exclusive guides and perhaps the Baldor
> motors but they do resemble a few other Italian made BS's that all
> come from the same factory. But yes it was the specific differences
> that sold me.
I see, can italian made BSs be bought in US?
>
> Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as
> the Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was
> building a nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make
> all of the cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no
> guides... He demoed cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides
> removed. This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in
> expense to get a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that
> the saw is sound enough to hold its settings and not have to be
> tweaked regularly.
makes sense but it also means a lot of engineering has to go into
the wheels and axles, hence the higher price but that's ok
i do like to learn about what's out there and the state of the art
but I will make do with what i have and i enjoy improvising
improvising provides some challenges and sometimes leads to accidental
insights that I'd have missed otherwise
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:18:16 -0500
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> The 12" disc sander with stand and dust collector is tempting to
> me... ($475 instead of $559).
stock up on spare parts for it too
dpb wrote:
>
> Misunderstand the statement...I'd say using a truck in that manner
> occurs w/ probably well less than 25% of all trucks sold any more--the
> rest at most see an occasional bag of groceries or a few garbage cans
> to the dump; otherwise they're just cars that happen to have a bed as
> far as the usage they get.
Got it. Didn't catch your meaning first time by.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dpb wrote:
>
> I've been watching for two years for a decent used, long-bed regular
> cab 4x4 to update the work truck. They are few and far between for
> even a choice...20 yr ago, they were rampant.
I agree - it does seem that the short box, extended cab has taken over the
market.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
> home they are still dry. :-)
> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
> rack. It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had
> about a dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
MINIVAN????
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/28/15 4:24 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a few
>> 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit precarious
>> around the corners one day when I had about a dozen treated 2x10s
>> up there. :-)
>>
>
> I borrowed my step father's minivan (it has a cargo rack) to bring
> some some 16' gutters. That worked really nice.
>
> Once, though, I brought home a 2x10 that was 14' long. (Different
> van.) With no cargo rack, I had to put it in the cabin. We had to
> cut 2' off a 16' board, as that was just too tipsy.
>
> Puckdropper
>
I can do small numbers of narrow 12' boards coming up through the
passenger window.
In my old Caravan (not the Grand/shorter), I would put 12' boards
sitting on the rear-most folded up seat, running up and sitting on the
dashboard, resting just against the windshield.
One day I put some hardwood planks in that position and went to close
the tailgate, but it wouldn't shut all the way. I figured I'd push
harder to nudge them up a bit, forgetting that hardwood boards are cut
an inch or two longer than dimensional lumber.
You know that feeling of warning you get *as* your doing something but
it's too late for your brain to tell your body to stop. I give it a big
push and "crack!" The boards pushed into the windshield and cracked it.
So I paid my stupid tax that day. :-D
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
>> home they are still dry. :-)
>> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
>> rack. It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had
>> about a dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>
> MINIVAN????
>
Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get them
>>> home they are still dry. :-)
>>> I've also carried quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage
>>> rack. It got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I
>>> had about a dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>
>> MINIVAN????
>>
>
> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
Ugh! I like you MIke, so I really, really feel sorry for you. But -
drummers and all that stuff... (after all, it does have to double as a home
for a drummer...)
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/28/15 1:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>
>>> MINIVAN????
>>>
>>
>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>
> Ugh! I like you MIke, so I really, really feel sorry for you. But
> - drummers and all that stuff... (after all, it does have to double
> as a home for a drummer...)
>
The drummer part is key. Trust me man, I've looked at all other
options, like SUVs and pick-up cappers, etc... because let's face it...
the cool factor doesn't get much higher than driving up to the gig
looking like a soccer-mom. :-D
What it came down to were two factors.
1. I can fit way more inside this minivan than any other truck/SUV.
The only exceptions are those big, full-sized Suburbans... which leads
to the second factor.
2. A minivan floor/tailgate is at least 6" lower than any other hauling
vehicle. This is critical when lifting up road cases and all the other
heavy $h!t I have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not a young man
anymore. Couple age with a ruptured disk, one unstable vertebra, and a
Pars defect, and the very low loading deck is worth it's weight in
medical fees. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/28/15 1:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>>
>>>> MINIVAN????
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>>
>> Ugh! I like you MIke, so I really, really feel sorry for you. But
>> - drummers and all that stuff... (after all, it does have to double
>> as a home for a drummer...)
>>
>
> The drummer part is key. Trust me man, I've looked at all other
> options, like SUVs and pick-up cappers, etc... because let's face
> it... the cool factor doesn't get much higher than driving up to the
> gig looking like a soccer-mom. :-D
>
> What it came down to were two factors.
> 1. I can fit way more inside this minivan than any other truck/SUV.
> The only exceptions are those big, full-sized Suburbans... which leads
> to the second factor.
>
> 2. A minivan floor/tailgate is at least 6" lower than any other
> hauling vehicle. This is critical when lifting up road cases and all
> the other heavy $h!t I have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not a
> young man anymore. Couple age with a ruptured disk, one unstable
> vertebra, and a Pars defect, and the very low loading deck is worth
> it's weight in medical fees. :-)
All very logical and makes a lot of sense - but... it's a damned MINIVAN!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/28/15 1:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I get
>>>>> them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried quite a
>>>>> few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It got a bit
>>>>> precarious around the corners one day when I had about a dozen
>>>>> treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>>
>>>> MINIVAN????
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>>
>> Ugh! I like you MIke, so I really, really feel sorry for you. But
>> - drummers and all that stuff... (after all, it does have to double
>> as a home for a drummer...)
>>
>
> The drummer part is key. Trust me man, I've looked at all other
> options, like SUVs and pick-up cappers, etc... because let's face
> it... the cool factor doesn't get much higher than driving up to the
> gig looking like a soccer-mom. :-D
>
> What it came down to were two factors.
> 1. I can fit way more inside this minivan than any other truck/SUV.
> The only exceptions are those big, full-sized Suburbans... which leads
> to the second factor.
>
> 2. A minivan floor/tailgate is at least 6" lower than any other
> hauling vehicle. This is critical when lifting up road cases and all
> the other heavy $h!t I have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not a
> young man anymore. Couple age with a ruptured disk, one unstable
> vertebra, and a Pars defect, and the very low loading deck is worth
> it's weight in medical fees. :-)
I could understand using it to cart around your music gear, but really...
you go to the Home Depot in that thing? Mike - you need a cruddy old pick
up for those trips to the Depot...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/28/15 3:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/28/15 1:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 2/28/15 6:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can carry a stack of 4x8 plywood in my minivan and when I
>>>>>> get them home they are still dry. :-) I've also carried
>>>>>> quite a few 16' boards, strapped to the luggage rack. It
>>>>>> got a bit precarious around the corners one day when I had
>>>>>> about a dozen treated 2x10s up there. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> MINIVAN????
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not just a minivan. A Caravan. A GRAND Caravan! :-D
>>>
>>> Ugh! I like you MIke, so I really, really feel sorry for you.
>>> But - drummers and all that stuff... (after all, it does have to
>>> double as a home for a drummer...)
>>>
>>
>> The drummer part is key. Trust me man, I've looked at all other
>> options, like SUVs and pick-up cappers, etc... because let's face
>> it... the cool factor doesn't get much higher than driving up to
>> the gig looking like a soccer-mom. :-D
>>
>> What it came down to were two factors. 1. I can fit way more
>> inside this minivan than any other truck/SUV. The only exceptions
>> are those big, full-sized Suburbans... which leads to the second
>> factor.
>>
>> 2. A minivan floor/tailgate is at least 6" lower than any other
>> hauling vehicle. This is critical when lifting up road cases and
>> all the other heavy $h!t I have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm
>> not a young man anymore. Couple age with a ruptured disk, one
>> unstable vertebra, and a Pars defect, and the very low loading deck
>> is worth it's weight in medical fees. :-)
>
> I could understand using it to cart around your music gear, but
> really... you go to the Home Depot in that thing? Mike - you need a
> cruddy old pick up for those trips to the Depot...
>
I'm loaded and pulling out of the lot by the time this pick-up guys have
their loads secured and covered in tarps. My plywood gets home
unscathed and dry every time while they cross their fingers.
Having said that, I rue the day I sold my '84 F-150 Supercab.
I really miss just driving to the gravel pit or mulch/sand yards and
pulling under the front end loader while they dump a couple tons of
whatever in the bed and then I just drive off.
I even had one of those load handler mats with the crank handle that
enabled you to roll up the mat, pulling the load out of the bed with
very little effort.
Plus, it was a breeze to work on and parts were super cheap and
ubiquitous.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> Having said that, I rue the day I sold my '84 F-150 Supercab.
> I really miss just driving to the gravel pit or mulch/sand yards and
> pulling under the front end loader while they dump a couple tons of
> whatever in the bed and then I just drive off.
> I even had one of those load handler mats with the crank handle that
> enabled you to roll up the mat, pulling the load out of the bed with
> very little effort.
I'm really seriously thinking of putting one of those in my '94 if I end up
rebuilding it. They look like a completely great idea.
>
> Plus, it was a breeze to work on and parts were super cheap and
> ubiquitous.
That's a big part of the reason I'm thinking so seriously of just rebuilding
my '94. I can do all of the work myself so cost is minimal if I can get a
decent frame from somewhere down south. My body is really solid except for
the cab floor boards and I may just try to get a chassis with a cab - don't
care if it's been stripped. My running gear is mostly remanufactured, or is
in good shape for the age - certainly has lots of life left in it. And like
your experience - Silverado parts are everywhere.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:20:04 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> FWIW here are a couple of pictures of a piece of red oak that I
> resawed with a common 1/2" blade on the Laguna.
Nice cuts, like i said i was surprised to learn that could be done
with a bandsaw
with that kind of precision it really is a new tool and leaves
the previous designs in the dust
On 02/28/2015 7:29 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 7:23 PM, Max wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I see where Doug answered the Supercab question.
>>> The truck is in El Paso, Texas.
>>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100373064@N03/16044958304/
>
> Nice-lookin' truck; El Paso is a long ways away, unfortunately...
Actually, we'll be making a fair chunk of that distance (as far as
Albuquerque before heading on west) soon...perhaps should
consult/discuss off-line. My email is dpb[ozarth] at the domain
swko<dot>net. Remove obvious punctuation...
On the return leg it might be possible to swing on south altho hadn't
really considered it, it is a pleasure trip of no great pre-ordained
duration nor destination other than the first objective for which have
commitments so couldn't head your way going.
--
On 03/01/2015 9:25 AM, Max wrote:
...
> I have a couple offers here already. But if nothing develops I'll let
> you know.
Yeah, that's a large-enough population center wouldn't think you'd have
much trouble...if it weren't 9 hr or so from here...when brother was in
Midland years ago folks went down there and then Dad thought he'd like
to see the Big Bend country. Story I heard was they started out and
after driving for 4 hr or so decided to turn around instead... :)
--
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> Ultimately the 10 point ceramic guides that Laguna developed was the
> deal maker, and probably the Baldor motor.
the rikon sales people knew which saw was better so what else can they
do
the ceramic guides seem to make a big difference
> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
> looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
never heard of felder or hammer will have to look
>
> I would say that all of the above except the MiniMax are probably
> built in the same Italian Factory, all being similar. The MiniMax is
> significantly different.
interesting
i hear that washers/dryers are made in only a few factories now
> Yeah all of that stuff is incredibly robust. The wheels are solid
> iron and spin effortlessly and for quite a when unloaded.
quiet is a good trait, noise is a good sign that something might
not be right
i track down noise all the time sometimes it's inherent sometimes
it leads to loose pullys, dry belts, etc.
> Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not
> the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
> but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
> Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
one day I'll upgrade but my wood products will have to pay for it
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:49:07 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> I really don't think it is a new tool so much as one that is just not
it's new from my perspective for sure
>=20
> Anyway the over all stiffness of the saw is important and especially
> if you use the wider resaw blades. While most saws being sold can
> handle 1/2" blades with out problems when you start using the wider
my saw won't have anything bigger than 1/2" and when it's adjusted
right it cuts very well
> woods. I literally spent more time cleaning bearings, blades, and
> making adjustments than cutting scraps. The ceramic guides OTOH
> scrape clean the blades, they are literally self cleaning and I have
> absolutely no issues that the roller guides introduced. With the
> Laguna guides the saw has two upper side guides on each side of the
> blade and two lowers side guides on each side of the blade. Laguna
> claims that the upper ceramic inserts in the top guide absorb most of
> the vibration of the blade as it comes off of the top wheel and the
> lower inserts in the top guide do the actual guiding of the blade to
> the lower guide assembly.
The introduction of the ceramic guides seems to have been a big
step in BS evolution
> The price I paid for my Laguna included the ResawKing blade, mobility=20
> kit, 4~5 more blades, and shipped.
if my projects can pay for the tool i have no problem with spending
more for good tools
> straight on the floor. They finally admitted that they were having=20
> issues with their blades working on the Rikon BS's. After getting
back to the drawing board for Rikon or keep lowering the price
or be an also-ran
> Timberwolfs. I highly suspect that the backbone of the Rikon was not
> up to the task of holding its tension on the wider blades thus
> creating tracking problems.
bigger blades just don't work on all saws, simple physics
the saw's got to be built to match the blade size
there's a guy that has a entire guide just for dealing with delta
BS problems
one of the problems he points out is that parts get bent because
of over tensioning with blades that are too large for the saw
=46rom somewhere I read about the delta BS guy but I can't recall
his name now
he has no website and you have to call him to get the guide
=20
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:17:12 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> And there is the rub, ;~) Adjusted right on My Laguna can be a wide
> range of tolerance. It cuts well at just about any adjustment.
seems to me that there's correct and incorrect adjustment
you can't have something out of adjustment and have it work
it stays adjusted or it doesn't
i haven't adjusted mine since I put the 1/2" on it
you can't say "my saw's out of adjustment and still works fine"
> investment in my production. With these better tools I can build
> better and faster.
the time savings for me isn't big enough to justify the expense
> And that is not just if the blade will fit, wider blades will fit
> saws that simply can't handle the tension required. IIRC the Rikon
> would handle a 1" blade.
no of course it's not just if the blade will fit it is about the
size of the drivetrain, etc.
> Probably Inturra Designs
that might be it I have the catalog pdf around somewhere
an interesting read
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance
roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no
I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't
bought mine used and cheap and it was hardly used I think the previous
owner had no idea how to adjust the saw because it was really way
off I figured it out and it's good and stable
> The wider blade does not require more power. The thickness and
it does because the tension means more force is needed but if the
drivetrain isn't beefy enough things gets bad and a wider blade will
not work in all aspects
> Yeah he has a lot of good advise and products.
it is iturra design
On 3/1/15 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:md04kf$i7f$1 @dont-email.me:
>
>> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600 Leon <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For
>>> instance
>>
>> roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no I'll
>> agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't
>
> I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on a
> well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension just so, the
> blade cuts straight as long as the tension is close. You don't have
> to set the guides precisely, the blade tracks straight as long as
> they're close.
>
> Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes a lot
> more difference than the saw - some blades just work, and some you
> have to really fuss with the saw to get a good result.
>
> John
>
That's been my experience.
If you spend the time to make sure your wheels are coplaner, the blade
is centered on the wheels, and you get the tension in range, the guides
are almost not even needed.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
> a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
any saw has to be adjusted
there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
they require something
some take more adjustment
some need readjustment from time to time
some don't
pretty simple
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:26:16 -0500
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The way this thread has wandered off topic
the topic's about jet tool's inferior designs and how they've not
earned any more money from me due those inferior designs
wandering off topic's not possible it's only possible
for the reader to not follow the topic
I can understand how you might have gotten confused
usenet is about allowing topics to go fractal and not about
staying on topic
any topic that comes up is usually related to the main one
even in miniscule ways sometimes
.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
>> working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.
>
>> Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
>> price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the
>> tool,
>> then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look
>> at
>> how well Harbor Freight is doing.
The only point I disagree with is your characterization of the $5 savings
Ed. We both know that the price differential has been far greater than
that. In fact - nobody ever made a decision based on a $5 price point.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> During the early '60s, I worked on devices that got mounted on
> the engines of military vehicles.
>
> The performance specification was straight forward.
>
> 500 hours of performanc life with ZERO, ZIP failures.
Ok - so those same kind of specs exist today and they are met today. Your
point?
> Another example of a throw away device is the printed circuit board
> populated with poorest tolerance components as possible except for
> a single resistor and a capacitor which are the tightest tolerance
> devices available.
I'm sure you will cite some obscure reference but I've been in this industry
for too many years to listen to someone like you spout crap like this. This
is just not how engineering and manufacturing is done. Nice story line but
it really just not play in reality. To listen to stuff like this is to
believe that everything we buy or that is manufactured is done so to fail in
the shortest possible time. We have all experienced too many long lived
products to buy into that crap. Even at low price points.
This group can just get too carried away with this kind of rhetoric that is
simply unproven.
>
> The populated boards are then tested to determine the resistor
> and capacitor values to classify the board assembly as a tight
> tolerance device.
>
> From a manufacting point of view, it's the best of all worlds.
>
> Low cost, wide tolerance components are used for at least 90%
> of the of the devices while high cost, tight tolerance devices
> allow a low cost, high performance boards to be delivered to
> the market.
Bull.
>
> I'm afraid the days of being able to make repairs, even simple
> ones to rebuild a tool in the field are quickly becoming history
> from another era.
>
I'm afraid there are too many tall tales like this one about what the good
old days were and what evolved over time.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:33:30 -0500
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been around here for 25+ years... threads under this topic have
> definitely drifted way off topic into the world of transportation
If you read them you drifted off on to them. Not the other way round
theres a difference
> RE Jet tools, as I posted previously, I've got a bunch of them and
> they all have performed well. I do however recognize maintenance and
Glad to hear it
I won't be spending any more $$ on Jet ever
I went through this process over a decade ago, trying to decide between
the MiniMax (MM16) and Laguna.
At the time, the MM was the clear winner, better saw and better customer
service. The Laguna saws at the time were playing catchup, less
capacity, power, and poorer table finish.
I luv my MM! The only changes I made were to dump the Euro guides after
they began seizing and replace then with a used set of Carter bearing
guides.
Being an import, I spent many hours removing the cosmoline, but this
gave me the time to tweak every major adjustment and set up the dust
collection hardware.
These saws are a step up from the typical Delta/Jet/Powermatic. Heavy
cast iron wheels, flat (not crowned) tires, more resawing depth, can
tension over 1" blades easily, rock solid steel guide post, 3.5 HP
motor, etc. Key to me is the ability to align and then lock in all the
critical adjustments, Do it right once and then forget about it.
If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax has
stagnated.
I'd love to replace my Carters with the Laguna ceramics. The Carters are
fussy to set up and the bearings load up with gunk which needs to be
constantly cleaned out. Don't read me wrong, the Carters do an excellent
job when things are clean, it is just my opinion that bandsaw guides
really should be scrapers instead of rollers (a roller thrust bearing is
perfect IMO).
My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an "Olsen"
brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10" white oak. I
bought several timber wolf blades as replacements and they also
disappointed me with short lives. I then went with a Highland Hardware
resaw king and it's been heaven ever since.
Since my purchase, both MM and Laguna have begun selling more 'entry'
level models and the Delta/Jet/Powermatic group has begun selling more
upscale models, nicely filling the gap between the hobbyist and
industrial equipment markets.
-BR
On 3/1/15, 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as
>>> the Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was
>>> building a nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make
>>> all of the cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no
>>> guides... He demoed cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides
>>> removed. This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in
>>> expense to get a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that
>>> the saw is sound enough to hold its settings and not have to be
>>> tweaked regularly.
>>
>> makes sense but it also means a lot of engineering has to go into
>> the wheels and axles, hence the higher price but that's ok
>
> Yeah all of that stuff is incredibly robust. The wheels are solid iron
> and spin effortlessly and for quite a when unloaded.
>
>
>>
>> i do like to learn about what's out there and the state of the art
>> but I will make do with what i have and i enjoy improvising
>> improvising provides some challenges and sometimes leads to accidental
>> insights that I'd have missed otherwise
>
> Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not the
> HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe but it
> seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the Italian
> built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
>
>
>
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 3/1/15, 9:21 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/1/2015 7:12 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
>> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
>>> a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
>>
>> any saw has to be adjusted
>> there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
>> they require something
>>
>> some take more adjustment
>> some need readjustment from time to time
>> some don't
>>
>> pretty simple
>
> Well actually the MiniMax rep swapped blades on the MM16, the demo saw
> that had no guides at all. All he had to do was retention the blade
> after changing it, and that was a single adjustment before he restarted
> the saw. Not totally unlike changing out a blade on a TS. Until you
> have actually worked with a saw of this caliber it is hard to understand
> how well they work.
Agreed. I haven't touched the tracking adjustment on my MM16 since I
first got it set correctly. After changing blades I just re-tension and
set the guides (this is going between a 3/8" and 1").
> Sure you have to tension the blade but I use the built in gauge and that
> is good enough and you do have to adjust the guides to the width of the
> blade but tracking and blade tension is simply not a factor in the saw
> performing well.
> And while this is an adjustment it is a simple adjustment that requires
> no test cuts or tweaking.
All these tension gauges are simple spring compression meters, generally
not very accurate. I set up my blades originally by measuring the blade
stretch to calculate the proper tension. Once set, I made a new index
mark on the saws tension gauge and just align to the mark when
adjusting. On these saws the exact tension doesn't seem to be very
critical, just ball-park it.
-BR
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 08:27:05 -0700
Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
> If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
> have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax
> has stagnated.
You mean they haven't made any further improvements on the design?
Or no new models or something else?
> My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an
> "Olsen" brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10"
I think I have a couple of Olson blades.
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
> looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar
> Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not
Laguna sells direct too
A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
who the seller was. Might have been rockler
> the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
> but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
> Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
That's a lot of bandsaw
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
> think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
> 70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
> Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.
how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
some companies get out there better than others
I guess I'm a marketing victim
the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
has to get better to get in front of people
> When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
> Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
> perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
> list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
> sale.
good to know
am on the list but not ready to buy
I wonder how their moving sale went?
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:44:49 -0500
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
> Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc
I went to exactly 1 woodworking show and subscribed to exactly 0
woodworking magazines
the show was ok, a guy was scared and turning a 5 foot bowl
maybe from the club local to the venue and picked the short straw
or better yet came up with the idea and volunteered simultaneously
and now you mention kiti another I haven't heard of.
>
> Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more
> prominent in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww
> magazines. Laguna is not new but relative new compared to most of
I make choices quickly some times and not others. I think jet
get out there in front of people
> the brands that I have mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the
> northern Europe area and came to live in California. He loved
> surfing at Laguna beach and apparently named the company
> accordingly. He wanted to introduce European machines to the USA
> lower end consumers, not just at comercial applications.
Seems to have been a good idea.
>
> Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
> different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the
> general public until they started offering through retailers and
> offering Asian versions.
laguna has some high-end CNC stuff and I don't even remember how I
heard about laguna, may have been amazon
On 3/9/15, 1:03 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 08:27:05 -0700
> Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
>> have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax
>> has stagnated.
>
> You mean they haven't made any further improvements on the design?
> Or no new models or something else?
They haven't been as fast to adopt refinements. Mini Max has stayed with
the industrial market, only making one (if I recall correctly) model
that has pushed into the "pro-sumer" market. Laguna has gone full steam
into that market and competition has force them to innovate.
Don't read me wrong, MM still makes great stuff, but for my needs (the
bottom end of the industrial market), The Lagunas now have an edge with
accessories and features.
I needed a saw with at least 16" wheels, the ability for big resaw
capacity, and ability to tension wide blades. At the time, MM was one of
the few producing an affordable saw, everything at lower price points
was still being made with the cast iron columns vs, the MM steel box
beams. It wasn't long after that other mfgs started to make steel box
beam saws (Jet comes to mind). Evolution in action. I actually wish I
had bought the 18" since the 16" was a bit small to properly run the
carbide blades without eventual fatigue cracking of the blade metal (the
blades were thicker and the smaller radius of the wheels became a
factor. I believe newer carbide blades are now available with thinner
blade stock so I am probably ok running one on a 16", but my needs have
changed a bit and the standard resaw blades work perfectly (without
having to pay the exorbitant prices for carbide)
Check out the web sites. The MM still looks much like mine, after more
than a decade. Improvements are a better table tilt (mine is rock solid,
but very user unfriendly), and improved guides. Power and capacity are
also a bit better. Laguna has many more options available.
Given more time and demand, I'm sure MM will re-design their stuff and
be on top again. One big draw to MM at the time was superb customer
service. The initial order and delivery was flawless. Based on reports I
read, that has slipped a bit (although I have never had anything break
where I required four star service). Laguna had spotty service at the
time I ordered and when I couldn't get basic questions answered, I
bought the MM and never looked back.
The big shocker to me however is the prices (more than 2x what I paid)
-BR
>
>> My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an
>> "Olsen" brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10"
>
> I think I have a couple of Olson blades.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 3/10/15, 9:50 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
>> think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
>> 70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
>> Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.
>
> how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
> some companies get out there better than others
> I guess I'm a marketing victim
>
> the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
> has to get better to get in front of people
As with MM/Laguna at the time, they were industrial machines and were
sold to industry. Finding them was pretty much word of mouth. Now that
they have entered the fray of the lower end markets, advertising is much
more critical.
-BR
>
>
>> When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
>> Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
>> perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
>> list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
>> sale.
>
> good to know
> am on the list but not ready to buy
>
> I wonder how their moving sale went?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>
>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>> for this application
>>>
>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>
>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>> stripped.
>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>> handle
>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>
>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>> as the original handle
>>>
>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>
>>>
>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>> i lose and they lose
>>>
>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>
>>
>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>> have purchased.
>
> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
> though.
I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion. That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.
Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>
>> Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
>> replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
>> competitive brand.
>>
>>
>>
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
>>>>>> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
>>>>>> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
>>>>>> so far it seems to be fine
>>>>>> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
>>>>>> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
>>>>>> for this application
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
>>>>>> stripped.
>>>>>> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
>>>>>> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
>>>>>> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
>>>>>> handle
>>>>>> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
>>>>>> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
>>>>>> as the original handle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
>>>>>> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
>>>>>> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
>>>>>> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
>>>>>> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
>>>>>> i lose and they lose
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
>>>>> quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
>>>>> machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
>>>>> have purchased.
>>>>
>>>> I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
>>>> equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
>>>> though.
>>>
>>> I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
>>> time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
>>> trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
>>> While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
>>> IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
>>> the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
>>> that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
>>> supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
>>> had a broken trunnion.
>>
>> I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
>> been great (wish I could play with it).
>>
>>> That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
>>> owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
>>> the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
>>> roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
>>> had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
>>> even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
>>> replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
>>
>> The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
>> capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
>> $3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
>> represent income, rather outgo.
>>
>> When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
>> Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
>> out about that time and I bought it instead.
>
>I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
>loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
>expensive piece of equipment.
I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
(three pulleys).
>>
>>> Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
>>> fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
>>> Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
>>> Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
>>> those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.
>>>
>>> And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
>>> prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
>>> I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
>>> in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
>>> Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
>>> too but still north of $3K.
>>
>> Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
>> the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
>> Unisaws under $1000?
>
>No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
>the $2500~$2700 range.
Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
when they came out.
>
>>
>>> Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
>>> blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
>>> of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.
>>>
>> Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)
>>
>I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.
>
WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
the bars. ;-)
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
>> better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
>> woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
>> tools that I have purchased.
>
>I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
>to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
>bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon
I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
10-351. It won't be soon, though.
>
>
>> Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
>> replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
>> competitive brand.
>
>this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
>engineering which includes bad choices for materials
>
>jet saw short-term sales by lowering quality but long term they
>now will see diminished customer loyalty and lower sales
>
>mutually assured disappointment
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
On 3/10/2015 11:32 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Never had heard of felder or hammer
>> they are together now and the products look similar
>
>> Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
>> the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
>> early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
>> some of Jet andPowermatic products.
>
> Much of the Felder and Hammer stuff I've seen was geared more towards
> commercial shops... European designs, big stuff, relatively expensive.
> Not that a well heeled hobbyist with lots of space wouldn't be
> interested... ;~) I like their sliding table saws, the big
> jointer/planners, and shapers. If I hit a big lottery of some sort I
> could see having a big shop full of the stuff.... ;~)
>
> The first time I saw Felder tools in person Frank Klausz was manning the
> booth and playing with a jointer/planner...
>
> John
>
>
It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro
machines. But they are geared to the committed and commercial
applications. I was real close to going with the Laguna TSS with
scoring blade. My Jet cabinet saw was only 13 years old but my wife
indicated that she would not mind me upgrading to the Industrial SawStop
after watching me perform an operation that made her a bit concerned.
The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra perks but would have been
about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In the end the safety of
the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar American style
operational set up.
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> 8' is a "long bed"? It's the standard F150 bed, except the king cab
>> has a 7'.
>
>No, standard bed on a full-size pickup is 6'6". The double
>door models have a bed of 5'6". 8' is long bed, you can
>get that with extended cab, but if you want it with the
>full double doors you have to go to a 3/4 or 1 ton model.
You're right, of course. I was thinking about the frame I use for 12'
lumber (etc.). It hangs off the *tailgate* four feet, so the bed is
6-1/2' with 18" for the tailgate. Of course sheet goods fit in the
bed nicely (with the tailgate down ;-).
It's been so long since I carried anything in it that I forgot. ;-)
...couple of more months...
>The big problem with a long bed is the truck ends up with
>a huge turning circle - 53' for mine (I hate to think what
>it is for a crew cab F250). That makes things like parking
>and u-turns (need 4 lanes of road) a pain.
Yes, a standard bed with a full size truck is bad enough. Another
1-1/2 feet would make it unmanageable. It wouldn't fit in my garage,
either. ;-)
On 3/1/2015 10:54 AM, Leon wrote:
> There are basically 3 length boxes. 8', 6' and more recently the 4.5~5'
> boxes found on the larger full 4 door models. My Tundra is 4 door but
> not the larger full 4 door and it has the 6' bed. While my truck has
> plenty of room in the back seat, ask Swingman, it does not have as much
> room as the full sized 4 door version. Those, at least the one on the
> Tundra have back seats that move forward and backward like the front
> seats and let you stretch your legs out.
Some guys have all the luck. They get the truck, the saw(s), and the cook.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:l4xHw.1932473
> [email protected]:
>
>> Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
>> opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
>> in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
>> metal version. Might have to make one.
>>
>> I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
>> that is used on many cars to limit weight.
>
> The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
> a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
>
> The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
> The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
> part, if not more.
>
> John
>
I hear what you are saying but many plastic parts on door strikers and
latches provide more cushion than metal, keeps the noise down.
On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
> on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
> tools I have that are made by Jet.
>
> I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
> so far it seems to be fine
> the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
> a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
> for this application
>
> I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it
>
> for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
> stripped.
> the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
> tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
> was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
> handle
> I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
> made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen
>
> I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
> as the original handle
>
> also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
> was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
> the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
> replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good
>
>
> all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
> they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
> i lose and they lose
>
> a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment
I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.
Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 00:07:01 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
>>wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
>>and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
>>Purely for show.
>
> They come without hitches? Mine (F150 6-1/2' bed, extended cab), came
> with the receiver, though not the ball. I grabbed the ball I
> installed on my '01 Ranger.
I imagine they take them off when they add the lift kit, 22" wheels,
6" exhaust tip, roo-bars, and all the other "hey look at me" stuff.
John
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:53:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb wrote:
>
>>
>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>
>I have to wonder what people are trying to say when they make that
>statement. My Silverado is an extended cab with a 6 1/2' box. I plow snow
>with it, run to the dump with it, pick up lumber with it, and all sorts of
>other things. Just what is this real "trucks" things people talk about? I
>can carry 12' lumber in my box. Does that make it a truck? It's too short
>for 16' lumber - does that make it "not a truck"? I never did understand
>this thought that a truck had to have an 8 foot box.
They're trying to look down their nose at others, so they can feel
superior. If you want to drive a truck instead of a car, why should I
care?
On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 00:07:01 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Even out here in farm and oil country I'd guess 75% of even 2DR are
>> shortbeds because 80% are "townies", not really ever used as trucks.
>
>Around here you see a lot of the 4 door, extra-short bed
>trucks because people use them to pull boats. An SUV
>would be more practical, but the pickups are cheaper.
I always wondered what the purpose of the Explorer Sport Trak was.
Whatever floats your boat.
>OTOH, you also see a lot of dualies with aftermarket
>wheels, lift kits, bed covers, and no trailer hitch,
>and you know those are just d*ck size compensation.
>Purely for show.
They come without hitches? Mine (F150 6-1/2' bed, extended cab), came
with the receiver, though not the ball. I grabbed the ball I
installed on my '01 Ranger.