Buy American? Starrett measuring tools.....

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> writes:

>More importantly, you can't run a company on loyalty alone. Even if
>some of your customers still buy "for old times sake", the majority of
>them are fickle and will move away.

They're not being fickle-- if they bought from you for a reason,
and you remove that aspect of your product, they'll stop buying
for the same reason they were attracted to your product in the
first place. The reason could be quality, or price, or whatever,
but if you change the deal, you'll have to attract a different
set of customers.

The strange thing is when every manufacturer chases the
low-priced end of the market. Haven't they ever heard of niche
markets?

Jay Pique wrote:
>Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
>four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer...


Once upon a time they had a straight edge. It left. Now
it's back? How long is it? Got a URL?

UA100, with so many questions...

J. Clarke wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
>>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
>>>tools
>>>are still pretty good.
>>
>>
>>Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
>>cheapened and I won't buy them.
>
>
> I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
> wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?
>

My introduction to changes occurred when my "favorite" wrench, a 1/2 x
9/16 box end finally wore out. This was the only wrench I had that could
operate on some really sadistically placed header bolts. It had thin
walls, a great profile, and tons of available leverage. Probably made
sometime before the 70's. The replacement had thicker walls which
probably made it stronger, but it would no longer work on those
difficult bolts. The openings were also stamped off-center (all of them
in the bin at the store were this way) and it was overall more crudely
constructed.

-BR



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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:38:13 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
>Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
>from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
>to justify the additional cash outlay.
>
>I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
>where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
>but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
>measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
>have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
>competitive pricing? Just wondering...
>
>Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
>four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
>Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
>from them!!
>
>JP
>*************************
>NAFTA friendly.


I just ordered a Starrett combination square from Amazon for $164.99
today (Ouch!). With $200 or more there is a $25 promotion on tools.
And they have free shipping.

>http://tinyurl.com/5gfww for the straightedges.

Looking for something a wee bit longer/jointer set up.

>They've also got a new large sholder plane and a very cool roller
>stand, which can be seen here - http://tinyurl.com/5ytzf .

>The roller stand looks to be very well thought out and sturdily made.
>It's now on the list.

Can you set up a jointer with it?

UA100

Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Jay Pique wrote:
>>Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
>>four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer...
>
>
>Once upon a time they had a straight edge. It left. Now
>it's back? How long is it? Got a URL?
>
>UA100, with so many questions...

http://tinyurl.com/5gfww for the straightedges.

They've also got a new large sholder plane and a very cool roller
stand, which can be seen here - http://tinyurl.com/5ytzf .

The roller stand looks to be very well thought out and sturdily made.
It's now on the list.

JP

BruceR <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
>> wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?
>>
>
>My introduction to changes occurred when my "favorite" wrench, a 1/2 x
>9/16 box end finally wore out. This was the only wrench I had that could
>operate on some really sadistically placed header bolts. It had thin
>walls, a great profile, and tons of available leverage. Probably made
>sometime before the 70's. The replacement had thicker walls which
>probably made it stronger, but it would no longer work on those
>difficult bolts. The openings were also stamped off-center (all of them
>in the bin at the store were this way) and it was overall more crudely
>constructed.

My experience exactly. I had the same problems with replacement
sockets and pliers, except the overall crudeness of the replacements
leads me to suspect that the extra thickness is to compensate for
weaker alloys. I seem to break replacements, the originals wore out.
That "lifetime warranty" would mean more if the replacements were the
same quality as the original. As it is, I feel that the Sears warranty
is being fulfilled by Kmart.

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 14:43:16 GMT, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:38:13 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
>>Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
>>from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
>>to justify the additional cash outlay.
>>
>>I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
>>where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
>>but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
>>measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
>>have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
>>competitive pricing? Just wondering...
>>
>>Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
>>four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
>>Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
>>from them!!
>>
>>JP
>>*************************
>>NAFTA friendly.
>
>I suffered with the same decision. I chose to go with Mitutoyo. I've
>got one of their dial calipers and a combination square with a center
>finder and protractor head. Love that protractor head.
>
>However, if Starett wasn't so far out their price wise, I'd get that.
>But for a hobbyist woodworker, it's just too much.

Heh - that's almost exactly what I said to the guy at the Starrett
booth last week. I was nice about it, and said that I'd prefer to buy
Starrett, but with Mitutoyo at half the cost it's tough to justify.
He shrugged.

JP

Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
> Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
> from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
> to justify the additional cash outlay.
>
> I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
> where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
> but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
> measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
> have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
> competitive pricing? Just wondering...
>
> Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
> four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
> Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
> from them!!
>
> JP
> *************************
> NAFTA friendly.

I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.
Mike

Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
>>then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.

> Keeter, Sorry about that, I really meant to include a smiley at the end
>of that comment. No disrespect nor derision were intended, only a slight
>amount of ribbing.

Zat's OK. Smiley or no smiley my come back was/would have
been, why yes, all my saw dust is free.

Or something like that.

> Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.

Muzzles suck, don't they?

UA100

In article <[email protected]>, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
>Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools

I think the key word there is "almost". Compare -- I'm choosing my words
carefully here -- the guaranteed accuracy of the Starrett tools with the
claimed accuracy of the imported competition.

>from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
>to justify the additional cash outlay.

They *are* pricy, I'll grant you that. But we're back to the old maxim,
discussed here many times: buy the best, cry once; buy cheap, cry every time
you use it.
>
>I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
>where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
>but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
>measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
>have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
>competitive pricing? Just wondering...

AFAIK, Starrett does not sell direct. But there's a wide range of prices for
the same tool, depending on the retailer. Check Google, Froogle, and eBay.
Auctions and garage sales may be your friends, too -- a long time ago, digging
through a carton of miscellaneous stuff at an auction, I found at the bottom
of it a wooden box containing a Browne & Sharp micrometer. Put that sucker
right back where I found it, too, at the bottom under everything. Paid a buck
and a half for the carton. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message ..
<snip>> factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
> entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
> Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

G'day Keith,

Well, there's um, ahh. <rethinks> Did you say 10-12 for a combo set?

Groggy (who's finally getting some shop time)

The measuring tool is only half the battle. How you use it and how you
cut are also important. Point being, the best tool in the world is
useless if you don't use it correctly or you can't cut worth a rats ass.

Grandpa

Jay Pique wrote:
> I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
> Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
> from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
> to justify the additional cash outlay.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
>> though.
>
> Such as?

The method of forging them.

I don't recall all th e details of the differences as I've not bothered to
look at them for a few years now. Find an old tool set and take it to the
store with you. Chances are, you'll buy another brand after making the
comparisons.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Sounds good. Unfortunately I find myself paying by the mile until Monday
> (seems an oil change turned into a $2k repair job drat it all). Rain
> check?

Any time.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
> wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?
>

Functional style The older wrenches were easier to use, the heads had a
better angle. The box wrenches had a true offset, not just a bend on the
end allowing you to put more torque on a nut. The newer ones are cheaper to
make.

Some of the better screwdrivers do have a better grip (rounded for the hand)
than the old ones.

The new sockets do have the size imprinted in very large numbers. That is
handy for the weekend warrior, but a pro can sight the 9/16 over the 5/8 at
twenty feet in the dark. The new sockets are cheaper in other ways though.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:32:23 -0500, Joe Wells wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 16:04:40 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
>>>a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.
>>
>> Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with these
>> things, but my impression was always that they were about as good as Black
>> & Decker (i.e. not very).
>
> The Craftsman brand really did have great tools for a long time. I still
> use my grandfather's drill from the 40's. Many, many Craftsman RAS and TS
> from decades past are still in service and still outperform their current
> C-man kin. Their mechanic's tools are still very good.
>
> So the perception of "Craftsman=good tools" is somewhat justified. Guys
> who are just starting to put their own tools together are likely to see
> quite a few Craftsman tools among his father's and grandfather's tools.
> Plus professional endorsements (Hi, Bob!) and endless commercials help to
> prop the image up. I've never seen DeWalt, Grizzly, Jet, Makita, General,
> Laguna, etc. advertise on television. Delta commercials are uncommon.
>
> So it can take some time (and a few less than satisfactory purchases)
> before the Craftsman myth is truly revealed.

Joe,

Delta does advtertise on PBS woodworking shows like "New Yankee Workshop"
and others..

Jeremy <<supercommodoreatmaildotcom>>

Andy Dingley wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
>>a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.
>
> Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with
> these things, but my impression was always that they were about as
> good as Black & Decker (i.e. not very).

Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand tools
are still pretty good. In their portable power tools they have "Craftsman"
and "Craftsman Professional", with "Craftsman Professional" being quite
good--they're often major brands with a Sears label and possibly slightly
changed trim. Their current Craftsman Professional jigsaw is a black Bosch
for example. Sears also carries selected models from other brands. Their
stationary power tools are for the most part not very good, but they're
apparently trying to turn that around.

> Lately I've been wearing out Eclipse hacksaw blades, even the bi-metal
> ones. This _really_ annoys me, because I have another of their blades,
> supposedly identical, that I know I've been using for twenty years. If
> you ever let the quality slip, it does get noticed.
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
>> tools
>> are still pretty good.
>
>
> Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
> cheapened and I won't buy them.

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Larry Kraus wrote:

> BruceR <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
>>> wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?
>>>
>>
>>My introduction to changes occurred when my "favorite" wrench, a 1/2 x
>>9/16 box end finally wore out. This was the only wrench I had that could
>>operate on some really sadistically placed header bolts. It had thin
>>walls, a great profile, and tons of available leverage. Probably made
>>sometime before the 70's. The replacement had thicker walls which
>>probably made it stronger, but it would no longer work on those
>>difficult bolts. The openings were also stamped off-center (all of them
>>in the bin at the store were this way) and it was overall more crudely
>>constructed.
>
> My experience exactly. I had the same problems with replacement
> sockets and pliers, except the overall crudeness of the replacements
> leads me to suspect that the extra thickness is to compensate for
> weaker alloys. I seem to break replacements, the originals wore out.
> That "lifetime warranty" would mean more if the replacements were the
> same quality as the original. As it is, I feel that the Sears warranty
> is being fulfilled by Kmart.

Are you talking about the standard or the "pro" line?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
>> wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?
>>
>
> Functional style The older wrenches were easier to use, the heads had a
> better angle.

Are you talking about open end wrenches or something else? If open-end
theirs seem to have the same "angle" as every other manufacturer and the
new ones seem to have the same angle as the ones I used in the '60s.

> The box wrenches had a true offset, not just a bend on the
> end allowing you to put more torque on a nut. The newer ones are cheaper
> to make.

Actually, they have both kinds.

> Some of the better screwdrivers do have a better grip (rounded for the
> hand) than the old ones.
>
> The new sockets do have the size imprinted in very large numbers. That
> is handy for the weekend warrior, but a pro can sight the 9/16 over the
> 5/8 at
> twenty feet in the dark.

A pro who doesn't need bifocals maybe.

> The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
> though.

Such as?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
>>> though.
>>
>> Such as?
>
> The method of forging them.

Does the new method make them inferior in some way?

> I don't recall all th e details of the differences as I've not bothered to
> look at them for a few years now. Find an old tool set and take it to the
> store with you. Chances are, you'll buy another brand after making the
> comparisons.

So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs old
production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
production and found them lacking?




--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Does the new method make them inferior in some way?
>
> Yes, the inside of the socket is different and affects the epth it can
> use.

Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the socket--the
only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive itself.

>> So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs
>> old
>> production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
>> production and found them lacking?
>
> I have a couple of the combination wrenches. I used them. They are
> lacking. They are not as good as my old ones.

But what was the nature of the lack?

> Since you seem intent on finding all the details, go buy a couple of the
> new
> tools and then stop by my house. I'll get out my original 40 year old
> Craftsman toolbox, all the tools (most of them) I still have from the
> original set and well try them out, one by one. You can then decide from
> your own experience which set is better. I have a couple of things to do
> on
> my car so we can give them an honest workout. Is Saturday OK for you?

Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far. You
drink beer?

> Ed

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the
>> socket--the only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive
>> itself.
>
> Not on the replacement 3/4" I just looked at. About half way up the inside
> there is a shoulder that would stop the head. Maybe they changed them
> again.
>
>
>
>>
>> But what was the nature of the lack?
>
> Its a touchy feely thing. You can't get into the same spots and leverage
> because of the angle of the ends and the grip does not seem as good in
> use.
>
>
>
>>
>> Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far.
>> You
>> drink beer?
>
> I'm in northeast CT. Yep, I even have a bottle of chili beer (with the
> chili pepper inside) if you want to give it a try.

Sounds good. Unfortunately I find myself paying by the mile until Monday
(seems an oil change turned into a $2k repair job drat it all). Rain
check?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Andy Dingley wrote:
>Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with
>these things, but my impression was always that they were about as
>good as Black & Decker (i.e. not very).


You impression is correct. Among the brain dead who will
take the time to fill out a survey (1), it's not.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=419

(1) These are the same people we allow to vote for and
elect our elected officials making me think this whole idea
of democracy has a serious flaw and maybe a test wouldn't be
totally out of line.

UA100

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:14:29 GMT, Glen <[email protected]> wrote:


>Actually this survey makes perfect sense. If you ask Joe Homeowner, who
>uses a tool once every few months, to name some tool brands, probably
>the first (and in many cases only) brand name he'll come up with will be
>Sears. When he goes to the mall with his wife he probably sees all
>those cool toys and imagines them great, having no basis of comparison.
> As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other
>companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read
> FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).
>
>Glen

I agree if the measure is of brand recognition. I must respectfully disagree
with the "perfect sense" if the survey is supposed to be an objective measure
of quality.

Note the column headed "salience". That is the percentage of responders who
claimed to know enough to have a valid opinion. I didn't see any indication that
the "non-salient" opinions were excluded from the tally. Therefore I assume Joe
Homeowner's opinion was counted whether or not he claimed to be "aware and
informed enough to rate the brand".

"In my ("salient", "non-salient" - choose one) opinion that invalidates the
survey for anything other than a "now isn't that nice" exercise.



Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

Buying woodworking tools is like buying anything else...like shoes,
clothes, cars, etc. You're buying quality, top shelf stuff, but you're
also buying the brand name and reputation of the company too. That's
why Starret can, and rightly so, charge more for their tools.

Layne

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:02:33 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>I suffered with the same decision. I chose to go with Mitutoyo. I've
>>got one of their dial calipers and a combination square with a center
>>finder and protractor head. Love that protractor head.
>>
>>However, if Starett wasn't so far out their price wise, I'd get that.
>>But for a hobbyist woodworker, it's just too much.
>
>Heh - that's almost exactly what I said to the guy at the Starrett
>booth last week. I was nice about it, and said that I'd prefer to buy
>Starrett, but with Mitutoyo at half the cost it's tough to justify.
>He shrugged.

"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Anyone
> have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
> competitive pricing? Just wondering...

They don't sell direct.

They do, however, have an overstock page on their web page. They are sold
out of the 60" straight edges that went for $160. But for that same price,
you can get a vibrometer.

I just picked up a NEW Starrett 6" square for about 20% off retail,
including shipping) but I had to trust a guy on (gulp) eBay.

Bob

"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
> Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
> from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
> to justify the additional cash outlay.
>
> I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
> where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
> but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
> measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
> have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
> competitive pricing? Just wondering...
>
> Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
> four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
> Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
> from them!!
>
> JP
> *************************
> NAFTA friendly.

Yes. It's getting so that buying things of high quality, realizing that it
will cost more, is hard to do. Cheap is all you can find.

"Ron Bean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> The strange thing is when every manufacturer chases the
> low-priced end of the market.

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:38:13 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
>Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
>from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
>to justify the additional cash outlay.
>
>I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
>where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
>but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
>measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad fuckups. Anyone
>have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
>competitive pricing? Just wondering...
>
>Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
>four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
>Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
>from them!!
>
>JP
>*************************
>NAFTA friendly.

I suffered with the same decision. I chose to go with Mitutoyo. I've
got one of their dial calipers and a combination square with a center
finder and protractor head. Love that protractor head.

However, if Starett wasn't so far out their price wise, I'd get that.
But for a hobbyist woodworker, it's just too much.

Mike at American Sycamore wrote:
>I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.


Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding
them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that
we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of
machinists here in the upper midwest.

Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when
there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the
PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr
Tumicos.

UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12"
Starrett 3-piece combo...

(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales
to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one
could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the
cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this
factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:

>(1) Yes I know there are *some* good/great Craftsman
>tools/machines but on a whole it's safer to assume that you
>won't be buying the best and crying once.

Yes. IF you buy the older Craftsman tools. I asked my dad to send me
one of me late grandfather's combo square. I was disappointed to see
"Craftsman" etched into it...BUT, was surprised at how good it was
once I started using it! It was probably bought in the the 50s, 60s or
70s when Craftsman tools were made well.

Won't be buying a Starret or Mitutoyo combo square for a while,

Layne

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:14:29 GMT, Glen <[email protected]> wrote:


> As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other
>companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read
> FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).
>
>Glen

All of those magazines are sold in supermarkets, not to mention Family
Handyman. There is no secret handshake required to flip through any
of them while Suzy picks out veggies. My local supermarket has padded
chairs in the magazine and book aisle! <G>

Delta, Jet, Porter Cable, Dewalt, Bosch, etc... show up in many home
centers and warehouse stores, including SEARS! My local Sears and
Sears Hardware stores display the good brands side by side with
Craftsman and B&D. Home Depot and Lowes market directly at Harry
Homeowner, if he wasn't born yesterday, he's been there.

Dewalt, Porter Cable, Bosch and Makita sponsor sports, including a ton
of auto racing. Many of them sponsor or have sponsored Norm, This Old
House, Warehouse Warriors, and home improvement / makeover shows that
attract more and more of an audience.

Nowadays, you'd really have to have just stepped off the UFO, with
your last Earth visit in the 60's, to not know of Bosch, PC, Dewalt,
Makita, etc... and believe B&D or Craftsman is top notch stuff.
Those companies are milking a reputation, and it may take a
generation, but the reputation will correct itself.

Barry

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 18:58:39 -0700, Layne <> wrote:

>That's why Starret can, and rightly so, charge more for their tools.

Compared to Mitutoyo ?

IMHO, Starrett are doomed - like so many US and UK manufacturing
companies. No, I don't know an answer, this is just an observation.
But when I can buy a $100 Starrett tool for $5 from Lucky Golden
Hedgehog (and it's rubbish) or for $50 from Mitutoyo and it's as good
if not better than Starrett's, then why _should_ I buy the US version?

You can talk about "loyalty" all you like, but sometimes that just
becomes an excuse for a stupid buying decision. HP's printers have
been rubbish for some years, and this is the company that gave us the
LaserJet (my 15 year old LaserJet is still running, my 2 year old
inkjet is scrap)

More importantly, you can't run a company on loyalty alone. Even if
some of your customers still buy "for old times sake", the majority of
them are fickle and will move away.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
>a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.

Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with
these things, but my impression was always that they were about as
good as Black & Decker (i.e. not very).


Lately I've been wearing out Eclipse hacksaw blades, even the bi-metal
ones. This _really_ annoys me, because I have another of their blades,
supposedly identical, that I know I've been using for twenty years. If
you ever let the quality slip, it does get noticed.

--
Smert' spamionam

Unisaw A100 wrote:
<snip>
>
> You impression is correct. Among the brain dead who will
> take the time to fill out a survey (1), it's not.
>
> http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=419
>
> (1) These are the same people we allow to vote for and
> elect our elected officials making me think this whole idea
> of democracy has a serious flaw and maybe a test wouldn't be
> totally out of line.
>
> UA100

Actually this survey makes perfect sense. If you ask Joe Homeowner, who
uses a tool once every few months, to name some tool brands, probably
the first (and in many cases only) brand name he'll come up with will be
Sears. When he goes to the mall with his wife he probably sees all
those cool toys and imagines them great, having no basis of comparison.
As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other
companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read
FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).

Glen

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 16:04:40 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
>>a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.
>
> Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with these
> things, but my impression was always that they were about as good as Black
> & Decker (i.e. not very).

The Craftsman brand really did have great tools for a long time. I still
use my grandfather's drill from the 40's. Many, many Craftsman RAS and TS
from decades past are still in service and still outperform their current
C-man kin. Their mechanic's tools are still very good.

So the perception of "Craftsman=good tools" is somewhat justified. Guys
who are just starting to put their own tools together are likely to see
quite a few Craftsman tools among his father's and grandfather's tools.
Plus professional endorsements (Hi, Bob!) and endless commercials help to
prop the image up. I've never seen DeWalt, Grizzly, Jet, Makita, General,
Laguna, etc. advertise on television. Delta commercials are uncommon.

So it can take some time (and a few less than satisfactory purchases)
before the Craftsman myth is truly revealed.

--
Joe Wells

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 05:01:24 -0700, Destined wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:32:23 -0500, Joe Wells wrote:

>> I've never seen DeWalt, Grizzly, Jet, Makita,
>> General, Laguna, etc. advertise on television. Delta commercials are
>> uncommon.

> Delta does advtertise on PBS woodworking shows like "New Yankee Workshop"
> and others..

Which is why I labeled them "uncommon".

--
Joe Wells

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
> tools
> are still pretty good.


Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
cheapened and I won't buy them.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Does the new method make them inferior in some way?

Yes, the inside of the socket is different and affects the epth it can use.



>
> So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs
> old
> production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
> production and found them lacking?

I have a couple of the combination wrenches. I used them. They are
lacking. They are not as good as my old ones.

Since you seem intent on finding all the details, go buy a couple of the new
tools and then stop by my house. I'll get out my original 40 year old
Craftsman toolbox, all the tools (most of them) I still have from the
original set and well try them out, one by one. You can then decide from
your own experience which set is better. I have a couple of things to do on
my car so we can give them an honest workout. Is Saturday OK for you?
Ed

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:27:27 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark & Juanita wrote:
... snip
>> Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.
>
>Muzzles suck, don't they?
>

You ain't kidding. Somewhere about last Wednesday, I was able to read
rec.ww, but all attempts to post resulted in connection timeouts. I wrote
Teranews "help" desk the following request for help (BTW, I have the paid
account, not the free account):

> For the past 4 days, I have been unable to post to any of the newsgroups
> to which I subscribe (rec.woodworking,
> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking). I am able to download headers and
> read the groups, but am unable to post; all postings come back with a
> timeout error after several minutes of attempting to post.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Regards,

To which the ever-helpful folks at Teranews had the following response:

"All 3.95 one time setup fee ( free accounts ) use the free.teranews.com on
port 119 news server only in your news client. All monthly billed
accounts use the news.teranews.com news server on port 119 or
alt.teranews.com on port 443 in your news client only.
Login to the manage accounts area with your username and password to
verify it says active before your username and password will work."

Somehow, I think a "help-bot" is the only help available at Teranews. It
probably keyed off my signature that included the verbiage: Username:
<name>

>UA100

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the socket--the
> only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive itself.

Not on the replacement 3/4" I just looked at. About half way up the inside
there is a shoulder that would stop the head. Maybe they changed them
again.



>
> But what was the nature of the lack?

Its a touchy feely thing. You can't get into the same spots and leverage
because of the angle of the ends and the grip does not seem as good in use.



>
> Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far.
> You
> drink beer?

I'm in northeast CT. Yep, I even have a bottle of chili beer (with the
chili pepper inside) if you want to give it a try.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:22:08 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:54:20 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Mike at American Sycamore wrote:
>>>I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.
>>
>>
>>Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding
>>them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that
>>we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of
>>machinists here in the upper midwest.
>>
>>Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when
>>there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the
>>PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr
>>Tumicos.
>>
>>UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12"
>>Starrett 3-piece combo...
>>
>>(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales
>>to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one
>>could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the
>>cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this
>>factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
>>entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
>>Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...
>
> Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
>then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.
>

Keeter, Sorry about that, I really meant to include a smiley at the end
of that comment. No disrespect nor derision were intended, only a slight
amount of ribbing.

Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.

I haven't checked the many other replies in the thread, so this may
have been covered already. Starret's been around since 1880. Many of
the tools a woodworker might use are readily available used. While
some may be damaged and unusable, most were owned and cared for by
machinists whose living depended on their accuracy. Many of the used
Starrett tools I own have long outlived their original owners.

Most machinists' tools were made to measure .001" or less. Even if
not quite so percise, I don't know of too many woodworkers more
accurate than .01".

While they were certianly expensive when purchased new (as now) their
current value can greatly exceed the current cost on the used (or
previously owned) market.

Alan

Greg Millen wrote:
>G'day Keith,

Hey Der/Ho Der/Hi Der Greg,

>Well, there's um, ahh. <rethinks> Did you say 10-12 for a combo set?

On a good day a body can find a Starrett 4R blade in the
$1/$2 range, maybe $5. A head might set you back $5/$10,
maybe as high as $20. A full set (head/scribe/blade) can be
found in the $10/$20 range, maybe $30. My best was the full
boat (head/scribe/blade/protractor/center head) for $20ish.

>Groggy (who's finally getting some shop time)

sigh...

UA100, just lounging this weekend after 19 straight days at
work (at work of course)...

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:54:20 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike at American Sycamore wrote:
>>I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.
>
>
>Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding
>them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that
>we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of
>machinists here in the upper midwest.
>
>Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when
>there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the
>PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr
>Tumicos.
>
>UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12"
>Starrett 3-piece combo...
>
>(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales
>to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one
>could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the
>cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this
>factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
>entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
>Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.

Andy Dingley wrote:
>More importantly, you can't run a company on loyalty alone. Even if
>some of your customers still buy "for old times sake", the majority of
>them are fickle and will move away.


It's interesting how perception plays into all of this.
Let's look at two companies that rely on the perception of
their products.

Starrett deservedly enjoys a perception that their tools are
the finest that one can buy. Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.
The difference is Starrett owns their perception based on
fact whereas Craftsman is riding on past performance.
Starrett's audience is very narrow where as Craftsman's is
continually resupplied by those who have bought into the
hype. Starrett is under some pretty stiff competition from
tool makers whose products are as good but being produced
less expensively. Craftsman continues to degrade (1) but
continues to thrive because the new customers have not
caught on yet.

It really kinda depends on your niche.

(1) Yes I know there are *some* good/great Craftsman
tools/machines but on a whole it's safer to assume that you
won't be buying the best and crying once.

UA100, no solutions here, just an observation or three...

B a r r y wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:14:29 GMT, Glen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other
>>companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read
>> FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).
>>
>>Glen
>
>
> All of those magazines are sold in supermarkets, not to mention Family
> Handyman. There is no secret handshake required to flip through any
> of them while Suzy picks out veggies. My local supermarket has padded
> chairs in the magazine and book aisle! <G>
>
I don't disagree with you one bit, the info is out there, as are all the
mags, but I maintain that the average, non-serious wooddorker does not
see those ads or appreciate the difference between a quality tool and a
Sears tool.

> Delta, Jet, Porter Cable, Dewalt, Bosch, etc... show up in many home
> centers and warehouse stores, including SEARS! My local Sears and
> Sears Hardware stores display the good brands side by side with
> Craftsman and B&D. Home Depot and Lowes market directly at Harry
> Homeowner, if he wasn't born yesterday, he's been there.
>
Again, I agree with you, they are there, but most Joe Homeowner types
remember Bob Vila's smiling face and assumes that the Sear's name
represents quality. After all, we all know that Bob Vila is a serious
professional. ;-)

> Dewalt, Porter Cable, Bosch and Makita sponsor sports, including a ton
> of auto racing. Many of them sponsor or have sponsored Norm, This Old
> House, Warehouse Warriors, and home improvement / makeover shows that
> attract more and more of an audience.
>
> Nowadays, you'd really have to have just stepped off the UFO, with
> your last Earth visit in the 60's, to not know of Bosch, PC, Dewalt,
> Makita, etc... and believe B&D or Craftsman is top notch stuff.
> Those companies are milking a reputation, and it may take a
> generation, but the reputation will correct itself.

Here, sir, I must disagree, if only from anicdotal evidence. I can't
count the times I have talked tools with non-wooddorking friends and
co-workers who appear to have never heard of Delta (a faucet company?)
and Powermatic (don't they make the vegetable dicers that we see on the
infomercials?)

Glen
>
> Barry