Rechargable batteries

"BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fdb564c9-27f1-4b0c-a93a-

most of our cordless use is driving and small holes (1/2" and under)
in wood. Anything other than that and the cord comes out. The 12 and
14v impacts are perfect for us.

Mark

I used 9.6 volt for yeeeeears...Well, actually when Panasonic came out with
the first 9.6 and 12 volt drills. I only recently stopped up to 12 volt
because the 9.6 batteries were getting hard to find.

On Feb 27, 6:08=A0pm, [email protected] (J T) wrote:

> =A0 =A0 =A0Both of my sons own, and use, at their jobs, battery tools.
> Because they often work at job sites with no power available, thus
> require them. =A0At home, I don't think either uses battery tools, just
> corded tools.

For me, if I was working on a site that had no power and wanted to
insure my days pay, the last thing I would rely on is a cordless tool.
I would have a small 1.5 or 2 KW genset (carry with one hand) or a
true sine inverter in the truck. I may still have the cordless but I
surely wouldnt rely on them for my days pay. Too short sighted. An
even further suck factor for cordless tools is many of the chargers
will not perform, or perform at 1/2 power or less, on genset or
inverted (not true sine) power. This means plugging them in to a
generator or low end inverter may result in slow charging or majic
smoke. Buying dedicated 12vdc chargers is a further nudge toward a
good small genset.

Mark

On Feb 25, 10:11 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:

> That's pretty weird. Li-ion batteries are known for holding their
> charges for long periods - the shelf life is measured in years. NiCad
> and NiMH both lose about 1 or 2 percent of their charge per day.

http://www.energizer.com/learning-center/Pages/battery-comparison.aspx

Note that they make NO claims as to the charge holding of the lithium
battery, only that it is lighter, and holds the charge for a long
time. The chart also make a clear delineation when referring to
rechargeable batteries like the NiMH battery you reference for the 1
-2% loss of charge. The lithium battery has no such reference.


> I recently pickes up some Makita Li-ion tools and do notice that they
> drain more quickly in use, but they don't drain at all just sitting
> there.

That last damn drill was such a disappointment I wanted to beat it to
pieces with a hammer. I have no tolerance for tools that don't work.
I got the drill because I liked the feel, and that is certainly
important when you used it primarily as a screw driver.

But what they stress when you buy a lithium powered tool is the fact
that the lithium batteries don't develop a memory. That is their
claim to fame, the fact that you can top them off at will. I didn't
know until this second machine that the fault was the inherent fault
of the batteries and me not understanding their shortcomings.

Check this out it is the most comprehensive look at a lot of
researching I did when trying to return my Makita:

http://tinyurl.com/2ev5x2

I didn't know they had a much more limited life cycle than NiCads when
I popped for $240 for the Makita drill/driver. I didn't know that
they performed best in cooler weather - I live in a heat zone, and
wouldn't care to guess how hot it gets in the tool box every day. Or
on a an asphalt shingle roof, etc.

They work best when you store them at about a half charge. How would
you know that?

You aren't supposed to run the batteries all the way down. That means
when it won't drive that last screw and suddenly stops, you are the
one that gets screwed. Without a damn meter on the battery, how are
you supposed to know until the tool bogs down that you are low on
juice? By then it is too late.

Worse, it says in that document (and I have read it elsewhere) that
lithiums respond best to slow trickle charges. So that means every
time I plug it in to the quick charger I am contributing to its
shorter life. Great.

Look at those charts for ideas of diminishing performance, even under
great conditions.

Nope.. not for me. I was burned once, and although I am sure they
will get the technology where it needs to be, they aren't there yet.


> Battery technology has been a bottleneck for a long time, but there
> does seem to be some interesting developments on the horizon:

Soon I hope - before I need another cordless tool!

Robert

"Charlie Self" wrote

> now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
> woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient.

LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver" that I
always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting slides on the
sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those snap-in undermount
drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in a kitchen in new
construction just this morning.

This little "Harry Homeowner" grade tool will drive a couple hundred 7/16"
screws into maple drawer sides on one "versapack" charge, weighs less than
10 oz, and when the power runs out on the last drawer, can be used as a
screwdriver in a pinch ... AAMOF, that is a handy feature because I can
drive a screw most of the way home on the battery, then torque it down just
right, by hand, without removing the bit from the screw ... gotta love it
for that.

Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! ;)

But, if I could find a better cordless screwdriver, this same handy size and
with a more powerful battery, I'd buy it in a New York minute.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 27, 8:40 am, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 7:58 am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 26, 12:33 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 25, 7:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> > > > > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > > > > Mark
>
> > > > No, not yet. I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> > > > batteries.
>
> > > > I can tell you one thing, though. I am not going to buy any more
> > > > lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> > > > I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> > > > sucked. My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> > > > tool box until I need them. I just rotate around on the job as the
> > > > one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. I keep the
> > > > second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. When the power
> > > > fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> > > > reserve goes in the drill.
>
> > > > But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead or show
> > > > significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. I know the
> > > > advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> > > > they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> > > > I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> > > > should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> > > > need them tomorrow." If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
> > > > back to corded.
>
> > > > My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> > > > a month. My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> > > > charge for half that time.
>
> > > > I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> > > > I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> > > > When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> > > > tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> > > > thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> > > > get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> > > > overnight.
>
> > > > No thanks.
>
> > > > Robert
>
> > > Whooops, hit send by accident on that last one,
> > > Your post is all too familiar to us. That said, we have had a little
> > > better results with Li than you it seems. I only have a couple tools
> > > using them (bosch Idrive and impactor) and they have held charge for a
> > > long time and worked fine. Our primary cordless' however are a bunch
> > > of makita 12v and 14.4v impact drivers running NiMH batteries. My only
> > > complaint with the NiMH is they dont perform well in extreme cold
> > > which hurts in the winter. We also take pretty good care of them as I
> > > have read alot about NiMH not wanting to be deeply drained a lot (swap
> > > at first sign of slowdown), and that they like an overnight charge
> > > periodically. This hasnt been a problem for us so far. We are only
> > > about a year or so back into cordless as we quit on them all together
> > > for about 10 years or so. I got real sick of paying 3-4 hundred
> > > dollars a year for batteries when extension cords are all over every
> > > job and free. When I finally quit on cordless I wondered why I hadnt
> > > done it earlier. The power, no batteries, far outweight the issues of
> > > stringing a cord. With the new compact impacts however the tables have
> > > again turned. I dont know what I would do without the half dozen
> > > impacts laying around the job. They are just astounding the work they
> > > will do and how long they run.
>
> > > Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
> > > batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
> > > rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
> > > site. Will let you know if I do.
>
> > My experience with the Makita NiMH differs somewhat. I get the same
> > experience, in essence, that I get with AA NiMH batteries for flash
> > units and cameras: they work well for a week, whether heavy or
> > intermittent; if they are left sitting for two weeks, the batteries
> > are drained enough to need recharging (without ANY use). The self-
> > discharge features is a royal PITA when you're handling a couple dozen
> > batteries. I'm about to toss the drill the batteries go in, and put
> > the charger up on eBay. Actually, I guess, the drill is OK, but I
> > don't have any NiCads and see no reason to buy them when I have two
> > DeWalt and one Bosch drill, plus a whole bunch of Ryobi LiOn gear.
>
> > Another factor: almost every NiMH battery I've used was shot at
> > between two and three years of age, would no longer hold a charge
> > longer than a couple hours, if that long.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Charlie,
> I cant say much about the NiMH and the 2-3 year thing as these drills
> are right at that age. The oldest are probably three and the youngest
> are 1.5-2. Could be approaching immenent colapse!! Heh. I have had one
> battery tank so far but I attributed it (perhaps wrongly) to the guys
> not maintaining them well. I also dont have the problem of them
> draining when sitting that I can recall but we also use these drills
> daily so other than on rare occassion they dont sit for long periods
> and are regularly charged. I could imagine one or two batteries
> sitting for a couple days at the most and that would be rare.
>
> My conclusion from all of this is that the whole thing relies greatly
> on how they are used, maintained, and environment. The same battery
> technology that sucks for one may work well for another. Its not very
> comforting to think that so much research would be needed to buy a
> consumer market product but with heavy users thats always the norm.
> What kills me, is that one of my longest living cordless' was a PC
> 19.2 Network kit with a 1/2" drill and a saw. That thing ran with the
> factory batteries for probably 4-5 years. Then they started to drop
> off. With batteries at 100.00 pop you could just about buy a new
> drill/charger/2 battery kit for the cost of the two new batteries.
> Then you are stuck with three tools and only two batteries. A whole
> slew of contemplation and decision making follow. Thats what opted me
> to get out of the cordless in the first place. The more I think of it
> I may just start leaning back that way hehe.
>
> If you opt to sell your Makita NiMH let me know what models and what
> you have and I may save you the ebay post.
>
> Mark

Yes. For a pro, the NiMH may be OK, except for the shorter
lifespan...and that may not hold true with every battery.

You probably wouldn't want the drill I have: it's the 12 volt, a bit
light for contracting, but, IMO, nearly ideal for a woodworking shop.
Hell, I did an article on that subject years ago, and I see no reason
to change my opinion, especially with better batteries on the market
now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient. All day, every day, 18 volts and
up--I haven't checked recently, but something in the back of my mind
is clicking off "48 volts" or something close to that for a top end
these days. The woodworking exceptions are for cabinet installers,
with maybe 18 volts needed there to keep going all day on big jobs.

On Feb 26, 11:33 am, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
> batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
> rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
> site. Will let you know if I do.
>
> Mark

Love to hear your results, Mark. As Rico pointed out, battery drives
are a work in progress. There are different types of chemical mixes
for the batteries we get, and sadly we are the guinea pigs for the
industry.

Depending on the type of job I am doing, I will usually bring corded
backup. I don't care if I am down for just an hour, it pisses me
off. I don't need the help tidying up the site while the tools, and
when I think of what a couple of guys cost (crap, I;m cheap compared
to them!) I will take a reliable tool over a slick tool any time.
Over the years (as you can probably tell) I have developed a deep hate
for unreliable or difficult tools.

The two best cordless drills I ever had on site: My old DeWalt 18v
cordless. It lasted three years of doing everything from boring
several doors a day, installing cabinets, to hanging gutter. And when
the second battery was about to die, the transmission broke. I got
every nickel and many more out of that drill.

The other one is a Sears "professional series" 14v drill. I bought it
on ebay for $53 to the door. I thought it would be a good drill to
send out on the job with the Indians. It won't die, performs all the
same duties that the old 18v DeWalt did, and still works great after 3
1/2 years of solid use.

The guys at the big tool warranty service center (not Sears) where I
buy parts told me that the difference between the professional series
from Sears is they put a Johnson motor in for power (same as the old
DeWalts) instead of the Chinese knockoff, Panasonic batteries, and
metal gears in the transmission.

I don't know that I like it well enough to pay full price for it,
though.

All I want is solid performance. So hard to find these days. I guess
I could get the Festools, Feins, and others on the job, and I might if
I was the only one that used them. But I am not, because from time to
time I feel like I have probably equipped most of the city with
carpentry tools that have walked off the job. No need to equip the
city with the best, they seem to be doing well with my Bosch, DeWalt
and PC tools.

It is a constant balancing act for me to find a good solid performing
tool at a price that I can afford if it gets lost or damaged.

I will look for your post on the batteries.

Robert

[email protected] took a can of maroon spray paint on February 27, 2008
12:10 pm and wrote the following:

>
> I laugh a little when I think of the manufacturers pushing the tools
> they think will sell, without much R&D. Maybe even tools that were
> good in theory, but lousy in execution.
>
> Remember the battery powered PC routers? What a joke. I saw the tool
> at "demo days" or some such promo at WC, and the shiny new PC rep told
> me that PC was moving more and more to battery powered tools, and he
> could see a time in the near future where the "charger would replace
> the extension cord" for power. Yeah, right.
>
Coming soon, the battery powered battery charger.
;-)
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

On Feb 25, 2:06 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> IT seems a no brainer to go new. Although this is not genuine Makita,
> neither is the rebuild.

I would try to find out the maker of the little "C" cell batteries in
the "new" not original batteries would be. (You know your batteries
are just several individual units daisy chained together, right?) I
have opened up batteries that lasted a long time like in an old
DeWalt, and they were Panasonic. They were cycled and used to death
before playing out in three years. They seem to be pretty good.

Opening up lousy batteries on lousy tools, I found that they had names
like "Mr. Cheer" and "Sunrise" and "Powerful".

Before this guy got big, he gave me a great education on batteries and
how they are assembled, and how blessed we are to not know what crap
might be under the plastic.

http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/

I have found him to have the best price and the best product. Note -
you only ship one way, so you can put it in a priority mail flat rate
box and ship it up there cheap.

As always, just my 0.02.

If uncomfortable to with a rebuild, get a knockoff. If the folks have
a good reputation, buy it with your American Express so you will have
someone on your side if it fails. Also, you could check with AE to
see if they will double the manufacturer's warranty. Since it is new
(even though not OEM), they might.

Robert

On Feb 25, 4:56=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:06 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > IT seems a no brainer to go new. =A0Although this is not genuine Makita,=

> > neither is the rebuild.
>
> I would try to find out the maker of the little "C" cell batteries =A0in
> the "new" not original batteries would be. =A0(You know your batteries
> are just several individual units daisy chained together, right?) =A0I
> have opened up batteries that lasted a long time like in an old
> DeWalt, and they were Panasonic. =A0They were cycled and used to death
> before playing out in three years. =A0They seem to be pretty good.
>
> Opening up lousy batteries on lousy tools, I found that they had names
> like "Mr. Cheer" and "Sunrise" and "Powerful".
>
> Before this guy got big, he gave me a great education on batteries and
> how they are assembled, and how blessed we are to not know what crap
> might be under the plastic.
>
> =A0http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/
>
> I have found him to have the best price and the best product. =A0Note -
> you only ship one way, so you can put it in a priority mail flat rate
> box and ship it up there cheap.
>
> As always, just my 0.02.
>
> If uncomfortable to with a rebuild, get a knockoff. =A0If the folks have
> a good reputation, buy it with your American Express so you will have
> someone on your side if it fails. =A0Also, you could check with AE to
> see if they will double the manufacturer's warranty. =A0Since it is new
> (even though not OEM), they might.
>
> Robert

Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
if more han 2x price is worth it?

Mark

Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 2:06pm (EST-1) [email protected] (Leon)
doth sayeth:
<snip> Any thoughts or suggestions?

My thought is, all this merely reinforces my decision to stick with
corded drills.

Both of my sons own, and use, at their jobs, battery tools.
Because they often work at job sites with no power available, thus
require them. At home, I don't think either uses battery tools, just
corded tools.



JOAT
10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I do not have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:259374c8-b772-49c8-8306-444dbf605b3f@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
>> if more han 2x price is worth it?
>>
>> Mark
>
> No, not yet. I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> batteries.

I saw a 4.0 amp battery rebuild being offered.

Damn Leon... waited less than two hours for a reply before pulling the
trigger?

Needin' that battery for anything else?

;^)

Robert

On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:

> Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> Mark

No, not yet. I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
batteries.

I can tell you one thing, though. I am not going to buy any more
lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.

I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
sucked. My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
tool box until I need them. I just rotate around on the job as the
one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. I keep the
second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. When the power
fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
reserve goes in the drill.

But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead or show
significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. I know the
advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
they keep their power in use longer, etc.

I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
need them tomorrow." If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
back to corded.

My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
a month. My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
charge for half that time.

I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.

When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
overnight.

No thanks.

Robert

"Lee Michaels" wrote

> I used to be an electronic technician and worked with many techies, both
> electronic and engineering. Almost all of them had a small, rechargable
> screwdriver like the one you mentioned. It was just the thing for getting
> into the guts of a metal box. And they would be used to reassemble the box
> after the repair was made. It really speeded up the process.

AAMOF, down through the years I've got up a specific toolbox for almost
every job/interest, and this particular tool was indeed purchased for my
"computer toolbox" back in the days when I built and maintained all the
servers/workstations in our little internet company.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 26, 2:02=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I could get the Festools, Feins, and others on the job, and I might if
> I was the only one that used them. =A0

Popular subject around here lately, and I too have contemplated the
festool cordless. I dont have a lot of trouble with tools disapearing
as I keep a pretty close eye on stuff and our guys are very honest.
That said, they dont treat tools like I do. I have a real hard time
with them running the NiMH down to dead and actually trying to get the
last turn or two by holding the trigger and cranking the drill like a
screwdriver. I cant tell you the rants I have had over that. It just
boils down to laziness. The second I open the cordless box I plug in
all the chargers and get the low batteries in there. That never
happens unless I do it, hehe. For that reason if I were to buy a
festool it would be mine and mine only.

If festool came out with an impact I would probably cave immediately,
Mark

On Feb 27, 1:37 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver" that I
> always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting slides on the
> sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those snap-in undermount
> drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in a kitchen in new
> construction just this morning.
>

And I thought >> I << had an Oprah moment when I admitted I had a
Craftsman tool I liked. !!

Black and Decker? You're a bold man to air that around here, that's
no doubt! ;^)

I'll go one more on you.

I have a HF Central Machinery cordless screwdriver that cost me all of
$6 on one of their blowout sales. It works like a champ, and since it
doesn't develop 350 lbs of torque, it is perfect for installing pulls,
adjusting and installing hardware, etc.

Also great for electric plug and switch trim plates, and just about
any kind of predrilled hole/small screw driving. Its drive base is a
1/4" standard, so you can drill little holes if you have the bits with
the drive shanks handy.

I don't know how many screws it will actually drive as I have never
had it run down when using it. It takes something like 6-8 hours to
charge, so a little planning is needed when you are going to use it.
I am sure I made up my investment on the first job.

Robert

On Feb 27, 12:10 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 27, 10:16 am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>
> But as batteries and drill motors have gotten better in their cycle
> times, and they deliver more power for longer times, lighter drills
> are more and more what I see on the job. I don't know anyone that is
> pleased to haul around a 19.2 - 24 volt drill anymore. Even in light
> commercial, you just don't need that much power all day long, and it
> is no fun to wag all that weight around. For all day use, I like my
> 14.4s, and the all have a lot of torque these days.

Yes. No sensible person wants more hanging on his hand or belt than
necessary; if a 14.4 will do the job, an 18 or 24 doesn't make sense.
>

>
> Even when I do cabinet installs, the 14.4 works fine for me, and is
> less bulky if I need to screw jambs together. I have not replaced the
> old 18v drill, and probably won't.
>
> A big push is on to get contractors up to 36 volt tools. Why, I don't
> know. If I need to have a tool run all day, I wouldn't consider a 36
> volt tool. They are massive, huge tools. If I needed that much power
> for an extended period I would be back at corded. I can see those
> tools being considered special need tools, but not anything else. The
> case that the 36v drill/saw combo fits in looks like a steamer trunk
> to me.
>

Money. The tools cost more; replacement batteries cost way more than I
paid for my first car.

>
> Remember the battery powered PC routers? What a joke. I saw the tool
> at "demo days" or some such promo at WC, and the shiny new PC rep told
> me that PC was moving more and more to battery powered tools, and he
> could see a time in the near future where the "charger would replace
> the extension cord" for power. Yeah, right.
>
> Do they even make that battery powered router anymore?
>
I don't think so. I thought it was funny a few months ago when one of
the woodworking magazines did a report on cordless tools, and the
writer said the only thing missing was a battery-powered router. I
took one look at that 19.2 and never even asked for one to try out. It
looked as if it had to be horribly top heavy, not a great condition
for a router.

On Feb 27, 7:58=A0am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 26, 12:33 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 7:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:=

>
> > > > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering=

> > > > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > > > Mark
>
> > > No, not yet. =A0I might... but they didn't have those last time I need=
ed
> > > batteries.
>
> > > I can tell you one thing, though. =A0I am not going to buy any more
> > > lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> > > I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> > > sucked. =A0My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> > > tool box until I need them. =A0I just rotate around on the job as the
> > > one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. =A0I keep the
> > > second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. =A0When the power
> > > fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> > > reserve goes in the drill.
>
> > > But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead =A0or show=

> > > significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. =A0I know the=

> > > advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> > > they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> > > I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> > > should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> > > need them tomorrow." =A0If I was going to fool with that crap I would =
go
> > > back to corded.
>
> > > My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> > > a month. =A0My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> > > charge for half that time.
>
> > > I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> > > I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> > > When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> > > tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> > > thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> > > get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> > > overnight.
>
> > > No thanks.
>
> > > Robert
>
> > Whooops, hit send by accident on that last one,
> > Your post is all too familiar to us. That said, we have had a little
> > better results with Li than you it seems. I only have a couple tools
> > using them (bosch Idrive and impactor) and they have held charge for a
> > long time and worked fine. Our primary cordless' however are a bunch
> > of makita 12v and 14.4v impact drivers running NiMH batteries. My only
> > complaint with the NiMH is they dont perform well in extreme cold
> > which hurts in the winter. We also take pretty good care of them as I
> > have read alot about NiMH not wanting to be deeply drained a lot (swap
> > at first sign of slowdown), and that they like an overnight charge
> > periodically. This hasnt been a problem for us so far. We are only
> > about a year or so back into cordless as we quit on them all together
> > for about 10 years or so. I got real sick of paying 3-4 hundred
> > dollars a year for batteries when extension cords are all over every
> > job and free. When I finally quit on cordless I wondered why I hadnt
> > done it earlier. The power, no batteries, far outweight the issues of
> > stringing a cord. With the new compact impacts however the tables have
> > again turned. I dont know what I would do without the half dozen
> > impacts laying around the job. They are just astounding the work they
> > will do and how long they run.
>
> > Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
> > batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
> > rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
> > site. Will let you know if I do.
>
> My experience with the Makita NiMH differs somewhat. I get the same
> experience, in essence, that I get with AA NiMH batteries for flash
> units and cameras: they work well for a week, whether heavy or
> intermittent; if they are left sitting for two weeks, the batteries
> are drained enough to need recharging (without ANY use). The self-
> discharge features is a royal PITA when you're handling a couple dozen
> batteries. I'm about to toss the drill the batteries go in, and put
> the charger up on eBay. Actually, I guess, the drill is OK, but I
> don't have any NiCads and see no reason to buy them when I have two
> DeWalt and one Bosch drill, plus a whole bunch of Ryobi LiOn gear.
>
> Another factor: almost every NiMH battery I've used was shot at
> between two and three years of age, would no longer hold a charge
> longer than a couple hours, if that long.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Charlie,
I cant say much about the NiMH and the 2-3 year thing as these drills
are right at that age. The oldest are probably three and the youngest
are 1.5-2. Could be approaching immenent colapse!! Heh. I have had one
battery tank so far but I attributed it (perhaps wrongly) to the guys
not maintaining them well. I also dont have the problem of them
draining when sitting that I can recall but we also use these drills
daily so other than on rare occassion they dont sit for long periods
and are regularly charged. I could imagine one or two batteries
sitting for a couple days at the most and that would be rare.

My conclusion from all of this is that the whole thing relies greatly
on how they are used, maintained, and environment. The same battery
technology that sucks for one may work well for another. Its not very
comforting to think that so much research would be needed to buy a
consumer market product but with heavy users thats always the norm.
What kills me, is that one of my longest living cordless' was a PC
19.2 Network kit with a 1/2" drill and a saw. That thing ran with the
factory batteries for probably 4-5 years. Then they started to drop
off. With batteries at 100.00 pop you could just about buy a new
drill/charger/2 battery kit for the cost of the two new batteries.
Then you are stuck with three tools and only two batteries. A whole
slew of contemplation and decision making follow. Thats what opted me
to get out of the cordless in the first place. The more I think of it
I may just start leaning back that way hehe.

If you opt to sell your Makita NiMH let me know what models and what
you have and I may save you the ebay post.

Mark

On Feb 27, 3:34=A0pm, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> >=A0If I needed that much power
> > for an extended period I would be back at corded. =A0I can see those
> > tools being considered special need tools, but not anything else. =A0The=

> > case that the 36v drill/saw combo fits in looks like a steamer trunk
> > to me.
>
> Money. The tools cost more; replacement batteries cost way more than I
> paid for my first car.

Personally I dont think the drive for the bigger tools is coming from
mfrs. wanting to increase their gross sales dollars. Just because a
tool costs more doesnt mean the mfr makes more GP which is their
ultimate goal. Of course an item could be sold at a much lower GP than
desired but volume would offset the lower GP I dont think that is the
case for high voltage tools.

I think the high voltage cordless tools are driven by the tim the
toolman mindset though it may be fading. This is the same mindset that
drives the SUV, Hummer, 4 Dr, 4WD, Dually, Diesel, craze. Its just
what you see in all the ad's. A big strapping stud, with leather work
gloves, with a 2 9/16" selffeed chucked up in a cordless no less,
punching through a couple 2x's. Big, leafy chips flying in slow
motion, a grimmacing face barely able to control the overwhelming
power of the tool. One of the most common ad's I see is a Dewalt
cordless boring a hole that no tradesman would ever consistantly drill
with a cordless. It would be like a plumber punching 20 studs for a 2"
line with a cordless. Thats a job where you get out the Holehawg and
make some money, not grab the cordless.

My feeling is it consumer driven thought it may be a little late,

Mark

One of my cordless drills is a 3 year old Bosch and one battery has kakked. I
went to a local rebuilder here that I know (Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada) and
he said that the going rate in the industry for a rebuild is $4.50 per cell.
So, a 12v with 10 cells would run $45.00 and the replacement cells would have
a greater mah rating. Since the CDN dollar is about at par with the US dollar
I'd guess the rate should be similar in the US (add shipping costs if the
rebuilder's not local).

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/woodworking/200802/1

On Feb 27, 3:36=A0pm, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 2:37 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Charlie Self" wrote
>
> > > now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
> > > woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient.
>
> > LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver" that I
> > always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting slides on=
the
> > sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those snap-in undermount
> > drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in a kitchen in new
> > construction just this morning.
>
> > This little "Harry Homeowner" grade tool will drive a couple hundred 7/1=
6"
> > screws into maple drawer sides on one "versapack" charge, weighs less th=
an
> > 10 oz, and when the power runs out on the last drawer, can be used as a
> > screwdriver in a pinch ... AAMOF, that is a handy feature because I can
> > drive a screw most of the way home on the battery, then torque it down j=
ust
> > right, by hand, without removing the bit from the screw ... gotta love i=
t
> > for that.
>
> > Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! =A0;)
>
> > But, if I could find a better cordless screwdriver, this same handy size=
and
> > with a more powerful battery, I'd buy it in a New York minute.
>
> I think Bosch's little L-O 10 volt is probably better, but someone
> swiped mine before I could find out.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have the Idrive and carry it on my belt most all the time when I am
doing interior work. It is very handy as I am always trying to reduce
the impact of repetetive actions on the body (trying to prolong the
pain/arthritis free portion of life). I do this right down to turning
a screwdriver. When we are trimming out electric we always use offset
screwdrivers for the speed and redced impact on your wrists. This is
why I carry the I drive though not for electric. I most always carry a
phillips in my belt and while the Idrive is about a zillion times
heavier than a screwdriver, for the amount of times I use it the bit
of extra weight is offset by the wrist fatigue it saves.

My $0.02 on the Idrive I would have to say #1 it is heavy. I ordered
it from our lumberyard and when it landed I was surprised how heavy it
was. I carry it in a Quikdrive screw pouch. As a side note, this pouch
came with a quickdrive screwgun we have and the pouch is absolutely
awesome. I carry wonderbars, catspaws, the I drive, hammer tackers,
and all sorts of long tools you dont want hanging out of a loop (or
wont hang). Its a great little pouch. Anyway, other than the weight I
like the Idrive a lot. The head is very compact, I will say you have
to have a very "positive" bit especially for phillips because without
exerting a lot of force inline with the screw (typical of offset
screwdrivers) they will jump and cam out a lot. I dont use the clutch
too often as I have never found a clutch, mechanical or electronic,
that would accommodate real world materials. They always over/under
drive. I mostly leave the Idrive on the last two or drill settings. I
cant honestly say that the Idrive would drive 100's of 7/16 screws
into hardwood though I have never tried. We just finished a hard maple
kitchen and installing doors and slides the Idrive got a workout with
hinge/slide screws using truss head cutting tip screws. I have become
an impact junkie so perhaps I am spoiled by their speed and power.

What I will say, is the Bosch 10v Impactor is an impressive tool.
Truley tiny, power, you can stuff it in your jeans front pocket if
needed. They both have their place, and both are pricey (150 or less
for the I drive and close to 200 for the impactor) but I think they
are a snapshot of the future. Power in a very small package.

Mark

On Feb 27, 12:10=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> And as another comment, (Mark - your thoughts?) I don't like the
> battery powered saws except for a few things. =A0They will make a
> reasonable amount of cuts and are for light work only. =A0I had an 18v
> recip saw, and it was a total waste of time. =A0It didn't make an hour
> in a kitchen demo cutting through beams and headers. =A0It was returned.
We have never owned a cordless sawzall. The only ones I have used have
been others that were handy to grab and the second I pull the trigger
I usually put them down. I could see where they may be handy but those
times are so few and far between that packing another tool/case around
isnt worth it to us. Every one I have ever run feels like it could
shatter to a million pieces in your hands at any time.

> As for the circular saws, they can be pretty handy, and I actually
> like them for light duty. =A0My problem with them is that they are not
> accurate cutters, most being sleeved bearings to cut down on the
> friction to save battery life. =A0To me they feel like a $39 Skil saw
> when you use them, and the wandering cuts they make after a using them
> for a few months makes it worse.
The only one I have ever used was the PC 19.2 I mentioned. It was
pretty impressive when new. The specs said it would cross cut
something like 200 2x4's on a single charge and it sure seemed like it
would when it was new. It doesnt operate like that any more even with
new batteries. Its real handy for cutting off lookouts on a roof or
trimming rafter tails. Light, and so on. If they werent so damn
expensive I would buy a corded PC trim saw but man those are high.

> Remember the battery powered PC routers? =A0What a joke. =A0I saw the tool=


They are still available as far as I know. I see those guys on the
router workshop using them every weekend. Nothing I would have a need
for and I cant say I would use one that often when I am in the shop.

Mark

On Feb 26, 12:33 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 7:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> > > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > > Mark
>
> > No, not yet. I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> > batteries.
>
> > I can tell you one thing, though. I am not going to buy any more
> > lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> > I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> > sucked. My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> > tool box until I need them. I just rotate around on the job as the
> > one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. I keep the
> > second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. When the power
> > fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> > reserve goes in the drill.
>
> > But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead or show
> > significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. I know the
> > advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> > they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> > I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> > should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> > need them tomorrow." If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
> > back to corded.
>
> > My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> > a month. My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> > charge for half that time.
>
> > I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> > I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> > When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> > tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> > thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> > get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> > overnight.
>
> > No thanks.
>
> > Robert
>
> Whooops, hit send by accident on that last one,
> Your post is all too familiar to us. That said, we have had a little
> better results with Li than you it seems. I only have a couple tools
> using them (bosch Idrive and impactor) and they have held charge for a
> long time and worked fine. Our primary cordless' however are a bunch
> of makita 12v and 14.4v impact drivers running NiMH batteries. My only
> complaint with the NiMH is they dont perform well in extreme cold
> which hurts in the winter. We also take pretty good care of them as I
> have read alot about NiMH not wanting to be deeply drained a lot (swap
> at first sign of slowdown), and that they like an overnight charge
> periodically. This hasnt been a problem for us so far. We are only
> about a year or so back into cordless as we quit on them all together
> for about 10 years or so. I got real sick of paying 3-4 hundred
> dollars a year for batteries when extension cords are all over every
> job and free. When I finally quit on cordless I wondered why I hadnt
> done it earlier. The power, no batteries, far outweight the issues of
> stringing a cord. With the new compact impacts however the tables have
> again turned. I dont know what I would do without the half dozen
> impacts laying around the job. They are just astounding the work they
> will do and how long they run.
>
> Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
> batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
> rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
> site. Will let you know if I do.

My experience with the Makita NiMH differs somewhat. I get the same
experience, in essence, that I get with AA NiMH batteries for flash
units and cameras: they work well for a week, whether heavy or
intermittent; if they are left sitting for two weeks, the batteries
are drained enough to need recharging (without ANY use). The self-
discharge features is a royal PITA when you're handling a couple dozen
batteries. I'm about to toss the drill the batteries go in, and put
the charger up on eBay. Actually, I guess, the drill is OK, but I
don't have any NiCads and see no reason to buy them when I have two
DeWalt and one Bosch drill, plus a whole bunch of Ryobi LiOn gear.

Another factor: almost every NiMH battery I've used was shot at
between two and three years of age, would no longer hold a charge
longer than a couple hours, if that long.

"Swingman" wrote
>
> "Charlie Self" wrote
>
>> now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
>> woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient.
>
> LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver" that I
> always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting slides on
> the
> sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those snap-in undermount
> drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in a kitchen in new
> construction just this morning.
>
> This little "Harry Homeowner" grade tool will drive a couple hundred 7/16"
> screws into maple drawer sides on one "versapack" charge, weighs less than
> 10 oz, and when the power runs out on the last drawer, can be used as a
> screwdriver in a pinch ... AAMOF, that is a handy feature because I can
> drive a screw most of the way home on the battery, then torque it down
> just
> right, by hand, without removing the bit from the screw ... gotta love it
> for that.
>
> Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! ;)
>
> But, if I could find a better cordless screwdriver, this same handy size
> and
> with a more powerful battery, I'd buy it in a New York minute.
>

I used to be an electronic technician and worked with many techies, both
electronic and engineering. Almost all of them had a small, rechargable
screwdriver like the one you mentioned. It was just the thing for getting
into the guts of a metal box. And they would be used to reassemble the box
after the repair was made. It really speeded up the process.

I also used them when taking equipment in and out of 19" racks. I hear in
the old days, they used to use the venerable yankee screwdriver for these
tasks. You don't really want anything bigger than the absolute minimum size
for these tasks.

Another rechargable goodie in the modern techies toolbox is the portable
soldering iron.

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:be3b05cf-df80-42c6-be3a-fb645955db5d@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

> I think Bosch's little L-O 10 volt is probably better, but someone
> swiped mine before I could find out.

I was just about to ask if anyone had any experience(s) with that very
driver. I am tired of lugging the Makita 18v NiMH though it must be four
years old now and still on the same two batteries. And, as someone already
noted, there are frequent cabinet installation situations where its size is
a limiting factor.
-
Dave in Houston

"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 2:06pm (EST-1) [email protected] (Leon)
> doth sayeth:
> <snip> Any thoughts or suggestions?
>
> My thought is, all this merely reinforces my decision to stick with
> corded drills.
>
> Both of my sons own, and use, at their jobs, battery tools.
> Because they often work at job sites with no power available, thus
> require them. At home, I don't think either uses battery tools, just
> corded tools.
>

Well corded is a must have and I have a couple but the clutch on the
cordless drills is a nice feature that would probably cut deeply into
battery drill sales, so we will probably never see one.

On Feb 25, 7:15=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > Mark
>
> No, not yet. =A0I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> batteries.
>
> I can tell you one thing, though. =A0I am not going to buy any more
> lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> sucked. =A0My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> tool box until I need them. =A0I just rotate around on the job as the
> one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. =A0I keep the
> second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. =A0When the power
> fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> reserve goes in the drill.
>
> But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead =A0or show
> significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. =A0I know the
> advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> need them tomorrow." =A0If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
> back to corded.
>
> My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> a month. =A0My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> charge for half that time.
>
> I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> overnight.
>
> No thanks.
>
> Robert

Whooops, hit send by accident on that last one,
Your post is all too familiar to us. That said, we have had a little
better results with Li than you it seems. I only have a couple tools
using them (bosch Idrive and impactor) and they have held charge for a
long time and worked fine. Our primary cordless' however are a bunch
of makita 12v and 14.4v impact drivers running NiMH batteries. My only
complaint with the NiMH is they dont perform well in extreme cold
which hurts in the winter. We also take pretty good care of them as I
have read alot about NiMH not wanting to be deeply drained a lot (swap
at first sign of slowdown), and that they like an overnight charge
periodically. This hasnt been a problem for us so far. We are only
about a year or so back into cordless as we quit on them all together
for about 10 years or so. I got real sick of paying 3-4 hundred
dollars a year for batteries when extension cords are all over every
job and free. When I finally quit on cordless I wondered why I hadnt
done it earlier. The power, no batteries, far outweight the issues of
stringing a cord. With the new compact impacts however the tables have
again turned. I dont know what I would do without the half dozen
impacts laying around the job. They are just astounding the work they
will do and how long they run.

Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
site. Will let you know if I do.

Mark

On Feb 27, 2:37 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Charlie Self" wrote
>
> > now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
> > woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient.
>
> LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver" that I
> always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting slides on the
> sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those snap-in undermount
> drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in a kitchen in new
> construction just this morning.
>
> This little "Harry Homeowner" grade tool will drive a couple hundred 7/16"
> screws into maple drawer sides on one "versapack" charge, weighs less than
> 10 oz, and when the power runs out on the last drawer, can be used as a
> screwdriver in a pinch ... AAMOF, that is a handy feature because I can
> drive a screw most of the way home on the battery, then torque it down just
> right, by hand, without removing the bit from the screw ... gotta love it
> for that.
>
> Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! ;)
>
> But, if I could find a better cordless screwdriver, this same handy size and
> with a more powerful battery, I'd buy it in a New York minute.
>

I think Bosch's little L-O 10 volt is probably better, but someone
swiped mine before I could find out.

On Feb 25, 7:15=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > Mark
>
> No, not yet. =A0I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> batteries.
>
> I can tell you one thing, though. =A0I am not going to buy any more
> lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> sucked. =A0My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> tool box until I need them. =A0I just rotate around on the job as the
> one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. =A0I keep the
> second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. =A0When the power
> fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> reserve goes in the drill.
>
> But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead =A0or show
> significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. =A0I know the
> advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> need them tomorrow." =A0If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
> back to corded.
>
> My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> a month. =A0My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> charge for half that time.
>
> I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> overnight.
>
> No thanks.
>
> Robert

Robert,

On Feb 27, 10:16 am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yes. For a pro, the NiMH may be OK, except for the shorter
> lifespan...and that may not hold true with every battery.

One thing that this thread caused me to do was to read up on some of
the battery technologies. More than the comment I posted above about
them being a "work in progress", they are very much a rapidly changing
technology. Apparently, we are stuck with the current offerings only
because of price constraints.

>
> You probably wouldn't want the drill I have: it's the 12 volt, a bit
> light for contracting, but, IMO, nearly ideal for a woodworking shop.
> Hell, I did an article on that subject years ago, and I see no reason
> to change my opinion, especially with better batteries on the market
> now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
> woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient.

I think your thoughts are reflected more on the job site than you
think, Charlie. There has been a shift in the way cordless drills are
looked at on job. Most of us used to buy the cordless drills based on
battery size because the larger battery sized drills were the only
ones that could deliver the torque needed to drive longer screws.

But as batteries and drill motors have gotten better in their cycle
times, and they deliver more power for longer times, lighter drills
are more and more what I see on the job. I don't know anyone that is
pleased to haul around a 19.2 - 24 volt drill anymore. Even in light
commercial, you just don't need that much power all day long, and it
is no fun to wag all that weight around. For all day use, I like my
14.4s, and the all have a lot of torque these days.

It wasn't that many years ago (12-15?) that most your 14.4 drills
would bore both 2 1/8 lock holes in a door. When I hung a door that
had to be bored and mortised, I always took my corded drill with me as
I knew I wouldn't finish with the cordless unless I had another
battery, and I didn't want to burn the battery by draining it all at
once by drilling a couple of large holes.

Got the DeWalt 18v, and problems were over. It waltzed through the
holes, including the plunger and strike holes with no sign of fading.
Imagine my surprise when the next drill I bought, a 14.4 did the same
thing and delivered the same torque.

> up--I haven't checked recently, but something in the back of my mind
> is clicking off "48 volts" or something close to that for a top end
> these days. The woodworking exceptions are for cabinet installers,
> with maybe 18 volts needed there to keep going all day on big jobs.

Even when I do cabinet installs, the 14.4 works fine for me, and is
less bulky if I need to screw jambs together. I have not replaced the
old 18v drill, and probably won't.

A big push is on to get contractors up to 36 volt tools. Why, I don't
know. If I need to have a tool run all day, I wouldn't consider a 36
volt tool. They are massive, huge tools. If I needed that much power
for an extended period I would be back at corded. I can see those
tools being considered special need tools, but not anything else. The
case that the 36v drill/saw combo fits in looks like a steamer trunk
to me.

And as another comment, (Mark - your thoughts?) I don't like the
battery powered saws except for a few things. They will make a
reasonable amount of cuts and are for light work only. I had an 18v
recip saw, and it was a total waste of time. It didn't make an hour
in a kitchen demo cutting through beams and headers. It was returned.

As for the circular saws, they can be pretty handy, and I actually
like them for light duty. My problem with them is that they are not
accurate cutters, most being sleeved bearings to cut down on the
friction to save battery life. To me they feel like a $39 Skil saw
when you use them, and the wandering cuts they make after a using them
for a few months makes it worse.

They also have a tendency for premature death if you are cutting
material that has a lot of glue, knots, or is old and dry. Worse,
they lose their blade speed as they drain, making chip out a real
problem. They still have a place, though.

I laugh a little when I think of the manufacturers pushing the tools
they think will sell, without much R&D. Maybe even tools that were
good in theory, but lousy in execution.

Remember the battery powered PC routers? What a joke. I saw the tool
at "demo days" or some such promo at WC, and the shiny new PC rep told
me that PC was moving more and more to battery powered tools, and he
could see a time in the near future where the "charger would replace
the extension cord" for power. Yeah, right.

Do they even make that battery powered router anymore?

Robert

On Feb 25, 7:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wondering
> > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > Mark
>
> No, not yet. I might... but they didn't have those last time I needed
> batteries.
>
> I can tell you one thing, though. I am not going to buy any more
> lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they both
> sucked. My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the truck
> tool box until I need them. I just rotate around on the job as the
> one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. I keep the
> second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. When the power
> fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> reserve goes in the drill.
>
> But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead or show
> significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. I know the
> advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any time,
> they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you
> should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you
> need them tomorrow." If I was going to fool with that crap I would go
> back to corded.
>
> My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck for
> a month. My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a good
> charge for half that time.
>
> I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good as
> I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over the
> tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the last
> thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yard,
> get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> overnight.

That's pretty weird. Li-ion batteries are known for holding their
charges for long periods - the shelf life is measured in years. NiCad
and NiMH both lose about 1 or 2 percent of their charge per day.
http://www.energizer.com/learning-center/Pages/battery-comparison.aspx

I recently pickes up some Makita Li-ion tools and do notice that they
drain more quickly in use, but they don't drain at all just sitting
there.

Battery technology has been a bottleneck for a long time, but there
does seem to be some interesting developments on the horizon:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html

R

On Feb 27, 2:37=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! =A0;)
>
I have a little 1/4" collet router by B&D that I always reach for.
Rack & pinion elevation adjustment, all cast construction, kicks like
a little mule on start-up, screams like a demon, and I just love it.

I have discovered that almost every major manufacturer of tools has at
least one tool in their arsenal that stands out. (Of course the really
SMART manufacturers no longer make them...</cynicism> )

On Feb 27, 11:16=A0am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 8:40 am, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 27, 7:58 am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 26, 12:33 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 25, 7:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 25, 5:59 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
>
> > > > > > Have you done one of their 3300 rebuilds? Sounds juicy but wonde=
ring
> > > > > > if more han 2x price is worth it?
>
> > > > > > Mark
>
> > > > > No, not yet. =A0I might... but they didn't have those last time I =
needed
> > > > > batteries.
>
> > > > > I can tell you one thing, though. =A0I am not going to buy any mor=
e
> > > > > lithium ion batteried tools until they quit making NiCad.
>
> > > > > I have had two different tools using the LI batteries and they bot=
h
> > > > > sucked. =A0My NiCads will stay charged for quite a while in the tr=
uck
> > > > > tool box until I need them. =A0I just rotate around on the job as =
the
> > > > > one in the drill always has a little juice left in it. =A0I keep t=
he
> > > > > second battery (or alternate) charged and ready. =A0When the power=

> > > > > fades, the battery in the tool goes in the charger and the one in
> > > > > reserve goes in the drill.
>
> > > > > But with my Lithium Ion stuff, both drill batteries go dead =A0or =
show
> > > > > significant drain in just a few days, even when sitting. =A0I know=
the
> > > > > advantage of the LI battery is that you can top them off at any ti=
me,
> > > > > they keep their power in use longer, etc.
>
> > > > > I don't come home after a long day and think to myself, "hey - you=

> > > > > should go dig out the drill batteries and top them off in case you=

> > > > > need them tomorrow." =A0If I was going to fool with that crap I wo=
uld go
> > > > > back to corded.
>
> > > > > My old 18v DeWalt drill batteries would stay charged in the truck =
for
> > > > > a month. =A0My super Makita LI batteries on my 14v won't hold a go=
od
> > > > > charge for half that time.
>
> > > > > I guess if I was working in a shop the Makitas setup would be good=
as
> > > > > I would plunk the batteries down on the charger every night.
>
> > > > > When I get in home late, tired, hungry, with material tied over th=
e
> > > > > tool box onto the headache rack so I can't get the lid up, the las=
t
> > > > > thing I want to do is untie material, off load it in the front yar=
d,
> > > > > get the friggin' drill, charger, etc. out and set it up to charge
> > > > > overnight.
>
> > > > > No thanks.
>
> > > > > Robert
>
> > > > Whooops, hit send by accident on that last one,
> > > > Your post is all too familiar to us. That said, we have had a little=

> > > > better results with Li than you it seems. I only have a couple tools=

> > > > using them (bosch Idrive and impactor) and they have held charge for=
a
> > > > long time and worked fine. Our primary cordless' however are a bunch=

> > > > of makita 12v and 14.4v impact drivers running NiMH batteries. My on=
ly
> > > > complaint with the NiMH is they dont perform well in extreme cold
> > > > which hurts in the winter. We also take pretty good care of them as =
I
> > > > have read alot about NiMH not wanting to be deeply drained a lot (sw=
ap
> > > > at first sign of slowdown), and that they like an overnight charge
> > > > periodically. This hasnt been a problem for us so far. We are only
> > > > about a year or so back into cordless as we quit on them all togethe=
r
> > > > for about 10 years or so. I got real sick of paying 3-4 hundred
> > > > dollars a year for batteries when extension cords are all over every=

> > > > job and free. When I finally quit on cordless I wondered why I hadnt=

> > > > done it earlier. The power, no batteries, far outweight the issues o=
f
> > > > stringing a cord. With the new compact impacts however the tables ha=
ve
> > > > again turned. I dont know what I would do without the half dozen
> > > > impacts laying around the job. They are just astounding the work the=
y
> > > > will do and how long they run.
>
> > > > Anyway, I was always thinking of getting some of the 3.0ah NiMH
> > > > batteries from makita for these impacts but now I am thinking about
> > > > rebuilding a couple of the dead ones with the 3300 option on that
> > > > site. Will let you know if I do.
>
> > > My experience with the Makita NiMH differs somewhat. I get the same
> > > experience, in essence, that I get with AA NiMH batteries for flash
> > > units and cameras: they work well for a week, whether heavy or
> > > intermittent; if they are left sitting for two weeks, the batteries
> > > are drained enough to need recharging (without ANY use). The self-
> > > discharge features is a royal PITA when you're handling a couple dozen=

> > > batteries. I'm about to toss the drill the batteries go in, and put
> > > the charger up on eBay. Actually, I guess, the drill is OK, but I
> > > don't have any NiCads and see no reason to buy them when I have two
> > > DeWalt and one Bosch drill, plus a whole bunch of Ryobi LiOn gear.
>
> > > Another factor: almost every NiMH battery I've used was shot at
> > > between two and three years of age, would no longer hold a charge
> > > longer than a couple hours, if that long.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Charlie,
> > I cant say much about the NiMH and the 2-3 year thing as these drills
> > are right at that age. The oldest are probably three and the youngest
> > are 1.5-2. Could be approaching immenent colapse!! Heh. I have had one
> > battery tank so far but I attributed it (perhaps wrongly) to the guys
> > not maintaining them well. I also dont have the problem of them
> > draining when sitting that I can recall but we also use these drills
> > daily so other than on rare occassion they dont sit for long periods
> > and are regularly charged. I could imagine one or two batteries
> > sitting for a couple days at the most and that would be rare.
>
> > My conclusion from all of this is that the whole thing relies greatly
> > on how they are used, maintained, and environment. The same battery
> > technology that sucks for one may work well for another. Its not very
> > comforting to think that so much research would be needed to buy a
> > consumer market product but with heavy users thats always the norm.
> > What kills me, is that one of my longest living cordless' was a PC
> > 19.2 Network kit with a 1/2" drill and a saw. That thing ran with the
> > factory batteries for probably 4-5 years. Then they started to drop
> > off. With batteries at 100.00 =A0pop you could just about buy a new
> > drill/charger/2 battery kit for the cost of the two new batteries.
> > Then you are stuck with three tools and only two batteries. A whole
> > slew of contemplation and decision making follow. Thats what opted me
> > to get out of the cordless in the first place. The more I think of it
> > I may just start leaning back that way hehe.
>
> > If you opt to sell your Makita NiMH let me know what models and what
> > you have and I may save you the ebay post.
>
> > Mark
>
> Yes. For a pro, the NiMH may be OK, except for the shorter
> lifespan...and that may not hold true with every battery.
>
> You probably wouldn't want the drill I have: it's the 12 volt, =A0a bit
> light for contracting, but, IMO, nearly ideal for a woodworking shop.
> Hell, I did an article on that subject years ago, and I see no reason
> to change my opinion, especially with better batteries on the market
> now. For 95.9%, or more, of woodworking, and 100% of hobbby
> woodworking, 12 volts is sufficient. All day, every day, 18 volts and
> up--I haven't checked recently, but something in the back of my mind
> is clicking off "48 volts" or something close to that for a top end
> these days. The woodworking exceptions are for cabinet installers,
> with maybe 18 volts needed there to keep going all day on big jobs.- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

my primary drills are 12v and 14.4v, I agree that unless you are
drilling 1/2" holes in steel or masonry all day or running lags
nonstop with an impact the 18v drills are more of a tim the tool man
thing than most realize. I am more than happy to lug 1/3 the payload
all day and have a tool half the size in trade for an extra battery
change.

most of our cordless use is driving and small holes (1/2" and under)
in wood. Anything other than that and the cord comes out. The 12 and
14v impacts are perfect for us.

Mark

regarding the lithium ion batteries. The cell used in the dewalt lithium
ion is made by a123 company. According to the electric radio control plane
guys, the a123 cell kicks ass. Another way of saying that it takes a high
rate of discharge - can take the high charge too and still have a good # of
cycles before you have to replace them. Now as to self discharge- that I
don't know. They are in such demand that the rc guys will often buy the 36v
dewalt pack and cannibalize them for the cells. Pat

[email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 27, 1:37 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> LOL ... I've got a <gasp> 3.6 volt Black & Decker "PivotDriver"
>> that
>> I always grab for quickie cabinet "hardware" jobs, like mounting
>> slides on the sides of drawers, or under drawer hardware for those
>> snap-in undermount drawer slides ... did just that to 22 drawers in
>> a kitchen in new construction just this morning.
>>
>
> And I thought >> I << had an Oprah moment when I admitted I had a
> Craftsman tool I liked. !!
>
> Black and Decker? You're a bold man to air that around here, that's
> no doubt! ;^)
>
> I'll go one more on you.
>
> I have a HF Central Machinery cordless screwdriver that cost me all
> of
> $6 on one of their blowout sales. It works like a champ, and since
> it
> doesn't develop 350 lbs of torque, it is perfect for installing
> pulls,
> adjusting and installing hardware, etc.
>
> Also great for electric plug and switch trim plates, and just about
> any kind of predrilled hole/small screw driving. Its drive base is
> a
> 1/4" standard, so you can drill little holes if you have the bits
> with
> the drive shanks handy.
>
> I don't know how many screws it will actually drive as I have never
> had it run down when using it. It takes something like 6-8 hours to
> charge, so a little planning is needed when you are going to use it.
> I am sure I made up my investment on the first job.

That's the thing about HF--a lot of their stuff is so cheap that if
you buy and find out that it's crap then you still got a fair price
just for the information that it's crap. And quite a lot of it works
quite well.

I mean you'd pay a good chunk of that six bucks for a magazine with a
review of cordless screwdrivers.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1593c5d3-d567-4504-89d2-0a429f2b8c36@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 25, 2:06 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> IT seems a no brainer to go new. Although this is not genuine Makita,
>> neither is the rebuild.
>
> I would try to find out the maker of the little "C" cell batteries in
> the "new" not original batteries would be. (You know your batteries
> are just several individual units daisy chained together, right?) I
> have opened up batteries that lasted a long time like in an old
> DeWalt, and they were Panasonic. They were cycled and used to death
> before playing out in three years. They seem to be pretty good.

Too Late! ;~) I ordered from abatterypack.com. Thay do have a 30 day
money back guarantee and a 1 year warranty.



>
> Opening up lousy batteries on lousy tools, I found that they had names
> like "Mr. Cheer" and "Sunrise" and "Powerful".

Oh boy.

>
> Before this guy got big, he gave me a great education on batteries and
> how they are assembled, and how blessed we are to not know what crap
> might be under the plastic.
>
> http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/
>
> I have found him to have the best price and the best product. Note -
> you only ship one way, so you can put it in a priority mail flat rate
> box and ship it up there cheap.
>
> As always, just my 0.02.
>
> If uncomfortable to with a rebuild, get a knockoff. If the folks have
> a good reputation, buy it with your American Express so you will have
> someone on your side if it fails. Also, you could check with AE to
> see if they will double the manufacturer's warranty. Since it is new
> (even though not OEM), they might.

Yeah, what I ordered is a knock off. Better warranty and cheaper than any
rebuild that I ran across.
Thanks for the thoughts and link Robert.




> Robert
>

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:23f464d7-8692-428d-b922-9632e3fc1728@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Damn Leon... waited less than two hours for a reply before pulling the
> trigger?
>
> Needin' that battery for anything else?
>
> ;^)
>
> Robert
>

My finger was awful itchy. I had been surfing for 2 days to save $20. I
thought that if I was making a terrible mistake some one would have
hollered. Any way thanks again Robert.
Do I need it now. Heck no. But If I don't get it now the other one that I
marked as questionable would probably poop out after it realized that it was
my only one. ;~)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f28b3ebc-7744-49ac-bb55-d1a6dc00d2a1@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 27, 2:37 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! ;)
>
I have a little 1/4" collet router by B&D that I always reach for.
Rack & pinion elevation adjustment, all cast construction, kicks like
a little mule on start-up, screams like a demon, and I just love it.

I have discovered that almost every major manufacturer of tools has at
least one tool in their arsenal that stands out. (Of course the really
SMART manufacturers no longer make them...</cynicism> )


I probably have the same router. 3/4 hp IIRC. I got it in 1974. IIRC
DeWalt used that design several years back.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Sheeesssh ... never thought I'd be bragging on a B&D product! ;)

So I'm cruising the tool isle at COSCO tonight and LOOKEE THERE! A
genuine Skil Model 2410 10.8 Lithium Ion drill/driver - and ONLY $29.99
which is $40 less that Le Grande Orange:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100487671&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100487671&cm_mmc=1hd.com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D25X-_-100487671

Lemmethinkaboutit-I'lltakeit.
How can you go wrong?
I guess the Bosch will have to wait till I burn this one up - maybe
sooner than I think?

Dave in Houston