Re: Joinery suggestions

Greg Guarino wrote:

> As I visualize it, he intends to make the tabletop from nominal 2"x6"
> "reclaimed door" material *on flat* as a "frame" around some thinner
> material, which will float in a dado. He will then notch out each of
> the four corners to accept the 2x2 legs, such that the tops of the
> legs will be visible from above the table. He will then join the 2x2
> legs into the notches, using a loose tenon on one side and pocket
> screws on the other. (As an aside, the width of the beadlock stock
> would have to be awfully close to the thickness of both his legs and
> his "2x6" material) Thus each leg will be in contact on two sides
> with the top, and each area of contact will be 1.5" x 1.5".

Shows to go ya - I did not visualize that. Sometimes that happens.

>
> Now I admit that I like things to be indestructible. I tell my family
> that should an earthquake destroy the house, they should make sure to
> hide under something I built. I'm not a "fine" woodworker yet, but my
> stuff is not coming apart. I assure you I know absolutely nothing
> about "cross-grain issues". But most tables I have seen, especially
> old ones, do indeed incorporate some sort of frame; the top is not
> the only horizontal member. Or at the very least there are some sort
> of braces involved.

Agreed. I wasn't suggesting a lack of a frame or apron. Sorry if that came
across.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:57:17 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 10/17/2012 10:41 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>=20
> > Update: First, thank y'all for the good suggestions. I'm going to go =
for the Beadlock to support the miters. Still noodling about attaching the=
legs. The 2x6 apron will be running with the 6" horizontal, so I should h=
ave plenty of depth for the tenons. I'd like the 2x2 legs to be at the cor=
ners so I'll need to be careful setting up the mortises for the legs.
>=20
> >
>=20
> I'm curious about your design. If I were making a table, and I have had=
=20
>=20
> such thoughts, I would make a frame that connects the four legs together=
=20
>=20
> first, then attach the top to it. Your comment about needing to be=20
>=20
> careful "setting up the mortises" for the legs makes me wonder if you=20
>=20
> envision a top sitting on four legs without a frame.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> As I have frequently mentioned, I am no expert. I'm not even an expert's=
=20
>=20
> idiot nephew. But I do have a reasonable sense of geometry, and I don't=
=20
>=20
> see 2x2 legs attached only by their tops to be a sturdy design. Is that=
=20
>=20
> what you have in mind?


Greg ...
First of all, I popped for the Beadlock pro system (on sale at Rockler). I=
'll use that to M/T the four corners of the 6" wide by 2" deep apron. The =
top will float in dados about 1/4 inch from the top, that way I don't have =
to worry about expansion/contraction issues. My current thinking about the=
2" square legs is to cut a notch in the four corners and use M/T for one s=
ide and pocket hole from the bottom of the apron for the other.

Larry

Richard wrote:
> On 10/17/2012 7:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 10/17/2012 10:15 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>>> Should you tire of advice from knowledgeable, experienced people,
>>>>> you can read the following for a change-of-pace. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I recently bought the Beadlock basic jig:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18088
>>>>
>>>> Another "loose tenon" form of M&T joinery, as previously suggested
>>>> ... and an excellent one for those without dedicated tools, on a
>>>> limited budget, and with the time to drill multiple holes for a
>>>> project.
>>>
>>> In other words - a good solution but not one worthy of Karl's
>>> advocacy. Note the use of terms like "limited budget" and "time to
>>> drill multiple holes" - the voice of the expert who likes to talk
>>> down to those around him. Thinly veiled supremacy.
>>
>> Above statement retracted with apologies to all. Bad day with
>> issues with an 84 year old mother (with Dementia), and in-home care
>> staff. Should not play on the internet when I'm having a day like
>> today.
>
>
>
> Ya'll all play nice, or I'm tellin' Mom.
>
>
> THEN you'll be sorry.

Hell - she won't remember you telling her... unfortunately...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/17/2012 7:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2012 10:15 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>>>> Should you tire of advice from knowledgeable, experienced people,
>>>> you can read the following for a change-of-pace. :)
>>>>
>>>> I recently bought the Beadlock basic jig:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18088
>>>
>>> Another "loose tenon" form of M&T joinery, as previously suggested
>>> ... and an excellent one for those without dedicated tools, on a
>>> limited budget, and with the time to drill multiple holes for a
>>> project.
>>
>> In other words - a good solution but not one worthy of Karl's
>> advocacy. Note the use of terms like "limited budget" and "time to
>> drill multiple holes" - the voice of the expert who likes to talk
>> down to those around him. Thinly veiled supremacy.
>
> Above statement retracted with apologies to all. Bad day with issues with
> an 84 year old mother (with Dementia), and in-home care staff. Should not
> play on the internet when I'm having a day like today.
>



Ya'll all play nice, or I'm tellin' Mom.


THEN you'll be sorry.

Update: First, thank y'all for the good suggestions. I'm going to go for =
the Beadlock to support the miters. Still noodling about attaching the leg=
s. The 2x6 apron will be running with the 6" horizontal, so I should have =
plenty of depth for the tenons. I'd like the 2x2 legs to be at the corners=
so I'll need to be careful setting up the mortises for the legs.

Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 10/19/2012 3:29 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>> Greg ...
>> First of all, I popped for the Beadlock pro system (on sale at
>> Rockler). I'll use that to M/T the four corners of the 6" wide by
>> 2" deep apron. The top will float in dados about 1/4 inch from the
>> top, that way I don't have to worry about expansion/contraction
>> issues. My current thinking about the 2" square legs is to cut a
>> notch in the four corners and use M/T for one side and pocket hole
>> from the bottom of the apron for the other. Larry
>
> Ah, the Pro system. Looks nice. I'll have to get by with my bench vise
> and shims. :)
>
> As I mentioned, I'm a relative novice, so you can take my opinions
> with a boulder of salt. (although I was the guy who suggested
> Beadlock) I think I can visualize your plan. Assuming your 2" "apron"
> is actually 1.5" thick, I'm still not sure I'd fasten the legs the way you
> describe, although it's a better method than what I had originally
> imagined. Do "Gramp's" grandkids ever climb on the furniture? I think
> some horizontal frame pieces (spanning between the legs, just under
> the top) attached to the legs with the loose tenons would make it
> pretty indestructible.

Greg - just go take a look at how things like this were assembled 100 or
more years ago, and are still solidly in service today. You can get all
carried away with joinery that hopes to deal with things like cross-grained
issues, or you can look at how that was ignored and has survived just nicely
over all these years. Sometimes one can over complicate very simple things.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/17/2012 10:41 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> Update: First, thank y'all for the good suggestions. I'm going to go for the Beadlock to support the miters. Still noodling about attaching the legs. The 2x6 apron will be running with the 6" horizontal, so I should have plenty of depth for the tenons. I'd like the 2x2 legs to be at the corners so I'll need to be careful setting up the mortises for the legs.
>
I'm curious about your design. If I were making a table, and I have had
such thoughts, I would make a frame that connects the four legs together
first, then attach the top to it. Your comment about needing to be
careful "setting up the mortises" for the legs makes me wonder if you
envision a top sitting on four legs without a frame.

As I have frequently mentioned, I am no expert. I'm not even an expert's
idiot nephew. But I do have a reasonable sense of geometry, and I don't
see 2x2 legs attached only by their tops to be a sturdy design. Is that
what you have in mind?

On 10/19/2012 3:29 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> Greg ...
> First of all, I popped for the Beadlock pro system (on sale at Rockler). I'll use that to M/T the four corners of the 6" wide by 2" deep apron. The top will float in dados about 1/4 inch from the top, that way I don't have to worry about expansion/contraction issues. My current thinking about the 2" square legs is to cut a notch in the four corners and use M/T for one side and pocket hole from the bottom of the apron for the other.
>
> Larry

Ah, the Pro system. Looks nice. I'll have to get by with my bench vise
and shims. :)

As I mentioned, I'm a relative novice, so you can take my opinions with
a boulder of salt. (although I was the guy who suggested Beadlock) I
think I can visualize your plan. Assuming your 2" "apron" is actually
1.5" thick, I'm still not sure I'd fasten the legs the way you describe,
although it's a better method than what I had originally imagined. Do
"Gramp's" grandkids ever climb on the furniture? I think some horizontal
frame pieces (spanning between the legs, just under the top) attached to
the legs with the loose tenons would make it pretty indestructible.

On 10/19/2012 4:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
>> On 10/19/2012 3:29 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>>> Greg ...
>>> First of all, I popped for the Beadlock pro system (on sale at
>>> Rockler). I'll use that to M/T the four corners of the 6" wide by
>>> 2" deep apron. The top will float in dados about 1/4 inch from the
>>> top, that way I don't have to worry about expansion/contraction
>>> issues. My current thinking about the 2" square legs is to cut a
>>> notch in the four corners and use M/T for one side and pocket hole
>>> from the bottom of the apron for the other. Larry
>>
>> Ah, the Pro system. Looks nice. I'll have to get by with my bench vise
>> and shims. :)
>>
>> As I mentioned, I'm a relative novice, so you can take my opinions
>> with a boulder of salt. (although I was the guy who suggested
>> Beadlock) I think I can visualize your plan. Assuming your 2" "apron"
>> is actually 1.5" thick, I'm still not sure I'd fasten the legs the way you
>> describe, although it's a better method than what I had originally
>> imagined. Do "Gramp's" grandkids ever climb on the furniture? I think
>> some horizontal frame pieces (spanning between the legs, just under
>> the top) attached to the legs with the loose tenons would make it
>> pretty indestructible.
>
> Greg - just go take a look at how things like this were assembled 100 or
> more years ago, and are still solidly in service today. You can get all
> carried away with joinery that hopes to deal with things like cross-grained
> issues, or you can look at how that was ignored and has survived just nicely
> over all these years. Sometimes one can over complicate very simple things.
>
As I visualize it, he intends to make the tabletop from nominal 2"x6"
"reclaimed door" material *on flat* as a "frame" around some thinner
material, which will float in a dado. He will then notch out each of the
four corners to accept the 2x2 legs, such that the tops of the legs will
be visible from above the table. He will then join the 2x2 legs into the
notches, using a loose tenon on one side and pocket screws on the other.
(As an aside, the width of the beadlock stock would have to be awfully
close to the thickness of both his legs and his "2x6" material) Thus
each leg will be in contact on two sides with the top, and each area of
contact will be 1.5" x 1.5".

Now I admit that I like things to be indestructible. I tell my family
that should an earthquake destroy the house, they should make sure to
hide under something I built. I'm not a "fine" woodworker yet, but my
stuff is not coming apart. I assure you I know absolutely nothing about
"cross-grain issues". But most tables I have seen, especially old ones,
do indeed incorporate some sort of frame; the top is not the only
horizontal member. Or at the very least there are some sort of braces
involved.

Gramp's shop wrote:
> Greg ...
> First of all, I popped for the Beadlock pro system (on sale at
> Rockler). I'll use that to M/T the four corners of the 6" wide by 2"
> deep apron. The top will float in dados about 1/4 inch from the top,
> that way I don't have to worry about expansion/contraction issues.

Nope. But your wife will have to worry about cleaning along that recessed
edge :(

> My current thinking about the 2" square legs is to cut a notch in the
> four corners and use M/T for one side and pocket hole from the bottom
> of the apron for the other.

Or - if you are going to make notches - you could just use a screw from each
side of each notch into each leg, plug the countersunk screw holes with face
grain plugs. Easy.


--

dadiOH
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