Down & Dirty Drawers Redux

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> New subject line because the original has gone way OT. :-)
>
> So, I'm in the home of some new friends. Beautiful half-million dollar
> home in the affluent Brentwood TN area, outside Nashville. Lots of
> "McMansions" in the area, but this home is decidedly more traditional
> and sensible, architecturally.
>
> I notice that the drawer front to the trash pull-out cabinet is loose.
> Then I see that one cabinet drawer front is missing and many others are
> loose or have been repaired with mending plates. I tell the home owner
> that I'd love to repair the drawer with the missing front and I take it
> home to fix. Here's where it gets fun.
>
> These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low density
> particle board, like those horrible shelving units you can buy at
> Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000 home in an area of the country where
> $149,000 gets you a 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre. This is
> a luxury home for the market.
>
> Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even gluesd together.
> The only glue on the drawer is a bead of what I'd describe as "hot glue"
> underneath, around the perimeter of the bottom panel. The box was
> constructed with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED together!
> The false fronts then screwed to the front panel of the box. EVERY one
> of these drawers WILL fail and fall apart from repeated use.
>
> I would be a little more forgiving if these drawers were made of solid
> wood, because staples hold pretty well in hardwood. But particle
> board!?! You can practically pull a 2" staple out of particle board with
> your fingers.
>
> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
> home qality kitchen cabinets.
>


FWIW I live in a new neighborhood where the homes reach half the price of
the one you describe. A neighbor living in a home built by a different
builder than mine was having problems with the kitchen drawers back
breaking out. I repaired it for him but the back were attached with
staples shot in line with the direction that the drawer traveled. There
was no mystery as to what the problem was. Additionally the drawer bottoms
seemed to be of less quality than MDF or particle board. They appeared to
be just over 1/8" thick and made of some type reinforced card board.

I have added 6, half inch Baltic birch drawers under our kitchen island and
replaced the 2 upper kitchen island drawers with the same. I'm hoping the
rest of the cabinets will hold up.

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 17:44:23 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/8/2013 5:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> I think the biggest problem is the consumer. No knowledge, nor caring, nor
>> respect for real quality. As long as it looks good, it's good enough. No -
>> as long as it looks good, it's good. Then... it all falls apart. Oh well.
>> It's a culture thing - no more value withing people for quality. Now, it's
>> all about appearances. As long as it looks...
>
>Not that they have a choice ... but you're right, there a bunch of
>ignorant shits out here, and you gets what you deserve.

A lot of contractors out there don't try to educate the customer any
more. They don't bother with choices which I've seen over time your
very good about. A lot of people never get the choice of quality as
many contractors just go for the low bid. But I'll agree as a whole I
don't think consumers are getting smarter.

Mike M

On 11/8/2013 12:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>
> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
> home qality kitchen cabinets.

Don't get me started. This is the absolute very reason I started
building the kitchens in the homes I build ten years ago.

Not a month goes by that I don't get a call from someone in my
neighborhood, where the average home price is closer to $1M (a house I
built and sold for $925k three years ago just went back on the market
for $1.2M last week, and it will sell in a week) to repair kitchen and
home office cabinets in million dollar homes that are less than ten to
fifteen years old and built during the last boom that ended in 2008.

Big factors: built-in, instead of shop built cabinets; cheapest possible
material; a work force/culture doing the work that really doesn't give a
shit if the cabinets fall apart after they get paid; and builders who
simply will not put money where it can't be seen.

In short, the price of a home has no bearing WHATSOEVER on the quality
of workmanship of ANY aspect of construction, and hasn't for some time
... it is skin deep cosmetics and location ONLY.

It is what it is ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/9/2013 12:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, November 8, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
> .
>> In short, the price of a home has no bearing WHATSOEVER on the quality
>>
>> of workmanship of ANY aspect of construction, and hasn't for some time
>>
>> ... it is skin deep cosmetics and location ONLY.
>
> That fits it to a "T" here as well. Extra emphasis on location.
>
> And I hate to see some of the buyers get screwed these days, but most buyers don't seem to know what to look for in a quality home these days. They are like me with my truck; if something goes wrong with it, I don't know what to do. I can build a house, but I can't diagnose a sputter in my truck engine, or know how to fix it when it over-revs. One can't know everything.
>
> Sadly, the location buyers spend many, many thousands more than they should for the product they get just to be in a certain area. If it makes them happy, good for them. I like working on their houses when things go wrong. But I am sad for those that think they are buying a truly well built home.
>
> Ironically, there are a couple of small tract home builders here that actually build a better home that some of the custom guys. All walls on 16" centers, blocking on all cabinets areas, blocking on all tub enclosures and towel/toilet roll holders. They use over sized headers on openings, better grade trims, better grade tiles, better grade cabinets, better paint, etc.
>
> A few of the custom builders I have seen lately are slopping through their project any way they can and rely on excellent layout and decorating design work done with the latest fad of materials to carry the day. Strip away the cosmetics and you don't have much at all.
>
> Robert
>


I think location might be a bigger over priced expense than a cheaply
built kitchen. You know the areas, the house is about 4 times more
expensive than a similar sized home located elsewhere. You could take
those expensive homes, put $100,000.00 into the kitchens and they would
still be 2~3 times more expensive and only better built in the kitchen.

Location, location, location!

There are 5~7 houses in Swingmans neighborhood that give you more
quality for your money than the house next door and Swingman built all
of those. :~)

Then there is Kalifornia where $500,000 might get you 1,000 SF in
certain areas and those homes are dumps.

On Friday, November 8, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
.=20
> In short, the price of a home has no bearing WHATSOEVER on the quality=20
>=20
> of workmanship of ANY aspect of construction, and hasn't for some time=20
>=20
> ... it is skin deep cosmetics and location ONLY.

That fits it to a "T" here as well. Extra emphasis on location. =20

And I hate to see some of the buyers get screwed these days, but most buyer=
s don't seem to know what to look for in a quality home these days. They a=
re like me with my truck; if something goes wrong with it, I don't know wha=
t to do. I can build a house, but I can't diagnose a sputter in my truck e=
ngine, or know how to fix it when it over-revs. One can't know everything.=
=20

Sadly, the location buyers spend many, many thousands more than they should=
for the product they get just to be in a certain area. If it makes them h=
appy, good for them. I like working on their houses when things go wrong. =
But I am sad for those that think they are buying a truly well built home.

Ironically, there are a couple of small tract home builders here that actua=
lly build a better home that some of the custom guys. All walls on 16" cen=
ters, blocking on all cabinets areas, blocking on all tub enclosures and to=
wel/toilet roll holders. They use over sized headers on openings, better g=
rade trims, better grade tiles, better grade cabinets, better paint, etc.

A few of the custom builders I have seen lately are slopping through their =
project any way they can and rely on excellent layout and decorating design=
work done with the latest fad of materials to carry the day. Strip away t=
he cosmetics and you don't have much at all.

Robert

"Dave in Texas" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 11/8/2013 5:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> I think the biggest problem is the consumer. No knowledge, nor
> caring, nor
> respect for real quality. As long as it looks good, it's good
> enough. No -
> as long as it looks good, it's good. Then... it all falls apart. Oh
> well.
> It's a culture thing - no more value withing people for quality.
> Now, it's
> all about appearances. As long as it looks...

Not that they have a choice ... but you're right, there a bunch of
ignorant shits out here, and you gets what you deserve.


Am certain most of us [all of us?] have done work for clients where
the
husband was NEVER on board with the remodel ["What's wrong with what we
have?"] and the wife is concerned only with what her girlfriends are
going
to think.

Dave in Texas

Seems to be a problem with insecurity in Texas mostly.

--

mike

On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 15:59:21 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> New subject line because the original has gone way OT. :-)
>>
>> So, I'm in the home of some new friends. Beautiful
>> half-million dollar home in the affluent Brentwood TN
>> area, outside Nashville. Lots of "McMansions" in the
>> area, but this home is decidedly more traditional and
>> sensible, architecturally.
>> I notice that the drawer front to the trash pull-out
>> cabinet is loose. Then I see that one cabinet drawer
>> front is missing and many others are loose or have been
>> repaired with mending plates. I tell the home owner that
>> I'd love to repair the drawer with the missing front and
>> I take it home to fix. Here's where it gets fun.
>> These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low
>> density particle board, like those horrible shelving
>> units you can buy at Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000
>> home in an area of the country where $149,000 gets you a
>> 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre. This is a
>> luxury home for the market.
>> Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even
>> gluesd together. The only glue on the drawer is a bead of
>> what I'd describe as "hot glue" underneath, around the
>> perimeter of the bottom panel. The box was constructed
>> with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED
>> together! The false fronts then screwed to the front
>> panel of the box. EVERY one of these drawers WILL fail
>> and fall apart from repeated use.
>> I would be a little more forgiving if these drawers were
>> made of solid wood, because staples hold pretty well in
>> hardwood. But particle board!?! You can practically pull
>> a 2" staple out of particle board with your fingers.
>>
>> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home,
>> with mobile home qality kitchen cabinets.
>
>Unfortunately, something junky can *look* pretty good. Very good AAMOF.
>And that's what most consumers go by; they have zero knowledge of materials
>or construction.
>
>As to particle board itself, there are worse things...MDF for one (IMO,
>YMMV). Still, both have their place. And both conserve both lumber and
>money.
>
>When I had an office I had a number of modular cabinets. Scandinavian type.
>They were all walnut veneer over particle board, edged with solid wood.
>They looked great and were not cheap; on the expensive side, actually. They
>were well constructed and I would buy them again in a heart beat.
yes, the "beaver puke" as a buddy of mine calls partical board, is a
lot better in many many ways than the MDF, or "highly compressed
paper" - and a whole lot lighter. If kept dry, MDF IS a bit more
stable, dimensionally, than partical board - and perhaps is a little
stronger/harder.

On 11/10/2013 4:31 AM, Mike M wrote:
> A lot of contractors out there don't try to educate the customer any
> more.

I have tried mightily, and still do, but have come to the reluctant
conclusion that many, if not most, aren't educable in these matters
these days.

AAMOF, I include the following more or less 'boiler plate' blurb
(changed as needed to fit the particular job), and backed by some hard
won experience, with almost every initial contact I make when responding
to an inquiry/request for a bid on a kitchen or cabinet job:

>>>Begin Karl's Customer Education Attempt <<<

There are basically two methods to populating a kitchen or space with
cabinetry:

'Built-in" cabinetry; and "Shop Built" cabinetry:

~ "Built-in" cabinets:

Because they actually become part of the interior wall structure
themselves, Built-in's are generally quicker to implement and therefore
less expensive. They also have the possible benefit, by being built into
the actual space, of inexpensively providing more usable kitchen space.

The downside to "built-in" cabinetry, particularly in a kitchen
environment, is that they become part of the walls, floors and ceiling
other structural components of your home. Walls, and other structural
components, in a house move, along with anything attached to them (your
new "built-in" cabinets). It is not uncommon, over an increasing period
of years, to find that, as the result of almost guaranteed structural
movement, with built-in cabinetry the doors and drawers will no longer
close/operate properly, along with gaps and other possible undesirable
side effects of wall and foundation movement.

This dimensional instability is the very reason, along with not being
able to find anyone who could build cabinets to my standards and
satisfaction, that I decided to build the kitchens in the homes we
caused to be built these past ten years or so. I did not want either of
us, me as the builder, or you the buyer, having to deal with the
statistically higher likelihood of callbacks when using this method.

~ "Shop Built" cabinets:

As the name implies, shop built cabinets are built off site in a factory
or cabinet shop and are then attached, as a separate component, to the
walls, floors and/or ceilings of the intended space. When done properly,
this allows the separate cabinet components to maintain their
dimensions, squareness and integrity despite any movement of the walls,
etc.

In general there are two choices with "shop built" cabinets:

1. "Off the shelf" cabinets - are usually factory built (KraftMaid brand
is a good example) and purchased individually to fit the intended space
as closely as possible.

(NOTE: "off the shelf" cabinetry is built in industry standard 3"
increments as far as width, depth and height are concerned, and
therefore may not precisely fit into your kitchen space, necessitating
the use of "spacers" which results in unusable space).

2. "Custom made" cabinets" - are usually built by a cabinetmaker in a
cabinet shop and, most importantly, are almost always built to precise
dimensions that will maximize use of the intended space as well as
fulfill the requirements of your design.

Other than the drawbacks above of using industry standard 3" increments
in the "off-the-shelf" variety, shop built cabinets are generally more
expensive but make up for the additional cost with a decided increase in
dimensional stability over time.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: A well made, and square, "shop built" cabinet, even
when attached to a wall that moves, will almost always remain intact and
square, resulting in properly working doors and drawers for the life of
the installation.

"Shop built" cabinets are also usually more amenable to future upgrades
and design changes. (the 'look and feel' of a kitchen is almost always
dependent upon the design of the visible components: the cabinet doors
and drawer fronts).

Given the choice, it is my professional and experienced opinion as a
cabinetmaker that "custom made" "shop built" cabinets are the absolute
best for longevity, most desirable for use of space, and are ultimately
the most cost effective over time.

With that out of the way, and having built many homes, and having
designed and built the kitchens that go into them (including a number of
full kitchen remodels where existing cabinets were removed, the space
was taken "to the studs", and the new cabinets fabricated and
installed), I can attest to the fact that the use of a "Certified
Kitchen Designer" (CDK) can be a smart choice, with a few caveats:

CKD's are particularly valuable with respect to their up-to-date
knowledge of the latest trends, resources and products; and using one
can be instrumental in taking your new kitchen space from simply being
adequate, to being exceptional.

That said, a designer is only one piece of the puzzle, and should you
choose to use a CDK, they should only be considered as a part of your
team, for it is the collective and coordinated effort of all involved
who will properly implement your wishes in a manner that ultimately
results in the kitchen of your dreams.

~ And, most importantly, not just an implementation of a design, but one
that will stand the test of time.

Designers, as a rule, do not do the actual work themselves, but
subcontract that work to someone else (most, but not all, often benefit
financially from that arrangement). The homeowner, not being thoroughly
experienced in this aspect, will often find that this delegation of the
work, and therefore any close and experienced supervision, may result in
a weak link with the potential to impact the desired results over time.

Besides choosing the designer, you should absolutely consider taking
firm control of, and guiding the direction of this important aspect
yourself, as it will be a decision with which you alone will have to
ultimately live.

~ Simply put, the letting of a project out for "bid" by the designer may
not necessarily insure the results you expect.

In addition to you, and the designer, as members of your team, it is of
utmost importance to insure that the team member who will actually
_implement_ the design is thoroughly experienced, with your best
interests in mind, and that he/she is made a part of the process _as
early in the project as possible_.

In that regard, a proven track record in implementing a kitchen design
in all aspects, from providing supervision in removing existing
cabinetry and components, to preparing the space for the new cabinets,
to the actual installation of all the component parts of the new kitchen
(including all mechanical, electrical, ventilation and lighting) is of
utmost importance in choosing this key element of your team.

What may not be so apparent is the inestimable benefit of choosing
someone who, besides being experienced in all aspects of implementing a
kitchen design, is the person be the one who actually has a direct hand
in building the cabinetry themselves.

I can absolutely guarantee that there will be no one on your team as
thoroughly familiar with all aspects of the nuts and bolts of realizing
your kitchen dream as the person who is also charged with the task of
actually fabricating the component parts and cabinetry that implement
any design, including, in all cases, the CKD themselves. :)

A maxim that has the ring of truth and experience:

*The success of each step in a project of this type is dependent upon
that which went before*

It is in the custom cabinetmaker's best interest, and therefore yours,
that he/she closely monitor and supervise each of these steps. Do
yourself and your new kitchen a favor and, whomsoever you chose, make
him/her a part of the process as _early as possible_, for it is he/she
who will ultimately insure the long term success of your project, long
after everyone else has gone their way.

>>> End Customer Education Attempt <<<

Some take it to heart, but with most of the current generation who can
afford to do these project make you wonder if it was just a waste of time.

Instant gratification, and the transient nature of the average homeowner
these days, plays a much bigger part in their decisions IME.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 12:31:14 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
>home quality kitchen cabinets.

Makes you wonder what else may be cheaped out in this $500,000 home.
I'm guessing you won't be ready to offer your repair services as quick
again at this home.

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:31:16 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/10/2013 4:31 AM, Mike M wrote:
>=20
> > A lot of contractors out there don't try to educate the customer any
>=20
> > more.

An educated client is much more likely be happy. For the most part. But w=
ith the advent of all the slew of TV shows that give customers ideas of how=
easy it is to do everything under the sun, it is better to let them fall o=
n their face than to spend days/weeks/months educating them. In the end a =
great deal of the time work is price driven.

=20
> I have tried mightily, and still do, but have come to the reluctant=20
>=20
> conclusion that many, if not most, aren't educable in these matters=20
>=20
> these days.

Good example of this is a previous thread in which a poster decided he coul=
d divine the banking culture of San Antonio and Houston by simply using Goo=
gle.
You cannot teach anyone so simple minded much of anything, so why bother?

I am lucky in the aspect that at this point ALL of my business is repeat or=
referral. Not to say that I get all that I bid on, but my batting average=
is high. With repeat or referred clients I will spend as much time as nee=
ded to educate, assist, and to manage their expectations. Thankfully, with=
the group of clients I have had this year they have all wanted the work I =
have done for them performed using very good materials and have paid for go=
od workmanship. That makes me happy, but it isn't always that way.

When I have a prospective client I always try to decide immediately if it i=
s a tire kicker or a real client. Since I do a lot of repair work I am lik=
ely to be called for something small and I make my pitch for the company wh=
ile I am out there on site, then many times get called back later for somet=
hing else.

For my taste there are too many cable and internet educated contractors. I =
don't go to someone's house to debate contracting tips or procedures or to =
educate them beyond their intelligence. Most simply don't want to hear wha=
t 40 years in the trades brings to the table; if some idiot on cable or You=
Tube said it, it carries equal weight. With that in mind, I feel an obliga=
tion to point out my opinion on the subject and will do so as well in an es=
timate or contract.

There are times that I if I do what the client wants, regardless of my opin=
ion (I do remind myself I am a service company, not an artist) on the matte=
r, they are delighted to get what they want. As they should be, it is thei=
r money. And happy customers make great referrals and are likely to refer.=
I don't feel bad about not spending time with these clients as they usual=
ly want to know that I will "do a good job" and "get it finished" on time a=
t a fair price.

It is a rare, but happy day when I get to ply my trade of carpentry to make=
a cabinet, put up some three layered crown molding, make a set of built ca=
binets, or panel out a room with some nice stock.

Sadly, those above mentioned crafts which require the most time, experience=
and dedication pay me the least. I make much more money finishing cabinet=
s than I do building them. Ditto the crown molding. No one makes money pu=
tting up or finishing the one simple piece of crown on a ceiling, but as a =
carpenter I charge per pass on a three layered affair so the pay is no diff=
erent than doing the same room three times. But if I am finishing them out=
, the detailing takes a long time to get all sheens and coverage on the pro=
files correct, so I get a much bigger hit on finishing than putting it up. =
Which requires more skill to me? Installation (and it is infinitely more =
gratifying!). But painting dentils and profiles are time consuming and sca=
ry to a lot of folks so they call me.

Since most of my clients don't know which of the ends to hold when using a =
hammer I don't bother with too many details anymore. I let them tell me wh=
at they want to know and we go from there. I am always pleased to hear ques=
tions from my clients that let me know they are engaged, but I rarely get t=
hem.

Anyway.... good post on your part. As usual, I agree with your thoughts on=
this subject and I thought you did a great job putting them into a coheren=
t form (as opposed to my nonsensical ramblings...)

Robert

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 12:31:14 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>New subject line because the original has gone way OT. :-)
>
>So, I'm in the home of some new friends. Beautiful half-million dollar
>home in the affluent Brentwood TN area, outside Nashville. Lots of
>"McMansions" in the area, but this home is decidedly more traditional
>and sensible, architecturally.
>
>I notice that the drawer front to the trash pull-out cabinet is loose.
>Then I see that one cabinet drawer front is missing and many others are
>loose or have been repaired with mending plates. I tell the home owner
>that I'd love to repair the drawer with the missing front and I take it
>home to fix. Here's where it gets fun.
>
>These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low density
>particle board, like those horrible shelving units you can buy at
>Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000 home in an area of the country where
>$149,000 gets you a 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre. This is
>a luxury home for the market.
>
>Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even gluesd together.
>The only glue on the drawer is a bead of what I'd describe as "hot glue"
>underneath, around the perimeter of the bottom panel. The box was
>constructed with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED together!
>The false fronts then screwed to the front panel of the box. EVERY one
>of these drawers WILL fail and fall apart from repeated use.
>
>I would be a little more forgiving if these drawers were made of solid
>wood, because staples hold pretty well in hardwood. But particle
>board!?! You can practically pull a 2" staple out of particle board with
>your fingers.
>
>Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
>home qality kitchen cabinets.

I had heard how great IKEA was so we visited a store in Atlanta. What
absolute junk. OK, I can understand termite vomit furniture; it's
throw-away, but termite vomit and plastic kitchens? The stuff looked
OK but 25 years? What's the average kitchen remodel? 30k? 50K? We
just laughed. I did buy a butcher block slab for my shop, though.

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 11/8/2013 5:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> I think the biggest problem is the consumer. No knowledge, nor caring,
> nor
> respect for real quality. As long as it looks good, it's good enough.
> No -
> as long as it looks good, it's good. Then... it all falls apart. Oh
> well.
> It's a culture thing - no more value withing people for quality. Now,
> it's
> all about appearances. As long as it looks...

Not that they have a choice ... but you're right, there a bunch of
ignorant shits out here, and you gets what you deserve.


Am certain most of us [all of us?] have done work for clients where the
husband was NEVER on board with the remodel ["What's wrong with what we
have?"] and the wife is concerned only with what her girlfriends are going
to think.

Dave in Texas

-MIKE- wrote:

> These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low density
> particle board, like those horrible shelving units you can buy at
> Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000 home in an area of the country
> where $149,000 gets you a 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre.
> This is a luxury home for the market.

One of my pet peeves - particle board is only useful as an underlayment for
a countertop, or for explosive entertainment, in my opinion. But then, who
am I to say...

>
> Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even gluesd together.
> The only glue on the drawer is a bead of what I'd describe as "hot
> glue" underneath, around the perimeter of the bottom panel. The box
> was constructed with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED
> together! The false fronts then screwed to the front panel of the
> box. EVERY one of these drawers WILL fail and fall apart from
> repeated use.

Yup - don't ya just love it? As long as it looks good to the great mass of
uninformed in some show room somewhere...


> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
> home qality kitchen cabinets.

Welcome to the idiot world we live in.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 11/8/2013 1:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> New subject line because the original has gone way OT. :-)
>
> So, I'm in the home of some new friends. Beautiful half-million dollar
> home in the affluent Brentwood TN area, outside Nashville. Lots of
> "McMansions" in the area, but this home is decidedly more traditional
> and sensible, architecturally.
>
> I notice that the drawer front to the trash pull-out cabinet is loose.
> Then I see that one cabinet drawer front is missing and many others are
> loose or have been repaired with mending plates. I tell the home owner
> that I'd love to repair the drawer with the missing front and I take it
> home to fix. Here's where it gets fun.
>
> These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low density
> particle board, like those horrible shelving units you can buy at
> Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000 home in an area of the country where
> $149,000 gets you a 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre. This is
> a luxury home for the market.
>
> Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even gluesd together.
> The only glue on the drawer is a bead of what I'd describe as "hot glue"
> underneath, around the perimeter of the bottom panel. The box was
> constructed with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED together!
> The false fronts then screwed to the front panel of the box. EVERY one
> of these drawers WILL fail and fall apart from repeated use.
>
> I would be a little more forgiving if these drawers were made of solid
> wood, because staples hold pretty well in hardwood. But particle
> board!?! You can practically pull a 2" staple out of particle board with
> your fingers.
>
> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
> home qality kitchen cabinets.
>
>
I'm no expert in these matters, but it seems to me that "luxury" is only
skin deep these days; perhaps for a long time.

Maybe twenty-five years ago a friend of mine was hired to do repairs all
around a *brand new* house. The house had, among other things, a six-car
garage with an office wing above it. Oh, and it had a *name* too:
"Twelve Gables" or some such. So hardly a low-budget place.

In addition to whatever my friend was being paid for the job, the guy
had a bunch of audio gear he didn't know how to use; I went along to
help cart out whatever we thought we could use.

I took a tour. At a quick glance - at "Real Estate Photo Distance" - the
place looked great. Just don't look too close. Here are just a couple of
the things that needed fixing:

The holes in the sheetrock for the outlets and switches were so raggedly
cut that most of them protruded out past the outlet covers, some as much
as a half-inch. The builders just caulked the gaps and painted over them.

Not to be outdone, the electrician miswired several of the switches,
presumably to make them a good match for the holes.

There were several staircases in the house, some of which had bends and
curves. Each step made a different noise.
Thunk-creeeak-CRACK!-wobble-groan-foomp-thud... One of the more
trapezoidal steps in the curve actually rocked back and forth. It was
not only loose, the stringers under it were cut badly.

Those are the ones that stand out in my mind, but there were repairs to
be made everywhere. My friend was there for a couple of weeks, in a
house no one had yet lived in. Worst of all, he was only there to fix
the superficial stuff. I wonder what greater sins were covered in
sheetrock. In fact, I wonder if it's still standing.



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"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> New subject line because the original has gone way OT. :-)
>
> So, I'm in the home of some new friends. Beautiful
> half-million dollar home in the affluent Brentwood TN
> area, outside Nashville. Lots of "McMansions" in the
> area, but this home is decidedly more traditional and
> sensible, architecturally.
> I notice that the drawer front to the trash pull-out
> cabinet is loose. Then I see that one cabinet drawer
> front is missing and many others are loose or have been
> repaired with mending plates. I tell the home owner that
> I'd love to repair the drawer with the missing front and
> I take it home to fix. Here's where it gets fun.
> These cabinets are all particle board. Not even MDF. Low
> density particle board, like those horrible shelving
> units you can buy at Walmart for $29. This is a $500,000
> home in an area of the country where $149,000 gets you a
> 10 year old, 1700sqft ranch on a half acre. This is a
> luxury home for the market.
> Upon further inspection, I realize they are not even
> gluesd together. The only glue on the drawer is a bead of
> what I'd describe as "hot glue" underneath, around the
> perimeter of the bottom panel. The box was constructed
> with (get this) NON-locking rabbet joints, STAPLED
> together! The false fronts then screwed to the front
> panel of the box. EVERY one of these drawers WILL fail
> and fall apart from repeated use.
> I would be a little more forgiving if these drawers were
> made of solid wood, because staples hold pretty well in
> hardwood. But particle board!?! You can practically pull
> a 2" staple out of particle board with your fingers.
>
> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home,
> with mobile home qality kitchen cabinets.

Unfortunately, something junky can *look* pretty good. Very good AAMOF.
And that's what most consumers go by; they have zero knowledge of materials
or construction.

As to particle board itself, there are worse things...MDF for one (IMO,
YMMV). Still, both have their place. And both conserve both lumber and
money.

When I had an office I had a number of modular cabinets. Scandinavian type.
They were all walnut veneer over particle board, edged with solid wood.
They looked great and were not cheap; on the expensive side, actually. They
were well constructed and I would buy them again in a heart beat.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

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Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 11/8/13, 2:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> When I had an office I had a number of modular cabinets. Scandinavian type.
> They were all walnut veneer over particle board, edged with solid wood.
> They looked great and were not cheap; on the expensive side, actually. They
> were well constructed and I would buy them again in a heart beat.
>

I'm guessing they had glued, locking joints, not stapled butt joints. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:

>
> Big factors: built-in, instead of shop built cabinets; cheapest
> possible material; a work force/culture doing the work that really
> doesn't give a shit if the cabinets fall apart after they get paid;
> and builders who simply will not put money where it can't be seen.
>

I think the biggest problem is the consumer. No knowledge, nor caring, nor
respect for real quality. As long as it looks good, it's good enough. No -
as long as it looks good, it's good. Then... it all falls apart. Oh well.
It's a culture thing - no more value withing people for quality. Now, it's
all about appearances. As long as it looks...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:24:46 -0600, Swingman wrote:

>> Boggles the mind. Half million dollar, 4-5,000sqft home, with mobile
>> home qality kitchen cabinets.
>
> Don't get me started. This is the absolute very reason I started
> building the kitchens in the homes I build ten years ago.

We moved into a new (old) house last year and it has an alcove in the
basement family room that would be just right for a library (we have lots
of books). I went looking and found some in the $100 to $250 range.
They were all particle board or MDF. The only difference was the cheap
ones were covered with a printed paper wood grain and the expensive ones
were covered with very thin veneer. For about $150 each I can build some
using hardwood plywood and solid wood face frames and shelf edges. OK,
it'll be a fair amount of work (I need 7 of them) but at least I won't be
ashamed to show the result.

--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 09:31:16 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> >>> End Customer Education Attempt <<<

Well written and reasoned. Thank you for the insight of your personal
experience.

On 11/8/2013 5:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> I think the biggest problem is the consumer. No knowledge, nor caring, nor
> respect for real quality. As long as it looks good, it's good enough. No -
> as long as it looks good, it's good. Then... it all falls apart. Oh well.
> It's a culture thing - no more value withing people for quality. Now, it's
> all about appearances. As long as it looks...

Not that they have a choice ... but you're right, there a bunch of
ignorant shits out here, and you gets what you deserve.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)