On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 05:34:27 GMT, Pops wrote:
>
> It's basically my inexperience. They are the same thinkness but there is a
> little misalignment, not much, maybe 1/32. I use a biscuit jointer. I think
> they will get better as I gain experience.
>
I always seem to get some misalignment too no matter how carefully I
go even with panel clamps.
What I use to rectify matters is a no.80 Stanley scraper plane.
They're cheap tools but with a bit of fettling they're good for all
sorts of purposes including removing glue ooze on your panels.
A few strokes with the scraper plane, maybe a bit of mucking around
with a hand scraper and a bit of light sanding will do the trick. Your
panel probably wont be dead flat but it will be good enough.
If the misalignment is much greater then you'll have to get a bench
plane out.
I'm doing a built-in desk ATM with which I used that technique & the
results are acceptable. Unfinished pics at:
http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/pics.php?type=12&data=
So to answer your question; I think you can get away without a belt
sander, I'm quite happy with my ROS and if I wasn't lazy I could
probably get away without that too.
--
Frank
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:47:39 -0800, "Howard Ruttan"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"CW" > wrote...
>> what you say is good advice but I think you need a little practice with
>your
>> belt sander. They are really not that hard.
>
>I never implied they were hard. Just useless.
Considering that I have worn out at least one belt sander and wouldn't
even consider a shop without one I think you are completely out to
lunch.
That said, what the OP needs is to be able to true up his panels, I
assume some that are already glued up, otherwise he is better off to
try to improve the alignment on future panels to eliminate the need
for either sanding *or* planing. Cauls are the obvious (to me) answer
for future panels. For truing existing ones the belt sander works
well, the main problem is that they are very aggressive. I have
overcome that in part by using finer grits than seem reasonable. For a
glued-up furniture type panel I wouldn't use anything coarser than
150. It works slower and doesn't create the problems you get with
coarse grits. Might even go a lot finer than that.
If you want to plane, fine. It will probably give you a better surface
than sanding once you master planing. I haven't and probably won't
ever get real good at it because I don't have the time to spend in the
shop. I don't care what the experts say, it is a challenge to learn
how to do a good job with a hand plane.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Jeff Buck wrote:
>> The thing about planes is that you really can't just go out and buy one
>> and
>> use it. You have to sharpen it, tune it up,
>
> Unless you buy a plane from Steve Knight ;)
Yeah, well, some day, some day indeed. Not anytime soon though, I'm afraid,
unless Steve has an ugly one he wants to sell me cheeeeap. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:49:40 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
>match perfectly which means I sand.
Plane them.
Belt sanders have a terrifying appetite for digging divots by accident
(never let them tilt, so they become a drum sander). Although they
would do the job, I'd hazard that it's easier to learn to plane than
to learn to belt sand.
Why don't your boards align ? Does the thickness vary, or is it just
an alignment problem ? Some careful biscuit jointing can make
alignment less troublesome.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
He's not talking about jointing.
"Chris Merrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pops wrote:
> > So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that
don't
> > match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander,
would a
> > belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match
better?
>
> IMO, no. I've got a belt-sander...it would be one of my last choices for
> jointing. If that's your only option...I'd take it over a ROS.
>
> Do you have a router? A router, a flush-trimming bit and a straight-edge
> will give you a much 'straighter' edge than a sander.
>
> After than...I'd pick a jointer-plane and do it by hand.
>
> --
> ************************************
> Chris Merrill
> [email protected]
> (remove the ZZZ to contact me)
> ************************************
>
Pops wrote:
>
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match better?
Is the joint slipping during glueup? Clamp small pieces of scrap across the
glueline, and you won't have to flatten it.
Cover the scrap cauls with masking tape for easy unsticking from the
dried panel.
Howard Ruttan <[email protected]> schreef
> Belt sanders are a complete waste of time and money.
+ + +
Belt sanders are a nice idea, and can be useful for some jobs, such as
truing up books
PvR
or you could plane them. I just got back from Borders today after taking
a loooong look at a very interesting book on planes; history, tuning;
usage, all very well explained. Might go on my X-mas wish list...oh,
hell, I already got my X-mas toys! I've got the nagging feeling I'm
gonna be Neandering before too long. My resolve not to is slipping.
dave
Pops wrote:
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match better?
>
>
"CW" > wrote...
> what you say is good advice but I think you need a little practice with
your
> belt sander. They are really not that hard.
I never implied they were hard. Just useless.
--
Cheers,
Howard
----------------------------------------------------------
Working wood in New Jersey - [email protected]
Visit me in the woodshop - www.inthewoodshop.org
It's basically my inexperience. They are the same thinkness but there is a
little misalignment, not much, maybe 1/32. I use a biscuit jointer. I think
they will get better as I gain experience.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:49:40 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that
don't
> >match perfectly which means I sand.
>
> Plane them.
>
> Belt sanders have a terrifying appetite for digging divots by accident
> (never let them tilt, so they become a drum sander). Although they
> would do the job, I'd hazard that it's easier to learn to plane than
> to learn to belt sand.
>
> Why don't your boards align ? Does the thickness vary, or is it just
> an alignment problem ? Some careful biscuit jointing can make
> alignment less troublesome.
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Wow,
didn't mean to start such a ruckus. You hit the nail on the head (I have
problems with that too!). I need to get better at the gluing process. I have
both a jointer and planer. This last set of glue-ups were by far the best
but still off a bit.
What are cauls? If they are the answer (from your opinion) I would be
interested in understanding what you are referring to.
thanks to you and everyone who has offered great advice.
"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:47:39 -0800, "Howard Ruttan"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"CW" > wrote...
> >> what you say is good advice but I think you need a little practice with
> >your
> >> belt sander. They are really not that hard.
> >
> >I never implied they were hard. Just useless.
>
> Considering that I have worn out at least one belt sander and wouldn't
> even consider a shop without one I think you are completely out to
> lunch.
>
> That said, what the OP needs is to be able to true up his panels, I
> assume some that are already glued up, otherwise he is better off to
> try to improve the alignment on future panels to eliminate the need
> for either sanding *or* planing. Cauls are the obvious (to me) answer
> for future panels. For truing existing ones the belt sander works
> well, the main problem is that they are very aggressive. I have
> overcome that in part by using finer grits than seem reasonable. For a
> glued-up furniture type panel I wouldn't use anything coarser than
> 150. It works slower and doesn't create the problems you get with
> coarse grits. Might even go a lot finer than that.
>
> If you want to plane, fine. It will probably give you a better surface
> than sanding once you master planing. I haven't and probably won't
> ever get real good at it because I don't have the time to spend in the
> shop. I don't care what the experts say, it is a challenge to learn
> how to do a good job with a hand plane.
>
> Tim Douglass
>
> http://www.DouglassClan.com
"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would
a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match
better?
Pops,
Try semi-clamping down cross pieces (2 X 4s maybe) on top and bottom of your
glued boards to keep them flat, but take them off before the glue hardens so
they
don't get stuck to your project.
Michael
Everyone keeps saying how hard it is to use a belt sander. Why? I always
found it to be one of the easiest things to do. The problem probably has a
lot to do with those two big handles they put on them. People try to
overpower them. Just like a floor buffer, try to overpower it and you will
be sorry. Just guide it around. Let it do the work. That said, I will plane
and scrape before I ever sand. Faster and cleaner.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:49:40 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that
don't
> >match perfectly which means I sand.
>
> Plane them.
>
> Belt sanders have a terrifying appetite for digging divots by accident
> (never let them tilt, so they become a drum sander). Although they
> would do the job, I'd hazard that it's easier to learn to plane than
> to learn to belt sand.
>
> Why don't your boards align ? Does the thickness vary, or is it just
> an alignment problem ? Some careful biscuit jointing can make
> alignment less troublesome.
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
what you say is good advice but I think you need a little practice with your
belt sander. They are really not that hard.
"Howard Ruttan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> NO!
>
> First, I hope you are not talking about your edge to edge fit before the
> glue-up because, if you are, that is another matter. I am operating from
> the assumption that you mean an uneven surface on the glued panel.
>
> Belt sanders are a complete waste of time and money. I have had one for
15
> years and have barely 15 minutes worth of benefit from it. You would be
far
> better of going to a garage sale and picking up a Stanley #5 jack plane
(or
> a #4 would be good) and learning how to tune and use it. I know I am
going
> to get strong reactions to the contrary, but that is my story and I am
> sticking to it!
>
> --
>
> Cheers,
> Howard
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Working wood in New Jersey - [email protected]
> Visit me in the woodshop - www.inthewoodshop.org
>
>
"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Wow,
> didn't mean to start such a ruckus. You hit the nail on the head (I have
> problems with that too!). I need to get better at the gluing process. I have
> both a jointer and planer. This last set of glue-ups were by far the best
> but still off a bit
Of course you need a portable belt sander!
One of the best accidental buys I ever made was for a portable belt
sander that can be placed on its back & thereby function as a small,
fixed belt sander.
I had the sander for maybe a dozen years and didn't use it very much
until I tried setting it upside-down on the bench (with the belt
pointing up.)
This mode of operation greatly eases the aggressiveness problem. It is
MUCH easier to precisely move the work over the sander rather than
visa-versa.
I store the sander on the wall with its belt facing out; in this mode
it works great as a grinder as well as for occasional sanding.
I now use the belt sander a lot in one of its fixed modes. It has
become one of my essential machines.
I lock its trigger on & use an external switched outlet for power.
That's a nice looking desk. What's your plan for the
area under the stairs?
Michael
"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 05:34:27 GMT, Pops wrote:
> >
> > It's basically my inexperience. They are the same thinkness but there is
a
> > little misalignment, not much, maybe 1/32. I use a biscuit jointer. I
think
> > they will get better as I gain experience.
> >
>
> I always seem to get some misalignment too no matter how carefully I
> go even with panel clamps.
>
> What I use to rectify matters is a no.80 Stanley scraper plane.
> They're cheap tools but with a bit of fettling they're good for all
> sorts of purposes including removing glue ooze on your panels.
>
> A few strokes with the scraper plane, maybe a bit of mucking around
> with a hand scraper and a bit of light sanding will do the trick. Your
> panel probably wont be dead flat but it will be good enough.
>
> If the misalignment is much greater then you'll have to get a bench
> plane out.
>
> I'm doing a built-in desk ATM with which I used that technique & the
> results are acceptable. Unfinished pics at:
>
> http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/pics.php?type=12&data=
>
> So to answer your question; I think you can get away without a belt
> sander, I'm quite happy with my ROS and if I wasn't lazy I could
> probably get away without that too.
>
>
> --
>
> Frank
>
"Pops" wrote ...
> Wow,
> didn't mean to start such a ruckus.
A ruckus is good. A ruckus is the wRECk. At least this thread isn't a
troll trap.
--
Cheers,
Howard
----------------------------------------------------------
Working wood in New Jersey - [email protected]
Visit me in the woodshop - www.inthewoodshop.org
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:57:02 GMT, Pops wrote:
>
> Great looking desk.
Thanks a lot.
>
> I guess the next long thread is what type / brand of scraper to buy. I don't
> have one but from all the comments (not on just this thread) they are handy
> gadgets.
I'm really fond of my Stanley #80 (Is it the only Stanley tool worth
buying? ;)
I honed the edge of mine before turning a burr and I also lapped the
sole & put a bit of wax on it. It's invaluable for panels IMO:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/default.asp?part=STA80
For hand scrapers I like Cliftons:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/default.asp?part=CLI4212
If you live the other side of the pond, I'm afraid I don't know where
you get them from.
There's a bit of an art to fettling and using them. Hopefully,
somebody could provide you with a relevant link.
You'll need a burnisher too - loads of different makes of those but I
believe Veritas make one; pretty sure they make card scrapers too but
I haven't tried them. My impression of Veritas gear is that it's
pretty good though & worth the bit extra.
--
Frank
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:20:01 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Wow,
>didn't mean to start such a ruckus. You hit the nail on the head (I have
>problems with that too!). I need to get better at the gluing process. I have
>both a jointer and planer. This last set of glue-ups were by far the best
>but still off a bit.
>
>What are cauls? If they are the answer (from your opinion) I would be
>interested in understanding what you are referring to.
Pieces clamped across the glue-up to hold it flat. Every foot or so
you put two *straight* 2x2 pieces (hard and stiff is best) across the
panel, one above and one below, and use clamps to squeeze them down
tight. Then you pull the pieces together with your pipe clamps (or
Bessys for the elite). If all pieces are the same thickness and have
good edges you should get a near perfect panel. To prevent your cauls
from becoming one with your panel (interesting effect, but not
terribly useful) put a layer or two of that 2" wide packing tape on
them, you know, the stuff that looks like really wide scotch tape.
Good luck!
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would
a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match
better?
>
>
How far out are they? Hand held belt sanders scare me. One wrong move and
. . . . .
Ed
Pops wrote:
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match better?
IMO, no. I've got a belt-sander...it would be one of my last choices for
jointing. If that's your only option...I'd take it over a ROS.
Do you have a router? A router, a flush-trimming bit and a straight-edge
will give you a much 'straighter' edge than a sander.
After than...I'd pick a jointer-plane and do it by hand.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 04:05:30 GMT, Michael wrote:
>
> That's a nice looking desk. What's your plan for the
> area under the stairs?
>
There's a sort of gallery with a couple of drawers there now. I'm
going to the job today to start building some shelves above the desk.
I'm hoping to have it all finished in a couple of weeks time. I'll
then take some more pictures & post a link on the wreck.
--
Frank
Pops wrote:
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would
> a belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match
> better?
I trued and tuned and futzed and fiddled, and my POS saw isn't going to get
any better than this. To do a multi-board glue-up, I have to doctor up the
pieces.
I originally used my combination 36" belt/6" disc sander for this sort of
stuff. With the fence removed, it's possible to sand long boards. The
problem is keeping it perfectly even, since you can't get the whole thing
onto the belt at once. There are bigger sanders, but they're expensive.
I get *much* better results now that I'm a burgeoning Neander. A few quick
swipes with a plane, and I get perfect edges every time. I'm cheating and
using a jointing fence to reduce my chances of screwing it up.
The thing about planes is that you really can't just go out and buy one and
use it. You have to sharpen it, tune it up, and then there's the question
of outfitting your workbench for that sort of work. It's a slippery slope,
but I don't regret any of it.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:49:40 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
>match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would a
>belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match better?
>
Belt sanders are aggressive and do a good job. Buy a biscuit (plate)
jointer.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:49:40 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that
don't
> >match perfectly which means I sand.
>
> Plane them.
>
> Belt sanders have a terrifying appetite for digging divots by accident
> (never let them tilt, so they become a drum sander). Although they
> would do the job, I'd hazard that it's easier to learn to plane than
> to learn to belt sand.
>
> Why don't your boards align ? Does the thickness vary, or is it just
> an alignment problem ? Some careful biscuit jointing can make
> alignment less troublesome.
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
All this talk of planing makes my arms hurt. Scrapers, too. All that is
great for little stuff, but get into big things, and production work, and
give me a belt or ROS any time.
--
Jim in NC
"Pops" wrote ...
> So, I am getting better at gluing up boards but still have some that don't
> match perfectly which means I sand. I have a random orbital sander, would
a
> belt sander be better until I get to the point where my boards match
better?
NO!
First, I hope you are not talking about your edge to edge fit before the
glue-up because, if you are, that is another matter. I am operating from
the assumption that you mean an uneven surface on the glued panel.
Belt sanders are a complete waste of time and money. I have had one for 15
years and have barely 15 minutes worth of benefit from it. You would be far
better of going to a garage sale and picking up a Stanley #5 jack plane (or
a #4 would be good) and learning how to tune and use it. I know I am going
to get strong reactions to the contrary, but that is my story and I am
sticking to it!
--
Cheers,
Howard
----------------------------------------------------------
Working wood in New Jersey - [email protected]
Visit me in the woodshop - www.inthewoodshop.org
Great looking desk.
I guess the next long thread is what type / brand of scraper to buy. I don't
have one but from all the comments (not on just this thread) they are handy
gadgets.
Pops
"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 05:34:27 GMT, Pops wrote:
> >
> > It's basically my inexperience. They are the same thinkness but there is
a
> > little misalignment, not much, maybe 1/32. I use a biscuit jointer. I
think
> > they will get better as I gain experience.
> >
>
> I always seem to get some misalignment too no matter how carefully I
> go even with panel clamps.
>
> What I use to rectify matters is a no.80 Stanley scraper plane.
> They're cheap tools but with a bit of fettling they're good for all
> sorts of purposes including removing glue ooze on your panels.
>
> A few strokes with the scraper plane, maybe a bit of mucking around
> with a hand scraper and a bit of light sanding will do the trick. Your
> panel probably wont be dead flat but it will be good enough.
>
> If the misalignment is much greater then you'll have to get a bench
> plane out.
>
> I'm doing a built-in desk ATM with which I used that technique & the
> results are acceptable. Unfinished pics at:
>
> http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/pics.php?type=12&data=
>
> So to answer your question; I think you can get away without a belt
> sander, I'm quite happy with my ROS and if I wasn't lazy I could
> probably get away without that too.
>
>
> --
>
> Frank
>