Sharing photos from lighting experiment

On 8/3/2011 12:01 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>
>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>> magnets.
>>>
>>> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
>>> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
>>> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.
>>
>>
>> SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and no
>> glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.
>
> As someone who is choosing, I'm curious whether you would you chose
> Satin again?
>
> Bill
>

Absolutely, I am very happy with the sheen and color, and that it is
still clean in a 7 month old shop that has been creating lots of saw
dust. Actually the color by a normal persons standards is white, the
color chip says Swedish Coffee?

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:01:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/4/2011 2:33 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>>
>> Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?
>>
>> I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
>> I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price of
>> paint really go up, huh?
>>
>> White should make a good canvas for my mural...
>>
>> Bill
>
>Now that is what I left the same color, a light flat beige color. I did
>not want to go to that much trouble and most the light hitting the
>ceiling is blocked by the lamp base. All other light hitting the
>ceiling has already been reflected from some where else. I still have
>what my wife describes as the tit up landing zone.

I won't ask. ;) But I think your ceiling would give you more light
if you put a coat of white on it, Leon. Noticeable light.


Regarding your first sentence:

Q: What did the Jewish American Princess say while she was having sex?

A: Beige. I think I'll paint the ceiling beige.


--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:01:18 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm sure people figured out I meant to type "I haven't brought any paint
>strips home".

Wrong. We know you too well to assume anything of the sort.
<snort>

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

Bill wrote:

>
> BTW, did you all get the word about Menards having 11% off everything
> this week until August 7th (via rebate). I'm going to pick up most of
> my wire today and some of the other things I need for this project. I
> only bought 3 fixtures so far, but they came from Home Depot who
> hasn't offered a sale on them yet--and I don't know exactly how many I'll
> need. ; )

If you happen to prefer the fixtures from HD for any reason, then simply go
into HD and ask for a price match.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:47:18 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I'd definitely use eggshell paint.
>
>Paint newbe: Why is that?
>What do you think of "satin"? Supposed to be easier to keep clean?

It's within 3% of the same gloss, so either works. Both are very
wipable and dust-free.


>My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
>right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
>can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
>not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
>bounces off of the walls.

Pure white walls, got it? ;)


>>> BTW, having all of the lights on Would be too much for me if I was just
>>> passing the time. If I was running any major power tool, it might be
>>> good. I appreciate that this might be averaged out some.
>>
>> I use comfortable overhead lighting plus high-intensity spot lighting
>> for critical areas. The overhead lighting is always on while I'm in
>> the shop, and the spots are on while I'm at the tools, such as the
>> mortiser/grinder/drillpress bench or the bandsaw. But that's only when
>> I've created a deer trail to actually get to the tool mentioned.
>> <sigh> One Christmas present to myself is clearing out all the crap
>> in the shop so I can get back to work. I'm _finally_ back in
>> de-clutter mode.
>
>One of the most time consuming parts of my shop project is moving stuff
>around (too). Frustrating when there aren't alot of good spots to move
>the stuff around to. Presently all of our "stuff" in the garage is in

Whoa! That's now your shop. It's time to put your foot down and get
all that crap which isn't woodwork-related outta there!


>the middle--which makes it easy to work on walls, but harder to work on
>lights... Sometime's I block off the deer trails with chairs and such
>(hint, hint), but my wife walks through anyway!

Then it was a dear trail instead. <groan>

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

"Bill" wrote ...
> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to see
> than the results.
>
Just a suggestion Bill. Next time mount the lights on the ceiling. It will
look much nicer. '-)

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*snip*
>
> BTW, did you all get the word about Menards having 11% off everything
> this week until August 7th (via rebate). I'm going to pick up most of
> my wire today and some of the other things I need for this project. I
> only bought 3 fixtures so far, but they came from Home Depot who
> hasn't offered a sale on them yet--and I don't know exactly how many
> I'll need. ; )
>
> Bill

Thanks for the heads up. Time to buy my dust collection piping.

Puckdropper

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>
> Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?
>
> I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
> I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price
> of paint really go up, huh?
>
> White should make a good canvas for my mural...
>
> Bill
>

Oh don't do that. You'll feel bad about covering it up with tools and
wood. (You'll still do it anyway, having a working shop is more
important than art.)

Mind if I e-mail you a picture? It's just a snapshot and not worth
putting up on Usenet or the website.

Puckdropper

"Leon" wrote:

> I have several Purdy but have been switching over to Wooster
> brushes, Lowe's caries them along with most better hardware and
> paint stores.
---------------------------------
The folks who work at "The Brush" in my old home town certainly
appreciate your support.

Lew

"Leon" wrote:

> Which brand brush Lew, and they certainly deserve my support, both
> brands are the top IMHO.
---------------------------------------
The Wooster Brush Company, Wooster, Ohio.

Lew

On 8/3/2011 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>>>>> see than the results.
>>>>>
>>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>>
>>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I
>>>>> said I
>>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>>
>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>
>>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
>>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>>
>>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>>>> shades in there. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Larry,
>>>
>>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
>>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>>> great stock in that).
>>>
>>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
>>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
>>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>>
>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>
>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>> magnets.
>
> THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
> realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>
> flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>
> I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
> that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
> deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>
> Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
> your opinions?
>
> Bill

Actually Bill I did use Satin, I typically think in terms of flat and
gloss. I for got about all the in betweens.

Satin is what I have, it has just a touch of shine to it and I am happy
with it.

One other thing to keep in mind. You wan to use a PREMIUM paint,
especially if you are using a latex paint. Not all latex paints are
created equally and that goes for premium brands also. As Swingman
pointed out to me a few days ago the cheaper quality latex paints remain
sticky. The better latex paints dry harder. So if you lean any boards
against the wall you don't want them to stick. DAMHIKT.

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 04:32:22 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>>> see than the results.
>>>
>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>
>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>
>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>> shades in there. ;)
>
>
>Hi Larry,
>
>I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
>repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>great stock in that).
>
>The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
>lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
>lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.

I thought you had the two over the bench and the two originals on the
same switch. That could work.


>At this point I have the 11 (T8) light fixtures designed in the pattern
>over the 20' x 24' space (lights running the long way:
>
>++ __ __
>
>__ __ __
>
>++ __ __
>
>__ __
>
>the hole occuring where the attic is, and the fixtures marked ++ being
>my primary ones over my bench, and they are on 1 switch and the other 9
>are on another switch.

From medium to blinding in the flip of a switch, eh? Right now, gray
sheetrock and flat mud are sucking in the light, not reflecting it.


>The 3 fixtures above the "gap" above will be
>right above the table saw. The EMT runs very nicely in the
>configuration above without a single bend and there is some symmetry.
>Larry, What would you change? Seriously. : )

I'd definitely use eggshell paint. Without it, you'll need those extra
fixtures. Well, I don't use the perimeter of my shop much. Some is
relegated to wood storage, the other to shelving, so I guess I can't
complain too much about too much light in your shop unless I'm feelin'
frisky.


>BTW, having all of the lights on Would be too much for me if I was just
>passing the time. If I was running any major power tool, it might be
>good. I appreciate that this might be averaged out some.

I use comfortable overhead lighting plus high-intensity spot lighting
for critical areas. The overhead lighting is always on while I'm in
the shop, and the spots are on while I'm at the tools, such as the
mortiser/grinder/drillpress bench or the bandsaw. But that's only when
I've created a deer trail to actually get to the tool mentioned.
<sigh> One Christmas present to myself is clearing out all the crap
in the shop so I can get back to work. I'm _finally_ back in
de-clutter mode.


>Gosh, you'd think we hadn't done the experiment! : ) I do see your
>point though so I'm still listening. You might recall that I do already
>have two other lights from a separate circuit--and along with the ones
>marked ** above, those 4 DO provide a Nice medium level lighting in the

MEDIUM? Hmm, what does the doctor say about your cataracts? A buddy
of mine said he just got one of his done last week and is scheduled to
get the other eye done this week. He's 58, like me, and said it's nice
to see the world as white, instead of a milky yellow that he had been
seeing.


>I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm sounding like a broken record.
>I'm still willing to accept constructive criticism. At least now I know
>what to expect from 2 or 3 of my bulbs, etc.

Well, not really. Since light is additive, when you add those other
fixtures, bouncing light fills in everywhere. I'm thinking that when
you turn it all on, you're going to be surprised at how bright the
collective light is.


>BTW, did you all get the word about Menards having 11% off everything

We're stuck with Blowes and Homey's Despot on the Left Coast.


>this week until August 7th (via rebate). I'm going to pick up most of my
>wire today and some of the other things I need for this project. I only
>bought 3 fixtures so far, but they came from Home Depot who hasn't
>offered a sale on them yet--and I don't know exactly how many I'll need. ; )

If you're going to have 13 fixtures in there burning at the same time,
you'd best not forget extra pairs of shades and SPF-50 lotion for all
the guest suntanners you're likely to attract. ;) </frisky>

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>painted most of the garage gloss white.
>
>BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.

Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>>> see than the results.
>>>
>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>
>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>
>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>> shades in there. ;)
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
> great stock in that).
>
> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.

FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
painted most of the garage gloss white.

BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.

On 8/5/2011 12:50 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> Which brand brush Lew, and they certainly deserve my support, both
>> brands are the top IMHO.
> ---------------------------------------
> The Wooster Brush Company, Wooster, Ohio.
>
> Lew
>
>

Ahhh glad that is the one I look for first.

Oddly I have not seen that cancer warning label on them yet. ;~)

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:49:15 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:

>> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
>> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
>> I just bought some primer today.
>>
>> Bill
>
>I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
>Sherwin Williams, Prat & Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
>their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
>their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
>never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
>quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
>effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
>years down the road.

Truth! But it's a truth I've yet to convince customers on. (I'm just
glad I don't do much painting.)


>Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
>for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
>cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
>the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt & Lambert Alkaid based oil
>enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
>gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.

One-coat alkyd? Amazing. What color? Over a white base, or did you
tint the primer? I've gotta start doing that.

Our local home improvement store is now selling P&L. I'll have to give
it a try next time. One client is sold on Miller AcryLite exterior
house paint, and I now love it after using some on his rental unit.

Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/4/2011 1:06 AM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 8/3/2011 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>>>>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more
>>>>>>>>> interesting to
>>>>>>>>> see than the results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>>>>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I
>>>>>>>>> said I
>>>>>>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting,
>>>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your
>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're
>>>>>>>> wearing
>>>>>>>> shades in there. ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>>>>>>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>>>>>>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>>>>>>> great stock in that).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd
>>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I
>>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>>>> magnets.
>>>>>
>>>>> THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
>>>>> realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>>>>>
>>>>> flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
>>>>> that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
>>>>> deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
>>>>> your opinions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> Actually Bill I did use Satin, I typically think in terms of flat and
>>>> gloss. I for got about all the in betweens.
>>>>
>>>> Satin is what I have, it has just a touch of shine to it and I am happy
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> One other thing to keep in mind. You wan to use a PREMIUM paint,
>>>> especially if you are using a latex paint. Not all latex paints are
>>>> created equally and that goes for premium brands also. As Swingman
>>>> pointed out to me a few days ago the cheaper quality latex paints
>>>> remain
>>>> sticky. The better latex paints dry harder. So if you lean any boards
>>>> against the wall you don't want them to stick. DAMHIKT.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
>>> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
>>> I just bought some primer today.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> BTW, You are quite correct: If I lean boards against the wall, I don't
>>> want them to stick!
>>
>> I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
>> Sherwin Williams, Prat & Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
>> their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
>> their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
>> never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
>> quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
>> effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
>> years down the road.
>>
>> Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
>> for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
>> cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
>> the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt & Lambert Alkaid based oil
>> enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
>> gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.
>>
>
> Thank you for the lesson. I don't think I've ever applied "good" paint.
>
> I did a lot of painting during 2 summers while in school, and I recall
> paying $6 to 8 a gallon at Sears, depending on whether it was on sale or
> not. I always used two coats, and it required 2 coats. I charged about
> $5/hr, and only for the time I was on-site, and had plenty of work.
> Minimum wage was about $3.35 so it seemed fair enough at the time to a
> "poor college student". I enjoyed trying to "master the skill", working
> in a business-like manner, and got to listen to the radio all day. I
> didn't advertise myself as a pro, but I think I gave people more than
> their moneys-worth. Word of mouth was on my side. Not bad memories.
>
> Maybe there are unemployed people in this country who could find
> painting work if they applied themselves?
>
> Bill
>
>
Yeah one of my buddies that used me to do the wood work repairs in the
home he was always fixing up for a realtor got me into painting. We
probably painted 40+ houses since 1998. The radio was necessary tool.
;~)

On 8/4/2011 12:29 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:39:18 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/3/2011 12:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>>>> magnets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
>>>>> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
>>>>> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and no
>>>> glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.
>>>
>>> As someone who is choosing, I'm curious whether you would you chose
>>> Satin again?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely, I am very happy with the sheen and color, and that it is
>> still clean in a 7 month old shop that has been creating lots of saw
>> dust. Actually the color by a normal persons standards is white, the
>> color chip says Swedish Coffee?
>
> Wait just a darned minute here. You're saying that you, a Festool
> user, have a shop which is full of sawdust? WTF,O?
>
> Does Not Compute.

Your scanner must have a Yuppie interface, painted wall still clean.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
> > Larry Jaques wrote:
> >> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
> >>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
> >>> see than the results.
> >>>
> >>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
> >>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
> >>>
> >>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
> >>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
> >>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
> >>> week to be completely fun!
> >>>
> >>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
> >>
> >> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
> >> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
> >> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
> >>
> >> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
> >> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
> >> shades in there. ;)
> >
> >
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
> > repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
> > Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
> > superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
> > great stock in that).
> >
> > The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
> > lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
> > lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
> > I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>
> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>
> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.

Big downside on gloss is that it will show _every_ imperfection in the
finish work. If your finish _is_ perfect then it can be a way of
bragging. From a lighting viewpoint flat is better--the actual
reflectance is about the same but it gives a more even light. Gloss vs
flat doesn't always work the way you think.

And ease of cleaning is really more a function of the paint chemistry
than gloss or flat.

On 8/4/2011 7:19 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:06:37 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah one of my buddies that used me to do the wood work repairs in the
>> home he was always fixing up for a realtor got me into painting. We
>> probably painted 40+ houses since 1998. The radio was necessary tool.
>> ;~)
>
> Leon, Leon, you've got to start trimming some of your posts.>150
> lines of rhetoric in this message you just answered.


I am only adding a little, they should trim their posts. :~)

Ill try harder.

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

I learned there are 4 kinds: flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite accurate, with the 4 kinds.

Eggshell is a color of paint; just an off white. It can be purchased in
flat semigloss and gloss.

In wall and trim types of paint, flat is usually used for walls, with
semigloss often chosen for the same room to be used on the trim. Flat does
not reflect a point light source in a way that the point light can still be
seen as a point. (like a light bulb)

Semigloss will reflect a point light source some, but will diffuse it some.

Gloss has a shine that will allow a person to see the point light reflected,
almost like a mirror or piece of glass.

Satin is a term usually used with clear finishes, and compares to flat.
Semigloss is next, then gloss; all when talking about wood finishes.

I hope this is all what others remember, but I am not looking at product on
the shelf as I write this, so I might be off some. Eggshell is definitely
just an off shade of white, and is not a descriptor of the shine of the
finish, at any rate.

-- Jim in NC

On 8/4/2011 9:13 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> I have several Purdy but have been switching over to Wooster
>> brushes, Lowe's caries them along with most better hardware and
>> paint stores.
> ---------------------------------
> The folks who work at "The Brush" in my old home town certainly
> appreciate your support.
>
> Lew
>


Which brand brush Lew, and they certainly deserve my support, both
brands are the top IMHO.

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:10:19 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Leon wrote:

>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.
>
>THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
>realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>
>flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>
>I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
>that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
>deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>
>Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
>your opinions?

Yes. Now go do it. No more analysis. <giggle>

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 03:33:22 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>
>Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?

Yes. And I used porch and floor paint (white) for my concrete floor,
too. It's bright and beautiful when it's clean.


>I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
>I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price of
>paint really go up, huh?

No, they usually gouge just as much for pure white as any color, even
though many of the pigments -aren't- cheap.


>White should make a good canvas for my mural...

Egad! I suppose we'll hear about every stroke made on that for several
years... (Decades?) <chortle>

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/4/2011 12:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:49:15 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
>>> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
>>> I just bought some primer today.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
>> Sherwin Williams, Prat& Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
>> their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
>> their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
>> never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
>> quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
>> effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
>> years down the road.
>
> Truth! But it's a truth I've yet to convince customers on. (I'm just
> glad I don't do much painting.)

To tell you the trugh the better the paint the less of a chore it is in
all aspects of the paint job. Better coverage so fewer paint strokes,
better coverage so single coat applications, clean up is actually better
and faster especially with oil based paints however that may have a lot
to do with knowing the tricks of putting a bit of mineral spirits on the
brush before dipping it in the paint and using the same to clean the
brush. We only used thinner to thin the paint. And with the better
paints, less mess from dripping or paint runs.




>
>
>> Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
>> for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
>> cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
>> the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt& Lambert Alkaid based oil
>> enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
>> gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.
>
> One-coat alkyd? Amazing. What color? Over a white base, or did you
> tint the primer? I've gotta start doing that.

Actually it was white over a light blue. No primer, at the time it was
stated that no primer was needed and to expect single coat coverage.
However we did wipe every thing down with a "liquid sand paper" prior to
painting.

Having said that, I used Sears Best Easy Living latex flat paint for the
walls in our last house 7-8 years ago years ago. My son's room had
black shoe marks on the wall under his desk where he did home work.
Lots of "dark" black marks. The paint covered those marks immediately
upon rolling the paint on and never to appear again. AFAIK Sherwin
Williams still makes Sears paint. I did use Sherwin Williams Alkyd oil
based enamel for all the doors and trim. One gallon did the whole house
and again I bought their best paint.


>
> Our local home improvement store is now selling P&L. I'll have to give
> it a try next time. One client is sold on Miller AcryLite exterior
> house paint, and I now love it after using some on his rental unit.

I did some repainting of the exterior on the last house, always used
Sears Best Life Time Guarantee Polyurethane exterior paint. That works
real well too. But I noticed that at the time that they were stocking
P&L paint. Questioning the paint guy at Sears he indicated that P&L had
been bought out by Sherwin Williams. Not sure I would swear to that
being factual or not myself but no reason to not believe it. It used to
be that you could only find P&L at the stand alone "paint stores". I
have only used P&L paint one time as I need to be sure that I got good
coverage. I would suggest approaching with a bit of caution now that
Sears and HD stock it, especially if it is being sold at a competitive
price. It may not be the same as what it used to be quality wise and or
there may now be different grades. Do a little research. When I bought
I don't recall there being any choices as to what quality to choose from.

>
> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>
> --
> In the depth of winter, I finally learned
> that within me there lay an invincible summer.
> -- Albert Camus

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:31:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/4/2011 12:29 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:39:18 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/3/2011 12:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>> Absolutely, I am very happy with the sheen and color, and that it is
>>> still clean in a 7 month old shop that has been creating lots of saw
>>> dust. Actually the color by a normal persons standards is white, the
>>> color chip says Swedish Coffee?
>>
>> Wait just a darned minute here. You're saying that you, a Festool
>> user, have a shop which is full of sawdust? WTF,O?
>>
>> Does Not Compute.
>
>Your scanner must have a Yuppie interface, painted wall still clean.

Oops! Non-yuppie brainfart, but you led me on with the "creating lots
of saw dust" statement, too. I accept only 1/2 the guilt.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/3/2011 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more
>>>>>>> interesting to
>>>>>>> see than the results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I
>>>>>>> said I
>>>>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>>>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting,
>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>>>>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>>>>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>>>>>> shades in there. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
>>>>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>>>>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>>>>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>>>>> great stock in that).
>>>>>
>>>>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not
>>>>> make
>>>>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd
>>>>> prefer
>>>>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>>>>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>
>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>> magnets.
>>>
>>> THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
>>> realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>>>
>>> flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>>>
>>> I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
>>> that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
>>> deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>>>
>>> Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
>>> your opinions?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> Actually Bill I did use Satin, I typically think in terms of flat and
>> gloss. I for got about all the in betweens.
>>
>> Satin is what I have, it has just a touch of shine to it and I am happy
>> with it.
>>
>> One other thing to keep in mind. You wan to use a PREMIUM paint,
>> especially if you are using a latex paint. Not all latex paints are
>> created equally and that goes for premium brands also. As Swingman
>> pointed out to me a few days ago the cheaper quality latex paints remain
>> sticky. The better latex paints dry harder. So if you lean any boards
>> against the wall you don't want them to stick. DAMHIKT.
>>
>
> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
> I just bought some primer today.
>
> Bill
>
> BTW, You are quite correct: If I lean boards against the wall, I don't
> want them to stick!

I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
Sherwin Williams, Prat & Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
years down the road.

Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt & Lambert Alkaid based oil
enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.

On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>
>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.
>
> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.


SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and
no glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:53:07 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>
>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.
>>
>> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
>> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
>> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.
>
>
>SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and
>no glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.

Bueno, bwana. Most eggshells and satins have nearly identical sheen,
but a few companies make them different.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote ...
>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>> see than the results.
>>
> Just a suggestion Bill. Next time mount the lights on the ceiling. It
> will look much nicer. '-)

It will be easier too. It became obvious they are designed to be hung
in basically one way--and not in a temporary-adhoc way. It took me
several hours to identify a decent way to hang them. One piece of 3/8"
nylon rope, with a knot at each end, held them up, so I used two because
all of the edges were sharp. 3 staples on top, for each piece of rope,
kept them from slipping. I'm glad "the experiment" is over!

I'm looking forward to doing the proper installation. I picked up a
conduit bender for $5 at an auction. It's almost time to start
practicing those 15 degree bends at the ends (yes, I know they sell
"adapters" which eliminate the need).

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>> see than the results.
>>
>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>
>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>> week to be completely fun!
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>
> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
> shades in there. ;)


Hi Larry,

I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
great stock in that).

The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.

At this point I have the 11 (T8) light fixtures designed in the pattern
over the 20' x 24' space (lights running the long way:

++ __ __

__ __ __

++ __ __

__ __

the hole occuring where the attic is, and the fixtures marked ++ being
my primary ones over my bench, and they are on 1 switch and the other 9
are on another switch. The 3 fixtures above the "gap" above will be
right above the table saw. The EMT runs very nicely in the
configuration above without a single bend and there is some symmetry.
Larry, What would you change? Seriously. : )

BTW, having all of the lights on Would be too much for me if I was just
passing the time. If I was running any major power tool, it might be
good. I appreciate that this might be averaged out some.

Gosh, you'd think we hadn't done the experiment! : ) I do see your
point though so I'm still listening. You might recall that I do already
have two other lights from a separate circuit--and along with the ones
marked ** above, those 4 DO provide a Nice medium level lighting in the
most used area. So which fixtures are expendable? I marked in the
other existing lights (on the separate circuit) in the diagram below.


++ __ __

__ __ | __

++ __ | __

__ __

I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm sounding like a broken record.
I'm still willing to accept constructive criticism. At least now I know
what to expect from 2 or 3 of my bulbs, etc.

BTW, did you all get the word about Menards having 11% off everything
this week until August 7th (via rebate). I'm going to pick up most of my
wire today and some of the other things I need for this project. I only
bought 3 fixtures so far, but they came from Home Depot who hasn't
offered a sale on them yet--and I don't know exactly how many I'll need. ; )

Bill

Leon wrote:
> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>>>> see than the results.
>>>>
>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>
>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>
>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>
>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>
>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>>> shades in there. ;)
>>
>>
>> Hi Larry,
>>
>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>> great stock in that).
>>
>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>
> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>
> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt magnets.

THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:

flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.

I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
deficiencies, if you happen to have any.

Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
your opinions?

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> I'd definitely use eggshell paint.

Paint newbe: Why is that?
What do you think of "satin"? Supposed to be easier to keep clean?

Without it, you'll need those extra
> fixtures. Well, I don't use the perimeter of my shop much. Some is
> relegated to wood storage, the other to shelving, so I guess I can't
> complain too much about too much light in your shop unless I'm feelin'
> frisky.

My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
bounces off of the walls.


>
>> BTW, having all of the lights on Would be too much for me if I was just
>> passing the time. If I was running any major power tool, it might be
>> good. I appreciate that this might be averaged out some.
>
> I use comfortable overhead lighting plus high-intensity spot lighting
> for critical areas. The overhead lighting is always on while I'm in
> the shop, and the spots are on while I'm at the tools, such as the
> mortiser/grinder/drillpress bench or the bandsaw. But that's only when
> I've created a deer trail to actually get to the tool mentioned.
> <sigh> One Christmas present to myself is clearing out all the crap
> in the shop so I can get back to work. I'm _finally_ back in
> de-clutter mode.

One of the most time consuming parts of my shop project is moving stuff
around (too). Frustrating when there aren't alot of good spots to move
the stuff around to. Presently all of our "stuff" in the garage is in
the middle--which makes it easy to work on walls, but harder to work on
lights... Sometime's I block off the deer trails with chairs and such
(hint, hint), but my wife walks through anyway!

Leon wrote:
> On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>
>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>> magnets.
>>
>> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
>> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
>> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.
>
>
> SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and no
> glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.

As someone who is choosing, I'm curious whether you would you chose
Satin again?

Bill

Leon wrote:
> On 8/3/2011 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more
>>>>>> interesting to
>>>>>> see than the results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I
>>>>>> said I
>>>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>>>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
>>>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
>>>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
>>>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>>>>> shades in there. ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>
>>>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can always
>>>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>>>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>>>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>>>> great stock in that).
>>>>
>>>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not make
>>>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd prefer
>>>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>>>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>>>
>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>
>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>> magnets.
>>
>> THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
>> realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>>
>> flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>>
>> I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
>> that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
>> deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>>
>> Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
>> your opinions?
>>
>> Bill
>
> Actually Bill I did use Satin, I typically think in terms of flat and
> gloss. I for got about all the in betweens.
>
> Satin is what I have, it has just a touch of shine to it and I am happy
> with it.
>
> One other thing to keep in mind. You wan to use a PREMIUM paint,
> especially if you are using a latex paint. Not all latex paints are
> created equally and that goes for premium brands also. As Swingman
> pointed out to me a few days ago the cheaper quality latex paints remain
> sticky. The better latex paints dry harder. So if you lean any boards
> against the wall you don't want them to stick. DAMHIKT.
>

The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
I just bought some primer today.

Bill

BTW, You are quite correct: If I lean boards against the wall, I don't
want them to stick!

Leon wrote:
> On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/3/2011 11:10 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/3/2011 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>>>>>>>> discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more
>>>>>>>> interesting to
>>>>>>>> see than the results.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>>>>>>>> Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I
>>>>>>>> said I
>>>>>>>> planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>>>>>>>> week to be completely fun!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting,
>>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>>> Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your
>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>> take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
>>>>>>> shades in there. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I have enough lumens to go with the flat paint. One can
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> repent. One can always remove a bulb too, or take down a fixture.
>>>>>> Admittedly, at this point the four fixtures near the garage door are
>>>>>> superfluous, but they make the lighting "uniform" (some y'all place
>>>>>> great stock in that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The experiment revealed that 2 lights placed at 90" centers do not
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> lighting suitable for "seeing the line" with a power tool. You'd
>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>> lights at 43" centers, instead of 90", over your table saw. I suspect
>>>>>> I'll be using exactly 2 fixtures more than half of the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>>> magnets.
>>>>
>>>> THAT was what I learned on my trip to Mennards this morning. I didn't
>>>> realize how clueless I was about paint. I learned there are 4 kinds:
>>>>
>>>> flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>>>>
>>>> I learned that these are progressively easier to wipe dirt off of, and
>>>> that, in the same order, they progressively reveal your drywall
>>>> deficiencies, if you happen to have any.
>>>>
>>>> Based on our conversation, I thought satin was a good choice. What are
>>>> your opinions?
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Actually Bill I did use Satin, I typically think in terms of flat and
>>> gloss. I for got about all the in betweens.
>>>
>>> Satin is what I have, it has just a touch of shine to it and I am happy
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> One other thing to keep in mind. You wan to use a PREMIUM paint,
>>> especially if you are using a latex paint. Not all latex paints are
>>> created equally and that goes for premium brands also. As Swingman
>>> pointed out to me a few days ago the cheaper quality latex paints remain
>>> sticky. The better latex paints dry harder. So if you lean any boards
>>> against the wall you don't want them to stick. DAMHIKT.
>>>
>>
>> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
>> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
>> I just bought some primer today.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> BTW, You are quite correct: If I lean boards against the wall, I don't
>> want them to stick!
>
> I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
> Sherwin Williams, Prat & Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
> their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
> their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
> never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
> quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
> effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
> years down the road.
>
> Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
> for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
> cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
> the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt & Lambert Alkaid based oil
> enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
> gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.
>

Thank you for the lesson. I don't think I've ever applied "good" paint.

I did a lot of painting during 2 summers while in school, and I recall
paying $6 to 8 a gallon at Sears, depending on whether it was on sale or
not. I always used two coats, and it required 2 coats. I charged about
$5/hr, and only for the time I was on-site, and had plenty of work.
Minimum wage was about $3.35 so it seemed fair enough at the time to a
"poor college student". I enjoyed trying to "master the skill", working
in a business-like manner, and got to listen to the radio all day. I
didn't advertise myself as a pro, but I think I gave people more than
their moneys-worth. Word of mouth was on my side. Not bad memories.

Maybe there are unemployed people in this country who could find
painting work if they applied themselves?

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?

Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?

I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price of
paint really go up, huh?

White should make a good canvas for my mural...

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
>> right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
>> can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
>> not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
>> bounces off of the walls.
>
> Pure white walls, got it? ;)


LOL! :)

There are so many distractions at Menards.. By the time I get to where
they keep the paint in the far corner, I hope I still remember. Maybe I
should write it on my palm? I don't want people to think I'm racist
though.. There, "pure white poles"--OOPS!

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>>
>> Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?
>>
>> I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
>> I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price
>> of paint really go up, huh?
>>
>> White should make a good canvas for my mural...
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
> Oh don't do that. You'll feel bad about covering it up with tools and
> wood. (You'll still do it anyway, having a working shop is more
> important than art.)
>
> Mind if I e-mail you a picture? It's just a snapshot and not worth
> putting up on Usenet or the website.
>
> Puckdropper

I'm sure people figured out I meant to type "I haven't brought any paint
strips home". Puck: send what ya got.

Bill

On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:07:06 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I have the results from the lighting configuration test some of us
>discussed some 6 months ago. Maybe my procedure is more interesting to
>see than the results.
>
>I got a camera this week too (finally). My photo's have nothing on
>Swingman's...but maybe that helps make them interesting? : )
>
>At least I'm providing proof that I followed through with what I said I
>planned to do. You can view some of the details on my web site if you
>want. All in all, it was sort of fun--it was just too darn hot this
>week to be completely fun!
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

You'll want to paint that entire room -before- testing lighting, Bill.
Eggshell paint is semi-reflective, but it doesn't glare like semi and
full gloss paints do. It will make quite a difference, guaranteed.

I still think 11 fixtures will be too bright for you. (Have your wife
take a picture once you get it done. I want to see if you're wearing
shades in there. ;)

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:39:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/3/2011 12:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/3/2011 11:03 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:20 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> FWIW I don't think you can see the difference between using flat and
>>>>> gloss white paint. I just lit up my new 3 car garage with lamps and
>>>>> painted most of the garage gloss white.
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT the gloss paint tends to be easier to wipe down with out stains
>>>>> soaking in or hand prints being left behind. And dust tends to not be
>>>>> quite as attracted to a gloss surface. Flat paints tend to be dirt
>>>>> magnets.
>>>>
>>>> Leon, if you have sunlight in your shop at any time, you'll see why
>>>> gloss is such a bummer. Glare galore! Eggshell is the happy medium.
>>>> It's _very_ washable, doesn't collect dust, and doesn't glare.
>>>
>>>
>>> SORRY! Let me correct that to, I have "Satin" that gets sun light and no
>>> glare but does have more reflection than an egg shell or flat.
>>
>> As someone who is choosing, I'm curious whether you would you chose
>> Satin again?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>Absolutely, I am very happy with the sheen and color, and that it is
>still clean in a 7 month old shop that has been creating lots of saw
>dust. Actually the color by a normal persons standards is white, the
>color chip says Swedish Coffee?

Wait just a darned minute here. You're saying that you, a Festool
user, have a shop which is full of sawdust? WTF,O?

Does Not Compute.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/4/2011 2:33 AM, Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>
> Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?
>
> I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
> I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price of
> paint really go up, huh?
>
> White should make a good canvas for my mural...
>
> Bill

Now that is what I left the same color, a light flat beige color. I did
not want to go to that much trouble and most the light hitting the
ceiling is blocked by the lamp base. All other light hitting the
ceiling has already been reflected from some where else. I still have
what my wife describes as the tit up landing zone.

On 8/4/2011 11:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:01:21 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/4/2011 2:33 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>> Back to Bill: PAINT THE SHOP PURE WHITE. NO TINTS, NO COLOR. OK?
>>>
>>> Paint the ceiling satin too, huh?
>>>
>>> I DO think I'll go with WHITE as you so subtly suggested. Although
>>> I have brought any paint strips home. I suppose that makes the price of
>>> paint really go up, huh?
>>>
>>> White should make a good canvas for my mural...
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> Now that is what I left the same color, a light flat beige color. I did
>> not want to go to that much trouble and most the light hitting the
>> ceiling is blocked by the lamp base. All other light hitting the
>> ceiling has already been reflected from some where else. I still have
>> what my wife describes as the tit up landing zone.
>
> I won't ask. ;) But I think your ceiling would give you more light
> if you put a coat of white on it, Leon. Noticeable light.
>
>
> Regarding your first sentence:
>
> Q: What did the Jewish American Princess say while she was having sex?
>
> A: Beige. I think I'll paint the ceiling beige.
>
>
> --
> In the depth of winter, I finally learned
> that within me there lay an invincible summer.
> -- Albert Camus


I suppose there could be more light but I have plenty and the effort was
not worth my while.

On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:54:59 -0400, "Morgans" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> I learned there are 4 kinds: flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Not quite accurate, with the 4 kinds.
>
>Eggshell is a color of paint; just an off white. It can be purchased in
>flat semigloss and gloss.

Not even close, and no cigar. ;) I made that same mistake once and
the lady (I use that term loosely) nearly had my jewels for it. =:0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloss_%28paint%29
http://www.resene.co.nz/homeown/probsolv/glosslvl.htm
http://www.managemylife.com/mmh/articles/authored/paint-sheen-guide
http://www.diyadvice.com/diy/painting/paint/selection/


>Eggshell is definitely
>just an off shade of white, and is not a descriptor of the shine of the
>finish, at any rate.

Maybe in NC, but the rest of the world considers it a gloss level.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 06:47:18 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/4/2011 12:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:49:15 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/3/2011 12:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>>> The brand of paint Mennards was leaning me towards was "Dutch Boy".
>>>> How does that rate? It was regularly $25/gal on sale for $20/gal.
>>>> I just bought some primer today.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> I have never used Dutch Boy however let me restate, Dutch Boy, Glidden,
>>> Sherwin Williams, Prat& Lambert are all top brand paints. Don't buy
>>> their cheapest paint. Regardless of whet "top" brand you buy, you want
>>> their best paint. Keep in mind that while you may think that you may
>>> never need the "higher" quality paint for your shop or garage the higher
>>> quality paints tend to go on the wall much better and with much less
>>> effort from you aside from the performance you get out of the paint
>>> years down the road.
>>
>> Truth! But it's a truth I've yet to convince customers on. (I'm just
>> glad I don't do much painting.)
>
>To tell you the trugh the better the paint the less of a chore it is in
>all aspects of the paint job. Better coverage so fewer paint strokes,
>better coverage so single coat applications,

I guess I haven't used enough of the good stuff to see any which give
me a true single-coat coverage yet, darn it. I found Painter's
Essentials brushes which are as good as Purdy but cost less than 1/2
the price. Unfortunately, I forgot where I bought them and can't find
them locally any more. I love those things!


>clean up is actually better
>and faster especially with oil based paints however that may have a lot
>to do with knowing the tricks of putting a bit of mineral spirits on the
>brush before dipping it in the paint and using the same to clean the

Yeah, I dip my brush in water and shake it out before painting with
latex, too. I recently made a run to HD after seeing a paint roller
and brush spinner for ten bucks. They stopped carrying those almost 4
years ago but they're still in the inventory. Grrrrrr!


>brush. We only used thinner to thin the paint. And with the better
>paints, less mess from dripping or paint runs.

Yeah, the better paints are almost a gel nowadays. I love it.


>>> Price never indicates the quality for sure but I once painted a kitchen
>>> for a customer, including the inside of her pantry. I had installed new
>>> cabinet door and drawer fronts and drawers and painted the insides of
>>> the cabinets too. I used "1" gallon of Pratt& Lambert Alkaid based oil
>>> enamel and coverage was great. IIRC 10 years ago I paid about $50 per
>>> gallon, but it only took one gallon and one coat.
>>
>> One-coat alkyd? Amazing. What color? Over a white base, or did you
>> tint the primer? I've gotta start doing that.
>
>Actually it was white over a light blue. No primer, at the time it was
>stated that no primer was needed and to expect single coat coverage.
>However we did wipe every thing down with a "liquid sand paper" prior to
>painting.

TSP equivalent?


>> Our local home improvement store is now selling P&L. I'll have to give
>> it a try next time. One client is sold on Miller AcryLite exterior
>> house paint, and I now love it after using some on his rental unit.
>
>I did some repainting of the exterior on the last house, always used
>Sears Best Life Time Guarantee Polyurethane exterior paint. That works

Oh, sh*t. Poly in the house paint now? I'll bet that recoats nicely.
NOT.


>real well too. But I noticed that at the time that they were stocking
>P&L paint. Questioning the paint guy at Sears he indicated that P&L had
>been bought out by Sherwin Williams. Not sure I would swear to that
>being factual or not myself but no reason to not believe it. It used to

Fact. 1995 http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-17547696.html

OMG! Look at the weird SW line:

--snip--
Sherwin-Williams Paints

The Paint Stores Segment, known as Sherwin-Williams Paints, was the
first section of the company to be established, in 1866. These stores
market and sell Sherwin-Williams branded architectural paints and
coatings, industrial and marine products, and original equipment
manufacturer product finishes and similar items. As of January 1, 2011
the Paint Stores segment operated 3,954 individual paint stores. The
Consumer segment develops, manufactures, and distributes various
paints, coatings, and related products to third party customers and
the Paint Stores segment. Sherwin-Williams is the parent company of
other brands such as Duron, M.A.B. Paints, Minwax, Krylon, Mautz Paint
Co., Purdy, Bestt Liebco, Thompson's WaterSeal, H&C, Pratt & Lambert,
Martin Senour, Dutch Boy, Easy Living, Weatherbeater, and on August
28, 2007 Sherwin Williams purchased Columbia Paint & Coatings. In
2007, the company introduced its first "Idea Center" in Shaker
Heights, Ohio, in an effort to provide customers with an interior
design environment as contrasted with its conventional paint stores
--snip--

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 07:06:37 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>Yeah one of my buddies that used me to do the wood work repairs in the
>home he was always fixing up for a realtor got me into painting. We
>probably painted 40+ houses since 1998. The radio was necessary tool.
>;~)

Leon, Leon, you've got to start trimming some of your posts. >150
lines of rhetoric in this message you just answered.

On 8/4/2011 12:54 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> I learned there are 4 kinds: flat, eggshell, satin and semigloss.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Not quite accurate, with the 4 kinds.
>
> Eggshell is a color of paint; just an off white. It can be purchased in

flat semigloss and gloss.
>
> In wall and trim types of paint, flat is usually used for walls, with
> semigloss often chosen for the same room to be used on the trim. Flat
> does not reflect a point light source in a way that the point light can
> still be seen as a point. (like a light bulb)
>
> Semigloss will reflect a point light source some, but will diffuse it some.
>
> Gloss has a shine that will allow a person to see the point light
> reflected, almost like a mirror or piece of glass.
>
> Satin is a term usually used with clear finishes, and compares to flat.
> Semigloss is next, then gloss; all when talking about wood finishes.
>
> I hope this is all what others remember, but I am not looking at product
> on the shelf as I write this, so I might be off some. Eggshell is
> definitely just an off shade of white, and is not a descriptor of the
> shine of the finish, at any rate.

Actually you are both correct, EggShell is a sheen and it is a color.

http://paintpro.net/Articles/PP802/PP802-Eggshell_Finishes.cfm

Google egg shell paint and you will get many references backing up both
descriptions

On 8/4/2011 2:55 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 06:47:18 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote
>>
>> To tell you the trugh the better the paint the less of a chore it is in
>> all aspects of the paint job. Better coverage so fewer paint strokes,
>> better coverage so single coat applications,
>
> I guess I haven't used enough of the good stuff to see any which give
> me a true single-coat coverage yet, darn it. I found Painter's
> Essentials brushes which are as good as Purdy but cost less than 1/2
> the price. Unfortunately, I forgot where I bought them and can't find
> them locally any more. I love those things!
>

I have several Purdy but have been switching over to Wooster brushes,
Lowe's caries them along with most better hardware and paint stores.
Considerably less expensive and just as good IMHO. Wooster also makes
those better quality foam brushes that I am always mentioning when
applying general finishes Arm-R-Seal.



>
>> clean up is actually better
>> and faster especially with oil based paints however that may have a lot
>> to do with knowing the tricks of putting a bit of mineral spirits on the
>> brush before dipping it in the paint and using the same to clean the
>
> Yeah, I dip my brush in water and shake it out before painting with
> latex, too. I recently made a run to HD after seeing a paint roller
> and brush spinner for ten bucks. They stopped carrying those almost 4
> years ago but they're still in the inventory. Grrrrrr!
>
>
>> brush. We only used thinner to thin the paint. And with the better
>> paints, less mess from dripping or paint runs.
>
> Yeah, the better paints are almost a gel nowadays. I love it.

Actually Gliddin way back when,,1972 had a gel type paint. A friend
that ran a Glidden store open up a can, scooped some paint out with a
putty knife, sliced it up and put it on a plate with crackers. He had
to keep a close eye on anyone wanting to sample the paint and crackers.
I have never seen a paint since that was that thick.