Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
stuff?
I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
something.
I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
"Steve knight"
snip
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
Send some to Robin Lee. Make a deal with him.
Dave
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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My folks had a successful country craft/gift business, and they
eventually ended up with a wholesale line. I don't know how they found
their sales rep, but he traveled regionally and did trade shows ...
their company's booth featured several smaller manufacturers. Never
having been to a woodworking show, I don't know if there's anything
comparable. I wish you luck!
Jim in PA
>Ebay is an efficient market. Any product is worth exactly what someone is
>willing to pay for it. Ebay is telling you your price point. (I had
>guessed that's why you sold there.)
>
well of course but ebay is not a real good indicator of value. not
when junk goes for more then new quite a bit.
not when a lower quality item sells for more because it has a
certain name stamped on it. ebay is good for some items and bad for
others. anything handmade really does to sell well on ebay.
>Can you tune planes more efficiently if you have a row of them in front of
>you? Do one operation on all of them, then do the next op.
that's too much like production. I do a bit of that but not for
everything.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 10:27pm (EST-3) [email protected]
(Steve=A0knight) prety much feels about selling, like I do, and says:
<snip> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
You could give one away. Say to Jimmy Carter. Making damn sure to
put out who it came from, that you make 'em to sell, and how to get
ahold you, to buy one. I don't know if George woodworks, but even if h
doesn't, giving him one might be worthwile too. Best I can do.
A sacrifice for the Woodworking Gods will do nicely.
JOAT
A rolling stone gathers no moss...unless it's a hobby he does on the
weekends.
"Lyndell Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve, I know very little about marketing............but having an ebay
> store might help. Maybe you already do. I did a search for Steve Knight
> planes and did not get any hits.
Try searching eBay for Knight Toolworks.
J T (in [email protected]) said:
| Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 10:27pm (EST-3) [email protected]
| (Steve knight) prety much feels about selling, like I do, and says:
| <snip> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not
| enough.
|
| You could give one away. Say to Jimmy Carter
... or to the Mayor with a request that the spelling be changed to
"Planes".
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:37:41 GMT, "Dave Jackson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm no marketing expert, but if you like I'd be willing to manage a display
>at the Columbus OH woodworking show this Jan for free. I'm not sure how to
>go about reserving a spot, or what it costs, but let me know if your
>interested and I'll find out. --dave
>
give me a email and lets see what happens.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
O
>Another thought is to contact the people who do tool reviews for Wood Mag,
>FWW,etc. At the least it will cost you a plane to test.
>
I have had 5 reviews the first couple helped a lot the last three did
almost nothing. including fine woodworking. it was a bit weird.
like popular woodworking has done it twice and even has one of my
planes with nothing happening.
they don't do much on woodies for the most part.
my problem is I do something so uncommon I limit myself (G) there are
only a few of us in the world.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
I'm no marketing expert, but if you like I'd be willing to manage a display
at the Columbus OH woodworking show this Jan for free. I'm not sure how to
go about reserving a spot, or what it costs, but let me know if your
interested and I'll find out. --dave
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
"Fly-by-Night CC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Steve, Gary Rogowski's Northwest School is local to us and he seems to
> be successful with the classes. If you could get a couple to him and he
> used them, his students would likely want them as well.
Maybe even donate one or two with a small brass lettered insert "Donated
by".
Robin Lee (in [email protected]) said:
| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
|| Steve knight (in [email protected]) said:
||
||| I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
||
|| This makes me uncomfortable but I'll do it anyway - because I know
|| Steve won't...
||
|| Rob, you've surely seen this situation before - would you draw on
|| your experience and expertise to offer Steve some guidance either
|| on the forum or privately (or both); or could you point him at
|| someone who has overcome the same difficulties and might be
|| willing to offer suggestions?
|
| Steve can bend my ear anytime.... he's got my email!
I know he does - but I strongly suspect he'd choose to not impose.
| Have been following the same discussion on a number of boards - and
| he's received a lot of good advice already....
|
| If I had to pick just one thing - it'd be the deep discount
| specials.... keep'em to once a year (if at all).... he's trained
| his customers not to buy on an ongoing basis, and while he get's a
| lot of work with the specials, it's at a much lower margin than he
| needs...and there's an inevitable dry spell after...
Hmm. I should have recognized that (but didn't).
|
| If it was me - I'd do the following...
|
| 1) have a simple (from MFG/delivery standpoint) high utility
| introductory product at a lower price point.... like a block
| plane... 2) Sell planes with a re-order coupon for a discount....
| valid for something like 3 months...
| 3) Try and make more small runs (and put a small discount on those
| (to reflect economies of scale... say 10%)), instead of soliciting
| too much custom work... and put a small premium on the custom
| stuff...
Wizard advice! I may take some of that for myself! :-)
[ I especially like #2! ]
| Not much else I could add without knowing the ins and outs of his
| business....
I've walked in Steve's shoes - sort of (different product but same
class of problems) and your suggestions make perfect sense.
| Making a living off your own labour is a tough thing to do.... no
| matter what it is you do. Many undervalue their own work, usually
| by undervaluing time, or not paying as close attention to how much
| actual margin an activity generates (as opposed to how much gross
| sales are)...
BTDT - and I'm still fighting the urge to give my customers a better
deal than I'm willing to take for myself. Sometimes it seems that life
is all about finding the balance points; and suspect that this is one
of the important ones...
Thanks for responding. I felt awkward putting you on the spot as I
did; but you've made me glad I asked.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
I am with JT on this one. While giving away is not too profitable, in the
right hands it could mean great results. A plane donation to high profile
or visibility organizations might be a good avenue to experiment with.
Certainly cheaper than going on the road and selling. Habitat for Humanity,
David Marks, Jimmy Carter maybe. Have you considered putting some planes
on consignment at your local woodworking stores or lumberyards?
Steve knight (in [email protected]) said:
| I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
This makes me uncomfortable but I'll do it anyway - because I know
Steve won't...
Rob, you've surely seen this situation before - would you draw on your
experience and expertise to offer Steve some guidance either on the
forum or privately (or both); or could you point him at someone who
has overcome the same difficulties and might be willing to offer
suggestions?
Thanks.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
"noonenparticular" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Send one to me. I'll talk your company up mercilessly.
>
> JC (who's still saving for one of Steve's planes) (and no, that doesn't
> stand for james carter)
>
> Seriously, good luck Steve. Even with a quality product, what you're
> facing can be the least fun thing of being in business. At least from my
> perspective. Takes away from time in the shop.
>
> jc
You need to save up faster if you do not have one of his planes. I have a
few and I do not use hand planes. Well at least I useta not use hand
planes. His Smoother plane has become a favorite tool in my shop and it
gets me out of all kinds of trouble. It is a great tweak it here and tweak
it there kinda plane.
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve -
In addition to the other comments - I would seek out some of the better
known woodworkers who demo at he shows. Frank Klaus comes to mind but there
are others. I'd contact them and see what they'd require to dome your
product.
Another thought is to contact the people who do tool reviews for Wood Mag,
FWW,etc. At the least it will cost you a plane to test.
As an aside - I now have 3 of Steve's planes and to those of you who say
you're saving up - save FASTER - you don't know what you're missing.
Vic
>One thing you might want to do is check with the business programs of any
>nearby colleges to see if they offer a class similar to one I took my
>senior year "Entrepreneurship and new Business Planning" but not to take
>though. When I took that class the prof divided us up into four or five
>teams, four students each and assigned each team to a local small business
>that had signed up to get help getting off the ground or expanding in some
>way. The scope of what we did covered everything from securing financing
>to marketing plans to bookkeeping. For the semester each business in the
>program got a four person consultancy team for free.
the biggest problem is I am such a oddball that most of the info does
not really fit into what I do. I have such a limited scope to sell too
and tools are a odd thing to make anyway. they don't sell like other
things do.
Plus I could saturate the market and then be stuck too.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
>One other point. Do you want to be a craftsman or a manufacturer with
>employees? If you raise your volume you will change the nature of your
>business.
yes that's always something I thought of. I don't really want to be a
manufacturer I just want a more reliable sale.
>However, if you add sales reps or agents, you may find yourself priced
>Hope this is all clear. If it isn't, you may have a a more significant
>problem.
it is more like work (G) but yes I know where you are coming from. I
would not mind subcontracting a few things out or maybe a book keeper.
but would I be willing to work that much harder to be able to afford
it? that's the tuff one.
where I have my limits are sanding the planes (that can eat up quite a
bit of time but someone can do that for me) and how many planes I can
tune up. this is the part that is the hardest of all to do. it took me
years to get good at it. so if I had someone do it I would really have
to plan on a long term apprentice program.
so this is why keeping small is the way to go for me for the most
part.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:27:50 -0800, Steve knight <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
>after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
>and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
>stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
>the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
>would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
>week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
>something.
>I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
>Knight-Toolworks
>http://www.knight-toolworks.com
>affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve.. I think the word/person/occupation that you're looking for is
"Distributor"...
When my brother & I were building model plane kits, we were spending too much
time talking to hobby shops and too little time in the shop..
He did a web search for "hobby shop distributors" or something and got a few
hits, but what worked best was to ask the target market.. in our case hobby
shops, who stocked their shelves..
He found a well-known distributor that serviced several of his existing
customers and away he went..... doubled his sales and more than doubled his
profits in about 6 months..
A good distributor will already have your market covered and be experienced in
selling custom tools to dealers... hope this helps and good luck!
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:18:22 GMT, "Lyndell Thompson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Steve, I know very little about marketing............but having an ebay
>store might help. Maybe you already do. I did a search for Steve Knight
>planes and did not get any hits. Another thought that comes to mind is
>giving one to a woodworking school......such as American Sycamore etc. and
>of course keeping the teachers pockets full of your business cards. :-)
got one now. I want to dump regular ebay as it hurts my prices. maybe
keep the store though. it does not cost much to keep the store going.
I have donated about 9 planes to schools I get rave reviews and then
nothing.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
John Emmons wrote:
> I don't think you're as much of an oddball as you might think. I work in the
> slot car industry, talk about oddballs....
>
> There are a lot of guys doing similiar things to what you're doing, making
> very nice tools and parts for a limited market. The market for expensive
> slot car parts is unbelievably small compared to wood working and planes.
> Yet it keeps folks employed and making profits.
>
> I think you need to take a hard look at your pricing and figure out how many
> planes, marking knives, etc. you need to make in order to live in the style
> to which you've become accustomed first. Then once you know that, find
> someone to help you sell them. I wouldn't worry about saturating the market.
> How many woodworkers out there even know you exist at this point?
>
> I'd try to find someone who would be interested in selling your products on
> some sort of consignment basis. You'd need someone who's already selling
> something at the woodworking shows most likely.
>
> The classes in marketing would be a good idea too.I think you'd find that
> your're not that odd at all...
>
>
> John Emmons
>
>snip
An interesting but true fact, Most craftsmen, Tradesmen etc. go broke
trying to run their own business within the 1st 2 years.
I took a small business course many years ago and this fact was
emphasised throughout.
The business does not fail because the owner is not good at what he
does, it fails because he is to busy making items to market them.
This scenario often quite often with Mechanics. They start their own
business because they love what they do and want to be their own boss,
however, no one takes care of the books or marketing and down ya go.
Now that I have have spread doom and gloom, I wish all the best with
your planes Steve. I've only ever heard good remarks about them.
Kind regards
John
>Do you have ads in some of the better woodworking mags? Personally, I go
>through that section of FWW and FHB frequently and I think you would get a
>lot of exposure there.
way too expensive and not super effective to sell planes from. fww
costs 459.00 for a 1"x2" add. that's about 8 planes to break about
even or so every month. popular woodworking is far less though. but
ads never seemed to help me much.
>How about writing an article for FWW describing the plane making process?
>That would be sure to generate interest (and they pay for the articles,
>too).
I could give the info but I sure as hell can't write it. just read my
posts (G)
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve knight <[email protected]> writes:
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road?
If you don't like to travel - that's one thing.
But ignoring that, you have a dilemma.
1) You want to sell more planes.
2) You can't take time off to market your planes.
Either you want to increase your volume, or you don't.
You can't have it both ways.
Now I am going to say something that will make others mad at me, but
you probably have to raise your price, so you can have more time to
market them, and hire some help to make more planes.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
How much do you want to grow? Without increasing your prices, you may
be limited to 10% growth in profitably.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
You may need a new business plan and new slogan.
I don't own one of your planes, but someday I wish to. I may have
just shot myself in the foot, but it's my honest opinion.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve knight (in [email protected]) said:
>
> | I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
>
> This makes me uncomfortable but I'll do it anyway - because I know
> Steve won't...
>
> Rob, you've surely seen this situation before - would you draw on your
> experience and expertise to offer Steve some guidance either on the
> forum or privately (or both); or could you point him at someone who
> has overcome the same difficulties and might be willing to offer
> suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
>
Hi Morris -
Steve can bend my ear anytime.... he's got my email!
Have been following the same discussion on a number of boards - and he's
received a lot of good advice already....
If I had to pick just one thing - it'd be the deep discount specials....
keep'em to once a year (if at all).... he's trained his customers not to buy
on an ongoing basis, and while he get's a lot of work with the specials,
it's at a much lower margin than he needs...and there's an inevitable dry
spell after...
If it was me - I'd do the following...
1) have a simple (from MFG/delivery standpoint) high utility introductory
product at a lower price point.... like a block plane...
2) Sell planes with a re-order coupon for a discount.... valid for something
like 3 months...
3) Try and make more small runs (and put a small discount on those (to
reflect economies of scale... say 10%)), instead of soliciting too much
custom work... and put a small premium on the custom stuff...
Not much else I could add without knowing the ins and outs of his
business....
Making a living off your own labour is a tough thing to do.... no matter
what it is you do. Many undervalue their own work, usually by undervaluing
time, or not paying as close attention to how much actual margin an activity
generates (as opposed to how much gross sales are)...
Cheers -
Rob
>1) have a simple (from MFG/delivery standpoint) high utility introductory
>product at a lower price point.... like a block plane...
>2) Sell planes with a re-order coupon for a discount.... valid for something
>like 3 months...
>3) Try and make more small runs (and put a small discount on those (to
>reflect economies of scale... say 10%)), instead of soliciting too much
>custom work... and put a small premium on the custom stuff...
>
>Not much else I could add without knowing the ins and outs of his
>business....
>
>Making a living off your own labour is a tough thing to do.... no matter
>what it is you do. Many undervalue their own work, usually by undervaluing
>time, or not paying as close attention to how much actual margin an activity
>generates (as opposed to how much gross sales are)...
very good advice.
I think part of my problem was I did not have anything to fall back
on. so when it was slow it was bad. then I would have a sale and it
would get me behind and then the problems happen.
I have worked out what I sell the most atleast on ebay, purpleheart
planes sell more then anything else.
I need to dump ebay. it helped at first but now it just hurts me.
I need to get a part time job when work is slow so I don't suffer. (
my buddy who has a shop on the other side of my wall may help me
there)
get to shows and show off (G)
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
>Steve, Gary Rogowski's Northwest School is local to us and he seems to
>be successful with the classes. If you could get a couple to him and he
>used them, his students would likely want them as well.
>
>Do you have any contacts with anyone at the Oregon School of Arts and
>Crafts? Could be the same situation as with Rogowski.
I need to go visit. I keep forgetting. this is the part I'm not good
at (G)
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve, I know very little about marketing............but having an ebay
store might help. Maybe you already do. I did a search for Steve Knight
planes and did not get any hits. Another thought that comes to mind is
giving one to a woodworking school......such as American Sycamore etc. and
of course keeping the teachers pockets full of your business cards. :-)
Good Luck Lyndell
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve,
After my initial semi-humorous response I gave this some thought.
Do you have ads in some of the better woodworking mags? Personally, I go
through that section of FWW and FHB frequently and I think you would get a
lot of exposure there.
There also must be some industry mags where you could do the same thing.
The same people that would be at the trade shows would be reading these
magazines.
How about writing an article for FWW describing the plane making process?
That would be sure to generate interest (and they pay for the articles,
too).
Just a couple of thoughts.
jc
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
>If you don't like to travel - that's one thing.
>
>But ignoring that, you have a dilemma.
>
>1) You want to sell more planes.
>
>2) You can't take time off to market your planes.
>
>
>Either you want to increase your volume, or you don't.
>You can't have it both ways.
very true (G)) i think more of what I was after is to have steady
sales. it's hard when you sell one plane a week for a couple weeks or
a month then several in one day and so forth.
that makes it tuff to do any budgeting at all.
>Now I am going to say something that will make others mad at me, but
>you probably have to raise your price, so you can have more time to
>market them, and hire some help to make more planes.
this is good advice that I have been told often.
to do it I need to have something to fall back on while it happens. I
may have a part time job with a buddy and that will me raise prices
and dump ebay and such as it hurts now more then it helps.
>How much do you want to grow? Without increasing your prices, you may
>be limited to 10% growth in profitably.
I don't know if I really want to grow much. steady work would be good
but I would not want to sell at most 10 planes a week steady. that
would be a fair amount of work. 5 a week steady would not be too bad
at full price.
I'm not looking to get rich just make a living and pay the bills.
I want to enjoy it not become a plane manufacture.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:13:28 -0800, Steve knight <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>>1) have a simple (from MFG/delivery standpoint) high utility introductory
>>product at a lower price point.... like a block plane...
>>2) Sell planes with a re-order coupon for a discount.... valid for something
>>like 3 months...
>>3) Try and make more small runs (and put a small discount on those (to
>>reflect economies of scale... say 10%)), instead of soliciting too much
>>custom work... and put a small premium on the custom stuff...
>>
>>Not much else I could add without knowing the ins and outs of his
>>business....
>>
>>Making a living off your own labour is a tough thing to do.... no matter
>>what it is you do. Many undervalue their own work, usually by undervaluing
>>time, or not paying as close attention to how much actual margin an activity
>>generates (as opposed to how much gross sales are)...
>
>very good advice.
> I think part of my problem was I did not have anything to fall back
>on. so when it was slow it was bad. then I would have a sale and it
>would get me behind and then the problems happen.
> I have worked out what I sell the most atleast on ebay, purpleheart
>planes sell more then anything else.
> I need to dump ebay. it helped at first but now it just hurts me.
>I need to get a part time job when work is slow so I don't suffer. (
>my buddy who has a shop on the other side of my wall may help me
>there)
> get to shows and show off (G)
>Knight-Toolworks
>http://www.knight-toolworks.com
>affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve.. I would guess from the quality of workmanship on your planes that you're
good at other types of wood work??
I mention this from the woodturner's standpoint... few folks are lucky enough to
earn a living by JUST turning... so they build custom furniture, give turning
classes, or whatever... basically using 2 or more skills (not counting
marketing, of course), to even out the cash flow...
I feel your pain... if I only learned one thing as a Realtor/loan broker all
those years it was that "Cash is important, but it's cash FLOW that keeps you
going"..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
Send one to me. I'll talk your company up mercilessly.
JC (who's still saving for one of Steve's planes) (and no, that doesn't
stand for james carter)
Seriously, good luck Steve. Even with a quality product, what you're facing
can be the least fun thing of being in business. At least from my
perspective. Takes away from time in the shop.
jc
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
In article <[email protected]>,
"Lyndell Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Another thought that comes to mind is
> giving one to a woodworking school......such as American Sycamore etc. and
> of course keeping the teachers pockets full of your business cards. :-)
Steve, Gary Rogowski's Northwest School is local to us and he seems to
be successful with the classes. If you could get a couple to him and he
used them, his students would likely want them as well.
Do you have any contacts with anyone at the Oregon School of Arts and
Crafts? Could be the same situation as with Rogowski.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:27:50 -0800, Steve knight wrote:
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
Steve,
One thing you might want to do is check with the business programs of any
nearby colleges to see if they offer a class similar to one I took my
senior year "Entrepreneurship and new Business Planning" but not to take
though. When I took that class the prof divided us up into four or five
teams, four students each and assigned each team to a local small business
that had signed up to get help getting off the ground or expanding in some
way. The scope of what we did covered everything from securing financing
to marketing plans to bookkeeping. For the semester each business in the
program got a four person consultancy team for free.
My little group worked with a local independent finish carpenter (husband
and wife team) to get him setup to move from working more-or-less under
the table to being a fully legit operation that could get loans, bid on
government contracts and pay taxes. We helped them get their books in
order, develop a business and marketing plan, did some market research and
gave them step by step instructions for qualifying for help from the SBA.
Things would've worked out great if they hadn't told us at the end that
they couldn't do most of what we advised because his immigration status
was less than legal and they didn't want to pay taxes in any case. Still
got an A though :)
The other projects the class took on ranged in scope from feasibility
studies to marketing campaigns to complete business plan development from
nothing but an idea. So there would probably be a place for your needs in
a similar class.
If you were an Anchorage I'd go ahead and point you right at my old prof
and say go for it but I don't think that that's where you're located.
However if you can't find any similar programs locally but are still
interested let me know offline (the gmail address is legit) and I'll dig
up Gary's contact information for you, if you came recommended by a former
student he'd probably find a way to help you out.
Cheers,
Josh
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:15:15 -0800, mac davis wrote:
> when it was slow it was bad. then I would have a sale and it
>>would get me behind and then the problems happen.
You're cranking out planes even when orders are slow, correct?
> I need to dump ebay. it helped at first but now it just hurts me.
>I need to get a part time job when work is slow so I don't suffer. (
Ebay is an efficient market. Any product is worth exactly what someone is
willing to pay for it. Ebay is telling you your price point. (I had
guessed that's why you sold there.)
This custom plane biz looks just like the custom software biz. I don't
know the economics term for this, but you're selling your time. Write a
book and then sell it over and over; make a custom item and you sell it
once.
Can you tune planes more efficiently if you have a row of them in front of
you? Do one operation on all of them, then do the next op.
Mr Knight, meet Mr Ford.
Best wishes,
AS
WillR wrote:
> Steve knight wrote:
>=20
>> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
>> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
>> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
>> stuff?
>> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
>> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
>> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
>> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet. Not=20
>> sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
>> something. I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not=20
>> enough. Knight-Toolworks
>> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
>> affordable handmade wooden planes
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Look at the wood show sites. Find the smaller dealers who display and=20
> make a deal.
>=20
>=20
One other point. Do you want to be a craftsman or a manufacturer with=20
employees? If you raise your volume you will change the nature of your=20
business.
Look at guys like the ones you see on my links page. Many of them could=20
sell your products.
However, if you add sales reps or agents, you may find yourself priced=20
out of the market (unless you change your business -- but maybe not). To =
see why, calculate/estimate/determine your minimum income for a=20
reasonable (to you) living. Then do a calculation to determine your=20
required sales volume based on your average margin...
e.g -- you want $40,000 USD a year to live on. You sell your planes at=20
40% GPM -- (A plan costs $60 and Sells for $100 [$60 / (1 - 0.40)] --=20
that is 40% GPM) Then you can use this info to say -- Gee I had to sell=20
a $100,000 worth of planes to make that money. Your dealers will have to =
make their profit margin too. Assuming they sell at 40% GPM -- they will =
sell that plane for $167 -- based on 40% GPM [$166.67 actually)]. (=20
Cost$ / (1-GPM) ) So you work the problem back and forth. Guessing at=20
what they can sell at -- giving them a reasonable margin -- giving=20
yourself one till you can get a number that appeals to your customers,=20
your dealers and yourself.
Of course you may also have to make design changes and product mix=20
changes to satisfy the sales and profitablilty equations -- as in "sell=20
1000 cheap planes or 100 expensive ones" question.
Pretty terse -- but that's it in a nut shell. It is essentially the=20
sales training course for someone who sells on profit margin as opposed=20
to selling only based on the retail price.
Having said all this, your equations change when you add employees -- so =
you may have to contract out parts of your planes to get the volume if=20
you wish to remain a one person shop. Then your suppliers may want=20
volume commitments -- which is pretty tough at the beginning of a=20
manufacturing operation.
Hope this is all clear. If it isn't, you may have a a more significant=20
problem.
If this makes sense and you work the problems through -- and can get=20
some interested parties to sell your planes at a price that works for=20
you and them -- and customers accept the pricing -- then you have a winne=
r.
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
Steve knight wrote:
> Well maybe that's not what I need or I do who knows? (G) what I am
> after is for someone to represent my planes in the various wood shows
> and demos and such. Maybe someone that goes to them and sells other
> stuff?
> I should be doing this like C&W and such but I don't have the time
> the money and I don't much care to travel. Since it is only me who
> would make the planes while I was on the road? The only time I had a
> week off was when I was so sick I could not even walk 20 feet.=20
> Not sure what I could pay for this with planes or a percentage or
> something.=20
> I like selling by word of mouth but sometimes it's not enough.=20
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
Look at the wood show sites. Find the smaller dealers who display and=20
make a deal.
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
I don't think you're as much of an oddball as you might think. I work in the
slot car industry, talk about oddballs....
There are a lot of guys doing similiar things to what you're doing, making
very nice tools and parts for a limited market. The market for expensive
slot car parts is unbelievably small compared to wood working and planes.
Yet it keeps folks employed and making profits.
I think you need to take a hard look at your pricing and figure out how many
planes, marking knives, etc. you need to make in order to live in the style
to which you've become accustomed first. Then once you know that, find
someone to help you sell them. I wouldn't worry about saturating the market.
How many woodworkers out there even know you exist at this point?
I'd try to find someone who would be interested in selling your products on
some sort of consignment basis. You'd need someone who's already selling
something at the woodworking shows most likely.
The classes in marketing would be a good idea too.I think you'd find that
your're not that odd at all...
John Emmons
"Steve knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >One thing you might want to do is check with the business programs of any
> >nearby colleges to see if they offer a class similar to one I took my
> >senior year "Entrepreneurship and new Business Planning" but not to take
> >though. When I took that class the prof divided us up into four or five
> >teams, four students each and assigned each team to a local small
business
> >that had signed up to get help getting off the ground or expanding in
some
> >way. The scope of what we did covered everything from securing financing
> >to marketing plans to bookkeeping. For the semester each business in the
> >program got a four person consultancy team for free.
>
> the biggest problem is I am such a oddball that most of the info does
> not really fit into what I do. I have such a limited scope to sell too
> and tools are a odd thing to make anyway. they don't sell like other
> things do.
> Plus I could saturate the market and then be stuck too.
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
Steve knight wrote:
>>Do you have ads in some of the better woodworking mags? Personally, I =
go=20
>>through that section of FWW and FHB frequently and I think you would ge=
t a=20
>>lot of exposure there.
>=20
>=20
> way too expensive and not super effective to sell planes from. fww
> costs 459.00 for a 1"x2" add. that's about 8 planes to break about
> even or so every month. popular woodworking is far less though. but
> ads never seemed to help me much.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>How about writing an article for FWW describing the plane making proces=
s?=20
>>That would be sure to generate interest (and they pay for the articles=
,=20
>>too).
>=20
>=20
> I could give the info but I sure as hell can't write it. just read my
> posts (G)=20
> Knight-Toolworks
> http://www.knight-toolworks.com
> affordable handmade wooden planes
If you are going to advertise get a copy of "The Art of Writing Copy" by =
Herschel Gordon Lewis. ISBN: 0133871924 =B7 Published by Prentice Hall
There may be a later edition...
Well worth the money.
His main point is write copy that sells. Don't do "awareness=20
advertising". Instead, offer a specific product at specific price, time=20
and place. ...and make the offer clear.
Hope that helps
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=3D978013387192&Catalog=3DBook=
s&Ntt=3DThe+Art+of+Writing+Copy&N=3D35&Lang=3Den&Section=3Dbooks&zxac=3D1=
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw