Hello, all!
I've been lurking this group for a few weeks now, and many thanks
for all the tips I've picked up so far. I'm a framing carpenter, and I've
just dried in a house for myself. (to live in, not to sell) I've decided
that I can get away with building my own set of cabinets, since SWMBO is
both practical and thrifty almost beyond belief.
The set is to be face frame, and painted with brush and roller.
I think I've got the construction pretty well worked out, but I've got one
question that needs to be addressed pretty soon, namely, what material for
the doors and drawer faces?
This set will be pretty plain, with just rounded over 3/4" thick
overlaid doors and faces. The choices I seem to have locally are: 3/4"
veneer cored birch ply, and 3/4" MDF cored birch panel.
My problem is that I don't have any real experience with finishing
either of these. I'd expect that the ply will have some voids and grain
structure on the rounded edge that will need filling and sanding, but will
it be so much that the time involved will be ridiculous? Likewise, I'd
expect that the MDF panel will have a fair amount of "fur" on the rounded
edge that will need to be sanded down. Should the MDF be hit with something
like sanding sealer and smoothed before painting?
I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so I'd sure
like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
Luke Kilpatrick.
"Well I've been to one Worlds Fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and that's
the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones!"
--Maj.Kong, "Dr Strangelove"
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> Although I haven't had a chance to start finishing the door
edges yet, I
> made two doors from 3/4 birch ply with rounded edges. I'm going to
try a
> couple of purpose-made wood fillers, and if those don't give good
results,
> I may try good old Bondo.
Leave the Bondo to the junk yard repairs, use epoxy thickened with
micro-balloons. At least then you will be working with a real adhesive.
> I'm up to sixteen clamps now, and expect to get more before
long.
Take your pick, harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot.
They all sell 2" spring clamps for about $1 apiece, in bags of 6-12.
Not the best, but when you need a clamp..........
Lew
"James L Kilpatrick" wrote
> Speaking of tiles, I'm planning to tile the counters. 1/2" ply
> underlayment with backer board on top of the cabinets, followed by ceramic
> tile. any special advice on sealing, anyone?
>
> Thanks for the input!
>
> Luke
I tiled this countertop 20 years ago. I used silicone grout sealer to seal
the grout.
The underlayment is 3/4" MDO.
http://tinyurl.com/yw78bd
Max
On Mar 3, 10:43 pm, James L Kilpatrick <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Max wrote:
>
> > "James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Hello, all!
>
> >> I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so I'd sure
> >> like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
>
> >> Luke Kilpatrick.
>
> > I would think that a frame and panel arrangement would be better. MDF
> > will be heavy and will require some type of hinge stronger than a regular
> > cabinet hinge.
> > The doors on these bookcases are made from Poplar frames (1 5/8") with
> > 1/4" plywood panels.
> >http://tinyurl.com/3372z7
>
> > The small sink here is MDF.
> >http://tinyurl.com/27jeak
>
> > Max
>
> Hmmm..
>
> SWMBO has given me one mandate. The doors MUST be flat and
> featureless. It's a cleaning issue. I'm starting to wonder about flush
> framing 1/2" ply with Poplar now, as the consensus is to avoid the edge
> problems of ply.
>
> Can that be done without a biscuit joiner, or should I bite the
> bullet and get one? The gaps I can fill, as long as I get the faces flush.
>
> Thanks!
> Luke
this is the way to go. you don't need a biscuit jointer for this at
all. rip up the solid stock for edging to about 1/4" wider than the
ply is thick, by about 1/2" thick. spread both mating surfaces with
glue, center it on the edge and "clamp" it with strips of masking tape
about every 3" or so. when the glue dries, trim the edges flush with a
router, block plane, belt sander, scraper or whatever tool you prefer
for such tasks. don't bother trying to miter the corners. they will be
hidden under the paint. do 2 sides with the panel a bit oversize, trim
and do the other 2.
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> The=A0whole=A0reason=A0for=A0building=A0my=A0own=A0is=A0to=A0save=A0m=
oney.=A0I=A0can=A0spend=A0a
> little, say $300 for tooling, without screwing the budget. I've consi=
dered a
> cheap table saw, but haven't convinced myself yet. (I HATE cheap tool=
s) I
> have already allocated money ( $150), for clamps.
IMO, even a cheap table saw will outperform a circular saw with guides,=
unless
you want to spring for the fancy Festool one. Look for a refurbished D=
eWalt,
Porter-Cable, or Bosch benchtop table saw - or a good used one if you'r=
e
lucky.
--=20
It's turtles, all the way down
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> As I said, I'm a framer. I have a good circular saw, a good
> router,
> a good miter saw, and a good drill.
<snip>
A good circular saw and a simple jig is all you need to make cuts
suitable for glue ups.
Start with a piece of 1/4 ply, say 12 x 48.
Glue on a piece of 1/2 ply, say 4 x 48 that is centered on the 1/4 ply.
Now run you saw down one side of the of the 1/2 using the narrow side of
the plate, then run saw down the other side of the 1/2 using the wide
side of the plate.
Add a couple of 3" C-Clamps and you now have a cutting jig that will
give dead nuts results.
Have fun.
Lew
Leuf wrote:
> You don't want to edge profile plywood, even painted you'll still see
> the laminations. Poplar is pretty much the standard cheap hardwood
> that takes paint well.
>
>
> -Leuf
I plan to use poplar for the face frames, but since I don't have
a jointer, I don't think I can glue up panels of poplar for the doors. That
leaves sheet goods of some kind. I've seen both plywood and MDF core used
in cabinets, so I know it "can" be done, even if it's not the preferred
material. I'm basically just trying to minimize the amount of work to
finish the edges of whatever I end up using.
Thanks!
Luke
>>
>
> I have a good friend who took somewhat over 8 years to finish the kitchen
> upgrade & remodel. His wife is one of the more patient people I know. ;)
>
> Patriarch
Those women are incredibly rare, but a few of them are out there. One of my
closest friends has been building their house for over ten years. It still
isn't complete. When they "moved in" it was one room with a commode, sink,
and range. That's now the laundry room, and the place is 1,800' sq. and
counting!
Luke
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:48:11 GMT, Pat Barber
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Speed,speed,speed is everything when the "little woman"
>gets to talking about cooking Christmas dinner in her
>new kitchen and you are still doing glue-ups on the panels
>to make 50 cabinet doors. (no pressure there)
A tangent
http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/index.html
Scroll down to Sweet Justice
Mark
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> A good circular saw and a simple jig is all you need to make cuts
> suitable for glue ups.
>
> Start with a piece of 1/4 ply, say 12 x 48.
>
> Glue on a piece of 1/2 ply, say 4 x 48 that is centered on the 1/4 ply.
>
> Now run you saw down one side of the of the 1/2 using the narrow side of
> the plate, then run saw down the other side of the 1/2 using the wide
> side of the plate.
>
> Add a couple of 3" C-Clamps and you now have a cutting jig that will
> give dead nuts results.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
Now, that right there is a MUCH better design than the setup I was
planning. Easier to clamp and more flexible, too. Thanks!
Luke
You will burn a lot of time getting edge grain plywood to look even half
decent. I wouldn't trust the MDF cored plywood to handle dings and
scrapes--they do happen in a kitchen.
I'd go for the solid wood poplar for my choice.
Or--is there a cabinet shop that owes you a favor? Ask them to build the
doors and drawer faces, to your dimensions, and you install and finish them.
They can probably build them for what you will have to pay for material.
Good luck--even a small kitchen is a big project, especially in your spare
time.
Old Guy
With sore hands from removing all of 90SF of tile from his kitchen floor.
"James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, all!
>
> I've been lurking this group for a few weeks now, and many thanks
> for all the tips I've picked up so far. I'm a framing carpenter, and I've
> just dried in a house for myself. (to live in, not to sell) I've decided
> that I can get away with building my own set of cabinets, since SWMBO is
> both practical and thrifty almost beyond belief.
>
> The set is to be face frame, and painted with brush and roller.
> I think I've got the construction pretty well worked out, but I've got one
> question that needs to be addressed pretty soon, namely, what material for
> the doors and drawer faces?
>
> This set will be pretty plain, with just rounded over 3/4" thick
> overlaid doors and faces. The choices I seem to have locally are: 3/4"
> veneer cored birch ply, and 3/4" MDF cored birch panel.
>
> My problem is that I don't have any real experience with finishing
> either of these. I'd expect that the ply will have some voids and grain
> structure on the rounded edge that will need filling and sanding, but will
> it be so much that the time involved will be ridiculous? Likewise, I'd
> expect that the MDF panel will have a fair amount of "fur" on the rounded
> edge that will need to be sanded down. Should the MDF be hit with
> something
> like sanding sealer and smoothed before painting?
>
> I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so I'd sure
> like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
>
> Luke Kilpatrick.
>
> "Well I've been to one Worlds Fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and
> that's
> the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones!"
> --Maj.Kong, "Dr Strangelove"
[email protected] wrote:
>> Luke
>
> this is the way to go. you don't need a biscuit jointer for this at
> all. rip up the solid stock for edging to about 1/4" wider than the
> ply is thick, by about 1/2" thick. spread both mating surfaces with
> glue, center it on the edge and "clamp" it with strips of masking tape
> about every 3" or so. when the glue dries, trim the edges flush with a
> router, block plane, belt sander, scraper or whatever tool you prefer
> for such tasks. don't bother trying to miter the corners. they will be
> hidden under the paint. do 2 sides with the panel a bit oversize, trim
> and do the other 2.
OK, I'm getting onboard with the framed doors, but RIGHT NOW, I
should disclose my toolset.
As I said, I'm a framer. I have a good circular saw, a good router,
a good miter saw, and a good drill. I have a framing square, straight edges,
tape measures, and chalk lines. I carry a sharp chisel on me at all times.
With the tools I've just listed, I'm quite good. I plan to do all my sawing
with the handheld circular saw, except that I'll be using a straightedge or
saw guide, instead of freehanding it, as I normally do.
The whole reason for building my own is to save money. I can spend a
little, say $300 for tooling, without screwing the budget. I've considered a
cheap table saw, but haven't convinced myself yet. (I HATE cheap tools) I
have already allocated money ( $150), for clamps.
I know it's crazy to try building cabinets with these tools, but I'm
crazy. Just ask anyone who knows me! I'm not looking to put cabinet shops
out of business, just to get my cabinets to look half decent.
As long as they're small accent lines, I can probably talk SWMBO
into a v-groove at the joint of ply and poplar.
With all that in mind, here's another question. Cheap table saw? Yes or no.
I can hold 1/16" tolerance freehand for 8' with my trusty Milwaukee, so
take that into account.
This is fun, by the way. Thanks!
Luke
Patriarch wrote:
>>
>
> OK. That's the spirit! We've got him at the top pf the slope. A
> little nudge, and down he goes! ;-)
>
> Here's the thing you may not have considered: When doing drawers or
> doors, or anything else in multiples, it takes a bunch of clamps to get
> the glueups through to sufficiently cured. I don't want to think of how
> much cash I dropped on the pile of clamps hiding in the garage shop.
> And I used maybe 24 of them on just one cabinet's worth of drawers
> Saturday.
>
> Plan your work so that you can do this a little each evening, and maybe
> some early in the morning, before you leave. Or raid a friend's shop
> for a week.
>
> Patriarch
Yep, I came in tonight with an armload of clamps, and SWMBO couldn't
believe it when I told her that I expected to need at LEAST three times
that many once I got started in earnest. I had to explain that I couldn't
just do one drawer at a time if I wanted to get the job done in a
reasonable time frame. Clamps are definitely going to be the biggest single
tool cost for these cabinets.
Luke
"James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, all!
> I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so I'd sure
> like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
>
> Luke Kilpatrick.
I would think that a frame and panel arrangement would be better. MDF will
be heavy and will require some type of hinge stronger than a regular cabinet
hinge.
The doors on these bookcases are made from Poplar frames (1 5/8") with 1/4"
plywood panels.
http://tinyurl.com/3372z7
The small sink here is MDF.
http://tinyurl.com/27jeak
Max
Using the Kreg jig is a dead simple operation.
For a "basic" box and face frames, it can not be
beat for speed and accuracy.
The "only" tool you need is a 3/8" drill.
You don't have to have a battery drill but that does
speed things up a little. The screws can be set by a
basic screw driver will a long bit.
Go here for the story... http://www.kregtool.com/
and be sure to look here:
http://www.kregtool.com/education_center/index.php#eurostyleCabinets
http://www.kregtool.com/products/ka/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=59
These news groups are about the only useful thing on the web.
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
I had considered going with pocket holes,
but talked myself out of it. The biggest reason is simply
that I don't know enough about where to use them,
and where not to.
I keep saying thanks to you guys, but I promise,
I really do mean it.
dadiOH wrote:
>> I'd sure like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
>
> I'd never use MDF, don't like it. Ply edges would need a LOT of work
> to get a paint job that is reasonable. There are two products that
> could make it faster/easier, both available at auto supply stores such
> as NAPA. First is any Bondo like catalyzed filler to be used for
> voids. Second is glazing compound. The latter comes in a tube and is
> just talc and lacquer (bondo is talc and polyester resin) and is for
> more minor roughness.
>
> Using those two and a decent primer would give you painted edges that
> look like they grew there. Auto body primers are also useful as they
> have high quantity of solids and sand very easily.
>
>
> Given the amount of work to get good painted rounded over edges on
> plywood, I wouldn't do it. I'd leave the ply edges square and cover
> them with a solid wood molding shaped as desired.
>
>
I'm starting to lean toward a framed panel, since pretty much
everyone is in agreement with that being the best route. I'd originally
planned to use bondo or a homemade filled-epoxy concoction to dress the
routed edges of the ply.
Actually, I may well end up doing a couple of small test pieces
and trying both methods out. I'd planned to do a lavatory as a trial run
for the main cabinets anyway, so I might as well use it to experiment on.
Thanks, everyone who has responded so far! This was just the sort
of input I was hoping for, and it's already giving me some fresh
perspectives on the job.
Thanks!
Luke
Mark Jerde wrote:
> "James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I don't have
>> a jointer
>
> You can borrow mine (6" Jet) if you're in driving distance of Bowie MD
> USA. I'm working on some software projects & haven't made significant
> sawdust for a couple months.
>
> -- Mark
Awfully nice of you to offer! Unfortunately, I live way down in
Alabama, so no can do.
Thanks!
Luke
Max wrote:
>
> "James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hello, all!
>
>> I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so I'd sure
>> like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
>>
>> Luke Kilpatrick.
>
> I would think that a frame and panel arrangement would be better. MDF
> will be heavy and will require some type of hinge stronger than a regular
> cabinet hinge.
> The doors on these bookcases are made from Poplar frames (1 5/8") with
> 1/4" plywood panels.
> http://tinyurl.com/3372z7
>
> The small sink here is MDF.
> http://tinyurl.com/27jeak
>
> Max
Hmmm..
SWMBO has given me one mandate. The doors MUST be flat and
featureless. It's a cleaning issue. I'm starting to wonder about flush
framing 1/2" ply with Poplar now, as the consensus is to avoid the edge
problems of ply.
Can that be done without a biscuit joiner, or should I bite the
bullet and get one? The gaps I can fill, as long as I get the faces flush.
Thanks!
Luke
If I was going to paint them, I would buy MDF
or thermofoil doors. Get them finished if possible.
It will be faster,cheaper,easier.
It's not what you asked but it is good advice.
You build the boxes and hang the doors on them.
Here is several examples:
http://www.cabinetmart.com/thermo-doors.html
http://www.advantagecabinetdoors.com/
http://mdfdoors.com/?gclid=CPbp1fWA3ooCFRVkYAodzid3zw
http://www.eclectic-ware.com/Eclectic-ware/Quality_Doors/qd700series/qd700series.html
This way you don't come back in two years and tell us that the
kitchen job took just a "wee bit" longer than you expected and
that the divorce is just getting settled up.
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> Hello, all!
>
> I've been lurking this group for a few weeks now, and many thanks
> for all the tips I've picked up so far. I'm a framing carpenter, and I've
> just dried in a house for myself. (to live in, not to sell) I've decided
> that I can get away with building my own set of cabinets, since SWMBO is
> both practical and thrifty almost beyond belief.
"Max" <it ain'[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> I tiled this countertop 20 years ago. I used silicone grout sealer to seal
> the grout.
> The underlayment is 3/4" MDO.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yw78bd
Looks good!
-- Mark
"James L Kilpatrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't have
> a jointer
You can borrow mine (6" Jet) if you're in driving distance of Bowie MD USA.
I'm working on some software projects & haven't made significant sawdust for
a couple months.
-- Mark
Patriarch wrote:
>
> So the tablesaw suggestions I sent will not work. So much for my
> assumptions!
>
> No jointer means needing to clean up the joints with a handplane. A #5,
> or better, a #6, sharpened, would be nice. That's $175 for one nice
> enough for a tradesman to use, unless you've already scrounged and tuned
> an old one. Then it's maybe half for a pre=WWII Stanley.
>
> Your router screwed down to a piece of 3/4 plywood, with a straight
> fence will be useful, portable and storable. And removeable for when
> you need it for framing work. You coud still do the splines.
>
> Doing your own cabinets makes a lot of sense, and not just financially.
> It's a pride thing, and an extension of skills. I'm going to guess that
> there are a lot more cabinet makers still working their full hours into
> their sixties than there are framers. The more you can do, the longer
> you can do it, and for more people.
>
> I'll tell you one other thing, from personal experience: It's great,
> after 35 years, to be doing something other than the work I did in my
> early twenties. Really, really great. Nothing wrong with the old
> stuff, but learning something new, pretty regularly helps drive boredom
> away. That's important to some of us.
>
> Have fun with your project, and much success to you, both.
>
> Patriarch
The homemade router table is almost ready now, and I think I know
where I can get my hands on a decent plane. At least, I think it's in good
shape, but I'm not knowledgeable on planes (yet).
As for having a diversity of skills, I couldn't agree more! My main
problem is that the skills I've developed "on the side" aren't necessarily
great money makers. I'm a pretty decent potter, for instance, but unless
you live in a tourist mecca, that's a ticket to the poorhouse. Same for my
bladesmithing abilities.
On the other hand, the broad range of skills and knowledge comes in
handy in almost everything I try to do, so I'm far from depressed over
these "unused" skills.
Thanks for your kind words!
Luke
James L Kilpatrick <[email protected]> wrote in
news:P%[email protected]:
<snip>
> Hmmm..
>
> SWMBO has given me one mandate. The doors MUST be flat and
> featureless. It's a cleaning issue. I'm starting to wonder about flush
> framing 1/2" ply with Poplar now, as the consensus is to avoid the
> edge problems of ply.
>
> Can that be done without a biscuit joiner, or should I bite
> the
> bullet and get one? The gaps I can fill, as long as I get the faces
> flush.
>
> Thanks!
> Luke
>
You can do it with a biscuit jointer, and spend a huindred and a half, or
with a router table, and spend $30 on the slot cutting bit, and use
splines. Or your full kerf table saw blade, and use splines there, too.
But I'd use something. I think I'd plan on an 'interest groove' there,
too, but just slight. Much easier than trying to disguise it, but not
enough to cause a cleaning problems, when painted.
Patriarch,
doing a kitchen for my daughter-in-law that is taking a lot of time...
James L Kilpatrick <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> Luke
>>
>> this is the way to go. you don't need a biscuit jointer for this at
>> all. rip up the solid stock for edging to about 1/4" wider than the
>> ply is thick, by about 1/2" thick. spread both mating surfaces with
>> glue, center it on the edge and "clamp" it with strips of masking
>> tape about every 3" or so. when the glue dries, trim the edges flush
>> with a router, block plane, belt sander, scraper or whatever tool you
>> prefer for such tasks. don't bother trying to miter the corners. they
>> will be hidden under the paint. do 2 sides with the panel a bit
>> oversize, trim and do the other 2.
>
>
> OK, I'm getting onboard with the framed doors, but RIGHT NOW,
> I
> should disclose my toolset.
>
> As I said, I'm a framer. I have a good circular saw, a good
> router,
> a good miter saw, and a good drill. I have a framing square, straight
> edges, tape measures, and chalk lines. I carry a sharp chisel on me at
> all times. With the tools I've just listed, I'm quite good. I plan to
> do all my sawing with the handheld circular saw, except that I'll be
> using a straightedge or saw guide, instead of freehanding it, as I
> normally do.
>
> The whole reason for building my own is to save money. I can
> spend a
> little, say $300 for tooling, without screwing the budget. I've
> considered a cheap table saw, but haven't convinced myself yet. (I
> HATE cheap tools) I have already allocated money ( $150), for clamps.
>
> I know it's crazy to try building cabinets with these tools,
> but I'm
> crazy. Just ask anyone who knows me! I'm not looking to put cabinet
> shops out of business, just to get my cabinets to look half decent.
>
> As long as they're small accent lines, I can probably talk
> SWMBO
> into a v-groove at the joint of ply and poplar.
>
> With all that in mind, here's another question. Cheap table saw? Yes
> or no. I can hold 1/16" tolerance freehand for 8' with my trusty
> Milwaukee, so take that into account.
>
> This is fun, by the way. Thanks!
>
> Luke
>
>
So the tablesaw suggestions I sent will not work. So much for my
assumptions!
No jointer means needing to clean up the joints with a handplane. A #5,
or better, a #6, sharpened, would be nice. That's $175 for one nice
enough for a tradesman to use, unless you've already scrounged and tuned
an old one. Then it's maybe half for a pre=WWII Stanley.
Your router screwed down to a piece of 3/4 plywood, with a straight
fence will be useful, portable and storable. And removeable for when
you need it for framing work. You coud still do the splines.
Doing your own cabinets makes a lot of sense, and not just financially.
It's a pride thing, and an extension of skills. I'm going to guess that
there are a lot more cabinet makers still working their full hours into
their sixties than there are framers. The more you can do, the longer
you can do it, and for more people.
I'll tell you one other thing, from personal experience: It's great,
after 35 years, to be doing something other than the work I did in my
early twenties. Really, really great. Nothing wrong with the old
stuff, but learning something new, pretty regularly helps drive boredom
away. That's important to some of us.
Have fun with your project, and much success to you, both.
Patriarch
James L Kilpatrick <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> That last point just might be the best one I've seen so far in
> this thread!
>
> I thought seriously about going the "store bought" route on
> the doors, but
> I'm going to at least give it a try before make that decision. I just
> got back home with the materials and most of the tools needed for a
> vanity, and that's going to be the test piece. I'll be able to try
> some different methods for the drawer faces and doors, and get a feel
> for the overall work.
>
> Although I'm not really in a time squeeze, I can't drag this
> out forever,
> either. I'll know by the end of the week whether this project is a go
> or not, although I'd really be surprised if I hit anything
> insurmountable.
>
> Thanks for the input! Being able to get feeback from a number
> of more
> experienced folks is a really big help. I'll post back later with some
> of my results and conclusions.
>
> Have Fun!
>
> Luke
>
>
OK. That's the spirit! We've got him at the top pf the slope. A
little nudge, and down he goes! ;-)
Here's the thing you may not have considered: When doing drawers or
doors, or anything else in multiples, it takes a bunch of clamps to get
the glueups through to sufficiently cured. I don't want to think of how
much cash I dropped on the pile of clamps hiding in the garage shop.
And I used maybe 24 of them on just one cabinet's worth of drawers
Saturday.
Plan your work so that you can do this a little each evening, and maybe
some early in the morning, before you leave. Or raid a friend's shop
for a week.
Patriarch
Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote in news:SGjHh.40292
[email protected]:
> I recall hearing a news item about a woman who actually
> shot her husband over a unfinished kitchen. He did not
> want to press charges.
>
>
> Markem wrote:
>
>>
>> A tangent
>>
>> http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/index.html
>>
>> Scroll down to Sweet Justice
>>
>> Mark
>
I have a good friend who took somewhat over 8 years to finish the kitchen
upgrade & remodel. His wife is one of the more patient people I know. ;)
Patriarch
Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote in news:uTBHh.42842
[email protected]:
<snip>
> I would consider at least buying a used contractor
> saw with a decent fence.
>
> I would also consider getting a Kreg jig. You can
> put some boxes together in a BIG hurry with glue
> and pocket hole screws.
>
For what you save in the 'number of clamps needed', by using the simple
Kreg jig, you can buy a decent used contractor saw. And probably save
yourself two weeks of nights, building drawers.
And making face frames for the cabinets becomes much easier with the table
saw, too.
You can do this affordably. We're counting on it.
Patriarch
James L Kilpatrick <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I had considered going with pocket holes, but talked myself
> out of it. The
> biggest reason is simply that I don't know enough about where to use
> them, and where not to. I guess if I'm going to either buy lots more
> clamps or a Kreg jig in the next week, I need to spend some time
> studying how they're used in the custom cabinets I can get access to.
>
> The face frames I'd planned to build from standard width
> poplar stock from
> the local Lowe's. I think I failed to mention that I have a good
> compound miter saw. A fresh blade on that and I should be able to cut
> cleanly to exact lengths.
>
> Please don't laugh, but for joining the face frames, I plan to
> use a
> homemade doweling jig and 1/4" dowels. I'd thought about a lap joint,
> but given the amount of hopping from job to job I'll be doing, I
> figured I'd get more consistent results with a jig and dowels. I know
> it's time consuming, but it fits into my comfort zone as a technique.
> Would pocket holes be a candidate for joining face frames?
>
> I keep saying thanks to you guys, but I promise, I really do
> mean it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Luke
>
A couple of years ago, Kreg had a video in woodworking stores that
showed how to use their jig. Sometimes it was a freebie with a jig
purchase, and sometimes $10 or so. Often, it was playing on the video
in the corner, and you could watch it for 20 minutes, and figure out
almost anything you needed from that session. It's dead simple,
particularly for someone who makes his living framing. The video might
be on the Kreg website.
A note on the face frames: The table saw makes ripping the stock to
width much easier. Then you can buy from a wood dealer or lumber yard,
s2s or s3s stock, at a much more reasonable price. Some of the nation's
most expensive lumber is hiding in that row at the BORG.
Your miter saw will get plenty of work, and is an optimum tool for the
cross cuts.
The dowels and jig will work. So will the pocket jig, which might be
faster. Strength isn't really an issue here, because both will work. I
use the pocket hole jig, because I have one (not a fancy Kreg, BTW).
And dowels still need clamping for longer than it takes to drive the
screws. At least until the glue cures up some - an hour maybe.
You may want to poke around a website www.mcfeeleys.com that sells
screws, fasteners and tools. Nobody has better stuff, and they have
very reasonable prices.
About the help: Who do you think we learned this stuff from, anyway?
Somebody showed us, told us, or pointed us in the right direction. No
big deal. Enjoy your project!
Patriarch
That is the carpenter version but it will work. The full blown
kit when setup will be MUCH faster and easier to work with.
I have the older version and the K2000 version. After you
learn how to deal with the jig and the assemble, you can
really make some progress. Consider getting a few of the
assemble clamps. They really help out a LOT.
http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=72
http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=66
Another happy camper using screws and glue.....
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
>
> Well, Pat, I built a vanity as a test piece over the weekend, and decided
> Sat. night that I'd just get one of these jigs to try the process. I can't
> immediately recall the model number, but it's the $45.00 set that has the
> Two-hole jig, the collared drill, and the long square bit all boxed
> together.
>
> That thing is at least 50% slicker than owl shit! I just couldn't believe
> how quickly and easily I got the face frame built, and it made adding some
> gussets in the top of the box an absolute breeze. If I'd gotten no other
> tips at all from all you fine people, (and I've gotten plenty), that would
> have made me happy as a clam.
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 05:43:11 GMT, James L Kilpatrick
<[email protected]> wrote:
> SWMBO has given me one mandate. The doors MUST be flat and
>featureless. It's a cleaning issue. I'm starting to wonder about flush
>framing 1/2" ply with Poplar now, as the consensus is to avoid the edge
>problems of ply.
Melamine with iron-on edge banding. Or have melamine doors and drawer
fronts made by one of the many mail-order shops.
Go to a local Home Depot or Lowes and look at the white "Thermofoil"
doors. You'll see what I mean.
If you're worried about weight, use a third hinge.
I forgot to mention...
There are many folks who sell knock down drawers to
the cabinet crowd also.
Speed,speed,speed is everything when the "little woman"
gets to talking about cooking Christmas dinner in her
new kitchen and you are still doing glue-ups on the panels
to make 50 cabinet doors. (no pressure there)
We won't talk about just where you are gonna put all those
doors to be finished.
Where are you storing all the base cabinets and wall cabinets
after they get put together ?
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> Yep, I came in tonight with an armload of clamps, and SWMBO couldn't
> believe it when I told her that I expected to need at LEAST three times
> that many once I got started in earnest. I had to explain that I couldn't
> just do one drawer at a time if I wanted to get the job done in a
> reasonable time frame. Clamps are definitely going to be the biggest single
> tool cost for these cabinets.
>
> Luke
>
Well, Pat, I built a vanity as a test piece over the weekend, and decided
Sat. night that I'd just get one of these jigs to try the process. I can't
immediately recall the model number, but it's the $45.00 set that has the
Two-hole jig, the collared drill, and the long square bit all boxed
together.
That thing is at least 50% slicker than owl shit! I just couldn't believe
how quickly and easily I got the face frame built, and it made adding some
gussets in the top of the box an absolute breeze. If I'd gotten no other
tips at all from all you fine people, (and I've gotten plenty), that would
have made me happy as a clam.
Although I haven't had a chance to start finishing the door edges yet, I
made two doors from 3/4 birch ply with rounded edges. I'm going to try a
couple of purpose-made wood fillers, and if those don't give good results,
I may try good old Bondo. The edges are smoother in the raw state than I'd
expected, so I'm pretty hopeful at this point that I'll get decent results
without having to add frames around the plywood.
Some thoughts from the work this weekend:
If I had a table saw, I'd buy poplar boards and mill them to size. Since I
don't, I'm spending more for milled stock for the face frames at Lowe's.
I'm OK with that, as it's not all that much stock to begin with.
A new finish blade on a circular saw that I've used every day for ten
years, when driven carefully, is going to be quite acceptable for all my
sawing needs. (except that I'll use my el cheapo jig saw to complete the
cuts so as not to waste plywood)
I'm up to sixteen clamps now, and expect to get more before long.
I need a couple of extra arms for getting everything into position to
clamp. Some of the scenes on Sunday would have made you guys split a side,
laughing. :)
I was nervous about starting this project. As I get further into it,
though, I find I'm starting to really enjoy it. Thanks, everyone who has
chipped in with tips and advice! I'll keep you posted, and I'm sure I'll
have more questions as I get on with the build.
Luke
Pat Barber wrote:
> Using the Kreg jig is a dead simple operation.
>
> For a "basic" box and face frames, it can not be
> beat for speed and accuracy.
>
> The "only" tool you need is a 3/8" drill.
>
> You don't have to have a battery drill but that does
> speed things up a little. The screws can be set by a
> basic screw driver will a long bit.
>
> Go here for the story... http://www.kregtool.com/
> and be sure to look here:
>
> http://www.kregtool.com/education_center/index.php#eurostyleCabinets
> http://www.kregtool.com/products/ka/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=59
>
> These news groups are about the only useful thing on the web.
>
Patriarch wrote:
> Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote in news:uTBHh.42842
> [email protected]:
> <snip>
>> I would consider at least buying a used contractor
>> saw with a decent fence.
>>
>> I would also consider getting a Kreg jig. You can
>> put some boxes together in a BIG hurry with glue
>> and pocket hole screws.
>>
>
> For what you save in the 'number of clamps needed', by using the simple
> Kreg jig, you can buy a decent used contractor saw. And probably save
> yourself two weeks of nights, building drawers.
>
> And making face frames for the cabinets becomes much easier with the table
> saw, too.
>
> You can do this affordably. We're counting on it.
>
> Patriarch
I had considered going with pocket holes, but talked myself out of it. The
biggest reason is simply that I don't know enough about where to use them,
and where not to. I guess if I'm going to either buy lots more clamps or a
Kreg jig in the next week, I need to spend some time studying how they're
used in the custom cabinets I can get access to.
The face frames I'd planned to build from standard width poplar stock from
the local Lowe's. I think I failed to mention that I have a good compound
miter saw. A fresh blade on that and I should be able to cut cleanly to
exact lengths.
Please don't laugh, but for joining the face frames, I plan to use a
homemade doweling jig and 1/4" dowels. I'd thought about a lap joint, but
given the amount of hopping from job to job I'll be doing, I figured I'd
get more consistent results with a jig and dowels. I know it's time
consuming, but it fits into my comfort zone as a technique. Would pocket
holes be a candidate for joining face frames?
I keep saying thanks to you guys, but I promise, I really do mean it.
Thanks!
Luke
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
> Hello, all!
>
> I've been lurking this group for a few weeks now, and many
> thanks for all the tips I've picked up so far. I'm a framing
> carpenter, and I've just dried in a house for myself. (to live in,
> not to sell) I've decided that I can get away with building my own
> set of cabinets, since SWMBO is both practical and thrifty almost
> beyond belief.
>
> The set is to be face frame, and painted with brush and
> roller.
> I think I've got the construction pretty well worked out, but I've
> got one question that needs to be addressed pretty soon, namely,
> what material for the doors and drawer faces?
>
> This set will be pretty plain, with just rounded over 3/4"
> thick overlaid doors and faces. The choices I seem to have locally
> are: 3/4" veneer cored birch ply, and 3/4" MDF cored birch panel.
>
> My problem is that I don't have any real experience with
> finishing either of these. I'd expect that the ply will have some
> voids and grain structure on the rounded edge that will need
> filling and sanding, but will it be so much that the time involved
> will be ridiculous? Likewise, I'd expect that the MDF panel will
> have a fair amount of "fur" on the rounded edge that will need to
> be sanded down. Should the MDF be hit with something like sanding
> sealer and smoothed before painting?
>
> I've never tried to paint the edges of either product, so
> I'd sure like to hear some of your experiences. Thanks!
I'd never use MDF, don't like it. Ply edges would need a LOT of work
to get a paint job that is reasonable. There are two products that
could make it faster/easier, both available at auto supply stores such
as NAPA. First is any Bondo like catalyzed filler to be used for
voids. Second is glazing compound. The latter comes in a tube and is
just talc and lacquer (bondo is talc and polyester resin) and is for
more minor roughness.
Using those two and a decent primer would give you painted edges that
look like they grew there. Auto body primers are also useful as they
have high quantity of solids and sand very easily.
Given the amount of work to get good painted rounded over edges on
plywood, I wouldn't do it. I'd leave the ply edges square and cover
them with a solid wood molding shaped as desired.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Old guy wrote:
> You will burn a lot of time getting edge grain plywood to look even half
> decent. I wouldn't trust the MDF cored plywood to handle dings and
> scrapes--they do happen in a kitchen.
>
> I'd go for the solid wood poplar for my choice.
>
> Or--is there a cabinet shop that owes you a favor? Ask them to build the
> doors and drawer faces, to your dimensions, and you install and finish
> them. They can probably build them for what you will have to pay for
> material.
>
> Good luck--even a small kitchen is a big project, especially in your spare
> time.
>
> Old Guy
> With sore hands from removing all of 90SF of tile from his kitchen floor.
Five years ago, I'd have had a great guy to go to. A real old-time
craftsman made cabinets for us for years, and he's just the best fellow you
could ever want to meet. He just retired last year, though. Long past time
for it, too. He crewed a tank destroyer in WWII!
It's a big project for sure. I was happy to find, though, as I
planned it out, that the cabinets naturally divided into relatively small
units. I originally had this vision of me trying to wrestle 12' stretches
around as I tried to get them assembled, painted, etc.
Speaking of tiles, I'm planning to tile the counters. 1/2" ply
underlayment with backer board on top of the cabinets, followed by ceramic
tile. any special advice on sealing, anyone?
Thanks for the input!
Luke
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:45:39 GMT, James L Kilpatrick
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello, all!
>
> I've been lurking this group for a few weeks now, and many thanks
>for all the tips I've picked up so far. I'm a framing carpenter, and I've
>just dried in a house for myself. (to live in, not to sell) I've decided
>that I can get away with building my own set of cabinets, since SWMBO is
>both practical and thrifty almost beyond belief.
>
> The set is to be face frame, and painted with brush and roller.
>I think I've got the construction pretty well worked out, but I've got one
>question that needs to be addressed pretty soon, namely, what material for
>the doors and drawer faces?
You don't want to edge profile plywood, even painted you'll still see
the laminations. Poplar is pretty much the standard cheap hardwood
that takes paint well.
-Leuf
Being lower on the income scale can be a real
incentive. Been there, done that, built two
houses by myself.
There has probably been a billion set of cabinets
built from birch plywood with very basic tools.
I would consider at least buying a used contractor
saw with a decent fence.
I would also consider getting a Kreg jig. You can
put some boxes together in a BIG hurry with glue
and pocket hole screws.
James L Kilpatrick wrote:
If you took the real buying power of my income and
translated it into 1984 dollars, (the year I graduated high school),
I'd be below the poverty line.
It's only because of SWMBO that I can even come close to
affording my own home. OUR own home, I should say.
I thank God for her!
Pat Barber wrote:
> If I was going to paint them, I would buy MDF
> or thermofoil doors. Get them finished if possible.
>
> It will be faster,cheaper,easier.
>
> It's not what you asked but it is good advice.
>
> You build the boxes and hang the doors on them.
>
> Here is several examples:
>
> http://www.cabinetmart.com/thermo-doors.html
> http://www.advantagecabinetdoors.com/
> http://mdfdoors.com/?gclid=CPbp1fWA3ooCFRVkYAodzid3zw
>
http://www.eclectic-ware.com/Eclectic-ware/Quality_Doors/qd700series/qd700series.html
>
> This way you don't come back in two years and tell us that the
> kitchen job took just a "wee bit" longer than you expected and
> that the divorce is just getting settled up.
>
That last point just might be the best one I've seen so far in this thread!
I thought seriously about going the "store bought" route on the doors, but
I'm going to at least give it a try before make that decision. I just got
back home with the materials and most of the tools needed for a vanity, and
that's going to be the test piece. I'll be able to try some different
methods for the drawer faces and doors, and get a feel for the overall
work.
Although I'm not really in a time squeeze, I can't drag this out forever,
either. I'll know by the end of the week whether this project is a go or
not, although I'd really be surprised if I hit anything insurmountable.
Thanks for the input! Being able to get feeback from a number of more
experienced folks is a really big help. I'll post back later with some of
my results and conclusions.
Have Fun!
Luke
Pat Barber wrote:
> I forgot to mention...
>
> There are many folks who sell knock down drawers to
> the cabinet crowd also.
>
> Speed,speed,speed is everything when the "little woman"
> gets to talking about cooking Christmas dinner in her
> new kitchen and you are still doing glue-ups on the panels
> to make 50 cabinet doors. (no pressure there)
>
> We won't talk about just where you are gonna put all those
> doors to be finished.
>
> Where are you storing all the base cabinets and wall cabinets
> after they get put together ?
>
I'd love to have someone else do the doors, the drawers, and the bases for
that matter! :) I really don't look forward to the next couple of weeks,
since I'm essentially working three jobs. The problem I have is that I
can't put a nice markup on these cabinets and sell them. I couldn't even
afford to buy them from someone who did.
If you took the real buying power of my income and translated it into 1984
dollars, (the year I graduated high school), I'd be below the poverty line.
It's only because of SWMBO that I can even come close to affording my own
home. OUR own home, I should say. I thank God for her!
I'm not doing this as a hobby, or as a business. I'm just trying to keep my
head above water. It helps a lot to have good folks like everyone here to
bounce ideas off of, and occasionally to vent some steam. In the limited
spare time I have right now, this group is one of the highlights!
Thanks!
Luke