Just Curious. Questions....

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:44:50 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > Are you looking for the muted grain and patterning that oil gives when=
applied first?=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Wanting the grain and pattern/figuring to be enhanced, which has happened=
on > this trestle board. I expect to get the same results on the table to=
p boards > and I'm supposing in a month I'll oil these. I'll apply topcoat=
s sometime > later.

We know that every piece of wood is different, yet similar. That lets us d=
evelop techniques that work across the board, sometimes with varying succes=
s. So, I will click out my ideas as a finisher, and you can take them for =
they are worth to you.

First, I never use oil as a grain enhancer. Since it doesn't completely cu=
re hard, you can foul a subsequent finish. Standards of manufacturing are =
all over the place and each manufacturer's BLO acts differently. The metal=
lic driers in the oil do not go away; they stay in the oil, and if the oil =
is sufficiently dried they can leak into your top coat.

Second, oil has a tendency to muddy the appearance, not enhance it. Sure, =
it darkens the wood and harder areas absorb less oil immediately, and less =
dense areas absorb more. Looks good. But then as the oil with its tiny mole=
cules works into the wood, it becomes much more homogenous in appearance. =
And a lot of oil can actually obscure the grain, turning it into a muddy lo=
oking affair. Then when you add your top coat, it muddies it up more, unti=
l walnut can become nearly black or brown, with little grain showing. If I=
pay money for a nice piece of wood, them I am going to see the grain!

Remember too, that if you put an oil based finish on this table and its par=
ts, the top coat will amber over time as well. Since you are probably look=
ing to NEVER refinish this, that should be a consideration. Think of the T=
V shows or demos (or maybe our own personal experience) where folks pull of=
f finish on an old piece that looked kind of good, only to find just how in=
visible the grain and nuances of the wood itself were. It's the finish cha=
nging color (ambering) as well as its normal breaking down over a period of=
time. I know, other factors as well, but when I have refinished pieces tha=
t were simply clear coated and not fouled by waxes, cleaners, polishes, etc=
., the finishes still yellowed and changed color a lot over time.

So, what to do? If it were me, I wouldn't hesitate. Down to the supplier =
I would go and buy Zinsser's sanding sealer and have a go with a good, thic=
k coat. Four reasons this would work for me. =20

First, it WILL enhance the grain and make it pop. It will not muddy the gr=
ain patterns in any way.

Second, it will seal the wood and help stop (not 100% stop)the damage done =
by further drying. Without drilled holes and a moisture meter, it is diffi=
cult to know just how dry your wood is... and the moisture only goes one wa=
y, even if sealed. And that is out, out through your finish if need be. Sh=
ellac is permeable enough to let this happen, but tenacious enough to not b=
e damaged unless the wood is really wet.

Third, it will dry quickly, leaving an easily sanded base that you can sand=
to your heart's desire, and if needed, easily re-seal and sand some more. =
It won't degrade a bit over several months, so if this project gets "pushe=
d" then it will be OK as is, an you can pick it up as needed.

Fourth, the resultant sanded finish is compatible with <<any>> finish I can=
think of, including many of the waterborne finishes. Not the waterborne c=
rap at the big box, but the good stuff like Sherwin Williams, ML Cambell, e=
tc. It is compatible with all oil based finishes.

So in essence you have sealed, enhance, protected, and primed all in one sh=
ot. Not bad.

As far as top coats, I don't know why you would use a floor coating. Their=
high resin content makes wood look plasticky to me, and I don't like the f=
inal thickness. I still want my table tops to look like furniture of some =
sort, or I would just buy the plastic resins used on bar tops and be done w=
ith it.

Don't shoot a finish on a surface this large unless you are well versed in =
the product and its nuances. Mike Marlow can attest to this; in this case,=
your project isn't the place to learn finishing technique. I know Mike sp=
rays a lot of high performance finishes, and I have shot my share. With a =
lacquer base finish or any other "hot" or even kind of "hot" finish, you wi=
ll get witness lines you cannot chase away with sanding, more coats of fini=
sh, etc.

This is what I have done and it works for me. Cuts down on the mess, the n=
eed for a spray booth, etc. On large flat surfaces I pick a polyurethane "=
long oil" finish and apply it with a pad. I wish I had taken some pics of =
the last table I finished this way. I sanded the wood to naked, and applie=
d a coat of poly as the primer. No shellac was needed as this was a refini=
sh of a country style dining/kitchen table with a 2" thick hard maple top a=
nd 6" round spindle legs. I sanded the crap out of the legs and primed the=
n with BIN the shot white on the legs with the top off. Although the top h=
ad been refinished, it was no match for stripper and 120 grit to 220 grit s=
anding. =20

Applied a second coat with a pad as per can instructions, and applied a thi=
rd coat after calling the manufacturer to help with timing. All applied wi=
th a pad, and since the dry time was something like 8 hours, all signs of t=
he applicator were long gone when it dried. With disposable pads, I simply=
tossed the pad after using it. It looks like glass, (OK, satin glass)and i=
s as smooth as a well sprayed finish. The finish has worn like iron over ab=
out 6 years now, and sees a lot of use as a dining table, holiday staging t=
able, a craft table, a play table for the kiddos, etc., so it isn't a decor=
ation piece by any means.

The fine grained texture of the rock hard maple still shows through on the =
top, and I consider that the second most important part with wear resistanc=
e being the first. After all, if long term appearance wasn't important I w=
ould just paint.

Hope some of this helps out.

Robert =20

Finishing with BLO is just like cooking brisket (Texan, here... thinking ab=
out the upcoming Labor BBQ!). It's done when it's done. No hard fast rule=
s. Even though BLO isn't really anything more than seed oil with metallic =
dryers, it still isn't all that predictable. When it goes into cracks and =
crevices, it congeals more than it dries or hardens. =20

Although oil finishes are quite popular, they aren't my first choice. Smal=
l holes filled with BLO can foul your next steps of finishing.

So before we all launch into diatribes of expert advice, follow up a bit mo=
re with your processes. =20

What are you trying to achieve in your finish? Are you looking to seal now =
and put a top coat on later? Are you trying to put something on the wood t=
o help retard face checking and cracking? Why did you choose oil? Is oil =
your choice for the table top as well? Are you looking for the muted grain =
and patterning that oil gives when applied first? How soon are you plannin=
g on final coating?

Just as important... isn't that wood still pretty green?

Robert

"dadiOH" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Took 3 days to sand the treste board. Live edges, with small bug/larvae
> holes (pencil lead size) near the edges and a few other small defect-like
> holes/blemishes, elsewhere. I applied BLO, wiped off the excess. In the
> holes, the BLO couldn't be wiped off, but there was no puddling. It
> seemed to have soaked in, well.
>
> The wiped areas will dry quick, compared to inside the holes.
>
> How long might it take for the BLO, in the holes, to dry, before I could
> continue with the finishing? I'm supposing at least a week.
>
> The tabletop boards have similar small holes, as the trestle board.
>
> There are larger larvae holes (1/4" - 3/8" diameter) in the leg units and
> these will be soaked with BLO, when I do them (not anytime soon). I
> suppose these larger (deeper?) holes may take longer to dry, than that of
> the trestle board's small holes. How much dry time might these larger
> (deeper?) holes require.... an additional week or two?.... Longer?...
> Hard to say!

I'm guessing a month, maybe more. My can of linsed oil always has drips
around the spout...takes a long time to cure but I've never timed it. You
could make holes of various sizes in something, fill'em up and see how
long. When the oil turns dark brown, it is cured.

And as nailshooter said, it never really hardens - not hard like varnish -
but cures to a rather rubbery mass.

--

dadiOH

Wife uses 1 part BLO, 1 part Vinegar, and 1 part mineral sprits. Used on an
oak antique table in 1972. We have used this table daily since then. Getting
ready two redo it again. WW
____________________________

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Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:44:50 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> Are you looking for the muted grain and patterning that oil gives when a=
pplied first?=20

Wanting the grain and pattern/figuring to be enhanced, which has happened o=
n this trestle board. I expect to get the same results on the table top bo=
ards and I'm supposing in a month I'll oil these. I'll apply topcoats some=
time later. All of these boards had been air drying since Nov 2012. There =
were 2 trees downed in Oct 2012, milled in Nov 2012. The rootballs remaine=
d on site, until this past May. =20

> Just as important... isn't that wood still pretty green?=20

The slabs for the legs (rootball stock) are still wet/green. I won't do a=
ny kind of finishing on these for 2+ years. I do plan to oil these, also, =
before topcoating.

I haven't decided what I'll use for topcoating. I may apply Varathane (flo=
or finish). Most of my furniture spraying is with lacquer. I don't think=
lacquer is best for a dining table top. I'm not the greatest finish spray=
er, either.... I still have problems with overspray and drips, mostly on i=
nside corners and other tight interior spaces, but this project doesn't pre=
sent any of those problem areas.

One of the reasons why I'm partially finishing one piece/board, at a time, =
is, the pieces are big/long and heavy. I don't have the space in the shop =
to work on and store all the pieces, in the shop's main working area. I ha=
ve other projects, on going, and need the work area space. Also, there's t=
he issue of keeping things relatively clean. The oiled trestle and table t=
op boards will be stored elsewhere, until I can finish (spray) all of them =
at the same time. I don't have a dedicated spray booth, so I'll have to ma=
ke a temp one, at spray time. =20

*Another problem, recently: I bought mobile bases for the saws. One saw's =
side table/legs is disassembled, for adjusting/refitting the legs onto the =
mobile base, and this stuff is kind of scattered about. The saw, etal, is =
disfunctional and taking up space, also. My shop is in more disarray, righ=
t now, than in its usual disarray, and working on projects is more fun than=
fixing the disarray. Trying to do work on these large pieces and other pr=
ojects has been, somewhat, disorganized, lately.

Sonny

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:56:05 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:

Sonny, take a piece of your walnut, and put oil on it the same way and in t=
he same amount you did your table pieces. Put shellac on another piece (or=
for more dramatic effect, the same piece taped off to have two distinct si=
des) and compare them in about 10 days. You will see my point.
=20
> Sealcoat, right? I do use Sealcoat, often. *I have never used the term=
"sanding sealer" to describe Sealcoat, though I am aware it is a sealer.

Seal coat can be many things, so I specified what I have used. Seal coat (=
as well as sanding sealer) can be lacquer based, and even vinyl based. I f=
ind that the more specific one can be the more helpful it is.=20

=20
> Again, thanks very much, Robert. I'm always appreciative to be corrected=
, as this.

Many of my lessons learned are from what I have experienced when out in the=
shop/lab/on the job, and there isn't any reason for someone else to take t=
he time to learn it that way. Besides, I would hate to think that you did =
all that nice work on your project and then in the end didn't like the way =
it turned out because of the finish. Besides, even though a process works =
for me, that doesn't mean it will suit your preference or requirements.

(Personally, I would have a good talking to anyone that advocates putting B=
LO on as a first coat for anything that resembles professional/fine finishi=
ng...)

It is my pleasure to help. Please don't think of sharing knowledge and exp=
erience as being "corrected". This is in my wheel house, and I don't mind =
a bit.

Robert

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:54:04 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> Hope some of this helps out.

All of it is very helpful and thanks for the detrailed write-up. I had alw=
ays assumed an oil coating, first, enhances the grain and the figuring, of =
wood as this. I'm glad I asked, at this stage of the project, despite what=
I thought was good finish jobs on my past walnut projects.

> I wouldn't hesitate. Down to the supplier I would go and buy Zinsser's sa=
nding sealer and have a go with a good, thick coat.=20

Sealcoat, right? I do use Sealcoat, often. *I have never used the term "=
sanding sealer" to describe Sealcoat, though I am aware it is a sealer.

Again, thanks very much, Robert. I'm always appreciative to be corrected, =
as this.

Sonny

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:41:06 PM UTC-5, Larry Blanchard wrote:

> Agreed, but one caveat. Shellac is easily damaged by heat. I've
>
> generated enough heat by sanding to get little dots of melted shellac on
>
> my sandpaper. The longer you wait before sanding the better. As a
>
> friend said "Shellac never stops getting harder."

All to true!

Just as a thought Larry, if you aren't using non-stearated sand paper, give it a whirl next time you sand a soft resins like shellac or poly. It makes a world of difference if you haven't tried it.

Robert

"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Took 3 days to sand the treste board. Live edges, with small bug/larvae
> holes (pencil lead size) near the edges and a few other small
> defect-like
> holes/blemishes, elsewhere. I applied BLO, wiped off the excess. In
> the
> holes, the BLO couldn't be wiped off, but there was no puddling. It
> seemed to have soaked in, well.
>
> The wiped areas will dry quick, compared to inside the holes.
>
> How long might it take for the BLO, in the holes, to dry, before I could
> continue with the finishing? I'm supposing at least a week.
>
> The tabletop boards have similar small holes, as the trestle board.
>
> There are larger larvae holes (1/4" - 3/8" diameter) in the leg units
> and
> these will be soaked with BLO, when I do them (not anytime soon). I
> suppose these larger (deeper?) holes may take longer to dry, than that
> of
> the trestle board's small holes. How much dry time might these larger
> (deeper?) holes require.... an additional week or two?.... Longer?...
> Hard to say!

I'm guessing a month, maybe more. My can of linsed oil always has drips
around the spout...takes a long time to cure but I've never timed it. You
could make holes of various sizes in something, fill'em up and see how
long. When the oil turns dark brown, it is cured.

And as nailshooter said, it never really hardens - not hard like varnish -
but cures to a rather rubbery mass.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:54:04 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

> First, it WILL enhance the grain and make it pop. It will not muddy the
> grain patterns in any way.
>
I use a lot of shellac. SealCoat if I'm lazy, flakes if I'm not or
looking for a particular color. Old joke, "Whatever the finishing
question, the answer is shellac."


> Second, it will seal the wood and help stop (not 100% stop)the damage
> done by further drying. Without drilled holes and a moisture meter, it
> is difficult to know just how dry your wood is... and the moisture only
> goes one way, even if sealed. And that is out, out through your finish
> if need be. Shellac is permeable enough to let this happen, but
> tenacious enough to not be damaged unless the wood is really wet.
>

You lost me here. Moisture goes both ways, in or out, until the wood
reaches equilibrium with its environment. Secondly, the only finish less
permeable than shellac is poly, and that not by much.

> Third, it will dry quickly, leaving an easily sanded base that you can
> sand to your heart's desire, and if needed, easily re-seal and sand some
> more. It won't degrade a bit over several months, so if this project
> gets "pushed" then it will be OK as is, an you can pick it up as needed.

Agreed, but one caveat. Shellac is easily damaged by heat. I've
generated enough heat by sanding to get little dots of melted shellac on
my sandpaper. The longer you wait before sanding the better. As a
friend said "Shellac never stops getting harder."

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:53:42 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

> Just as a thought Larry, if you aren't using non-stearated sand paper,
> give it a whirl next time you sand a soft resins like shellac or poly.
> It makes a world of difference if you haven't tried it.

Hmmm - I don't know which I have - I'll take a look. Thanks.