Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
TIA.
Steve
On Aug 18, 3:15=A0am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 12, 12:38=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks--that makes sense. =A0The importer claimed that =
in Europe they are
> > not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
> > about the glue.
>
> Which is what MDF is mostly made of. =A0He did know that, right?
Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bullshit-To-Make-A-Sale
scale than deadly generic glue.
Lines like the guy told the OP give me headaches. You have to figure
out if the guy believes it and is just misinformed, opening up the
question of what else he's misinformed about, or just making up stuff
to make a sale. Either way it's a red flag and I'd move on from the
guy, especially since the OP said the guy had an attitude.
R
On Aug 12, 11:12=A0am, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. =A0I assume the google problem has left some
> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. =A0We
> are considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. =A0The boxes are made of what he
> calls "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. =A0The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
> MDF, and a variety of other materials. =A0From my ignorant web searching,
> it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
> apparently more uniform). =A0Most sites also say they are heavier, more
> likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
> prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. =A0Our European guy says
> this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
> cabinets are made of "compressed wood". =A0To me that's a non-answer to m=
y
> concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
> likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? =A0Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> TIA.
> Steve
I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
built with care and quality.
I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
and save money (but it depends on where you live).
We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
shop hired an installer.
If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
look around.
RonB
On Aug 14, 6:50=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
>
> >>> Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]> =A0 =A0wrote in
> >>>news:[email protected]:
>
> >>>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know=
.
> >>>> First-time poster here. =A0I assume the google problem has left some
> >>>> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> >>>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. =
=A0We
> >>>> are considering a couple of places.
> >>>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. =A0The boxes are made of what =
he
> >>>> calls "compressed wood".
> >>>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. =A0The boxes =
are
> >>>> plywood.
> >>>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
> >>>> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. =A0From my ignora=
nt
> >>>> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
> >>>> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). =A0Most sites also say they a=
re
> >>>> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to war=
p,
> >>>> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. =A0Ou=
r
> >>>> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that al=
l
> >>>> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". =A0To me
> >>>> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> >>>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
> >>>> is likely to split when placing screws.
> >>>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> >>>> cabinet boxes? =A0Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> >>>> TIA.
> >>>> Steve
>
> >>> We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
> >>> Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. =A0Installed by remodeling contractor 11 =
years
> >>> ago. =A0Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. =A0Upp=
er
> >>> doors with glass. =A0There was an extensive choice available then. =
=A0They
> >>> have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
>
> >>> European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. =A0Ofte=
n it's
> >>> the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important th=
en
> >>> what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
> >>> handling etc.
>
> >>> Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. =A0YMMV
>
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks--that makes sense. =A0The importer claimed t=
hat in Europe they are
> >> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--somethin=
g
> >> about the glue.
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0When we moved into our current apartment a big sell=
ing point was the
> >> Poggenpohl cabinets. =A0But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
> >> under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask t=
he question.
>
> > I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
> > attitude. =A0Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
> > thing. =A0Historically the main plywood producing region in France was =
a
> > place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? =A0;)
>
> > The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
> > such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
> > spill puddle is left standing. =A0Little barely noticeable leaks will
> > eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.
>
> > That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
> > you let sleeping puddles lie.
>
> > R
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Are you stalking me? ;-)
> Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4.
> They'll get around to the roof--someday.
Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
One thing about your viewpoint on plywood - cabinet grade plywood is
better than the stuff used elsewhere in building a house, manufactured
with more stringent grading and frequently more and thinner plies of
veneer. Hopefully that will alleviate some of your concerns about the
plywood splitting from screws - it's really not an issue at all.
R
On Aug 14, 11:46=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> > On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, RicodJour<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> Helluva rain today, eh? =A0Couldn't go riding so I was poking around o=
n
> >> some rides sites. =A0I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday tryi=
ng
> >> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. =A0Th=
e
> >> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
> >> right - remind me to print out the maps next time. =A0;)
>
> > ...and remind me to proofread. =A0Said to turn left and the map showed
> > to turn right. =A0Sigh.
>
> > R
>
> We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
> daughter was at) until their flights home. =A0I had to drop one off at
> Newark airport, =A0and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
> not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
> can be, even at low speeds.
> I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
> =A0 Help like this I don't need.
Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
"The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
urns."
GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.
R
On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
>>>> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
>>>> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
>>>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
>>>> are considering a couple of places.
>>>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
>>>> calls "compressed wood".
>>>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
>>>> plywood.
>>>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
>>>> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
>>>> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
>>>> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
>>>> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
>>>> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
>>>> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
>>>> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
>>>> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
>>>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
>>>> is likely to split when placing screws.
>>>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
>>>> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>>
>>>> TIA.
>>>> Steve
>>
>>> We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
>>> Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
>>> ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
>>> doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
>>> have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
>>
>>> European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
>>> the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
>>> what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
>>> handling etc.
>>
>>> Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV
>>
>> Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
>> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
>> about the glue.
>> When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
>> Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
>> under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
>> The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.
>
> I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
> attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
> thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a
> place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? ;)
>
> The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
> such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
> spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will
> eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.
>
> That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
> you let sleeping puddles lie.
>
> R
Are you stalking me? ;-)
Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4.
They'll get around to the roof--someday.
Steve
"Steven Bornfeld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
> out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
> considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls
> "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
> MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it
> seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently
> more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to
> absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to
> fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how
> things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are
> made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
> likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> TIA.
> Steve
IMHO, cabinet grade plywood is superior to MDF or any of the other
"compressed wood" products.
I am a hobbyist woodworker but I have managed to pay for my workshop and
tools strictly from income derived from building cabinets, bookcases,
entertainment centers etc. for profit.
Many people prefer the look of "European" style but to me it seems a bit
"sterile" or plain. Much depends on the rest of the decor in the house and
especially the kitchen.
Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.
By the way, screws aren't used as prevalently in cabinets as you might
imagine.
Max
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:
>
>> Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
>> instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.
>
> On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
> Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":
>
> http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/MDF/ultrastock-mr.asp
>
> The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
> the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is
> much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and
> drawer fronts.
>
> Highly recommended!!
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Interesting! Thank you.
Max
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
built with care and quality.
I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
and save money (but it depends on where you live).
We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
shop hired an installer.
If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
look around.
RonB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, shut up, Ron. You're just trying to make me feel bad about living in
the desert. <G>
Max
RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote in
news:308ed393-437d-45a6-b4a2-41e3ee0f0aac@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>
> Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
> some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
> right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
>
*snip*
>
> R
That's what I like about maps. They can convey much more detailed
information than instructions with much less effort. Do you turn right,
bear right, or keep following the road (which itself goes right but only
slightly?)
Pictures are sometimes better than words, and words are sometimes better
than pictures. It takes wisdom to know which one to use.
Puckdropper
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
> side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
> turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
> crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
> through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
> go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
> idea.
>
There is a local fire department who have rescued a number of spanish
speaking tourists from a lake. It seems that the GPS directs them, in
spanish, to drive on a boat launching ramp into the lake. A classic case of
listening to a voice come out of the dashboard, instead of looking out the
front window. One factor is that these have all occurred at night. Srill...
Needless to say, the local rental companies are not happy with this. All
the cars were rentals.
Kinda like getting run over by a train. How do people do that? Or the
ladies who did not know they were pregnant. There are a lot of clueless
folks in the world.
RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote in
news:419efddb-8fd1-4544-8d29-a8b7601cf6b1@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
*snip*
>
> GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
> had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
> and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.
>
> R
We had one take us 20 miles out of the way to get ice cream. It never got
used for the rest of the trip. They're neat toys, and occasionally useful,
but require so much oversight as to be pointless.
Btw, if you ever are getting off I69 to head West on I80, don't head east
to the travel plaza that's just a mile away. You have to go all the way to
Ohio to turn around.
We've had our adventures with maps as well...
Puckdropper
Han wrote:
>
> I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
> wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
> Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the
> Porter Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and
> then a bit of 16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an
> example, and not where I live <smile>.
There are GPS units out there that supposedly do learn your travel habits,
and others that will suggest alternate routes based on such things as
traffic delays, etc. Not sure how well they really work though. Why would
you want a GPS to learn and suggest a route that you already know though?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I worked in Kitchen Design at Home Depot (Coordinator) and sold Kraft
Maid (Hardwood/plywood face frame style) as well as RTA "European
Style" MDF (Compressed wood fibers). There is no question that I would
prefer a (quality) plywood box over MDF type "boxes." Having said
that, I went twice for the price and got the MDF (first for a remodel
back in 1990, and later for another about five years later).
While I took every precaution to protect the exposed edges of the MDF
from moisture (sealing with Poly, caulking, etc.) I have had no issues
with moisture damage in either installation. If you have a Self-
Cleaning Oven, there are installation procedures necessary to protect
the adjacent cabinets from the heat.
The place I bought in NC had the cheap Lowes Oak face frame & door
cabinets on MDF boxes. The homeowner who installed them was not a
careful guy - but the cabinets held up fine. The Hardwood doors warped
a bit, but the boxes are still square and true!
So, from these personal experiences, I would say it's personal
finances that dictate the choice.
But, the differences between kitchen cabinets lies with more than the
materials used in the construction of the boxes - which are seldom
seen or heard from after the installation.
But any woman can tell you "it's the drawers stupid." Hold your
tongue and (listen &) watch the ladies shop the kitchen cabinets. Once
they get past caressing the marble counter tops (emitting a purring
sound in many cases), watch as they reach for the nearest drawer and,
ever so lightly, attempt to pull it out into the light of showroom.
Then, watch them urge it back in place with the slightest of touches,
tensing a bit in anticipation to see if it responds to the little
touch. If it's Blum, and effortlessly glides back into the deep
recesses of that top of the line cabinet - listen for a sigh or a
breath escaping slowly as it closes firmly.
If she moves on to a Pan Drawer base, start the video camera with
sound and post it to your tube.
Later, after the experience is over and you're lounging about with the
wine and Camels, ask her which she prefers in he boxes - plywood or
MDF . . .
On 8/15/2011 6:27 AM, Han wrote:
> RicodJour<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:419efddb-8fd1-4544-8d29-a8b7601cf6b1@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Aug 14, 11:46 pm, Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>>>> On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, RicodJour<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around
>>>>> o
>> n
>>>>> some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday
>>>>> tryi
>> ng
>>>>> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost.
>>>>> Th
>> e
>>>>> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed
>>>>> to go right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
>>>
>>>> ...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map
>>>> showed to turn right. Sigh.
>>>
>>>> R
>>>
>>> We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
>>> daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
>>> Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the
>>> car, not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the
>>> instructions can be, even at low speeds.
>>> I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of
>>> direction. Help like this I don't need.
>>
>> Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
>> bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
>> Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
>> from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
>> "The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
>> The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
>> high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
>> a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
>> bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
>> caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
>> urns."
>>
>> GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
>> had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
>> and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.
>>
>> R
>
> I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
> wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
> Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the Porter
> Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and then a bit of
> 16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an example, and not where I
> live<smile>.
>
;-) Now if a GPS took you on your preferred routes what would you need
a GPS for? I use a GPS because I like to ignore that female voice and
not get into trouble!
Mostly the pricks at Home Depot in Canada sell that stuff.
Many of us don't want to pay more than $60 a sheet for plywood so we have to
take what is on the shelves.
1-----------------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I think that who ever is selling scrambled chip garbage with a nice
outer veneer as plywood is either ignorant or thinks you might be. That
clearly describes either OSB with a veneer or Particle board with a veneer.
Plywood is always going to have continuous thin sheets of wood built up
to the thickness that is desired.
2------------------------
Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"
On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:
> Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
> instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.
On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":
http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/MDF/ultrastock-mr.asp
The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes
is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors
and drawer fronts.
Highly recommended!!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
In article <419efddb-8fd1-4544-8d29-a8b7601cf6b1
@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> On Aug 14, 11:46 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> > > On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, RicodJour<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >> Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
> > >> some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
> > >> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
> > >> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
> > >> right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
> >
> > > ...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map showed
> > > to turn right. Sigh.
> >
> > > R
> >
> > We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
> > daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
> > Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
> > not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
> > can be, even at low speeds.
> > I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
> > Help like this I don't need.
>
> Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
> bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
> Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
> from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
> "The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
> The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
> high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
> a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
> bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
> caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
> urns."
>
> GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
> had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
> and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.
Sometimes the route changes, some stuff may be put there for copyright-
defense reasons with the expectation that nobody will actually be stupid
enough to follow it.
My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.
On 8/18/2011 11:18 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Aug 18, 3:15 am, Father Haskell<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
>>> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
>>> about the glue.
>>
>> Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right?
>
> Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bullshit-To-Make-A-Sale
> scale than deadly generic glue.
>
> Lines like the guy told the OP give me headaches. You have to figure
> out if the guy believes it and is just misinformed, opening up the
> question of what else he's misinformed about, or just making up stuff
> to make a sale. Either way it's a red flag and I'd move on from the
> guy, especially since the OP said the guy had an attitude.
>
> R
He may have convinced himself, but I'm really giving him the benefit of
the doubt. He had just returned from a family funeral in Europe--unless
he made that up too.
Steve
On 8/12/2011 12:38 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
>> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
>> out, but figured I'd try anyway.
>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
>> considering a couple of places.
>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
>> calls "compressed wood".
>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
>> plywood.
>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
>> MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
>> it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
>> apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
>> likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
>> prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
>> this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
>> cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
>> concerns.
>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
>> likely to split when placing screws.
>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
>> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> You are correct to be concerned.
>
> IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with
> the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question.
>
> My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding
> kitchen cabinet construction:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/KitchensByEWoodShopInNewConstruction2002201102
>
>
Pretty impressive--thanks!
On 8/13/2011 7:57 AM, Eric wrote:
> "Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:
>>
>> I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
>> Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
>> European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
>> and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
>> compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
>> Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
>> on plywood.
>>
>> I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
>> left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
>> mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
>> the sink cabinet - what a mess.
>
> Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.
>
> Steve
>
> ===================
>
> "Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days!
>
> Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
> chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
I think that who ever is selling scrambled chip garbage with a nice
outer veneer as plywood is either ignorant or thinks you might be. That
clearly describes either OSB with a veneer or Particle board with a veneer.
Plywood is always going to have continuous thin sheets of wood built up
to the thickness that is desired.
Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
> are considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
> calls "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
> is likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> TIA.
> Steve
We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.
Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:
>
>> Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using
>> plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products.
>> ...........................IMHO.
>
> On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
> Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":
>
> http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/MDF/ultrastock-mr.asp
>
> The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts
> in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type
> finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than
> plywood doors and drawer fronts.
>
> Highly recommended!!
As expected from Karl, excellent information from a PRO!!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote in
news:419efddb-8fd1-4544-8d29-a8b7601cf6b1@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 14, 11:46 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>> > On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, RicodJour<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around
>> >> o
> n
>> >> some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday
>> >> tryi
> ng
>> >> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost.
>> >> Th
> e
>> >> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed
>> >> to go right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
>>
>> > ...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map
>> > showed to turn right. Sigh.
>>
>> > R
>>
>> We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
>> daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
>> Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the
>> car, not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the
>> instructions can be, even at low speeds.
>> I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of
>> direction. Help like this I don't need.
>
> Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
> bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
> Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
> from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
> "The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
> The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
> high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
> a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
> bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
> caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
> urns."
>
> GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
> had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
> and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.
>
> R
I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the Porter
Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and then a bit of
16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an example, and not where I
live <smile>.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:E6-
[email protected]:
> ;-) Now if a GPS took you on your preferred routes what would you need
> a GPS for? I use a GPS because I like to ignore that female voice and
> not get into trouble!
Most of the time she is muted :-)
But the "Tom-Tom", as it is colloquially known, is a good source of
amusement for our 11 year-old granddaughter. And we used it to good effect
to get to here:
<http://www.skyventurenh.com/>
I have to get some stills out of the DVD we bought ... 3/4GB is too big for
posting anywhere (I think).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
> side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
> turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
> crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
> through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
> go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
> idea.
Common sense is indeed very uncommon.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
> out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
> considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
> calls "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
> MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
> it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
> apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
> likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
> prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
> this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
> cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
> concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
> likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
You are correct to be concerned.
IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with
the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question.
My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding
kitchen cabinet construction:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/KitchensByEWoodShopInNewConstruction2002201102
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Aug 14, 7:12=A0pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Helluva rain today, eh? =A0Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
> some rides sites. =A0I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. =A0The
> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
> right - remind me to print out the maps next time. =A0;)
...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map showed
to turn right. Sigh.
R
On Aug 12, 12:38=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks--that makes sense. =A0The importer claimed that in=
Europe they are
> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
> about the glue.
Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right?
On Aug 12, 12:38=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]> =A0wrote in
> >news:[email protected]:
>
> >> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> >> First-time poster here. =A0I assume the google problem has left some
> >> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> >> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. =A0W=
e
> >> are considering a couple of places.
> >> One imports his cabinets from Europe. =A0The boxes are made of what he
> >> calls "compressed wood".
> >> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. =A0The boxes ar=
e
> >> plywood.
> >> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
> >> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. =A0From my ignorant
> >> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
> >> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). =A0Most sites also say they are
> >> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
> >> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. =A0Our
> >> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
> >> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". =A0To me
> >> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> >> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
> >> is likely to split when placing screws.
> >> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> >> cabinet boxes? =A0Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> >> TIA.
> >> Steve
>
> > We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
> > Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. =A0Installed by remodeling contractor 11 ye=
ars
> > ago. =A0Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. =A0Upper
> > doors with glass. =A0There was an extensive choice available then. =A0T=
hey
> > have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
>
> > European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. =A0Often =
it's
> > the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
> > what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
> > handling etc.
>
> > Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. =A0YMMV
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Thanks--that makes sense. =A0The importer claimed that in=
Europe they are
> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
> about the glue.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 When we moved into our current apartment a big selling po=
int was the
> Poggenpohl cabinets. =A0But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
> under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the que=
stion.
I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a
place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? ;)
The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will
eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.
That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
you let sleeping puddles lie.
R
On 15 Aug 2011 13:33:34 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
>> side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
>> turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
>> crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
>> through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
>> go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
>> idea.
>
>Common sense is indeed very uncommon.
Yeah, why can't they just mark them honestly?
This is a highway.
This is a back road.
This is a dirt road.
This is a dirt-bike trail.
This is a horse trail.
This is a deer trail.
This is a hiking path.
Simple.
--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On 15 Aug 2011 13:33:34 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and
>>> take a side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a
>>> mile, then turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then
>>> good dirt, then crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to
>>> where I had to go through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I
>>> decided that maybe I should go back to the Interstate. How that
>>> got listed as a road I have no idea.
>>
>> Common sense is indeed very uncommon.
>
> Yeah, why can't they just mark them honestly?
>
> This is a highway.
> This is a back road.
> This is a dirt road.
> This is a dirt-bike trail.
> This is a horse trail.
> This is a deer trail.
> This is a hiking path.
>
> Simple.
Well - the GPS manufacurers just use standard mapping applications and data.
That's where one should direct their questions.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Aug 12, 12:12=A0pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. =A0I assume the google problem has left some
> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. =A0We
> are considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. =A0The boxes are made of what he
> calls "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. =A0The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
> MDF, and a variety of other materials. =A0From my ignorant web searching,
> it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
> apparently more uniform). =A0Most sites also say they are heavier, more
> likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
> prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. =A0Our European guy says
> this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
> cabinets are made of "compressed wood". =A0To me that's a non-answer to m=
y
> concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
> likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? =A0Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> TIA.
> Steve
I built a lot of kitchens since 1976 until I packed that in 5+ years
ago....2003, wow, that's 8 years ago...*shakes head*
The bulk of them, we built with 120gram melamine over HD particle
board.
Trust me when I tell you that there are a LOT of different grades of
PB and thicknesses of melamine. Sink cabinets were invariably
constructed of plywood for all the reasons the rest of the guys here
talk about.
The 120gPB I used was not much of a cost savings over plywood, but so
much easier to cut accurately, no finishing, certainly flatter and
more of a consistent thickness. All said and done, the bulk of the
cost saving by using 120gPB was in the fact that a single pass through
the edgebander did the job. No face frame to deal with, No sanding,
and 3 coats of spraying.
The nicest thing about PB is that it is flat.
The guys who bought the shop back then now use a lot of water
resistant MDF of which Swing speaketh. Also available with 120g of
Melamine.
If done right, there's nothing wrong with a quality heavy duty
particle board.
Now we get to the crux of the matter: I like plywood except it is
harder to be competitive in the marketplace from a price standpoint.
In terms of look-and-feel? Nothing to talk about.
On 8/12/2011 12:58 PM, RonB wrote:
> On Aug 12, 11:12 am, Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
>> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
>> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
>> are considering a couple of places.
>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
>> calls "compressed wood".
>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
>> plywood.
>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
>> MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
>> it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
>> apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
>> likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
>> prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
>> this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
>> cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
>> concerns.
>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
>> likely to split when placing screws.
>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
>> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>>
>> TIA.
>> Steve
>
> I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
> built with care and quality.
>
> I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
> and save money (but it depends on where you live).
>
> We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
> state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
> cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
> with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
> one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
> happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
> measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
> get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
> to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
> plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
> Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
> thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
> The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
> They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
> of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
> their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
> his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
> region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
> shop hired an installer.
>
> If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
> look around.
>
> RonB
I doubt very much that we do (I'm in Brooklyn NY), but your way sounds
wonderful!
Steve
On 8/12/2011 12:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:
>
>> Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
>> instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.
>
> On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
> Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":
>
> http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/MDF/ultrastock-mr.asp
>
> The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
> the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes
> is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors
> and drawer fronts.
>
> Highly recommended!!
>
Well, it sounds like the domestic maker thinks this way. The boxes are
plywood; the doors are MDF with maple veneer, multiple layers of finish.
I figure there will still be some back-and-forth about the details.
My wife is pushing for Blum hardware.
Thanks to all for the knowledgeable responses!
Steve
In article <[email protected]>,
Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
> > Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> >> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
> >> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> >> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
> >> are considering a couple of places.
> >> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
> >> calls "compressed wood".
> >> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
> >> plywood.
> >> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
> >> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
> >> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
> >> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
> >> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
> >> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
> >> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
> >> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
> >> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> >> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
> >> is likely to split when placing screws.
> >> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> >> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
> >>
> >> TIA.
> >> Steve
> >
> > We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
> > Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
> > ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
> > doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
> > have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
> >
> > European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
> > the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
> > what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
> > handling etc.
> >
> > Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV
> >
>
>
> Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
> not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
> about the glue.
> When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
> Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
> under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
> The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.
>
> Steve
Steve -
I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
on plywood.
I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
the sink cabinet - what a mess.
On 8/14/2011 6:58 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> That's what I like about maps. They can convey much more detailed
> information than instructions with much less effort. Do you turn right,
> bear right, or keep following the road (which itself goes right but only
> slightly?)
40+ years after learning it, I still remember the military definition of
a map: "A graphical representation of a portion of the earth's surface,
drawn to scale."
The definition says what a map does, in about as many words. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 8/16/2011 12:15 AM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
> I worked in Kitchen Design at Home Depot (Coordinator) and sold Kraft
> Maid (Hardwood/plywood face frame style) as well as RTA "European
> Style" MDF (Compressed wood fibers). There is no question that I would
> prefer a (quality) plywood box over MDF type "boxes." Having said
> that, I went twice for the price and got the MDF (first for a remodel
> back in 1990, and later for another about five years later).
>
> While I took every precaution to protect the exposed edges of the MDF
> from moisture (sealing with Poly, caulking, etc.) I have had no issues
> with moisture damage in either installation. If you have a Self-
> Cleaning Oven, there are installation procedures necessary to protect
> the adjacent cabinets from the heat.
>
> The place I bought in NC had the cheap Lowes Oak face frame& door
> cabinets on MDF boxes. The homeowner who installed them was not a
> careful guy - but the cabinets held up fine. The Hardwood doors warped
> a bit, but the boxes are still square and true!
>
> So, from these personal experiences, I would say it's personal
> finances that dictate the choice.
>
> But, the differences between kitchen cabinets lies with more than the
> materials used in the construction of the boxes - which are seldom
> seen or heard from after the installation.
>
> But any woman can tell you "it's the drawers stupid." Hold your
> tongue and (listen&) watch the ladies shop the kitchen cabinets. Once
> they get past caressing the marble counter tops (emitting a purring
> sound in many cases), watch as they reach for the nearest drawer and,
> ever so lightly, attempt to pull it out into the light of showroom.
> Then, watch them urge it back in place with the slightest of touches,
> tensing a bit in anticipation to see if it responds to the little
> touch. If it's Blum, and effortlessly glides back into the deep
> recesses of that top of the line cabinet - listen for a sigh or a
> breath escaping slowly as it closes firmly.
>
> If she moves on to a Pan Drawer base, start the video camera with
> sound and post it to your tube.
>
> Later, after the experience is over and you're lounging about with the
> wine and Camels, ask her which she prefers in he boxes - plywood or
> MDF . . .
>
>
>
>
>
Funny you should mention that. We were looking at the plans from one
of the cabinet makers (not the MDF guy) and my wife said--"Hey, where
are the drawers?"
Steve
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
> are considering a couple of places.
> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
> calls "compressed wood".
> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
> plywood.
> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to
> warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out.
> Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that
> all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood".
Horse hocky
> To me
> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
> is likely to split when placing screws.
> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if
there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are
into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to
something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished
(coated).
With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things
together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either.
Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face
frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong;
OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong.
Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a
pretty clean look and they last and last.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:
>
> I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
> Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
> European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
> and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
> compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
> Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
> on plywood.
>
> I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
> left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
> mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
> the sink cabinet - what a mess.
Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.
Steve
===================
"Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days!
Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"
--
Eric
"RicodJour" wrote in message
news:050aed93-8f62-4743-a08e-b1bc90a2f73e@a12g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right?
Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bullshit-To-Make-A-Sale
scale than deadly generic glue.
================
Formaldehyde is a dangerous substance that many MDF products release into
household breathing space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard
--
Eric
On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
>> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
>> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
>> are considering a couple of places.
>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
>> calls "compressed wood".
>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
>> plywood.
>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
>> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
>> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
>> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
>> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
>> and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
>> European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
>> the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
>> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
>> is likely to split when placing screws.
>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
>> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>>
>> TIA.
>> Steve
>
> We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
> Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
> ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
> doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
> have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.
>
> European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
> the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
> what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
> handling etc.
>
> Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV
>
Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.
Steve
Time to learn about your GPS options.
Garmin has an "avoid dirt roads" that actually works.
-------------
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sometimes the route changes, some stuff may be put there for copyright-
defense reasons with the expectation that nobody will actually be stupid
enough to follow it.
My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.
On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, RicodJour<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
>> some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
>> to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
>> cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
>> right - remind me to print out the maps next time. ;)
>
> ...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map showed
> to turn right. Sigh.
>
> R
We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
Help like this I don't need.
Steve
On 8/12/2011 3:57 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
>> First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
>> people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
>> We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
>> are considering a couple of places.
>> One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
>> calls "compressed wood".
>> Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
>> plywood.
>> The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
>> fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
>> web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
>> cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
>> heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to
>> warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out.
>
>> Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that
>> all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood".
>
> Horse hocky
>
>> To me
>> that's a non-answer to my concerns.
>> I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
>> is likely to split when placing screws.
>> Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
>> cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?
>
> Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if
> there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are
> into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to
> something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished
> (coated).
>
> With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things
> together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either.
>
> Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face
> frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong;
> OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong.
>
> Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a
> pretty clean look and they last and last.
>
>
>
Thanks for the reply!
Steve
On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:
>
> I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
> Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
> European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
> and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
> compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
> Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
> on plywood.
>
> I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
> left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
> mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
> the sink cabinet - what a mess.
Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.
Steve