Chain saw gas

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>Leon wrote:

>
>> I think you vastly under estimate what an electric can do if you
>> believe that they are only good for a small limb a couple of times a
>> year. I have owned both and in my yard I would choose electric over
>> gas if both were sitting on my work bench and ready to go.
>

>Turn of a phrase, and a matter of perspective I guess. I would consider
>most of what you do in your yard to be small work a couple of times a year,
>compared to putting up a season's worth of firewood. Remember - I do own
>an electric chainsaw as well as my two gas saws, so I do appreciate what it
>can do. With that said - it would in no way keep up with even the small
>gas saw in cutting through something like a 10" limb.

This "capacity" thing is true of pretty much all of power tools...

I'm now debating whether I should buy a bigger chainsaw as I've got a couple
big trees to cut down and my 18" Stihl MS271 (about 3.5 hp) seems
inadequate. Both are about 36" in diameter at chest height, one an ash and
the other a maple. I'm looking at the Stihl MS461... about 6 hp and will
take much longer bars. It's not inexpensive but it would cost way less than
hiring a tree service to take down those two big trees and I'd have it for
other serious tree cutting. I took Game of Logging training, have done a
lot of studying, and have felled quite a number of trees so those big ones
look to be reasonable tasks to me... except for the capacity of my MS271
that is. I've taken down trees taller than those two but not as big in
diameter...

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:44:25 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 12/28/2015 1:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:58 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
>>> A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.
>>
>> Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
>> But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
>> won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
>> angry"
>>>
>>>> Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.
>> Doesn';t seem to.
>>>
>>> I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
>>> it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
>>> two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
>>> the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
>>> mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
>>> something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
>>> the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
>>> will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
>>> on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.
>>>
>>> It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
>>> to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
>>> hurt the engine)
>>>
>>> I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
>>> the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
>>> but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...
>> I tend to use 40:1 instead of 50:1 so it does smoke - but it is close
>> to 50 years old and has never been apart. And other than the extreme
>> high compression kickback, it is NOT hard to start. I run ethanol free
>> premium, and even after sitting for 2 years with a full (sealed) tank,
>> it started on the second pull.
>>>
>>> Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
>>> in the gas, it doesn't matter much.
>> If 93 octane drops to 87, think where 87 goes!!!! The more oil, the
>> lower the octane - one advantage of the lighter mixes.
>>
>
>
>I remember when "Leaded Regular" was 91 octane.
And i remember having to settle for something like 71 octane because
it was all I could get - at $1.65 a liter - back in '74 in Livingstone
Zambia. The old '49 beetle didn't care, but the 204 Peugeot wasn't
happy untill I cranked the timing back. You could drive the stage 3
Mini Moke into the shop with the key turned off after you got it
warm........

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:00:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:33:02 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an
>>>> end with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>>>
>>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out
>>> there today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless
>>> you're talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
>> I took down a complete cherry tree except for the bottom 4 feet of
>> trunk with a 10 inch electric on a pole. Line powered - not battery -
>> in less ths 3 hours. The tree was higher than my 2 story house. I
>> used the electric pole saw because there was no way I was taking the
>> remington up into the tree. I limbed it from a 12 foot stepladder with
>> the pole saw completely extended.
>>
>
>I don't doubt that, but it's more of a one-off story. You couldn't use that
>saw routinely like you use your Remington.
No, but some of the new 40 volt lithium ion saws will do anything my
old Partner will do except gas me out and burn my finger if I get my
hand too close to the muffler. The remington has a bit more "cajones"
than the big partner.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:58:30 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
>> cleaning only in the Premium.
>>
>> But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in
>> all grades.
>
>I'm inclined to think that "nitrogen enriched" stuff is all
>just marketting blather.
>
>If you want my opinion, the best gasoline additive is Chevron's
>Techron. But I don't think there's much difference between
>any of the top brands.

Techron is good, but the "nitrogen enriched" is a LITTLE more than
advertizing blather. There is a big difference between run-of-the
-mill gasoline and third tier.
>
>> Well if it was advertized alcohol free they would certainly catch a
>> bunch of flack from the tree huggers.
>>
>> Down here their pumps only claim "May" have up to 10% alcohol.
>
>Same here - I think that's a legal requirement, and is the
>same wording everywhere in the US.
>
>Next time I'm in Texas I'll have to look at the pumps and see
>if the premium is marked different (last time I got gas in TX
>was at the Buck-ees north of Houston on US290, and I was so
>overwhelmed at the size of it - must have been 100 pumps - I
>didn't pay attention to that sort of detail).
>
>John

On 12/29/2015 1:55 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@
>> 4ax.com:
>>
>>
>>> There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
>>> is an "aki" or antiknock index..
>>
>> Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
>> trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
>> yourself in the foot...
>>
>>> Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
>>> premium (in very many cases)???
>>
>> It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know
>> why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax
>> policy.
>>
>> In the US, ethanol is used because:
>>
>> a) it's an effective octane booster
>> b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives
>> c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives
>> d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE
>
> e) intense pressure exerted by the Corn Ethanol Lobby
>
> http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/political-footprint-of-the-corn-ethanol-lobby-2015
> http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/21/how-pandering-to-iowas-ethanol-lobby-hurts-america/
> https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/exposing-corn-based-ethanol-hoax-solution-peak-oil
>
>
If you want to know why there is alcohol in fuel, follow the money.

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:19:13 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>> I think you vastly under estimate what an electric can do if you
>>> believe that they are only good for a small limb a couple of times a
>>> year. I have owned both and in my yard I would choose electric over
>>> gas if both were sitting on my work bench and ready to go.
>>
>
>>Turn of a phrase, and a matter of perspective I guess. I would consider
>>most of what you do in your yard to be small work a couple of times a year,
>>compared to putting up a season's worth of firewood. Remember - I do own
>>an electric chainsaw as well as my two gas saws, so I do appreciate what it
>>can do. With that said - it would in no way keep up with even the small
>>gas saw in cutting through something like a 10" limb.
>
>This "capacity" thing is true of pretty much all of power tools...
>
>I'm now debating whether I should buy a bigger chainsaw as I've got a couple
>big trees to cut down and my 18" Stihl MS271 (about 3.5 hp) seems
>inadequate. Both are about 36" in diameter at chest height, one an ash and
>the other a maple. I'm looking at the Stihl MS461... about 6 hp and will
>take much longer bars. It's not inexpensive but it would cost way less than
>hiring a tree service to take down those two big trees and I'd have it for
>other serious tree cutting. I took Game of Logging training, have done a
>lot of studying, and have felled quite a number of trees so those big ones
>look to be reasonable tasks to me... except for the capacity of my MS271
>that is. I've taken down trees taller than those two but not as big in
>diameter...
When the financials make buying a new toy an "investment", go for
it!!!

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 21:35:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 12/27/2015 9:16 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>>
>>> Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
>>> additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.
>>>
>>> Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
>>> ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
>>> fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
>>> timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.
>>>
>>> In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
>>> would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.
>>>
>>> Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
>>> and make adjustments accordingly.
>>>
>>> If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
>>> timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
>>> could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
>>> naturally running a bit hotter.
>
>
>> Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
>> control and knock sensing???????
>
>No no no no No no.... Not that familiar with the modern chain saws. If
>none have what I described above, it would not be a stretch for it to be
>imagine it happening some day.

I don't envision a computer controlled injected 2 stroke chain saw in
the near future - the extra weight and the durability concerns make
it somewhat unlikely in my lifetime for any but the largest
professional saws.
The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>
>
>
>
>> Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
>> getting pretty fancy in the control department -
>>
>I bet! Technology would be a better sell on HiPerformance engines, and
>could trickle down.

On 12/29/2015 1:58 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
>> cleaning only in the Premium.
>>
>> But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in
>> all grades.
>
> I'm inclined to think that "nitrogen enriched" stuff is all
> just marketting blather.

That very well may be however it is only in the Premium grade Shell
gasoline. Even their web site indicates this.


>
> If you want my opinion, the best gasoline additive is Chevron's
> Techron. But I don't think there's much difference between
> any of the top brands.
>

Techron is not bad at all. I was selling Techron before it was added to
gasoline. I learned about Techron through General Motors, they were
selling it as a fuel additive to combat the injector contamination
issues that they were having in the 80's. And it worked well. It came
in a 16 or 32 oz bottle IIRC. It was only later on that Chevron began
marketing it with their gasoline in Texas.


>> Well if it was advertized alcohol free they would certainly catch a
>> bunch of flack from the tree huggers.
>>
>> Down here their pumps only claim "May" have up to 10% alcohol.
>
> Same here - I think that's a legal requirement, and is the
> same wording everywhere in the US.

Absolutely a requirement when they don't know which fuel you are going
to choose. It is a blanket statement that covers all the bases.
Mid grade is blended at the station pump.

>
> Next time I'm in Texas I'll have to look at the pumps and see
> if the premium is marked different (last time I got gas in TX
> was at the Buck-ees north of Houston on US290, and I was so
> overwhelmed at the size of it - must have been 100 pumps - I
> didn't pay attention to that sort of detail).
>
> John
>

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>


The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

On 12/27/2015 1:58 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
>> thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
>> cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
>> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
>> wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
>> thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
>> without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.
>
> There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
> gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:
>
> http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

Thanks for reminding me of that. After being told of the pre-mix and
using it. I went looking for premium here without success. Found that
very site and, unfortunately, those are all downstate pumps subject to
different regulations which are imposed on us "lucky" devils residing in
NE Illinois. I can, however, head north about 15 miles and get all the
premium, ETOH free gas I want.

"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> The higher end Stihl and Husqvarna professional saws have engine
> management systems available that electronically control the ignition
> timing and fuel metering... Both claim to compensate for different
> fuels, altitude, humidity, temperature and clogged air filters.
>
> Stihl's is called M-Tronic and Husqvarna's is called Autotune.
>
> That said, the average homeowner or farmer probably isn't going to buy
> one of those professional saws... they are costly and excessively
> powerful for what mere mortals need in a chainsaw. The guys making a
> living in the woods or doing serious tree work are more likely to
> spend the big bucks...
>
> John
>

Don't forget the tool junkies. "This thing has electric start,
SparkAdvance(TM) (tm)* that automatically fires the spark before cylinder
reaches TDC, TriggerValves (tm) that restrict fuel flow when you're not
running full speed, and OxoInject (tm) for mixing fresh air with the fuel
for better burn!"

* (For marketing reasons "SparkAdvance(TM)" is the trademarked term.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>> higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>> detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>> alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>
> Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
> not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
> think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
> now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
> other than octane boosters it's generally not so.
>
> I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
> I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
> and I haven't seen that anywhere.

Different strokes for different folk, John.

Saw Shell advertising ethanol free premium up in Wisconsin. Not so here
in Illinois (at least not in the NE corner of the state - down south
it's available in some areas).

I think, but not sure, that Shell's ethanol free was tied in to their
"V-Power" blend or somesuch

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:50:42 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Michael" wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
>>>chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful,
>>>but
>>>I wonder if this is not the best >thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
>>>Thanks.
>>
>>The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
>>free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that
>>has
>>fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience
>>stores
>>started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
>>locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
>>now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
>>trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
>>runs better.
>>
>>I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel
>>as
>>compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:
>>
>>"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
>>more than 10% ethanol content."
>>"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This,
>>in
>>turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."
>>
>>John
> I run nothing but ethanol free premium gas in ALL of my small engine
> equipment. For the small amount of fuel I put through them in a year,
> the difference in cost is a non-issue, particularly considering the
> possible costs of the alternatives. A screwed up carb or a scuffed
> piston or siezed engine is too costly to consider trying to save the
> 7 cents a liter or whatever.

I do the same. I have a 4 cycle mini-rototiller with a Honda mini engine. It
has been a problem from new, had it serviced and not much better. It was
hard to start and would stall after running a few minutes, and then only run
a minute or so after starting hot. This was with regular 87 gas. I also have
a Honda weed wacker with a mini 4 stroke engine that runs fine with regular
87 fuel.

Switched all my small engines to Shell premium, they run great and even the
difficult mini-rototiller Honda now runs properly with only a change of fuel
to premium.

The added cost of premium is insignificant compared to frequent servicing
required when they don't run properly. By the way, I have a Honda
self-propelled walk behind mower that is now over 25 years old and has never
needed service other than oil changes. It starts on the first pull.

On 12/28/2015 1:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:58 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
>> A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.
>
> Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
> But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
> won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
> angry"
>>
>>> Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.
> Doesn';t seem to.
>>
>> I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
>> it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
>> two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
>> the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
>> mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
>> something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
>> the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
>> will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
>> on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.
>>
>> It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
>> to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
>> hurt the engine)
>>
>> I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
>> the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
>> but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...
> I tend to use 40:1 instead of 50:1 so it does smoke - but it is close
> to 50 years old and has never been apart. And other than the extreme
> high compression kickback, it is NOT hard to start. I run ethanol free
> premium, and even after sitting for 2 years with a full (sealed) tank,
> it started on the second pull.
>>
>> Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
>> in the gas, it doesn't matter much.
> If 93 octane drops to 87, think where 87 goes!!!! The more oil, the
> lower the octane - one advantage of the lighter mixes.
>


I remember when "Leaded Regular" was 91 octane.

"Michael" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
>chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but
>I wonder if this is not the best >thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
>Thanks.

The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that has
fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience stores
started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
runs better.

I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel as
compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:

"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
more than 10% ethanol content."
"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This, in
turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."

John

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:27:53 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
>> But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
>> won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
>> angry"
>
>Holy Cow! I own some really good chainsaws - both are Stihls, and neither
>will start on the first or second pull unless you've been using them for a
>while. Cold - they're both good for at least 4 pulls before they cough, and
>then a couple more after you back the choke off. In fact, in my 62 years,
>with at least 45 of those holding on to a chainsaw, I've never owned or used
>a saw that would start cold on one or two pulls. I put up 5 full chords of
>firewood every year, and I'm no novice to chainsaw use, nor even a backyard
>user. You've either got some good mojo going on up there, or I think
>there's something you're not telling us.


OK - when I get the saw out I pull it through once or twice with the
choke on, and the ignition off so it won't tear my arm off - then turn
on the ignition and give it a couple good sharp pulls - Usually
running on the second pull with the ignition on.. Usually barks at me
on the first "powered on" pull. - knock the choke in one notch and
pull again. It either starts or tears the rope out of my hand. I don;t
know if the saw is stock or not - I've only owned it for about 25
years.

On 12/29/2015 4:29 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
>>>> with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>>
>>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there
>>> today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're
>>> talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
>>
>> Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that would
>> serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to professionals that
>> draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws used indoors along with
>> electric powered bandsaw mills.
>>
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/mse170/
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/farm-and-ranch-saws/mse210cbq/
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/professional-saws/mse250cq/
>>
>> They've got a battery powered saw too which would probably serve a
>> homeowner's occasional needs (not useful to me though!).
>>
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/msa160cbq/
>
> My plug-in from Sears handls considerably more than "a 1 inch branch".
>

I had gas and then electric. I can/could saw 6~8" diameter oak limbs
with no hesitation. Granted that because the electric simply runs
slower than the gas does at full throttle the gas cut faster. But over
all in the past 20 or so years the electric has had much less down time
than the gas did, so in the time spent futzing with the gas saw,
including mixing and filling with gas, the electric required less of MY
time , which IMHO is all that counts. Gas is great when that is all
that will work but with electricity available I will stick with an
electric for any trimming including the use of my electric recip saw for
4" and under branches.

On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 19:05:59 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Electric Comet <[email protected]> writes:
>>On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST)
>>Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>>
>>how was it helpful to run hotter
>>
>>was it because of low ambient temps
>>
>>
>>you could try aviation fuel at 100 octane
>
>Aside from the
>fact that that wouldn't be legal or smart in many
>jurisdictions (that's 100LL, and I'll allow you
>to research what the "LL" stands for, and the restrictions
>on the use of 100LL nationwide, or the efforts to phase it out).
You can use 100ll in your saw - but you will need to tear it down to
remove the lead deposits every hundred hours or so. There is more
lead in 100LL than there ever was in the highest octane automotive
fuel sold retail (like Sunoco 260) by a factor of more than 2.

On 12/27/2015 9:16 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>
>> Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
>> additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.
>>
>> Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
>> ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
>> fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
>> timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.
>>
>> In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
>> would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.
>>
>> Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
>> and make adjustments accordingly.
>>
>> If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
>> timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
>> could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
>> naturally running a bit hotter.


> Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
> control and knock sensing???????

No no no no No no.... Not that familiar with the modern chain saws. If
none have what I described above, it would not be a stretch for it to be
imagine it happening some day.




> Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
> getting pretty fancy in the control department -
>
I bet! Technology would be a better sell on HiPerformance engines, and
could trickle down.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> >[email protected] wrote:
>
> >> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
> >> with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>
> >Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there
> >today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're
> >talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
>
> Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that would
> serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to professionals that
> draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws used indoors along with
> electric powered bandsaw mills.
>
> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/mse170/
> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/farm-and-ranch-saws/mse210cbq/
> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/professional-saws/mse250cq/
>
> They've got a battery powered saw too which would probably serve a
> homeowner's occasional needs (not useful to me though!).
>
> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/msa160cbq/

My plug-in from Sears handls considerably more than "a 1 inch branch".

On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
>> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
> Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
> compression to require premium gas.

In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
premium.




>
> If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
> If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
> free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
> eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.

>
> If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
> whichever kind of gas you use.
>
> John
>
I started using Stabil in my gas can and my fuel does well for months on
end, from one season to the next. The label claims that it will keep
the gas good for 2 years, and now I believe it. Still a good idea to
run the carb/tank dry at the end of a season. I only do this however at
the end of the season. Some of my equipment started running badly until
I started treating the gas can about 3 years ago. Now all run
fine...even the Honda that I bought in the spring of 1987.

On 12/28/2015 9:46 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>
>
>>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there
>>> today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're
>>> talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
>>
>> Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that
>> would serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to
>> professionals that draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws used
>> indoors along with electric powered bandsaw mills.
>
> Electric chainsaws have definitelty been around for a while now, but my
> point was the real usefulness of these saws - not the availability of them.
> As I said - unless you're looking to cut up a small limb a coupld of times a
> year, they are not practical.

I think you points would make more sense if you pointed out that gas
works most anywhere and would probably last longer with day to day usage.

The electric that I have cuts much more than "a small limb a couple of
times a year".

I would be willing to bet that if you and I cut down a small tree with
say a 10 diameter trunk, that you probably would not finish far ahead of
me. Many more larger trees and I give you the nod.

I think you vastly under estimate what an electric can do if you believe
that they are only good for a small limb a couple of times a
year. I have owned both and in my yard I would choose electric over gas
if both were sitting on my work bench and ready to go.

Out in the woods felling trees all day long the gas would be an obvious
choice.

I suppose it is a lot like Festool of Fein. Unless you are making money
or specifically have to have the tool it is hard to actually justify the
expense. Then some simply want more than they actually need, and that is
OK too.







>
> I live in a log home, so I own an electric chainsaw (not one of my Stihls) -
> saves on the fumes, etc. (When you remodel; a log home, a chainsaw is your
> tool of choice). That kind of use though is not what 99% of people think
> about when they thinki about chainsaw use.
>
>
>

wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
>control and knock sensing???????
>Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
>getting pretty fancy in the control department -

Found some videos:

Stihl's video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIBdSURoAQ

Husqvarna video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPaofF186Wg

wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
>control and knock sensing???????
>Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
>getting pretty fancy in the control department -

The higher end Stihl and Husqvarna professional saws have engine management
systems available that electronically control the ignition timing and fuel
metering... Both claim to compensate for different fuels, altitude,
humidity, temperature and clogged air filters.

Stihl's is called M-Tronic and Husqvarna's is called Autotune.

That said, the average homeowner or farmer probably isn't going to buy one
of those professional saws... they are costly and excessively powerful for
what mere mortals need in a chainsaw. The guys making a living in the woods
or doing serious tree work are more likely to spend the big bucks...

John

Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
> Any thoughts? Thanks.

Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
compression to require premium gas.

If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.

If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
whichever kind of gas you use.

John

[email protected] wrote in news:hbp08bh7j6h18fpb5gv4npmgae7ckg1hfq@
4ax.com:

> "regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
> in your area. ? dunno.

Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

> A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
> for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?
>
> Geeeze ... am I missing something ?

That sounds about right for E85. Corn alcohol makes
a very poor fuel. With current technology, the only
economically viable (and enviromentally sound) way
to make alcohol fuel is to start with sugar.

John

[email protected] wrote in news:h6318btmbetdivcklbp6av5kmi157ut0rd@
4ax.com:

> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>>Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
>>much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
>>and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
>>ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
>>octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
>>as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.
>>
> The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
> improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
> It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
> of the vehicle.

You are confusing two different things here, both of
which ethanol happens to be good for.

One is octane rating. Raw gas (no additives) has an octane
rating (*) of around 70, so something has to be added to
raise it to a useful level. Historically that was tetra
ethyl lead, which of course is now banned. Ethanol has an
octane rating of around 110. So adding ethanol to gas is
a very effective way to raise the octane rating.

The second is oxygenation. In ideal conditions there is
enough oxygen in the air entering the engine to completely
burn the fuel. Ideal conditions don't always occur, so
a fuel additive that contains oxygen can help get to
complete combustion. Ethanol contains oxygen, so it is
effective as an oxygenator.

Until 2007 there was a Federal requirement (in the US) to
include oxygenators in fuel. That requirement no longer
exists. The reason ethanol is added to gasoline now is
for it's value as an octane booster.

(* octane rating is a confusing thing, because there are
several common ways of testing it, which give different
numbers. In North America the AKI (or R+M/2) method is
used, which is what the numbers above are based on).

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
> higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
> detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
> alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.

Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
and I haven't seen that anywhere.

John

[email protected] wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@
4ax.com:


> There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
> is an "aki" or antiknock index..

Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
yourself in the foot...

> Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
> premium (in very many cases)???

It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know
why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax
policy.

In the US, ethanol is used because:

a) it's an effective octane booster
b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives
c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives
d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE

Incidently, ethanol isn't "added to gas at 10%". The amount
used varies, from 5% to 10%, depending on the octane rating
desired.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
> cleaning only in the Premium.
>
> But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in
> all grades.

I'm inclined to think that "nitrogen enriched" stuff is all
just marketting blather.

If you want my opinion, the best gasoline additive is Chevron's
Techron. But I don't think there's much difference between
any of the top brands.

> Well if it was advertized alcohol free they would certainly catch a
> bunch of flack from the tree huggers.
>
> Down here their pumps only claim "May" have up to 10% alcohol.

Same here - I think that's a legal requirement, and is the
same wording everywhere in the US.

Next time I'm in Texas I'll have to look at the pumps and see
if the premium is marked different (last time I got gas in TX
was at the Buck-ees north of Houston on US290, and I was so
overwhelmed at the size of it - must have been 100 pumps - I
didn't pay attention to that sort of detail).

John

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Also, how the h3!! does it fluctuate perfectly in sync with gasoline
> prices when it only contains 15% gas? When gas is 2 bucks a gallon,
> E-85 is around 2 bucks. When gas is 4 bucks a gallon, E-85 is around
> 4 bucks when there's no fluctuation in the ethanol supply and the
> price is controlled. Who's doing that math? What a rip-off.

Some of that is profiteering, but a big part of it is that
corn ethanol requires a fair bit of fuel to make, and it
can't be stored all that long, so the cost of making it
tracks the cost of fuel fairly well.

In Brazil, where ethanol comes from sugar cane, it takes
much less energy to make it, and almost all comes from
burning bagasse rather than other fuels.

John

[email protected] wrote in news:sft58b93crkcqiru2mqeh5snjegtsqv74s@
4ax.com:

>>Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
>>trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
>>yourself in the foot...

> t octane only goes to 100 because you can NOT have
> aoiso-octane/heptane mixture more than 100% iso-octane.Check your
> facts. Anything over 100 is AKI

You are confused here.

There are several methods of calculating octane rating,
the two most common being the "research method" and the
"motor method". They work the same way, you run the
fuel being tested in a special motor which has a
variable compression ratio, and compare the point
where preignition starts to the point where it starts
with a particular isomer of heptane (defined as zero
octane rating) and a particular isomer of octane
(defined as 100 octane rating). It's entirely possible
for a fuel to accomdate a higher compression ratio
than the octane standard, in which case it's octane
rating is proportionally greater than 100 (conceptually
it's also possible for a fuel to not reach the compression
ratio of the heptane standard, in which case it would
have an octane rating less than zero).

Now, in the UK and Europe, they use the research method
exclusively. Their octane ratings are always RON (and
they have no such thing as an antiknock index). In
North America they take the average of the research
method and the motor method, and call the result the
"pump octane rating". You'll see this on gas pumps:
(R + M)/2. (there are exceptions in the US - racing
fuel is often specified by RON, and av-gas is specified
by MON).

For simplicity, rather than say "the average of the
research method and the motor method", (R + M)/2 has
also come to be known as the antiknock index, or AKI.
It's just another term for octane rating.

John

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>[email protected] wrote:

>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
>> with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.

>Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there
>today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're
>talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.

Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that would
serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to professionals that
draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws used indoors along with
electric powered bandsaw mills.

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/mse170/
http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/farm-and-ranch-saws/mse210cbq/
http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/professional-saws/mse250cq/

They've got a battery powered saw too which would probably serve a
homeowner's occasional needs (not useful to me though!).

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/msa160cbq/

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:50:42 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Michael" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
>>chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but
>>I wonder if this is not the best >thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
>>Thanks.
>
>The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
>free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that has
>fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience stores
>started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
>locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
>now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
>trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
>runs better.
>
>I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel as
>compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:
>
>"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
>more than 10% ethanol content."
>"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This, in
>turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."
>
>John
I run nothing but ethanol free premium gas in ALL of my small engine
equipment. For the small amount of fuel I put through them in a year,
the difference in cost is a non-issue, particularly considering the
possible costs of the alternatives. A screwed up carb or a scuffed
piston or siezed engine is too costly to consider trying to save the
7 cents a liter or whatever.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:42:07 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
>>>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which
>>>> was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the
>>>> machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>
>>> I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm
>>> tractor. Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is
>>> Premium. I've never noticed any difference in how hot my engines
>>> run on it, and I have two Stihl chainsaws that I use the stuff in.
>>> The place where I get my saws serviced strongly recommends only
>>> using ethanol free fuel in them, which by definition, means premium
>>> gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from using the stuff.
>
>> Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
>> wallet.
>
>Indeed - but using that ethanol crap will hurt yer pocketbook even more.
>Ask me how I'd know - have you priced the newer fuel lines that are
>impervious to ethanol? Of course you never really come to understand these
>costs until that day you go out to use the machine and it's pouring fuel all
>over itself through the deteriorated lines. It's almost highway robbery!
>Don't even get me going on trying to rebuild carbs on small tools like
>string trimmers...
I was shocked when I went to buy some Tygon fuel line.. The local
small engine shop wanted over 4 bucks for a foot.
It's about 2 bucks at Aircraft Spruce

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in news:hbp08bh7j6h18fpb5gv4npmgae7ckg1hfq@
>4ax.com:
>
>> "regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
>> in your area. ? dunno.
>
>Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
>much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
>and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
>ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
>octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
>as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.
>
The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
of the vehicle.
>> A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
>> for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?
>>
>> Geeeze ... am I missing something ?
>
>That sounds about right for E85. Corn alcohol makes
>a very poor fuel. With current technology, the only
>economically viable (and enviromentally sound) way
>to make alcohol fuel is to start with sugar.
>
>John
Brazil runs almost exclusively on cane ethanol.

< snips >

>> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
>> wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
>> thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
>> without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.
>
>Washington allows it. I've found that my ancient 500cc motorcycle gets
>50mpg with ethanol, 60 without. And the ethanol does bad things to tank
>liners in old bikes.
>
>BTW, eliminating 10% ethanol increases my bikes mileage by 20%. Tell me
>how I'm lowering pollution with ethanol :-).


This < Canada Natural Resources > website

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/fcr-rcf/public/index-e.cfm

shows some fuel economy data -
- example - 2013 Dodge 1500 8 cyl. auto pickup -

on regular gas 14.6 litres per 100 km
on E85 ethanol 21.8 litres per 100 km

"regular gas" might be some ethanol content ?
in your area. ? dunno.

A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM !
for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?

Geeeze ... am I missing something ?

John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 12/29/2015 3:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:58:30 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
>>> cleaning only in the Premium.
>>>
>>> But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in
>>> all grades.
>>
>> I'm inclined to think that "nitrogen enriched" stuff is all
>> just marketting blather.
>>
>> If you want my opinion, the best gasoline additive is Chevron's
>> Techron. But I don't think there's much difference between
>> any of the top brands.
>
> Techron is good, but the "nitrogen enriched" is a LITTLE more than
> advertizing blather. There is a big difference between run-of-the
> -mill gasoline and third tier.

This is true but to be clear Tier 1 is not strictly the premium fuel,
rather the brand. Exxon has always had detergents and additives but
only relatively recently has qualified as a Tier 1 provider.

The Top Tier standards must apply to all grades of gasoline that a
company sells, whether it is economy (low-octane) or premium
(high-octane).[2] However, premium gasolines may contain even higher
levels of detergent additives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST), Michael
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
high octane fuel does not cause an engine to run hotter, contrary to
common belief. However, running gasahol MAY cause the engine to run
cooler due to reduced energy content. The chances of damage due to
running "hooch" FAR outway any possibility of damage from running
high-test fuel.
If the octane is too low (and adding oil lowers the octane) an engine
will detonate, and detonation transfers more heat to the piston, cyl,
and head by disrupting the "boundary layers" causing the engine to
overheat quickly.

In aircraft, the first sign of incipient detonation is a simultanious
increase in head temperature and drop in EGT (Exhaust Gas
Temperature).

When that happens you have seconds to pull back on the throttle to
avoid engine damage and possible engine failure. Doesn't matter if
it's a 2 stroke ultralight or a 4 stroke Lycosaurus

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:24:40 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>
>Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
>additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.
>
>Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
>ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
>fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
>timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.
>
>In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
>would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.
>
>Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
>and make adjustments accordingly.
>
>If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
>timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
>could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
>naturally running a bit hotter.
Have you actually seen or heard of a chain saw with electronic spark
control and knock sensing???????
Some of the high-tech 2 stroke direct injection snowmobile engines are
getting pretty fancy in the control department -

[email protected] wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
>>>> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>>>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>>>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>
>>> Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
>>> compression to require premium gas.
>>
>>In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>>higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>>detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>>alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>>
>>So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
>>premium.
>>
>Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
>slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
>gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
>hooch.
>Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
>high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.

There are several joints around Ontario selling ethanol-free 87 "regular" gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:48:46 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in news:h6318btmbetdivcklbp6av5kmi157ut0rd@
>4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how
>>>much depends on whatever other additives they're using,
>>>and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting
>>>ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective
>>>octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such
>>>as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.
>>>
>> The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane
>> improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator"
>> It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions
>> of the vehicle.
>
>You are confusing two different things here, both of
>which ethanol happens to be good for.
>
>One is octane rating. Raw gas (no additives) has an octane
>rating (*) of around 70, so something has to be added to
>raise it to a useful level. Historically that was tetra
>ethyl lead, which of course is now banned. Ethanol has an
>octane rating of around 110. So adding ethanol to gas is
>a very effective way to raise the octane rating.

Hydrocracked/catalytic cracked first run gasoline has an octane of up
to 90 with no additives.

There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
is an "aki" or antiknock index..

>
>The second is oxygenation. In ideal conditions there is
>enough oxygen in the air entering the engine to completely
>burn the fuel. Ideal conditions don't always occur, so
>a fuel additive that contains oxygen can help get to
>complete combustion. Ethanol contains oxygen, so it is
>effective as an oxygenator.
>
>Until 2007 there was a Federal requirement (in the US) to
>include oxygenators in fuel. That requirement no longer
>exists. The reason ethanol is added to gasoline now is
>for it's value as an octane booster.

Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
premium (in very many cases)???

The ethanol is added to regular gas because that is the easiest way to
sell the volume of ethanol mandated. The total amount of gasoline sold
in an area needs to contain, say, 9% ethanol (maximum limit is 10%)
and 99% of gas sold is regular (or a mix containing regular) so they
do not HAVE to put it in the premium gas.

Also, the ethanol is not added at the refinery (at least in many
cases) it is added to the tanker at the depot - so the regular gas at
the depot has to be 97 octane without ethanol.

I don't "buy" the ethanol as octane booster arguement - at least here
in Ontario. Does it increase Octane? Sure. Is octane the reason it is
added? No. It is added because it is mandated. It is mandated because
it is an oxygenator. The octane boost is just a bonus. (which helps
mitigate thedilution of the fuel energy caused by the dilution of the
fuel with low energy ethanol in the eye of those who don't understand
octane requirements and energy content and the fact they are not
connected in any way)
>
>(* octane rating is a confusing thing, because there are
>several common ways of testing it, which give different
>numbers. In North America the AKI (or R+M/2) method is
>used, which is what the numbers above are based on).
>
>John

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 03:32:55 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
>>>>> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>>>>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>>>>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
>>>> compression to require premium gas.
>>>
>>>In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>>>higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>>>detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>>>alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>>>
>>>So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
>>>premium.
>>>
>>Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
>>slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
>>gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
>>hooch.
>>Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
>>high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.
>
>There are several joints around Ontario selling ethanol-free 87 "regular" gas.
>
>http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

The majority being marinas, the rest independents and specialty or
farm fuel distributors.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:58:50 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
>>thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
>>cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
>> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
>>wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
>>thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
>>without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.
>
>There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
>gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:
>
>http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

Wow! >700 Sq. Mi. per gas station. They shouldn't make it so easy to
get!

John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@
>4ax.com:
>
>
>> There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
>> is an "aki" or antiknock index..
>
>Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
>trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
>yourself in the foot...
>
>> Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
>> premium (in very many cases)???
>
>It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know
>why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax
>policy.
>
>In the US, ethanol is used because:
>
>a) it's an effective octane booster
>b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives
>c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives
>d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE

e) intense pressure exerted by the Corn Ethanol Lobby

http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/political-footprint-of-the-corn-ethanol-lobby-2015
http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/21/how-pandering-to-iowas-ethanol-lobby-hurts-america/
https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/exposing-corn-based-ethanol-hoax-solution-peak-oil

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 15:08:05 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>> higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>> detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>> alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>
>Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
>not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
>think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
>now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
>other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

Might be true in the USA, but the total additive package in tier 3
premium gas is significantly different than in the same brand's
regular gasoline
>
>I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
>I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
>and I haven't seen that anywhere.
>
>John
Shell Canada has gone on record saying there WILL BE no ethanol in
their premium gasoline.

If you look at PurGas.org? the vast majority of stations selling
ethanol free gasoline sell only premium ethanol free gasoline. The
only major resellers of ethanol free regular are marinas.

Mogas for aircraft use is also ethsanol free premium. No Mogas STC
allows ethanol fuel.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
> wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
> thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
> without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

Washington allows it. I've found that my ancient 500cc motorcycle gets
50mpg with ethanol, 60 without. And the ethanol does bad things to tank
liners in old bikes.

BTW, eliminating 10% ethanol increases my bikes mileage by 20%. Tell me
how I'm lowering pollution with ethanol :-).





--
It's turtles, all the way down!

On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.

> Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.

I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.

It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
hurt the engine)

I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...

Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
in the gas, it doesn't matter much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Michael wrote:

> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
> Any thoughts? Thanks.

I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm tractor.
Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is Premium. I've never
noticed any difference in how hot my engines run on it, and I have two Stihl
chainsaws that I use the stuff in. The place where I get my saws serviced
strongly recommends only using ethanol free fuel in them, which by
definition, means premium gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from
using the stuff.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

John McCoy wrote:

>
> I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
> I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
> and I haven't seen that anywhere.
>

It very common where I live John. Well advertised on the pumps as well.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
> But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
> won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
> angry"

Holy Cow! I own some really good chainsaws - both are Stihls, and neither
will start on the first or second pull unless you've been using them for a
while. Cold - they're both good for at least 4 pulls before they cough, and
then a couple more after you back the choke off. In fact, in my 62 years,
with at least 45 of those holding on to a chainsaw, I've never owned or used
a saw that would start cold on one or two pulls. I put up 5 full chords of
firewood every year, and I'm no novice to chainsaw use, nor even a backyard
user. You've either got some good mojo going on up there, or I think
there's something you're not telling us.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
> with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.

Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there today,
or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're talking about
sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Michael wrote:
>>
>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
>>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which
>>> was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the
>>> machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>
>> I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm
>> tractor. Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is
>> Premium. I've never noticed any difference in how hot my engines
>> run on it, and I have two Stihl chainsaws that I use the stuff in.
>> The place where I get my saws serviced strongly recommends only
>> using ethanol free fuel in them, which by definition, means premium
>> gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from using the stuff.

> Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
> wallet.

Indeed - but using that ethanol crap will hurt yer pocketbook even more.
Ask me how I'd know - have you priced the newer fuel lines that are
impervious to ethanol? Of course you never really come to understand these
costs until that day you go out to use the machine and it's pouring fuel all
over itself through the deteriorated lines. It's almost highway robbery!
Don't even get me going on trying to rebuild carbs on small tools like
string trimmers...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/28/15 8:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
>>>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which
>>>> was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the
>>>> machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>
>>> I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm
>>> tractor. Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is
>>> Premium. I've never noticed any difference in how hot my engines
>>> run on it, and I have two Stihl chainsaws that I use the stuff in.
>>> The place where I get my saws serviced strongly recommends only
>>> using ethanol free fuel in them, which by definition, means premium
>>> gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from using the stuff.
>
>> Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
>> wallet.
>
> Indeed - but using that ethanol crap will hurt yer pocketbook even more.
> Ask me how I'd know - have you priced the newer fuel lines that are
> impervious to ethanol? Of course you never really come to understand these
> costs until that day you go out to use the machine and it's pouring fuel all
> over itself through the deteriorated lines. It's almost highway robbery!
> Don't even get me going on trying to rebuild carbs on small tools like
> string trimmers...
>

I have a flex fuel and I refuse to use the E-85 stuff. Sure, it won't
do any damage to my vehicle but why would I want to get 30% less millage
and pay almost the same price as gas?

It pisses me off that the corn ethanol is mandated by the government to
subsidize their failed corn farmer policies. We're paying for it with
our tax dollars, yet it still costs almost as much as regular gasoline.
So why the #U@& would I pay as much for it as gas and get 30% lower
millage. If I'm subsidizing it, it should be much cheaper.

Also, how the h3!! does it fluctuate perfectly in sync with gasoline
prices when it only contains 15% gas? When gas is 2 bucks a gallon,
E-85 is around 2 bucks. When gas is 4 bucks a gallon, E-85 is around 4
bucks when there's no fluctuation in the ethanol supply and the price is
controlled. Who's doing that math? What a rip-off.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>


>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there
>> today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're
>> talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
>
> Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that
> would serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to
> professionals that draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws used
> indoors along with electric powered bandsaw mills.

Electric chainsaws have definitelty been around for a while now, but my
point was the real usefulness of these saws - not the availability of them.
As I said - unless you're looking to cut up a small limb a coupld of times a
year, they are not practical.

I live in a log home, so I own an electric chainsaw (not one of my Stihls) -
saves on the fumes, etc. (When you remodel; a log home, a chainsaw is your
tool of choice). That kind of use though is not what 99% of people think
about when they thinki about chainsaw use.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:27:53 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> Holy Cow! I own some really good chainsaws - both are Stihls, and
>> neither will start on the first or second pull unless you've been
>> using them for a while. Cold - they're both good for at least 4
>> pulls before they cough, and then a couple more after you back the
>> choke off. In fact, in my 62 years, with at least 45 of those
>> holding on to a chainsaw, I've never owned or used a saw that would
>> start cold on one or two pulls. I put up 5 full chords of firewood
>> every year, and I'm no novice to chainsaw use, nor even a backyard
>> user. You've either got some good mojo going on up there, or I
>> think there's something you're not telling us.
>
>
> OK - when I get the saw out I pull it through once or twice with the
> choke on, and the ignition off so it won't tear my arm off - then turn
> on the ignition and give it a couple good sharp pulls - Usually
> running on the second pull with the ignition on.. Usually barks at me
> on the first "powered on" pull. - knock the choke in one notch and
> pull again. It either starts or tears the rope out of my hand. I don;t
> know if the saw is stock or not - I've only owned it for about 25
> years.

Ahhh-So... That makes more sense. Pulling it over those couple of times on
full choke is the same thing as if you had the ignition on. More like the
way my saws behave. Stone cold, my big saw usually takes 3 or 4 pulls on
full choke before it coughs, then starts on one or two more pulls with the
choke set back to half. The little saw generally starts with about the same
amount of pulls - maybe a pull less.

As an aside, the saw I had prior to buying my 361 was an 034AV (Stihl). I
owned it for twenty years or more and it was a great saw - never let me
down. But - all of its life it was a cold blooded saw - right from day one.
Seemed to pull it forever to get it started cold. Carb was adjusted
correctly, good spark plug, etc - but.. it got you warmed up for a day of
firewood just in the process of starting it. One day it would not start. I
knew that could be fixed, but I used it as my excuse to buy a new saw.
Bought my 361 and had the guys at the shop go through the 034, which my son
took posession of when they were done. If I remember correctly, they put a
carb on it - or maybe they rebuilt the carb, not sure. Once my son got it,
that thing started like it never had before - sometimes easier than my new
saw. Still running strong for him now, and he puts up about the same amount
of firewood as I do every year.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:33:02 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an
>>> end with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>>
>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out
>> there today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless
>> you're talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
> I took down a complete cherry tree except for the bottom 4 feet of
> trunk with a 10 inch electric on a pole. Line powered - not battery -
> in less ths 3 hours. The tree was higher than my 2 story house. I
> used the electric pole saw because there was no way I was taking the
> remington up into the tree. I limbed it from a 12 foot stepladder with
> the pole saw completely extended.
>

I don't doubt that, but it's more of a one-off story. You couldn't use that
saw routinely like you use your Remington.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

> I was shocked when I went to buy some Tygon fuel line.. The local
> small engine shop wanted over 4 bucks for a foot.
> It's about 2 bucks at Aircraft Spruce

I've paid upwards of $8 per foot locally when I was in a pinch. Man...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an
>>>> end with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>>
>>> Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out
>>> there today, or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless
>>> you're talking about sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a
>>> year.
>>
>> Things have evolved quite a bit... Stihl has some electric saws that
>> would serve a homeowner well... and one that is marketed to
>> professionals that draws 15 amps. I've seen electric Sithl saws
>> used indoors along with electric powered bandsaw mills.
>>
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/mse170/
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/farm-and-ranch-saws/mse210cbq/
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/professional-saws/mse250cq/
>>
>> They've got a battery powered saw too which would probably serve a
>> homeowner's occasional needs (not useful to me though!).
>>
>> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/msa160cbq/
>
> My plug-in from Sears handls considerably more than "a 1 inch branch".

No doubt, but that class of saw is not intended to do the work of a gasoline
powered saw, which is the only comment I was trying to make in response to
John's comment.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:


> No, but some of the new 40 volt lithium ion saws will do anything my
> old Partner will do except gas me out and burn my finger if I get my
> hand too close to the muffler. The remington has a bit more "cajones"
> than the big partner.

Sorry, but I'm really not familair with either the Remington or the Partner.
What I will say is that no 40v saw will keep up with my Stihl 361 out in the
woods for the day of puttin up firewood. Show me one that will drive a 25"
bar, and cut all day long, as fast as mine will hog through a 36" maple.
Going back to what my original point was - I was responding to John's claim
that the gasoline saw was on its way out in deference to electric models. I
simply disagree with this asseriton and think it only comes from a guy that
does not use a chainsaw.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> I think you vastly under estimate what an electric can do if you
> believe that they are only good for a small limb a couple of times a
> year. I have owned both and in my yard I would choose electric over
> gas if both were sitting on my work bench and ready to go.
>

Turn of a phrase, and a matter of perspective I guess. I would consider
most of what you do in your yard to be small work a couple of times a year,
compared to putting up a season's worth of firewood. Remember - I do own an
electric chainsaw as well as my two gas saws, so I do appreciate what it can
do. With that said - it would in no way keep up with even the small gas saw
in cutting through something like a 10" limb.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

John Grossbohlin wrote:

> This "capacity" thing is true of pretty much all of power tools...
>
> I'm now debating whether I should buy a bigger chainsaw as I've got a
> couple big trees to cut down and my 18" Stihl MS271 (about 3.5 hp)
> seems inadequate. Both are about 36" in diameter at chest height, one
> an ash and the other a maple. I'm looking at the Stihl MS461... about
> 6 hp and will take much longer bars. It's not inexpensive but it
> would cost way less than hiring a tree service to take down those two
> big trees and I'd have it for other serious tree cutting. I took
> Game of Logging training, have done a lot of studying, and have
> felled quite a number of trees so those big ones look to be
> reasonable tasks to me... except for the capacity of my MS271 that
> is. I've taken down trees taller than those two but not as big in
> diameter...

How big of a bar will your 271 take? I've got a 25" bar on my 361 and the
Stihl dealer said that's the longest bar he would recommend for it, and
still use a full chain. It just hogs through wood so it's clear the saw can
handle that much bar. Don't know what your 271 could handle but it may be
that you can get into a bar long enough the drop those trees with two cuts.
I've had to do that in the past with big trees that my bar couldn't just eat
through. It would be both cheaper and a lot easier on the back to manage
that 271 with a longer bar, than to step up to a 461. The other
consideration is to put on a longer bar (one that is longer than recommended
for your saw), and go to a skip chain. It won't hog as fast as a full
chain, but is still a serviceable tool - especially if you don't have
continued use for a big saw like the 461. I should think - without looking
it up, that your 271 would take a 20" bar, which would then be enough to
drop and block your big trees, albeit with two cuts.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/28/2015 4:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> You could drive the stage 3 Mini Moke into the shop with the key turned off after you got it
> warm........

Now that made me chuckle. Good way to start the new year, with a laugh.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST)
Michael <[email protected]> wrote:

> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.

how was it helpful to run hotter

was it because of low ambient temps


you could try aviation fuel at 100 octane

On 12/28/2015 8:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/28/15 8:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
>>>>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which
>>>>> was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the
>>>>> machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm
>>>> tractor. Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is
>>>> Premium. I've never noticed any difference in how hot my engines
>>>> run on it, and I have two Stihl chainsaws that I use the stuff in.
>>>> The place where I get my saws serviced strongly recommends only
>>>> using ethanol free fuel in them, which by definition, means premium
>>>> gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from using the stuff.
>>
>>> Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
>>> wallet.
>>
>> Indeed - but using that ethanol crap will hurt yer pocketbook even more.
>> Ask me how I'd know - have you priced the newer fuel lines that are
>> impervious to ethanol? Of course you never really come to understand
>> these
>> costs until that day you go out to use the machine and it's pouring
>> fuel all
>> over itself through the deteriorated lines. It's almost highway robbery!
>> Don't even get me going on trying to rebuild carbs on small tools like
>> string trimmers...
>>
>
> I have a flex fuel and I refuse to use the E-85 stuff. Sure, it won't
> do any damage to my vehicle but why would I want to get 30% less millage
> and pay almost the same price as gas?
>
> It pisses me off that the corn ethanol is mandated by the government to
> subsidize their failed corn farmer policies. We're paying for it with
> our tax dollars, yet it still costs almost as much as regular gasoline.
> So why the #U@& would I pay as much for it as gas and get 30% lower
> millage. If I'm subsidizing it, it should be much cheaper.
>
> Also, how the h3!! does it fluctuate perfectly in sync with gasoline
> prices when it only contains 15% gas? When gas is 2 bucks a gallon,
> E-85 is around 2 bucks. When gas is 4 bucks a gallon, E-85 is around 4
> bucks when there's no fluctuation in the ethanol supply and the price is
> controlled. Who's doing that math? What a rip-off.
>
>

It is the old term, "what the market will bear". Same goes for the
industry as a whole.

Ten years ago gasoline was at record highs. Prices were sold as supply
and demand. There was no shortage, just a lack of competition.
So again, "what the market would bear".

In recent years there has been more competition and even more supply and
up until relatively recently the much lower prices at the pump was
profitable for all producers. Supply and demand could finally be the
reason for prices.

NOW there is a huge supply with basically the same demand. More
competition has ultimately driven prices down at the pumps, not the fact
that there is more supply.

BUT some HUGE producers are continuing to over produce, and at a loss,
to drive the smaller competitors out of business. Then there will be
less competition and prices will absolutely go back up to "what the
market will bear".

There is a reason the Shell, Chevron, Exxon, Phillips, Conoco, Texaco,
and "name your major brand" have joined forces, to eliminate half the
competition.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:49:54 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
>> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
>Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
>compression to require premium gas.
>

Tell my Remington saw that. Theoretical is something north of 12:
effective is something around 10.

It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.

My old Partner, on the other hand is around 9:1 theoretical and
5.something effective. The little remington has more OOMPF than the
big partner. The partner would likely run on kerosene if you could get
it lit - the remington will overheat on regular gas, but runs great on
high-test.

Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.

>If you use the chainsaw frequently, regular gas is fine.
>If you use it intermittantly then try to find ethanol-
>free gas, since ethanol sitting in the carb will eventually
>eat away the insides and you'll need a carb rebuild.
>
>If you can, run it dry when you're done using it,
>whichever kind of gas you use.
>
>John

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:58 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 12/27/2015 8:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> It'l rip your arm off if it doesn't start.
>A shot of ether and the sucker starts like a champ.

Doesn't need ether - it USUALLY starts on the first or second pull.
But if it decides to balk instead, it snaps back with fury!!!!. I
won't start it on a ladder or in a tree. Too dangerous if it "gets
angry"
>
>> Makes a difference what oil you are running as well - and how much.
Doesn';t seem to.
>
>I've had the same chain saw since around 1978. The first tree I cut up
>it blew up. My neighbor, a farmer the first 20 years of life, owned a
>two man auto repair shop the next 50 years, and a lawnmower repair shop
>the next 25 years, told me my mistake was using the 50-1 chainsaw oil
>mixture recommend by Sears. He said use regular 20w non-detergent in
>something like 9-1 or 20-1, can't recall, it's written on my gas can in
>the shed. He said it might smoke a bit, and be hard to start but it
>will never freeze up. Arguing with a 95 year old dude that still worked
>on small engines 9-9 6 days a week seemed silly, so I gave it a shot.
>
>It was always hard to start, so didn't notice a difference, but learned
>to use ether to get er running (even though I was often told ether would
>hurt the engine)
>
>I rebuilt the engine, took his advice, and now, almost 40 years later,
>the saw still runs great. I haven't used it much lately, getting old,
>but last I used it it still ran, and smoked like a champ...
I tend to use 40:1 instead of 50:1 so it does smoke - but it is close
to 50 years old and has never been apart. And other than the extreme
high compression kickback, it is NOT hard to start. I run ethanol free
premium, and even after sitting for 2 years with a full (sealed) tank,
it started on the second pull.
>
>Also, as far as premium gas in a chainsaw, my guess is once you dump oil
>in the gas, it doesn't matter much.
If 93 octane drops to 87, think where 87 goes!!!! The more oil, the
lower the octane - one advantage of the lighter mixes.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>
>
>
>The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
>thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
>cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
>wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
>thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
>without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.
>
I use alcohol-free gas for my small machines (yard tractor on down).
It's readily available, though expensive, here in Georgia. It doesn't
surprise me that it's illegal in IL. Nothing IL does surprises me.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:20:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Michael wrote:
>
>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around
>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
>I use only ethanol free gas for all of my small engines and my farm tractor.
>Around here the only ethanol free gas you can get is Premium. I've never
>noticed any difference in how hot my engines run on it, and I have two Stihl
>chainsaws that I use the stuff in. The place where I get my saws serviced
>strongly recommends only using ethanol free fuel in them, which by
>definition, means premium gas. I've not heard of any ramifications from
>using the stuff.
Using higher octane than required won't hurt anything except your
wallet.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:38:38 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 12/27/2015 5:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for
>>> my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>>> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>>
>> Waste of money. Two stroke engines don't have enough
>> compression to require premium gas.
>
>In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>
>So If yo want to avoid alcohol in the fuel, which attracts moisture, buy
>premium.
>
Same many places here. The "regular" gas is 87 minimum octane - may be
slightly higher with up to 10% hooch. The premium is a "tier 3"
gasoline of 91 octane and in the case of Shell (and some others) no
hooch.
Mid-Grade is a mixer pump, blending the hooch-poluted regular with the
high end premium - which yields up to 5% hooch and 89 octane.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:33:02 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> The day of the gasoline consumer saw is likely coming close to an end
>> with new electric saw technology advancing very quickly.
>
>Doubt that greatly! There's no viable electric alternative out there today,
>or even on the horizon, even for the consumer - unless you're talking about
>sawing up a 1" branch two or three times a year.
I took down a complete cherry tree except for the bottom 4 feet of
trunk with a 10 inch electric on a pole. Line powered - not battery -
in less ths 3 hours. The tree was higher than my 2 story house. I
used the electric pole saw because there was no way I was taking the
remington up into the tree. I limbed it from a 12 foot stepladder with
the pole saw completely extended.

After I had it down to the 4 or 5 foot stump I pulled out the
remington, the noticed there was a tree service truck just finishing
up down the street so I asked them how much to finish the stump and
chew up all the branches so I didn't need to haul it to the dump.
Less than an hour later there was nothing left but some leaves and
twigs. (and the stump chunks I had other plans for)

Electric Comet <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST)
>Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was
>> helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine.
>
>how was it helpful to run hotter
>
>was it because of low ambient temps
>
>
>you could try aviation fuel at 100 octane

Aside from the
fact that that wouldn't be legal or smart in many
jurisdictions (that's 100LL, and I'll allow you
to research what the "LL" stands for, and the restrictions
on the use of 100LL nationwide, or the efforts to phase it out).

On 12/29/2015 3:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:28:08 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@
>> 4ax.com:
>>
>>
>>> There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
>>> is an "aki" or antiknock index..
>>
>> Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
>> trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
>> yourself in the foot...
> t octane only goes to 100 because you can NOT have
> aoiso-octane/heptane mixture more than 100% iso-octane.Check your
> facts. Anything over 100 is AKI
>>> Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
>>> premium (in very many cases)???
>>
>> It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know
>> why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax
>> policy.
>
> It's because if you have to sell a certain amount of ethanol, put it
> where you will sell it fastest.
>
>
>>
>> In the US, ethanol is used because:
>>
>> a) it's an effective octane booster
>> b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives
>> c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives
>> d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE
>>
>> Incidently, ethanol isn't "added to gas at 10%". The amount
>> used varies, from 5% to 10%, depending on the octane rating
>> desired.
>>
>
> Mabee in the US of A, but not here in Canada. Ethanol is used as an
> oxygenator up here. The extra octane is just a "bonus" if you can call
> anything that reduces the energy output of a fuel a "bonus"
>
> Up here it is "may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume"
>> John
>

Exactly! Typically alcohol reduces gas mileage. My Tundra which was
designed to run or regular gets better gas mileage with premium from the
same gasoline station. Now that the price difference out weighs the gas
mileage benefits I have cut back from using premium and over all my gas
mileage has suffered.
Now there are other reasons that I get better gas mileage from premium
but most likely the lack of alcohol is just one of them.

On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:
> I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
Should not matter at all, Premium over regular is simply more of an
additive to increase octane to help prevent engine knock.

Vehicles have knock sensors that listen for knock and will retard the
ignition timing to help prevent engine knock with cheaper grades of
fuel. Premium fuel typically helps to prevent knock and the ignition
timing will electronically advance for better power and gas mileage.

In the old days when you set the ignition timing manually the engines
would truly run hotter if you advanced the timing too much.

Relatively modern engines these days monitor all of the engine functions
and make adjustments accordingly.

If you chain saw has an electronic ignition and a knock sensor the
timing could be advancing with premium fuel and running hotter. Or you
could simply be getting a more complete burn with the better fuel and
naturally running a bit hotter.

Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> wrote:

>The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best
>thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart
>cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL.
> The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will
>wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good
>thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures
>without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.

There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free
gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:28:08 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@
>4ax.com:
>
>
>> There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it
>> is an "aki" or antiknock index..
>
>Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're
>trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting
>yourself in the foot...
t octane only goes to 100 because you can NOT have
aoiso-octane/heptane mixture more than 100% iso-octane.Check your
facts. Anything over 100 is AKI
>> Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to
>> premium (in very many cases)???
>
>It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know
>why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax
>policy.

It's because if you have to sell a certain amount of ethanol, put it
where you will sell it fastest.


>
>In the US, ethanol is used because:
>
>a) it's an effective octane booster
>b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives
>c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives
>d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE
>
>Incidently, ethanol isn't "added to gas at 10%". The amount
>used varies, from 5% to 10%, depending on the octane rating
>desired.
>

Mabee in the US of A, but not here in Canada. Ethanol is used as an
oxygenator up here. The extra octane is just a "bonus" if you can call
anything that reduces the energy output of a fuel a "bonus"

Up here it is "may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume"
>John

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 15:49:11 -0500, "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:50:42 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael" wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my
>>>>chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful,
>>>>but
>>>>I wonder if this is not the best >thing for the machine. Any thoughts?
>>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>The manual with my saw recommends a minimum of 89 octane... I use ethanol
>>>free premium gas along with synthetic 2 cycle oil (STIHL HP Ultra) that
>>>has
>>>fuel stabilizers. In the past year or so one of the chain convenience
>>>stores
>>>started carrying ethanol free premium gas and they are adding store
>>>locations steadily over time--I've got one 7/10ths of a mile from my house
>>>now. I started using this mix in all my Stihl 2 stroke equipment (string
>>>trimmer, hedge clipper, chainsaw), and the gas in my mower, and everything
>>>runs better.
>>>
>>>I would expect your saw to run cooler, and better, with the premium fuel
>>>as
>>>compared to say 87 octane based on my saw's manual:
>>>
>>>"Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no
>>>more than 10% ethanol content."
>>>"Fuel with a lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This,
>>>in
>>>turn, increases the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."
>>>
>>>John
>> I run nothing but ethanol free premium gas in ALL of my small engine
>> equipment. For the small amount of fuel I put through them in a year,
>> the difference in cost is a non-issue, particularly considering the
>> possible costs of the alternatives. A screwed up carb or a scuffed
>> piston or siezed engine is too costly to consider trying to save the
>> 7 cents a liter or whatever.
>
>I do the same. I have a 4 cycle mini-rototiller with a Honda mini engine. It
>has been a problem from new, had it serviced and not much better. It was
>hard to start and would stall after running a few minutes, and then only run
>a minute or so after starting hot. This was with regular 87 gas. I also have
>a Honda weed wacker with a mini 4 stroke engine that runs fine with regular
>87 fuel.
>
>Switched all my small engines to Shell premium, they run great and even the
>difficult mini-rototiller Honda now runs properly with only a change of fuel
>to premium.
>
>The added cost of premium is insignificant compared to frequent servicing
>required when they don't run properly. By the way, I have a Honda
>self-propelled walk behind mower that is now over 25 years old and has never
>needed service other than oil changes. It starts on the first pull.
Those things are sensitive, and with no carb adjustment available
they run just enough too lean on Hooch that they hardly run at all..

On 12/28/2015 9:23 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>>> higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>>> detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>>> alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>>
>> Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
>> not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
>> think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
>> now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
>> other than octane boosters it's generally not so.
>>
>> I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
>> I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
>> and I haven't seen that anywhere.
>
> Different strokes for different folk, John.
>
> Saw Shell advertising ethanol free premium up in Wisconsin. Not so here
> in Illinois (at least not in the NE corner of the state - down south
> it's available in some areas).
>
> I think, but not sure, that Shell's ethanol free was tied in to their
> "V-Power" blend or somesuch
>
>
That is the way it is in Texas/Houston

On 12/28/2015 9:08 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> In Texas there is more differences in Premium and regular than just
>> higher obtain. Typically 3 trades of fuel. Regular, often with fewer
>> detergents and more alcohol. Premium, more detergents and often no
>> alcohol. Mid grade fuel comes from the regular and Premium tanks.
>
> Typically differences in detergents are between brands,
> not between fuel grades. The vendors would like you to
> think there's extra "good stuff" in premium (especially
> now that it costs $0.50 or more above regular), but
> other than octane boosters it's generally not so.

Actually Shell advertizes Nitrogen, V-power Nitro+ Premium, for better
cleaning only in the Premium.

But typically most all better brand fuels have similar additives in all
grades.



>
> I am also dubious that premium would be alcohol-free.
> I suspect if it was, it would be prominently advertised,
> and I haven't seen that anywhere.

Well if it was advertized alcohol free they would certainly catch a
bunch of flack from the tree huggers.

Down here their pumps only claim "May" have up to 10% alcohol.


>
> John
>