Downes & Reader lumber truck hits and kills cyclist

"B A R R Y" wrote in message

> Unfortunately, it had to turn into a demonstration of traffic law
> ignorance.

That was my point about the majority of adult bike riders you see around
here. They are subject to the rules of the road, but don't abide by them out
of ignorance ... theirs.

But then again, many of those very same ignoramuses do the same in their
autos ... so to say we have fostered a nation of scofflaws, bike or auto,
wouldn't be an inarguable stretch, unless you somehow haven't been on a
freeway lately.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/6/06

As a Cyclist and customer my thoughts and prayers to the both the
cyclist and drivers families.

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:19:01 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry for them too.
> >Please rethink urban cycling, suburban cycling too, for that matter.
>
> Good advice. Folks who like scooters, four-wheelers, or other
> recreational vehicles don't get to use the public roadways.

You seem to have skipped over the operative word - public.

As far as the other stuff (pick one):
It's a two way street.
Live and let live.
Can't we all just get along?

R

> Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
> I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
> dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
> right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the

I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
rude to a bicyclist. As a biker, I see it often. By the way, the
situation you describe above is hardy 'rude'. It's called avoiding
debris and other obstacles in the road. A bicyclist is much safer
holding a line close to the white line than darting out to avoid
obstacles.

Exactly. The one illegal move that really makes me mad, precisely
because it puts me at risk of injuring one of these idiots, is passing
on the right at a stop sign intersection where I am making a right hand
turn. One of these days it will result in tragedy. I've been taking
to pulling right up to the curb so there is no passing. Also, red
lights, these guys think because they are on bikes they are exempt.

But I do feel bad for those involved in the recent accident.

Mutt


Swingman wrote:
> "Mcfly" wrote in message
>
> > I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
> > have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
> > a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
> > rude to a bicyclist.
>
> As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ... then
> again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the road
> rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
> auto/cyclist issues.
>
> ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign on
> a residential street?
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 5/6/06

Ignornace, I think not. I've yet to see bicyclists obey the "rules" of
the road, especially, as I noted earlier, by not passing on the right
and by obeying red lights. If a bicyclist is truly using the road like
"any other slow-moving vehicle" then perhaps licenses should be issued
and tickets given - but I've never seen that happen, expect perhaps
only for DWI on a bicycle (yes, in NJ it's happened) in extreme
circumstances. And yes, the bicyclist is supposed to keep to the
right, and frankly every time I have been subject to 3 or 4 across
cyclists who INTEND to block the road they should be ticketed and the
bicycles siezed, because as far as I am concerned they are a traffic
nusiance and a danger to themselves, and others. Keeping to the right
is one of the "rules of the road" and in my experience with groups of
riders not honored.

I'm not suggested you are one of the violaters, frankly you strike me
as one who is thoughtful about your choice of transportation, but some
of your brethern should perhaps pay a little more attention to the laws
before they kill themselves or others with their actions.

Mutt

_"I_ ride as courteously as legally as possible (I try to drive, walk,
and fly that way too... <G>), but folks who think I'm supposed to stay
on the sidewalk when I'm using my bicycle AS TRANSPORTATION really get
my dander up."

Here in Northampton MA you would actually get warned the first time
riding your bike in town on a sidewalk. Pedestrians cross the very busy
road without looking at crosswalks because they have the first right of
way then bikes than cars. Yes the town police on there bikes are riding
in the lanes that others have questioned.Yes I break some laws when
riding my bike. Yes I break some laws when driving my car at 74 mph in
65 zone on highways. But I do believe in respect. I ride the white line
to avoid the potholes and winter sand etc.I yield to pedestrians when
on a bike and yield to bikes when in a car.

Leuf wrote:
>
> The point of my story is not that cyclists are the problem. Motorists
> are not the problem. Stupid people are the problem.

We have the winning entry, ladies and germs. Thanks for playing.

R

In article <[email protected]>,
Pig <[email protected]> wrote:
>Ignornace, I think not. I've yet to see bicyclists obey the "rules" of
>the road, especially, as I noted earlier, by not passing on the right
>and by obeying red lights.

Many bicyclists operate in an improper and illegal manner. I'm one of
those who actually _does_ follow the 'rules of the road'. Doing so, I once
startled the driver of a _police_car_ so badly they ran off the road, and
nearly had a one-car accident. They were dawdling (10-15MPH) down the
right-hand lane of a 3-lane one-way downtown street, when I passed them in
the center lane going about the legal limit (25), with a full-size slow-moving
vehicle emblem on the back. About the time I'm 5 ft past their front bumper,
the driver flinched right, *hard*, and ran up on the sidewalk before coming
to a stop.

> If a bicyclist is truly using the road like
>"any other slow-moving vehicle" then perhaps licenses should be issued
>and tickets given

Violators -are- subject to ticketing for _all- traffic violations -- the
degree of enforcement does tend to vary widely by locale. I've known towns
where it _was_ enforced rigorously -- mostly college communities, where
the cyclists may have out-numbered the cars. :)

> - but I've never seen that happen, expect perhaps
>only for DWI on a bicycle (yes, in NJ it's happened) in extreme
>circumstances.

(story here recently, about a guy arrested for DWI on a riding lawnmower! :)

Around 40 years ago, I got stopped for going through a police radar
zone at an excessive speed ON A BICYCLE. (special circumstances, involving
a large downhill, and a _big_ tailwind.) In those days, in _that_ locale,
(and this was before the bicycle boom of the 1970s), traffic laws were in
the motor vehicle code, and applied *ONLY* to 'motor vehicles'. I got a
chewing out (entirely justified) regarding how dangerous what I'd done was,
but then the cos got into a discussion of "what _could_ they write me for",
if they were so inclined. After _quite_ a "committee meeting", the conclusion
was that *at*that*time* there wasn't anything on the books (city or state)
that covered the situation -- 'speeding', 'reckless driving', etc., all
required a _motor_ vehicle. I don't know just when it happened, but, as
of several years later, there was explicit law requiring bicycles 'operated
on the roadway' to follow *all* 'motor vehicle' operation laws; 'equipment'
laws -- turn signals, brake lights, windshield washers, etc. -- were a
separate matter, from which bicycles were exempt. And the seat-belt
legislation expressly exempted all two-wheel motor vehicles.


> And yes, the bicyclist is supposed to keep to the
>right, and frankly every time I have been subject to 3 or 4 across
>cyclists who INTEND to block the road they should be ticketed and the
>bicycles siezed, because as far as I am concerned they are a traffic
>nusiance and a danger to themselves, and others. Keeping to the right
>is one of the "rules of the road" and in my experience with groups of
>riders not honored.

A cyclist is _legally_ entitled to the *full*width* of the lane in which
they are riding.

When I was 'slow traffic', I routinely rode 'at the right side of the
outside lane'. I can remember _once_ being granted the full-lane
rights by a motorized vehicle operator. Now, I have to explain that
(a) I lived on the very edge of town, (b) did a fair amount of riding
on nearby rural 'secondary roads', (c) not infrequently _at_night_, and
(d) therefore, had a _full-size_ 'slow moving vehicle' emblem across the
back of the baskets on the bike.

One day, I'm making a left turn through a traffic light onto a 4-lane
road, at the end of the light, into a moderately steep, moderately lengthy
_uphill_ pull. I get through the intersection on the tail end of the
*green* (not pushing it, I stop for yellow:), and the SEMI TRUCK that
was sitting at the intersection waiting for it to go green his way,
pulls up behind me, and _stays_there_ waiting until he can swing _entirely_
out into the center lane to pass me. I'm going slow enough (8MPH?) that a
'safe following distance' is *not* terribly far behind me.

That street _did_ have fairly wide lanes; he _could_ have crowed all the
way over to the left, and passed me in the same lane.

It would have almost been preferable if he had -- a laboring semi sitting
a mere 25 ft or so behind you for nearly _two_minutes_ is *NOT* conducive
to ones comfort. <wry grin>

>I'm not suggested you are one of the violaters, frankly you strike me
>as one who is thoughtful about your choice of transportation, but some
>of your brethern should perhaps pay a little more attention to the laws
>before they kill themselves or others with their actions.

Agreed 100%

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message

> I think a few well placed .45s would cure that
> complex, but then a few well placed .45s would
> cure a lot of bad attitudes.

LOL ... It's a damn good thing for a whole bunch of shitheads that neither
you, nor I, am in charge.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/6/06

Oregon even has a manual for bicyclist:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike_manual_06.pdf

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> They actually stay to the side where you're at? Around here, many of them
> have taken the attitude that they are equal to a car. The ride right IN
> traffic and expect you to slowly fallow them. Of course, when it comes to
> traffic jams or intersections, they are no longer equal to a car and no
> longer fallow the law.
>

Same here. They're carried away with their attitude in their spandex
outfits and about the only time you see one riding well off the white line
is when he/she has a partner riding next to them - on the white line, so
they can visit with each other while ignoring traffic. I have no sympathy
for bike riders who complain about cars on the road - it is after all a
road, and most times by far, it's the bike rider that causes the problems.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 20 May 2006 00:02:21 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
>states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
>rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
>laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
>car and do not require bicycles to come to
>complete stops at every stop sign.

When I was in 6th grade one day I was getting off the school bus in
front of my house just like every other day. As I was crossing the
street I was probably thinking things like should I get the math
homework out of the way first, or fool around until dinner. The next
thing I knew I was on the ground about 10 feet back and to the right
of the last I remembered.

Lacking any other explanation I assumed I had tripped. How do you
trip in the middle of the street I wondered. How embarassing.
Everyone is leaning out of the bus staring at me, how am I gonna live
this one down. I was endeavoring to get my ass into the house as
quickly yet nonchalantly as possible, but it was difficult as
everything was spinning.

You know that feeling you have when you cut yourself and it doesn't
hurt yet, but you know it's going to? I suppose I had that feeling as
my hand went up to my face sort of on its own. After looking at the
blood on my fingers for a second or two I gave up on the nonchalant
approach and bolted for Mommy.

As it turns out what actually happened was someone on a bike decided
they would go around the bus with its stop sign and flashing red
lights into the opposing lane to pass it. His shoulder got me square
in the mouth. I consider myself lucky to have only lost a couple
teeth from it. I don't have any memory of the collision and I was so
disoriented after I never saw him at the side of the road with his
busted up bike and shoulder. I do however quite clearly remember
standing in front of the bathroom mirror staring at my face still
waiting for it to start hurting while my mom was out in the street
looking for my teeth.

The point of my story is not that cyclists are the problem. Motorists
are not the problem. Stupid people are the problem. As a society we
haven't yet gotten the balls to say "I'm sorry, you're a moron. You
can't use the roads." We'd take care of the whole 'energy crisis' and
put a dent in health care costs in one fell swoop.

Stop signs are there for the stupid people that can't figure out that
stopping there would be a good idea. The problem is that stupid
people are not able to determine that they are stupid and that the
signs are for them. So let's just stop at the fucking sign, okay?


-Leuf

On Fri, 19 May 2006 19:22:57 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Marlow wrote:
>> I have no sympathy
>> for bike riders who complain about cars on the road - it is after all a
>> road, and most times by far, it's the bike rider that causes the problems.
>
>Sympathy? Where do you get your stats? It sounds like the cyclist is
>causing the problem, because you don't know the rules of the road!
>
>Did any of YOU know that a bicycle has full rights to a public road
>(except marked limited access interstate highways and certain placarded
>parkways), as in the same as a motor vehicle, in ALL 50 states?
>

Legal doesn't necessarily have to mesh with common sense. The roads were
built for cars.

>That's right, they can, and in many cases, need to be in the travel
>lane. In fact the PROPER, LEGAL, and often RECOMMENDED by the DOT, way
>to turn left in most states is for the cyclist to move to the left side
>of the lane, near the yellow line, signal, and turn left. If it's a
>road with multiple travel lanes, the cycle needs to be in the proper
>lane for turning. The DOT even has a name for it, it's called "taking
>the lane".
>

So they get full rights of cars, except when they get more rights by not
having to stop at stop signs.


>Most states allow a bicycle to be legally operated as a vehicle (inside
>the travel lane), OR a pedestrian (outside the travel lane, on sidewalks
>or crosswalks), at the cyclist's discretion. The bicycle is expected to
>follow the rules and responsibilities of the chosen mode of operation,
>and receives all rights accorded to other users of the same mode.
>


Then the same application of the law vis a vis minimum speeds and
obstructing traffic should be enforced. If I drove my car 15 mph down a 45
mph road without pulling to the side and letting traffic pass me, I
guarantee you I would be ticketed for driving too slow and obstructing
traffic.



>In most every case a bicycle is legally the same as an Amish horse-drawn
>buggy, farm tractor, or any other slow-moving vehicle. The laws are
>usually worded something like "the bicyclist shall keep to the right _as
>practical_" "As practical" can mean many different things, depending
>upon conditions of the surface, speeds, etc...
>

Again, as stated above, those vehicles are required to move aside, stop
and let traffic backed up behind them pass if they are creating an
obstruction.

>I've had occasions where I'm in the center of a lane, because _I_ am
>going 45 MPH down a hill in a 45 MPH zone, and had some mullet head
>tailgate me. Read that again... I was doing the POSTED SPEED LIMIT.
>At the speed limit, there's no reason for me to be on the shoulder, and
>it's unsafe for me to be on the shoulder, in the loose stuff and debris.
> _I_ ride as courteously as legally as possible (I try to drive, walk,
>and fly that way too... <G>), but folks who think I'm supposed to stay
>on the sidewalk when I'm using my bicycle AS TRANSPORTATION really get
>my dander up.

I have yet to see any bicyclist do anything close to speed limit on the
roads I travel. If the loose stuff and debris on the side of the road are
such a hazard, that kind of points out that a bicycle isn't exactly the
equivalent form of transportation and fully capable of sharing the same
roadways, doesn't it?



>
>I started this thread only because some folks here might have crossed
>paths with the driver and/or his company, some of us are cyclists who
>could take a moment to remember a fallen brother, and others might just
>take a moment to think. Not to place fault, since even the on-scene
>witnesses and accident investigators haven't done so.
>

It is truly a shame that a life was lost. Part of the reason for my
rant is that the behavior I have seen is such that someone, someday is
going to get hurt. The driver who gets involved in that incident is going
to feel really bad about what happens. The problem is, whether legally in
the right or wrong, the bicyclist is still going to be hurt or dead. The
fact is that in any clash between a bike and a car, the car wins -- always.


>Unfortunately, it had to turn into a demonstration of traffic law
>ignorance.

... and a demonstration of arrogance, lack of courtesy, and and impolite
behavior. i.e, because the law is on one's side and the side of the road
doesn't meet the bicyclist's exacting requirements, it is perfectly OK to
inconvenience others in the pursuit of one's own pleasure. Have you ever
stopped to think that those folks who are being slowed down and
inconvenienced, having to wait for someone on a bicycle to allow them to
pass, may be on their way to be able spend time with their family or do
something that *they* enjoy?




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:19:01 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm sorry for them too.
>Please rethink urban cycling, suburban cycling too, for that matter.

Good advice. Folks who like scooters, four-wheelers, or other
recreational vehicles don't get to use the public roadways.


>I like cycling, but the reality is that there are too many dumb,
>thoughtless, and plain mean drivers for it to be generally practical these
>days.

Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the
left, often violating lane markers to allow the cyclists their state-given
5 feet of clearance.


> I don't even ride my motorcycle any more because of the idiot driver
>problem.
>Our kids are not allowed on the road without an adult along either, and
>that's only in the local, fairly sheltered environment.
>Is it worth exposing yourself to tragedy to prove you are entitled to use
>the roads?
>The rude cyclists who intentionally interfere with traffic aren't helping
>the situation either!

I live on a road that is two-lane with approximately a 12 to 18 inch
blacktop shoulder. This particular road has several corners and curves
around hills. Speed limit on the road is 45 and should be that speed for
the area in which we live. It is a low-density population area with
approximately 4 miles of travel to reach the nearest highway, any slower
would be a travesty and inconvenience to those who live in this area and
use that road to travel to work and engage in commerce. We have a
significant number of cyclists who use the road for recreational purposes
and are dead-set that they are going to enforce their right to make sure
that cars give them the legal 5 feet of clearance out of the roadway by
riding on the white line or to the lane side of the white line. Forcing
traffic to swerve around them to give them the clearance requires the
passing car to use the oncoming lane. Someday one of these cyclists is
going to be on the blind side of one of those hills and a car is going to
have to decide between a head-on collision or hitting the cyclist. While
the cyclist may be in the right as far as the clearance to be allowed,
being right doesn't make up for somebody being dead.




>Wilson
>"henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> As a Cyclist and customer my thoughts and prayers to the both the
>> cyclist and drivers families.
>>
>


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:56:08 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"B A R R Y" wrote in message
>
>> Unfortunately, it had to turn into a demonstration of traffic law
>> ignorance.
>
>That was my point about the majority of adult bike riders you see around
>here. They are subject to the rules of the road, but don't abide by them out
>of ignorance ... theirs.
>
>But then again, many of those very same ignoramuses do the same in their
>autos ... so to say we have fostered a nation of scofflaws, bike or auto,
>wouldn't be an inarguable stretch, unless you somehow haven't been on a
>freeway lately.


We get swarms of cycalistas around here.

One of the local cops got tired of their unsafe conduct and set up a
speed trap by a local school that happens to be at the bottom of a
long hill.

On a Saturday morning, when there happened to be an event at this
school, he pulled over three separate groups of cycalistas and gave
them all tickets for speeding in a school zone, a not inconsiderable
fine here in Pennsyltucky. The school zone lights were flashing, so
it was all fair.

He made sure that the busts got into the local paper and the local
bicycle shops made sure that the clipping was on their walls.

The cop told me that he wrote out sixty some tickets that morning.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

How many will get their fat as#es out of a car and walk? How often do you
see someone circle a parking lot several times to avoid having to walk an
extra fifty feet.
"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Heck most people don't even know or
> adhere to the pedestrian rules!

Sorry guys.

I was just hoping that we could take a moment for those involved, rather
than argue about fault share comments about random idiots.

They actually stay to the side where you're at? Around here, many of them
have taken the attitude that they are equal to a car. The ride right IN
traffic and expect you to slowly fallow them. Of course, when it comes to
traffic jams or intersections, they are no longer equal to a car and no
longer fallow the law.

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:19:01 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry for them too.
> >Please rethink urban cycling, suburban cycling too, for that matter.
>
> Good advice. Folks who like scooters, four-wheelers, or other
> recreational vehicles don't get to use the public roadways.
>
>
> >I like cycling, but the reality is that there are too many dumb,
> >thoughtless, and plain mean drivers for it to be generally practical
these
> >days.
>
> Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
> I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
> dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
> right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the
> left, often violating lane markers to allow the cyclists their state-given
> 5 feet of clearance.
>
>
> > I don't even ride my motorcycle any more because of the idiot driver
> >problem.
> >Our kids are not allowed on the road without an adult along either, and
> >that's only in the local, fairly sheltered environment.
> >Is it worth exposing yourself to tragedy to prove you are entitled to use
> >the roads?
> >The rude cyclists who intentionally interfere with traffic aren't helping
> >the situation either!
>
> I live on a road that is two-lane with approximately a 12 to 18 inch
> blacktop shoulder. This particular road has several corners and curves
> around hills. Speed limit on the road is 45 and should be that speed for
> the area in which we live. It is a low-density population area with
> approximately 4 miles of travel to reach the nearest highway, any slower
> would be a travesty and inconvenience to those who live in this area and
> use that road to travel to work and engage in commerce. We have a
> significant number of cyclists who use the road for recreational purposes
> and are dead-set that they are going to enforce their right to make sure
> that cars give them the legal 5 feet of clearance out of the roadway by
> riding on the white line or to the lane side of the white line. Forcing
> traffic to swerve around them to give them the clearance requires the
> passing car to use the oncoming lane. Someday one of these cyclists is
> going to be on the blind side of one of those hills and a car is going to
> have to decide between a head-on collision or hitting the cyclist. While
> the cyclist may be in the right as far as the clearance to be allowed,
> being right doesn't make up for somebody being dead.
>
>
>
>
> >Wilson
> >"henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> As a Cyclist and customer my thoughts and prayers to the both the
> >> cyclist and drivers families.
> >>
> >
>
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

Al, are you sure you are putting your comments in
the correct place in the thread? Don't know what
you are talking about since I only said that laws
can be different. What law? What attack?

Al wrote:
> In this state it is supposidly the law. Both act stupid unfortunately
> cyclists are no match for a car.
>
> It is never the less the law
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/security/bike_safety/
>
> as per the oregon state police. I do agree that auto drivers needs to be
> more aware and that there should be no cell phone use unless it is
> completely hands free. I don't make the laws I do however do my best to
> follow them. This was no attack on anyone and should not have been taken as
> such.
>
> Al
>
>
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Al wrote:
>>
>>>Oregon even has a manual for bicyclist:
>>>http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike_manual_06.pdf
>>
>>Lots of places have manuals for bicyclists. But state, county, and city
>>laws are often quite different. For example, within a city limits, the
>>rules for stopping at stop signs may be quite different from the State
>>rules for other roads. Finding those rules may be somewhat difficult and
>>most people that don't ride a bicycle don't have a clue about the city
>>rules or even know of such a thing. As a consequence there are always
>>people incorrectly stating what bicyclists can and can not do. Heck most
>>people don't even know or adhere to the pedestrian rules!
>
>
>

CW wrote:
> Simple fact: If a bicyclist wants to enjoy a long, healthy life, it would be
> wise for him to watch cars closely and to stay out of their way. Sure, the
> law says that they don't have to but, to avoid becoming a grease spot, they
> should. This thread has been amazingly free from the "we have the same
> rights" bicycle advocates. In any case, they can bitch and moan as much as
> they want, then die for their beliefs tomorrow.

Exactly right, that is why I quit riding. Most
bicyclist realize they are vulnerable and tend to
be much more careful than vehicle drivers who
think and know they are not vulnerable.

My comment was inspired by reading several posts
and said or implied that bicyclist have no rights.
And I bet they act that way. The worst
offenders seemed to me to be little car drivers
that would not move across the lane marker when
passing a bicycle and pickup truck drivers who
paid no attention to their West Coast mirrors and
apparently didn't care if the hit the cyclist.

I think a few well placed .45s would cure that
complex, but then a few well placed .45s would
cure a lot of bad attitudes.

>
>
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>"Mcfly" wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
>>>>have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
>>>>a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
>>>>rude to a bicyclist.
>>>
>>>
>>>As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ...
>
> then
>
>>>again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the
>
> road
>
>>>rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
>>>auto/cyclist issues.
>>>
>>> ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign
>
> on
>
>>>a residential street?
>>>
>>
>>Not directed specifically at you Swingman.
>>This subject is a good opportunity for every jerk
>>on either side of the bicycle question to express
>>anger, stupidity, and ignorance.
>>
>>I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
>>states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
>>rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
>>laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
>>car and do not require bicycles to come to
>>complete stops at every stop sign.
>>
>>I quit riding a bicycle on major streets many
>>years ago when I finally decided that I need to
>>ride with a pistol that could be reached and used
>>fast. Instead of wearing a pistol, and probably
>>being in jail at this time, I decide to quit
>>riding. Some bicycle riders are a hazard and are
>>definite jerks. OTOH, the majority of vehicle
>>drivers are so poor in knowledge and action that I
>>am continuously amazed that every 5th car on the
>>road isn't completely wrecked from numerous crashes.
>
>
>

In this state it is supposidly the law. Both act stupid unfortunately
cyclists are no match for a car.

It is never the less the law
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/security/bike_safety/

as per the oregon state police. I do agree that auto drivers needs to be
more aware and that there should be no cell phone use unless it is
completely hands free. I don't make the laws I do however do my best to
follow them. This was no attack on anyone and should not have been taken as
such.

Al


"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Al wrote:
>> Oregon even has a manual for bicyclist:
>> http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike_manual_06.pdf
> Lots of places have manuals for bicyclists. But state, county, and city
> laws are often quite different. For example, within a city limits, the
> rules for stopping at stop signs may be quite different from the State
> rules for other roads. Finding those rules may be somewhat difficult and
> most people that don't ride a bicycle don't have a clue about the city
> rules or even know of such a thing. As a consequence there are always
> people incorrectly stating what bicyclists can and can not do. Heck most
> people don't even know or adhere to the pedestrian rules!

Same problem here Al, you aren't following the
thread. CW was just responding to my comment
about people not even knowing the rules for
pedestrian. Are you responding to an earlier
comment of CW. If so respond to that comment not a
later comment or no one can follow you.

Al wrote:
> Why the anger? Why are you on the attack? I don't care how many people
> don't exercise that has nothing to do with what was said. I mearly pointed
> out a the law. To be honest I had someone read it before I posted it so no
> one would take it as a attack and low and behold you did. walking to a
> building from a parking lot has nothing to do with obeying the law. I think
> it's great to exercise if that is what you want but it like holding an
> umbrella to cover your head when the building is falling on you. The
> cyclist would be safer if he followed the law and stopped and
> signalled.average car 2k lbs cyclist 100lbs to 250lbs. I am no physics
> major but the 2k will win. So hopefully both will follow the law and be
> aware of their surroundings.
>
> In this state it is supposidly the law. Both act stupid unfortunately
> cyclists are no match for a car.
>
> It is never the less the law
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/security/bike_safety/
>
> as per the oregon state police. I do agree that auto drivers needs to be
> more aware and that there should be no cell phone use unless it is
> completely hands free. I don't make the laws I do however do my best to
> follow them. This was no attack on anyone and should not have been taken as
> such.
>
> Al
>
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>How many will get their fat as#es out of a car and walk? How often do you
>>see someone circle a parking lot several times to avoid having to walk an
>>extra fifty feet.
>>"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Heck most people don't even know or
>>>adhere to the pedestrian rules!
>>
>>
>
>

Al wrote:
> Oregon even has a manual for bicyclist:
> http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike_manual_06.pdf
>
>
Lots of places have manuals for bicyclists. But
state, county, and city laws are often quite
different. For example, within a city limits, the
rules for stopping at stop signs may be quite
different from the State rules for other roads.
Finding those rules may be somewhat difficult and
most people that don't ride a bicycle don't have a
clue about the city rules or even know of such a
thing. As a consequence there are always people
incorrectly stating what bicyclists can and can
not do. Heck most people don't even know or
adhere to the pedestrian rules!

On Fri, 19 May 2006 06:59:01 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>: Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
>: I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
>: dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
>: right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the
>: left, often violating lane markers to allow the cyclists their state-given
>: 5 feet of clearance.
>
>
>I live in the same city you do, Mark, and I have seen this sort
>of behavior by cyclists maybe five times in 17 years.
>

Drive up to Continental Ranch early on any Saturday or Sunday morning. It
is the norm rather than the exception. The most egregious offenders are
those most nattily dressed as bicyclists vs. someone in cutoffs and
t-shirt.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On 2006-05-19, B A R R Y <[email protected]> ranted thusly:

> I was just hoping that we could take a moment for those involved, rather
> than argue about fault share comments about random idiots.

This is the natural progression of thoughts moving from loss to
questioning the apparent injustice of the suddenness of it.

No one wants it to happen, and we all are moved to think that with just
a little more care we could all be free of loss.

And maybe just a little bit clumsy about it. :)

er
--
email not valid

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

: Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
: I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
: dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
: right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the
: left, often violating lane markers to allow the cyclists their state-given
: 5 feet of clearance.


I live in the same city you do, Mark, and I have seen this sort
of behavior by cyclists maybe five times in 17 years.


-- Andy Barss

Swingman wrote:
> "Mcfly" wrote in message
>
>
>>I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
>>have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
>>a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
>>rude to a bicyclist.
>
>
> As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ... then
> again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the road
> rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
> auto/cyclist issues.
>
> ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign on
> a residential street?
>

Not directed specifically at you Swingman.
This subject is a good opportunity for every jerk
on either side of the bicycle question to express
anger, stupidity, and ignorance.

I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
car and do not require bicycles to come to
complete stops at every stop sign.

I quit riding a bicycle on major streets many
years ago when I finally decided that I need to
ride with a pistol that could be reached and used
fast. Instead of wearing a pistol, and probably
being in jail at this time, I decide to quit
riding. Some bicycle riders are a hazard and are
definite jerks. OTOH, the majority of vehicle
drivers are so poor in knowledge and action that I
am continuously amazed that every 5th car on the
road isn't completely wrecked from numerous crashes.

Leuf wrote:
> On Sat, 20 May 2006 00:02:21 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
>>states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
>>rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
>>laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
>>car and do not require bicycles to come to
>>complete stops at every stop sign.
>
>
> When I was in 6th grade one day I was getting off the school bus in
> front of my house just like every other day. As I was crossing the
> street I was probably thinking things like should I get the math
> homework out of the way first, or fool around until dinner. The next
> thing I knew I was on the ground about 10 feet back and to the right
> of the last I remembered.
>
> Lacking any other explanation I assumed I had tripped. How do you
> trip in the middle of the street I wondered. How embarassing.
> Everyone is leaning out of the bus staring at me, how am I gonna live
> this one down. I was endeavoring to get my ass into the house as
> quickly yet nonchalantly as possible, but it was difficult as
> everything was spinning.
>
> You know that feeling you have when you cut yourself and it doesn't
> hurt yet, but you know it's going to? I suppose I had that feeling as
> my hand went up to my face sort of on its own. After looking at the
> blood on my fingers for a second or two I gave up on the nonchalant
> approach and bolted for Mommy.
>
> As it turns out what actually happened was someone on a bike decided
> they would go around the bus with its stop sign and flashing red
> lights into the opposing lane to pass it. His shoulder got me square
> in the mouth. I consider myself lucky to have only lost a couple
> teeth from it. I don't have any memory of the collision and I was so
> disoriented after I never saw him at the side of the road with his
> busted up bike and shoulder. I do however quite clearly remember
> standing in front of the bathroom mirror staring at my face still
> waiting for it to start hurting while my mom was out in the street
> looking for my teeth.
>
> The point of my story is not that cyclists are the problem. Motorists
> are not the problem. Stupid people are the problem. As a society we
> haven't yet gotten the balls to say "I'm sorry, you're a moron. You
> can't use the roads." We'd take care of the whole 'energy crisis' and
> put a dent in health care costs in one fell swoop.
>
> Stop signs are there for the stupid people that can't figure out that
> stopping there would be a good idea. The problem is that stupid
> people are not able to determine that they are stupid and that the
> signs are for them. So let's just stop at the fucking sign, okay?
>
>
> -Leuf
Yep, absolutely true. But isn't it ironic that
the rules are for stupid people that can't figure
out the rules and for people that refuse to follow
rules. If people stopped at all the stop signs,
stop signals, cross walks and other required
stoping places and if everyone signaled for every
turn and every lane change, there would be far
fewer accidents. A 30 second simulated driving
test (computer type) would weed out a lot of poor
driver ans the little old ladies that can't move
their feet off the gas pedal. Most recent of the
latter near me was about 2 weeks ago and about 1/4
mile from my house. Drove right into the store
window.

Why the anger? Why are you on the attack? I don't care how many people
don't exercise that has nothing to do with what was said. I mearly pointed
out a the law. To be honest I had someone read it before I posted it so no
one would take it as a attack and low and behold you did. walking to a
building from a parking lot has nothing to do with obeying the law. I think
it's great to exercise if that is what you want but it like holding an
umbrella to cover your head when the building is falling on you. The
cyclist would be safer if he followed the law and stopped and
signalled.average car 2k lbs cyclist 100lbs to 250lbs. I am no physics
major but the 2k will win. So hopefully both will follow the law and be
aware of their surroundings.

In this state it is supposidly the law. Both act stupid unfortunately
cyclists are no match for a car.

It is never the less the law
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/security/bike_safety/

as per the oregon state police. I do agree that auto drivers needs to be
more aware and that there should be no cell phone use unless it is
completely hands free. I don't make the laws I do however do my best to
follow them. This was no attack on anyone and should not have been taken as
such.

Al


"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How many will get their fat as#es out of a car and walk? How often do you
> see someone circle a parking lot several times to avoid having to walk an
> extra fifty feet.
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Heck most people don't even know or
>> adhere to the pedestrian rules!
>
>

Mike Marlow wrote:
> I have no sympathy
> for bike riders who complain about cars on the road - it is after all a
> road, and most times by far, it's the bike rider that causes the problems.

Sympathy? Where do you get your stats? It sounds like the cyclist is
causing the problem, because you don't know the rules of the road!

Did any of YOU know that a bicycle has full rights to a public road
(except marked limited access interstate highways and certain placarded
parkways), as in the same as a motor vehicle, in ALL 50 states?

That's right, they can, and in many cases, need to be in the travel
lane. In fact the PROPER, LEGAL, and often RECOMMENDED by the DOT, way
to turn left in most states is for the cyclist to move to the left side
of the lane, near the yellow line, signal, and turn left. If it's a
road with multiple travel lanes, the cycle needs to be in the proper
lane for turning. The DOT even has a name for it, it's called "taking
the lane".

Most states allow a bicycle to be legally operated as a vehicle (inside
the travel lane), OR a pedestrian (outside the travel lane, on sidewalks
or crosswalks), at the cyclist's discretion. The bicycle is expected to
follow the rules and responsibilities of the chosen mode of operation,
and receives all rights accorded to other users of the same mode.

In most every case a bicycle is legally the same as an Amish horse-drawn
buggy, farm tractor, or any other slow-moving vehicle. The laws are
usually worded something like "the bicyclist shall keep to the right _as
practical_" "As practical" can mean many different things, depending
upon conditions of the surface, speeds, etc...

I've had occasions where I'm in the center of a lane, because _I_ am
going 45 MPH down a hill in a 45 MPH zone, and had some mullet head
tailgate me. Read that again... I was doing the POSTED SPEED LIMIT.
At the speed limit, there's no reason for me to be on the shoulder, and
it's unsafe for me to be on the shoulder, in the loose stuff and debris.
_I_ ride as courteously as legally as possible (I try to drive, walk,
and fly that way too... <G>), but folks who think I'm supposed to stay
on the sidewalk when I'm using my bicycle AS TRANSPORTATION really get
my dander up.

I started this thread only because some folks here might have crossed
paths with the driver and/or his company, some of us are cyclists who
could take a moment to remember a fallen brother, and others might just
take a moment to think. Not to place fault, since even the on-scene
witnesses and accident investigators haven't done so.

Unfortunately, it had to turn into a demonstration of traffic law
ignorance.

As a former bicyclist, I think blame can be passed around equally. On the
one hand, most drivers are only about 50% aware when they're behind the
wheel, and the use of cell phones drops that number precipitously. To a lot
of drivers, MOTORCYCLES are almost invisible, what can a bicyclist expect?
Additionally, drivers are seldom held liable for killing and/or maiming
cyclists--they may go to trial, but they're rarely convicted of anything but
a minor offense.

On the other hand, cyclists don't do much to endear themselves to motorists.
They often ignore stop signs and traffic lights, they often ride two and
three abreast on the road, and they weave through traffic halted at an
intersection, then cruise through the light as if it isn't there.

So, you've got a bunch of motorists who are driving around partailly
distarcted a large portion of the time, and a bunch of cyclists (not all)
who seem to go out of thier way just to piss the motorists off.

Like sombody around here says, "If you're gonna be stupid, you'd better be
tough."

BruceT


"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CW wrote:
>> Simple fact: If a bicyclist wants to enjoy a long, healthy life, it would
>> be
>> wise for him to watch cars closely and to stay out of their way. Sure,
>> the
>> law says that they don't have to but, to avoid becoming a grease spot,
>> they
>> should. This thread has been amazingly free from the "we have the same
>> rights" bicycle advocates. In any case, they can bitch and moan as much
>> as
>> they want, then die for their beliefs tomorrow.
>
> Exactly right, that is why I quit riding. Most bicyclist realize they are
> vulnerable and tend to be much more careful than vehicle drivers who think
> and know they are not vulnerable.
>
> My comment was inspired by reading several posts and said or implied that
> bicyclist have no rights. And I bet they act that way. The worst
> offenders seemed to me to be little car drivers that would not move
> across the lane marker when passing a bicycle and pickup truck drivers
> who paid no attention to their West Coast mirrors and apparently didn't
> care if the hit the cyclist.
>
> I think a few well placed .45s would cure that complex, but then a few
> well placed .45s would cure a lot of bad attitudes.
>
>>
>>
>> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Mcfly" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
>>>>>have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
>>>>>a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
>>>>>rude to a bicyclist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ...
>>
>> then
>>
>>>>again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the
>>
>> road
>>
>>>>rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
>>>>auto/cyclist issues.
>>>>
>>>> ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign
>>
>> on
>>
>>>>a residential street?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Not directed specifically at you Swingman.
>>>This subject is a good opportunity for every jerk
>>>on either side of the bicycle question to express
>>>anger, stupidity, and ignorance.
>>>
>>>I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
>>>states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
>>>rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
>>>laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
>>>car and do not require bicycles to come to
>>>complete stops at every stop sign.
>>>
>>>I quit riding a bicycle on major streets many
>>>years ago when I finally decided that I need to
>>>ride with a pistol that could be reached and used
>>>fast. Instead of wearing a pistol, and probably
>>>being in jail at this time, I decide to quit
>>>riding. Some bicycle riders are a hazard and are
>>>definite jerks. OTOH, the majority of vehicle
>>>drivers are so poor in knowledge and action that I
>>>am continuously amazed that every 5th car on the
>>>road isn't completely wrecked from numerous crashes.
>>
>>

On 2006-05-19, RicodJour <[email protected]> ranted thusly:
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:19:01 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >I'm sorry for them too.
>> >Please rethink urban cycling, suburban cycling too, for that matter.
>>
>> Good advice. Folks who like scooters, four-wheelers, or other
>> recreational vehicles don't get to use the public roadways.
>
> You seem to have skipped over the operative word - public.
>
> As far as the other stuff (pick one):
> It's a two way street.
> Live and let live.
> Can't we all just get along?

On my way to school one day (this was some time ago) I was riding my
bike on the two lane, one way road toward the hospital, on the right
side, and a little out from the edge because of the glass, various bits
of sharp crap, and the occasional car littering the edge of the road.
Doing otherwise would at least involve me swerving out into the lane
to avoid the parked cars and that's not a recommendable thing for the
cyclist.

I notice a whine behind me and look back to see the black fender of
a bmw nosing up dangerously close to my rear wheel just to the left.
I'm approaching the right angle (left) turn in the road, sprint and cut
it, then the car roars ahead (actually using the other lane!) to get to
the approaching stop sign ahead, but can't manage it in time.

I turn right, and I hear the roar again as the car jumps ahead, and
right in front of me moves over to the side and slams on the brakes.
Stops, then turns in to the parking lot on the side.

I'm stopped anyway, so I scratch my head, walk my bike over, and go ball
out the about middle aged Medical Doctor. His passenger friend defends
him, saying I'm hogging the road. I reminded him he just risked my life,
who is in some really lame oath (California doesn't use the Hippocratic
oath no more... too humble) sworn to protect it, and he rolled his eyes.

er
--
email not valid

Simple fact: If a bicyclist wants to enjoy a long, healthy life, it would be
wise for him to watch cars closely and to stay out of their way. Sure, the
law says that they don't have to but, to avoid becoming a grease spot, they
should. This thread has been amazingly free from the "we have the same
rights" bicycle advocates. In any case, they can bitch and moan as much as
they want, then die for their beliefs tomorrow.


"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
> > "Mcfly" wrote in message
> >
> >
> >>I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
> >>have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
> >>a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
> >>rude to a bicyclist.
> >
> >
> > As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ...
then
> > again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the
road
> > rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
> > auto/cyclist issues.
> >
> > ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign
on
> > a residential street?
> >
>
> Not directed specifically at you Swingman.
> This subject is a good opportunity for every jerk
> on either side of the bicycle question to express
> anger, stupidity, and ignorance.
>
> I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
> states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
> rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
> laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
> car and do not require bicycles to come to
> complete stops at every stop sign.
>
> I quit riding a bicycle on major streets many
> years ago when I finally decided that I need to
> ride with a pistol that could be reached and used
> fast. Instead of wearing a pistol, and probably
> being in jail at this time, I decide to quit
> riding. Some bicycle riders are a hazard and are
> definite jerks. OTOH, the majority of vehicle
> drivers are so poor in knowledge and action that I
> am continuously amazed that every 5th car on the
> road isn't completely wrecked from numerous crashes.

I'm sorry for them too.
Please rethink urban cycling, suburban cycling too, for that matter.
I like cycling, but the reality is that there are too many dumb,
thoughtless, and plain mean drivers for it to be generally practical these
days. I don't even ride my motorcycle any more because of the idiot driver
problem.
Our kids are not allowed on the road without an adult along either, and
that's only in the local, fairly sheltered environment.
Is it worth exposing yourself to tragedy to prove you are entitled to use
the roads?
The rude cyclists who intentionally interfere with traffic aren't helping
the situation either!
Wilson
"henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a Cyclist and customer my thoughts and prayers to the both the
> cyclist and drivers families.
>

"Mcfly" wrote in message

> I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you even
> have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
> a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
> rude to a bicyclist.

As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ... then
again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the road
rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
auto/cyclist issues.

... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop sign on
a residential street?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/6/06

Forgive me

Al


"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Same problem here Al, you aren't following the thread. CW was just
> responding to my comment about people not even knowing the rules for
> pedestrian. Are you responding to an earlier comment of CW. If so respond
> to that comment not a later comment or no one can follow you.
>
> Al wrote:
>> Why the anger? Why are you on the attack? I don't care how many people
>> don't exercise that has nothing to do with what was said. I mearly
>> pointed
>> out a the law. To be honest I had someone read it before I posted it so
>> no
>> one would take it as a attack and low and behold you did. walking to a
>> building from a parking lot has nothing to do with obeying the law. I
>> think
>> it's great to exercise if that is what you want but it like holding an
>> umbrella to cover your head when the building is falling on you. The
>> cyclist would be safer if he followed the law and stopped and
>> signalled.average car 2k lbs cyclist 100lbs to 250lbs. I am no physics
>> major but the 2k will win. So hopefully both will follow the law and be
>> aware of their surroundings.
>>
>> In this state it is supposidly the law. Both act stupid unfortunately
>> cyclists are no match for a car.
>>
>> It is never the less the law
>> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/security/bike_safety/
>>
>> as per the oregon state police. I do agree that auto drivers needs to be
>> more aware and that there should be no cell phone use unless it is
>> completely hands free. I don't make the laws I do however do my best to
>> follow them. This was no attack on anyone and should not have been taken
>> as
>> such.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>How many will get their fat as#es out of a car and walk? How often do you
>>>see someone circle a parking lot several times to avoid having to walk an
>>>extra fifty feet.
>>>"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> Heck most people don't even know or
>>>>adhere to the pedestrian rules!
>>>
>>>
>>

I understand what you say about being aware of cyclists. If we (motorist)
are supposed to be held liable for violating the rules of the road then to
should the cyclists since the law clearly states that they are to adhere to
the rules of the road as well. Not saying its right or wrong that a
motorist rarely gets convicted of anything but perhaps its because the law
recognizes that the cyclist was in clear violation of the law? There is a
reason when I drive I stay as far as I can away from the side of the road,
you never know when some idiot is going to pop out on foot, skateboard, or
bike. 20 years ago I hit a guy that ran out into the road from between two
cars without looking. He did not get hurt as I did stop but I am sure he
did learn a lesson since he did make contact with my Dodge PW pickup. I do
agree that motorist need to be more observant, how ever law enforcement
needs to hear that sucking sound of their ears clearing as the pull their
heads out and start to be fair about enforcing the rules/laws of the road.
This would save lives and make the cyclist aware that they are supposed to
obey the law to. A couple days ago I was in downtown Portland and had a
cyclists run a red light in front of me and a local cop. Did the cop do
anything even though it was a violation of the law? No! I would bet you
dollars to the cops doughnuts that if it were a car he would have went after
him and wrote a ticket.
There is a famous quote that law enforcement likes to use (if you ever watch
Cop's you've heard it) ignorance of the law is no excuse. I believe in
equal rights strongly and this is one of the areas I would like to see it
enforced. It would save lives if the people knew there would be a fine or
some kind of punishment for the cyclists (like there is supposed to be) as
well like the motorist would get. From my experience this is my opinion
such as it is.

Al




"Bruce T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a former bicyclist, I think blame can be passed around equally. On the
> one hand, most drivers are only about 50% aware when they're behind the
> wheel, and the use of cell phones drops that number precipitously. To a
> lot of drivers, MOTORCYCLES are almost invisible, what can a bicyclist
> expect? Additionally, drivers are seldom held liable for killing and/or
> maiming cyclists--they may go to trial, but they're rarely convicted of
> anything but a minor offense.
>
> On the other hand, cyclists don't do much to endear themselves to
> motorists. They often ignore stop signs and traffic lights, they often
> ride two and three abreast on the road, and they weave through traffic
> halted at an intersection, then cruise through the light as if it isn't
> there.
>
> So, you've got a bunch of motorists who are driving around partailly
> distarcted a large portion of the time, and a bunch of cyclists (not all)
> who seem to go out of thier way just to piss the motorists off.
>
> Like sombody around here says, "If you're gonna be stupid, you'd better be
> tough."
>
> BruceT
>
>
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> CW wrote:
>>> Simple fact: If a bicyclist wants to enjoy a long, healthy life, it
>>> would be
>>> wise for him to watch cars closely and to stay out of their way. Sure,
>>> the
>>> law says that they don't have to



The law does say they have to. If you are on a road on a bike, motorcycle,
car, truck, etc... you have to adhere to the rules of the road. You may not
have to be licensed to ride a bike but you are supposed to signal and obey
traffic signs just as a motorized vehicle.


If you think I am wrong then go here:
http://www.state.nh.us/hsafety/hsbicyc.html



but, to avoid becoming a grease spot,
>>> they
>>> should. This thread has been amazingly free from the "we have the same
>>> rights" bicycle advocates. In any case, they can bitch and moan as much
>>> as
>>> they want, then die for their beliefs tomorrow.
>>
>> Exactly right, that is why I quit riding. Most bicyclist realize they
>> are vulnerable and tend to be much more careful than vehicle drivers who
>> think and know they are not vulnerable.
>>
>> My comment was inspired by reading several posts and said or implied that
>> bicyclist have no rights. And I bet they act that way. The worst
>> offenders seemed to me to be little car drivers that would not move
>> across the lane marker when passing a bicycle and pickup truck drivers
>> who paid no attention to their West Coast mirrors and apparently didn't
>> care if the hit the cyclist.
>>
>> I think a few well placed .45s would cure that complex, but then a few
>> well placed .45s would cure a lot of bad attitudes.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>Swingman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Mcfly" wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm curious. As someone who obviously doesn't bike, when would you
>>>>>>even
>>>>>>have the opportunity to see rudeness of motor vehicles to bicycles? As
>>>>>>a motor vehicle driver, I admit I've never seen anyone in a car being
>>>>>>rude to a bicyclist.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As a sporadic cyclist, I see it down here in Houston all the time ...
>>>
>>> then
>>>
>>>>>again, if drivers were thrown in jail for the complete disregard of the
>>>
>>> road
>>>
>>>>>rules that most cyclist seem to get away with, there would be no
>>>>>auto/cyclist issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... when is the last time you saw someone on a bicycle obey a stop
>>>>> sign
>>>
>>> on
>>>
>>>>>a residential street?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Not directed specifically at you Swingman.
>>>>This subject is a good opportunity for every jerk
>>>>on either side of the bicycle question to express
>>>>anger, stupidity, and ignorance.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the
>>>>states I have lived in, bicycles enjoy the same
>>>>rights as motor vehicles. In many places traffic
>>>>laws recognize that a bicycle is different from a
>>>>car and do not require bicycles to come to
>>>>complete stops at every stop sign.
>>>>
>>>>I quit riding a bicycle on major streets many
>>>>years ago when I finally decided that I need to
>>>>ride with a pistol that could be reached and used
>>>>fast. Instead of wearing a pistol, and probably
>>>>being in jail at this time, I decide to quit
>>>>riding. Some bicycle riders are a hazard and are
>>>>definite jerks. OTOH, the majority of vehicle
>>>>drivers are so poor in knowledge and action that I
>>>>am continuously amazed that every 5th car on the
>>>>road isn't completely wrecked from numerous crashes.
>>>
>>>
>

>> Certainly there are rude drivers, but most of the rudeness and arrogance
>> I've seen has been on the other side. Even when they are given a wide,
>> dedicated bicycle lane, these lugnuts insist on riding in the bike lane
>> right *on* the white line next to traffic, forcing traffic to move to the

Sometimes the "bike lane" has so much ruts, grit and gravel that one
can have the bike slide underneath them sideways, throwing them into
the traffic lane.

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"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Most recent of the
> latter near me was about 2 weeks ago and about 1/4 mile from my house.
> Drove right into the store window.

Obviously, there wasn't a stop sign in front of the store window. Sue the
local government and store owner.