TS Circuit -- Part 2

On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
>>> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
>>> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>
>>> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
>>> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
>>> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>>>
>>
>> I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
>> Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
>> once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
>> have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
>> window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
>> the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
>> whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
>> stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
>> water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
>> TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
>> homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
>> could easily exceed 100amp service.
>>
>> Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
>> stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
>> than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
>> inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
>> 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
>> wasted money.
>
> You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
> waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
> never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
> pulled more than 50A at a given time.


Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never
tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.

On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
and lighting.
The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
volt circuit at the same time with no problem.


Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time.
The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30
years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.

For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 7:05:40 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>
> >> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.
> >
> >
> > ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220
> > amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use
> > some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220
> > breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those
> > breakers.
> >
>
> I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.
>
> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
> This can come off the main feed into the house.
> I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.

Maybe some misunderstanding. How about a 60 amp 220 volt breaker in the main panel to feed the sub panel.



>
> But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every
> situation is different.
> The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job,
> similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or
> giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a
> real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has
> to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone
> says.
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:57:29 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/4/17 9:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE-
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good
>>>>>>>> advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and
>>>>>>>> there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to
>>>>>>>> the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add
>>>>>>>> a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the
>>>>>>>> shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose
>>>>>>>> the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new
>>>>>>>> meter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to
>>>>>>>> completing the new kitchen table.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in
>>>>>>> the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run
>>>>>>> extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If
>>>>>>> you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust
>>>>>>> collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way
>>>>>>> back to the garage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your
>>>>>> situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and
>>>>>> run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you
>>>>>> propose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the
>>>>>> meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage
>>>>>> and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are
>>>>>> separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits
>>>>>> (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in
>>>>>> garage and shop are two separate circuit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I
>>>>>> still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I
>>>>>> can add more if needed (but don't see that happening).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>>>>>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one
>>>>> piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over
>>>>> to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two
>>>>> lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than
>>>>> one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to
>>>>> sub-panel).
>>>>
>>>> #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop.
>>>> It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will
>>>> be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he
>>>> could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2
>>>> w/ground.
>>>
>>> That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.
>>
>> The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a
>> PITA to work with.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another
>>>>> $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there,
>>>>> he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
>>>>
>>>> I think you're way low on your estimates.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out
>>> a 200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other
>>> panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of
>>> everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.
>>
>> Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of
>> hours. It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking
>> around with the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's
>> not a simple task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a
>> panel swap.
>>
>
>There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. But you
>know what, I'll tell my electrician he has it all wrong and he should
>call you.

Sorry, I thougt we were talking about replacing the panel with a 200A
service. I agree, a sub shoud only take an hour or two (give or take
a bunch of sheetrock).

400 cycles was invented for Airplanes. Smaller transformers.
28 cycles was invented for ships. It was never implemented. Large
transformers were ok - they were ballast. The 28 cycle was dangerous
to the human body. It entered the body on a body short.

My dad lost the marrow in one of his arms when he was bumped into a 28
hz generator. His arm went out in front to protect his fall and across
two buss bars. Two burn holes and it goes to the center. He was
working on Naval Radar and other Naval power needs.

60 cycle / Hz is skin effect. So it is far safer. Consider 28 with
left arm to right leg - burn a heart out. 60 hz stops the lungs typically.

Martin

On 1/7/2017 10:29 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:YPydndGe9p2PjuzFnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>> Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
>> cables could be smaller.
>
> Sort of. The real reason it was done was because tetra-ethyl
> lead was invented.
>
> (Tetra-ethyl lead allows higher octane gasoline. Higher octane
> gasoline allows higher compression engines. Higher compression
> engines require more power from the starter motor to get them
> started, which requires more current from the battery. During
> the 1950's compression ratios went from ~6:1 to ~9:1, which
> became a problem for both the battery and the cables. Hence
> the switch to 12 volt electrical systems.)
>
> John
>

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:18:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
>>>> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
>>>> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>>
>>>> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
>>>> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
>>>> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
>>> Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
>>> once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
>>> have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
>>> window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
>>> the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
>>> whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
>>> stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
>>> water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
>>> TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
>>> homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
>>> could easily exceed 100amp service.
>>>
>>> Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
>>> stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
>>> than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
>>> inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
>>> 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
>>> wasted money.
>>
>> You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
>> waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
>> never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
>> pulled more than 50A at a given time.
>
>
>Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never
>tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.

I haven't trippen a main on any of my houses. I don't believe I've
heard of anyone who has. I have two 150A panels, each with 40 breaker
position, in an unfinished basement. No problems with power in this
house. ;-)
>
>On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
>that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
>and lighting.
>The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
>volt circuit at the same time with no problem.
>
>
>Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
>volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I would have run a sub. My last house had a 200A main but it was
full, so I added a sub right next to it, moved to circuits from the
house over to the sub, then used those spaces for a breaker to the sub
(right next to the main).

>I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time.
>The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30
>years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.
>
>For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 1:31:52 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:
> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>
> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
>
> Larry

Sounds like a great plan. Lights on a non-power tool circuit, I assume?

Now finish up that table so you'll have a nice place to sit while you
write out those checks. ;-)

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:19:46 PM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> > I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
> > That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
> >
> > Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>
> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
> current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
> shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
> point" is simply a "no-brainer">

Agreed. My shop has a sub panel. Five breakers for 220 lines - 2 saws, air compressor, planer, bandsaw.

A sub panel would facilitate any upgrades you may plan/anticipate for the future, like installing a frig to reduce your trips to the kitchen for a beer.
See far right (i.e., the frig, not the sub panel... a nice addition to the shop "tools") - https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/21327266842/in/photostream

Sonny

On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to
>> do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
>> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
>> new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
> That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
> the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
> 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
> all the way back to the garage.
>
> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can
at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A
panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights
are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and
wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed
(but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
point" is simply a "no-brainer">

On 1/4/2017 3:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>>> to do:
>>>>
>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
>>>> will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>>

[snip]
>>
>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>
>
> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
> Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
> over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
> 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
> (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
>
> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
> for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
> wiring in the shop to save money.

GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish
to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of
installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply
ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he
definitely should "Go big or go home!" ;)

Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average
handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC.

Agree with everyone else about running a subpanel instead of the couple cir=
cuits. I have a 100 amp panel in the garage. I used a 60 amp breaker to p=
ut a subpanel in the basement. I installed a lot of circuits and lights an=
d two 220 plugs in the basement. Had to use some of the double breakers to=
make room in the main panel for the subpanel breaker.

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:05:36 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.
>>
>>
>> ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220
>> amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use
>> some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220
>> breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those
>> breakers.
>>
>
>I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.
>
>I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
>This can come off the main feed into the house.
>I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.

I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space
has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I
read it.
>
>But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every
>situation is different.
>The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job,
>similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or
>giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a
>real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has
>to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone
>says.

On 1/6/2017 1:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can
>>>> come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a
>>>> 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
>>>
>>> I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then
>>> space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least
>>> that's how I read it.
>>
>>
>> Maybe even he meant 240 volt.
>
> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure
> those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the
> numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use
> it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house,
> but the outlet says 115 volts.
>



IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I
do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and
wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than
and or slightly higher than the stated voltage.

Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:

>> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
>> This can come off the main feed into the house.
>> I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
>
> I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space
> has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I
> read it.


Maybe even he meant 240 volt.

On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
>> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those
>> are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers
>> used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why
>> does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the
>> outlet says 115 volts.
>
> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
> longer understood, that was considered "safe").

Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
quite a bight many miles away.




When Tesla
> and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V
> as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in
> the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V.
>
> 115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance
> for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is
> what 120 less 5% would be).
>
> 220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his
> first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC.
>
> 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
> US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if
> you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for
> sale in the EU and US.
>
> John
>

On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
>> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
>> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

>> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
>> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
>> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>>
>
> I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
> Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
> once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
> have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
> window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
> the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
> whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
> stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
> water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
> TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
> homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
> could easily exceed 100amp service.
>
> Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
> stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
> than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
> inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
> 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
> wasted money.

You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
pulled more than 50A at a given time.

Am I using more electricity than ever? I have more items, but my newer
refrigerators use half the power than the old ones. My flat screen TV
uses about a quarter of the old one.

Typical use for a month at my house is 750 KW, peak in summer about
830Kw. How about you?

"Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am
> going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

Not enough IMHO.

If you're hiring an electrician anyway, have him run one 240V 60A circuit feeding a subpanel
in the shop. That way, you'll have 240V available in the shop if you ever need it, and more
than one 20A circuit at 120V.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those
> are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers
> used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why
> does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the
> outlet says 115 volts.

It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
longer understood, that was considered "safe"). When Tesla
and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V
as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in
the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V.

115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance
for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is
what 120 less 5% would be).

220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his
first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC.

230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if
you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for
sale in the EU and US.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:Q9idnQchSrQoje3FnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:

> On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:

>> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
>> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
>> longer understood, that was considered "safe").
>
> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
> quite a bight many miles away.

AC doesn't have the same losses as DC because it can be
transferred at a higher voltage. If you sent AC from the
generating station to your house at 120V you'd have the
same losses as with DC. The wires on the utility pole
outside your house are 4600V (or something in that range,
different utilities use various distribution voltages).

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:YPydndGe9p2PjuzFnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:

> Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
> cables could be smaller.

Sort of. The real reason it was done was because tetra-ethyl
lead was invented.

(Tetra-ethyl lead allows higher octane gasoline. Higher octane
gasoline allows higher compression engines. Higher compression
engines require more power from the starter motor to get them
started, which requires more current from the battery. During
the 1950's compression ratios went from ~6:1 to ~9:1, which
became a problem for both the battery and the cables. Hence
the switch to 12 volt electrical systems.)

John

On 1/4/2017 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:

> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Hey, look! ... a wRec electrical thread to jump in with another opinion.

What -MIKE- originally said ... think SUB-PANEL!

When spending the money to upgrade your home's electrical service to a
more modern 200A, the addition of a sub panel (60A is ideal) to your
shop is the most cost effective time to do it; and would add utility for
both your home, your shop, and you.

Just like you can't have too many clamps, a serious Normite woodworker
requires a sub panel in his shop PERIOD, end of story.

... it's 240v ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/7/2017 9:25 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 1/6/17 2:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
>> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
>> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
>> quite a bight many miles away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Actually no different. There is consideration of switching some high
> voltage lines to DC partially because for the same peak voltage the
> wires can carry significantly more power.

That may be now but back then the DC simply did not have the range that
AC did.

Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
cables could be smaller.




>
> A big reason for the switch from DC to AC is the ability to efficiently
> reduce the voltage at point of use, allowing the distribution lines to
> run at higher voltage with the exponentially lower power losses.
>
>
> -BR
>

On 1/4/2017 5:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route
>> to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated
>> 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200
>> to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for
>> the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
>> new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
> deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>
> Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
> long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
>
> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
> nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
> problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>
>
Mike Marlow ... how the hell are you...???


--
Jeff

---
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I remember 110 being standard then moving to 115.
Then 117 and then 120. In some places 125 and 130 is common.

It all is the expanding current / power use on the far end
of the power house. Same copper increase the voltage and more power.

All you have to do is change a tap at the transmitter and downflow is
automatically changed by ratio.

Martin

On 1/6/2017 2:52 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/6/2017 1:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can
>>>>> come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a
>>>>> 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then
>>>> space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least
>>>> that's how I read it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe even he meant 240 volt.
>>
>> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
>> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure
>> those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the
>> numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use
>> it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house,
>> but the outlet says 115 volts.
>>
>
>
>
> IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I
> do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and
> wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than
> and or slightly higher than the stated voltage.
>
> Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:31:52 PM UTC-6, Gramps' shop wrote:
> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker b=
ox is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the baseme=
nt and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>=20
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 =
amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $150=
0 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of =
a new meter.
>=20
> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new =
kitchen table.
>=20
> Larry

I agree with Mike and Unquestionably. In fact that is the setup I have. T=
hat subpanel just makes life soooooooo much easier, but get one with at lea=
st 8 breakers spaces in it. =20

One change I would make to their suggestions, I would run 100A to the shop.=
That way you have plenty of power if you wind up adding something that li=
kes it amps. Also, depending on both where you live and your comfort level=
, you can do the wiring of the shop yourself and save a lot. Also, dependi=
ng on where you live, the power company may not require a new meter. If yo=
u are aerial to the house (vs buried cable), they may run the heavier servi=
ce to your house at no cost.

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> >> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
> >> This can come off the main feed into the house.
> >> I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
> >
> > I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space
> > has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I
> > read it.
>=20
>=20
> Maybe even he meant 240 volt.

Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220=
-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all ide=
ntical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeabl=
y? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about =
120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>=20
> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.


??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp bre=
aker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those =
double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub pa=
nel. So you would be moving those breakers.

On 1/6/2017 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:

> Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

Unless is is 480

I read the explanation once but still don't get 277 volts from 2 legs of
3 phase.

The nominal 120 was decided as the standard for north America but I'm
not sure when. Voltages were 110, 115, 117 in different places some
years ago.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice.
>>>>>> The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no
>>>>>> clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's
>>>>>> what I am going to do:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the
>>>>>> utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to
>>>>>> completing the new kitchen table.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the
>>>>> shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
>>>>> circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
>>>>> decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector,
>>>>> etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the
>>>>> garage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>>>>
>>>> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your
>>>> situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run
>>>> the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
>>>>
>>>> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the
>>>> meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and
>>>> installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate
>>>> circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of
>>>> which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and
>>>> shop are two separate circuit.
>>>>
>>>> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still
>>>> have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add
>>>> more if needed (but don't see that happening).
>>>>
>>>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>>>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>>>
>>>
>>> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one
>>> piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to
>>> the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
>>> 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of
>>> #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
>>
>> #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's
>> a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
>> costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
>> away with one 12-3, for two circuits.
>>
>> BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.
>
>That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.

The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a
PITA to work with.

>
>
>>>
>>> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100
>>> bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can
>>> run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
>>
>> I think you're way low on your estimates.
>>
>
>Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
>200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel
>wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything
>else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.

Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours.
It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with
the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple
task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:31:49 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
>Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

It's very unlikely that the power company will charge you anything to
upgrade to 200A. I'm guessing that $1200 is well short of what it'll
cost, though. If you don't need the 200A service for other things, a
sub-panel would be the way to go. A sub-panel in the basement would
be ideal.

>In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
>
>Larry

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:30:07 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <[email protected]>
wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]>
>>>Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
>>>Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2
>>>
>>>
>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
>>>> box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
>>>> basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>>>>
>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.
>>>
>>>Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local
>>>building
>>>department won't let you.
>>>
>>>> Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>
>>>NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
>>>sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
>>>then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
>>>of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
>>>basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.
>>
>> The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
>> 100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's
>> going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20
>> circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in
>> more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is
>> likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of
>> circuits is important, though.
>>>
>>>The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
>>>future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.
>>>
>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>>>> to
>>>> hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>
>>>Get a quote so you aren't guessing.
>>
>> +1 (I think he's low)
>
>I think we are mostly on the same page here. We just disagree about the
>details.
>
Probably talking past each other. It happens when threads get
convoluted.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>>> to do:
>>>>
>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
>>>> will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
>>> area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
>>> circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
>>> decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
>>> you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.
>>>
>>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>>
>> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
>> and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
>> to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
>>
>> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
>> can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
>> a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
>> lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
>> opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
>> circuit.
>>
>> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
>> room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
>> needed (but don't see that happening).
>>
>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>
>
>The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
>Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
>over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
>12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
>(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a
*lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
away with one 12-3, for two circuits.

BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.
>
>Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
>for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
>wiring in the shop to save money.

I think you're way low on your estimates.

On 1/7/2017 10:29 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:YPydndGe9p2PjuzFnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>> Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
>> cables could be smaller.
>
> Sort of. The real reason it was done was because tetra-ethyl
> lead was invented.
>
> (Tetra-ethyl lead allows higher octane gasoline. Higher octane
> gasoline allows higher compression engines. Higher compression
> engines require more power from the starter motor to get them
> started, which requires more current from the battery. During
> the 1950's compression ratios went from ~6:1 to ~9:1, which
> became a problem for both the battery and the cables. Hence
> the switch to 12 volt electrical systems.)
>
> John
>


Not sure I follow.

Both lead and higher octane fuels reduce precognition knock. Lead did
not allow higher octane, it boosted the octane. Lead's main feature was
that it lubricated the valves, boosting octane was a perk. Hence in the
early 70's when unleaded fuel was introduced only vehicles with modern
engines could run unleaded fuel with out damage to the valve train.

Knock is caused by a number of reasons, compression being only one of
them. Hotter running engines also create more compression and running
more advance on the spark timing will cause an engine to run hotter.

In the early 80's American built vehicles had relatively low compression
ratio engines, in the 6's, and engine knock was a constant problem.
Enter the computers and knock sensors to retard the ignition timing.

On 1/4/2017 1:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>
> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
>
> Larry
>
If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the
major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire
for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well
put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your
wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-)

On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to
> do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>
> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
> new kitchen table.
>
> Larry
>

I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>> to do:
>>>
>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
>>> will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>
>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>
>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
>> area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
>> circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
>> decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
>> you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.
>>
>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>
> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
> and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
> to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
>
> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
> can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
> a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
> lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
> opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
> circuit.
>
> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
> room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
> needed (but don't see that happening).
>
> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>

The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Gramps' shop wrote:
> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>
> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
>
> Larry
>

Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


--
-Mike-
[email protected]

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>> to do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
>> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>> the new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>

I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers.
Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an
electrician who likes those things. :-)


> Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit
> as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
>
> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>

I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/4/2017 4:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>>> to do:
>>>>
>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
>>>> will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
>>> area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
>>> circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
>>> decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
>>> you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.
>>>
>>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>>
>> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
>> and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
>> to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
>>
>> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
>> can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
>> a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
>> lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
>> opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
>> circuit.
>>
>> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
>> room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
>> needed (but don't see that happening).
>>
>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>
>
> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
> Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
> over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
> 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
> (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
>
> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
> for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
> wiring in the shop to save money.
>
>
What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the
current building code for the community where the building is located.

As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple
circuit may require a building permit.

While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it
can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if
there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred.

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>> to do:
>>>
>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
>>> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>>> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>
>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>
>> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
>> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
>> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>>
>
> I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers.
> Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an
> electrician who likes those things. :-)
>
>
>> Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit
>> as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
>>
>> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
>> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
>> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>>
>
> I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
> Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
> once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
> have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
> window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
> the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
> whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
> stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
> water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
> TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
> homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
> could easily exceed 100amp service.

Mike, we are completely on the same page on that one.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
> box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
> basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building
department won't let you.

> Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to
> hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice.
>>>>> The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no
>>>>> clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's
>>>>> what I am going to do:
>>>>>
>>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the
>>>>> utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to
>>>>> completing the new kitchen table.
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the
>>>> shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
>>>> circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
>>>> decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector,
>>>> etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the
>>>> garage.
>>>>
>>>> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>>>
>>> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your
>>> situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run
>>> the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
>>>
>>> When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the
>>> meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and
>>> installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate
>>> circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of
>>> which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and
>>> shop are two separate circuit.
>>>
>>> Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still
>>> have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add
>>> more if needed (but don't see that happening).
>>>
>>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>>
>>
>> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one
>> piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to
>> the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
>> 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of
>> #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
>
> #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's
> a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
> costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
> away with one 12-3, for two circuits.
>
> BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.

That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.


>>
>> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100
>> bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can
>> run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
>
> I think you're way low on your estimates.
>

Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel
wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything
else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply