Edge Joining Plywood

<[email protected]> wrote:

> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers
> have been all over the place. :-)

The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the
plywood edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more
easier, I say).

I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing
here, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg

The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle
board and it slopes down at 15°:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg

Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg

I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6"
wide piece, which has a 15° bezel on the front and rear:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg

I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom
original piece onto the ends of the new piece:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg

Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go down to your handy dandy Home Depot and get a couple of paint
mixing sticks.

Run thru table saw to form 1" wide strips (splines).

Cut to length as required.

Cut 1/2" deep slots in both pieces of plywood using slot cutter.

Assemble splines, plywood pieces and glue with TiteBond II.

Allow a couple of days to cure out.

(A couple of beers aids in this part of the process.)

Sand smooth and apply vinyl.

Time for more beer to enjoy your accomplishments.

Have fun.

Lew

On 11/25/2012 11:03 AM, HerHusband wrote:
>>> Anthony Watson
>>> Mountain Software
>>> www.mountain-software.com/about.htm
>>
>> Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.
>> Impressive ...
>
> Thank you!
>

Allow me to second that. VERY nice work, Anthony!

How many acres comprise your little hideaway in God's Country? Looks to
be a beautiful area.

"HerHusband" wrote:

> We have just under two acres in Camas, Washington. We bought the
> property
> back in 1991, and lived in a single wide mobile home until 2004.
> Once we
> finished the house, we sold the mobile and moved it off the
> property.
>
> We love the area but it has really grown up in the last 10 years.
> What was
> mostly beautiful forest is now littered with million dollar gated
> McMansions. It is still relatively peaceful, but I miss the wildlife
> and
> privacy we used to have up here. Such is progess...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Other than having the personal satisfaction of knowing every piece
that went into the construction a home that was designed and built
to meet your every specification which has a value that can't be
priced, a couple of questions:

1) Would you do it again?

2) If you spent the same amount of time at your profession earning
an income and hiring all the subcontractors rather than do the work
yourselves, would it have cost you more than doing it yourselves?

Just curious.

Lew

Who built a boat rather than a house.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 13:23:07 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
wrote:

>On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:00:06 PM UTC-5, chaniarts wrote:
>> On 11/21/2012 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the roof of a cabinet.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>>
>> >
>>
>> > (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Thanks.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Darren Harris
>>
>> > Staten Island, New York.
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> a&c probably won't work, unless you use a very extended overlap (like
>>
>> many inches at least).
>
>I was afraid someone would say that.
>
>Ok. In order to accomplish "B", let's say I grab my 1/4" slot cutting bit and make the slot in the edge of the main piece.
>
>I then slide a 1/4" piece or hardwood into that slot and lay my router on top of the main piece in a position that will allow a 1/2" diameter straight bit (I don't think I have a Rabbeting bit) to rest on the hardwood before tightening it up to get the depth accurate. (And then route and do the same for the bottom).
>
>Would that work?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Darren Harris
>Staten Island, New York.
If you got the slot cutter, why not slot both pieces and make a
spline? No fussy set-up for the router for a second cut and plenty
strong enough.

On Monday, November 26, 2012 3:48:43 PM UTC-6, tiredofspam wrote:
> > Yep, I hadn't been watching this thread, but when I peaked ....

Yeah, he's been holding back on us and just recently (that I recall) showed us their excellent works. He gave us a previous peek, about a week or so ago, in the Redwood Boards thread (I think, it was).

Sonny

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/21/12 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:00:50 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>=20
> >> On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three=
pictured examples to go with?
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you would=
a
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> panel, with a butt joint.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly because i=
t
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it unnecessary to do a=
ny
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit jointer.
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above simpl=
y
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most of the
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> time you can't even see the join in the finished part.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Thanks everyone.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've se=
en were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45=B0 angle.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both ply=
wood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Darren Harris
>=20
> > Staten Island, New York.
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the people
>=20
> selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If you don't have a lot to do and can take your time, you can figure out
>=20
> a way to help line up and hold the joint so it it perfectly flush. I
>=20
> have a bunch of harbor freight wide mouth vise-grip clamps that work
>=20
> great for this. But often it's just a matter of taking the time to make
>=20
> sure it's flush as you're clamping. The problem with doing it "freehand"
>=20
> is that your solid wood piece has often warped a bit and won't line up
>=20
> along the entire length of plywood without some encouragement: clamps.
>=20
> But it can be done.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Like I wrote, having a router table makes the whole process much faster
>=20
> and stress free. If you have one, make the pieces thinker than the
>=20
> plywood and flush cut it with a pattern bit. If not, do your best and
>=20
> trim by sanding or a VERY sharp plane. <-- advanced technique, very easy
>=20
> to f@C# up. :-)

The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've always=
equated to mean *hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm working with.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:40:38 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> > I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers have =
been all over the place. :-)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the pl=
ywood edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more easier=
, I say).
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing =
here, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle boar=
d and it slopes down at 15=EF=BF=BD:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6" wi=
de piece, which has a 15=EF=BF=BD bezel on the front and rear:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom origin=
al piece onto the ends of the new piece:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Thanks everyone.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Darren Harris
>=20
> > Staten Island, New York.
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The reasons the answers were all over the place are...
>=20
> a. speculation from woodworkers... woodworkers are prone to overdoing=20
>=20
> things.
>=20
> b. many, including me, didn't read your entire post... or they jumped=20
>=20
> into the discussion without reading your OP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> However, if you weed through the posts to get to the information coming
>=20
> from those of us who have actually done what you're trying to do, you'll
>=20
> see a consensus to use the KISS rule and do the simplest joint in the
>=20
> simplest way.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> After looking at you pictures, I'm puzzled why you are even attempting
>=20
> to extend a piece of plywood and not just cut another crap the correct
>=20
> size, or go to the lumber yard and get a 24x48 pre-cut piece of MDF for
>=20
> like 5 bucks and cut it exact.

Because I have the scrap plywood. Home Depot and Lowes have run all lumber =
yards near me out of business. It would definitely cost me more than $5 to =
go pick up MDF. And I don't use MDF for anything except jigs and flat surfa=
ces.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Dec 2, 7:02 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > It worked out well and is now one solid piece. I spray painted one
> > side, but think I'd sand it and prime before spray painting again.
>
> Why sand it and prime it before spraying again? Did something go wrong? =
If
> it's just to get another coat on, there would be no need to prime again.

No, this particular small portion wasn't primed. Just sanded and spray
painted. And since the "grain" of the veneer on this part goes in two
different directions, thanks to this being two different pieces
joined, I can tell when looking at it. So I sanded and then I made
sure to prime this time. I just have to spray paint it again.

On Dec 2, 12:55=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Don't think for a second that just because the project is successfully
> completed it puts to an end the barrage of people telling you you did it
> wrong and how to do it better. =A0 :-)

I'd never think such a thing. :-)

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Nov 21, 3:56=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a small=
piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before painting=
, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the roof of =
a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pic=
tured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%2...
>
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).

Biscuits or splines.

On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:16:55 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> Darren,
>
>
>
> > Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a
>
> > small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand,
>
> > before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing
>
> > position at the roof of a cabinet.
>
> > Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three
>
> > pictured examples to go with?
>
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20P
>
> > rojects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
> > (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>
>
>
> If you're only extending an inch or two in a non stress situation, I would
>
> just use glue and a simple butt joint. No need for fancy joinery. It's no
>
> different than gluing a trim strip to the front edge of a plywood shelf,
>
> and I've been doing that for years.
>
>
>
> I have done exactly what you are trying to do to fix mistakes when I
>
> accidentally cut a panel too short for a project. Except for the glue line,
>
> you would never know the panel was extended once the project is finished.
>
>
>
> For joining larger sections together I would probably use the Lap Joint in
>
> your "A" example, or do a variation of "B" with a slot cutter and a wood
>
> spline in between. Of course, I've used pocket screws to join panels when
>
> the joint wasn't visible and that worked fine also.

Thanks.

It worked out well and is now one solid piece. I spray painted one side, but think I'd sand it and prime before spray painting again.

And nice work on those projects of yours. Especially your house. It certainly makes my micro project seem insignificant. :-)

It's an inspiration towards doing things for oneself, which results in you getting exactly what you want and cutting out as many middle men as possible. :-)

I guess taking the time to learn can save a lot of money if one is motivated.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On 11/22/2012 10:46 AM, dpb wrote:

Your point is valid and should not be ignored in deciding upon the
suitability of this method for an intended purpose.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/21/2012 3:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the roof of a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

I would think A would be best.

On 11/21/2012 4:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've always equated to mean*hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm working with.

Although the technique is identical, I think Mike is focusing on what is
akin to "edge banding" plywood with hardwood.

If I understand you correctly, you're just trying to add a bit of length
to some too short plywood, with another piece of plywood.

Basic methodology is the same either way ... a glued "butt" joint.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to
> extend a small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill
> and sand, before painting, since it the piece will be in a
> non-load bearing position at the roof of a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following
> three pictured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworki
> ng%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
I agree with the others who think that neither option A nor C will
work.

If you need to extend it by only "an inch or so", then IMO your
best bet is option B *twice*: add half the extension at each end.
It'll look like you planned it that way.

Darren,

> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a
> small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand,
> before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing
> position at the roof of a cabinet.
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three
> pictured examples to go with?
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20P
> rojects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).

If you're only extending an inch or two in a non stress situation, I would
just use glue and a simple butt joint. No need for fancy joinery. It's no
different than gluing a trim strip to the front edge of a plywood shelf,
and I've been doing that for years.

I have done exactly what you are trying to do to fix mistakes when I
accidentally cut a panel too short for a project. Except for the glue line,
you would never know the panel was extended once the project is finished.

For joining larger sections together I would probably use the Lap Joint in
your "A" example, or do a variation of "B" with a slot cutter and a wood
spline in between. Of course, I've used pocket screws to join panels when
the joint wasn't visible and that worked fine also.

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com/about.htm

>> Anthony Watson
>> Mountain Software
>> www.mountain-software.com/about.htm
>
> Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.
> Impressive ...

Thank you!

>>> Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.
>>> Impressive ...

> Allow me to second that. VERY nice work, Anthony!
> How many acres comprise your little hideaway in God's Country? Looks to
> be a beautiful area.

We have just under two acres in Camas, Washington. We bought the property
back in 1991, and lived in a single wide mobile home until 2004. Once we
finished the house, we sold the mobile and moved it off the property.

We love the area but it has really grown up in the last 10 years. What was
mostly beautiful forest is now littered with million dollar gated
McMansions. It is still relatively peaceful, but I miss the wildlife and
privacy we used to have up here. Such is progess...

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com/about.htm

Lew,

> Other than having the personal satisfaction of knowing every piece
> that went into the construction a home that was designed and built
> to meet your every specification which has a value that can't be
> priced, a couple of questions:
> 1) Would you do it again?

Absolutely, without question. It was one of the best experiences of my
life, and my wife and I really enjoyed working together on it. We have
done several major projects since then and will probably continue to do
so.

Of course, I'm not as young as I used to be. It seems everything takes a
little bit more effort than it did just nine years ago. :)

The only real downside was the time investment. Recreation activities
were limited, as every free moment was spent working on the house. Any
extra money we had went into building supplies, so we rarely ate out or
took vacations. And, I had to cut my business hours in half so I could
spend most of each day building. It's a major commitment that you have to
stay focused on. If you get distracted by new "toys", socializing with
friends, or recreational activities, it could take you a very long time
or risk never completing it.

We also made the commitment not to move into the house before it was
completed. Once you move in, it's far to easy to ignore the projects that
still need to be completed. It's also a lot more work when you have
furniture and whatnot to work around.

> 2) If you spent the same amount of time at your profession earning
> an income and hiring all the subcontractors rather than do the work
> yourselves, would it have cost you more than doing it yourselves?

I have nothing to compare it to, but I think hiring out for the same
house we have today would have cost a lot more.

It cost us $60,000 to build our house, starting with a small savings, a
little out-of-pocket each month, and a little on the credit card near the
end. By the time we finished our credit balance was around $8000, but we
were able to pay that off when when we sold our old mobile home a couple
months later.

One of the big advantages of building it ourselves out-of-pocket is that
we had no mortgage to worry about when we were done. Even if we were to
break even by hiring out, the ongoing costs of a loan would have meant a
lot more expense.

It takes more time, dedication, and study than most people are willing to
give. In our case, it also meant one of us had to keep working a full
time job. But for those who can I highly recommend it.

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com/about.htm

> I'm impressed with the wife's ability to work with wood too.

Yep, I am very thankful she enjoys working on DIY projects also.

She actually built a hope chest for her younger sister that was a virtual
copy of the one I made her when we were dating. Of course, she had the
luxury of power tools to build hers. :)

> You two did a great job, something to be proud of.

Unlike most couples I hear about, we work well together. In fact, we
probably get along better when we're buried in a project than we do in
daily life. :) I suppose it's a common goal for us to share. We tend to
agree rather well on things like paint colors and other details, so that
helps a lot too.

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com/about.htm

On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?

What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you would a
panel, with a butt joint.

The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly because it
makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it unnecessary to do any
sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit jointer.

I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above simply
by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most of the
time you can't even see the join in the finished part.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:00:50 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three p=
ictured examples to go with?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you would a=
=20
>=20
> panel, with a butt joint.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly because it=
=20
>=20
> makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it unnecessary to do any=
=20
>=20
> sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit jointer.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above simply=
=20
>=20
> by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most of the=20
>=20
> time you can't even see the join in the finished part.

Thanks everyone.

What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've seen w=
ere with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45=B0 angle.

It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both plywood=
pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:00:06 PM UTC-5, chaniarts wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a sma=
ll piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before painti=
ng, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the roof o=
f a cabinet.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three p=
ictured examples to go with?
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20P=
rojects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Thanks.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Darren Harris
>=20
> > Staten Island, New York.
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> b
>=20
>=20
>=20
> a&c probably won't work, unless you use a very extended overlap (like=20
>=20
> many inches at least).

I was afraid someone would say that.

Ok. In order to accomplish "B", let's say I grab my 1/4" slot cutting bit a=
nd make the slot in the edge of the main piece.

I then slide a 1/4" piece or hardwood into that slot and lay my router on t=
op of the main piece in a position that will allow a 1/2" diameter straight=
bit (I don't think I have a Rabbeting bit) to rest on the hardwood before =
tightening it up to get the depth accurate. (And then route and do the same=
for the bottom).

Would that work?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Friday, November 23, 2012 1:17:10 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/22/12 11:23 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>=20
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >
>=20
> >> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers
>=20
> >> have been all over the place. :-)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the
>=20
> > plywood edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more
>=20
> > easier, I say).
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing
>=20
> > here, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:
>=20
> >
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle
>=20
> > board and it slopes down at 15=B0:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6"
>=20
> > wide piece, which has a 15=B0 bezel on the front and rear:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom
>=20
> > original piece onto the ends of the new piece:
>=20
> > http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position=
%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.
>=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>=20
> > Go down to your handy dandy Home Depot and get a couple of paint
>=20
> > mixing sticks.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Run thru table saw to form 1" wide strips (splines).
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Cut to length as required.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Cut 1/2" deep slots in both pieces of plywood using slot cutter.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Assemble splines, plywood pieces and glue with TiteBond II.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Allow a couple of days to cure out.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > (A couple of beers aids in this part of the process.)
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Sand smooth and apply vinyl.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Time for more beer to enjoy your accomplishments.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Have fun.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Lew
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I don't understand why you're trying to get the guy to do so much more=20
>=20
> work than is necessary... *especially* after seeing what he's actually=20
>=20
> needing to do.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> For Pete's sake, for the intended purpose, glue would be overkill, since=
=20
>=20
> he said it's being covered in vinyl AND there will be pieces screwed to=
=20
>=20
> it from underneath. I don't know, I think this is the perfect job for=20
>=20
> duct tape.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please don't give this guy any advise on changing a light bulb. :-p

I think that most here are used to conventional projects, so it is difficul=
t to get out of the mid-set of having to glue something together in such a =
way as to be able to withstand various forces and stress. This little roof =
I'm re-creating is a little out of the nor, so one has to keep reminding th=
emselves that the finished piece only has to stay at it's location and do n=
o supporting whatsoever.

Also, I never could understand the difficulty in aligning items to be glued=
using splines and so forth. My projects have been small enough to just put=
the pieces together and lay them flat on a sheet of MDF with a couple of 2=
5lbs barbell plates laying across the seam until the glue dries. If done ri=
ght the bottom always ends up flat across the seam and sanding *before* fil=
ler is not required.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:29:06 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>=20
> > On 11/22/2012 10:32 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>=20
> > ...
>=20
> >
>=20
> >> Simple and easy way is to clamp thin, narrow boards or ply along one
>=20
> >> piece along the edge where you are going to put the other, apply
>=20
> >> glue, slide piece #2 between the clamped on guides.
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Be sure pieces are either finished or use wax paper or blue tape or
>=20
> > some other method to not glue them to the finished work from the
>=20
> > squeeze out...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No need, once the joint has been glued and clamped just remove the guide=
=20
>=20
> pieces.

I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers have been=
all over the place. :-)

The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the plywoo=
d edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more easier, I =
say).

I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing here=
, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:=20

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20I=
I%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg

The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle board an=
d it slopes down at 15=B0:=20
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20I=
I%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg

Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:=20
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20I=
I%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg

I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6" wide p=
iece, which has a 15=B0 bezel on the front and rear:=20
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20I=
I%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg

I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom original p=
iece onto the ends of the new piece:=20
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20I=
I%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg

Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.

Thanks everyone.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:35:09 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>The glue will be stronger than the plywood. More surface area would be
>unnecessarily redundant. He already said it is non load bearing, so even
>more reason to do the simplest technique. However, even if it was load
>bearing, the glue joint would be stronger than the plywood.

Yeah, but it's plywood which has a tendency to separate when force is
applied to the slices ~ as compared to most any hardwood which does
not.

I'm not going to label it nonsense, but I am highly dubious of glued
butt joined plywood being able to withstand most any flexing or
shearing force.

On 11/21/2012 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've seen were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45° angle.

Technically, what you describe above is generally known as a "scarf" joint.

> It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both plywood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).

That's exactly what we're saying. :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/21/2012 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the roof of a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

b

a&c probably won't work, unless you use a very extended overlap (like
many inches at least).

On 11/21/12 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a
small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand, before
painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at
the roof of a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following
> three
pictured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

None of the above. Just a simple butt joint. You can make the solid wood
piece a bit thicker and then trim it flush with a pattern bit in a
router table.

Or you can cut the pieces the same thickness and used some scrap pieces
with wax paper to keep the edges aligned while clamping. You can also
use pocket holes and screws.

I've done probably a couple hundred feet of this and I've tried all the
fancy bit and edge joints and techniques and biscuits and every other
what-not you see and hear about. What I settled on was simple butt
joints, and flush trimming with the router. It's the fastest, easiest,
and plenty strong enough. The glue is stronger than the plywood.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a
> small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand,
> before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing
> position at the roof of a cabinet.
>
> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three
> pictured examples to go with?
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20Projects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>
> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).

For what you want, any will work. Of the three you show, I'd probably do
the first.

Other options: spline, biscuits, "V", butt. A butt joint would do fine
especially if you used thickened epoxy as the glue; no need to clamp even,
just push together and leave alone for a day.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 11/21/12 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:00:50 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?
>>
>>
>>
>> What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you would a
>>
>> panel, with a butt joint.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly because it
>>
>> makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it unnecessary to do any
>>
>> sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit jointer.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above simply
>>
>> by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most of the
>>
>> time you can't even see the join in the finished part.
>
> Thanks everyone.
>
> What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've seen were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45° angle.
>
> It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both plywood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the people
selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)

If you don't have a lot to do and can take your time, you can figure out
a way to help line up and hold the joint so it it perfectly flush. I
have a bunch of harbor freight wide mouth vise-grip clamps that work
great for this. But often it's just a matter of taking the time to make
sure it's flush as you're clamping. The problem with doing it "freehand"
is that your solid wood piece has often warped a bit and won't line up
along the entire length of plywood without some encouragement: clamps.
But it can be done.

Like I wrote, having a router table makes the whole process much faster
and stress free. If you have one, make the pieces thinker than the
plywood and flush cut it with a pattern bit. If not, do your best and
trim by sanding or a VERY sharp plane. <-- advanced technique, very easy
to f@C# up. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/21/12 4:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've
>> seen were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45° angle.
>
> Technically, what you describe above is generally known as a "scarf" joint.
>
>> It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both
>> plywood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).
>
> That's exactly what we're saying. :)
>

You are much more succinct that I.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/21/12 4:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/21/12 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:00:50 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>> On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three pictured examples to go with?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you would a
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> panel, with a butt joint.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly because it
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it unnecessary to do any
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit jointer.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above simply
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most of the
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> time you can't even see the join in the finished part.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Thanks everyone.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've seen were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45° angle.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It sounds like you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both plywood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary).
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Darren Harris
>>
>>> Staten Island, New York.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the people
>>
>> selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> If you don't have a lot to do and can take your time, you can figure out
>>
>> a way to help line up and hold the joint so it it perfectly flush. I
>>
>> have a bunch of harbor freight wide mouth vise-grip clamps that work
>>
>> great for this. But often it's just a matter of taking the time to make
>>
>> sure it's flush as you're clamping. The problem with doing it "freehand"
>>
>> is that your solid wood piece has often warped a bit and won't line up
>>
>> along the entire length of plywood without some encouragement: clamps.
>>
>> But it can be done.
>>
>>
>>
>> Like I wrote, having a router table makes the whole process much faster
>>
>> and stress free. If you have one, make the pieces thinker than the
>>
>> plywood and flush cut it with a pattern bit. If not, do your best and
>>
>> trim by sanding or a VERY sharp plane. <-- advanced technique, very easy
>>
>> to f@C# up. :-)
>
> The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've always equated to mean *hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm working with.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York
>

So, you now realize that everything I've been describing does just as
well with any and all woods, correct?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/21/12 4:53 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 4:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've
>> always equated to mean*hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm
>> working with.
>
> Although the technique is identical, I think Mike is focusing on what is
> akin to "edge banding" plywood with hardwood.
>
> If I understand you correctly, you're just trying to add a bit of length
> to some too short plywood, with another piece of plywood.
>
> Basic methodology is the same either way ... a glued "butt" joint.
>

Oh, OK. I must've glanced over the part about doing a plywood to
plywood joint.

In that case, I reiterate everything I wrote? :-) A butted glue joint,
plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
the expansion rates will be equal.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/21/12 11:02 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 8:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/21/12 4:53 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2012 4:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've
>>>> always equated to mean*hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm
>>>> working with.
>>>
>>> Although the technique is identical, I think Mike is focusing on what is
>>> akin to "edge banding" plywood with hardwood.
>>>
>>> If I understand you correctly, you're just trying to add a bit of length
>>> to some too short plywood, with another piece of plywood.
>>>
>>> Basic methodology is the same either way ... a glued "butt" joint.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, OK. I must've glanced over the part about doing a plywood to plywood
>> joint.
>>
>> In that case, I reiterate everything I wrote? :-) A butted glue joint,
>> plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
>> the expansion rates will be equal.
>>
>>
>
> Nonsense.
>
> A scarfed joint maybe.
> But a butt joint?
> No way.

Are you going to back this up with any facts or just run away?
Spouting off an opinion without backing it up is what is nonsense.

The glue will be stronger than the plywood. More surface area would be
unnecessarily redundant. He already said it is non load bearing, so even
more reason to do the simplest technique. However, even if it was load
bearing, the glue joint would be stronger than the plywood.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/22/2012 3:11 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:35:09 -0600, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> The glue will be stronger than the plywood. More surface area would be
>> unnecessarily redundant. He already said it is non load bearing, so even
>> more reason to do the simplest technique. However, even if it was load
>> bearing, the glue joint would be stronger than the plywood.
>
> Yeah, but it's plywood which has a tendency to separate when force is
> applied to the slices ~ as compared to most any hardwood which does
> not.
>
> I'm not going to label it nonsense, but I am highly dubious of glued
> butt joined plywood being able to withstand most any flexing or
> shearing force.

It'll have about half the strength of the same thickness of solid
lumber--essentially forget about the end grain plies and only consider
the plies w/ long grain as being the effective thickness of the material.

That's not exact because there is some plus from the endgrain section
but there's also a counter effect that the small sections of edge grain
aren't connected. I've seen some test data from like Purdue or the
Forest Products Lab or somesuch place but a quick search didn't locate
it this morning...

But, for the OPs purpose it'll work perfectly well...

--

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/21/12 4:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:00:50 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following
>>>> three pictured examples to go with?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What -MIKE- says, "none of the above" ... glue it up just as you
>>> would a panel, with a butt joint.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The only way I would differ would be to use biscuits, mainly
>>> because it makes it easier to align the faces, thus making it
>>> unnecessary to
>>> do any sanding and risk destroying the veneer, and I own a biscuit
>>> jointer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have made many a plywood panel wider/longer by doing the above
>>> simply by using cutoff's from the same sheet ... and by doing so, most
>>> of
>>> the time you can't even see the join in the finished part.
>>
>> Thanks everyone.
>>
>> What was confusing me was the "butt joint". All the butt joints I've
>> seen were with hardwood, and the joint was at a 45° angle. It sounds like
>> you are saying to just put glue on the edges of both
>> plywood pieces and clamp them together. (No routing necessary). Darren
>> Harris
>> Staten Island, New York.
>>
>
> Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the
> people selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)
>
> If you don't have a lot to do and can take your time, you can figure
> out a way to help line up and hold the joint so it it perfectly
> flush.

Simple and easy way is to clamp thin, narrow boards or ply along one piece
along the edge where you are going to put the other, apply glue, slide piece
#2 between the clamped on guides.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 11/21/2012 8:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

> ... A butted glue joint,
> plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
> the expansion rates will be equal.

Not so fast...

Assuming the same material in the same orientation so the plies match
up, there is (roughly) half the material that is edge grain to edge
grain and thereby an effective glue surface.

On the other half, you have end-grain facing end grain and it will have
essentially no strength from the glue joint (normal gluing practices,
yellow pva, etc., etc., ...).

So, in essence, if you start w/ a 3/4" ply, your end result is (again
roughly) as if the actual material were more like 3/8" in thickness.
That ain't too bad, and will suffice for many applications as in OP's
and as Swing notes he's done (and I'd think virtually all who have done
any significant amount of cabinet work will have at some point--it's
just too common a problem of having need for that smidge more material
that doesn't justify the cost of a whole sheet for the purpose).

You're right that if you were to do the classic joint test on the result
w/ a test specimen you would find that most of the fractures will be of
the long grain breaking rather than the glue joint itself separating.
But, what you're not accounting for is that there isn't that much long
grain...so even if the joint that is glued is as strong, it's putting
the 90-lb weakling in the same ring as the weight lifter when it gets
down to the actual strength--that smaller glue joint area and material
just can't support what twice the material can/would.

As noted down thread a little earlier (I hadn't seen this part before
that seemed worthy of direct comment), I have seen such test data altho
I don't recall precisely where (and on T-day I'm not spending any more
time looking for it again). In that, study abicr the result was
generally slightly less than that of the equivalent long-grain plies and
was attributed to the two or three plies of solid material not being
physically together as one solid section.

I don't recall it being in that study, but I'd expect w/ proper
preparation such as sizing the end grain plies and using epoxies one
could manage to increase the bond strength a fair amount but I would
still doubt one could achieve the same strength as an equivalent of same
thickness of solid material.

--

On 11/22/2012 10:52 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> One would probably presume that you would not change outer veneer grain
> direction. If the outer veneer grain is run in the same direction the
> inner ply's should be running in the same direction also.
...

If it's from the same piece and same face up, of course. But, not
_necessarily_ so in general. Some isn't symmetric from face to rear,
for example. And two panels of same species veneer but different
manufacturers might not coincide even if a decent match of the face
grain is possible.

Simply included for preciseness of description...

One other thing...lumber-core ply does act in this regard much like
solid lumber--not surprising since, in fact, it is mostly a solid core.
Of course, the core ply in solid core is rarely glued (if ever; won't
say it hasn't been done but I've never seen a sheet that was nor recall
a spec for it) the strength along the length isn't nearly what a regular
piece of ply of the same thickness will bear...

--

On 11/22/2012 10:32 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...

> Simple and easy way is to clamp thin, narrow boards or ply along one piece
> along the edge where you are going to put the other, apply glue, slide piece
> #2 between the clamped on guides.

Be sure pieces are either finished or use wax paper or blue tape or some
other method to not glue them to the finished work from the squeeze out...

--

On 11/22/12 10:32 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the
>> people selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)
>>
>> If you don't have a lot to do and can take your time, you can figure
>> out a way to help line up and hold the joint so it it perfectly
>> flush.
>
> Simple and easy way is to clamp thin, narrow boards or ply along one piece
> along the edge where you are going to put the other, apply glue, slide piece
> #2 between the clamped on guides.
>

Excellent.
Hopefully, remove clamped on guides before glue sets is the next step.
Ask me how I know. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/22/12 10:46 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 8:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> ...
>
>> ... A butted glue joint,
>> plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
>> the expansion rates will be equal.
>
> Not so fast...
>
> Assuming the same material in the same orientation so the plies match
> up, there is (roughly) half the material that is edge grain to edge
> grain and thereby an effective glue surface.
>
> On the other half, you have end-grain facing end grain and it will have
> essentially no strength from the glue joint (normal gluing practices,
> yellow pva, etc., etc., ...).
>
> So, in essence, if you start w/ a 3/4" ply, your end result is (again
> roughly) as if the actual material were more like 3/8" in thickness.
> That ain't too bad, and will suffice for many applications as in OP's
> and as Swing notes he's done (and I'd think virtually all who have done
> any significant amount of cabinet work will have at some point--it's
> just too common a problem of having need for that smidge more material
> that doesn't justify the cost of a whole sheet for the purpose).
>
> You're right that if you were to do the classic joint test on the result
> w/ a test specimen you would find that most of the fractures will be of
> the long grain breaking rather than the glue joint itself separating.
> But, what you're not accounting for is that there isn't that much long
> grain...so even if the joint that is glued is as strong, it's putting
> the 90-lb weakling in the same ring as the weight lifter when it gets
> down to the actual strength--that smaller glue joint area and material
> just can't support what twice the material can/would.
>
> As noted down thread a little earlier (I hadn't seen this part before
> that seemed worthy of direct comment), I have seen such test data altho
> I don't recall precisely where (and on T-day I'm not spending any more
> time looking for it again). In that, study abicr the result was
> generally slightly less than that of the equivalent long-grain plies and
> was attributed to the two or three plies of solid material not being
> physically together as one solid section.
>
> I don't recall it being in that study, but I'd expect w/ proper
> preparation such as sizing the end grain plies and using epoxies one
> could manage to increase the bond strength a fair amount but I would
> still doubt one could achieve the same strength as an equivalent of same
> thickness of solid material.
>
> --

Like I said.... rocket science. :-p
Happy Thanksgiving!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

dpb wrote:

> I don't recall it being in that study, but I'd expect w/ proper
> preparation such as sizing the end grain plies and using epoxies one
> could manage to increase the bond strength a fair amount but I would
> still doubt one could achieve the same strength as an equivalent of
> same thickness of solid material.

I guarantee you that one can glue two pieces of ply together edge to edge
with epoxy and that the ply will break before the glue joint.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dpb wrote:
> On 11/22/2012 10:32 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
>> Simple and easy way is to clamp thin, narrow boards or ply along one
>> piece along the edge where you are going to put the other, apply
>> glue, slide piece #2 between the clamped on guides.
>
> Be sure pieces are either finished or use wax paper or blue tape or
> some other method to not glue them to the finished work from the
> squeeze out...

No need, once the joint has been glued and clamped just remove the guide
pieces.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers have been all over the place. :-)
>
> The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the plywood edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more easier, I say).
>
> I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing here, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg
>
> The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle board and it slopes down at 15°:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg
>
> Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg
>
> I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6" wide piece, which has a 15° bezel on the front and rear:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg
>
> I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom original piece onto the ends of the new piece:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg
>
> Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.
>
> Thanks everyone.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>


The reasons the answers were all over the place are...
a. speculation from woodworkers... woodworkers are prone to overdoing
things.
b. many, including me, didn't read your entire post... or they jumped
into the discussion without reading your OP.

However, if you weed through the posts to get to the information coming
from those of us who have actually done what you're trying to do, you'll
see a consensus to use the KISS rule and do the simplest joint in the
simplest way.

After looking at you pictures, I'm puzzled why you are even attempting
to extend a piece of plywood and not just cut another crap the correct
size, or go to the lumber yard and get a 24x48 pre-cut piece of MDF for
like 5 bucks and cut it exact.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/22/12 10:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> After looking at you pictures, I'm puzzled why you are even attempting
>>
>> to extend a piece of plywood and not just cut another crap the correct
>>
>> size, or go to the lumber yard and get a 24x48 pre-cut piece of MDF for
>>
>> like 5 bucks and cut it exact.
>
> Because I have the scrap plywood. Home Depot and Lowes have run all
lumber yards near me out of business. It would definitely cost me more
than $5 to go pick up MDF. And I don't use MDF for anything except jigs
and flat surfaces.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

I understand. The ones around here have bins with smaller pre-cut pieces.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/22/12 11:23 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting. The answers
>> have been all over the place. :-)
>
> The only real surprise to me was the recommendation to just glue the
> plywood edges to each other without any special routing. (All the more
> easier, I say).
>
> I try to keep things simple, but just to show *exactly* what I'm doing
> here, I'm replacing the top of a game cabinet like this:
>
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PolePositionII.jpg
>
> The 22-1/2" x 6" piece above the marquee is vinyl covered particle
> board and it slopes down at 15°:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof.jpg
>
> Here's a shot of the cabinet without it:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoof-less.jpg
>
> I will make the 5" wide piece I have wider to match this original 6"
> wide piece, which has a 15° bezel on the front and rear:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofTop.jpg
>
> I will then glue/screw the two 3/4" blocks taken from the bottom
> original piece onto the ends of the new piece:
> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Pole%20Position%20II%20Project/PPIIMarqueeRoofBottom.jpg
>
> Those two blocks will also be glued back to the inside of the cabinet.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Go down to your handy dandy Home Depot and get a couple of paint
> mixing sticks.
>
> Run thru table saw to form 1" wide strips (splines).
>
> Cut to length as required.
>
> Cut 1/2" deep slots in both pieces of plywood using slot cutter.
>
> Assemble splines, plywood pieces and glue with TiteBond II.
>
> Allow a couple of days to cure out.
>
> (A couple of beers aids in this part of the process.)
>
> Sand smooth and apply vinyl.
>
> Time for more beer to enjoy your accomplishments.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>

I don't understand why you're trying to get the guy to do so much more
work than is necessary... *especially* after seeing what he's actually
needing to do.

For Pete's sake, for the intended purpose, glue would be overkill, since
he said it's being covered in vinyl AND there will be pieces screwed to
it from underneath. I don't know, I think this is the perfect job for
duct tape.

Please don't give this guy any advise on changing a light bulb. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Don't forget dowels as an alignment option, if you don't have a biscuit
joiner.

On 11/22/2012 1:26 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>> I don't recall it being in that study, but I'd expect w/ proper
>> preparation such as sizing the end grain plies and using epoxies one
>> could manage to increase the bond strength a fair amount but I would
>> still doubt one could achieve the same strength as an equivalent of
>> same thickness of solid material.
>
> I guarantee you that one can glue two pieces of ply together edge to edge
> with epoxy and that the ply will break before the glue joint.

I'd be _real_ surprised at that indeed...

W/o the continuous surface faces and with the smaller cross-section of
length-grain, it makes no physical sense. Even epoxies don't do _that_
well in butt-grain applications.

--

On 11/23/12 8:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/22/2012 7:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting.
>
> Arguably a naive/unreasonable expectation on Usenet.
>
> "Consensus" depends on _opinion_, and a belief that those participating
> have a basic _understanding_ of the issue.
>
> Something you most certainly do not want to rely/base decisions upon on
> Usenet.
>

Misquoting me? C'mon man! I may have to run for office some day. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/21/2012 2:56 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of

plywood just to extend a small piece an inch or so, I

decided to edge join fill and sand, before painting, since

it the piece will be in a non-load bearing position at the

roof of a cabinet.

>

Suggestion:

Use a slot cutter on a router. Cut the same slot on both pieces. Make
a custom "spline". Masonite makes great splines, use the appropriate
cutter. I would probably consider making this joint on two larger
pieces rather than splicing on a very narrow piece.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

On 11/21/2012 5:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Yes. We like to make rocket science out of this stuff... and the people
> selling specialty jig and bit like to, as well. :-)

Speaking of which...

A while back (as an experiment) I fastened two pieces of 3/4" ply (each
maybe 18" x 6") edge-to-edge along the longer side with three pocket
screws. I managed to get the joint lined up quite nicely and it felt
pretty solid, even without glue. I don't know if I would trust such a
joint for something heavy-duty, but it doesn't sound like the OP needs
that. It was quick too.

Official Disclaimer: The source of the above "advice" is a novice.

[email protected] wrote:

>
> It worked out well and is now one solid piece. I spray painted one
> side, but think I'd sand it and prime before spray painting again.
>

Why sand it and prime it before spraying again? Did something go wrong? If
it's just to get another coat on, there would be no need to prime again.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/1/12 11:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:16:55 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
>> Darren,
>>
>>
>>
>>> Rather than having to buy a whole sheet of plywood just to extend a
>>
>>> small piece an inch or so, I decided to edge join fill and sand,
>>
>>> before painting, since it the piece will be in a non-load bearing
>>
>>> position at the roof of a cabinet.
>>
>>> Can I get recommendations on the best way between the following three
>>
>>> pictured examples to go with?
>>
>>> http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Woodworking%20P
>>
>>> rojects/EdgeJoiningPlywood.jpg
>>
>>> (I'm trying to keep this simple and fast).
>>
>>
>>
>> If you're only extending an inch or two in a non stress situation, I would
>>
>> just use glue and a simple butt joint. No need for fancy joinery. It's no
>>
>> different than gluing a trim strip to the front edge of a plywood shelf,
>>
>> and I've been doing that for years.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have done exactly what you are trying to do to fix mistakes when I
>>
>> accidentally cut a panel too short for a project. Except for the glue line,
>>
>> you would never know the panel was extended once the project is finished.
>>
>>
>>
>> For joining larger sections together I would probably use the Lap Joint in
>>
>> your "A" example, or do a variation of "B" with a slot cutter and a wood
>>
>> spline in between. Of course, I've used pocket screws to join panels when
>>
>> the joint wasn't visible and that worked fine also.
>
> Thanks.
>
> It worked out well and is now one solid piece. I spray painted one side, but think I'd sand it and prime before spray painting again.
>
> And nice work on those projects of yours. Especially your house. It certainly makes my micro project seem insignificant. :-)
>
> It's an inspiration towards doing things for oneself, which results in you getting exactly what you want and cutting out as many middle men as possible. :-)
>
> I guess taking the time to learn can save a lot of money if one is motivated.
>
> Darren Harris
> Staten Island, New York.
>

Don't think for a second that just because the project is successfully
completed it puts to an end the barrage of people telling you you did it
wrong and how to do it better. :-)

Congrats, btw.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/24/2012 11:16 AM, HerHusband wrote:

> Anthony Watson
> Mountain Software
> www.mountain-software.com/about.htm

Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.

Impressive ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/22/2012 7:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

> I certainly didn't get the consensus I was expecting.

Arguably a naive/unreasonable expectation on Usenet.

"Consensus" depends on _opinion_, and a belief that those participating
have a basic _understanding_ of the issue.

Something you most certainly do not want to rely/base decisions upon on
Usenet.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/25/2012 12:03 PM, HerHusband wrote:
>>> Anthony Watson
>>> Mountain Software
>>> www.mountain-software.com/about.htm
>>
>> Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.
>> Impressive ...
>
> Thank you!
>
Yep, I hadn't been watching this thread, but when I peaked and saw the
accolades, I took a look. Very nice.

I'm impressed with the wife's ability to work with wood too. You two did
a great job, something to be proud of.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:00:06 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>>> Love your website, and, even better, what you've accomplished.
>>>> Impressive ...
>
>> Allow me to second that. VERY nice work, Anthony!
>> How many acres comprise your little hideaway in God's Country? Looks to
>> be a beautiful area.
>
>We have just under two acres in Camas, Washington. We bought the property
>back in 1991, and lived in a single wide mobile home until 2004. Once we
>finished the house, we sold the mobile and moved it off the property.
>
>We love the area but it has really grown up in the last 10 years. What was
>mostly beautiful forest is now littered with million dollar gated
>McMansions. It is still relatively peaceful, but I miss the wildlife and
>privacy we used to have up here. Such is progess...

You should have bought 2k acres instead. A few miles to your nearest
neighbor. (Don't we all wish...)

--
Good ideas alter the power balance in relationships, that is why
good ideas are always initially resisted. Good ideas come with a
heavy burden. Which is why so few people have them. So few people
can handle it.
-- Hugh Macleod

On 11/21/2012 8:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/21/12 4:53 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/21/2012 4:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> The problem was that you keep using the term "solid wood" which I've
>>> always equated to mean*hardwood*, which of course is not what I'm
>>> working with.
>>
>> Although the technique is identical, I think Mike is focusing on what is
>> akin to "edge banding" plywood with hardwood.
>>
>> If I understand you correctly, you're just trying to add a bit of length
>> to some too short plywood, with another piece of plywood.
>>
>> Basic methodology is the same either way ... a glued "butt" joint.
>>
>
> Oh, OK. I must've glanced over the part about doing a plywood to plywood
> joint.
>
> In that case, I reiterate everything I wrote? :-) A butted glue joint,
> plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
> the expansion rates will be equal.
>
>

Nonsense.

A scarfed joint maybe.
But a butt joint?
No way.

On 11/22/2012 10:46 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 8:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> ...
>
>> ... A butted glue joint,
>> plywood to plywood, will be even stronger than to solid wood, because
>> the expansion rates will be equal.
>
> Not so fast...
>
> Assuming the same material in the same orientation so the plies match
> up, there is (roughly) half the material that is edge grain to edge
> grain and thereby an effective glue surface.


One would probably presume that you would not change outer veneer grain
direction. If the outer veneer grain is run in the same direction the
inner ply's should be running in the same direction also.