OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
with it for $399 (gloat?)
The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
need it?
Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> And I doubt that you will hear of one caused by rust through. Failure
> of a pressure relief valve along with simultaneous failure of a
> pressure shut off valve could cause overpressurization to the point of
> catastrophic failure in a tank in good condition. Rust through will
> weaken a tank wall to the point that pinhole leaks will develop at the
> weakest points. Those pinholes could grow due to the escaping airflow,
> but in doing so, would act as a pressure relief valve reducing the
> tank pressure. Catastrophic, shrapnel producing tank failure due to
> rust through is a very low probability occurrence.
>
> My opinion, unsupported by any indepth analysis, is that being brained
> by a meteorite is about as likely as being injured by a rust through
> failure of a shop compressor tank.
>
> And no, I'm not saying rust through failures don't occur and people
> have been hit by meteorites. I'm sure someone's second cousin thrice
> removed has a neighbor who knew someone who'd heard of about a
> pressure tank exploding due to rust through..
Water would tend to collect in the bottom of the tank first, and that's
where the rust would occur, right? So by the time the bottom of the tank
has rusted out, the sides and top of the tank would still be in good
shape. Should the right conditions occur, I think it more likely a
compressor tank act as a rocket and not a bomb.
Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Water would tend to collect in the bottom of the tank first, and
>> that's where the rust would occur, right?
>
> NO! Like a glass of ice water the water would collect on all cooler
> surfaces, basically every square inch of the interior surface of the
> tank. Compared to the very hot compressed air going into the tank, the
> tank is quite cool in contrast. Then as the moisture condensed more,
> it would run down to the bottom and collect, but the whole tank is
> going to be wet.
>
>
> So by the time the bottom of the tank
>> has rusted out, the sides and top of the tank would still be in good
>> shape.
>
> No, see above.
>
>
> Should the right conditions occur, I think it more likely a
>> compressor tank act as a rocket and not a bomb.
>
> No, Pin holes will develope all over the surface. I had an old 80
> gallon compressor, that I inherited, develope pin holes near the
> center of the sides of the tankfirst, none were at the bottom.
>
> The above is true if the compressor is use regularily. If you store
> it for years on end with water in side and bring up the pressure the
> bottom may fall out then.
>
>
Ah, I see there's more to the story than I had originally thought. Would
a light-use (that doesn't cycle often) compressor tend to act like the
stored tank?
Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
I have a 7.5 HP Ingersal-Rand system with an automatic drain. It
vents for 2 seconds every hour. Besides keeping the tank bone dry it
has the advantage of scaring the hell out of the cats if they are any
where near by.
On Fri, 08 May 2009 18:35:02 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
>> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>>
>> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>> need it?
>
>I installed one of the Harbor Freight "Automatic Compressor Drain Kit"
>on mine. It opens momentarily each time the compressor starts or stops.
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46960
On May 8, 9:50=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:44e602a3-c9a8-491d-acc4-8e9e3d3e224e@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On May 8, 6:35 am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I see no justification to subject the tank unnecessarily through
> inflation/deflation cycles.
> I'm reasonably certain that by 'draining' they mean the water from the
> bottom of the tank. Always a good habit.
> Buy a fitting which will allow you to attach a swaged line (think
> brake line from the auto parts store) and run it up along the side to
> the top of the tank where it is easily accessible. Install a ball
> valve (as per Leon) up there. If you want to get fancy, attach a small
> swan neck to the ball-valve so you can conveniently catch the water as
> it comes out.
>
> I have kicked around the idea of making the valve a bit more accessible b=
ut
> I think you are going to have to have a high volume release to persuade
> water to go up a line and out. =A0If you simply let the air trickle the w=
ater
> is probably not going to be completely drained once the bottom of the tan=
k
> is empty, I suspect that the vertical line would retain water.
The air pressure will push any water up the line at tank-pressure
until all the water is blown out. .
I kept a 10 HP Webster drained like that for 20 years.
The drain *is* at the bottom of the tank, the valve isn't.
If you use an automotive brake line, it will clear all the water out.
The vertical line will blow itself clear when you open the valve.
"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> .........running compressor is immeasurable.
>
> I can see this is another pointless discussion. Have a nice day.
>
> nb
I am certainly glad I did not have to paint you a picture. It has bee a
darn good day.
On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:10:25 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Mike wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
>>>> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
>>> ...
>>> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
>>> the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
>>>
>>> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
>>> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>>>
>>> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
>>> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
>>> couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
>>> events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
>>
>> Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their tools.
>>
>> Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or stack
>> some dead truck tires around it or something.
>
>The tank itself (particularly if it is ASME-rated; some of the no-name
>imports that aren't rated I might worry just a little about a weld
>failure) is pretty unlikely to be an issue.
>
>What I have seen that can be injurious if not lethal is the
>shock-induced fracture of larger plastic pipe used as reservoirs in a
>shop air system. It was cold (-20F outside, unheated shop building
>probably about 0F inside) and a tool fell from a wall hook and hit one
>of these. It scattered pieces around like that if got you in a tender
>spot could have done some damage.
>
>I abandoned the idea of plastic lines then and there for the barn. :)
>Altho I think a 1/2-3/4" distribution line wouldn't have sufficient
>material volume to be a major deal, I decided it wouldn't be a smart
>idea even if cheaper... :)
>
>That was ages ago long before I ran across the OSHA directives, etc., ...
What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap. The
fittings are at least as expensive as the tubing for an extensive
system.
> I drain mine periodically - if by "drain", you mean draining out the wate=
r
> from the tank. =A0Always at the beginning of a paint job, periodically wh=
en
> using my air tools. =A0I keep saying I'm going to install a sniffer syste=
m to
> blow it off every time it cycles, to prevent water build up, but so far I
> haven't done so. =A0As for simply draining the pressure off (if that's wh=
at
> you mean...), don't bother. =A0No point at all in doing that. =A0My compr=
essor
> stays charged 100% of the time.
>
I was referring to the pressure. The tank has a small drain valve at
the bottom - I'm guessing that I can just crack that open every day or
two to let out whatever condensation builds up. I just didn't know if
it was OK to leave the tank under pressure for a few days to a week
between uses.
On Fri, 8 May 2009 03:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
>with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
>The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>need it?
What do you mean by "drain"? If it's drain the condensate, yes, drain
it daily. If you mean depressurize, then no, leave it pressurized for
two reasons. First, it's simply a waste of energy to store it in the
tank, then, for no good reason throw it away. Second, there is more
fatigue damage to the metal tank from cyclic stresses than there is
from static stress, and the deeper the stress cycles, the greater the
damage.
IOW, it introduces more fatigue damage to the tank to go from 0 stress
to maximum operating stress back to 0 stress than to leave the tank
pressurized. Granted, the stress levels under normal pressures are
small enough that you aren't likely to see a significant difference in
tank life in either case. But, leaving the tank pressurized is less
damaging than cyclic pressurization/depressurization.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:24:18 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>recreational worrying
.
Never seen that term before, but it captures the concept beautifully!
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
An armed society is a polite society.
Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I firmly believe that draining the tank helps to slow rusting but more
>> importantly it maintains tank air capacity and helps to keep moisture out
>> of the air hose. A tank that has a 20 gallon capacity and has 4 gallons
>> of water in it will recycle 20% more often, or something like that.
>
> The only part of this that I think is a little off Leon, is the 4 gallons
> of water. I've gone for pretty long periods without draining my tank and
> have never drained more than about a quart out of it. That's after a lot
> of use, and a long time. I'm not sure you could ever reach that level of
> water in a tank since the condensation inside is constantly being blown
> out the hose as you use it.
You have a valid point. BUT, I live in Houston, it is humid here. I also
often hear my compressor cycle on every 2-3 minutes or so when I use a
compressor operated vacuum clamp when sanding drawer components and using
that clamp as a stop when attaching slide rails to the drawers. Basically I
hear it cycle on and off 40-50 times in a short morning. If I were to do
this in a production shop setting day after day the water level could get
that high if not drained daily. In a larger setting I have seen gangs of
120 gallon compressors that ran non stop, during the day, produce gallons of
water everyday day, the only time those 8 compressors were not running was
then they were turned off. Basically if the compressor runs a lot and you
don't drain the tank it will eventually contain a lot a water especially in
a humid environment. Personally I keep the drain slightly cracked open all
the time and let the condensation drip out onto a micro fiber towel. I turn
it off after use, draining all at once daily after each use created too big
of a mess. ;~)
On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:15:04 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>I know what they say but...
>
>The 80(?) gal compressor here is 40+ yr old and has been left
>pressurized/on 24/7 and hasn't been drained but a time or two in its
>lifetime (and would add a "maybe" to that estimate).
Have you ever consider the need to internally inspect the pressure
vessel?
--
On Mon, 18 May 2009 16:54:25 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>As story hungry as the media is I don't recall having ever heard of an air
>compressor exploding and I have worked around compresssors for my entire
>professional career.
And I doubt that you will hear of one caused by rust through. Failure
of a pressure relief valve along with simultaneous failure of a
pressure shut off valve could cause overpressurization to the point of
catastrophic failure in a tank in good condition. Rust through will
weaken a tank wall to the point that pinhole leaks will develop at the
weakest points. Those pinholes could grow due to the escaping airflow,
but in doing so, would act as a pressure relief valve reducing the
tank pressure. Catastrophic, shrapnel producing tank failure due to
rust through is a very low probability occurrence.
My opinion, unsupported by any indepth analysis, is that being brained
by a meteorite is about as likely as being injured by a rust through
failure of a shop compressor tank.
And no, I'm not saying rust through failures don't occur and people
have been hit by meteorites. I'm sure someone's second cousin thrice
removed has a neighbor who knew someone who'd heard of about a
pressure tank exploding due to rust through..
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Bingo. But if one is determined to be afraid of one's compressor then
> rather than agonizing over how it is going to explode and kill them one
> day
> they should take steps that allow it to explode with impunity and then
> stop
> worrying about it. Of course if they aren't happy unless they're worrying
> about something I guess a compressor is as good a target for recreational
> worrying as anything.
>
And it has the added benefit of distracting from the worry about static
charges in PVC piping on the dust collector, grain silos, etc.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On May 8, 6:35=A0am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I see no justification to subject the tank unnecessarily through
inflation/deflation cycles.
I'm reasonably certain that by 'draining' they mean the water from the
bottom of the tank. Always a good habit.
Buy a fitting which will allow you to attach a swaged line (think
brake line from the auto parts store) and run it up along the side to
the top of the tank where it is easily accessible. Install a ball
valve (as per Leon) up there. If you want to get fancy, attach a small
swan neck to the ball-valve so you can conveniently catch the water as
it comes out.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I firmly believe that draining the tank helps to slow rusting but more
> importantly it maintains tank air capacity and helps to keep moisture out
> of the air hose. A tank that has a 20 gallon capacity and has 4 gallons
> of water in it will recycle 20% more often, or something like that.
The only part of this that I think is a little off Leon, is the 4 gallons of
water. I've gone for pretty long periods without draining my tank and have
never drained more than about a quart out of it. That's after a lot of use,
and a long time. I'm not sure you could ever reach that level of water in a
tank since the condensation inside is constantly being blown out the hose as
you use it.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I drain mine periodically - if by "drain", you mean draining out the water
from the tank. Always at the beginning of a paint job, periodically when
using my air tools. I keep saying I'm going to install a sniffer system to
blow it off every time it cycles, to prevent water build up, but so far I
haven't done so. As for simply draining the pressure off (if that's what
you mean...), don't bother. No point at all in doing that. My compressor
stays charged 100% of the time.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
My tank remains under pressure all the time. I use it nearly every
day. I not only do woodwork and refinishing, but upholstery, also.
No need to drain the tank completely of air, just the condensation. I
would think the same would be in order for you, especially for a 60
gal tank. As Mike says, always drain before spraying finishes.
Otherwise, drain it often, at least weekly if you maintain the
pressure.
When I drain water, almost daily, I have a flag dangling near my tank
valve as a reminder to oil my air tools, also. This tool maintenance
has become as routine as the tank draining has.
Token: What I hate are the air leaks from the hose connections. Some
connections are worse than others, depending on the tool.
Sonny
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com.
>> ..
>>> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>>> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to
>>> part with it for $399 (gloat?)
>>>
>>> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>>> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>>> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>>> need it?
>>
>> I drain mine periodically - if by "drain", you mean draining out the
>> water from the tank. Always at the beginning of a paint job,
>> periodically when using my air tools. I keep saying I'm going to
>> install a sniffer system to blow it off every time it cycles, to
>> prevent water build up, but so far I haven't done so. As for simply
>> draining the pressure off (if that's what you mean...), don't bother.
>> No point at all in doing that. My compressor stays charged 100% of
>> the time.
>>
> Wouldn't that depend on usage? If I use my little pancake once a month
> it is a lot. I usually drain both water and air when finished.
>
If I did not use a compressor at all for months on end, I'd probably drain
the water out after each use. I wouldn't drain the air pressure off after
each use though.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Thu, 14 May 2009 16:12:14 -0500, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I'm thinking that a
>compressor is always wet on the bottom whether or not you drain it. What
>do you think?
I'm thinking you're right. And the reason I think so is that the
relative humidity (RH) inside a tank charged to 135 PSIG (factory
shutoff setting on my compressor) will be about 10 times greater than
the ambient RH. So anytime the compressor runs when the RH is
somewhere above 10% you're going to get condensation inside the tank
by the time the 135 PSIG (~150PSIA) shutoff pressure is reached.
If the shutoff pressure is below 135 PSIG, then the ambient RH
necessary to cause condensation inside the tank is correspondingly
higher.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
An armed society is a polite society.
Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> Ah, I see there's more to the story than I had originally thought. Would
> a light-use (that doesn't cycle often) compressor tend to act like the
> stored tank?
I was referring 10-20+ years with water stored inside. If it simply sat the
condensation would eventually settle to the bottom. Then it may fail in a
particular area. If it sat long enough that there was considerable rust
around the perimeter of the stored water and you then added pressure there
might be a more dramatic failure, if the large rust area suddenly gave way.
Typically however the weakest point will be a pin point leak that could grow
in size over time
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Most air compressors of this caliber are never pressurized much above
> 100psi anyway. I can't imagine a tank "blowout" at this pressure causing
> much harm at all, other than a loud noise and perhaps some soiled
> underwear.
>
Compressors have soiled underwear inside of them?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I installed a ball valve to replace the t-screw valve, 1/4 turn to full
open. I let the valve leak just enough than I can hear it leak if all is
quiet in the shop, this will keep the water drained. Because it takes less
than 5 minutes for mine to go from empty to full when not in use I switch
the compress of from auto to off. It takes about 3 days to fully drain all
pressure.
J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>> ...
>>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
>>> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
>> ...
>> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
>> the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
>>
>> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
>> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>>
>> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
>> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
>> couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
>> events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
>
> Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their tools.
>
> Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or stack
> some dead truck tires around it or something.
Most air compressors of this caliber are never pressurized much above
100psi anyway. I can't imagine a tank "blowout" at this pressure
causing much harm at all, other than a loud noise and perhaps some
soiled underwear.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:64d01818-544c-404d-a7eb-fd94b8f4d815@r13g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
> My tank remains under pressure all the time. I use it nearly every
> day. I not only do woodwork and refinishing, but upholstery, also.
> No need to drain the tank completely of air, just the condensation. I
> would think the same would be in order for you, especially for a 60
> gal tank. As Mike says, always drain before spraying finishes.
> Otherwise, drain it often, at least weekly if you maintain the
> pressure.
>
> When I drain water, almost daily, I have a flag dangling near my tank
> valve as a reminder to oil my air tools, also. This tool maintenance
> has become as routine as the tank draining has.
>
> Token: What I hate are the air leaks from the hose connections. Some
> connections are worse than others, depending on the tool.
>
> Sonny
If you change over to a brand such as Milton, you are less likely to have
fitting leaks. And if you can use BRASS fittings they tend to seal better
with the tool.
Mike wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I've had an upright Sanborn (similar to your C-H) for the past 20 years
and I *never* release the pressure from the tank, at least not unless
I'm draining the water, which isn't all that often. I don't run it
balls-out too often, but when I do moisture in the lines is rarely a
problem because I use one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Air-Filter-Kit-JLMM45-Category/dp/B000TARQ6C/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1241968978&sr=1-7
I've had it for the same 20 years and it works like a champ. WAY better
than those glass bowl filters.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Another thing to consider is an auto drain assembly.
It is an enclosed ball and needle vale that drains the tank when ever the
ball float goes above a certain level.
It is piped to the drain valve connection.
I have them on both compressors and they stay nice and dry.
I also use a filter on the line just in case.
Got everything throough Grainger's or McMaster Carr, I don't recall which.
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike wrote:
>> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
>> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>>
>> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>> need it?
>
> I've had an upright Sanborn (similar to your C-H) for the past 20 years
> and I *never* release the pressure from the tank, at least not unless I'm
> draining the water, which isn't all that often. I don't run it balls-out
> too often, but when I do moisture in the lines is rarely a problem because
> I use one of these:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Air-Filter-Kit-JLMM45-Category/dp/B000TARQ6C/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1241968978&sr=1-7
>
> I've had it for the same 20 years and it works like a champ. WAY better
> than those glass bowl filters.
>
> --
> See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
> To reply, eat the taco.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Yes, that is true on a oil lubricated compressor that has oil leaking
>> past
>> the piston rings but a new compressor that is not leaking oil past the
>> rings
>> will rust prematurely if you do not drain the tank often in a humid
>> environment.
>
> Any oil lubed compressor will have some oil migration past the rings.
> It's
> almost impossible, or at least economically prohibitive, to attempt to
> reduce
> it in typical air tool grade equipment.
Yeah and each compression stroke will have at least "1" atom of Ceasar's
last breath. Compressors unlike automotive engines depend on the crank
shaft and rod splashing in the oil to lubricate the bearings and cylinder
walls. Automotive engines which are more likely to leak oil past the oil
rings have an oil pump forcing the oil to all of those areas. through
journals, crank shaft bearings, rod bearings and the connecting rods.
Additionally, unless the rings in a compressor pump are leaking badly the
higher compression in the cylinder area will help to prevent migration of
oil past the rings into the cylinder, head, and eventuallly the tank. There
has to be considerable loss of compression and blow-by past the rings above
the piston before migration will happen. The amount that does migrate in a
properly maintained and well running compressor is immeasurable. If you see
oil coming out of your condensation drain you have ring problems. IF the
amount of oil that you think that gets into the tank of a compressor is
enough to prevent rust I suggest you get your compressor repaired. My
"new" compressor is 14 years old and has never been low on oil although I am
beginning to see a bit of rust come out with the draining water if it sets
too long with out being drained. Occasionally I inadvertently bump the
drain ball valve and close it. While a compressor will operate with leaking
rings, like a gasilone engine that burns oil, it does not run as effeciently
as it could be. You should not be depending ona a compressor pump that is
in need of repair to protect your tank from rust, especially considering the
many "gallons" of water that goes through the tank.
>
>> With that in mind also not all compressor oil lubricated.
>
> An example is SCUBA tank compressors, which are lubricated with a
> non-toxic soap
> solution and insanely expensive.
A more simple example and one that more closely meets the description of the
type compressor in this discussion is the "cheap" oilless direct drive
compressor.
>
>> I have has an old
>> inherited 80 gal oiled compressor developed pin holes in the tank because
>> of
>> interior rust.
>
> Nowhere did I state rust was entirely eliminated. I said it was reduced.
> Pay attention, please.
No where did I state that you said that the rust would be eliminated. I was
merely trying to pointing out that if you are depending on leaking piston
rings to keep your tank from rusting you have more to worry about than a
little rust in the tank.
So uh, practice what you preach.
>
> nb
>
Jack Stein wrote:
> Drew Lawson wrote:
> Jack Stein <[email protected]> writes:
>>> So, I'm NOT alone....although you got me by maybe 5 years. I had
>>> thought the tanks were lined in glass, someone told me that once...
>>> Now, I'm thinking metal rusts slower under water than just being
>>> damp? If damp metal is in contact with air, it rusts quickly. Not
>>> much air in water, so, leaving it in might be better than draining it
>>> every day?
>
>> Um, no. There isn't much air in water, but there is a hell of a
>> lot of oxygen.
>
> Good point.
>
>> Water contributes to rust so well because water is
>> self-ionizing (something to do with the shape of the molecule). A
>> small fraction of the water is always free oxygen and free hydrogen.
>
> Thanks for the link, but I got to tell you, it was way over my head.:-)
> I couldn't figure out if it addressed say a nail submerged in water vs a
> nail kept constantly wet/damp but not submerged. I'm thinking that a
> compressor is always wet on the bottom whether or not you drain it. What
> do you think? I don't have a clue myself, but I know I rarely have
> drained mine in over 30 years, and it still has no leaks, and the last
> time I drained it, about 6 months ago after a similar discussion here
> (where I learned the tank doesn't have a glass liner) I drained several
> pints of water into a glass container, no sign of rust, and no sign of oil.
>
> I'm also thinking when/if it rusts through, it will go pfsssssh instead
> of boooom.:-)
>
>> Beyond that, I'm completely ignorant about the details of the steel
>> that is used for these tanks. Maybe the typical tank-steel rusts
>> very slowly.
>
> Maybe they use, or used to use, or some use, a rust resistant, high
> nickel or something type of metal. I know mine is over 30 years old,
> bought it used, and my brothers he bought used when I was 12 years old,
> really old then (50 years ago), and it still holds air fine, no signs of
> leakage (he drains his though) I remember painting cars with it and it
> sounded like it was going to knock itself apart. My brother said if
> breaks, he'll buy a nice 2-3 stage compressor... still running still a
> knocking. I painted lots of cars and trucks with that thing, and it
> proves if you want something to break, it never will.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
>>
I used to have a small home air compressor. Over time the air tank
developed a couple of holes. These were in the bottom and would vent air
and water when in use. The pump eventually gave out so I replaced it
with one from HF.
I would be more worried about the lost capacity in the tank if it not
drained regularly.
I have never seen a tank go south and that includes reservoirs on ships that
were 40 years old.
I lean toward small pumps but like to mount reservoirs in the system for
pressure stability.
I have two small compressors selected for their noise level and kept in
clean areas in the basement.
They have automatic float type drains but small tanks.
Since water does not compress like air, I would be more worried about loss
of air stowage.
I don't think I have ever had a pump outlast a tank.
Piping is a different issue especially with all the oil free pump ends that
are out there nowadays.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Water would tend to collect in the bottom of the tank first, and that's
>> where the rust would occur, right?
>
> NO! Like a glass of ice water the water would collect on all cooler
> surfaces, basically every square inch of the interior surface of the tank.
> Compared to the very hot compressed air going into the tank, the tank is
> quite cool in contrast. Then as the moisture condensed more, it would run
> down to the bottom and collect, but the whole tank is going to be wet.
>
>
> So by the time the bottom of the tank
>> has rusted out, the sides and top of the tank would still be in good
>> shape.
>
> No, see above.
>
>
> Should the right conditions occur, I think it more likely a
>> compressor tank act as a rocket and not a bomb.
>
> No, Pin holes will develope all over the surface. I had an old 80 gallon
> compressor, that I inherited, develope pin holes near the center of the
> sides of the tankfirst, none were at the bottom.
>
> The above is true if the compressor is use regularily. If you store it
> for years on end with water in side and bring up the pressure the bottom
> may fall out then.
>
>
>
>
>
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:44e602a3-c9a8-491d-acc4-8e9e3d3e224e@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On May 8, 6:35 am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
I see no justification to subject the tank unnecessarily through
inflation/deflation cycles.
I'm reasonably certain that by 'draining' they mean the water from the
bottom of the tank. Always a good habit.
Buy a fitting which will allow you to attach a swaged line (think
brake line from the auto parts store) and run it up along the side to
the top of the tank where it is easily accessible. Install a ball
valve (as per Leon) up there. If you want to get fancy, attach a small
swan neck to the ball-valve so you can conveniently catch the water as
it comes out.
I have kicked around the idea of making the valve a bit more accessible but
I think you are going to have to have a high volume release to persuade
water to go up a line and out. If you simply let the air trickle the water
is probably not going to be completely drained once the bottom of the tank
is empty, I suspect that the vertical line would retain water.
"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Water would tend to collect in the bottom of the tank first, and that's
> where the rust would occur, right?
NO! Like a glass of ice water the water would collect on all cooler
surfaces, basically every square inch of the interior surface of the tank.
Compared to the very hot compressed air going into the tank, the tank is
quite cool in contrast. Then as the moisture condensed more, it would run
down to the bottom and collect, but the whole tank is going to be wet.
So by the time the bottom of the tank
> has rusted out, the sides and top of the tank would still be in good
> shape.
No, see above.
Should the right conditions occur, I think it more likely a
> compressor tank act as a rocket and not a bomb.
No, Pin holes will develope all over the surface. I had an old 80 gallon
compressor, that I inherited, develope pin holes near the center of the
sides of the tankfirst, none were at the bottom.
The above is true if the compressor is use regularily. If you store it for
years on end with water in side and bring up the pressure the bottom may
fall out then.
"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap. The
> fittings are at least as expensive as the tubing for an extensive
> system.
Copper is a very common air line material. Easy to break into if you want
to add branches later too.
krw wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2009 20:18:26 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>"krw" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>>Think your database needs an update on copper prices.
>>>
>>>Lew
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The price of copper has come down quite a bit over the last couple of
>>months:
>>
>>1/2" x 10' Type M copper pipe - $6.76
>>1/2" x 10' Type L copper pipe - $9.68
>>
>>A few months ago I paid $68.00 for a 250' roll of 14/2 Romex. Last week
>>it was down to $23.00.
>
>
> Where? I'd pick op three or four at that price! It was $41 at lowes
> on the way home. I'll be finishing the (u)FROG over the next year or
> so and would buy ahead if it were down that far.
It was the contractor price at one of out local building supply places,
Lenco Lumber. I checked their web site this AM and their regular price
without the contractor discount today is $34.29 for 250'.
http://www.lencobuffalo.com/
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com.
> ..
>> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to
>> part with it for $399 (gloat?)
>>
>> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>> need it?
>
> I drain mine periodically - if by "drain", you mean draining out the
> water from the tank. Always at the beginning of a paint job,
> periodically when using my air tools. I keep saying I'm going to
> install a sniffer system to blow it off every time it cycles, to
> prevent water build up, but so far I haven't done so. As for simply
> draining the pressure off (if that's what you mean...), don't bother.
> No point at all in doing that. My compressor stays charged 100% of
> the time.
>
Wouldn't that depend on usage? If I use my little pancake once a month
it is a lot. I usually drain both water and air when finished.
Rank amateur :)
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:24e54939-6ee2-4334-943a-956620da1d48@t11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> I drain mine periodically - if by "drain", you mean draining out the water
> from the tank. Always at the beginning of a paint job, periodically when
> using my air tools. I keep saying I'm going to install a sniffer system to
> blow it off every time it cycles, to prevent water build up, but so far I
> haven't done so. As for simply draining the pressure off (if that's what
> you mean...), don't bother. No point at all in doing that. My compressor
> stays charged 100% of the time.
>
I was referring to the pressure. The tank has a small drain valve at
the bottom - I'm guessing that I can just crack that open every day or
two to let out whatever condensation builds up. I just didn't know if
it was OK to leave the tank under pressure for a few days to a week
between uses.
It is absolutely OK to leave the tanks pressured up, unless you have a leak.
You would not want the compressor running if you are not using it. In the
automotive shops I have worked in over the years the compressors stayed
pressured up year round.
Mike wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
Let gravity do your work:
Take out the existing drain valve, add about three feet of large
diameter air hose with appropriate fitting where drain valve was; put
the drain valve on the end of the hose and run hose to convenient location.
Easier to drain, and the air hose, which doesn't rust, will now be
holding a good deal of water that will not be standing in the tank.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Copper Oxide - the black power inside - must be filtered out
or it will clog any tool.
Having a quality filter at each site to trap the fine dust might
be expensive.
Dryer at the front helps any pipe system.
Martin
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap. The
>> fittings are at least as expensive as the tubing for an extensive
>> system.
>
> Copper is a very common air line material. Easy to break into if you want
> to add branches later too.
>
>
On May 8, 8:44=A0am, Sonny <[email protected]> wrote:
> My tank remains under pressure all the time. =A0I use it nearly every
> day. =A0I not only do woodwork and refinishing, but upholstery, also.
> No need to drain the tank completely of air, just the condensation. =A0I
> would think the same would be in order for you, especially for a 60
> gal tank. =A0As Mike says, always drain before spraying finishes.
> Otherwise, drain it often, at least weekly if you maintain the
> pressure.
>
> When I drain water, almost daily, I have a flag dangling near my tank
> valve as a reminder to oil my air tools, also. =A0This tool maintenance
> has become as routine as the tank draining has.
>
> Token: =A0What I hate are the air leaks from the hose connections. =A0Som=
e
> connections are worse than others, depending on the tool.
>
> Sonny
I put a bottle of tool-lube on top of my stash of nail-clips. I reload
the nailer, I lube.
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I used to work in a machine shop and I finally cracked the pet cock at the
bottom of the tank so little that I had to use a plastic cup with water in
it to get one or two bubbles every few seconds and just let it run like that
M-F turned the compresser off Friday at 5 and resarted it on Monday at 7.
YMMV, Rich
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Would you go into a disco with an epileptic...when the epileptic had a
> loaded gun pointing at your head? It has similar risks to an
> uninspected uninsurable pressure vessel.
>
Actually, analogies like this are where things break down. The likelihood
of a compressor tank exploding is dramatically less than the predictability
of the result you staged with your example. The risks are completely
dissimilar.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I probably don't drain the moisture often enough. My tank remains
pressurized most of the time. My theory is I always have air
available, and I'm not running the machine needlessly.
It is a good idea to drain the moisture out fairly often because
moisture can cause problems. Small problems include getting moisture
into paint and tools. Big problems include rusting out the bottom of
the tank around the drain valve. The tanks are pretty much un-
repairable so then you buy a compressor (or part out a similar one).
RonB
On Thu, 14 May 2009 20:18:26 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "krw" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap.
>>
>>
>> Think your database needs an update on copper prices.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>
>The price of copper has come down quite a bit over the last couple of
>months:
>
>1/2" x 10' Type M copper pipe - $6.76
>1/2" x 10' Type L copper pipe - $9.68
>
>A few months ago I paid $68.00 for a 250' roll of 14/2 Romex. Last week
>it was down to $23.00.
Where? I'd pick op three or four at that price! It was $41 at lowes
on the way home. I'll be finishing the (u)FROG over the next year or
so and would buy ahead if it were down that far.
Mike wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
Pressure's not going to bother it, condensation however will rust it.
Mike wrote:
...
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
They mean for moisture as others noted...
I know what they say but...
The 80(?) gal compressor here is 40+ yr old and has been left
pressurized/on 24/7 and hasn't been drained but a time or two in its
lifetime (and would add a "maybe" to that estimate).
It's reasonably dry here but not desert; I never see evidence of a great
deal of moisture in the air. Don't use much volume which probably makes
a difference; if it were in continuous use would probably be more
need...daily surely seems excessively a-r to me unless a large volume is
going through the compressor daily and/or it is very high RH area...
just to toss in $0.02, etc., ... :)
--
In article <b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
>with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
>The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>need it?
Just drain any water out.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Mike wrote:
> On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:15:04 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I know what they say but...
>>
>> The 80(?) gal compressor here is 40+ yr old and has been left
>> pressurized/on 24/7 and hasn't been drained but a time or two in its
>> lifetime (and would add a "maybe" to that estimate).
>
> Have you ever consider the need to internally inspect the pressure
> vessel?
Nope...
--
Mike wrote:
...
> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
...
Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use, low-volume
homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been 30+
years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
--
dpb wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> ...
>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
>> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
> ...
> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
> the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
>
> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>
> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
> couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
> events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their tools.
Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or stack
some dead truck tires around it or something.
Steve Turner wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Mike wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one
>>>> about thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
>>> ...
>>> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing
>>> than the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or
>>> so...
>>>
>>> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
>>> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>>>
>>> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
>>> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been
>>> a couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher
>>> temperature events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
>>
>> Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their
>> tools.
>>
>> Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or
>> stack some dead truck tires around it or something.
>
> Most air compressors of this caliber are never pressurized much above
> 100psi anyway. I can't imagine a tank "blowout" at this pressure
> causing much harm at all, other than a loud noise and perhaps some
> soiled underwear.
Bingo. But if one is determined to be afraid of one's compressor then
rather than agonizing over how it is going to explode and kill them one day
they should take steps that allow it to explode with impunity and then stop
worrying about it. Of course if they aren't happy unless they're worrying
about something I guess a compressor is as good a target for recreational
worrying as anything.
J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>> ...
>>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
>>> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
>> ...
>> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
>> the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
>>
>> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
>> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>>
>> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
>> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
>> couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
>> events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
>
> Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their tools.
>
> Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or stack
> some dead truck tires around it or something.
The tank itself (particularly if it is ASME-rated; some of the no-name
imports that aren't rated I might worry just a little about a weld
failure) is pretty unlikely to be an issue.
What I have seen that can be injurious if not lethal is the
shock-induced fracture of larger plastic pipe used as reservoirs in a
shop air system. It was cold (-20F outside, unheated shop building
probably about 0F inside) and a tool fell from a wall hook and hit one
of these. It scattered pieces around like that if got you in a tender
spot could have done some damage.
I abandoned the idea of plastic lines then and there for the barn. :)
Altho I think a 1/2-3/4" distribution line wouldn't have sufficient
material volume to be a major deal, I decided it wouldn't be a smart
idea even if cheaper... :)
That was ages ago long before I ran across the OSHA directives, etc., ...
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 16:24:18 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> recreational worrying
> .
> Never seen that term before, but it captures the concept beautifully!
Thank you, sir. Made it up on the spot.
dpb wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:15:04 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I know what they say but...
>>>
>>> The 80(?) gal compressor here is 40+ yr old and has been left
>>> pressurized/on 24/7 and hasn't been drained but a time or two in its
>>> lifetime (and would add a "maybe" to that estimate).
>> Have you ever consider the need to internally inspect the pressure
>> vessel?
>
> Nope...
So, I'm NOT alone....although you got me by maybe 5 years. I had
thought the tanks were lined in glass, someone told me that once... Now,
I'm thinking metal rusts slower under water than just being damp? If
damp metal is in contact with air, it rusts quickly. Not much air in
water, so, leaving it in might be better than draining it every day?
Just wondering why my 30 gallon tank hasn't collapsed in a pile of rubble?
--
Jack
Go Penns!
http://jbstein.com
In article <[email protected]>
Jack Stein <[email protected]> writes:
>
>So, I'm NOT alone....although you got me by maybe 5 years. I had
>thought the tanks were lined in glass, someone told me that once... Now,
>I'm thinking metal rusts slower under water than just being damp? If
>damp metal is in contact with air, it rusts quickly. Not much air in
>water, so, leaving it in might be better than draining it every day?
Um, no. There isn't much air in water, but there is a hell of a
lot of oxygen. Water contributes to rust so well because water is
self-ionizing (something to do with the shape of the molecule). A
small fraction of the water is always free oxygen and free hydrogen.
Beyond that, I'm completely ignorant about the details of the steel
that is used for these tanks. Maybe the typical tank-steel rusts
very slowly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
--
|Drew Lawson | Mrs. Tweedy! |
| | The chickens are revolting! |
Drew Lawson wrote:
Jack Stein <[email protected]> writes:
>> So, I'm NOT alone....although you got me by maybe 5 years. I had
>> thought the tanks were lined in glass, someone told me that once... Now,
>> I'm thinking metal rusts slower under water than just being damp? If
>> damp metal is in contact with air, it rusts quickly. Not much air in
>> water, so, leaving it in might be better than draining it every day?
> Um, no. There isn't much air in water, but there is a hell of a
> lot of oxygen.
Good point.
> Water contributes to rust so well because water is
> self-ionizing (something to do with the shape of the molecule). A
> small fraction of the water is always free oxygen and free hydrogen.
Thanks for the link, but I got to tell you, it was way over my head.:-)
I couldn't figure out if it addressed say a nail submerged in water vs a
nail kept constantly wet/damp but not submerged. I'm thinking that a
compressor is always wet on the bottom whether or not you drain it. What
do you think? I don't have a clue myself, but I know I rarely have
drained mine in over 30 years, and it still has no leaks, and the last
time I drained it, about 6 months ago after a similar discussion here
(where I learned the tank doesn't have a glass liner) I drained several
pints of water into a glass container, no sign of rust, and no sign of
oil.
I'm also thinking when/if it rusts through, it will go pfsssssh instead
of boooom.:-)
> Beyond that, I'm completely ignorant about the details of the steel
> that is used for these tanks. Maybe the typical tank-steel rusts
> very slowly.
Maybe they use, or used to use, or some use, a rust resistant, high
nickel or something type of metal. I know mine is over 30 years old,
bought it used, and my brothers he bought used when I was 12 years old,
really old then (50 years ago), and it still holds air fine, no signs of
leakage (he drains his though) I remember painting cars with it and it
sounded like it was going to knock itself apart. My brother said if
breaks, he'll buy a nice 2-3 stage compressor... still running still a
knocking. I painted lots of cars and trucks with that thing, and it
proves if you want something to break, it never will.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
>
--
Jack
Go Penns
http://jbstein.com
Mike wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
>
>> I'm also thinking when/if it rusts through, it will go pfsssssh instead
>> of boooom.:-)
> Think away.
Does that mean you think it will do something different? If so, what
and what makes you think so? I've never heard of one going boom but
even then, I would think it would be less than spectacular.
>>> Beyond that, I'm completely ignorant about the details of the steel
>>> that is used for these tanks. Maybe the typical tank-steel rusts
>>> very slowly.
>> Maybe they use, or used to use, or some use, a rust resistant, high
>> nickel or something type of metal.
> Maybe.
Well, what do you think makes tanks that are constantly wet last for 30
- 50 years and more?
> Would you go into a disco with an epileptic...when the epileptic had a
> loaded gun pointing at your head? It has similar risks to an
> uninspected uninsurable pressure vessel.
I've been around stuff, and doing stuff that OSHA would have cardiac
arrest over for my entire life. So far, even though I may have been
lucky a time or two, I'm still alive and well, no serious damage. I
feel somewhat comfortable with my judgment so far. As for insurablity,
I've never needed a sure thing to survive, and wouldn't want to live
that way anyway. When I got my first mower that the mower deck shut off
when you went in reverse, I immediately disconnected the dammed thing...
I like living on the "edge" and don't need no stinking insurance
company, or government, to force me to their levels of safety. I've
been using table saws without a guard for close to 50 years, and have no
plan on sticking one on now. They look downright dangerous to me...
> (answers such as I can't dance and I wouldn't go into a disco are not
> permitted)
Well, I can dance with a sufficiently loose definition of the word
dance, and sufficiently large enough consumption of alcohol, and there
is a fine line between being able to "dance" and being unable to walk to
the dance floor...
--
Jack
Go Penns!
http://jbstein.com
"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap. The
> fittings are at least as expensive as the tubing for an extensive
> system.
But is it really still cheap? Residential A/C compressor condensing units
are being stolen for the copper.
On Thu, 14 May 2009 16:12:14 -0500, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm also thinking when/if it rusts through, it will go pfsssssh instead
>of boooom.:-)
Think away.
>> Beyond that, I'm completely ignorant about the details of the steel
>> that is used for these tanks. Maybe the typical tank-steel rusts
>> very slowly.
>
>Maybe they use, or used to use, or some use, a rust resistant, high
>nickel or something type of metal.
Maybe.
Would you go into a disco with an epileptic...when the epileptic had a
loaded gun pointing at your head? It has similar risks to an
uninspected uninsurable pressure vessel.
(answers such as I can't dance and I wouldn't go into a disco are not
permitted)
:-)
--
On Fri, 08 May 2009 22:57:17 GMT, notbob <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> .........running compressor is immeasurable.
>
>I can see this is another pointless discussion. Have a nice day.
Amazing how many of those you seem to get into.
--
LRod
Looking back through the Bush years for his Positive Accomplishments is, for me, like picking through my toddler's diaper for the undigested corn.
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
On Thu, 14 May 2009 17:06:46 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"krw" wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap.
>
>Think your database needs an update on copper prices.
Type-L was $8.80/10ft hunk on the way home. Quick disconnects are
$3-$5 each and 1/2" copper to 1/4" pipe fittings are over $3! Yeah,
it's still pretty cheap. ...and it's so easy to work with (damn I
hate the PEX in my new house).
On Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33:00 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:15:04 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I know what they say but...
>>>
>>> The 80(?) gal compressor here is 40+ yr old and has been left
>>> pressurized/on 24/7 and hasn't been drained but a time or two in its
>>> lifetime (and would add a "maybe" to that estimate).
>>
>> Have you ever consider the need to internally inspect the pressure
>> vessel?
>
>Nope...
Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
In the UK, if the pressure vessel is used in commercial premises then
26 months is the maximum period between statutory inspections. The
rest of the world may vary (and usually does!)
--
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 14 May 2009 16:12:14 -0500, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
>
> Would you go into a disco with an epileptic...when the epileptic had a
> loaded gun pointing at your head? It has similar risks to an
> uninspected uninsurable pressure vessel.
Actually I think a closer comparison would be the epiletic hoalding a loaded
gun to your head and an eliletic pointing a loaded gun at a pressurized
container that you are setting on.
As story hungry as the media is I don't recall having ever heard of an air
compressor exploding and I have worked around compresssors for my entire
professional career.
Turn the bottom outlet on just a tiny bit. Do this at pressure.
You don't want to drain the tank, but have a nominal leak that
blows water out the bottom.
My pump turns on every 6-7 hours when not using it. If a long time off,
I unplug the pump.
Since doing that, my air has been much dryer and the dryers and active dryer
does the rest.
Just what I am doing.
Martin
Mike wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm thinking that a compressor is always wet on the bottom whether or not
> you drain it. What do you think?
Is an iced tea glass only wet on the bottom? It condenses moisture on the
outside of the glass every where the glass is cooler than the ambient
temperature. The compressor tank works the same way. HOT compressed air
goes into the tank and the moisture in the air condenses every where on the
inside tank walls. Basically the moisture is all over the inside walls
untill the droplets become large enough to run down to the bottom of the
tank and collect.
I firmly believe that draining the tank helps to slow rusting but more
importantly it maintains tank air capacity and helps to keep moisture out of
the air hose. A tank that has a 20 gallon capacity and has 4 gallons of
water in it will recycle 20% more often, or something like that.
> I'm also thinking when/if it rusts through, it will go pfsssssh instead of
> boooom.:-)
I had an 80 gallon unit fail that way, it was a slow death. With relatively
low pressure and the fact that there is/are weakest points in the tank pin
holes developed and leak. As they rust they become bigger and leak more. I
suppose if you ignore that situation the tank could eventually explode or
blow a larger hole.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "krw" wrote:
>
>
>>What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap.
>
>
> Think your database needs an update on copper prices.
>
> Lew
>
>
The price of copper has come down quite a bit over the last couple of
months:
1/2" x 10' Type M copper pipe - $6.76
1/2" x 10' Type L copper pipe - $9.68
A few months ago I paid $68.00 for a 250' roll of 14/2 Romex. Last week
it was down to $23.00.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a 7.5 HP Ingersal-Rand system with an automatic drain. It
> vents for 2 seconds every hour. Besides keeping the tank bone dry it
> has the advantage of scaring the hell out of the cats if they are any
> where near by.
Ahh an unexpected bonus that a comes with purchasing quality equipment.
On Wed, 13 May 2009 14:50:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>> ...
>>> Ever seen the results of a pressure vessel failure? I saw one about
>>> thirty years ago that sent shrapnel over 50 yards.
>> ...
>> Catastrophic overpressure failure is a completely different thing than
>> the possibility of a rust pinhole developing after 50 years or so...
>>
>> I'm simply commenting that daily water buildup in a low-use,
>> low-volume homeowner/home-shop environment is somewhat excessive...
>>
>> And, yes, I've seen results of high-pressure water/steam having been
>> 30+ years associated w/ power generation facilities there have been a
>> couple. But they're much higher pressure and much higher temperature
>> events (1000-2000 psi, 600-1000F typical).
>
>Yet another example of people living in unreasoned terror of their tools.
>
>Anybody that worried about it should wrap it in a Kevlar blanket or stack
>some dead truck tires around it or something.
No one is 'living in unreasoned terror of their tools' A statutory
internal inspection of a pressure vessel might *never* find anything,
but the defined periods and limits of that inspection are based on
many years of practical experience, and nothing in that knowledge base
can currently justify extending that inspection period by a few months
let alone a few decades. It's absolutely bugger all to do with
overpressure and regardless of the normal operating pressure the
regime of inspection is identical.
A typical 100psi portable compressor typically used in close proximity
to the work with portable tools might be viewed as more dangerous in
failure than a 3000psi compressor used in air blast HV switchgear as
for most of the time no one is anywhere near them when they are
operating and they use chain mail screens to limit damage to the
building and adjacent equipment.
Anyone operating a pressure vessel for 40 years with no internal
inspection IS living on borrowed time, that's not just my opinion but
that of thousands of professional pressure vessel inspectors,
insurance companies and health and safety legislators worldwide.
--
Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I suspect the manual means "drain" in the sense that any accumulated
water in the tank should be removed as opposed to dumping out all
the compressed air. Just open the valve on the bottom of tank long
enough to let out any water, and then close it up again. I try to
do this on my compressor about once a day, but it winds up being
more like once or twice a week when I remember.
"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-05-08, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Pressure's not going to bother it, condensation however will rust it.
>
> Rust is considerately reduced by the fact compressors are oil lubricated,
> so
> there is typically a water/oil mix in the tank. I used to worry about it,
> but my Craftsman compressor, which I inherited from my late FIL, never
> gave
> me an bit of trouble. When I sold it cuz of moving, it still worked great
> despite being almost 30 yrs old.
>
> nb
Yes, that is true on a oil lubricated compressor that has oil leaking past
the piston rings but a new compressor that is not leaking oil past the rings
will rust prematurely if you do not drain the tank often in a humid
environment.
With that in mind also not all compressor oil lubricated. I have has an old
inherited 80 gal oiled compressor developed pin holes in the tank because of
interior rust.
Mike wrote:
>OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to
>part
>with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
>The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>need it?
SFWIW:
Replace drain petcock with a 1/2" ball valve and some pipe so that the
ball valve can be kicked open or closed with your foot without bending
over.
The final pipe is pointed towards the ground.
Drain tank on a weekly basis.
For me that was Sunday night.
Would kick the drain valve open and forget it.
When the compressor was started the next time, the drain valve would
start "singing", reminding me to kick it shut.
Lew
Mike wrote:
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
I installed one of the Harbor Freight "Automatic Compressor Drain Kit"
on mine. It opens momentarily each time the compressor starts or stops.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46960
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Thu, 14 May 2009 06:04:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What's wrong with copper? Copper tubing is still pretty cheap. The
>> fittings are at least as expensive as the tubing for an extensive
>> system.
>
>Copper is a very common air line material. Easy to break into if you want
>to add branches later too.
Yep. I put >150ft in my previous house. I'd like to do similar here.
On 2009-05-08, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pressure's not going to bother it, condensation however will rust it.
Rust is considerately reduced by the fact compressors are oil lubricated, so
there is typically a water/oil mix in the tank. I used to worry about it,
but my Craftsman compressor, which I inherited from my late FIL, never gave
me an bit of trouble. When I sold it cuz of moving, it still worked great
despite being almost 30 yrs old.
nb
On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, that is true on a oil lubricated compressor that has oil leaking past
> the piston rings but a new compressor that is not leaking oil past the rings
> will rust prematurely if you do not drain the tank often in a humid
> environment.
Any oil lubed compressor will have some oil migration past the rings. It's
almost impossible, or at least economically prohibitive, to attempt to reduce
it in typical air tool grade equipment.
> With that in mind also not all compressor oil lubricated.
An example is SCUBA tank compressors, which are lubricated with a non-toxic soap
solution and insanely expensive.
> I have has an old
> inherited 80 gal oiled compressor developed pin holes in the tank because of
> interior rust.
Nowhere did I state rust was entirely eliminated. I said it was reduced.
Pay attention, please.
nb
On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> .........running compressor is immeasurable.
I can see this is another pointless discussion. Have a nice day.
nb
On 2009-05-09, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> "notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2009-05-08, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> .........running compressor is immeasurable.
>>
>> I can see this is another pointless discussion. Have a nice day.
>>
>> nb
>
> I am certainly glad I did not have to paint you a picture.
Yes. You've made it quite clear. You don't know how to measure.
nb
On Fri, 8 May 2009 03:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
>Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
>with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
>The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
>what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
>the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
>need it?
Both. Leave the tank pressurized and just blow off the moisture from
the drain daily (if it is used).
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a 7.5 HP Ingersal-Rand system with an automatic drain. It
> vents for 2 seconds every hour. Besides keeping the tank bone dry it
> has the advantage of scaring the hell out of the cats if they are any
> where near by.
Looking over their shoulders as they run, or just low to the ground hauling?
:o)
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7fd5d39-d22d-4465-be8f-d916975604c6@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I finally figured out my compressor purchase and went with the
> Campbell Hausfield 60 gal upright - Lowes was even nice enough to part
> with it for $399 (gloat?)
>
> The manual says that the tank should be drained daily. I'm wondering
> what people usually do with their large compressors... do you drain
> the tank every day, or just leave it pumped up so it's ready when you
> need it?
Air pressure on my compressor is never fully released unless we are doing
repairs or upgrades, etc.
We do, however have a ball valve and tube at the bottom of the compressor
and at a few low points on the lines to remove moisture as well as a large
FRL at any point where a tool is being run. We drain the water daily via a
10 second opening of the valve, etc.
When we used to have super high volume needs (previous business) we set up
an automatic timer that vented the valve at the bottom of the tank every
hour for 2 seconds. We used to drain out a few gallons of water a day on
the big compressors.
Folks in humid areas have highly efficient air dryers and possibly these
purge systems to keep water out of air lines, etc. ...Especially medical
and food grade systems.
But if you are talking air only? They must have a reason to do it, but I
can't figure out what it is... I'd think pressurizing and depressurizing
the system daily would cause unnecessary fluctuations and possibly damage
long term - like bending a piece of metal back and forth slightly over and
over again... Eventually, it fails / breaks.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
V8013-R