Americans seem to be getting a better deal from Lee Valley.

On 28 Oct 2004 18:01:14 -0700, [email protected] (JohnD) wrote:

>It is clear that Lee Valley has decided to charge higher prices to
>Canadian consumers harder because the Canadian market is simply less
>competitive than the US market.

Exactly. And when I suggested to Robin a bit of free shipping might help correct
this unfair imbalance he basically said he needs the extra cash from Canadians
to subsidize the lower price he gives to Americans.
And this guy claims to be a Canadian!

> I am a Canadian living in the US and
>longtime Lee Valley buyer/supporter. When the 2004/2005 catalog came
>out, I was struck by the very high spread between US and Canadian
>pricing. An example is the Canadian-made Veritas Low Angle Block
>Plane - $99 in the US $139 in Canada (Implied exchange rate of
>$1.404). In June 2004 the US dollar was $1.32 Canadian, 8% lower than
>the spread implied by the catalogue differentials. The Dollar hasn't
>closed at $1.40 since August 2003. Hard to imagine the catalogue
>pricing is based on some proprietary view of future exchange rate
>changes, but Lee Valley could hedge away currency risk in any case.
>
>If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
>out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein
>tools in particular, for a cold douche. By the way, I don't believe
>in the concept of "fair" prices. Companies are in the game to
>maximize profits, if Canadians have fewer options, it follows that, in
>general (not General, btw) they will face higher pricing.
>
>John
>
>
>
>>
>> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
>> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>>
>> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>>
>> Cheers -
>>
>> Rob

"JohnD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is clear that Lee Valley has decided to charge higher prices to
> Canadian consumers harder because the Canadian market is simply less
> competitive than the US market.


It may seem clear to you but it is not to me.
Could be other reasons. Perhaps the cost of getting the goods to Canada is
higher than getting them to the US shipping warehouse. I don't know if any
tarriff or duty is involved.
I do know we ship a lot of goods to CA at US prices and the customer is
paying more in total than the same thing sold in the US by the time he pays
duty.

I have enough to keep me busy running my own business so I'm not going to
try to run Lee Valley and make policy for them also.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:29:28 GMT, "Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quit yer bellyaching. I'd gladly trade a gazillion Walmarts for one LV.

You should be grateful.

If you don't think this little public display of annoyance will make Lee Valley
bean counters consider their future Canadian pricing a little more carefully you
don't understand business.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:20:09 -0400, Daniel H <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robert,
>
>Pricing based on cost is fundamentally flawed. (I'm making some
>assumptions on what you mean when you say "fair markup" - that the price
>is somehow algorithmically related to only the cost. If I'm wrong, I'm
>sure you'll let me know...)
>
I'll stop you there.
I don't expect Lee Valley to return to that type of pricing.
It not realistic in today's competitive marketplace.
I was just annoyed when I made that statement.
But the point I made about competitive pricing eating thousands of tons of trees
in order to feed the marketplace almost daily PHONEY sales flyers in our
newspapers and mailboxes was valid.

My annoyance with Lee Valley rests with every year seeing Americans paying less
for the same product I buy. Many of those MADE IN CANADA!
Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
he must give his American customers a better deal.

Well I don't have to like it and will continue to say so.

>What if a product was of a certain utility but cost much more to produce
>than the value the product provided? Would you charge the usual markup
>over the high production cost? Nobody would buy it.
>
>What if a product provided immense utility, time or labor savings, etc.,
>and you could only charge the standard markup over cost? This would be
>a major disincentive for inventing anything new and better; why would
>you spend all that R&D money? Your benefit for your innovation would
>be limited to your standard markup (but you'd probably get everyone
>buying your thing instead of the other).
>
>If you can invent something that provides immense value (patent it), you
>can set a price that reflects this value provided, and customers who see
>the value will gladly pay the price. The cost basically determes profit
>(or lack thereof).
>
>Just to throw a wrench into everything, read this:
>http://www.fastcompany.com/online/68/pricing.html
>
>
>Robert wrote:
>> There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
>> Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
>> There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
>> goods.
>> They are worth their weight in gold.
>> It's too bad Lee Valley isn't one of them.

Rick:

I should have been clearer, I meant block plane, not aero-plane.
The LV prices are before the (15% in Ontario) PST & GST.

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:59:26 -0400, "Stephen M"
> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
>> >forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
>> >
>> >They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with
>> >the
>> >exchange rates.
>>
>> Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.
>>
>> Unless it's possible to use a Canadian credit card and order in US funds.
>> Anyone try this?
>
> Lot's have tried - none have succeeded....
>
> No one's "taking lumps"...well, besides us. American customers are getting
> a
> deal .... as Canadian customers do when the exchange runs the other way...

I don't think I want your headache... er, I mean business for Xmas anymore
<g>
SH

> No. Since presumably most of LV's expenses are Cdn$. Perhaps this is
> overly
> siplistic but if LV sets their prices based on a certain gross profit
> margin, the Canadian Customer pricing stays "right-sized".

A lot of imported goods are priced and purchased in US currency, regardless
of the point of origin and the final destination. For example an engineer's
square made in India and shipped directly to Canada might be priced and paid
for in US dollars, even though no one in the US is involved in manufacturing
or distribution.

If the value of the Canadian dollar rises against the US dollar, Lee
Valley's inventory takes a hit from Canadian sales and a double hit from US
sales.

> If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
> out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein
> tools in particular, for a cold douche.

One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159 USD
($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 - $15 extra
cost, but why is Dewalt charging double?

>> One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159
>> USD ($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 -
>> $15 extra cost, but why is Dewalt charging double?
>>
>
> Subsidized health care? Technical support lines in French Canadian?
> Local
> content regulation?

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

> Have you ever compared the cost of flying anywhere in Canada to flying in
> the US? I can fly five times the distance in the US for what it costs to
> fly
> anywhere in Canada. How do you explain something like that?

The pricing of flights is determined by passenger yields, passenger volume,
and the competitive environment. There are low cost carriers flying between
major Canadian routes that offer very competitive rates, even compared to
similar travel in the US.

Don't know what this has to do with Lee Valley as most of their stuff is
shipped ground freight.

>> Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign
>> companies
>> setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
>> largely paid for by the Canadian public.
>
> Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
> hypothesis,
> too bad you don't have facts to back it.

Perhaps I can explain it a bit better to you. Some provinces charge health
care premiums, some don't. The amount that some provinces charge is minimal,
for instance, British Columbia charges $50 per month per person. This is
only a token amount, a mere pittance in the overall operating costs. The
majority of the funding for the health care system is shared between the
provincial and federal governments (i.e. the Canadian public).

Sometimes the employer picks up the $50 per month premium as part of the
employee benefit package but that can hardly be considered as you suggest,
health care being paid for by the employer.

> As you say most provinces charge a health tax on employers however,

I never said that. What I said is that some provinces charge a small premium
for health care. Sometimes it's paid for by the employers, sometimes it
isn't.

> in the overall scheme of things if you add the cost of extended health
> benefits paid by employers the private sector in Canada is paying for an
> about 30% of health care although our Federal and Provincial Governments
> do not like to acknowledge that.

We were talking about subsidized health care, which is largely funded by the
taxpayer and is free to every Canadian , regardless of their employment
status (with the exception of some provinces that charge a small monthly
premium).

Private health care is another issue. It's optional and the degree of
coverage can vary from 0 to 100% depending on the employee benefit package.

This may be a dumb@$$ question, but, how come I can't actually see any
of Robert's postings? I can only read snippets in responses. I don't
think that I have set any filtering.

Have his postings been removed?

ET

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:42:00 -0400, "Buck Turgidson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
>stick,
>> from a Canadian company.
>>
>
>Yes, but your beer is better.


Whaa?

Have you actually tried American micro brews, or just Budweiser and
Miller products? <G>

Barry

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Rob Lee considers this fair, I don't. It's as simple as that.

And in the same vein, you're an asshole, so what else is there to say?

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:36:48 GMT, Robert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Have you had your suit spray painted or squirted with glue?
>Been run into with shopping carts?
>It was a fun time.<g>

You only have to ask. I'm sure we can get a few volunteers to help
recreate the experience.

Hell, stand still for a bit. I'll stick a few dollar bills to the
outside of the tin, post it over and see if the postman will help me
do it by remote control.

In article <[email protected]>, Rob Lee
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Fraid you're stuck with fixed, already competitive prices - and excellent
> service.
>
> Best we can do...

Curse you.

And, where's my Saskatoon store?????

djb

In article <67xgd.54810$nl.21071@pd7tw3no>, Clint <[email protected]>
wrote:

> But a real comparision is really Canadian vs US big name brews (i.e. Bud vs
> Labatt's), or Canadian vs US micro brews. Comparing one countries big names
> to another countries micro's is hardly fair.

The micros I've had on both sides of the border are quite comparable
and in general, excellent.

Comparing the majors, I much prefer Canadian beer. More flavor, for one.

Q: Why is American beer like making love in a canoe?

;-)

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:39:04 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:59:26 -0400, "Stephen M"
><[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
>> >forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
>> >
>> >They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
>> >exchange rates.
>>
>> Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.
>>
>> Unless it's possible to use a Canadian credit card and order in US funds.
>> Anyone try this?
>
>Lot's have tried - none have succeeded....
>
>No one's "taking lumps"...well, besides us. American customers are getting a
>deal .... as Canadian customers do when the exchange runs the other way...
>
Maybe a little 'free shipping' to sweeten the pot?<big smile>
As you probably know many companies offer free shipping at Christmas.
I take advantage of these free shipping offers especially from the big book
stores.

could it be that Canadians pay the tax and exported items do not?

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
> stick,
> from a Canadian company.
>

It is clear that Lee Valley has decided to charge higher prices to
Canadian consumers harder because the Canadian market is simply less
competitive than the US market. I am a Canadian living in the US and
longtime Lee Valley buyer/supporter. When the 2004/2005 catalog came
out, I was struck by the very high spread between US and Canadian
pricing. An example is the Canadian-made Veritas Low Angle Block
Plane - $99 in the US $139 in Canada (Implied exchange rate of
$1.404). In June 2004 the US dollar was $1.32 Canadian, 8% lower than
the spread implied by the catalogue differentials. The Dollar hasn't
closed at $1.40 since August 2003. Hard to imagine the catalogue
pricing is based on some proprietary view of future exchange rate
changes, but Lee Valley could hedge away currency risk in any case.

If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein
tools in particular, for a cold douche. By the way, I don't believe
in the concept of "fair" prices. Companies are in the game to
maximize profits, if Canadians have fewer options, it follows that, in
general (not General, btw) they will face higher pricing.

John



>
> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>
> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob

There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
the economic reality driving the price difference.






> news:[email protected]...
> > It is clear that Lee Valley has decided to charge higher prices to
> > Canadian consumers harder because the Canadian market is simply less
> > competitive than the US market.
>
>
> It may seem clear to you but it is not to me.
> Could be other reasons. Perhaps the cost of getting the goods to Canada is
> higher than getting them to the US shipping warehouse. I don't know if any
> tarriff or duty is involved.
> I do know we ship a lot of goods to CA at US prices and the customer is
> paying more in total than the same thing sold in the US by the time he pays
> duty.
>
> I have enough to keep me busy running my own business so I'm not going to
> try to run Lee Valley and make policy for them also.

Flights are cheaper in the US because there is more competition for
passengers. This is precisely why the plane is cheaper there, as
well. More competition leads lo lower profit-maximizing pricing. If
you can identifying the cost advantage to a Canadian-made plane
selling in the US I would love to hear it... I was merely trying to
explain the observed phenomenon of the pricing spreads, not pass moral
judgement on Lee Valley.

The reason Bosch sells for more in Canada is that the distributor,
Amiel, is taking a very high markup - significantly higher than that
taken by the retailer. I predict Bosch will pull the plug on them in
the next while.

If you consider the discussion a waste of time, that is your business,
but it is puzzling that you would then choose to participate in said
discussion...





"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "JohnD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
> > out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein
>
> There's a whole pile of conditions that have an effect on why something
> maybe more expensive in Canada and there's a number of areas where the
> reverse might be true.
>
> Have you ever compared the cost of flying anywhere in Canada to flying in
> the US? I can fly five times the distance in the US for what it costs to fly
> anywhere in Canada. How do you explain something like that? Centering out
> Lee Valley Tools for being caught in the middle of exchange rate conditions
> and country conditions is at best, a waste of time.

> Notice how almost all threads devolve to politics?

Patriarch

You devolved the thread to politics. I spoke of pricing decisions.
You brought up NAFTA, etc. Nice to be so self-aware.

> Subsidized health care? Technical support lines in French Canadian? Local
> content regulation?
>
> Doing business across ANY border is a puzzle. This is one reason that
> NAFTA was proposed, and, in some form, instituted. Notice just how easily
> that project went together.
>

>
> Patriarch

Ba r r y wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:42:00 -0400, "Buck Turgidson"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
> >stick,
> >> from a Canadian company.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, but your beer is better.
>
> Whaa?
>
> Have you actually tried American micro brews, or just Budweiser and
> Miller products? <G>

Have you ever tried real Canadian beer and not that watered down stuff they
export to the U.S.?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

We had a group of Boy Scouts run out of a grocery for comparison shopping as part
of a merit badge requirement. I would have stayed if there was coffee!

Grant

Robert wrote:

>
> Have you had your suit spray painted or squirted with glue?
> Been run into with shopping carts?
> It was a fun time.<g>
> Nowadays most price checkers are greeted at the door with a cup of coffee and
> free donut.

Things get to Texas quick enough!

Grant



"James T. Kirby" wrote:

> Robert wrote:
>
> > Explain the difference between my complaint about higher prices in Canada and
> > you bitching about slow shipping to the US?
> >
> > I have only ONE complaint as well.
>
> I'm always surprised to hear anyone complain about slow shipping from Lee
> Valley. I had always assumed they
> had salvaged the transporter from one of the earlier Enterprises. I guess
> Delaware just isn't very far away.
>
> JK

As you say most provinces charge a health tax on employers however, in
the overall scheme of things if you add the cost of extended health
benefits paid by employers the private sector in Canada is paying for an
about 30% of health care although our Federal and Provincial Governments
do not like to acknowledge that.

Glen Duff
------------------

mp wrote:

>>>Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign
>>>companies
>>>setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
>>>largely paid for by the Canadian public.
>>>
>>Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
>>hypothesis,
>>too bad you don't have facts to back it.
>>
>
> Perhaps I can explain it a bit better to you. Some provinces charge health
> care premiums, some don't. The amount that some provinces charge is minimal,
> for instance, British Columbia charges $50 per month per person. This is
> only a token amount, a mere pittance in the overall operating costs. The
> majority of the funding for the health care system is shared between the
> provincial and federal governments (i.e. the Canadian public).
>
> Sometimes the employer picks up the $50 per month premium as part of the
> employee benefit package but that can hardly be considered as you suggest,
> health care being paid for by the employer.
>
>
>

Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
>he must give his American customers a better deal.

If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
produce it. He said that they set their prices when they print their
catalog, and thereafter price differences accrue as the currency
exchange rates change. The better deal for American customers is only
an artifact of their falling dollar. Rob Lee has no control on the
value of the U.S. dollar; it is completely out of his hands.

Ken Muldrew
[email protected]
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:04:02 GMT, [email protected] (Ken Muldrew) wrote:
>
>>Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
>>>he must give his American customers a better deal.
>>
>>If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
>>produce it. He said that they set their prices when they print their
>>catalog, and thereafter price differences accrue as the currency
>>exchange rates change.
>
>Um, no, he did not say that.

"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in

this forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.

They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another
with the exchange rates. I'm sure that they do not only have to be
concerned with US/CDN rates, but also the currencies of suppliers."

To which Robin Lee replied

"Hi Stephen -

Thanks for the clear and correct explanation - yes - we set our
rates in June, and hold for a year..."

So, um, yes, he did say that after all.

>He said prices are set differently to compete in
>the different market places. Less competition in Canada means Lee Valley can
>charge higher prices to Canadians.

I've looked through Google Groups and I can find no such statement
(which is why I asked you to produce a quote to back up your
accusation). Can you please quote the message that gave you this idea
that Canadians are subsidizing the American market?

Ken Muldrew
[email protected]
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:04:02 GMT, [email protected] (Ken Muldrew)
>wrote:
>
>>Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
>>>he must give his American customers a better deal.
>>
>>If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
>>produce it.
>
>Why is that an "egregious accusation"?

Because it is a lie. Where I come from, public statements that are
intended to malign someone's character dishonestly are considered
egregious. Perhaps people conduct themselves differently where you
live.

> I'm sure LV is in business to
>make money by charging what the market will bear. They're not a
>charity organization, after all.

Of course. I trust that you now see my point was different from what
you surmised.

>If you like the products they offer for the prices they offer them at,
>great- if not, vote with your feet.

We are in agreement here.

>I'm amazed that this even needs
>to be discussed!

It doesn't.

Ken Muldrew
[email protected]
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:00:25 GMT, [email protected] (Ken Muldrew) wrote:
>
>>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>Why is that an "egregious accusation"?
>>
>>Because it is a lie.
>
>It's not. Read below. Americans get a better because of a more competitive
>marketplace. Lee said so.

Your quote shows only that their pricing remains competitive despite
the havoc that has been created for them through the growing currency
discrepancy. Your vivid imagination has created a theory with no basis
in fact, and you have sadly used that theory to launch a petulant
attack in a public forum. That is unfortunate, but at least it is just
a mistake rather than a lie. An honest fool.

Ken Muldrew
[email protected]
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:55:06 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>A few years ago I drove up to Rattlesnake Point in Ontario to go climbing.
>Around Hamilton my partner and I discovered that we thought the other was
>bringing the rope. We stopped at a sporting goods store and bought a US
>made rope for C$135. Turns out the price here is US$135 and the rope
>company didn't bother to print a Canadian price list! So, they were selling
>in Canada at a 25% discount.
>
>Just in general, MEC in Toronto sells many products at a third less then
>they are sold for here, but they have an agreement with the manufacturer not
>to ship to the US.
>
>So, it cuts both ways.
>
It would cut both ways if Lee Valley had Canadian competition but they don't.
At least not in mail order or online.
If I lived in a large city this probably wouldn't be an issue.
I will likely spend around $1500 online this Christmas between companies like
Futureshop, Mark's Work Wearhouse, and Lee Valley.
I rarely visit the stores, in fact I've never seen a Lee Valley and haven't been
in a mall in 10 years.
I shop online, mail order, or not at all.

Robert wrote:
> I was making a point.
> Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
> Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

In your other thread on those aluminum bar clamps, you state that
Princess Auto claims their product is identical to the LV clamps. Can
you *VERIFY* this? (Andy has posted a cursory analysis saying they are
not the same.) I think you can provide real value (and real
information) to this newsgroup by doing a comparison. A webpage with
some close-up photos and your review of the two products would add
serious weight to your claim, assuming they are the same. (And LV will
of course take their clamp back if you decide it's not worth the price
you paid.)

If I were close to the Mississauga Princess Auto I'd go over and take a
look... but I'm not.

But a real comparision is really Canadian vs US big name brews (i.e. Bud vs
Labatt's), or Canadian vs US micro brews. Comparing one countries big names
to another countries micro's is hardly fair.

Clint

"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:42:00 -0400, "Buck Turgidson"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
> >stick,
> >> from a Canadian company.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, but your beer is better.
>
>
> Whaa?
>
> Have you actually tried American micro brews, or just Budweiser and
> Miller products? <G>
>
> Barry

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:50:40 GMT, Robert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
>Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

In my town I can buy an awful lot of "third party stuff" that looks
the same. Product development seems to be on the basis of one factory
blatantly copying another. But this low-end stuff usually isn't
_quite_ the same, if you look closely. If you ever see a new sort of
Chinese clamp selling for .99c, then buy a handful, and buy them that
day. Because by the time the second boatload lands, they'll have
worked out how to make them more cheaply and less well.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:19:31 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
>> I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.
>
>That's nothin'. Once I was whapped upside the head with a package of
>Twizzlers.

Red or black?
The black hurt more.<g>

>Another time someone threw a whole case of Peeps at me - I
>tell you, it almost made me take a step backward.

Have you had your suit spray painted or squirted with glue?
Been run into with shopping carts?
It was a fun time.<g>
Nowadays most price checkers are greeted at the door with a cup of coffee and
free donut.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:34:28 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:11 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>> >Robert -
>> >
>> >It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
>> >objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of
>businesses
>> >in general
>>
>> Robin there is nothing positive about bragging 'competitive' pricing.
>> Competitive price has nothing to do with 'fair' pricing and you know it.
>> Fair value for our customers at a fair price is something to brag about.
>
><snip>
>
>See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
>from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>
I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of business practices. I was a buyer
for Eatons.

>I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>
Yeah but our price on that tuna was 5 cents cheaper.;-)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:21:01 +0100, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:16:54 GMT, Robert
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
>>Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
>
>You're absolutely right.
>
>Over the last twenty years we've seen a huge shift to this "global
>Walmart" approach. Everything mass retail is now cheaper than it was
>twenty years ago, even in dollar terms, not just in real terms.
>Tool-wise I used to have the best toolkit on the block when I was just
>starting out, now B&Q (our orange borg) are selling tools I only
>dreamed of back then, and the TV shows suggest you can't do a thing
>unless you own the latest colour of plastic sanding machine.
>
>Everything now is made in the same handful of Chinese factories, works
>equally badly, breaks in no time and the only discriminator left is
>price. So we take a full-steam-ahead slam into a Thatcherite monopoly
>where the only retailers left are Walmart and McDonalds. "Competitive"
>pricing delivers low prices, but it also removes every retailer except
>the very highest up the size and economy scale.
>
>But I don't want cheap tools, I want _good_ tools. I now have the
>ability to affordably buy more rubbish tools than I could previously
>imagine. So why am I buying so few of them ? Why does my Dad bring
>back a bagful of junk every time he goes shopping, and I don't even
>bother looking unless it's either 50 years old or was hand-made by
>elves somewhere and with a pricetag to match. I would _love_ to deal
>with someone who's makign the product I want to buy, and sticking a
>reasonable markup on it. I won't even look at the price tag ! I'll
>maybe buy fewer of them, or wait longer before I buy it, but I'm
>basically going to buy that grommet-flanger someday because I've
>already decided I need one, whatever the price, not just because its
>under $5 and her off the telly was using one.
>
>Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
>of seems to be Lee Valley. I agree with what you claim to be in favour
>of ! So why are you then griping and applauding Princess Auto, when
>they indulge in the sort of barrel-scraping I abhor ?
>


>LV aren't making Holteys. They aren't shifting a million Eeezy-Set
>"Handyman" models every week. They're developing and manufacturing a
>tool (like their bench planes) that steals every good idea out there,
>then manufactures it to the highest standard that a bench woodworker
>can notice. And then the pricetag is still better than all the other
>companies that are even vaguely comparable.
>
I was making a point.
Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

I'm not disputing that Lee Valley has a line of superior tools of their own.
Unfortunately I'm a power tool fanatic, hand tools are not for me.

I have dozens of tools, kitchen, and garden items from Lee Valley.
They are my #1 Christmas gift supplier, have been for years.
All my saw blades, bandsaw blades, sanding supplies, all come from Lee Valley.
I have bought out the gift item store.
From 5 strobe flashlights (very popular with teens) to 4 kitchen Cleavers, and
three Lee Valley knife sets. My last two wedding gifts came from Lee Valley and
the recipients are now big Lee Valley fans themselves.
If it's stainless and for the kitchen I've bought it from Lee Valley. I never
compared price. I never shopped around.

I just got tired of seeing Americans pay less than me in EVERY succeeding Lee
Valley catalog. From a Canadian company!
I'm not surprised to see all the Americans in this group support Robin.
We Canadians get hosed, so they can get a deal.

>
>>There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
>>goods.
>>They are worth their weight in gold.
>
>Mainly they've gone bust.

True, we still have a few who service the construction trade in my area.

>The mass-market just isn't buying on that
>basis. Record are gone. Clifton make their real money from megabuck
>tools for aerospace. Stanley has been junk for years.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:23:44 -0500, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quit whining- If you want compensation for your ummm... severe?
>gouging, take a look at how much less you pay for prescription drugs.
>Or go buy your stuff from one of the other suppliers.

Sorry, my original 'whining' post was ON topic for this news group by virtue of
Robin Lee's participation here.
Now that this has become a flame war rather than a rational discussion of the
facts, every post is on topic.
Even your lame assed post.<g>

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:14:54 -0400, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Have you ever tried real Canadian beer and not that watered down stuff they
>export to the U.S.?

Why, yes! <G>

Barry

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:30:18 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robert wrote:
>
> I'm off to check the cupboard for tuna.
>
> UA100

I hate when they get tuna in my dolphin meat.

Robert,

Pricing based on cost is fundamentally flawed. (I'm making some
assumptions on what you mean when you say "fair markup" - that the price
is somehow algorithmically related to only the cost. If I'm wrong, I'm
sure you'll let me know...)

What if a product was of a certain utility but cost much more to produce
than the value the product provided? Would you charge the usual markup
over the high production cost? Nobody would buy it.

What if a product provided immense utility, time or labor savings, etc.,
and you could only charge the standard markup over cost? This would be
a major disincentive for inventing anything new and better; why would
you spend all that R&D money? Your benefit for your innovation would
be limited to your standard markup (but you'd probably get everyone
buying your thing instead of the other).

If you can invent something that provides immense value (patent it), you
can set a price that reflects this value provided, and customers who see
the value will gladly pay the price. The cost basically determes profit
(or lack thereof).

Just to throw a wrench into everything, read this:
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/68/pricing.html


Robert wrote:
> There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
> Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
> There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
> goods.
> They are worth their weight in gold.
> It's too bad Lee Valley isn't one of them.

On 28-Oct-2004, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:

> Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
> of seems to be Lee Valley.

What are the options if a Canadian wants to take their business elsewhere?
I've checked the LV prices against other companies' products and the
prices aren't much lower elsewhere. Some are higher and some are lower.
Overall, LV prices are a tad high, but with LV in business, I know I
can get good to superb quality tools and widgets at a reasonable price.
If I lose LV, I get to buy very expensive stuff from the US or buy
mostly crap locally. I'm willing to pay a few bucks more to get LV
products reliably (and I've got two stores within an hour's drive :-)

LV has not raised their prices significantly in the last year. What
has happened is that the US$ has sunk a lot. If C$ pricing was fair
in the past, then why is it suddenly high just because the US$ is
falling through the floor?

Quit yer bellyaching. I'd gladly trade a gazillion Walmarts for one LV.

Mike

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:36:22 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> >AFAIK, we're competitive in either country....against vendors in that
> >country.
>
> It's sad to see this.
>
> There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
> Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
> There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on
their
> goods.
> They are worth their weight in gold.
> It's too bad Lee Valley isn't one of them.

Robert -

It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of businesses
in general - to always assume the most negative motivation, or least
flattering interpretation of a statement.

Frankly - I don't think I can give you any answer or explanation that'll
make you happy.

Have a good day...

Cheers -

Rob Lee

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:59:26 -0400, "Stephen M"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
> >forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
> >
> >They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
> >exchange rates.
>
> Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.
>
> Unless it's possible to use a Canadian credit card and order in US funds.
> Anyone try this?

Lot's have tried - none have succeeded....

No one's "taking lumps"...well, besides us. American customers are getting a
deal .... as Canadian customers do when the exchange runs the other way...

Cheers -

Rob

"Ray Aldridge" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:43:54 -0400, Rob Lee wrote:
>
> > We don't operate shipping as a profit center now (which means our
current
> > shipping charges do not cover the cost of shipping, let alone
> > "handling")....
>
> Not to change the subject, but my catalogs show an address in Ogdensburg,
> NY. Is there actually a store there, or is this just a U.S. maildrop?
>

Hi Ray -

No store there , we have a shipping and receiving warehouse. Only 60 miles
south of Ottawa.

Cheers -

Rob

Pantload.

Hey Keith...that felt good!

:)

It's been a LONG day ...

my apologies.

Thanks for the VAT/GST info.


Rick


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rick:
>
> I should have been clearer, I meant block plane, not aero-plane.
> The LV prices are before the (15% in Ontario) PST & GST.
>

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:

> unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
> Health Care covered. Two explanations:
>
> - You are dead wrong
> or
> - You two are talking about different things.

Third alternative - you don't understand.

OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
unemployed get coverage regardless.

Mike

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:11 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> >Robert -
> >
> >It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
> >objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of
businesses
> >in general
>
> Robin there is nothing positive about bragging 'competitive' pricing.
> Competitive price has nothing to do with 'fair' pricing and you know it.
> Fair value for our customers at a fair price is something to brag about.

<snip>

See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
from that you infer an entire set of business practices...

I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....

Cheers -

Rob

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> <snip>
>
> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>
> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob

Reminds me of a saying my father used. "Some folks would kick if they got
hung with a new rope!" Indicating that there's no pleasing everyone.

I'd be happier if you had a 'fast shipping option', since I'm on the Left
Coast of the US. No one has ever accused me of excess patience...

But other than that, no complaints.

Patriarch

> Robert wrote:
>
>> Explain the difference between my complaint about higher prices in
>> Canada and you bitching about slow shipping to the US?
>>
>> I have only ONE complaint as well.
>

IF I had a complaint, it wasn't that shipping was slow. It was that I
couldn't get instant gratification.

Shipping has so far always been as promised, and very reasonably priced.

Were I to order by telephone, and not by the web site, I likely COULD have
gotten faster shipping methods. But I didn't, I don't, and I still think
they, LV, do a great job.

Patriarch

"Rick" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Keith ... you said it better than I possibly could ... and faster too!
>
> Let me see ... Sams has those 10 pound cans of tuna ...whatcha think
> ... an even dozen?
>

Discovery Channel had a special on Midwest Pumpkin Chunking contests. Do
you think one of those babies could be modified? ;-)

"mp" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>> If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
>> out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein
>> tools in particular, for a cold douche.
>
> One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159
> USD ($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 -
> $15 extra cost, but why is Dewalt charging double?
>

Subsidized health care? Technical support lines in French Canadian? Local
content regulation?

Doing business across ANY border is a puzzle. This is one reason that
NAFTA was proposed, and, in some form, instituted. Notice just how easily
that project went together.

Notice how almost all threads devolve to politics?

Patriarch

[email protected] (JohnD) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> Notice how almost all threads devolve to politics?
>
> Patriarch
>
> You devolved the thread to politics. I spoke of pricing decisions.
> You brought up NAFTA, etc. Nice to be so self-aware.
>

John,

Understanding pricing decisions in different, yet related and connected
economies is inherently political.

And it seems only in contentious election cycles that politics is a
perjorative.

Politics is the very messy process whereby people make decisions on how
they will deal with a complex, uncertain world. Thank whatever belief
system you espouse that we have those options.

Patriarch

[email protected] (JohnD) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
> as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
> to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
> arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
> in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
> cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
> not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
> the economic reality driving the price difference.
>

Does the scale and geographic diversity of the market have no effect?
Fixed costs, specific to the country, spread over a smaller sales base?

Recall also, in the US, Lee Valley ONLY has the web/catalog sales model to
support, without bricks and mortar retail.

Patriarch

[email protected] (JohnD) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Flights are cheaper in the US because there is more competition for
> passengers. This is precisely why the plane is cheaper there, as
> well. More competition leads lo lower profit-maximizing pricing.

Flights are also cheaper, because there are more people wanting to fly, at
any given price.

Patriarch

On 29-Oct-2004, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
> setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
> largely paid for by the Canadian public.

Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice hypothesis,
too bad you don't have facts to back it.

Mike

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:55:06 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >A few years ago I drove up to Rattlesnake Point in Ontario to go
climbing.
> >Around Hamilton my partner and I discovered that we thought the other was
> >bringing the rope. We stopped at a sporting goods store and bought a US
> >made rope for C$135. Turns out the price here is US$135 and the rope
> >company didn't bother to print a Canadian price list! So, they were
selling
> >in Canada at a 25% discount.
> >
> >Just in general, MEC in Toronto sells many products at a third less then
> >they are sold for here, but they have an agreement with the manufacturer
not
> >to ship to the US.
> >
> >So, it cuts both ways.
> >
> It would cut both ways if Lee Valley had Canadian competition but they
don't.
> At least not in mail order or online.
> If I lived in a large city this probably wouldn't be an issue.
> I will likely spend around $1500 online this Christmas between companies
like
> Futureshop, Mark's Work Wearhouse, and Lee Valley.
> I rarely visit the stores, in fact I've never seen a Lee Valley and
haven't been
> in a mall in 10 years.
> I shop online, mail order, or not at all.
>

Robert -

Are you comparing our prices with our competitors in either country, or just
just contrasting our prices in US and CDN dollars?

AFAIK, we're competitive in either country....against vendors in that
country.

We can either float prices daily and make the exchange rate work exactly -
or fix prices and tolerate exchange differences, until we can correct them -
which for us, is annually.

Cheers -

Rob

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:

> What? No, it most certainly is not. *You* have some misunderstanding;
> employers don't even get close to paying full OHIP costs.

You're right - I left out the federal part (the ever declining part
until recently) and whatever comes out of general revenue. However,
to the earlier poster's comment, the employer does not get off scott
free. There are costs to the employer, though likely lower than that
paid to private insurers by US employers.

Mike

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:16:54 GMT, Robert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
>Now it's 'competitive' pricing.

You're absolutely right.

Over the last twenty years we've seen a huge shift to this "global
Walmart" approach. Everything mass retail is now cheaper than it was
twenty years ago, even in dollar terms, not just in real terms.
Tool-wise I used to have the best toolkit on the block when I was just
starting out, now B&Q (our orange borg) are selling tools I only
dreamed of back then, and the TV shows suggest you can't do a thing
unless you own the latest colour of plastic sanding machine.

Everything now is made in the same handful of Chinese factories, works
equally badly, breaks in no time and the only discriminator left is
price. So we take a full-steam-ahead slam into a Thatcherite monopoly
where the only retailers left are Walmart and McDonalds. "Competitive"
pricing delivers low prices, but it also removes every retailer except
the very highest up the size and economy scale.

But I don't want cheap tools, I want _good_ tools. I now have the
ability to affordably buy more rubbish tools than I could previously
imagine. So why am I buying so few of them ? Why does my Dad bring
back a bagful of junk every time he goes shopping, and I don't even
bother looking unless it's either 50 years old or was hand-made by
elves somewhere and with a pricetag to match. I would _love_ to deal
with someone who's makign the product I want to buy, and sticking a
reasonable markup on it. I won't even look at the price tag ! I'll
maybe buy fewer of them, or wait longer before I buy it, but I'm
basically going to buy that grommet-flanger someday because I've
already decided I need one, whatever the price, not just because its
under $5 and her off the telly was using one.

Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
of seems to be Lee Valley. I agree with what you claim to be in favour
of ! So why are you then griping and applauding Princess Auto, when
they indulge in the sort of barrel-scraping I abhor ?

LV aren't making Holteys. They aren't shifting a million Eeezy-Set
"Handyman" models every week. They're developing and manufacturing a
tool (like their bench planes) that steals every good idea out there,
then manufactures it to the highest standard that a bench woodworker
can notice. And then the pricetag is still better than all the other
companies that are even vaguely comparable.


>There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
>goods.
>They are worth their weight in gold.

Mainly they've gone bust. The mass-market just isn't buying on that
basis. Record are gone. Clifton make their real money from megabuck
tools for aerospace. Stanley has been junk for years.

LOL!!

I needed that :)

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:11 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >Robert -
> > >
> > >It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
> > >objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of
> businesses
> > >in general
> >
> > Robin there is nothing positive about bragging 'competitive' pricing.
> > Competitive price has nothing to do with 'fair' pricing and you know it.
> > Fair value for our customers at a fair price is something to brag about.
>
> <snip>
>
> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>
> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>

Keith ... you said it better than I possibly could ... and faster too!

Let me see ... Sams has those 10 pound cans of tuna ...whatcha think ... an
even dozen?


Rick


"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robert wrote:
> >You are not old enough to remember the start of the 'competitive' price
wars.
> >As an assistant manager of a large chain store and by virtue of being a
young
> >muscled 6'2" man I was on the battle front of 'comparison' pricing.
> >London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
> >I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.
>
>
>
>
> I'm off to check the cupboard for tuna.
>
> UA100

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:04:02 GMT, [email protected] (Ken Muldrew) wrote:

>Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
>>he must give his American customers a better deal.
>
>If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
>produce it. He said that they set their prices when they print their
>catalog, and thereafter price differences accrue as the currency
>exchange rates change.

Um, no, he did not say that. He said prices are set differently to compete in
the different market places. Less competition in Canada means Lee Valley can
charge higher prices to Canadians.

>The better deal for American customers is only
>an artifact of their falling dollar. Rob Lee has no control on the
>value of the U.S. dollar; it is completely out of his hands.

He does have control of prices charged on the Lee Valley website.
But he also admitted he needs the exorbitant profits made on Canadian sales to
offset the low prices paid by Americans.

Rob Lee considers this fair, I don't. It's as simple as that.

On 29-Oct-2004, Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

> you don't understand business.

I do understand business. I know why there are a gazillion Walmarts
and only a few LVs. I'm not interested in business - I'm interested
in getting good value for my money. I've been getting that from LV
for years. You've been complaining, but I ain't buying it.

Mike

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:36:22 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:55:06 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >A few years ago I drove up to Rattlesnake Point in Ontario to go
>climbing.
>> >Around Hamilton my partner and I discovered that we thought the other was
>> >bringing the rope. We stopped at a sporting goods store and bought a US
>> >made rope for C$135. Turns out the price here is US$135 and the rope
>> >company didn't bother to print a Canadian price list! So, they were
>selling
>> >in Canada at a 25% discount.
>> >
>> >Just in general, MEC in Toronto sells many products at a third less then
>> >they are sold for here, but they have an agreement with the manufacturer
>not
>> >to ship to the US.
>> >
>> >So, it cuts both ways.
>> >
>> It would cut both ways if Lee Valley had Canadian competition but they
>don't.
>> At least not in mail order or online.
>> If I lived in a large city this probably wouldn't be an issue.
>> I will likely spend around $1500 online this Christmas between companies
>like
>> Futureshop, Mark's Work Wearhouse, and Lee Valley.
>> I rarely visit the stores, in fact I've never seen a Lee Valley and
>haven't been
>> in a mall in 10 years.
>> I shop online, mail order, or not at all.
>>
>
>Robert -
>
>Are you comparing our prices with our competitors in either country, or just
>just contrasting our prices in US and CDN dollars?
>
I guess the difference is that most American companies have a fixed US price but
for Canadians they apply the exchange rate. This has caused some items from the
States to become pretty good bargains.

>AFAIK, we're competitive in either country....against vendors in that
>country.
>
>We can either float prices daily and make the exchange rate work exactly -
>or fix prices and tolerate exchange differences, until we can correct them -
>which for us, is annually.
>
Or just offer free shipping in Canada until Christmas.<g>

>Cheers -
>
>Rob
>
>
>
>

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:58:31 GMT, patriarch
<<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:

>"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
>> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>>
>> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>>
>> Cheers -
>>
>> Rob
>
>Reminds me of a saying my father used. "Some folks would kick if they got
>hung with a new rope!" Indicating that there's no pleasing everyone.
>
>I'd be happier if you had a 'fast shipping option', since I'm on the Left
>Coast of the US. No one has ever accused me of excess patience...
>
>But other than that, no complaints.
>
Explain the difference between my complaint about higher prices in Canada and
you bitching about slow shipping to the US?

I have only ONE complaint as well.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:30:18 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robert wrote:
>>You are not old enough to remember the start of the 'competitive' price wars.
>>As an assistant manager of a large chain store and by virtue of being a young
>>muscled 6'2" man I was on the battle front of 'comparison' pricing.
>>London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
>>I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.
>
>
>
>
>I'm off to check the cupboard for tuna.
>
I'd prefer salmon, if you have it.

So, let me get this straight; you're pissed that your the loon is worth more
these days?

BTW, you could use a US credit card and place order in US$ if you really
wanted to.

Come to think of it, my brother-in-law Jaques (In Montreal) had me order a
center-finding rule from them on my last order. I thought He just wanted to
save the shipping :-)

Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.

They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
exchange rates. I'm sure that they do not only have to be concerned with
US/CDN rates, but also the currencies of suppliers.

Such is life in a world economy.


"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
stick,
> from a Canadian company.
>

> Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.
>

No. Since presumably most of LV's expenses are Cdn$. Perhaps this is overly
siplistic but if LV sets their prices based on a certain gross profit
margin, the Canadian Customer pricing stays "right-sized".

As the value of the loon increases, LV's margin on a US sale goes down.
Because LV is ultimately paid in Cdn funds; LV takes it in the shorts. Of
course if the Loon goes down LV gets a bonus.

The Canadian customer does not get "shafted". Perhaps they do not get the
same attractive pricing which is currently available to the US market, but
they are not paying a premium.

I just hope that the Loon does really well for the next couple months while
LV recalibrates their prices. Then when the pendulum swings back the other
way, I'll use my Wife's Cdn credit card for all of my LV purchases.

*God I love LV* so many ways to buy great stuff.

-Steve

"Bob Peterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> could it be that Canadians pay the tax and exported items do not?

That's not entirely true.

I pay New York State Sales Tax on my LV orders because of their shipping
presence in Ogdensberg, NY.

It's bummer to have to pay sales tax but it's nice to be able to count on
2nd day delivery for a UPS-ground shipment.

-Steve

Robin Lee wrote:
> "Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:11 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
>
> wrote:
>
>>>Robert -
>>>
>>>It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
>>>objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of
>
> businesses
>
>>>in general
>>
>>Robin there is nothing positive about bragging 'competitive' pricing.
>>Competitive price has nothing to do with 'fair' pricing and you know it.
>>Fair value for our customers at a fair price is something to brag about.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> See what I mean?? All I wrote was that our prices were competitive...and
> from that you infer an entire set of business practices...
>
> I give up (and now understand the guy with the tuna : ) ....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>
>Rob, I still like you :^) Thanks for the bullnose plane.

JK


>


--
James T. Kirby
Center for Applied Coastal Research
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716

phone: 302-831-2438
fax: 302-831-1228
email: [email protected]
http://chinacat.coastal.udel.edu/~kirby

Robert wrote:

> Explain the difference between my complaint about higher prices in Canada and
> you bitching about slow shipping to the US?
>
> I have only ONE complaint as well.

I'm always surprised to hear anyone complain about slow shipping from Lee
Valley. I had always assumed they
had salvaged the transporter from one of the earlier Enterprises. I guess
Delaware just isn't very far away.

JK

>
> I just got tired of seeing Americans pay less than me in EVERY succeeding
Lee
> Valley catalog. From a Canadian company!
> I'm not surprised to see all the Americans in this group support Robin.
> We Canadians get hosed, so they can get a deal.

If the US$ had done better, the US consumer would take a hit and LV would
get and exchange bonus. At the same time sales would be likely lost due to
the percieved increase in pricing mitigating that "windfall".

The system is brought about by LV's business decision to set prices, publish
and annual catalog and then stick with the published pices for the entire
year. This is a choice that I as a consumer appreciate.

Sidebar: My dad had the unpleasant experience of having to argue with a
McFeeleys rep to get a product to the price listed in a current catalogue.
It's a good example of the alternative. Personally I think Mcfeeleys screws
are great but *My* first-hand experience was that their customer service
....well it ain't LV.

The downside to LV's policy is that they end up selling at prices based on
an exchange rate that is up to 16 months old.

It seems to me that the *only* way to satisfy your concerns are the
following alternatives:

1. Floating US pricing based on exchange - A serious turn off to US
customers because they can't look at a product an know what it costs

2. Only sell in CAD funds and thet the credit card companis work the
exchange - Essentially the same thing

3. Make the catalogs/pricing pulication quarterly.

Robert you do have a point that ultimately the whole customer base pays for
the conversion "expenses" incurred by LV in terms of next year's pricing.
So, in a very convoluted way, you are subsidizing my tool habit. Thank you.

However, when I go to the stupidmarket for a gallon of milk at $4.09 (which
the retailer uses as a cash cow) Am I not subsidizing the tuna eaters (of
which I am not one) who can buy the loss-leading Tuna which you yourself
have driven down in price?

That's it, I'm pissed at Robert for spiraling down the tuna costs so that I
have to pay more for milk!

:-)

-Steve

"JohnD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
> as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
> to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
> arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
> in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
> cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
> not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
> the economic reality driving the price difference.
>

yeahbutt. you are comparing todays's exchange rate to pricing that was set
on an exchange rate that was probably set some time ago. Rob already told us
that they set that in June, but that may be '03 in this case once you figure
in the lead times for catalog production.

According to the Bank of Canada:

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/exchange-look.htm

Today: 1.23
June 1, 2003 1.3685
June 1, 2004 1.3695


So basically we're talking about a 3% difference between their pricing and
the exchange rate at the time the prices were set.

I just don't see where the there is a conpiracy to screw the locals here.

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Difference? Only in product.
> They appear to have a virtually identical pricing policy.

For all your warnings and complaints against Lee Valley Tools, there's one
thing you haven't commented on and that's Princess Auto's reputation for
selling low end products. I live in Ontario and I've been to one of their
stores a few times. The products they sell are almost always a cheap
knock-off from the original product, a no name product, or an off brand name
that very few have heard off. Anybody viewing their online catalogue can
confirm that in an instant. The place reeks of low quality.

I don't know about the bar clamps that you're comparing to Lee Valley, but
from the few times I've visited Princess Auto, I'd wouldn't buy from them
unless I needed something really quick and they were nearby. I certainly
wouldn't expect that product to fulfill any long lasting need.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:39:04 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:59:26 -0400, "Stephen M"
><[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
>> >forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
>> >
>> >They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
>> >exchange rates.
>>
>> Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.
>>
>> Unless it's possible to use a Canadian credit card and order in US funds.
>> Anyone try this?
>
>Lot's have tried - none have succeeded....
>
>No one's "taking lumps"...well, besides us. American customers are getting a
>deal .... as Canadian customers do when the exchange runs the other way...

No one's taking lumps ordering from LV at all, as far as I can tell.
Sure beats the heck out of Woodcraft or Rockler!

>Cheers -
>
>Rob
>

A pair of village idiots who can't read wrote:

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:00:25 GMT, [email protected] (Ken Muldrew) wrote:

>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>>Why is that an "egregious accusation"?
>
>Because it is a lie.

It's not. Read below. Americans get a better because of a more competitive
marketplace. Lee said so.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:36:22 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:55:06 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >A few years ago I drove up to Rattlesnake Point in Ontario to go
>climbing.
>> >Around Hamilton my partner and I discovered that we thought the other was
>> >bringing the rope. We stopped at a sporting goods store and bought a US
>> >made rope for C$135. Turns out the price here is US$135 and the rope
>> >company didn't bother to print a Canadian price list! So, they were
>selling
>> >in Canada at a 25% discount.
>> >
>> >Just in general, MEC in Toronto sells many products at a third less then
>> >they are sold for here, but they have an agreement with the manufacturer
>not
>> >to ship to the US.
>> >
>> >So, it cuts both ways.
>> >
>> It would cut both ways if Lee Valley had Canadian competition but they
>don't.
>> At least not in mail order or online.
>> If I lived in a large city this probably wouldn't be an issue.
>> I will likely spend around $1500 online this Christmas between companies
>like
>> Futureshop, Mark's Work Wearhouse, and Lee Valley.
>> I rarely visit the stores, in fact I've never seen a Lee Valley and
>haven't been
>> in a mall in 10 years.
>> I shop online, mail order, or not at all.
>>
>
>Robert -
>
>Are you comparing our prices with our competitors in either country, or just
>just contrasting our prices in US and CDN dollars?
>
>AFAIK, we're competitive in either country....against vendors in that
>country.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:11 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robert -
>
>It seems no matter what questions I answer for you - you make some
>objectionable attribution. You must really have a poor opinion of businesses
>in general

Robin there is nothing positive about bragging 'competitive' pricing.
Competitive price has nothing to do with 'fair' pricing and you know it.
Fair value for our customers at a fair price is something to brag about.

You are not old enough to remember the start of the 'competitive' price wars.
As an assistant manager of a large chain store and by virtue of being a young
muscled 6'2" man I was on the battle front of 'comparison' pricing.
London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.
I can't count the stores that threw me out.
Ahh, those were the days.<g>

All that said I love Lee Valley, your prices may be suspect right now but your
customer service is definitely 'old school' and in a class all it's own.
I'm willing to pay more for that.
I just wish those damned Americans were paying the same price.:)

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:15:18 -0500, Village Idiot "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Rob Lee considers this fair, I don't. It's as simple as that.
>
>And in the same vein, you're an asshole, so what else is there to say?
>
Well I could say I Rob Lee has proved himself to be both an asshole and a
spammer but I won't.;-)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:50:40 GMT, Robert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:21:01 +0100, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:16:54 GMT, Robert
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
>>>Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
>>
>>You're absolutely right.
>>
>>Over the last twenty years we've seen a huge shift to this "global
>>Walmart" approach. Everything mass retail is now cheaper than it was
>>twenty years ago, even in dollar terms, not just in real terms.
>>Tool-wise I used to have the best toolkit on the block when I was just
>>starting out, now B&Q (our orange borg) are selling tools I only
>>dreamed of back then, and the TV shows suggest you can't do a thing
>>unless you own the latest colour of plastic sanding machine.
>>
>>Everything now is made in the same handful of Chinese factories, works
>>equally badly, breaks in no time and the only discriminator left is
>>price. So we take a full-steam-ahead slam into a Thatcherite monopoly
>>where the only retailers left are Walmart and McDonalds. "Competitive"
>>pricing delivers low prices, but it also removes every retailer except
>>the very highest up the size and economy scale.
>>
>>But I don't want cheap tools, I want _good_ tools. I now have the
>>ability to affordably buy more rubbish tools than I could previously
>>imagine. So why am I buying so few of them ? Why does my Dad bring
>>back a bagful of junk every time he goes shopping, and I don't even
>>bother looking unless it's either 50 years old or was hand-made by
>>elves somewhere and with a pricetag to match. I would _love_ to deal
>>with someone who's makign the product I want to buy, and sticking a
>>reasonable markup on it. I won't even look at the price tag ! I'll
>>maybe buy fewer of them, or wait longer before I buy it, but I'm
>>basically going to buy that grommet-flanger someday because I've
>>already decided I need one, whatever the price, not just because its
>>under $5 and her off the telly was using one.
>>
>>Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
>>of seems to be Lee Valley. I agree with what you claim to be in favour
>>of ! So why are you then griping and applauding Princess Auto, when
>>they indulge in the sort of barrel-scraping I abhor ?
>>
>
>
>>LV aren't making Holteys. They aren't shifting a million Eeezy-Set
>>"Handyman" models every week. They're developing and manufacturing a
>>tool (like their bench planes) that steals every good idea out there,
>>then manufactures it to the highest standard that a bench woodworker
>>can notice. And then the pricetag is still better than all the other
>>companies that are even vaguely comparable.
>>
>I was making a point.
>Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
>Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.
>
>I'm not disputing that Lee Valley has a line of superior tools of their own.
>Unfortunately I'm a power tool fanatic, hand tools are not for me.
>
>I have dozens of tools, kitchen, and garden items from Lee Valley.
>They are my #1 Christmas gift supplier, have been for years.
>All my saw blades, bandsaw blades, sanding supplies, all come from Lee Valley.
>I have bought out the gift item store.
>From 5 strobe flashlights (very popular with teens) to 4 kitchen Cleavers, and
>three Lee Valley knife sets. My last two wedding gifts came from Lee Valley and
>the recipients are now big Lee Valley fans themselves.
>If it's stainless and for the kitchen I've bought it from Lee Valley. I never
>compared price. I never shopped around.
>
>I just got tired of seeing Americans pay less than me in EVERY succeeding Lee
>Valley catalog. From a Canadian company!
>I'm not surprised to see all the Americans in this group support Robin.
>We Canadians get hosed, so they can get a deal.

Quit whining- If you want compensation for your ummm... severe?
gouging, take a look at how much less you pay for prescription drugs.
Or go buy your stuff from one of the other suppliers.

>>>There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
>>>goods.
>>>They are worth their weight in gold.
>>
>>Mainly they've gone bust.
>
>True, we still have a few who service the construction trade in my area.
>
>>The mass-market just isn't buying on that
>>basis. Record are gone. Clifton make their real money from megabuck
>>tools for aerospace. Stanley has been junk for years.

"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, let me get this straight; you're pissed that your the loon is worth
more
> these days?
>
> BTW, you could use a US credit card and place order in US$ if you really
> wanted to.
>
> Come to think of it, my brother-in-law Jaques (In Montreal) had me order
a
> center-finding rule from them on my last order. I thought He just wanted
to
> save the shipping :-)
>
> Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
> forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
>
> They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
> exchange rates. I'm sure that they do not only have to be concerned with
> US/CDN rates, but also the currencies of suppliers.
>
> Such is life in a world economy.
>
>
> "Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
> stick,
> > from a Canadian company.
> >>

Hi Stephen -

Thanks for the clear and correct explanation - yes - we set our rates in
June, and hold for a year...

Not only do we eat exchange differences, but cost increases from vendors -
and with the price of steel and fuel increasing, it's not insignificant.

The only "error" in your post is that Robert can't purchase from us in
Canadian dollars - the currency we trade in is based on the destination (or
point of delivery).

Cheers -

Rob Lee

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:08:31 -0500, "Grant P. Beagles"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>We had a group of Boy Scouts run out of a grocery for comparison shopping as part
>of a merit badge requirement. I would have stayed if there was coffee!
>
I suspect if you walked into Lee valley and started pointing out to the
customers that Lee Valleys Stainless Steel Bucket $28.50CDN is only $9.88CDN
down the street at Princess Auto you wouldn't get any free coffee either.<g>

I'm not complaining mind you, just sorta pointing it out.
That's one hell of a markup Robin.:)

In article <[email protected]>,
Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

> London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
> I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.

That's nothin'. Once I was whapped upside the head with a package of
Twizzlers. Another time someone threw a whole case of Peeps at me - I
tell you, it almost made me take a step backward.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring."
-- Ann Hayman Zwinger

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:43:54 -0400, Rob Lee wrote:

> We don't operate shipping as a profit center now (which means our current
> shipping charges do not cover the cost of shipping, let alone
> "handling")....

Not to change the subject, but my catalogs show an address in Ogdensburg,
NY. Is there actually a store there, or is this just a U.S. maildrop?

In article <[email protected]>,
"Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 29-Oct-2004, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
> > setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
> > largely paid for by the Canadian public.
>
> Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
> hypothesis,
> too bad you don't have facts to back it.
>

Funny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
Health Care covered. Two explanations:

- You are dead wrong
or
- You two are talking about different things. "Health care" from a
"plan" such as is offered by an employer, is additional health care
which covers such things as dentistry, travel coverage, a portion of
eyewear and prescriptions (especially). These things are not covered by
the government. The government plan covers operations, doctors visits,
etc; mostly everything except the ones I listed. Travel coverage is a
bit weird and too complex to go into here. The employer does *not* pay
for this care; it is out of conventional gov revenue.

PK

In article <[email protected]>,
Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the stick,
> from a Canadian company.

I noted that as well. In some fairness to LV, setting a price is
extremely difficult for an annual catalog business; you have to take
some guesses as to what the exchange rates will be for the whole year
and take some kind of weighted average (business is not the same the
whole year). Purely web businesses have it easier of course; they can
change prices daily.

Given that my experience with LV has them pegged at extremely honesty
and good service, I will give them a break this time and assume that
they believe that the C$ will go down (or american dollar up, either
way...) in the following months. I would like to hear from them though.

PK

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (mnterpfan) wrote:

> This may be a dumb@$$ question, but, how come I can't actually see any
> of Robert's postings? I can only read snippets in responses. I don't
> think that I have set any filtering.
>
> Have his postings been removed?


Not a dumb question. For one reason or another (my vote is that he is a
coward or ashamed of his statements), Robert sets a flag (the
X-NoArchive flag) to yes which states the posters desire to not have the
post permanently archived. Google groups honors this request and only
stores the posts for a short time. I am not sure about the original
groups.google.com, but the new beta seems to store them for a few days.

PK

In article <[email protected]>,
"Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
> > Health Care covered. Two explanations:
> >
> > - You are dead wrong
> > or
> > - You two are talking about different things.
>
> Third alternative - you don't understand.
>
> OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
> employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
> At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
> unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
> unemployed get coverage regardless.
>
> Mike

I already answered this once, but here is more info:

I think you are referring to the Employer Health Tax. This is a surchage
to employers for health taxes. See

http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfiles/page_attachments/Library/3/irie_eh
t_guide_for_employers_march_2003.htm#link17

I think if you have a look at the rates and the cost per person of
health care, you will discover it doesn't even get close to paying for
it. It is just another tax grab whilst claiming to have the tax rate set
(or even reduced); not that I mind paying taxes for services received, I
just hate it when they are dishonest about the whole thing.

Anyway, you have been misinformed; I encourage you to explore the issue
yourself to verify that. Even write them an email.

PK

In article <[email protected]>,
"Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
> > Health Care covered. Two explanations:
> >
> > - You are dead wrong
> > or
> > - You two are talking about different things.
>
> Third alternative - you don't understand.
>
> OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
> employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
> At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
> unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
> unemployed get coverage regardless.

What? No, it most certainly is not. *You* have some misunderstanding;
employers don't even get close to paying full OHIP costs. Where on earth
did you get such information?

PK

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:46:36 -0400, Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the stick,
>> from a Canadian company.
>
>I noted that as well. In some fairness to LV, setting a price is
>extremely difficult for an annual catalog business; you have to take
>some guesses as to what the exchange rates will be for the whole year
>and take some kind of weighted average (business is not the same the
>whole year). Purely web businesses have it easier of course; they can
>change prices daily.
>
>Given that my experience with LV has them pegged at extremely honesty
>and good service, I will give them a break this time and assume that
>they believe that the C$ will go down (or american dollar up, either
>way...) in the following months. I would like to hear from them though.
>
It could hurt them.
I rarely order from the US because of border hassles but some of the prices
right now make it downright enticing.

I spent a large chunk of my Christmas funds at Lee Valley last year without even
looking around much at all.
But right now I'm spending a lot of time at http://catalogs.google.com/ :)

Robert wrote:
>You are not old enough to remember the start of the 'competitive' price wars.
>As an assistant manager of a large chain store and by virtue of being a young
>muscled 6'2" man I was on the battle front of 'comparison' pricing.
>London Drugs had me arrested TWICE for price checking in their stores.
>I was hit in the back with a can of tuna thrown full force at another.




I'm off to check the cupboard for tuna.

UA100

>
> Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
stick,
> from a Canadian company.
>

Yes, but your beer is better.

Ken Muldrew wrote:
> I've looked through Google Groups and I can find no such statement
> (which is why I asked you to produce a quote to back up your
> accusation). Can you please quote the message that gave you this idea
> that Canadians are subsidizing the American market?

I've asked him to quote as well, he refuses to quote.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:59:26 -0400, "Stephen M" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in this
>forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.
>
>They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another with the
>exchange rates.

Actually at the moment it's their Canadian customers taking the 'lumps'.

Unless it's possible to use a Canadian credit card and order in US funds.
Anyone try this?

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:36:22 -0400, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>AFAIK, we're competitive in either country....against vendors in that
>country.

It's sad to see this.

There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
goods.
They are worth their weight in gold.
It's too bad Lee Valley isn't one of them.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:44:04 GMT, "Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 29-Oct-2004, Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> you don't understand business.
>
>I do understand business. I know why there are a gazillion Walmarts
>and only a few LVs.

Difference? Only in product.
They appear to have a virtually identical pricing policy.

No...but I sample that other "fine" product called
Seagrams VO, which I believe to be from our friends
up north.

The "Crown Royal" ain't too shabby either...

You folks drinking those "training" brews really ought
to try the good stuff from time to time.

Love their slogan:

http://www.vowhisky.com/home/index.html


Nova wrote:
>>Have you actually tried American micro brews, or just Budweiser and
>>Miller products? <G>
>
>
> Have you ever tried real Canadian beer and not that watered down stuff they
> export to the U.S.?

"JohnD" spake thus:
Snip of this and that
> ... If
> you can identifying the cost advantage to a Canadian-made plane
> selling in the US I would love to hear it... I was merely trying to
> explain the observed phenomenon of the pricing spreads, not pass moral
> judgement on Lee Valley.

Well now ... Delta Airlines and their commuter subsidiaries have been flying
CRJs (40 pax model) for several years now. The CRJ ... (Canadair Regional
Jet) is a short-haul jet replacing a number of turboprop planes. The thrust
to weight ratio is very close to 1:1 ... getting you off the ground and up
... QUICK. It's more cost effective than the older turboprops per pax seat
than the turboprops, yet can use the same runways, and beats the 15-25 pax
turboprop loads.

This was AFTER consideration of US short-haul jets ... the CRJs were cheaper
to purchase and fly.



*****

Now I have a question ... does LV's Canadian prices include VAT/GST, or are
they applied separately?


Rick

A few years ago I drove up to Rattlesnake Point in Ontario to go climbing.
Around Hamilton my partner and I discovered that we thought the other was
bringing the rope. We stopped at a sporting goods store and bought a US
made rope for C$135. Turns out the price here is US$135 and the rope
company didn't bother to print a Canadian price list! So, they were selling
in Canada at a 25% discount.

Just in general, MEC in Toronto sells many products at a third less then
they are sold for here, but they have an agreement with the manufacturer not
to ship to the US.

So, it cuts both ways.