dewalt batteries in firestorm drills.

In article <[email protected]>, toller <[email protected]> wrote:
>> FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
>> current it could damage the FS drill.
>>
>Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
>Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current is the
>same.
>
>Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.
>
>

I don't think the DW batteries would cause any problems with the B&D
drill, but, simply applying Ohms law to the load in a battery powered
circuit is a little bit of an over simplification. It's quite
possible, and actually likely, that the higher-rated DeWalt 18V
batteries will allow the drill to draw more current, (and produce more
heat & sparks) than the stock B&D batteries.




--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> thanks for the advice, all. i called b&d and they warned that the
> dewalt batteries can supply more current, and there is a chance that
> it will burn the motor up.

I don't understand that. 18V is still 18V.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news

> > before i left my drill for repairs, i had used the dewalt batteries a
> > couple times and the motor had been sparking up a storm. i dont know
> > whether this was some other problem, or a dewalt battery
> > incompatibility problem.
>
> Normal for a universal motor. It will do that with the FS battery also.


well, i wasnt clear enough. yes, you can see my drill sparking a bit
in normal operation if you peek through the grill, but before i brough
it in to be repaired it was sparking and *smoking*. enough to make the
whole room smell. i've gotten good use out of this drill, and wanted
it repaired. i went to the dewalt service center, ready to pay up, and
they told me it was under recall warranty and replaced both the
recall-defective switch, *and* the motor and pinion assembly, which i
assume was becuase it was damaged and/or charred;)

they did not do the work themselves, so i couldnt ask what the motor
was replaced for, but im pretty sure it has nothing to do with the
recall.

thank you for all the posts, youve helped me understand the issues. i
think that we have no definitive answer yet. as a car battery analogy,
i guess that the dewalt battery has not only a higher Ah rating, but
also a higher 'cranking' amp rating, and that under high load
conditions this could be too much for hte motor. when the motor went
smoky on me i was driving 3" drywall screws into hardwood with
undersized pilots, so this might come as a surprise to no one.

thanks for your advice,
anthony

[email protected] (Lawrence Wasserman) wrote in message news
> I don't think the DW batteries would cause any problems with the B&D
> drill, but, simply applying Ohms law to the load in a battery powered
> circuit is a little bit of an over simplification. It's quite
> possible, and actually likely, that the higher-rated DeWalt 18V
> batteries will allow the drill to draw more current, (and produce more
> heat & sparks) than the stock B&D batteries.


thanks for the advice, all. i called b&d and they warned that the
dewalt batteries can supply more current, and there is a chance that
it will burn the motor up. given what i learned in this thread, and my
past experience, id say that is exactly what i did with my drill. good
thing the 40 dollar repair was covered becuase the drill was in for a
recall.

that said, i guess ill stick with my FS batteries. if anyone wants to
buy a couple used 18v dewalt batteries (old post style) let me know.

anthony

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<AJxkd.12271
> Um, B&D in in business to sell and make money. How much money do you think
> the B&D division will make if you buy DeWalt batteries.

well, given the profit motive i asked here first to get a little
edjucashun. but given all i know now i think they're telling it
straight. besides, i cant imagine the bd division is really in heated
competition with the dewalt folks.

> That said, I know
> that DeWalt offers higher amp rate batteries in the same voltages. Funny
> the highter amp replacement batteries have no ill effect on the older
> drills.

dewalt drills might have better components ('might?' im sure they do)
that can handle a battery upgrade. the new batteries are longer life
(more Ah) or as you suggest- more current per unit time? i know that
there are long life batteries out for a variety of cordless tools, but
that doesnt necessarily mean their batteries will put out higher
currents, and therefore wouldnt necessarily be burning motors like my
own out.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > thanks for the advice, all. i called b&d and they warned that the
> > dewalt batteries can supply more current, and there is a chance that
> > it will burn the motor up.
>
> I don't understand that. 18V is still 18V.

the way i understand it, 4A of 18V is a different bird than 2A at 18V,
and the motor just might not like the former. (current figures not
real, logic possibly mistaken too;)

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<x8Ckd.12329
> Um like GMC trucks are not in heated competition with Chevrolet...
> Oldsmobile lost the battle. I assure you there is fierce competition within
> the ranks of a group of related companies. The better your sales the bigger
> piece of the pie that you get.

fair enough, but i really dont think that the young lady on the phone
with me at b&d was thinking along those lines.

> The battery is not gong to force the drill to use more current than it
> requests. If you feel safer with the same brand batteries go with that as
> you set your own limit of risk. Keep in mind however that battery
> rebuilders often use much higher amp hour rating cells when they rebuild
> your pack. If you burn your drill up regardless of which battery you use it
> is because you pushed the drill beyond its limits and not because you made
> available more power.

well, i'd rather have a battery that i know will never nuke my motor,
given that ive already been burned once. literally.

you are saying use the dewalt battery pack, and be aware of the
limitations. this would be like driving a car which would suffer
engine damage if you went over 55mph. doable, but nerve wracking.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<J0Rkd.12528
> No, I am saying regardless of what battery pack you use if you push the
> drill beyond its limits it will eventually fail. A weaker battery pack will
> still burn the motor up if the motor is under a constant strain. Having a
> stronger battery pack may supply the power to ease the strain.

well, i guess i still have to play it conservative. i dont have any
way of quantifying whether or not i should expect theoretical damage
to the drill, and my practical experience seems to match up with the
doomsayer version of the dewalt-firestorm debate.

thanks for your help, though.

anthony

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> > > current it could damage the FS drill.
> > >
> > Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
> > Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current is
> the
> > same.
> >
> > Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.
> >
> >
>
> Wrong. Current is only constant at a constant load. Hog the drill down
and
> you'll draw more current. It's possible that the DeWalt batteries supply
> enough more current than the FS batteries to damage the motor if you
really
> load it down. Don't know for sure, since I don't know what the difference
> between the batteries is.
> --
You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply enough
current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind, so
the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
Gosh, I hope you are not serious.

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/woodworking/dewalt-batteries-in-firestorm-drills-285618-.htm
nopcbs wrote:
If we are talking using a higher voltage battery in a tool designed for a
lower voltage battery, then, yeah, you can do some damage...especially in
extended runs. However, putting any 18v battery as the energy source for
ANY 18v drill is NOT going to hurt the drill at all. 18v is 18 v and it
matters zip where it comes from. What the differences in the batteries do
determine is how long the drill will run in normal use and (if the drill
motor has to work against a too high load)how easilly it will stall
because you have drained the battery against a stalling load.

Now if you stall the drill then you can damage it using a larger capacity
18v battery simply because the better battery will not go dead as quickly
as the weaker one will and you will be running current through a stalled
motor longer, over-heating it and damaging it. The weaker (less current
capacity) 18v battery will be delivering near 0v while the better battery
will still be supplying 18 v.

Don't abuse the drill, and it will thrive with either battery...it will
just do it longer w/o recharging with the better battery.

- nopcbs
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, toller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out
>>> more
>>> current it could damage the FS drill.
>>>
>>Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
>>Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the
>> current is the
>>same.
>>
>>Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.
>>
>>

> I don't think the DW batteries would cause any problems with the
> B&D
> drill, but, simply applying Ohms law to the load in a battery powered
> circuit is a little bit of an over simplification. It's quite
> possible, and actually likely, that the higher-rated DeWalt 18V
> batteries will allow the drill to draw more current, (and produce more
> heat & sparks) than the stock B&D batteries.






-------------------------------------
- nopcbs (none of the time)

"Lawrence Wasserman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> When you turn on the tool the voltage across the battery drops, you
> can demonstrate this with a voltmeter on your car pretty easily. in
> fact in some cars with voltmeters on the dash you can see it from the
> drivers seat. The voltage drop will be less with a higher rated battery,
> so more current will flow through the circuit. The key to
> understanding this is that batteries have resistance too.
> --
>
> Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
> [email protected]
>

Thanks. I understand basic electricity, but I'm not an EE

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Lawrence Wasserman) wrote in message news

thanks for the advice, all. i called b&d and they warned that the
> dewalt batteries can supply more current, and there is a chance that
> it will burn the motor up.

Um, B&D in in business to sell and make money. How much money do you think
the B&D division will make if you buy DeWalt batteries. That said, I know
that DeWalt offers higher amp rate batteries in the same voltages. Funny
the highter amp replacement batteries have no ill effect on the older
drills.

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


i picked
> up my firestorm from the service place today after a recall repair,
> and asked the fellow at the counter if a dewalt battery was ok in the
> FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> current it could damage the FS drill.

That guy was an does not know what he is talking about.


> before i left my drill for repairs, i had used the dewalt batteries a
> couple times and the motor had been sparking up a storm. i dont know
> whether this was some other problem, or a dewalt battery
> incompatibility problem.

Normal for a universal motor. It will do that with the FS battery also.

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply
enough
> current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind, so
> the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
> Gosh, I hope you are not serious.

Why is that? I've seen where some independent rebuilders (such as
Primecell) offer higher capacity batteries for replacement of factory packs.
Given the voltage is the same, what does a higher output do?

If you plug a corded drill into a 110 outlet, it works the same on a 15a or
a 20a circuit.

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> The battery is not gong to force the drill to use more current than it
>> requests. If you feel safer with the same brand batteries go with that
>> as
>> you set your own limit of risk. Keep in mind however that battery
>> rebuilders often use much higher amp hour rating cells when they rebuild
>> your pack. If you burn your drill up regardless of which battery you use
>> it
>> is because you pushed the drill beyond its limits and not because you
>> made
>> available more power.
>
> well, i'd rather have a battery that i know will never nuke my motor,
> given that ive already been burned once. literally.
>
> you are saying use the dewalt battery pack, and be aware of the
> limitations. this would be like driving a car which would suffer
> engine damage if you went over 55mph. doable, but nerve wracking.

No, I am saying regardless of what battery pack you use if you push the
drill beyond its limits it will eventually fail. A weaker battery pack will
still burn the motor up if the motor is under a constant strain. Having a
stronger battery pack may supply the power to ease the strain.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply
> enough
> > current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind,
so
> > the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
> > Gosh, I hope you are not serious.
>
> Why is that? I've seen where some independent rebuilders (such as
> Primecell) offer higher capacity batteries for replacement of factory
packs.
> Given the voltage is the same, what does a higher output do?

Uh, maybe it runs longer without needing to be recharged? Or, in some
circumstances it might be designed to support higher amp outputs.
The classic example is a battery made for starting a car and a battery made
for a trolling motor. They might be identical voltages and amphours, but
have completely different output capacities.

OTOH, since the DW battery and the the FS batteries are both made to power
pretty similar drills, it is absurd to think that a DW battery could fit a
FS drill, yet damage it somehow.
>
> If you plug a corded drill into a 110 outlet, it works the same on a 15a
or
> a 20a circuit.
>
Not if it is an 18a drill it doesn't.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply
> enough
> > current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind,
so
> > the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
> > Gosh, I hope you are not serious.
>
> Why is that? I've seen where some independent rebuilders (such as
> Primecell) offer higher capacity batteries for replacement of factory
packs.
> Given the voltage is the same, what does a higher output do?
>
> If you plug a corded drill into a 110 outlet, it works the same on a 15a
or
> a 20a circuit.
>
>

No, but if you plug a drill rated for 15A into a circuit with a 20A breaker
and bog it down it will draw more than it's rated current. Drills don't
typically have thermal protection built in.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > > You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply
> > enough
> > > current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind,
> so
> > > the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
> > > Gosh, I hope you are not serious.
> >
> > Why is that? I've seen where some independent rebuilders (such as
> > Primecell) offer higher capacity batteries for replacement of factory
> packs.
> > Given the voltage is the same, what does a higher output do?
>
> Uh, maybe it runs longer without needing to be recharged? Or, in some
> circumstances it might be designed to support higher amp outputs.
> The classic example is a battery made for starting a car and a battery
made
> for a trolling motor. They might be identical voltages and amphours, but
> have completely different output capacities.
>
> OTOH, since the DW battery and the the FS batteries are both made to power
> pretty similar drills, it is absurd to think that a DW battery could fit a
> FS drill, yet damage it somehow.
> >

Hope you're not still referring to my post.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> OTOH, since the DW battery and the the FS batteries are both made to power
> pretty similar drills, it is absurd to think that a DW battery could fit a
> FS drill, yet damage it somehow.

That's what I thought but did not want "ass u me" anything.

> FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> current it could damage the FS drill.
>
Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current is the
same.

Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> > current it could damage the FS drill.
> >
> Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
> Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current is
the
> same.
>
> Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.
>
>

Wrong. Current is only constant at a constant load. Hog the drill down and
you'll draw more current. It's possible that the DeWalt batteries supply
enough more current than the FS batteries to damage the motor if you really
load it down. Don't know for sure, since I don't know what the difference
between the batteries is.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>
> No, but if you plug a drill rated for 15A into a circuit with a 20A
> breaker
> and bog it down it will draw more than it's rated current. Drills don't
> typically have thermal protection built in.


I can assure you that if you plug a 15 amp drill into a 15 amp circuit and
bog it down it too will burn up. The rated circuit is not to protect the
tool.

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> > > > current it could damage the FS drill.
> > > >
> > > Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
> > > Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current
is
> > the
> > > same.
> > >
> > > Since they fit, and the drill runs, they are the same.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Wrong. Current is only constant at a constant load. Hog the drill down
> and
> > you'll draw more current. It's possible that the DeWalt batteries
supply
> > enough more current than the FS batteries to damage the motor if you
> really
> > load it down. Don't know for sure, since I don't know what the
difference
> > between the batteries is.
> > --
> You are suggesting the FS batteries are really lousy and can't supply
enough
> current at low resistances. The drill was designed with that in mind, so
> the higher capacity DW batteries will damage it.
> Gosh, I hope you are not serious.
>
>

I'm saying that a battery designed to supply a higher mAH rating than
another is not the same battery despite the fact that both provide the same
output voltage. Read my last sentence before you jump - I clearly stated
that I don't know what the rated difference between the batteries is.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >
> > > thanks for the advice, all. i called b&d and they warned that the
> > > dewalt batteries can supply more current, and there is a chance that
> > > it will burn the motor up.
> >
> > I don't understand that. 18V is still 18V.
>
> the way i understand it, 4A of 18V is a different bird than 2A at 18V,
> and the motor just might not like the former. (current figures not
> real, logic possibly mistaken too;)

But does not the motor draw the amps versus the battery pushing the amps?
Corded tools draw only a few amps, but are commonly plugged into circuits
capable of supplying 15, 20, or 30 amps.

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > FS drill. he said that because the dewalt battery kicks out more
> > current it could damage the FS drill.
> >
> Current equals voltage divided by resistance.
> Since resistance is the same and they are both 18v, then the current is the
> same.

Well, I dunno about the dewalt battery situation, but your answer is
overly simplistic and not accurate; batteries have different internal
resistances/maximum current capabilities so it is quite possible that
two batteries of the same voltage will have vastly different current
outputs in some situations, particularly when driving a heavy load. It
is because of this -- for example -- that some old photographic flashes
can be damaged by some of the new rechargables.

Now I will admit that most likely it will work out fine, just wanted to
point out that your logic can backfire.

PK

In article <[email protected]>,
Edwin Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>But does not the motor draw the amps versus the battery pushing the amps?
>Corded tools draw only a few amps, but are commonly plugged into circuits
>capable of supplying 15, 20, or 30 amps.
>
>

When you turn on the tool the voltage across the battery drops, you
can demonstrate this with a voltmeter on your car pretty easily. in
fact in some cars with voltmeters on the dash you can see it from the
drivers seat. The voltage drop will be less with a higher rated battery,
so more current will flow through the circuit. The key to
understanding this is that batteries have resistance too.
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> Wrong. Current is only constant at a constant load. Hog the drill down
> and
> you'll draw more current. It's possible that the DeWalt batteries supply
> enough more current than the FS batteries to damage the motor if you
> really
> load it down. Don't know for sure, since I don't know what the difference
> between the batteries is.


Um the problem with that is that if you bog the drill down with a weak
battery you will stand the chance of burning up the motor. If you have
enough power in a stronger battery the drill may not bog down at all. Sorta
like the advantage of 220 volt over 110 bolt. Less voltage drop and the
motor runs cooler when strained.

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<AJxkd.12271
>> Um, B&D in in business to sell and make money. How much money do you
>> think
>> the B&D division will make if you buy DeWalt batteries.
>
> well, given the profit motive i asked here first to get a little
> edjucashun. but given all i know now i think they're telling it
> straight. besides, i cant imagine the bd division is really in heated
> competition with the dewalt folks.

Um like GMC trucks are not in heated competition with Chevrolet...
Oldsmobile lost the battle. I assure you there is fierce competition within
the ranks of a group of related companies. The better your sales the bigger
piece of the pie that you get.
>
>> That said, I know
>> that DeWalt offers higher amp rate batteries in the same voltages. Funny
>> the highter amp replacement batteries have no ill effect on the older
>> drills.
>
> dewalt drills might have better components ('might?' im sure they do)
> that can handle a battery upgrade. the new batteries are longer life
> (more Ah) or as you suggest- more current per unit time? i know that
> there are long life batteries out for a variety of cordless tools, but
> that doesnt necessarily mean their batteries will put out higher
> currents, and therefore wouldnt necessarily be burning motors like my own
> out.


The battery is not gong to force the drill to use more current than it
requests. If you feel safer with the same brand batteries go with that as
you set your own limit of risk. Keep in mind however that battery
rebuilders often use much higher amp hour rating cells when they rebuild
your pack. If you burn your drill up regardless of which battery you use it
is because you pushed the drill beyond its limits and not because you made
available more power.