Howdy,
I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
will retard the setup of white glue.
Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?
This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
could.
Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the tests
> it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water resistant.
Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.
Andy
Kenneth wrote:
> 422 Barrier Coat Additive
>
> A proprietary blend designed to improve cured epoxy's
> moisture-exclusion effectiveness. 422 is used as a barrier
> coating additive to help prevent gelcoat blistering. 422
> also increases the epoxy's abrasion resistance. Cures to a
> light gray color. Add to mixed resin/hardener at the rate of
> 15 to 20% by weight-3 tablespoons per 8 fl. oz. epoxy
> (approximately 32 oz. per B group).
Aluminum powder (422), as described above, is used as an additive
specifically to provide a barrier coat (About 5 mils per coat max)
over a pock marked (blistered) polyester surface on a fiberglass boat.
It is strictly a repair process.
Definitely not an adhesive application.
> But, it is my understanding that it is not completely
> impervious to water damage either. The fact that West
> Systems sells an additive to improve the moisture-exclusion
> effectiveness of its own (highly regarded) epoxy would seem
> to support my understanding.
>
> Might I be wrong? Of course...
It is a matter of molecule size.
There are only about 4-5 manufacturers of base resin (part A)in the world.
Ciba, Dow & Shell come to mind.
There are litterly thousands of formulators such as Gougeon (West)who
provide epoxy systems for final application.
Basic epoxy for wood working applications can be considered waterproof.
You can improve the "waterproofness" by reducing the permeability
(reject smaller molecules) of that surface by applying epoxy coatings
specifically engineered for that task.
It is strictly a matter of chemistry.
The fact remains that general purpose epoxy is basically waterproof.
Lew
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:36:25 GMT, "CW"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In other words, you don't know. O.K.
>
>"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Let's cut to the chase.
>> >
>> >What epoxies aren't waterproof?
>> >
>> >Lew
>>
>> Hi Lew,
>>
>> If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
>> at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
>> will learn more.
>>
>> All the best,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
Hi Lew & CW,
Let's separate this in to its two components (no pun
intended):
First you win. I am wrong, and you are right.
Now, with that out of the way, let's take a look at the
other component, epoxy.
You might want to check here: http://www.westsystem.com/
Click on "additives" and you will see this:
422 Barrier Coat Additive
A proprietary blend designed to improve cured epoxy's
moisture-exclusion effectiveness. 422 is used as a barrier
coating additive to help prevent gelcoat blistering. 422
also increases the epoxy's abrasion resistance. Cures to a
light gray color. Add to mixed resin/hardener at the rate of
15 to 20% by weight-3 tablespoons per 8 fl. oz. epoxy
(approximately 32 oz. per B group).
So, were I to follow your lead, I would ask that you find a
similar product sold to improve the "moisture-exclusion
effectiveness" of something that we would all agree is
waterproof such as "glass."
Might either of you want to "quit the bullshit" and "cut to
the chase" on that effort?
But seriously, it may be that we just understand the meaning
of the word "waterproof" differently.
I was certainly not trying to suggest that cured epoxy would
melt like a sugar cube when exposed to water.
But, it is my understanding that it is not completely
impervious to water damage either. The fact that West
Systems sells an additive to improve the moisture-exclusion
effectiveness of its own (highly regarded) epoxy would seem
to support my understanding.
Might I be wrong? Of course...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Howdy,
>
> I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
> will retard the setup of white glue.
>
> Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?
>
> This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
> but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
> could.
>
> Sincere thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Why not switch to a glue made for extended working time? I believe Titebond
II fills that description. If not someone will let us know.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:26:58 GMT, "CW"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Got to agree with you here Lew, I've never seen an epoxy that wasn't
>waterproof.
Hello again,
You might want to look into that further, particularly if
you are using epoxy for boat building...
No, not all epoxies are waterproof to a level acceptable for
marine applications.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:20:46 -0500, "C & E" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
>> will retard the setup of white glue.
>>
>> Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?
>>
>> This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
>> but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
>> could.
>>
>> Sincere thanks,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
>Why not switch to a glue made for extended working time? I believe Titebond
>II fills that description. If not someone will let us know.
>
Well be careful because it is easy to confuse things.
TiteBond II has a short open time of 5min
TiteBond III has an open time of 10min
Those are both from the Standard Line
They have a Shop Line and that includes the *Extend* products and
these have open times of 12-15min.....IIRC
BTW- Vinegar will act as a solvent for these glues and we've used it
to loosen up cured glue. I've heard of others using it to thin out
overly thick glue but I would not do this for any case where strength
was an issue.
You can also extend the open time of any wood glue by following a few
simple steps. It may be a bit messy but will work to give you an
additional 4-5min.
Apply a very generous coat of glue to both surfaces. and wait 2-3 min.
If possible go about some of your tasks. Then apply another generous
coat over the previous.
Because the first coat gets sucked into the wood, the second coat has
a tendency to cure slower than normal. The bond will be OK because the
first coat bonds well to the second coat and the first coat gets into
the woods pores.......I think...:)
I have tested the results of this several time and always get wood
failure.
Good Luck,
J
"Andy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the
>> tests
>> it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water
>> resistant.
>
> Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
> says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
> Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
> but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.
> Andy
>
I think the bottle is water proof, not the contents.
Swingman wrote:
> "Joe Bemier" wrote in message
>
>> TiteBond III has an open time of 10min
>
> I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away on
> this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
> minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.
>
> A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of confidence
> in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
> wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?
>
> (... and I sincerely hope I am just exercising a bit of age based cynicism.)
>
Coming from the boat building world, the only observation I can make
about wood working glues is that they are very useful as long as you
don't need long open times or a waterproof glue, because they provide
neither.
Epoxy is about your only real choice if you require long open times
and/or a waterproof adhesive, especially since Aerolite 306 is basically
no longer available.
Lew
Lew
CW wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> since Aerolite 306 is basically
>> no longer available.
>
> On what planet?
When is the last time you tried to buy some?
Even Aircraft Spruce & Specialty quit selling it.
Lew
There are still a number of places that sell it though none in the US as far
as I could find. Due to the recent buyout, it's likely to be this way for a
while but should straiten out eventually.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CW wrote:
> > "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> since Aerolite 306 is basically
> >> no longer available.
> >
> > On what planet?
>
> When is the last time you tried to buy some?
>
> Even Aircraft Spruce & Specialty quit selling it.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Joe Bemier" wrote in message
>
>> TiteBond III has an open time of 10min
>
> I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away
> on
> this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
> minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.
>
> A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of
> confidence
> in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
> wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?
>
Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the tests
it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water resistant.
This is not to say that TB III is not a very high quality glue. I prefer TB
III as it dries to a more natural wood color.
Got to agree with you here Lew, I've never seen an epoxy that wasn't
waterproof.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > Even that is not as simple as it might appear...
> >
> > Not all epoxy resins are waterproof.
>
> I don't know about your epoxy, but my epoxy is waterproof.
>
> Kind of works best for marine applications<G>.
>
> Lew
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> since Aerolite 306 is basically
> no longer available.
On what planet?
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 06:17:24 GMT, Lew Hodgett
<[email protected]> wrote:
>If you want waterproof, it's called epoxy, not TiteBond.
>
>Lew
Hi Lew,
Even that is not as simple as it might appear...
Not all epoxy resins are waterproof.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
> TiteBond III has an open time of 10min
I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away on
this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.
A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of confidence
in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?
(... and I sincerely hope I am just exercising a bit of age based cynicism.)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
Kenneth wrote:
> If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
> at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
> will learn more.
Having built a 55 ft boat with about 25,000 lbs of epoxy, not sure
what a boat building group is going to give me the formulators such as
Gougeon, S3, Jeffco, etc haven't already provided.
What epoxy isn't waterproof?
Cut the bull shit, fish or cut bait.
Lew
In other words, you don't know. O.K.
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Let's cut to the chase.
> >
> >What epoxies aren't waterproof?
> >
> >Lew
>
> Hi Lew,
>
> If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
> at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
> will learn more.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Let's cut to the chase.
>
>What epoxies aren't waterproof?
>
>Lew
Hi Lew,
If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
will learn more.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
"Andy" wrote in message
> Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
> says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
> Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
> but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.
It's a good PVA glue, and the first bottle I usually reach for ... but shame
on the wooddorker who blindly believes their marketing twaddle on both
counts.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/16/06
"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Howdy,
>
> I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
> will retard the setup of white glue.
>
> Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?
I don't know about retard but it will make white glue fail.