How much to charge for Crown Molding

In article <[email protected]>, Mike Marlow
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Bill wrote:
> > Mike Marlow wrote:
> >> Bill wrote:
> >>
> >>> I liked it too. How hard could it be to teach the trick to your
> >>> shop vac?
> >> Maybe pretty hard Bill. You know what they say - shop vac's suck...
> >
> > Oh, so you are shopping in the aisle with the "green tools" now???
> > Gosh, it looks like it's getting crowded over there! ; )
>
> Nope - was just trying to get a little mileage out of that old joke about
> vaccums sucking...

Didja hear about the upcoming Microsoft/Dyson merger? Microsoft's
finally going to make something that doesn't suck!

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes

On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:16:53 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
>are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
>charging for labor?
>
>I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
>different scopes.
>One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx. 4' corner
>walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now needs one
>exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match the existing
>crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>
>It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
>1- upside-down baseboard.
>2- regular cove crown.
>3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the illusion of a
>really deep molding.
>
>To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done the
>same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on the
>interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the stores that
>was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I do have the
>safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an exact match.
>
>If you've read this far :-) ....
>Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
>corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
>was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
>the same amount of work, minus one corner.
>Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
>patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
>get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>
>So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
>this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
>generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
>the painter will do it.

Based on the time I spent fitting crown molding around the wall-height
fireplace at my own house, I think $100 a foot might be reasonable
;-)

"-MIKE-" wrote:

> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this
> work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What
> are you charging for labor?
--------------------------------------------------------
The task at hand has absolutely nothing to do with the price you
charge.

The real question is "How much do you want to earn per day?"

The task is immaterial.

The question now becomes "How many days?"

Partial days count as full days.

Travel expenses are quoted as a separate item.

$2/mile (1 way) works for me.

Time to get a beer.

Lew

Mike ...

One approach is to charge a flat rate based on your daily rate. If a day o=
f your labor is worth $1,000, multiply that rate by the numbers of days you=
will invest in the job. In my book, a partial day is billed as a full day=
if it precludes me from taking on another paying job.

Please note the comments above comes from my consulting experience. No one =
would pay me a dime for my woodworking (at least no one not related to me :=
-))

Larry


On Thursday, December 4, 2014 4:47:39 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/4/14, 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:
> > -MIKE- wrote:
> >> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this
> >> work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What
> >> are you charging for labor?
> >>
> >> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
> >> different scopes. One in particular is sort of a patch job. They
> >> put aprx. 4' corner walls into a square room, making a convex
> >> corner that now needs one exterior corner and two coped interior
> >> corners to match the existing crown that terminates behind the
> >> sheetrock.
> >>
> >> It is a 3 piece built-up crown. 1- upside-down baseboard. 2-
> >> regular cove crown. 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to
> >> give the illusion of a really deep molding.
> >>
> >> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done
> >> the same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on
> >> the interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the
> >> stores that was cut from the same knives. This is painted white,
> >> so I do have the safety net of caulking the joints if the molding
> >> isn't an exact match.
> >>
> >> If you've read this far :-) .... Yes, this is only about 8 or 9
> >> linear feet of molding. But it has 3 corners of 3-piece compound
> >> crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I was doing the entire
> >> 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching the same amount
> >> of work, minus one corner. Plus, there's the same amount of pre and
> >> post production work for this patch-in job as there is if I was
> >> doing 3 full rooms. I still have to get there, set up, etc, etc,
> >> tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
> >>
> >> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge
> >> for this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not
> >> painting. I generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless
> >> it's specified the painter will do it.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Here's a different twist on your question. What would you pay
> > someone not to have to do it yourself. That will give you a
> > meaningful starting point from which is doesn't make sense to price
> > below. Someone with more experience may be able to do it for less,
> > but it doesn't make sense for you to compete with him or her on it.
> > For me (plenty will tell you, who am I?), the price would depend on
> > the number of visits (to the site, to the store, etc.) How about $250
> > + materials*1.25 ? : ) I think the "beauty and aura" of the
> > room which you have to match would be a factor, as well as location,
> > location, location. How far off am I pros?
> >
> > Bill
> >
>=20
> That's the problem, Bill. I have no idea what I would pay someone
> because I've done most everything on my homes for as long as I can
> remember. Last thing that gave me sticker shock was a new HVAC unit. I
> have no idea what the labor was.
>=20
> Because I do everything myself I have this false perception that the
> things I do are cheap to do because they cost me only
> materials/supplies. The outbuilding I built in my yard this summer was
> up neat $7500 in materials, but I would estimate someone would've
> charged me 30 grand to build it.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -MIKE-
>=20
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Friday, December 5, 2014 10:55:48 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

> I've come to assume that not wall or ceiling is straight and no corner
> is square. :-)

NEVER! Just some are worse than others. With paint grade materials though=
, I do little measuring. Almost all my joints are marked/scribed, then cut=
. Takes away a lot of the pain...=20
>=20
> > You didn't say if the base went to the ceiling and can be used as a
> > nail base, but if it doesn't, make sure you remember to fabricate
> > some crown nail base before you get to the job if you need it.

=20
> I'm curious what you've done for this. I've done different things
> before but I'd love to hear how you do it. I'm being purposely vague to
> keep from influencing your answer. :-)

You rascal....! If this is an 8 - 9 foot ceiling house and they have picke=
d the smaller stuff, so I found some net pics to show my method. If the ce=
iling and the walls are pretty straight, I don't always use a nail base if =
the crown is the small stuff. I shoot my crown on with an 18 ga brad naile=
r with the nail going into the bottom lip. But if the walls are not so goo=
d as seen by the gaps in above and below the nail base in this pic, I use t=
he nail base to make sure I get the crown in straight, nail it to the base,=
then the painters can caulk the gap on the ceiling/walls. BTW, unless the=
ceiling is really bad, I don't usually nail it as I like the molding to mo=
ve a bit when the house does.

http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/RLWknives/media/CrownMoldingbacker_zps5f0=
0532b.jpg.html

If it is stacked molding, and there is a piece to go underneath, all of the=
above goes, and I may not put a nail base in if there is a flat piece unde=
rneath the crown that goes almost to the ceiling. If it doesn't, I put a b=
ull nose on the bottom like this to accommodate the base piece of molding:

http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/RLWknives/media/CrownMoldingbacker2_zps47=
4c4819.jpg.html
=20
Your turn. "Hey, I do it like that!" doesnt' count!
=20
> Man, I'm encouraged by this because we are spot on in our time
> estimates. That's exactly (6hrs.) what I was thinking it would take and
> I was fearing it was too long.

Truthfully, you could be out of there in a bit shorter time. OTOH, you cou=
ld be there a bit longer, too. 6 hours is a good number.
=20
> Thanks a bunch, Robert. I was under that, but approaching it quickly
> the more thought I put into it. I appreciate all the thought and detail
> you put into your reply.

Great! Glad you took it all the right way.

You know, when I started out for myself around '78, I couldn't find anyone =
that would help me estimate jobs. No one. Not a soul. I was always resen=
tful of that as some of those folks held on to their tiny little bit of kno=
wledge like it was the cure for cancer. didn't realize those guys had NO =
CLUE how to do an actual, proper estimate of time/materials/supervision, an=
d were for the most part just winging it. They figured they made a killing=
on one job, not so much on another, but in the end it all worked out for t=
hem. =20

So I took copious notes of my own time on the job while doing different tas=
ks, noting materials, job conditions, how many helpers, material handling t=
ime, etc. I read a ton of estimating guides and articles, but they only ma=
ke good guidelines if they are useful at all. More importantly, I learned =
how much markup went with each trade, and even more important than that, wh=
at the job was worth in the current market. Today, I do my estimates for w=
ork two ways to balance my numbers correctly. =20

First, time and materials, then risk and possibility of warranty, then the =
pain in the ass factor determined when I talk to the clients. I always add=
to the price if I have a client that is obnoxious about the days when he "=
did a lot of work in the field" between semesters in college. Of the guy t=
hat is retired and wants to sit in a lawn chair and watch me work and ask q=
uestions all day. Or the lady that has an immaculate house filled with bri=
c brac that is easily broken.

Second, I determine what the market price is on a job. For example, I have=
a sewer test that I will have done for a client on Monday, and since it is=
in the mechanical baliwick, I don't get to mark it up much after I get my =
plumber out there. Same with my electrician. They make me money, but ther=
e isn't much for me in those jobs. I do it to keep my name in front of my =
client. But if it is my guys I am using on the job, or a guy I know that c=
alls me (that I know) and says he needs some dough and wants to take care o=
f whatever I have for him, I can make more money. Now you get to "play" the=
market. A tip to help you in this determination is to ask the client in t=
he most polite way after the job has been let what the other bids were. So=
me will show you, some won't, but it never hurts to ask. I always do, regar=
dless of whether I get the job or not. Our market fluctuates wildly down h=
ere, and it is a task to keep up with it.

I balance market with actual, then come up with my estimated dollar amount.=
But if you do them independently, you can come up with a good checking sy=
stem to make sure your final number is where it should be.=20

General wood repair or stuff like you are asking about is a pretty good mon=
ey maker for me, and a good one if I do it myself. I know what the job is =
worth. Painting, still good, not as much so, I make my money on wood repai=
rs to prep surfaces before the painting starts. Roofing... oh, yeah. That=
has been a great aspect of my repair maintenance, and I make sure all on m=
y job make money so we can keep that aspect going. I make more money on ro=
ofing repairs than any other aspect of my company. Starting out in the tra=
des and learning to be a full charge carpenter, that hurts my feelings, but=
that's the way it is down here.

Glad to help. I won't always have this much time to reply, but ask away. =
If you get stuck, let me know and we can email phone numbers to see if we c=
an get on the same page. Repair pricing is self taught, and the more you d=
o of it, the better you will get. Sometimes you might find yourself taking=
a job lower than you want to stay busy and fill up the schedule (ahem...) =
or you will price the job high for the pain in the ass factor and wind up g=
etting it anyway.

If you are moving to the repair/maintenance/small job industry, I can tell =
you that keeping job notes is the way to go. I take pictures of the curren=
t job, review notes of old jobs, and do anything I can to build a mental li=
brary to determine what a job is "worth".

NEVER, EVER, do I say, "this is what my day is worth" unless I am planning =
on spending one for a contractor friend (meaning one of the guys I work wit=
h I know that needs a hand. For a general public client, NEVER. The guys=
that simply work by the day now work for me on a as needed basis. I can f=
igure their time closer than they can, and that suits them just fine. Lear=
n your estimating skills, learn the market, and stick to your guns.

Robert

On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:16:53 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
>this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
>generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
>the painter will do it.

The question you should be asking yourself is "How bad do I want this
job?" If you don't really want that type of job let your rate reflect
that. If the customer still says they want you to do it after the
quote then you make big money on shitty jobs. What's wrong with that?

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:04:25 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>> I also love how smooth that jig saw is for coping.
>> Was thinking the same thing. Not sure how much more smooth it is than any
>> other quality saw but I was impressed to watch this guy guide it around
>
> If you're interested in buying one, it's a coping foot that you add
> onto your jigsaw.
> http://www.atlas-machinery.com/products/Collins-Tool-Company-CF-CTC-Coping-Foot-Does-not-fit-new-lever-Bosch-Jigsaw

You have now answered the question that I had not thought to ask yet. :-)

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:16:57 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
> was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
> the same amount of work, minus one corner.
> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>=20
> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
> this job as a labor fee?=20

Mike, this is right in my wheelhouse. This is the type of job I am called =
for from time to time as it is too small for a specialized trim carpentry c=
ompany, and too difficult for "Hal the Handyman" of some well meaning neigh=
bor.=20

I know you do a lot of woodwork and are talented at what you do, so this is=
just some helpful (hopefully) info, not preaching.

First, you should be able to find the molding you need from the same run wi=
th no problem. Go to the Home Depot in the area of town that would have re=
model/repair/retrofits that would use crown, etc., and you will be fine. T=
he molding will be in better shape physically, and they will have more of i=
t. Plan on picking up your molding the day before the job so you won't hav=
e to go into the store and leave all your tools in the truck. My truck has=
been broken into twice at HD, so this is ALWAYS a consideration for me.

Second, you didn't say how far away you would be setting up your saw and co=
mpressor from the work, but I am guessing on a job this small you will be w=
orking in a finished house, so your saw will be outside on the horses, and =
if you have a small compressor, it will be inside with you. So figure out =
your setup time accordingly.

Second, this isn't a complicated job, but it could be harder than it should=
be if the ceilings aren't right, or the walls aren't at a facsimile of rig=
ht angles. Make sure to check your ceiling first to make sure there are no=
bumps, sags, etc., that will make it appear that your molding doesn't fit.=
You need to put your molding on straight, regardless of the ceiling condi=
tion.=20

You didn't say if the base went to the ceiling and can be used as a nail ba=
se, but if it doesn't, make sure you remember to fabricate some crown nail =
base before you get to the job if you need it.

Skipping all the factors you named, by the time you pick up materials, clea=
n up, etc., this will be a day job. Contrary to popular belief, this type =
of work doesn't support charging for drive time to the job (unless it is fa=
r away),or any other kind of charges the client can't see. So an hour to p=
ick up material, OK. Time to drive home, take lunch, go get lunch, anythin=
g else... nope.

I will tell you how I would calculate it. I 15 minutes per cope on each pi=
ece, and another 10 per cut on the outside corners. So 15 + 15 + 10 + 10 =
=3D 50 minutes a pass, with 10 minutes extra for layout (line popping).

So 3 hours of carpentry work. 30 minutes setup, 30 minutes pack up, 30 minu=
tes to put plastic on furniture when you get there and for cleanup after th=
e job is finished. Add another hour for material pickup, and then 30 minut=
es more if you need to make a crown nail base. I would round this to about=
6 hours.

I will skip how I calculate it all, (remember... if you report this work yo=
u are paying both sides of the taxes!) and just tell you what I would sell =
it for down here in San Antonio, TX. I know that someone could be found to=
hammer that molding on the wall for a couple of hundred dollars, but if I =
were selling it I would probably be in the $300 - $350 range (molding by ow=
ners). If it was for one of my contractor buddies that sent me other work,=
I would probably be on the other end as they would make sure I had a clear=
area to set up and work in.

That being said, when I do work in a couple of different neighborhoods arou=
nd here, I could easily get $400 for it as they would expect excellent fit =
and plenty of job site protection and cleanup. If they didn't move any fur=
niture for me and the house was full of expensive decorations they wouldn't=
move, I would price it higher.

Just my 0.02.

If it was a difficult fit based on molding profile or site conditions, it w=
ould be at the $350 end of things,=20

On 12/4/2014 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
> charging for labor?
>
> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
> different scopes.
> One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx. 4' corner
> walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now needs one
> exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match the existing
> crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>
> It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
> 1- upside-down baseboard.
> 2- regular cove crown.
> 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the illusion of a
> really deep molding.
>
> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done the
> same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on the
> interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the stores that
> was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I do have the
> safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an exact match.
>
> If you've read this far :-) ....
> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
> was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
> the same amount of work, minus one corner.
> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>
> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
> this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
> generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
> the painter will do it.
>
>


Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s

On 12/4/2014 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
> charging for labor?

FWIW, from a General Contractors viewpoint, and for this area when
figuring estimated labor costs for crown installation for new
construction or remodel, I currently use the following for a rough
estimate in the planning stages, obviously depending upon type of
molding (single, stacked, etc), wall/ceiling conditions, paint grade,
stain grade, etc.:

$80 to $120/corner, or
$6 to $9/lf

YMMV...

Robert is, as usual, spot on getting an accurate 'what to charge' price
from the trim carpenters view point. Can't go wrong figuring all your
time/overhead times your hourly/daily rate.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually
> done this work
> or are still doing it regularly or from time to time.
> What are you
> charging for labor?
>
> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding
> jobs of
> different scopes.
> One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx.
> 4' corner
> walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now
> needs one
> exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match
> the existing
> crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>
> It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
> 1- upside-down baseboard.
> 2- regular cove crown.
> 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the
> illusion of a
> really deep molding.
>
> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have
> to be done
> the same, with the same attention to detail with coped
> joints on the
> interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the
> stores that
> was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I
> do have the
> safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an
> exact match.
>
> If you've read this far :-) ....
> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding.
> But it has 3
> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't
> really matter
> if I was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this
> section, it's
> approaching the same amount of work, minus one corner.
> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production
> work for this
> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I
> still have to
> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get
> home, etc. etc.
>
> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you
> charge for
> this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not
> painting. I
> generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless
> it's specified
> the painter will do it.

As others have said, whats your day worth? Other than that,
I usually try to bid on the high side. You can always lower
it, if they sqwauk. But trying to get more after you figured
out it was too low is always harder if not impossible

On 12/6/2014 12:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/6/14, 11:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/4/2014 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
>>> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
>>> charging for labor?
>>
>> FWIW, from a General Contractors viewpoint, and for this area when
>> figuring estimated labor costs for crown installation for new
>> construction or remodel, I currently use the following for a rough
>> estimate in the planning stages, obviously depending upon type of
>> molding (single, stacked, etc), wall/ceiling conditions, paint grade,
>> stain grade, etc.:
>>
>> $80 to $120/corner, or
>> $6 to $9/lf
>>
>
> Thanks so much for the info.
> Just to clarify... your above numbers are labor only, correct? Not
> including material.

Yep, labor only. For a myriad of reasons it is always in the
projects/budget's best interest to supply all material when building or
remodeling using subcontractors.

Although on a small job I'll almost always do it myself, despite the
fact that being a sub, on a project which you're also the GC, is not for
the crippled, crazy, sick, lame or lazy...

... although here lately, at some point in every day, I'm pretty much
all but the last, and even then. ;)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Friday, December 5, 2014 11:08:10 PM UTC-6, Markem wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:46:53 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >NEVER, EVER, do I say, "this is what my day is worth"
>
> Robert your advice that you have given out over the years just proves
> that your days worth is priceless.
>
> Mark

What a nice thing to say! Thanks!

Robert

On 12/10/2014 7:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/7/14, 12:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s
>
> Wow! As a guy who works on his own 99.9% of the time, I'm VERY
> intrigued my that vac-clamp system. I also love how smooth that jig saw
> is for coping.
>
> I hate you, now, for temping me so much. :-p
>
>

Hater! ;~)

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 07:50:43 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> If you're interested in buying one, it's a coping foot that you add
>> onto your jigsaw.
>> http://www.atlas-machinery.com/products/Collins-Tool-Company-CF-CTC-Coping-Foot-Does-not-fit-new-lever-Bosch-Jigsaw
>You have now answered the question that I had not thought to ask yet. :-)

That's one of the great benefits of a group like this. That and the
friends you make.

(Won't mention those humourless people that you'd like to drive over
with a steamroller) :)

-MIKE- wrote:
> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
> charging for labor?
>
> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
> different scopes.
> One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx. 4' corner
> walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now needs one
> exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match the existing
> crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>
> It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
> 1- upside-down baseboard.
> 2- regular cove crown.
> 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the illusion of a
> really deep molding.
>
> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done the
> same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on the
> interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the stores that
> was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I do have the
> safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an exact match.
>
> If you've read this far :-) ....
> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
> was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
> the same amount of work, minus one corner.
> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>
> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
> this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
> generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
> the painter will do it.
>
>

Here's a different twist on your question. What would you pay someone
not to have to do it yourself.
That will give you a meaningful starting point from which is doesn't
make sense to price below.
Someone with more experience may be able to do it for less, but it
doesn't make sense for you to compete with him or her on it.
For me (plenty will tell you, who am I?), the price would depend on the
number of visits (to the site, to the store, etc.)
How about $250 + materials*1.25 ? : ) I think the "beauty and
aura" of the room which you have to match would be a factor,
as well as location, location, location. How far off am I pros?

Bill

On 12/4/14, 3:42 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:16:53 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge
>> for this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not
>> painting. I generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless
>> it's specified the painter will do it.
>
> The question you should be asking yourself is "How bad do I want
> this job?" If you don't really want that type of job let your rate
> reflect that. If the customer still says they want you to do it after
> the quote then you make big money on shitty jobs. What's wrong with
> that?
>

That doesn't really help for a few reasons.
1. If I don't know the going rate for this work, then my "charge too
much" rate could very be still be below market value which means I'd
still be getting screwed but thinking I'm making a killing.
2. I'm happy to do the job as it's right up my alley and something I'm
good at so pricing it so high that they'll turn it down isn't really
relative to the situation.
3. Unless you do this work and have done it recently, your input is
irrelevant to me as I stated in my first paragraph.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/4/14, 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this
>> work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What
>> are you charging for labor?
>>
>> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
>> different scopes. One in particular is sort of a patch job. They
>> put aprx. 4' corner walls into a square room, making a convex
>> corner that now needs one exterior corner and two coped interior
>> corners to match the existing crown that terminates behind the
>> sheetrock.
>>
>> It is a 3 piece built-up crown. 1- upside-down baseboard. 2-
>> regular cove crown. 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to
>> give the illusion of a really deep molding.
>>
>> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done
>> the same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on
>> the interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the
>> stores that was cut from the same knives. This is painted white,
>> so I do have the safety net of caulking the joints if the molding
>> isn't an exact match.
>>
>> If you've read this far :-) .... Yes, this is only about 8 or 9
>> linear feet of molding. But it has 3 corners of 3-piece compound
>> crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I was doing the entire
>> 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching the same amount
>> of work, minus one corner. Plus, there's the same amount of pre and
>> post production work for this patch-in job as there is if I was
>> doing 3 full rooms. I still have to get there, set up, etc, etc,
>> tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>>
>> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge
>> for this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not
>> painting. I generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless
>> it's specified the painter will do it.
>>
>>
>
> Here's a different twist on your question. What would you pay
> someone not to have to do it yourself. That will give you a
> meaningful starting point from which is doesn't make sense to price
> below. Someone with more experience may be able to do it for less,
> but it doesn't make sense for you to compete with him or her on it.
> For me (plenty will tell you, who am I?), the price would depend on
> the number of visits (to the site, to the store, etc.) How about $250
> + materials*1.25 ? : ) I think the "beauty and aura" of the
> room which you have to match would be a factor, as well as location,
> location, location. How far off am I pros?
>
> Bill
>

That's the problem, Bill. I have no idea what I would pay someone
because I've done most everything on my homes for as long as I can
remember. Last thing that gave me sticker shock was a new HVAC unit. I
have no idea what the labor was.

Because I do everything myself I have this false perception that the
things I do are cheap to do because they cost me only
materials/supplies. The outbuilding I built in my yard this summer was
up neat $7500 in materials, but I would estimate someone would've
charged me 30 grand to build it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/4/14, 3:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:16:53 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
>> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
>> charging for labor?
>>
>> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
>> different scopes.
>> One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx. 4' corner
>> walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now needs one
>> exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match the existing
>> crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>>
>> It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
>> 1- upside-down baseboard.
>> 2- regular cove crown.
>> 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the illusion of a
>> really deep molding.
>>
>> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done the
>> same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on the
>> interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the stores that
>> was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I do have the
>> safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an exact match.
>>
>> If you've read this far :-) ....
>> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
>> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
>> was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
>> the same amount of work, minus one corner.
>> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
>> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
>> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>>
>> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
>> this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
>> generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
>> the painter will do it.
>
> Based on the time I spent fitting crown molding around the wall-height
> fireplace at my own house, I think $100 a foot might be reasonable
> ;-)
>

I'd take that every day of the week and twice on Fridays! :-D


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/4/14, 4:56 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Mike ...
>
> One approach is to charge a flat rate based on your daily rate. If
> a day of your labor is worth $1,000, multiply that rate by the
> numbers of days you will invest in the job. In my book, a partial
> day is billed as a full day if it precludes me from taking on another
> paying job.
>
> Please note the comments above comes from my consulting experience.
> No one would pay me a dime for my woodworking (at least no one not
> related to me :-))
>
> Larry
>

Funny you bring that up as it's something I've been taking into
consideration on a few recent jobs. People often wonder why a small job
can cost so much, but it's for that very reason. If it takes you an
hour and a half of prep and travel to get to a job and then the job only
takes 4 hours, you pretty much shot an entire day. Whereas you would
probably not have charged any more for a 6 hour job had there been more
to complete. :-)

For this same client in question, I charged $125 per door to hang two
doors. I was done in less than 4 hours and would've been done sooner
but one wall was very out-of plumb and un-square, so I had quite a bit
of finagling to do to get it hung well. If he had 3 doors to hang, I
probably would've dropped the per door price to $100.

I thought $250 for two doors was expensive but they didn't seem to
blink. I know there are guys around who would've hung those doors for
50 bucks a piece and been done in an hour, but I've seen those results
too many times. The doors rattle when they close, have uneven reveals,
hang crooked, don't hit the stops all the way around, are held to the
wall by the trim without any nails through the jambs, and don't have any
long screws supporting the hinges securely to the jack studs. I refuse
to do that kind of $hitty work.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> That's the problem, Bill. I have no idea what I would pay someone
> because I've done most everything on my homes for as long as I can
> remember. Last thing that gave me sticker shock was a new HVAC unit.
> I have no idea what the labor was.
>
> Because I do everything myself I have this false perception that the
> things I do are cheap to do because they cost me only
> materials/supplies. The outbuilding I built in my yard this summer
> was up neat $7500 in materials, but I would estimate someone would've
> charged me 30 grand to build it.

That's me too. The work that we had done on our house this summer was the
first work I've paid for in decades. In the end I'm glad I did pay to have
it done by guys that know what they're doing on log structures, and the
total cost was really quite manageable considering all that they did. It
was hard though to bite that bullet and pay someone to do work. But - if I
hadn't the damned work would still not be done...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Gramps' shop wrote:
> Mike ...
>
> One approach is to charge a flat rate based on your daily rate. If a
> day of your labor is worth $1,000, multiply that rate by the numbers
> of days you will invest in the job. In my book, a partial day is
> billed as a full day if it precludes me from taking on another paying
> job.
>
> Please note the comments above comes from my consulting experience.
> No one would pay me a dime for my woodworking (at least no one not
> related to me :-))
>
> Larry

Hey Larry - Mike's a drummer. He's used to not getting paid for his work...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/4/14, 11:45 PM, ChairMan wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this
>> work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are
>> you charging for labor?
>>
>
> As others have said, whats your day worth? Other than that, I usually
> try to bid on the high side. You can always lower it, if they sqwauk.
> But trying to get more after you figured out it was too low is always
> harder if not impossible
>

A lot of people have used the "what's your day worth" ideology and I get
that, I do.
Being mostly self-employed for the past 15 years, I've found myself
using that rational many times. But I've come to the conclusion that
it's an almost pointless thing to consider.

Fast food workers are now thinking their workday is worth $120 to them.
There was a time not too long ago when I would charge 15/hr for most
carpentry/handyman work.

I'm fairly certain that my knowledge, skill level, and experience far
surpasses that of the average french fryer *and* his manager (who
probably is the only person in the store actually making 15 bucks).

There's an add on local radio for a company who they'll unclog any drain
for $99. All I'm thinking is "$H!T, I'll do it for 50!" Anyone who
knows how they unclog drains knows it takes about 20 minutes from the
time they pull in the driveway until they pull out. You book an entire
day full of these and you're living well.

What's a day worth to a fast food worker, a plumber, and lawyer, a
musician, a doctor? A finish carpenter? The market must bear that out
and I guess I'm trying to get a market survey from guys who are actually
doing it. So while I appreciate the thought because I've also thought
them, and I know they come from a spirit of helping, the concept of
"what's your day worth" is virtually irrelevant in the discussion.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/5/14, 3:58 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:16:57 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has
>> 3 corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really
>> matter if I was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this
>> section, it's approaching the same amount of work, minus one
>> corner. Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production
>> work for this patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms.
>> I still have to get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up,
>> get home, etc. etc.
>>
>> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge
>> for this job as a labor fee?
>
> Mike, this is right in my wheelhouse. This is the type of job I am
> called for from time to time as it is too small for a specialized
> trim carpentry company, and too difficult for "Hal the Handyman" of
> some well meaning neighbor.
>
> I know you do a lot of woodwork and are talented at what you do, so
> this is just some helpful (hopefully) info, not preaching.
>

Not at all. You were one of the guys I was hoping to hear from.


> First, you should be able to find the molding you need from the same
> run with no problem. Go to the Home Depot in the area of town that
> would have remodel/repair/retrofits that would use crown, etc., and
> you will be fine. The molding will be in better shape physically,
> and they will have more of it. Plan on picking up your molding the
> day before the job so you won't have to go into the store and leave
> all your tools in the truck. My truck has been broken into twice at
> HD, so this is ALWAYS a consideration for me.
>
> Second, you didn't say how far away you would be setting up your saw
> and compressor from the work, but I am guessing on a job this small
> you will be working in a finished house, so your saw will be outside
> on the horses, and if you have a small compressor, it will be inside
> with you. So figure out your setup time accordingly.
>
> Second, this isn't a complicated job, but it could be harder than it
> should be if the ceilings aren't right, or the walls aren't at a
> facsimile of right angles. Make sure to check your ceiling first to
> make sure there are no bumps, sags, etc., that will make it appear
> that your molding doesn't fit. You need to put your molding on
> straight, regardless of the ceiling condition.
>

I've come to assume that not wall or ceiling is straight and no corner
is square. :-)


> You didn't say if the base went to the ceiling and can be used as a
> nail base, but if it doesn't, make sure you remember to fabricate
> some crown nail base before you get to the job if you need it.
>

I'm curious what you've done for this. I've done different things
before but I'd love to hear how you do it. I'm being purposely vague to
keep from influencing your answer. :-)


> Skipping all the factors you named, by the time you pick up
> materials, clean up, etc., this will be a day job. Contrary to
> popular belief, this type of work doesn't support charging for drive
> time to the job (unless it is far away),or any other kind of charges
> the client can't see. So an hour to pick up material, OK. Time to
> drive home, take lunch, go get lunch, anything else... nope.
>
> I will tell you how I would calculate it. I 15 minutes per cope on
> each piece, and another 10 per cut on the outside corners. So 15 +
> 15 + 10 + 10 = 50 minutes a pass, with 10 minutes extra for layout
> (line popping).
>
> So 3 hours of carpentry work. 30 minutes setup, 30 minutes pack up,
> 30 minutes to put plastic on furniture when you get there and for
> cleanup after the job is finished. Add another hour for material
> pickup, and then 30 minutes more if you need to make a crown nail
> base. I would round this to about 6 hours.
>

Man, I'm encouraged by this because we are spot on in our time
estimates. That's exactly (6hrs.) what I was thinking it would take and
I was fearing it was too long.


> I will skip how I calculate it all, (remember... if you report this
> work you are paying both sides of the taxes!) and just tell you what
> I would sell it for down here in San Antonio, TX. I know that
> someone could be found to hammer that molding on the wall for a
> couple of hundred dollars, but if I were selling it I would probably
> be in the $300 - $350 range (molding by owners). If it was for one
> of my contractor buddies that sent me other work, I would probably
> be on the other end as they would make sure I had a clear area to set
> up and work in.
>
> That being said, when I do work in a couple of different
> neighborhoods around here, I could easily get $400 for it as they
> would expect excellent fit and plenty of job site protection and
> cleanup. If they didn't move any furniture for me and the house was
> full of expensive decorations they wouldn't move, I would price it
> higher.
>
> Just my 0.02.
>
> If it was a difficult fit based on molding profile or site
> conditions, it would be at the $350 end of things,
>

Thanks a bunch, Robert. I was under that, but approaching it quickly
the more thought I put into it. I appreciate all the thought and detail
you put into your reply.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/4/14, 11:45 PM, ChairMan wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this
>>> work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are
>>> you charging for labor?
>>>
>>
>> As others have said, whats your day worth? Other than that, I usually
>> try to bid on the high side. You can always lower it, if they sqwauk.
>> But trying to get more after you figured out it was too low is always
>> harder if not impossible
>>
>
> A lot of people have used the "what's your day worth" ideology and I get
> that, I do.
> Being mostly self-employed for the past 15 years, I've found myself
> using that rational many times. But I've come to the conclusion that
> it's an almost pointless thing to consider.
>
> Fast food workers are now thinking their workday is worth $120 to them.
> There was a time not too long ago when I would charge 15/hr for most
> carpentry/handyman work.
>
> I'm fairly certain that my knowledge, skill level, and experience far
> surpasses that of the average french fryer *and* his manager (who
> probably is the only person in the store actually making 15 bucks).
>
> There's an add on local radio for a company who they'll unclog any drain
> for $99. All I'm thinking is "$H!T, I'll do it for 50!" Anyone who
> knows how they unclog drains knows it takes about 20 minutes from the
> time they pull in the driveway until they pull out. You book an entire
> day full of these and you're living well.
>
> What's a day worth to a fast food worker, a plumber, and lawyer, a
> musician, a doctor? A finish carpenter? The market must bear that out
> and I guess I'm trying to get a market survey from guys who are actually
> doing it. So while I appreciate the thought because I've also thought
> them, and I know they come from a spirit of helping, the concept of
> "what's your day worth" is virtually irrelevant in the discussion.
>
>

You need to get more because this is a "custom 1-time deal".
The "analysis" is going to burn you on this job... Maybe you could just
agree to $50 an hour, with an estimate of $250-350.

Based on your experience, it doesn't seem you have much to lose.
What I mean is that the job is not going to overwhelm you with surprises.

You can and should consider the cost of the tools you'll be using too.

Cheers,
Bill

On 12/5/14, 11:17 AM, Bill wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 12/4/14, 11:45 PM, ChairMan wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done
>>>> this work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time.
>>>> What are you charging for labor?
>>>>
>>>
>>> As others have said, whats your day worth? Other than that, I
>>> usually try to bid on the high side. You can always lower it, if
>>> they sqwauk. But trying to get more after you figured out it was
>>> too low is always harder if not impossible
>>>
>>
>> A lot of people have used the "what's your day worth" ideology and
>> I get that, I do. Being mostly self-employed for the past 15 years,
>> I've found myself using that rational many times. But I've come to
>> the conclusion that it's an almost pointless thing to consider.
>>
>> Fast food workers are now thinking their workday is worth $120 to
>> them. There was a time not too long ago when I would charge 15/hr
>> for most carpentry/handyman work.
>>
>> I'm fairly certain that my knowledge, skill level, and experience
>> far surpasses that of the average french fryer *and* his manager
>> (who probably is the only person in the store actually making 15
>> bucks).
>>
>> There's an add on local radio for a company who they'll unclog any
>> drain for $99. All I'm thinking is "$H!T, I'll do it for 50!"
>> Anyone who knows how they unclog drains knows it takes about 20
>> minutes from the time they pull in the driveway until they pull
>> out. You book an entire day full of these and you're living well.
>>
>> What's a day worth to a fast food worker, a plumber, and lawyer, a
>> musician, a doctor? A finish carpenter? The market must bear that
>> out and I guess I'm trying to get a market survey from guys who are
>> actually doing it. So while I appreciate the thought because I've
>> also thought them, and I know they come from a spirit of helping,
>> the concept of "what's your day worth" is virtually irrelevant in
>> the discussion.
>>
>>
>
> You need to get more because this is a "custom 1-time deal". The
> "analysis" is going to burn you on this job... Maybe you could just
> agree to $50 an hour, with an estimate of $250-350.
>

Paralysis from analysis, right? :-)
I've been wanting to analyze what to charge for trim carpentry for quite
some time and this particular job was a catalyst for discussion. I've
been getting more and more crown inquiries, specifically.


> Based on your experience, it doesn't seem you have much to lose. What
> I mean is that the job is not going to overwhelm you with surprises.
>

Precisely, and these are the jobs I love for that very fact.
No surprises... or least none I haven't developed efficient processes
for solving.

This is another reason I like to price by the job instead of the hour.
I shouldn't be punished by having to make less for the job because it
doesn't take as long as someone else, simply because I've gotten quick
and efficient at a task from my experience.

And the client shouldn't be punished by having to pay more for my
brainfarts or my taking longer to do a job than it would normally take me.


> You can and should consider the cost of the tools you'll be using
> too.
>

I guess I've always considered that overhead and part of profit.
I don't know if car mechanics consider their tools when pricing a car
repair, but their tools have probably been paid off for quite some time,
as have mine.
I will often take a job knowing I won't make any "profit" from it
because it affords me the opportunity to buy a particular tool I've been
wanting in my arsenal. I did this recently on a job because I wanted a
new HVLP sprayer.

Thanks for the input, Bill.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/05/2014 12:13 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/5/14, 11:17 AM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 12/4/14, 11:45 PM, ChairMan wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done
>>>>> this work or are still doing it regularly or from time to time.
>>>>> What are you charging for labor?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As others have said, whats your day worth? Other than that, I
>>>> usually try to bid on the high side. You can always lower it, if
>>>> they sqwauk. But trying to get more after you figured out it was
>>>> too low is always harder if not impossible
>>>>
>>>
>>> A lot of people have used the "what's your day worth" ideology and
>>> I get that, I do. Being mostly self-employed for the past 15 years,
>>> I've found myself using that rational many times. But I've come to
>>> the conclusion that it's an almost pointless thing to consider.
>>>
>>> Fast food workers are now thinking their workday is worth $120 to
>>> them. There was a time not too long ago when I would charge 15/hr
>>> for most carpentry/handyman work.
>>>
>>> I'm fairly certain that my knowledge, skill level, and experience
>>> far surpasses that of the average french fryer *and* his manager
>>> (who probably is the only person in the store actually making 15
>>> bucks).
>>>
>>> There's an add on local radio for a company who they'll unclog any
>>> drain for $99. All I'm thinking is "$H!T, I'll do it for 50!"
>>> Anyone who knows how they unclog drains knows it takes about 20
>>> minutes from the time they pull in the driveway until they pull
>>> out. You book an entire day full of these and you're living well.
>>>
>>> What's a day worth to a fast food worker, a plumber, and lawyer, a
>>> musician, a doctor? A finish carpenter? The market must bear that
>>> out and I guess I'm trying to get a market survey from guys who are
>>> actually doing it. So while I appreciate the thought because I've
>>> also thought them, and I know they come from a spirit of helping,
>>> the concept of "what's your day worth" is virtually irrelevant in
>>> the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You need to get more because this is a "custom 1-time deal". The
>> "analysis" is going to burn you on this job... Maybe you could just
>> agree to $50 an hour, with an estimate of $250-350.
>>
>
> Paralysis from analysis, right? :-)
> I've been wanting to analyze what to charge for trim carpentry for quite
> some time and this particular job was a catalyst for discussion. I've
> been getting more and more crown inquiries, specifically.
>
>
>> Based on your experience, it doesn't seem you have much to lose. What
>> I mean is that the job is not going to overwhelm you with surprises.
>>
>
> Precisely, and these are the jobs I love for that very fact.
> No surprises... or least none I haven't developed efficient processes
> for solving.
>
> This is another reason I like to price by the job instead of the hour.
> I shouldn't be punished by having to make less for the job because it
> doesn't take as long as someone else, simply because I've gotten quick
> and efficient at a task from my experience.
>
> And the client shouldn't be punished by having to pay more for my
> brainfarts or my taking longer to do a job than it would normally take me.
>
>
>> You can and should consider the cost of the tools you'll be using
>> too.
>>
>
> I guess I've always considered that overhead and part of profit.
> I don't know if car mechanics consider their tools when pricing a car
> repair, but their tools have probably been paid off for quite some time,
> as have mine.
> I will often take a job knowing I won't make any "profit" from it
> because it affords me the opportunity to buy a particular tool I've been
> wanting in my arsenal. I did this recently on a job because I wanted a
> new HVLP sprayer.
>
> Thanks for the input, Bill.

I guess I'm not qualified to respond given your previous restrictions as
it's been almost 40 yr since did any commercial work and it was done as
part of overall refurbishing a group of us did on old Federal and
earlier places in Lynchburg, VA. We bought as fixer-uppers (long before
the term flipping was coined), did full restorations back to as near
original as could get and then sold to the rapidly-expanding-at-the-time
young professional influx of new Babcock & Wilcox, GE, Illinois Tool
Works, ... new hires. I did the interior trim/architectural woodwork
almost exclusively but all expenses were fronted up front and profits,
if any, came after the sale...being engineers ourselves, we had a
complex formula for the revenue sharing calculation. :)

Anyway, I'd ask if this is your source of a living or fill-in/extra
income. If it's the former then the question of what your day's worth
is the only one that matters...you've got to make your pricing support
that hourly rate (or work more hours) to generate $X in annual income
that's your target. Divide that by the number of hours you actually
bill, account for the overhead costs and see what your billing rate has
to be to make it work.

If it's fill-in, then you can do whatever and there's no point in
worrying about anything except how much do you want for a given job and
tell the client the number.

--

On 12/5/14, 3:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, December 5, 2014 10:55:48 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I've come to assume that not wall or ceiling is straight and no
>> corner is square. :-)
>
> NEVER! Just some are worse than others. With paint grade materials
> though, I do little measuring. Almost all my joints are
> marked/scribed, then cut. Takes away a lot of the pain...
>>
>>> You didn't say if the base went to the ceiling and can be used
>>> as a nail base, but if it doesn't, make sure you remember to
>>> fabricate some crown nail base before you get to the job if you
>>> need it.
>
>
>> I'm curious what you've done for this. I've done different things
>> before but I'd love to hear how you do it. I'm being purposely
>> vague to keep from influencing your answer. :-)
>
> You rascal....! If this is an 8 - 9 foot ceiling house and they
> have picked the smaller stuff, so I found some net pics to show my
> method. If the ceiling and the walls are pretty straight, I don't
> always use a nail base if the crown is the small stuff. I shoot my
> crown on with an 18 ga brad nailer with the nail going into the
> bottom lip. But if the walls are not so good as seen by the gaps in
> above and below the nail base in this pic, I use the nail base to
> make sure I get the crown in straight, nail it to the base, then the
> painters can caulk the gap on the ceiling/walls. BTW, unless the
> ceiling is really bad, I don't usually nail it as I like the molding
> to move a bit when the house does.
>

I've gotten accustomed to making sure the wall nailing fully supports
the molding because you never know when you'll have anything at all to
nail to, like when running parallel to the ceiling joists. X nailing
helps in those cases, but I'd rather not nail to the ceiling at all. I
never considered the movement aspect of it, but now that gives me an
excuse. :-)


> http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/RLWknives/media/CrownMoldingbacker_zps5f00532b.jpg.html
>

That looks suspiciously like what I have sitting out on the garage
floor. :-)
In my case, it's the leftovers from a run of French cleat I made for
another project that I figured I could reuse for this if needed.


> If it is stacked molding, and there is a piece to go underneath, all
> of the above goes, and I may not put a nail base in if there is a
> flat piece underneath the crown that goes almost to the ceiling. If
> it doesn't, I put a bull nose on the bottom like this to accommodate
> the base piece of molding:
>
> http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/RLWknives/media/CrownMoldingbacker2_zps474c4819.jpg.html
>
>
> Your turn. "Hey, I do it like that!" doesnt' count!
>

I haven't done much built-up crown, but I have used a backer on some
wider crown on a job a few years back. In this particular case,
however, I actually made backer blocks and didn't put a strip along the
entire length. I put the blocks up every couple feet as an extra
nailing surface for the upper portion of the crown. It's probably
easier to do it your way and my instincts moved me in that direction if
the stuff on my garage floor is any indication.

In the past, when putting up crown perpendicular to the ceiling joists I
would shoot a nail up into every joist. But I noticed on one job that
it pulled the crown up against the joists and it amplified the wave in
the ceiling. Now I prefer to put it up straight and let the caulk close
those gaps. If I ever do stained crown, I suppose I'll either have to
earn my money scribe cutting or drop it a bit to create a shadow reveal.
:-)


>> Man, I'm encouraged by this because we are spot on in our time
>> estimates. That's exactly (6hrs.) what I was thinking it would
>> take and I was fearing it was too long.
>
> Truthfully, you could be out of there in a bit shorter time. OTOH,
> you could be there a bit longer, too. 6 hours is a good number.
>
>> Thanks a bunch, Robert. I was under that, but approaching it
>> quickly the more thought I put into it. I appreciate all the
>> thought and detail you put into your reply.
>
> Great! Glad you took it all the right way.
>
> You know, when I started out for myself around '78, I couldn't find
> anyone that would help me estimate jobs. No one. Not a soul. I
> was always resentful of that as some of those folks held on to their
> tiny little bit of knowledge like it was the cure for cancer.
> didn't realize those guys had NO CLUE how to do an actual, proper
> estimate of time/materials/supervision, and were for the most part
> just winging it. They figured they made a killing on one job, not so
> much on another, but in the end it all worked out for them.
>
> So I took copious notes of my own time on the job while doing
> different tasks, noting materials, job conditions, how many helpers,
> material handling time, etc. I read a ton of estimating guides and
> articles, but they only make good guidelines if they are useful at
> all. More importantly, I learned how much markup went with each
> trade, and even more important than that, what the job was worth in
> the current market. Today, I do my estimates for work two ways to
> balance my numbers correctly.
>
> First, time and materials, then risk and possibility of warranty,
> then the pain in the ass factor determined when I talk to the
> clients. I always add to the price if I have a client that is
> obnoxious about the days when he "did a lot of work in the field"
> between semesters in college. Of the guy that is retired and wants
> to sit in a lawn chair and watch me work and ask questions all day.
> Or the lady that has an immaculate house filled with bric brac that
> is easily broken.
>
> Second, I determine what the market price is on a job. For example,
> I have a sewer test that I will have done for a client on Monday,
> and since it is in the mechanical baliwick, I don't get to mark it
> up much after I get my plumber out there. Same with my electrician.
> They make me money, but there isn't much for me in those jobs. I do
> it to keep my name in front of my client. But if it is my guys I am
> using on the job, or a guy I know that calls me (that I know) and
> says he needs some dough and wants to take care of whatever I have
> for him, I can make more money. Now you get to "play" the market. A
> tip to help you in this determination is to ask the client in the
> most polite way after the job has been let what the other bids were.
> Some will show you, some won't, but it never hurts to ask. I always
> do, regardless of whether I get the job or not. Our market
> fluctuates wildly down here, and it is a task to keep up with it.
>
> I balance market with actual, then come up with my estimated dollar
> amount. But if you do them independently, you can come up with a
> good checking system to make sure your final number is where it
> should be.
>
> General wood repair or stuff like you are asking about is a pretty
> good money maker for me, and a good one if I do it myself. I know
> what the job is worth. Painting, still good, not as much so, I make
> my money on wood repairs to prep surfaces before the painting
> starts. Roofing... oh, yeah. That has been a great aspect of my
> repair maintenance, and I make sure all on my job make money so we
> can keep that aspect going. I make more money on roofing repairs
> than any other aspect of my company. Starting out in the trades and
> learning to be a full charge carpenter, that hurts my feelings, but
> that's the way it is down here.
>
> Glad to help. I won't always have this much time to reply, but ask
> away. If you get stuck, let me know and we can email phone numbers
> to see if we can get on the same page. Repair pricing is self
> taught, and the more you do of it, the better you will get. Sometimes
> you might find yourself taking a job lower than you want to stay busy
> and fill up the schedule (ahem...) or you will price the job high for
> the pain in the ass factor and wind up getting it anyway.
>
> If you are moving to the repair/maintenance/small job industry, I
> can tell you that keeping job notes is the way to go. I take
> pictures of the current job, review notes of old jobs, and do
> anything I can to build a mental library to determine what a job is
> "worth".
>
> NEVER, EVER, do I say, "this is what my day is worth" unless I am
> planning on spending one for a contractor friend (meaning one of the
> guys I work with I know that needs a hand. For a general public
> client, NEVER. The guys that simply work by the day now work for me
> on a as needed basis. I can figure their time closer than they can,
> and that suits them just fine. Learn your estimating skills, learn
> the market, and stick to your guns.
>
> Robert
>

That's all great brain fodder and I really appreciate you taking the
time to share the wisdom. Thanks a bunch!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Spot on my estimate too. I was thinking a solid 3/4th of a day.

I wonder if you will be able to do anything in those few hours of the day
that are left.

If I though I could get away with it, I would go ahead and add travel time
or something to get you up to the dollar amount you expect to make for a
full day's work.

-- Jim in NC


---
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On 12/5/14, 11:11 PM, Morgans wrote:
>
>
> Spot on my estimate too. I was thinking a solid 3/4th of a day.
>
> I wonder if you will be able to do anything in those few hours of the
> day that are left.
>
> If I though I could get away with it, I would go ahead and add travel
> time or something to get you up to the dollar amount you expect to
> make for a full day's work.
>
> -- Jim in NC
>

They are doing a remodel partly on their own. They put up some walls
[you can tell :-) ] and have done some tile work and other things.
They contacted me after starting to hang one of the doors and probably
decided they'd rather hire someone.

There are a lot of other small, "skilled" tasks that haven't been done.
One of which is this section of crown. I can see all these other
things and may suggest a package price or hourly rate for all of it.
Part of me wants to do just this task and wait until they call for the
next. Then the next. And then the next. I can certainly make more
money that way and it may make them feel better that they aren't giving
up on doing it themselves all at once. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote
There are a lot of other small, "skilled" tasks that haven't been done.
One of which is this section of crown. I can see all these other
things and may suggest a package price or hourly rate for all of it.
Part of me wants to do just this task and wait until they call for the
next. Then the next. And then the next. I can certainly make more
money that way and it may make them feel better that they aren't giving
up on doing it themselves all at once. :-)
***************************
Sounds like if they trust you, that you could negotiate a favorable hourly
rate and work by the hour with the provision that when you come out it is
for a 8 hour day minimum. When they have enough to do to take up a whole
day, you give them the next days' labor.

-- Jim in NC


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On 12/6/14, 11:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/4/2014 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
>> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
>> charging for labor?
>
> FWIW, from a General Contractors viewpoint, and for this area when
> figuring estimated labor costs for crown installation for new
> construction or remodel, I currently use the following for a rough
> estimate in the planning stages, obviously depending upon type of
> molding (single, stacked, etc), wall/ceiling conditions, paint grade,
> stain grade, etc.:
>
> $80 to $120/corner, or
> $6 to $9/lf
>

Thanks so much for the info.
Just to clarify... your above numbers are labor only, correct? Not
including material.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:
> On 12/4/2014 2:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> I'm interested to hear from you guys who have actually done this work or
>> are still doing it regularly or from time to time. What are you
>> charging for labor?
>>
>> I've had a few inquiries from clients for crown molding jobs of
>> different scopes.
>> One in particular is sort of a patch job. They put aprx. 4' corner
>> walls into a square room, making a convex corner that now needs one
>> exterior corner and two coped interior corners to match the existing
>> crown that terminates behind the sheetrock.
>>
>> It is a 3 piece built-up crown.
>> 1- upside-down baseboard.
>> 2- regular cove crown.
>> 3- small chair rail about 2.5" below cove to give the illusion of a
>> really deep molding.
>>
>> To me this is basically 3 sets of molding which all have to be done the
>> same, with the same attention to detail with coped joints on the
>> interior corners. All assuming I can find molding in the stores that
>> was cut from the same knives. This is painted white, so I do have the
>> safety net of caulking the joints if the molding isn't an exact match.
>>
>> If you've read this far :-) ....
>> Yes, this is only about 8 or 9 linear feet of molding. But it has 3
>> corners of 3-piece compound crown. To me it wouldn't really matter if I
>> was doing the entire 12'x14' room or just this section, it's approaching
>> the same amount of work, minus one corner.
>> Plus, there's the same amount of pre and post production work for this
>> patch-in job as there is if I was doing 3 full rooms. I still have to
>> get there, set up, etc, etc, tear down, clean up, get home, etc. etc.
>>
>> So what do you guys charge for labor? And what would you charge for
>> this job as a labor fee? I'm only hanging the crown, not painting. I
>> generally will putty nail holes on my trim jobs unless it's specified
>> the painter will do it.
>>
>>
>
>
> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s

That guy was pretty smoothe... Enjoyed the video. -Bill

On 12/7/14, 12:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s

Wow! As a guy who works on his own 99.9% of the time, I'm VERY
intrigued my that vac-clamp system. I also love how smooth that jig saw
is for coping.

I hate you, now, for temping me so much. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/7/14, 12:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s
>
> Wow! As a guy who works on his own 99.9% of the time, I'm VERY
> intrigued my that vac-clamp system.
I liked it too. How hard could it be to teach the trick to your shop vac?


> I also love how smooth that jig saw is for coping.
>
> I hate you, now, for temping me so much. :-p
>
>

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/7/14, 12:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s
>
> Wow! As a guy who works on his own 99.9% of the time, I'm VERY
> intrigued my that vac-clamp system.

That is one seriously cool idea!


> I also love how smooth that jig saw is for coping.

Was thinking the same thing. Not sure how much more smooth it is than any
other quality saw but I was impressed to watch this guy guide it around.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> I liked it too. How hard could it be to teach the trick to your shop vac?

Maybe pretty hard Bill. You know what they say - shop vac's suck...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I liked it too. How hard could it be to teach the trick to your shop vac?
> Maybe pretty hard Bill. You know what they say - shop vac's suck...

Oh, so you are shopping in the aisle with the "green tools" now???
Gosh, it looks like it's getting crowded over there! ; )


>

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I liked it too. How hard could it be to teach the trick to your
>>> shop vac?
>> Maybe pretty hard Bill. You know what they say - shop vac's suck...
>
> Oh, so you are shopping in the aisle with the "green tools" now???
> Gosh, it looks like it's getting crowded over there! ; )

Nope - was just trying to get a little mileage out of that old joke about
vaccums sucking...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/10/2014 7:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/7/14, 12:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike you might take a look at this to help install moldings.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4f5myXkD9s
>
> Wow! As a guy who works on his own 99.9% of the time, I'm VERY intrigued
> my that vac-clamp system. I also love how smooth that jig saw is for
> coping.
...

'Tis a clever idea; no idea how pricey the green paint is on that
particular adaptor if it's available at all as just the clamp.

It wouldn't be terribly difficult to fabricate a custom piece of a given
size; the feature of that is the multiple sections to give the flexible
sizing in one part.

Will admit hadn't thought of the vacuum clamping action that way,
though...I may well do some experimenting as also the "one-man band" is
rampant here as well.

I've rigged up all sorts of things on the barn re-furb to handle pieces
like a comealong over a beam with a square hook for holding 14-16ft
1x12's that were the interior walls in the milking parlor area that were
taken down while doing the sill replacement and wall stud cripples for
areas that had rotted out from 80+ yr of accumulated ammonia damage from
the waste trough running along the north wall...

--

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:04:25 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> I also love how smooth that jig saw is for coping.
>Was thinking the same thing. Not sure how much more smooth it is than any
>other quality saw but I was impressed to watch this guy guide it around

If you're interested in buying one, it's a coping foot that you add
onto your jigsaw.
http://www.atlas-machinery.com/products/Collins-Tool-Company-CF-CTC-Coping-Foot-Does-not-fit-new-lever-Bosch-Jigsaw

On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:46:53 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>NEVER, EVER, do I say, "this is what my day is worth"

Robert your advice that you have given out over the years just proves
that your days worth is priceless.

Mark