Is crack a common drug for ebay bidders?

On 10 Nov 2004 15:32:52 -0800, [email protected] (Charles Lerner) wrote:

>I've tried to figure out e-bay and the way you say you bid makes
>sense; however, why do you enter your one bid "very late in the
>auction"? Is that to reduce the time for people to outbid simply on a
>competitive basis?
>
>Charles Lerner

It is strictly a bidding tactic. Let's say I submit my maximum bid of $25 as the
first bid for an item whose opening bid is $10.00. The bid will be entered as a
$10 bid. Now, along comes "John Nibbler" and bids $15.00. (For simplicity, let's
assume a constant bid increment of $1.00). The proxy system will advance the bid
to $16.00 with me still as the high bidder. Mr. Nibbler thinks about it for a
while and decides that if he was willing to pay $15.00 then maybe it's worth
$17.00. So he bids $17.00. The current bid jumps to $18 and I'm still the high
bidder. Now, Mr. Nibbler feels the competitive juices begin to flow and begins
to think of it as a sporting event or contest that he must WIN at all costs.

Mr. Nibbler then submits a sequence of bids with small incremental increases in
the maximum until he is the "HIGH BIDDER" and "WINS" the contest. He has totally
forgotten that an auction is not a competition in which there are winners and
losers but is simply a venue for buying and selling. I have participated in
auctions where the same bidder has submitted up to a dozen bids with only a
dollar or two separating the bid amounts. That type of bidding is entirely
appropriate in a live auction, but strikes me as somewhat asinine in a proxy
bidding environment such as eBay.

I try to always avoid the use of the terms "WIN" and "LOSE" when the topic of
discussion is an eBay auction. Bid what you are willing to pay, and walk away.
But, if you do it early in the auction, you are very likely to fall prey to old
John Nibbler running the price up too high so he can shout, "I WON!!!!". In
truth, all Mr. Nibbler has accomplished is to pay too much for the item and
artificially, and hopefully, temporarily, inflate the item's market value.




Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

"TWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> The worst is consumer electronics, I've given up looking for a bargain
> in those categories. Too many ignorant people with auction fever.

No kidding. I needed an XD card for my camera. I thought, I bet a good
deal can be had from ebay. Wrongo! I went to costco and paid $20 less than
ebay.
SH

In article <[email protected]>, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:25:10 GMT, Lobby Dosser
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, Gregp, no, I'd prefer that people operate by the system that
>>> is in place, rather than circumventing it.
>>
>> They do. A maximum bid is placed and the highest maximum bid wins. If the
>> highest maximum bid was placed 10 seconds after the item was listed, it
>> wins.
>
>The reason for the last-second bid is only to prevent someone else from
>doing to you, exactly what you are doing to them. Do you at least agree
>with that statement?

"What you wish not done to you, do not to others. This is the whole of the
Law. All the rest is commentary." -- Hillel

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In article <[email protected]>, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>No doubt this is true. I've done it. If I see someone bidding on the same
>things I've been looking at I check to see if there is something else they
>are bidding on to see if there is something of interest that I don't know
>about.
>
How do you check to see what items somebody is bidding on?

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Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and someone
> >bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum bid, what
> >does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you, then notify the
> >sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is likely too late for
> >him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding your maximum means that
> >you will never be outbid by a bid under your maximum.
> >
> You are correct. A "sniper" bid is no different than any other bid. It is only a
> "snipe" when it is placed near the end of the bidding period. As far as the
> operation within eBay is concerned, it doesn't matter whether the bid is placed
> manually or using some "clock-watcher" software program.
>
> eBay enters (and increases to the proxy maximum) the "snipe" bid exactly the
> same way as any other proxy bid is entered (and increased). If you lose an eBay
> auction to a "sniper", it is simply because you either didn't enter the true
> maximum amount you were willing to pay, or the later bidder was willing to pay
> more.
>
> In the absence of unusual circumstances, I will typically enter only one bid in
> an eBay auction. But that bid will be for an amount which I am not willing to
> exceed - not even by one cent. Also, it will typically be entered very late in
> the auction. If the auction ends with mine as the highest bid, it is only
> because my proxy maximum was higher than anyone else's proxy maximum. If that
> makes me a sniper, then "lock and load".
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA


I've tried to figure out e-bay and the way you say you bid makes
sense; however, why do you enter your one bid "very late in the
auction"? Is that to reduce the time for people to outbid simply on a
competitive basis?

Charles Lerner

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:03:01 -0800, "Slowhand" <I'm@work> wrote:

>
>"TWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> The worst is consumer electronics, I've given up looking for a bargain
>> in those categories. Too many ignorant people with auction fever.
>
>No kidding. I needed an XD card for my camera. I thought, I bet a good
>deal can be had from ebay. Wrongo! I went to costco and paid $20 less than
>ebay.
>SH
>
I've gotten some really good deals on eBay but mostly on niche items
or items where the auction expires at a really weird time like 2AM
Pacific Time. It seems the prices tend to increase rapidly in the
last 5 minutes of an auction so if you can find one that expires at a
weird time (and you're willing to stay up/get up at that hour) you
might be able to get a bargain.

I've bought everything from a $1 legal size digital scanner to a boat
and two cars on eBay but I'm disciplined enough to bid what the price
I'm willing to pay and I don't bid twice.

Some categories I won't even bother with - consumer electronics is one
of them.

I've gotten some decent wood on eBay but not at bargain prices. The
advantage of eBay for wood purchases is the ability to quickly look
through a huge 'stack' of wood and find something that you like for a
specific project. In most of these cases price is not the issue
(within reason of course ;-) Saves on gas (petrol for our friends
across the sea) too...

TWS

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> There are bargains, but you have to know what things are worth and know
> when to stop bidding.

Or sometimes you just want to WIN the fscking auction and get on with your
life. I paid grossly too much for a trumpet because I was shopping for
that kind of trumpet, this one was in much better than average condition,
and I wanted to WIN IT ALREADY, so I could stop having to juggle the
watchlist. I got sniped, sniped again, sniped a third time, sniped a
fourth time... All of this took me over two weeks, because I didn't want
to have two bids out at the same time. I don't bid more than I can afford.

I decided to jack up the price on the last one so ridiculously high that I
would win it once and for all. Tracking auctions is a bitch when you're on
the road. You have to try to juggle it so you can be there for the closing
minute, which is where almost all auctions anybody cares the least bit
about are won or lost. I was tired of getting sniped by someone without a
job. (Or someone who sucked enough to actually use sniping software.
Loser.)

Little did I expect that I would only win it by $0.51. Ouch. I didn't
think anybody would be insane enough to come anywhere close to my final,
completely absurd bid.

Then of course one better looking came along the next day, and went for $75
less. <sigh>

Oh well. Like I said, it was a combination of factors. In this case, the
item in question is more like an old Stanley. Lots of old planes, in lots
of stages of disrepair, and the cheap ones are almost always in pretty
seriously crappy condition. This was something like finding a 1950s
vintage #5 in 98% condition. Tons of #5s listed every day, and not exactly
the cream of the crop, but how often do you find one this pristine? So I
paid waaaaaaaay too much.

Screw it. I enjoy playing my trumpet, and I'm glad I finally won the damn
thing after nearly three weeks of being sniped by people with no jobs.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

mac davis wrote:


>>Screw it. I enjoy playing my trumpet, and I'm glad I finally won the damn
>>thing after nearly three weeks of being sniped by people with no jobs.
>
> but used musical instruments are slightly different from mass produced
> tools or parts...

Not really that much, no. I think old (mass produced) instruments vs. old
(mass produced) planes is an apt comparison. Perhaps what you're getting
at is that used, old, out of production stuff is a different market from
buying something that's still on sale new. In that case, I agree
completely. People paying more than retail for items that are currently
and readily available is pretty nuts.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:53:22 GMT, Leuf <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:12:01 -0500, Silvan wrote:
>
>>I was tired of getting sniped by someone without a
>>job. (Or someone who sucked enough to actually use sniping software.
>>Loser.)
>
> Shame, because sniping software is perfect for the situation you were
> in. You can group a set of similar auctions together and it will
> snipe until it wins one of them and then stop. That way you can go
> after multiple items without worrying about ending up with more than
> one. Sniping, with or without software help, also protects you from
> shill bidding.

Sniping, with or without software help, is good only to pay less for something
than it's worth. It cheats sellers out of getting a fair price.

Look at it this way - in a "real" auction, the auctioneer doesn't say "I'll
listen to bids until (time)", he takes bids until nobody else is bidding.
Some online auction houses have an optional "15-minute rule" - if someone bids
within 15 minutes of the end of the auction, the auction end time is bumped out
an additional 15 minutes to give someone else a chance. More fair to the
seller, more fair to the guy honestly trying to buy it, and makes sniping software
ineffective.

That would inconvenience people trying to snipe and pay less for an item
than a fair auction would bring, but I'm OK with that.

Dave Hinz

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:57:12 GMT, TWS <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9 Nov 2004 20:06:52 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Sniping, with or without software help, is good only to pay less for something
>>than it's worth. It cheats sellers out of getting a fair price.

> I'm curious about your notion of 'fairness' in this respect. eBay in
> particular allows everybody to bid what they are willing to pay for
> the item.

Yes, but has a mechanism to inform a bidder that their offer has been
exceeded by someone else, yes?

> The fact that it ends at a fixed time makes it purely a
> matter of awarding the item to the person willing to pay the most
> without prolonging the auction to allow the 'fools to rush in' and
> avoids the 'auction fever' that develops when your 'highest' price has
> been outbid.

See, and there's the thing. If I'm _selling_ an item, I _want_ the
"auction fever" to kick in. If two guys want it bad enough, let 'em fight
it out fairly to see who wants to buy it. Don't sell it to the first
person to download scumware to cheat me out of my potential sales amount.

Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I want
to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it. I bid
what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires, someone snipes
it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance to make another offer.
It's an unfair advantage for those willing to resort to sniping software.

> I'm not sure I would participate in an auction that
> could go on as long as people were willing to bid. Too many ignorant
> people in the world, it would be a waste of time and even more
> unlikely to get a 'fair' price on an item you were buying.

See, but that's the thing. A millennium of precident has been set for
auctions to run that way. It is done that way in real auctions because
it works for all concerned. Given an option of selling something with
the 15-minute rule, or without the 15-minute rule, I'd prefer with.
Likewise, if I'm buying, I'd rather buy in an environment where sniping
is ineffective as a result of said 15-minute rule. You're always
free to stop bidding if you get tired or the numbers go too high,
after all.


> Certainly
> great for sellers though...

An auction should be about finding the buyer who is willing to pay the
most money for an item, not about who has the fastest web connection or
the most feature-rich sniping software. Works best for buyers, and for
sellers.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:16:53 GMT, TWS <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9 Nov 2004 22:20:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
><snip>
>
>>Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I want
>>to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it. I bid
>>what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires, someone snipes
>>it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance to make another offer.
>>It's an unfair advantage for those willing to resort to sniping software.
>>
> eBay has proxy bidding. This allows you to bid the maximum you are
> willing to pay so you don't have to have instantaneous access to the
> bidding status, eBay will do your up-bidding for you.

Exactly, and sniping bypasses all of that. The sniper gets to pick his
max as 50 cents more than yours, rather than their real max.

In a real auction, you've got the "going...going...gone" to make sure
everyone gets their bids in. Much as I like eBay, I'd like 'em a lot
more if they had the 15-minute option.

Leuf wrote:

> I would review the bidding history on the item, as something like that
> raises a red flag for me. Sometimes it just happens like that though,
> I had one a while back where someone outbid me by exactly 1 cent in
> one try.

I never thought about bid shilling until I heard the piece on the news the
other day. Indeed, it's a little worrisome isn't it? But they only made
one bid, and they couldn't have known how much my maximum bid was unless
they had cracked eBay, right? I think I just was 51 cents more desperate
to win the thing.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:52:24 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Answer: many people use sniping software or services that
>> automatically increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that
>> eBay is making. If the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping
>> bid, then the proxy will win. Otherwise the sniper will win.
>
> IOW, if you bid the maximum you are willing to pay for an item, a sniper
> cannot get that item for less. Doesn't seem like an issue.

Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then what
is it for?

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:57:59 -0600, Todd Fatheree <[email protected]> wrote:

> For whatever reason, many people do not bid the maximum amount they would
> pay. Don't ask me why this is.

Probably because most people don't know how much something is really worth
when they bid on it?

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:26:19 -0800, Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote:
> Unless you, as a buyer, get smart and actually make the proxy bid that
> is the maximum you are willing to pay. In that case no sniper can pick
> it off unless they are willing to pay more than your maximum. If you
> would bid more if you knew you were outbid in the last second then you
> didn't bid your maximum and have no room to complain.

So you admit that a sniper's goal is to pay as little for the item as
he can, right? As an occasional seller, I'd prefer that bidders
each have the chance to bid against each other fairly.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:32:14 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:

> The simplest and most productive thing to do is to
> go on to a snipe service site and register the max
> you are willing to bid plus how close to the end of
> the auction (usually in seconds) you wish to have
> your bid placed. If you end up with the item, fine.
> If you don't you don't. Unless you were betting on
> something that is extremely rare, the odds are that
> the same or similar item will pop up again, often
> within a week.

No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
second to buy it for as little as you can.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:58 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 19:47:38 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
>>bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
>>second to buy it for as little as you can.
>
> That's the simplest, but I believe that most people would
> define "productive" in this case as buying "for as little as
> you can." Everyone loves the capitalist system, `xcept
> when they're negatively affected.

In other words, for you, personal gain is more than "doing the right thing".
That explains your political bent, as well, but you'll pretend not to
understand why I'm saying that.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:35:54 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 16:04:45 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
>>limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
>>the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then what
>>is it for?
>
> Will you refer me to the software package or whatever that allows such a bid to
> be placed. All I've seen merely permit the "sniper" to specify a maximum, fixed
> amount.

That isn't logical, as it would have no difference compared to using proxy
bidding. It's all about timing, and unfair advantage, isn't it.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:39:35 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 19:01:14 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>So you admit that a sniper's goal is to pay as little for the item as
>>he can, right?
>
> I would assume that is EVERY bidder's goal. It is certainly my goal in any
> auction whether my bid is placed 5 seconds after the bidding opens or 5 seconds
> before the bidding closes.

Yes, and in a fair and equitable system, both bidders will have an equal chance
to do so. By chosing to snipe, you are depriving the other bidder of that
chance.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:45:02 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 19:47:38 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
>>bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
>>second to buy it for as little as you can.
>
> Just out of curiosity, Dave, what do you believe is the latest acceptable time
> to place a bid? 10 minutes before the bidding closes? 5 minutes? 1 minute?

You're intentionally missing the point, Tom, and you know it. Nice try
though.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:50:15 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> That isn't logical, as it would have no difference compared to using proxy
>> bidding. It's all about timing, and unfair advantage, isn't it.
>
> That is exactly how sniping works. It just submits your maximum bid at the
> last minute.

In other words, it bypasses the proxy bidding system, yes.

> There is no difference between it and proxy bidding

...(cue justification)

> except that your
> presence in the auction is not advertised. This reduces the bid fever, but
> does not change anything else about the auction.

There it is. Yeah, doesn't change anything else about it except that you
are working on more information than the other participants are given.

> I don't know why you think
> it is such an evil thing. There is no unfair advantage.

So, to paraphrase, "There is no unfair advantage, I'm just jumping in line
right at the end without giving you a chance to bid". Gotcha. Well, as long
as you can justify it to yourself, that's all that matters, isn't it now.

I'll repeat - I would pay a premium to list items with the 15-minute
option, and prefer to buy on auction sites that have that feature.

Dave Hinz

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:28:53 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:39:35 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>I would assume that is EVERY bidder's goal. It is certainly my goal in any
>>auction whether my bid is placed 5 seconds after the bidding opens or 5 seconds
>>before the bidding closes.
>
>
> Dave's problem is that he's not comfortable with the system
> so he wants it to operate by his rules.

Actually, Gregp, no, I'd prefer that people operate by the system that
is in place, rather than circumventing it.

You're probably one of those people who, when you see "left lane closed
ahead", waits to the very last moment before going over, aren't you.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:32:43 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 20:45:39 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>You're intentionally missing the point, Tom, and you know it. Nice try
>>though.
>
> I may be missing the point, but if so, I assure you that it is not intentional.
>
> I believe the basis of our misalignment is our differing beliefs relative to the
> nature of "sniped" bids. You seem to hold that there is some difference between
> a "snipe" and a normal proxy bid placed in the closing seconds of an auction. My
> contention is that there is absolutely no difference between the two.

If there is "absolutely no difference between the two", then sniping software
does not exist and will not be used. It does exist, and is used. QED.

> If, just for the sake of argument, you temporarily accept my contention of there
> being no difference, perhaps you will understand the reason for my asking about
> the latest time a bid could be ethically placed.

Given that there is a difference between proxy bidding and sniping, I would
contend that this is a null question.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:33:23 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004 20:18:42 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>In other words, for you, personal gain is more than
>>"doing the right thing".
>
> The usual neo crap: "Think my way or you're immoral."
> It really comes down to the fact that you're lazy.

Yawn. Tell me again how refusing to circumvent the bidding system
put in place by the bidding service is being "lazy"?

Actually, never mind. It seems that you and I have exactly _zero_ common
ground. You probably stain cherry.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:13:15 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> In other words, it bypasses the proxy bidding system, yes.
>
> No it doesn't. It submits a proxy bid in the last few minutes/seconds of the
> auction.
> How does this bypass the proxy bidding system?

It robs the other bidders of the ability to react to your sniped bid.
That is, after all, why you do it, isn't it?

>> There it is. Yeah, doesn't change anything else about it except that you
>> are working on more information than the other participants are given.

> No you are not. You know nothing about the other persons max bid or whether
> someone else is going to submit a bid. You know exactly as much as everyone
> else.

They don't know you're sitting there waiting to snipe.

>> So, to paraphrase, "There is no unfair advantage, I'm just jumping in line
>> right at the end without giving you a chance to bid". Gotcha. Well, as
> long
>> as you can justify it to yourself, that's all that matters, isn't it now.
>
> You always have a chance to bid. What makes you think you don't have a
> chance to bid?

Because you upped it at the last second.

> You can bid your max bid at the very beginning of the auction and if it is
> the high bid it wins. Simple as that. High bid always wins. In fact, the
> first high bid wins in the case of a tie, so theoretically, an earlier proxy
> bid has an advantage.

Red herring. We're talking about the close of an auction.

>> I'll repeat - I would pay a premium to list items with the 15-minute
>> option, and prefer to buy on auction sites that have that feature.
>>
> I think you fail to understand how proxy bidding works and how sniping
> works.

I understand it quite completely. I disagree with the ethics of those who
choose to exploit it.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:27 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> I understand it quite completely. I disagree with the ethics of those who
>> choose to exploit it.
>
> You don't seem to understand the basic principles of it. That is why I think
> you have a bad impression. Use your head.

See above. I understand it, and disrespect people who choose to exploit
that tactic. I further feel that people, like you, who go to great
lengths to justify how it's _not_ unfairly decreasing the seller's
price, while explaining that you do it to decrease the seller's price,
are working hard to justify that to themselves.

As interesting as this topic is(n't), I can't really see this going
anywhere. You'll keep sniping, and I'l keep disrespecting you for it.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:15:49 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> By and by, traffic crawled along to where I could clearly see the two cars off
> on the shoulder. The guy that he hit ... was MFSB #1.

Sweet. I bet they had a _nice_ chat with each other.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:25:10 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Actually, Gregp, no, I'd prefer that people operate by the system that
>> is in place, rather than circumventing it.
>
> They do. A maximum bid is placed and the highest maximum bid wins. If the
> highest maximum bid was placed 10 seconds after the item was listed, it
> wins.

The reason for the last-second bid is only to prevent someone else from
doing to you, exactly what you are doing to them. Do you at least agree
with that statement?

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:35:18 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The reason for the last-second bid is only to prevent someone else
>> from doing to you, exactly what you are doing to them. Do you at
>> least agree with that statement?

(major snip)

> If there was
> market demand for the fifteen minute extension, I'm sure we'd see it.

We do, just not on eBay.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:10:26 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> See above. I understand it, and disrespect people who choose to exploit
>> that tactic. I further feel that people, like you, who go to great
>> lengths to justify how it's _not_ unfairly decreasing the seller's
>> price, while explaining that you do it to decrease the seller's price,
>> are working hard to justify that to themselves.

> Sellers who don't like it can find a different venue. It is completely
> within the rules.

Yes, indeed, other online auctions can and have implemented a 15-minute
rule option, for just this reason.

> You are right though, it is going nowhere with you. I guess I'll just have
> to keep disrespecting you for having a mind that fails to comprehend this.

I do not fail to comprehend it, I do not _agree_ with you that it is
acceptable behavior in an auction. I disagree with it _because_ I understand
what it is, even if you tell yourself that it's just fine because it's
technically within the rules.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:59:00 -0800, Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote:
> Aside from the fact that it reduces the chances for people to
> get excited and stupid sniping has *no* substantive effect on the
> auction outcome.

Right, which is why nobody uses it.

On 9 Nov 2004 22:20:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>

>Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I want
>to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it. I bid
>what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires, someone snipes
>it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance to make another offer.
>It's an unfair advantage for those willing to resort to sniping software.
>
eBay has proxy bidding. This allows you to bid the maximum you are
willing to pay so you don't have to have instantaneous access to the
bidding status, eBay will do your up-bidding for you.

IMHO & IME the 'fairest' thing to do as a buyer is to bid your highest
price you are willing to pay at the very last instant. If there is
someone who's willing to pay more - fine, he gets it. If the next
closest bidder is 10 bucks less than my maximum then I get it for less
than my maximum - either way it's fair.

<snip>
>
>An auction should be about finding the buyer who is willing to pay the
>most money for an item, not about who has the fastest web connection or
>the most feature-rich sniping software. Works best for buyers, and for
>sellers.
>
If you use proxy bidding there is very little data sent to place a bid
so fast Internet connections have only a slight advantage over dial
up. If you are a 'bid, watch, bid, watch' kind of bidder then you'll
probably lose out either way because you'll always be outbid by the
sniper if there is one.

TWS

On 10 Nov 2004 21:30:13 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>You're probably one of those people who, when you see "left lane closed
>ahead", waits to the very last moment before going over, aren't you.

Gawd, don't you just hate those bozo's. I always hope they get all the way up to
the 'crunch point' and nobody lets 'em in. But it seems there is always someone
up near the head of the line that's over endowed with a sense of courtesy and
neighborly love.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:26:19 -0800, Tim Douglass
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Always put you initial bid in at the absolute maximum you are willing
>to pay, then walk away and don't look again until after the auction
>has closed. If you get it - great, If not, something similar will be
>along soon enough.

The simplest and most productive thing to do is to
go on to a snipe service site and register the max
you are willing to bid plus how close to the end of
the auction (usually in seconds) you wish to have
your bid placed. If you end up with the item, fine.
If you don't you don't. Unless you were betting on
something that is extremely rare, the odds are that
the same or similar item will pop up again, often
within a week.

Greetings and salutations...
As regards bidding on Ebay...there is no sanity or
reason to it...nor logic. just go with the flow.

On 10 Nov 2004 15:32:52 -0800, [email protected] (Charles Lerner)
wrote:

*snip*
>
>I've tried to figure out e-bay and the way you say you bid makes
>sense; however, why do you enter your one bid "very late in the
>auction"? Is that to reduce the time for people to outbid simply on a
>competitive basis?
>
>Charles Lerner

Now, I have been a sniper for a long time on Ebay, and,
the reason I do it is that I have come to the conclusion that
there is a fairly large group of people who search for my user
ID constantly, and, immediately bid anything I am going for
well up over retail when they find it. It has happened JUST
often enough to convince me of this fact. It is almost as
if when folks see me bidding on something a little voice in
their head says "This has GOT to be a great bargain, no matter
WHAT it costs!!!! SO BUY IT!".
So...now...I fire off a bid in the last 20 seconds
or so for the max I am willing to pay for the item. As
others have mentioned, if I get it, great. If not, I know
that there will be another one coming down the pike pretty
soon.
As for the complaints about the seller not getting
"enough" for the item...if this is a problem, just put a reserve
on it and stick to it. Of course, that might well mean that
the seller gets to post (and pay ebay) several times for the
auctioned item.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> writes:

>No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
>bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
>second to buy it for as little as you can.

A big reason for sniping services is because bidders often get a win at
all costs mentality and bid more than they originally planned just to
"win" the item.

If I put in a bid with a few seconds left, a bidder manually bidding will
have a hard time putting in a higher bid in time.

If someone bids their max up front and it is higher than my max, then they
get the item and that is fine.

Brian Elfert

On 10 Nov 2004 19:01:14 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:26:19 -0800, Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Unless you, as a buyer, get smart and actually make the proxy bid that
>> is the maximum you are willing to pay. In that case no sniper can pick
>> it off unless they are willing to pay more than your maximum. If you
>> would bid more if you knew you were outbid in the last second then you
>> didn't bid your maximum and have no room to complain.
>
>So you admit that a sniper's goal is to pay as little for the item as
>he can, right? As an occasional seller, I'd prefer that bidders
>each have the chance to bid against each other fairly.

Every buyer's goal is to pay as little as they can. If the sniper pays
more than your *maximum* then the seller got more than they would have
without the sniper, so the sniper actually made the seller *more*
money. Aside from the fact that it reduces the chances for people to
get excited and stupid sniping has *no* substantive effect on the
auction outcome.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On 10 Nov 2004 16:04:45 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
>limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
>the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then what
>is it for?

Dave,

Will you refer me to the software package or whatever that allows such a bid to
be placed. All I've seen merely permit the "sniper" to specify a maximum, fixed
amount.

I would never use one that works as you describe. It would be far too dangerous
for me to even consider using.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

It is not just eBay; it is all auctions. I have seen 10 year old generators
go for over retail at traditional auctions, and the buyers don't even know
if they start.

eBay is particularly bad because it is so big.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:46:58 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
>> on their website. Are people that stupid
>
>Yes, they are that stupid. I collect fountain pens. I've seen brand new
>retail $30 pens go for $50 on eBay. I've seen antique pens worth $100 go
>for $20. Probably because they are old.
>
>There are bargains, but you have to know what things are worth and know when
>to stop bidding.
>
The worst is consumer electronics, I've given up looking for a bargain
in those categories. Too many ignorant people with auction fever.

TWS
http://tomstudwell.com/allprojects.htm

John Thomas <[email protected]> wrote:

> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:gzSkd.498$fc.362@trnddc09:
>
>> When I moved to Oregon in 1970 I5 was being repaired. I5 has been
>> under continuous "repair" for 34 years now, and perhaps longer. Same
>> thing with Portland Airport.
>>
>
> Yeah, we moved here in 1970, also. I feel your pain. I think Sunset,
> and 217 have been under construction for just as long, in one place or
> the other. Didn't they actually get the airport "complete" for about 6
> months or so ;-0 ?

I think it was 6 Weeks. But I don't fly much now, so it could have been
longer. I know they are still messing with it because I was there last
month. FWIW, most other airports seem to be in the same state.

>
> I used to maintain that it was illegal to know how to build a road
> here. There's been pretty much zero planning for most of the urban
> growth, and what planning there was (Metro) pretty much pissed
> everybody off anyway. (You can't get there from here, you have to go
> someplace else first).

What really gripes me about the roads is this habit of resurfacing, THEN
doing the sewer or optic fiber about two months later. One of the streets
bordering my property just got new sewer, new sidewalks and resurfaced. I
can't wait to see what they'll come up with to dig it up again. :o)

>
> But despite all that, don't think I'd want to live anyplace else.
> SWMBO and I are fortunate enough to have 5 acres of forest; I'll live
> with the hassle of getting around.

You'd have to pry me outa here! And bring a real big pry bar.

>
> Regards,
>
> JT
>

On 10 Nov 2004 19:47:38 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
>bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
>second to buy it for as little as you can.

Just out of curiosity, Dave, what do you believe is the latest acceptable time
to place a bid? 10 minutes before the bidding closes? 5 minutes? 1 minute?


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On 9 Nov 2004 22:20:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I want
>to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it. I bid
>what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires, someone snipes
>it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance to make another offer.
>It's an unfair advantage for those willing to resort to sniping software.

Unless you, as a buyer, get smart and actually make the proxy bid that
is the maximum you are willing to pay. In that case no sniper can pick
it off unless they are willing to pay more than your maximum. If you
would bid more if you knew you were outbid in the last second then you
didn't bid your maximum and have no room to complain.

Always put you initial bid in at the absolute maximum you are willing
to pay, then walk away and don't look again until after the auction
has closed. If you get it - great, If not, something similar will be
along soon enough.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uYVjd.153335$nl.135299@pd7tw3no...
> I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for
lie
> nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them
for
> on their website. Are people that stupid
>

Yes. Yes they are. Never, EVER underestimate the amount of stupidity out
there. I recently sold a set of saddlebags for my motorcycle because they
were smaller than I wanted, and ended up selling them for $40... YES! FORTY
DOLLARS... more than I had bought them for. On ebay. When I listed mine they
were one of about 10 sets of IDENTICAL saddlebags and the ABSOLUTE BEST I
expected to do on them was break even and barely at that.

Here endeth the lesson on human stupidity. And people wonder why the world's
in the state it is.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:12:01 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> There are bargains, but you have to know what things are worth and know
>> when to stop bidding.
>
>Or sometimes you just want to WIN the fscking auction and get on with your
>life. I paid grossly too much for a trumpet because I was shopping for
>that kind of trumpet, this one was in much better than average condition,
>and I wanted to WIN IT ALREADY, so I could stop having to juggle the
>watchlist. I got sniped, sniped again, sniped a third time, sniped a
>fourth time... All of this took me over two weeks, because I didn't want
>to have two bids out at the same time. I don't bid more than I can afford.
>
>I decided to jack up the price on the last one so ridiculously high that I
>would win it once and for all. Tracking auctions is a bitch when you're on
>the road. You have to try to juggle it so you can be there for the closing
>minute, which is where almost all auctions anybody cares the least bit
>about are won or lost. I was tired of getting sniped by someone without a
>job. (Or someone who sucked enough to actually use sniping software.
>Loser.)
>
>Little did I expect that I would only win it by $0.51. Ouch. I didn't
>think anybody would be insane enough to come anywhere close to my final,
>completely absurd bid.
>
>Then of course one better looking came along the next day, and went for $75
>less. <sigh>
>
>Oh well. Like I said, it was a combination of factors. In this case, the
>item in question is more like an old Stanley. Lots of old planes, in lots
>of stages of disrepair, and the cheap ones are almost always in pretty
>seriously crappy condition. This was something like finding a 1950s
>vintage #5 in 98% condition. Tons of #5s listed every day, and not exactly
>the cream of the crop, but how often do you find one this pristine? So I
>paid waaaaaaaay too much.
>
>Screw it. I enjoy playing my trumpet, and I'm glad I finally won the damn
>thing after nearly three weeks of being sniped by people with no jobs.

but used musical instruments are slightly different from mass produced
tools or parts...

On 9 Nov 2004 20:06:52 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:


>Sniping, with or without software help, is good only to pay less for something
>than it's worth. It cheats sellers out of getting a fair price.

Even though it's been a while I don't think we need another thread
about this. I was just trying to inform OP about what's possible with
the software not debate the morality of sniping. With some of the
software you can set the time before the end of the auction the bid is
placed, though I'm not sure if you can set it back further than a
minute or so with any of them. You might, and then be able to take
advantage of the management of multiple auctions in a way that doesn't
bother your conscience.

However I find it humorous that in a thread about how ridiculous the
prices everything on ebay is selling for there is someone complaining
about the sellers getting ripped off. The system is imperfect, but it
still greatly favors the seller.


-Leuf

mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in message .
> >
> for sure on the knowing when to stop!
> I bid on a lot of Shopsmith stuff on Ebay, so when something comes up,
> I go to the SS web site and price it...
> Obviously, most folks don't, because I see a lot of used stuff going
> for more than the new price.. bidding fever? caught up in the moment??
> dunno...

I have been bidding on a few things for my brother who recently bought
a used Shopsmith 500. One item, the front table extension, sells
regularly from Shopsmith at $49.99, I have seen several go by at from
$50 to $80 in the last few weeks. Others have gone by at around $35 to
$40, which is still too much (esp. given that they are on sale now at
shopsmith at $42.50).

Dave Hall

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:12:01 -0500, Silvan wrote:


>I decided to jack up the price on the last one so ridiculously high that I
>would win it once and for all. Tracking auctions is a bitch when you're on
>the road. You have to try to juggle it so you can be there for the closing
>minute, which is where almost all auctions anybody cares the least bit
>about are won or lost. I was tired of getting sniped by someone without a
>job. (Or someone who sucked enough to actually use sniping software.
>Loser.)

Shame, because sniping software is perfect for the situation you were
in. You can group a set of similar auctions together and it will
snipe until it wins one of them and then stop. That way you can go
after multiple items without worrying about ending up with more than
one. Sniping, with or without software help, also protects you from
shill bidding.

>Little did I expect that I would only win it by $0.51. Ouch. I didn't
>think anybody would be insane enough to come anywhere close to my final,
>completely absurd bid.

I would review the bidding history on the item, as something like that
raises a red flag for me. Sometimes it just happens like that though,
I had one a while back where someone outbid me by exactly 1 cent in
one try.


-Leuf

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On 10 Nov 2004 21:30:13 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>You're probably one of those people who, when you see "left lane closed
>>ahead", waits to the very last moment before going over, aren't you.
>
>Gawd, don't you just hate those bozo's. I always hope they get all the way up
> to
>the 'crunch point' and nobody lets 'em in. But it seems there is always someone
>up near the head of the line that's over endowed with a sense of courtesy and
>neighborly love.

I watched *two* of those guys, in quick succession, in a construction zone a
few years ago. Guy in a pickup, pulling a boat trailer, is in the left lane,
sees the "closed ahead" sign 300 yards down the road, slows down, flips on his
turn signal, and starts looking for a place to move over. He's being a Good
Citizen. But the Me-First Selfish Bastard (MFSB) in the Beemer behind him
can't wait. Honking his horn, flashing his lights, pounding the steering wheel
(really!), he passes on the shoulder, roars on down the road, and cuts in to
the right lane maybe 50 yards before the pylons. Not _ten_seconds_ later, here
comes MFSB #2, flying along in the left lane, passing everything in sight. A
tractor-trailer driver, having observed MFSB #1, moves over a bit to partially
block the left lane. MFSB #2 moves left, tractor-trailer moves farther left,
eventually blocks the entire lane. MFSB #2 passes him _in_the_median_,
fishtailing all over the place in the grass, fights his way back onto the
road, passes everything he can before getting to the pylons, cuts over into
the right lane _and_runs_into_another_car_.

By and by, traffic crawled along to where I could clearly see the two cars off
on the shoulder. The guy that he hit ... was MFSB #1.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article <[email protected]>, "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It was my firm opinion even before I earned a
>living as an OTR driver, that almost ALL construction backups could be
>eliminated or at worst reduced to a minimum if all the MFSB's would pay
>attention & do like the "Good Citizen" by blending & merging as soon as they
>know which lane will be closed.

My BIL said that when he was stationed at Pax River, one summer there was a
construction zone just outside the base that forced two lanes of traffic
leaving the base to funnel down to one -- and everyone, without being
instructed, with nobody directing traffic, simply took turns: left lane, right
lane, left, right, left, right... and traffic flowed as smoothly as could be.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Wes Stewart wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:29:46 GMT, "Mat A" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> |I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
> |nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
> |on their website. Are people that stupid
>
> Maybe this is why:
>
> http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5072949.html
>


Hot Damn!

I've always known shilling was illegal, glad to see something being done about it.

OTOH, if someone bids "too much", well, is it really too much? Nobodies putting
a gun to their head and making them bid. If the item isn't worth what their
bidding then why are they bidding?

Maybe it's that I've been going to real auctions for twenty years that I think
people ought to take responsibility for their bidding, and that if one gets
caught in a frenzy, well, isn't that too bad.

I wish someone would frenzy on MY auctions . :(

--

Mark

N.E. Ohio

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice
there is.

Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

"Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
> on their website. Are people that stupid

Yes, they are that stupid. I collect fountain pens. I've seen brand new
retail $30 pens go for $50 on eBay. I've seen antique pens worth $100 go
for $20. Probably because they are old.

There are bargains, but you have to know what things are worth and know when
to stop bidding.

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I
> want to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it.
> I bid what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires,
> someone snipes it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance
> to make another offer. It's an unfair advantage for those willing to
> resort to sniping software.
>
>

You have an option: bid the maximum you are willing to pay and wait
until the 'auction' is finished. If someone 'snipes' you for a dime,
then you were not willing to pay X+10 cents.

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:25:10 GMT, Lobby Dosser
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, Gregp, no, I'd prefer that people operate by the system
>>> that is in place, rather than circumventing it.
>>
>> They do. A maximum bid is placed and the highest maximum bid wins. If
>> the highest maximum bid was placed 10 seconds after the item was
>> listed, it wins.
>
> The reason for the last-second bid is only to prevent someone else
> from doing to you, exactly what you are doing to them. Do you at
> least agree with that statement?
>

Yes. But that is the way the system works. You either work with it, or
not. Your choice.

FWIW, I had a successful bid on an item last night. I placed my maximum
bid two days prior - mine was the starting bid - and was only bid up
$3.00 beyond the starting bid and still under my maximum. I always
establish the maximum I'm willing to pay for an item, subtract the
shipping cost - many sellers use shipping to jack the price - then use
the result as my maximum bid. If the bidding goes beyond my maximum, I
walk away. I started doing this after once getting into an emotional
bidding session. If they changed the rules to the fifteen minute no bid
extension you have suggested, I'd still bid the same way. If there was
market demand for the fifteen minute extension, I'm sure we'd see it.

LD

"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:e5hkd.1508$w.1118@trnddc02...
>> Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and
>> someone bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum
>> bid, what does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you,
>> then notify the sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is
>> likely too late for him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding
>> your maximum means that you will never be outbid by a bid under your
>> maximum.
>
> Answer: many people use sniping software or services that
> automatically increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that
> eBay is making. If the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping
> bid, then the proxy will win. Otherwise the sniper will win.

IOW, if you bid the maximum you are willing to pay for an item, a sniper
cannot get that item for less. Doesn't seem like an issue.

>
> todd
>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:uYVjd.153335$nl.135299@pd7tw3no...
> >I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
> > nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them
> > for
> > on their website. Are people that stupid
>
> It's quite common to find telescopes going for more than retail on eBay. I'm
> an amateur astronomer and keep watch on the stuff. Aside from the sheer junk
> being offered--want a 525-power 2" paper weight?-- a Chinese company sells
> its not-quite-sheer junk on eBay and AFAIK uses ONLY eBay to market. I'm
> also told that a number of retailers and OEMs are bidding or selling under
> false names.
> OTOH, I just bought a used tail light assembly (don't ask) for 1/5 the price
> of new.

Ok, now you've done it. You tell me to "don't ask", so I gotta ask...

Which vehicle, and were you driving?

Rick

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:32:43 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > On 10 Nov 2004 20:45:39 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>You're intentionally missing the point, Tom, and you know it. Nice try
> >>though.
> >
> > I may be missing the point, but if so, I assure you that it is not
intentional.
> >
> > I believe the basis of our misalignment is our differing beliefs
relative to the
> > nature of "sniped" bids. You seem to hold that there is some difference
between
> > a "snipe" and a normal proxy bid placed in the closing seconds of an
auction. My
> > contention is that there is absolutely no difference between the two.
>
> If there is "absolutely no difference between the two", then sniping
software
> does not exist and will not be used. It does exist, and is used. QED.

Curious proof, definitely not very rigorous.
Suppose that Tom is correct and sniping software is simply placing a proxy
bid just before the auction ends. How is that proxy bid different is one a
person places just before the auction ends? The bid itself is not different.
However, that doesn't mean that the sniping software isn't useful. Some of
the potential benefits for using the sniping software could be:
(1) The person doesn't need to be online near the close of the auction.
(2) Automate bidding on multiple auctions, especially if they have
similar ending times.
(3) Suppose that there are multiple auctions for the same item of
interest, but you only want to get (or can afford one). Ideally, you want
to bid on one auction at a time (if you win, you stop; if you lose, you move
onto the next auction). Sniping software could automate this process.

It seems to be that sniping software could be useful if it automates placing
normal proxy bids, so it could exist and could be used even if its bids are
no different from the normal proxy bids.

That said, I agree that sniping (by software or manually placing last minute
bids) will be used to try to buy at a lower price by avoiding an emotional
bidding war. I have never used sniping software so I'm not sure if it does
anything more "devious" than what Tom contends (such as bidding just XX
amount over the highest bid), but I can see how it would be useful if it
simply automated the normal proxy bidding.

BadgerDog

>
> > If, just for the sake of argument, you temporarily accept my contention
of there
> > being no difference, perhaps you will understand the reason for my
asking about
> > the latest time a bid could be ethically placed.
>
> Given that there is a difference between proxy bidding and sniping, I
would
> contend that this is a null question.
>

"Norman D. Crow" wrote in message

> Pet peeve # 40x, they all want to go nose to tail like a pachyderm parade.
> Solution: back off & leave a little *buffer* zone, that way when the
traffic
> in front starts their accordion act, you don't have to stop & start
sixteen
> dozen times. You may just be able to slow down a little, then ease back
into
> the throttle again and keep moving. Not a sure-fire solution, but it does
> help.

Won't work here in Houston because the #1 rule of freeway driving,
noticeably invoked by the first big city easterner's who started showing up
in the mid 60's, is that said "buffer zone" must be filled immediately from
an adjacent, and momentarily slower, lane ... preferably at the last second,
and by a vehicle too large to fit.

Prior to that, when driving in Houston you could actually leave a safe
distance between you and the car in front of you and be reasonably sure that
no damn fool would pull into it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:52:24 GMT, Lobby Dosser
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Answer: many people use sniping software or services that
>>> automatically increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that
>>> eBay is making. If the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping
>>> bid, then the proxy will win. Otherwise the sniper will win.
>>
>> IOW, if you bid the maximum you are willing to pay for an item, a sniper
>> cannot get that item for less. Doesn't seem like an issue.
>
> Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
> limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
> the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then
> what
> is it for?
>

In a "real" auction, the auctioneer usually does not drop the hammer until
he/she receives the last bid. As long as there are bidders, the bidding
continues. Not so with Ebay; when the clock runs out, its ended. I think
it would be greatly beneficial to the sellers if Ebay would allow the
bidding continue after the end of the auction as long as bids continue to be
received, i.e. end the auction when no more bids are received in a 15 second
period. That allows the "Johnny come lately" to out bid the sniper if he so
chooses.

Gary

"Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uYVjd.153335$nl.135299@pd7tw3no...
>I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
> nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them
> for
> on their website. Are people that stupid

It's quite common to find telescopes going for more than retail on eBay. I'm
an amateur astronomer and keep watch on the stuff. Aside from the sheer junk
being offered--want a 525-power 2" paper weight?-- a Chinese company sells
its not-quite-sheer junk on eBay and AFAIK uses ONLY eBay to market. I'm
also told that a number of retailers and OEMs are bidding or selling under
false names.
OTOH, I just bought a used tail light assembly (don't ask) for 1/5 the price
of new.

Bob

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Prior to that, when driving in Houston you could actually leave a safe
> distance between you and the car in front of you and be reasonably
> sure that no damn fool would pull into it.
>

Houston has no monopoly on idiots. Same thing here in Oregon. No one knows
how to freaking *merge*. Coupled with continuous highway construction, we
avoid the freeways unless it's impossible to do so.

Regards,
JT

Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
news:gzSkd.498$fc.362@trnddc09:

> When I moved to Oregon in 1970 I5 was being repaired. I5 has been
> under continuous "repair" for 34 years now, and perhaps longer. Same
> thing with Portland Airport.
>

Yeah, we moved here in 1970, also. I feel your pain. I think Sunset, and
217 have been under construction for just as long, in one place or the
other. Didn't they actually get the airport "complete" for about 6
months or so ;-0 ?

I used to maintain that it was illegal to know how to build a road here.
There's been pretty much zero planning for most of the urban growth, and
what planning there was (Metro) pretty much pissed everybody off anyway.
(You can't get there from here, you have to go someplace else first).

But despite all that, don't think I'd want to live anyplace else. SWMBO
and I are fortunate enough to have 5 acres of forest; I'll live with the
hassle of getting around.

Regards,

JT

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e5hkd.1508$w.1118@trnddc02...
> Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and someone
> bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum bid, what
> does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you, then notify the
> sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is likely too late for
> him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding your maximum means that
> you will never be outbid by a bid under your maximum.

Answer: many people use sniping software or services that automatically
increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that eBay is making. If
the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping bid, then the proxy will win.
Otherwise the sniper will win.

todd

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:28:53 -0500, GregP <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:39:35 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I would assume that is EVERY bidder's goal. It is certainly my goal
>>>in any auction whether my bid is placed 5 seconds after the bidding
>>>opens or 5 seconds before the bidding closes.
>>
>>
>> Dave's problem is that he's not comfortable with the system
>> so he wants it to operate by his rules.
>
> Actually, Gregp, no, I'd prefer that people operate by the system that
> is in place, rather than circumventing it.

They do. A maximum bid is placed and the highest maximum bid wins. If the
highest maximum bid was placed 10 seconds after the item was listed, it
wins.

On 9 Nov 2004 20:06:52 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Sniping, with or without software help, is good only to pay less for something
>than it's worth. It cheats sellers out of getting a fair price.
>
>Look at it this way - in a "real" auction, the auctioneer doesn't say "I'll
>listen to bids until (time)", he takes bids until nobody else is bidding.
>Some online auction houses have an optional "15-minute rule" - if someone bids
>within 15 minutes of the end of the auction, the auction end time is bumped out
>an additional 15 minutes to give someone else a chance. More fair to the
>seller, more fair to the guy honestly trying to buy it, and makes sniping software
>ineffective.
>
>That would inconvenience people trying to snipe and pay less for an item
>than a fair auction would bring, but I'm OK with that.
>
>Dave Hinz
I'm curious about your notion of 'fairness' in this respect. eBay in
particular allows everybody to bid what they are willing to pay for
the item. The fact that it ends at a fixed time makes it purely a
matter of awarding the item to the person willing to pay the most
without prolonging the auction to allow the 'fools to rush in' and
avoids the 'auction fever' that develops when your 'highest' price has
been outbid. I'm not sure I would participate in an auction that
could go on as long as people were willing to bid. Too many ignorant
people in the world, it would be a waste of time and even more
unlikely to get a 'fair' price on an item you were buying. Certainly
great for sellers though...

TWS

In article <[email protected]>, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> How do you check to see what items somebody is bidding on?
>
>http://ebay.com
>click "advanced search"
>http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/AdvSearch?
>on the left nav bar click "items by bidder"

I'll be darned. Never knew that was there. Thanks!

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On 11 Nov 2004 22:53:28 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:59:00 -0800, Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Aside from the fact that it reduces the chances for people to
>> get excited and stupid sniping has *no* substantive effect on the
>> auction outcome.
>
>Right, which is why nobody uses it.

People do a lot of stuff that doesn't benefit them the way they think
it does. Sniping is only an issue because people fail to understand
that e-bay is not a *live* auction, it is a *proxy* auction. The only
truly effective way to use e-bay as a buyer is to decide on your
maximum and bid that amount - early or late. I've played the live
auction game on the Internet and it is pathetic and annoying, as is
the 15 minute rule (or 5 min as it was on the site I was on). If all
the people bidding understood what they were doing the seller would
always get the absolute highest price anyone was willing to pay for
that item and no buyer would ever pay more than they were willing to
pay.

Just as a quasi-humorous aside, with a slight ww content - a year or
so ago I was trying to buy a Senco SN-40 finish nailer via e-bay. The
one that I finally got I had put in a bid that was a bit higher than I
really wanted to pay, but my research on closed auctions showed that
it was a good ballpark amount. After I "won" the auction I checked the
bid list, since the price had climbed a lot after I had checked it
with an hour or so to go. There were over 130 bids from the same guy
posted inside of about 5 minutes at the end of the auction. I'm not
sure if he was cut off by the end of the auction or if he just reached
his maximum, but it was pretty funny - and still about $15 below my
maximum.

Oh, and I love the nailer.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:57:12 GMT, TWS <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 9 Nov 2004 20:06:52 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Sniping, with or without software help, is good only to pay less for
something
> >>than it's worth. It cheats sellers out of getting a fair price.
>
> > I'm curious about your notion of 'fairness' in this respect. eBay in
> > particular allows everybody to bid what they are willing to pay for
> > the item.
>
> Yes, but has a mechanism to inform a bidder that their offer has been
> exceeded by someone else, yes?
>
> > The fact that it ends at a fixed time makes it purely a
> > matter of awarding the item to the person willing to pay the most
> > without prolonging the auction to allow the 'fools to rush in' and
> > avoids the 'auction fever' that develops when your 'highest' price has
> > been outbid.
>
> See, and there's the thing. If I'm _selling_ an item, I _want_ the
> "auction fever" to kick in. If two guys want it bad enough, let 'em fight
> it out fairly to see who wants to buy it. Don't sell it to the first
> person to download scumware to cheat me out of my potential sales amount.
>
> Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I want
> to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it. I bid
> what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires, someone snipes
> it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a chance to make another
offer.
> It's an unfair advantage for those willing to resort to sniping software.
>
> > I'm not sure I would participate in an auction that
> > could go on as long as people were willing to bid. Too many ignorant
> > people in the world, it would be a waste of time and even more
> > unlikely to get a 'fair' price on an item you were buying.
>
> See, but that's the thing. A millennium of precident has been set for
> auctions to run that way. It is done that way in real auctions because
> it works for all concerned. Given an option of selling something with
> the 15-minute rule, or without the 15-minute rule, I'd prefer with.
> Likewise, if I'm buying, I'd rather buy in an environment where sniping
> is ineffective as a result of said 15-minute rule. You're always
> free to stop bidding if you get tired or the numbers go too high,
> after all.
>
>
> > Certainly
> > great for sellers though...
>
> An auction should be about finding the buyer who is willing to pay the
> most money for an item, not about who has the fastest web connection or
> the most feature-rich sniping software. Works best for buyers, and for
> sellers.

Sealed bid auctions have been around for quite a long time. They are no
different from the model used by ebay. Ebay picked this model because it
offers advantages to buyers and sellers, especially buyers who are scattered
around the world in different timezones and who have better things to do
than last minute bidding on auctions. (and what if they are interested in
two things closing at the same time? Judging by the number of users it seems
to work out well for most people.

The millennium of precedent was set by auction houses which take a cut of
the fees. They have a vested interest in the highest price. Ebay makes up
for it in volume and by attracting bidders from around the world.

Sniping hurts no one. You always have the option to bid what you want at
anytime. If you don't win it is because you don't want to pay more than the
other guy.

-J

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:35:54 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > On 10 Nov 2004 16:04:45 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
> >>limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
> >>the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then
what
> >>is it for?
> >
> > Will you refer me to the software package or whatever that allows such a
bid to
> > be placed. All I've seen merely permit the "sniper" to specify a
maximum, fixed
> > amount.
>
> That isn't logical, as it would have no difference compared to using proxy
> bidding. It's all about timing, and unfair advantage, isn't it.

That is exactly how sniping works. It just submits your maximum bid at the
last minute.
There is no difference between it and proxy bidding except that your
presence in the auction is not advertised. This reduces the bid fever, but
does not change anything else about the auction. I don't know why you think
it is such an evil thing. There is no unfair advantage.

-J

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:50:15 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> That isn't logical, as it would have no difference compared to using
proxy
> >> bidding. It's all about timing, and unfair advantage, isn't it.
> >
> > That is exactly how sniping works. It just submits your maximum bid at
the
> > last minute.
>
> In other words, it bypasses the proxy bidding system, yes.

No it doesn't. It submits a proxy bid in the last few minutes/seconds of the
auction.
How does this bypass the proxy bidding system?

> > There is no difference between it and proxy bidding
>
> ...(cue justification)
>
> > except that your
> > presence in the auction is not advertised. This reduces the bid fever,
but
> > does not change anything else about the auction.
>
> There it is. Yeah, doesn't change anything else about it except that you
> are working on more information than the other participants are given.

No you are not. You know nothing about the other persons max bid or whether
someone else is going to submit a bid. You know exactly as much as everyone
else.


> > I don't know why you think
> > it is such an evil thing. There is no unfair advantage.
>
> So, to paraphrase, "There is no unfair advantage, I'm just jumping in line
> right at the end without giving you a chance to bid". Gotcha. Well, as
long
> as you can justify it to yourself, that's all that matters, isn't it now.

You always have a chance to bid. What makes you think you don't have a
chance to bid?
You can bid your max bid at the very beginning of the auction and if it is
the high bid it wins. Simple as that. High bid always wins. In fact, the
first high bid wins in the case of a tie, so theoretically, an earlier proxy
bid has an advantage.

> I'll repeat - I would pay a premium to list items with the 15-minute
> option, and prefer to buy on auction sites that have that feature.
>
> Dave Hinz

I think you fail to understand how proxy bidding works and how sniping
works.

-Jack

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:32:43 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > On 10 Nov 2004 20:45:39 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>You're intentionally missing the point, Tom, and you know it. Nice try
> >>though.
> >
> > I may be missing the point, but if so, I assure you that it is not
intentional.
> >
> > I believe the basis of our misalignment is our differing beliefs
relative to the
> > nature of "sniped" bids. You seem to hold that there is some difference
between
> > a "snipe" and a normal proxy bid placed in the closing seconds of an
auction. My
> > contention is that there is absolutely no difference between the two.
>
> If there is "absolutely no difference between the two", then sniping
software
> does not exist and will not be used. It does exist, and is used. QED.

The difference is not what you think. One way advertises your presence. The
other doesn't. The bidding mechanism is the same. The reason sniping is
attractive is because some bidders get emotionally invested in their bids
and increase them beyond what they would rationally pay if they see that
someone else is bidding on it. Some folks are just competitive by nature and
that is why you see people paying more than market price. Sniping minimizes
this. Sniping also offers convenience.

> > If, just for the sake of argument, you temporarily accept my contention
of there
> > being no difference, perhaps you will understand the reason for my
asking about
> > the latest time a bid could be ethically placed.
>
> Given that there is a difference between proxy bidding and sniping, I
would
> contend that this is a null question.

So, what is the difference in your opinion, since you are claiming there is
a difference?

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:13:15 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> >> In other words, it bypasses the proxy bidding system, yes.
> >
> > No it doesn't. It submits a proxy bid in the last few minutes/seconds of
the
> > auction.
> > How does this bypass the proxy bidding system?
>
> It robs the other bidders of the ability to react to your sniped bid.
> That is, after all, why you do it, isn't it?
>
> >> There it is. Yeah, doesn't change anything else about it except that
you
> >> are working on more information than the other participants are given.
>
> > No you are not. You know nothing about the other persons max bid or
whether
> > someone else is going to submit a bid. You know exactly as much as
everyone
> > else.
>
> They don't know you're sitting there waiting to snipe.

You don't know they are sitting there waiting to bid or snipe. Right?

> >> So, to paraphrase, "There is no unfair advantage, I'm just jumping in
line
> >> right at the end without giving you a chance to bid". Gotcha. Well,
as
> > long
> >> as you can justify it to yourself, that's all that matters, isn't it
now.
> >
> > You always have a chance to bid. What makes you think you don't have a
> > chance to bid?
>
> Because you upped it at the last second.

As long as it is less than or equal to your max then you win. If it is more,
then you lose.
How much simpler can this be? High bidder always wins. Bid what you want. If
you win you win. If not, then don't blame the other fool.

Winning isn't everything. At least twice I was high bidder, but the real
winners were the people who didn't win.


> > You can bid your max bid at the very beginning of the auction and if it
is
> > the high bid it wins. Simple as that. High bid always wins. In fact, the
> > first high bid wins in the case of a tie, so theoretically, an earlier
proxy
> > bid has an advantage.
>
> Red herring. We're talking about the close of an auction.

Start or finish. It only matters what the highest bid is at any time. Don't
you understand this?

> >> I'll repeat - I would pay a premium to list items with the 15-minute
> >> option, and prefer to buy on auction sites that have that feature.
> >>
> > I think you fail to understand how proxy bidding works and how sniping
> > works.
>
> I understand it quite completely. I disagree with the ethics of those who
> choose to exploit it.

You don't seem to understand the basic principles of it. That is why I think
you have a bad impression. Use your head.

-J

"Charles Lerner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser
<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and
someone
> > >bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum bid, what
> > >does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you, then notify
the
> > >sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is likely too late for
> > >him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding your maximum means that
> > >you will never be outbid by a bid under your maximum.
> > >
> > You are correct. A "sniper" bid is no different than any other bid. It
is only a
> > "snipe" when it is placed near the end of the bidding period. As far as
the
> > operation within eBay is concerned, it doesn't matter whether the bid is
placed
> > manually or using some "clock-watcher" software program.
> >
> > eBay enters (and increases to the proxy maximum) the "snipe" bid exactly
the
> > same way as any other proxy bid is entered (and increased). If you lose
an eBay
> > auction to a "sniper", it is simply because you either didn't enter the
true
> > maximum amount you were willing to pay, or the later bidder was willing
to pay
> > more.
> >
> > In the absence of unusual circumstances, I will typically enter only one
bid in
> > an eBay auction. But that bid will be for an amount which I am not
willing to
> > exceed - not even by one cent. Also, it will typically be entered very
late in
> > the auction. If the auction ends with mine as the highest bid, it is
only
> > because my proxy maximum was higher than anyone else's proxy maximum. If
that
> > makes me a sniper, then "lock and load".
> >
> > Tom Veatch
> > Wichita, KS USA
>
>
> I've tried to figure out e-bay and the way you say you bid makes
> sense; however, why do you enter your one bid "very late in the
> auction"? Is that to reduce the time for people to outbid simply on a
> competitive basis?
>
> Charles Lerner

It is to keep the level of interest down. Some people bid on items based on
the number of bids it has. They believe a popular item must be a good one.
This is a fallacy.

Also sometimes people get caught up in bidding as a sport or competition. It
is better for the buyer to resist this temptation. By bidding later you
don't have doubts gnawing at you for a long time and you don't gain the
sense of having to win the item that you do by looking at it for a whole
week.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
> >On 10 Nov 2004 21:30:13 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>You're probably one of those people who, when you see "left lane closed
> >>ahead", waits to the very last moment before going over, aren't you.
> >
> >Gawd, don't you just hate those bozo's. I always hope they get all the
way up
> > to
> >the 'crunch point' and nobody lets 'em in. But it seems there is always
someone
> >up near the head of the line that's over endowed with a sense of courtesy
and
> >neighborly love.
>
> I watched *two* of those guys, in quick succession, in a construction zone
a
> few years ago. Guy in a pickup, pulling a boat trailer, is in the left
lane,
> sees the "closed ahead" sign 300 yards down the road, slows down, flips on
his
> turn signal, and starts looking for a place to move over. He's being a
Good
> Citizen. But the Me-First Selfish Bastard (MFSB) in the Beemer behind him
> can't wait. Honking his horn, flashing his lights, pounding the steering
wheel
> (really!), he passes on the shoulder, roars on down the road, and cuts in
to
> the right lane maybe 50 yards before the pylons. Not _ten_seconds_ later,
here
> comes MFSB #2, flying along in the left lane, passing everything in sight.
A
> tractor-trailer driver, having observed MFSB #1, moves over a bit to
partially
> block the left lane. MFSB #2 moves left, tractor-trailer moves farther
left,
> eventually blocks the entire lane. MFSB #2 passes him _in_the_median_,
> fishtailing all over the place in the grass, fights his way back onto the
> road, passes everything he can before getting to the pylons, cuts over
into
> the right lane _and_runs_into_another_car_.
>
> By and by, traffic crawled along to where I could clearly see the two cars
off
> on the shoulder. The guy that he hit ... was MFSB #1.

May I turn on my Rant Mode?

Oh Goody! Tell it again!

Didja ever see a lane closed traffic jam with two *big trucks* side by side
just crawling along? You know what they're doing, right? Sadly enough, some
states will stop & ticket them for it as "obstructing traffic". However,
it's *intensely* satisfying if you're the one in the lane staying open, and
you work right with the one who's got to move over, to let him slide his
tailgate in about a foot from your grill, and watch the first MFSB behind
him get stopped by the cones. It was my firm opinion even before I earned a
living as an OTR driver, that almost ALL construction backups could be
eliminated or at worst reduced to a minimum if all the MFSB's would pay
attention & do like the "Good Citizen" by blending & merging as soon as they
know which lane will be closed.

Sad to say, there are WWaaaayyyyyyy too many MFSB's in the world & on the
highways for this to ever happen.

Pet peeve # 40x, they all want to go nose to tail like a pachyderm parade.
Solution: back off & leave a little *buffer* zone, that way when the traffic
in front starts their accordion act, you don't have to stop & start sixteen
dozen times. You may just be able to slow down a little, then ease back into
the throttle again and keep moving. Not a sure-fire solution, but it does
help.

Rant Off.
--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:27 -0800, J <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> >> I understand it quite completely. I disagree with the ethics of those
who
> >> choose to exploit it.
> >
> > You don't seem to understand the basic principles of it. That is why I
think
> > you have a bad impression. Use your head.
>
> See above. I understand it, and disrespect people who choose to exploit
> that tactic. I further feel that people, like you, who go to great
> lengths to justify how it's _not_ unfairly decreasing the seller's
> price, while explaining that you do it to decrease the seller's price,
> are working hard to justify that to themselves.
>
> As interesting as this topic is(n't), I can't really see this going
> anywhere. You'll keep sniping, and I'l keep disrespecting you for it.

Sellers who don't like it can find a different venue. It is completely
within the rules.
You are right though, it is going nowhere with you. I guess I'll just have
to keep disrespecting you for having a mind that fails to comprehend this.
Bye.

-J

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Norman D. Crow" wrote in message
>
> > Pet peeve # 40x, they all want to go nose to tail like a pachyderm
parade.
> > Solution: back off & leave a little *buffer* zone, that way when the
> traffic
> > in front starts their accordion act, you don't have to stop & start
> sixteen
> > dozen times. You may just be able to slow down a little, then ease back
> into
> > the throttle again and keep moving. Not a sure-fire solution, but it
does
> > help.
>
> Won't work here in Houston because the #1 rule of freeway driving,
> noticeably invoked by the first big city easterner's who started showing
up
> in the mid 60's, is that said "buffer zone" must be filled immediately
from
> an adjacent, and momentarily slower, lane ... preferably at the last
second,
> and by a vehicle too large to fit.
>
> Prior to that, when driving in Houston you could actually leave a safe
> distance between you and the car in front of you and be reasonably sure
that
> no damn fool would pull into it.

Agreed! I might not have made myself entirely clear . . . This works once
you're *in* the single lane too, which is where I was really going. Once in
a while, I wouldn't make it into *the city* during the middle of the night
as planned, and would get caught in the morning rush hourS on I-80 in New
Jersey. I would generally get in the middle or one of the 2 middle lanes, as
we weren't allowed in the inside(left) lane, and didn't want to be in the
right lane and put up with entering/exiting traffic. Used to laugh my A**
off watching the lane hopping all over the place to try and gain one car
length! Really laughed when they would lane hop & get stuck there as I went
sliding on by.

Then of course there were always the morning truck races . . . truckers who
stopped to sleep in eastern PA or western NJ, get up about 4-4:30, grab some
coffee and join the mad dash to get into NYC just ahead of the auto rush
hourS.

--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Norman D. Crow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It was my firm opinion even before I earned a
> >living as an OTR driver, that almost ALL construction backups could be
> >eliminated or at worst reduced to a minimum if all the MFSB's would pay
> >attention & do like the "Good Citizen" by blending & merging as soon as
they
> >know which lane will be closed.
>
> My BIL said that when he was stationed at Pax River, one summer there was
a
> construction zone just outside the base that forced two lanes of traffic
> leaving the base to funnel down to one -- and everyone, without being
> instructed, with nobody directing traffic, simply took turns: left lane,
right
> lane, left, right, left, right... and traffic flowed as smoothly as could
be.

Yabbut, remember, these were all coming from the base, military or CS types,
not the general populace on a freeway. They also all had to come back
tomorrow or next week, and if you screwed up & pi**ed someone off, they knew
where you belonged, just *might* look you up!(LOL)

--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.

"Dave Mundt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Now, I have been a sniper for a long time on Ebay, and,
> the reason I do it is that I have come to the conclusion that
> there is a fairly large group of people who search for my user
> ID constantly, and, immediately bid anything I am going for
> well up over retail when they find it. It has happened JUST
> often enough to convince me of this fact. It is almost as
> if when folks see me bidding on something a little voice in
> their head says "This has GOT to be a great bargain, no matter
> WHAT it costs!!!! SO BUY IT!".

No doubt this is true. I've done it. If I see someone bidding on the same
things I've been looking at I check to see if there is something else they
are bidding on to see if there is something of interest that I don't know
about.

For example suppose I'm bidding on a Norris infill plane and norm1234 is
bidding on it too. I check his other bids and find out that he is bidding on
this thing called a Steve Knight Coffin Smoother. Hmmm. I hadn't thought to
search for that, but hey it looks like a good thing to bid on.

The only thing that is false is the "great bargain" part. Discretion is
always necessary.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "J" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >
> >No doubt this is true. I've done it. If I see someone bidding on the same
> >things I've been looking at I check to see if there is something else
they
> >are bidding on to see if there is something of interest that I don't know
> >about.
> >
> How do you check to see what items somebody is bidding on?

http://ebay.com
click "advanced search"
http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/AdvSearch?
on the left nav bar click "items by bidder"

-j

"Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:52:24 GMT, Lobby Dosser
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Answer: many people use sniping software or services that
> >>> automatically increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that
> >>> eBay is making. If the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping
> >>> bid, then the proxy will win. Otherwise the sniper will win.
> >>
> >> IOW, if you bid the maximum you are willing to pay for an item, a
sniper
> >> cannot get that item for less. Doesn't seem like an issue.
> >
> > Close, but wrong. IOW, the person bidding by proxy defines his upper
> > limit, the person bidding by sniping defines his as "50 cents more than
> > the other guy". If it's not done to reduce what the sniper pays, then
> > what
> > is it for?
> >
>
> In a "real" auction, the auctioneer usually does not drop the hammer until
> he/she receives the last bid. As long as there are bidders, the bidding
> continues. Not so with Ebay; when the clock runs out, its ended. I think
> it would be greatly beneficial to the sellers if Ebay would allow the
> bidding continue after the end of the auction as long as bids continue to
be
> received, i.e. end the auction when no more bids are received in a 15
second
> period. That allows the "Johnny come lately" to out bid the sniper if he
so
> chooses.
>
> Gary

Isn't then the Johnny come lately just sniping the sniper's bid? (not that I
have a problem with it, it just doesn't seem to fix the problem of people
bidding at the last minute)

Actually there are plenty of sealed bidding situations in the world. That is
the model adopted by ebay.
We have already heard of many examples where things already go for more than
retail. Ebay to continue has to be beneficial to both buyers and sellers. If
buyers are turned off by high prices they won't bother anymore and ebay will
die. Remember that the buyer is the one person in the whole ebay world who
is willing to pay the price for the item. What good would squeezing a few
more dollars out of him do? The popularity of ebay by both buyers and
sellers seems to suggest (not prove) that they are doing a decent job of
balancing the needs of both.

-j

On 10 Nov 2004 19:01:14 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>So you admit that a sniper's goal is to pay as little for the item as
>he can, right?

I would assume that is EVERY bidder's goal. It is certainly my goal in any
auction whether my bid is placed 5 seconds after the bidding opens or 5 seconds
before the bidding closes.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and someone
>bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum bid, what
>does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you, then notify the
>sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is likely too late for
>him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding your maximum means that
>you will never be outbid by a bid under your maximum.
>
You are correct. A "sniper" bid is no different than any other bid. It is only a
"snipe" when it is placed near the end of the bidding period. As far as the
operation within eBay is concerned, it doesn't matter whether the bid is placed
manually or using some "clock-watcher" software program.

eBay enters (and increases to the proxy maximum) the "snipe" bid exactly the
same way as any other proxy bid is entered (and increased). If you lose an eBay
auction to a "sniper", it is simply because you either didn't enter the true
maximum amount you were willing to pay, or the later bidder was willing to pay
more.

In the absence of unusual circumstances, I will typically enter only one bid in
an eBay auction. But that bid will be for an amount which I am not willing to
exceed - not even by one cent. Also, it will typically be entered very late in
the auction. If the auction ends with mine as the highest bid, it is only
because my proxy maximum was higher than anyone else's proxy maximum. If that
makes me a sniper, then "lock and load".

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:16:53 GMT, TWS <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 9 Nov 2004 22:20:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>Now, let's look at it as a buyer. I really want that widget, but I
>>>want to pay as little as I can for it, but I _really want_ to buy it.
>>> I bid what I think it'll go for, and seconds before it expires,
>>>someone snipes it for slightly more than I bid, not giving me a
>>>chance to make another offer. It's an unfair advantage for those
>>>willing to resort to sniping software.
>>>
>> eBay has proxy bidding. This allows you to bid the maximum you are
>> willing to pay so you don't have to have instantaneous access to the
>> bidding status, eBay will do your up-bidding for you.
>
> Exactly, and sniping bypasses all of that. The sniper gets to pick
> his max as 50 cents more than yours, rather than their real max.

Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and someone
bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum bid, what
does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you, then notify the
sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is likely too late for
him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding your maximum means that
you will never be outbid by a bid under your maximum.

>
> In a real auction, you've got the "going...going...gone" to make sure
> everyone gets their bids in. Much as I like eBay, I'd like 'em a lot
> more if they had the 15-minute option.
>
>
>

Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and
>>someone bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum
>>bid, what does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you,
>>then notify the sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is
>>likely too late for him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding
>>your maximum means that you will never be outbid by a bid under your
>>maximum.
>>
> You are correct. A "sniper" bid is no different than any other bid. It
> is only a "snipe" when it is placed near the end of the bidding
> period. As far as the operation within eBay is concerned, it doesn't
> matter whether the bid is placed manually or using some
> "clock-watcher" software program.
>
> eBay enters (and increases to the proxy maximum) the "snipe" bid
> exactly the same way as any other proxy bid is entered (and
> increased). If you lose an eBay auction to a "sniper", it is simply
> because you either didn't enter the true maximum amount you were
> willing to pay, or the later bidder was willing to pay more.
>
> In the absence of unusual circumstances, I will typically enter only
> one bid in an eBay auction. But that bid will be for an amount which I
> am not willing to exceed - not even by one cent. Also, it will
> typically be entered very late in the auction. If the auction ends
> with mine as the highest bid, it is only because my proxy maximum was
> higher than anyone else's proxy maximum. If that makes me a sniper,
> then "lock and load".

That's pretty much the way I've been doing it. About the only exception
I'll make is probing a reserve. Some sellers I am familiar with will list
items with and without reserve. Typically their reserve plus S&H is
higher than I want to pay and sometimes higher than I can buy elsewhere
off the shelf. If I bid the minimum right off the bat and find a reserve,
I know not to waste any more time on the item.

Can't see what all the fuss is about, but I wasn't sure exactly how e-bay
worked internally. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

LD
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA
>

John Thomas <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Prior to that, when driving in Houston you could actually leave a
>> safe distance between you and the car in front of you and be
>> reasonably sure that no damn fool would pull into it.
>>
>
> Houston has no monopoly on idiots. Same thing here in Oregon. No one
> knows how to freaking *merge*. Coupled with continuous highway
> construction, we avoid the freeways unless it's impossible to do so.
>
> Regards,
> JT
>

When I moved to Oregon in 1970 I5 was being repaired. I5 has been under
continuous "repair" for 34 years now, and perhaps longer. Same thing with
Portland Airport.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:46:58 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mat A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
>> on their website. Are people that stupid
>
>Yes, they are that stupid. I collect fountain pens. I've seen brand new
>retail $30 pens go for $50 on eBay. I've seen antique pens worth $100 go
>for $20. Probably because they are old.
>
>There are bargains, but you have to know what things are worth and know when
>to stop bidding.
>
for sure on the knowing when to stop!
I bid on a lot of Shopsmith stuff on Ebay, so when something comes up,
I go to the SS web site and price it...
Obviously, most folks don't, because I see a lot of used stuff going
for more than the new price.. bidding fever? caught up in the moment??
dunno...

A friend bought a sears router template kit for letters and used it
quite a few times... bought it for $19.95 and sold it for $21 plus
shipping on ebay...

On 10 Nov 2004 20:18:42 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>In other words, for you, personal gain is more than
>"doing the right thing".

The usual neo crap: "Think my way or you're immoral."
It really comes down to the fact that you're lazy.

In article <[email protected]>, John Thomas <[email protected]> wrote:

>I used to maintain that it was illegal to know how to build a road here.
>There's been pretty much zero planning for most of the urban growth, and

That's a big problem here in Indiianapolis, too. Every time they start a major
highway project, it seems that it's designed for the amount of traffic the
highway carries at the time the planning is done, with no assumption of any
growth. This guarantees that when construction actually finishes, five years
after the plans were made, the highway is inadequate for the (increased)
traffic it then carries. The thing that really burns me is that they've been
doing it that way for thirty years, and nobody in the highway department has
figured it out yet.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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On 10 Nov 2004 20:45:39 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>You're intentionally missing the point, Tom, and you know it. Nice try
>though.

I may be missing the point, but if so, I assure you that it is not intentional.

I believe the basis of our misalignment is our differing beliefs relative to the
nature of "sniped" bids. You seem to hold that there is some difference between
a "snipe" and a normal proxy bid placed in the closing seconds of an auction. My
contention is that there is absolutely no difference between the two.

If, just for the sake of argument, you temporarily accept my contention of there
being no difference, perhaps you will understand the reason for my asking about
the latest time a bid could be ethically placed.

On the other hand, if your contention is true - that a "snipe" bid is of the
form "xx cents more than the other guy" - then I whole-heartedly agree with most
of what you've said in this thread. In that scenario, I would hold "sniping" to
be unethical at best.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

> I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
> nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
> on their website. Are people that stupid
>
>
People get rediculous on eBay. They get extremely competetive because there it is,
something they can actually "win" because they got the money. It is too wierd some-
times. I've seen a 9 1/2 Stanley go for around $100 in semi-poor, user condition and
then one in much nicer condition go for around $30. Just where does that "heat"
come from?

Alex

On 10 Nov 2004 20:42:26 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Yes, and in a fair and equitable system, both bidders will have an equal chance
>to do so. By chosing to snipe, you are depriving the other bidder of that
>chance.

Absolutely not true in a proxy auction like e-bay.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On 10 Nov 2004 19:47:38 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:32:14 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The simplest and most productive thing to do is to
>> go on to a snipe service site and register the max
>> you are willing to bid plus how close to the end of
>> the auction (usually in seconds) you wish to have
>> your bid placed. If you end up with the item, fine.
>> If you don't you don't. Unless you were betting on
>> something that is extremely rare, the odds are that
>> the same or similar item will pop up again, often
>> within a week.
>
>No, the simplest and most productive thing to do, is to use the proxy
>bid system as designed, rather than trying to weasel in at the last
>second to buy it for as little as you can.

That's the simplest, but I believe that most people would
define "productive" in this case as buying "for as little as
you can." Everyone loves the capitalist system, `xcept
when they're negatively affected.

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:IUikd.592$ho6.60@trnddc05...
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:e5hkd.1508$w.1118@trnddc02...
> >> Question: assume there is less than a minute left on an item and
> >> someone bids more than your current bid, but less than your maximum
> >> bid, what does e-bay do? I suspect they outbid the sniper for you,
> >> then notify the sniper that he's been outbid. At which point it is
> >> likely too late for him to bid again. IF this is true, then bidding
> >> your maximum means that you will never be outbid by a bid under your
> >> maximum.
> >
> > Answer: many people use sniping software or services that
> > automatically increase the bid to continue to beat the proxy bid that
> > eBay is making. If the max proxy bid is more that the max sniping
> > bid, then the proxy will win. Otherwise the sniper will win.
>
> IOW, if you bid the maximum you are willing to pay for an item, a sniper
> cannot get that item for less. Doesn't seem like an issue.

For whatever reason, many people do not bid the maximum amount they would
pay. Don't ask me why this is. Perhaps they subconsciously think of it more
in terms of a live auction and bid enough to outbid the current high bid.
The proof is that sniping is very often successful.

todd

Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>By chosing to snipe, you are depriving the other bidder of that
>chance.

OTOH, every auction that I have personally won was one that I sniped.
Without exception. So when I sell stuff, I don't mind if it's sniped.
--
Howard
eBay id: celtic_fiddler
Current listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2283162354&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:39:35 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>I would assume that is EVERY bidder's goal. It is certainly my goal in any
>auction whether my bid is placed 5 seconds after the bidding opens or 5 seconds
>before the bidding closes.


Dave's problem is that he's not comfortable with the system
so he wants it to operate by his rules.

"Chris Hornberger" <chris@no_spam.chornbe.com> wrote:

>When I listed mine they
>were one of about 10 sets of IDENTICAL saddlebags and the ABSOLUTE BEST I
>expected to do on them was break even and barely at that.
>
>Here endeth the lesson on human stupidity. And people wonder why the world's
>in the state it is.

Not just stupidity, but some luck involved, too. For instance, I have
a very nice leather duffle up on eBay right now (id: celtic_fiddler),
but despite the retail value (well over $100) and the low starting
price, I have no bids, and only a handful of 'watchers'.

Oh well. This one is nice enough that I won't mind keeping it. OTOH,
if my listing style is not good enough, I'm going to have to get
better at it when I start trying to sell my fiddles.

--
http://book-reviews.hostpci.com Book reviews -- Salesmanship & related topics
Howard Lee Harkness

In article <[email protected]>, "J" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Actually there are plenty of sealed bidding situations in the world. That is
>the model adopted by ebay.

No. Ebay is not a sealed bid auction. In a sealed bid auction, all bidding is
completely secret until the end of the auction. Until the bidding closes, none
of the bidders has *any* information about the number of competing bidders,
their identities, or the amounts they have bid. After close of bidding, all
this information is made public at once. Thus, each bidder has no reason to do
anything other than to make a single bid at the lowest price he believes will
be sufficient to win the auction, or the maximum he is willing to pay,
whichever is less -- and no reason to make a last-minute bid, either.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:29:46 GMT, "Mat A" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
>nielsen tools.

Go look in the ebay newsgroups.
Clearly people in auctions Are Just Barking Mad

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:29:46 GMT, "Mat A" <[email protected]>
wrote:

|I can't for the life of me believe the bidding that goes on on ebay for lie
|nielsen tools. I'm now seeing planes going for more than LN sells them for
|on their website. Are people that stupid

Maybe this is why:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5072949.html