OT: Southern weather

On Jan 10, 11:12=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Toronto is not well equipped, when it comes to big snow, either, and ha=
s
> > had
> > to call in the military for help.
>
> Toronto has a very large fleet and a well equipped snow clearing program =
and
> like ANY city with a budget for snow clearing, they balance their yearly
> monies allocation mainly on the yearly average snowfall rate from previou=
s
> years. Sometimes, they get caught short, but not often.
>
> And, as far as the military goes, several years ago, the mayor of Toronto=
, a
> boob named Mel Lastman, called the military in to help with snow removal.
> That was ONE time and hasn't been done since.
>
> Nothing like a little bit of mis-information with the addition of some op=
en
> ended information to mess up the flow of facts, eh Josepi?

Is Hoseppi out on a weekend pass again? Has he learned to post like a
human yet?....I take that back... I see that he hasn't.
<plonketyplonketyplonkplonkplonk.>... Didn't need to, I already had,
but it feels nice to be immature sometimes.

Indeed, Lastman's request for military help was an isolated one, and
he did it purely so he wouldn't have serious cost overruns on his
removal budget. Not too stupid, if you ask me... I wonder how that
worked out for him.

All the 16 years I lived in Toronto (Beaches. nice and close to my gig
at RL Hearn Generating Station) I never had an issue with snow... the
Toyota Landcruisers ( a '73 and a '76) helped only a couple of times.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Monopolistic, greedy, anti-competitive outfits get as little
> of my money as I can orchestrate.

Micro breweries it is then <G>

Speaking of such, I hope Molson's is being charge accordingly for their
disruption along their planned route.
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110110/molson-beer-vat-convoy-halton-110110/20110110/?hub=TorontoNewHome

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:59:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> says...
>>> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
>>> South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>>>> you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>>>> preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
>>>> for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
>>>> in a couple of three days.
>>> I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
>>> in snow all the time without worry.
>>>
> ...
>>> In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
>>> snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
>>> is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
>>> on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
>>> are nearly impassible.
>>>
>>> So, the snow is different. It really is. ...
> ...
>> It's funny how many northerners don't realize just how much of the ease
>> with which they travel after a snowfall is the result of the sand trucks
>> and not of the excellence of their driving skills.
> ...
>
> Also, particularly the farther south one is, the more likely that the
> ground is yet warm even though air temperatures drop when it does snow.
> Consequently, rather than the fallen snow staying snow as it does in
> cold climates and therefore actually providing decent traction when
> packed, the combination of relatively warm ground/roads and weight of
> the first vehicles over it causes it to melt and then it becomes the icy
> layer even if there wasn't freezing rain/drizzle first. The snow itself
> isn't any different but the weather and resulting road conditions
> certainly are in general. Terrain as noted is a factor as well; much of
> those lake snow areas is essentially flat; it's hard to find a flat spot
> big enough for the cat in much of the southeast...

Yep,

Last night we ended up getting about 3/4 inch of accumalated sleet,
slick melting mess, I made it into work without any issues but many
didn't. It helps to be among the first on the roads before it really
gets packed.

basilisk

On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 17:53:31 -0800, "Steve B" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
>> I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
>> stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
>> this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
>> bread, milk and batteries. :)
>>
>> basilisk
>
>It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except for
>visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone in a
>couple of three days.

Even us "damn Yankees" know enough to stay off the highways when the rebels
around here try to drive on ice. ;-) ...and they will. :-(

On Jan 10, 11:33=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> =A0As someone
> else has mentioned, all wheel drive doesn't help you steer or stop.

ABS seems to help a bit with steering, and when you have a centre
differential type of AWD, engine braking is helpful in corners....
assuming you have a feel for the car.
One has to be pretty careless to lose control of an Impreza
(specifically the automatic transmission) with a set of Nokian
Hakkapeliitta R's.
Even so, If I were to leave my street full-bore and turn the wheel
hard over while standing on the gas, I WILL end up on somebody's lawn.
(Maybe even the same one..<G>)

On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 17:53:31 -0800, "Steve B"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
>> I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
>> stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
>> this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
>> bread, milk and batteries. :)
>>
>> basilisk
>
>It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except for
>visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone in a
>couple of three days.
>
>Steve
>

Having driven in the South for almost 50 years, I have my list of
things to do if I must be on the road in freezing rain/sleet/snow.

1. Put on the tire chains (I've had chains since the days of my 57
Chevy).
2. Leave early.
3. Know the alternate roads.
4. Slow down.
5. Leave lots more space between you and the car ahead.

I was caught in snow/freezing rain on my way through Mississippi some
years ago and my only option was 4. I eventually caught up with all
the cars that passed me - they were either in the median or in the
ditch. I stopped occasionally to clear the windows and thaw the wiper
blades (McDonald's coffee isn't great, but it's always hot). The trip
took almost twice as long as usual but we arrived safely. As someone
else has mentioned, all wheel drive doesn't help you steer or stop.
This trip was in a front wheel drive Toyota Camry - probably not
anyone's first choice for a bad weather vehicle.

Today I've been outside to measure the snow - 3.5 inches around
midnight, measured a bit less this morning after being melted/weighed
down by the sleet & freezing rain - either amount is less than other
areas around Atlanta. Other than replacing my rain boots Sunday
afternoon, everything we needed for several days of isolation was
already at the house (at least I found the leak in the boots before
the snow started ;-)

John

From: "Robatoy" <[email protected]>
> All the 16 years I lived in Toronto (Beaches. nice and close to my gig
> at RL Hearn Generating Station) I never had an issue with snow... the
> Toyota Landcruisers ( a '73 and a '76) helped only a couple of times.

Well, you're a little out of date. If I remember correctly, about a year
ago, they took some type of public poll and officially named the area, "The
Beach" ~ so public signs and stuff are all uniform. I've always called it
the Beaches and will continue to do so. Aside from spending our money
wherever they please, politicians have nothing better to do than run around
and rename stuff (or sell it off like the Skydome). Screw rogers as far as
I'm concerned. Monopolistic, greedy, anti-competitive outfits get as little
of my money as I can orchestrate.

Upscale wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>When I lived in VT they didn't use *any* sand (it tends to freeze solid).
>>When
>>it gets really cold salt doesn't work, either. Packed snow is easy to
>>drive
>>on, though. Forget ice, no matter where you live.
>
>
> I have to wonder what kind of sand, salt and cold are you referring to? A
> number of times over the years, I've experienced weather in Toronto where
> the temperature has been -20F and that's before the wind chill was been
> factored in. As long as the streets aren't too mushy or clogged with snow,
> salt and sand have worked fine for the most part.
>
>

Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work
well below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps. See:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa120703a.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Upscale wrote:
> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
>>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
>
> I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
> my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as a
> boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
> was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>
>

Probably the fact that even the City if Buffalo tries to emulate
Toronto's snow clearing capabilities and quite often calls on Toronto
for help.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Robatoy wrote:
> On Jan 10, 9:32 am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
>>>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>>
>>I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
>>my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as a
>>boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
>>was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>
>
> I just LOVE those people with their new AWD or 4WD vehicles just
> zooming along in the snow. Yes, better traction and acceleration than
> everybody else...but the idiots do not seem to know that they have no
> advantage when it comes to stopping.
>
> For my kids? No SkidSkool, no keys. The full program.
>
> All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not just
> the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand.... and SLOW
> DOWN!!

Ayup. It seems that it's usually the 4x4's that end up up-side-down in
the ditch.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> One reason that southern weather is always more horrific is because
> CNN world headquarters is in Atlanta.
>
> Same reason the New York weather was a world news event when they
> started having their normal winter storms a week or two ago.
>
Sooo...., this is some kinda retribution, karma, punishment thing???

"dpb" wrote:

> I've certainly seen more than any fair share of vehicles on sides of
> roads, in ditches, etc., in places like Detroit, Cleveland, Denver
> and environs as well as in VA and TN while lived there to know that
> there's no lack of problems in winter conditions irrespective of the
> blowhards who claim to have never been inconvenienced and can on
> their own mush over the Sierra Nevada... :)
------------------------------------------
I'm reminded of 12/26/1989, the day I left Ohio headed for SoCal in a
VW Rabbit, 4 cyl diesel with a 5 speed manual box.

Had built a plywood box on roof racks to carry as much as possible
with me (Think the opening song/scene of the Beverly Hillbillies).

Drove west on US-30 about 30 miles then south on I-71 headed toward
Columbus, Ohio and I-70 west toward St Louis.

Both I-71 & I-70 had very wide grassy medians.

Have never seen so many busses, 18 wheelers and cars in the median
strip of an interstate in my life as that morning.

Spent most of the morning shifting back and forth between 3rd and 4th
gear.

5th gear was out of the question.

It wasn't until some time west of Indianapolis that the weather broke,
it stopped snowing, and the median started to clear.

> Two UHP patrol cars have been struck by inattentive speeding drivers since
> January first on I-15.

Make that THREE since Jan.1, and SEVEN in December!

Steve

-MIKE- wrote:

.
>
> A tangent.....
> I remember one particularly cold "Turkey Bowl." (You fellow
> Northerners probably had the same tradition of playing back yard
> football on Thanksgiving morning.) We got an early preview of
> Winter that year and it was bitter cold, easily below zero.
>
> We were out playing on about 4 inches of fresh snow on top of what had
> fallen and packed a few days before. It was remarkable how good the
> traction was for running and cutting. We all commented on how we
> could move better on that snow than on the damp mushy grass we often
> encountered. Another benefit was the tackling-- felt like playing on
> wrestling mats.

Indeed. Below about 15 degrees F, you can hear the snow cruch under your
feet, your tires, etc. It really does take on a different characteristic.
If you have enough loose snow, you can get a bite at those temperatures.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Yep, sometimes a little more snow is better for the tire to bite into.


"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Yep,

Last night we ended up getting about 3/4 inch of accumalated sleet,
slick melting mess, I made it into work without any issues but many
didn't. It helps to be among the first on the roads before it really
gets packed.

basilisk

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>
>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>
> Not a stretch at all. When it's -20F, or below, packed snow gives a
> lot more traction than gravel or dirt.
>

Define your use of the term "packed snow". If you are referring to
hardpack, then I would certainly disagree. Hardpack does not allow bite from
a tire - it's almost like ice. You need some amount of loose material for
tread to bite. Though, like I said - hardpack is not as slippery as ice.
Not all snow makes good traction and that's why I pointed out that it cannot
universally be stated that snow is equal to or better traction than gravel
or dirt.


>>> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle
>>> of winter.
>>
>> Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of
>> winter. Not even uncommon.
>
> Not in the frozen North.

What is the frozen North?

>
>>> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
>>> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature
>>> is still high, yes, ice can form underneath.
>>
>> Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack
>> develops and more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is
>> slippery but not as slippery as ice. Drivers caught unaware,
>> discover the hardpack and are caught by surprise. Real ice
>> underneath snow cover is not that common.
>
> Nope. Hardpack isn't slippery at all. Ice is, but that's a
> different kettle.

Hardpack is most certainly slippery. I can't believe we are discussing this
point. Agreed that ice is a different matter, but hardpack is most
certainly a slippery surface.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:32:22 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
>> below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
>I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
>my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as a
>boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
>was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?

In VT they use pure salt until it gets too cold for even that to work. Then
they use nothing and drive on the snow. That only happened a couple of times
in the 15 years I lived there.

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/10/11 1:23 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>
>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>>
>
> I'm giving you first hand experience. I didn't say all or most
> snow.... sheesh.

And I'm giving you first hand experience as well. Too bad that mine does
not satifsfy you...

>
>
>>>
>>> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle
>>> of winter.
>>
>> Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of
>> winter. Not even uncommon.
>>
>
> wow, really? Everything, "depends," doesn't it? Very often in
> winter in northern climate, the ground is colder than the air. Of
> course, that "depends."

Sorry I can't give you an absolute you can live by. The fact is that most
things in life do indeed "depend": I'm in the north so why don't you just
go ahead and tell me about how it is up here. That will correct my
misunderstandings of how things are.

>
>
>>> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
>>> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature
>>> is still high, yes, ice can form underneath.
>>
>> Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack
>> develops and more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is
>> slippery but not as slippery as ice. Drivers caught unaware,
>> discover the hardpack and are caught by surprise. Real ice
>> underneath snow cover is not that common.
>
> You don't drive in TN much. It's more common here than not. What
> happens here is that snow falls in the morning, melts in the afternoon
> sun, freezes at sundown, and fresh snow accumulates on top. Completely
> different scenario than up north, but same results. Of
> course, that "depends."
>

I have driven in TN winters and have experienced things that are different
from what we get up north, but you are correct - I do not drive there
*much*. Completely different scenario, but same results? I'm sorry but I
don't get that statement. We don't live with lots of ice on our roads
during our winters. BTW - you don't either. What happens on occassion does
not represent normal for you.

>
>>> But after a few weeks of
>>> continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why
>>> one has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the
>>> north.
>>
>> Except for this damned year. Not enough frost in the ground to rely
>> upon. Digging up a lot of grass this year with the plow.
>>
>
> You just like like to contradict, huh? :-p

Point lost on you.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Except for the big one where Toronto didn't get paid.

I wonder if T.O. got paid in the end or helps out anymore.

Toronto is not well equipped, when it comes to big snow, either, and has had
to call in the military for help.


"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Probably the fact that even the City if Buffalo tries to emulate
Toronto's snow clearing capabilities and quite often calls on Toronto
for help.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
> South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
> > you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
> > preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
> > for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
> > in a couple of three days.
>
> I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
> in snow all the time without worry.
>
> I moved South, and also laughed at how everyone panics with a little snow.
> Then in about year three, I had a lesson presented to me that made me
> understand why it is as it is.
>
> I had to stop on a little hill at an intersection, with a slope of a little
> more than 1/2" per foot rise. I was only barely able to get moving again.
>
> In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
> snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
> is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
> on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
> are nearly impassible.
>
> So, the snow is different. It really is. Also, another factor around here
> is that the country roads have no guard rails protecting a 50 foot or more
> plunge, if you slide off a corner. The lawyer mentality keeps schools from
> sending out students in busses on those type of roads if they are slick..

It's funny how many northerners don't realize just how much of the ease
with which they travel after a snowfall is the result of the sand trucks
and not of the excellence of their driving skills.

When I was at Georgia Tech there was an ice storm, and my GF was stuck
at work. I went to get her, got a block, said "screw this" went back to
the apartment, and dug out my studded snow tires from when I went to
OSU, put them on and went to pick her up.

I came to an intersection. A guy on the cross street creeps up to a
stop sign at the top of a hill, tries to stop, can't, coasts through the
intersection and on to the downhill side, and once he's going downhill
the only way he's going to stop before he gets to the bottom is with
rocket assist. Well, a minute later another guy did the same thing.
And by the time the traffic cleared enough for me to go through the
intersection there were IIRC seven cars piled up at the bottom of the
hill. I walked down on the shoulder (no way I was going to put the car
on that hill and get it creamed by the next guy who came down) and made
sure nobody was hurt then went on, picked up the GF, and called the cops
to go rescue the folks at the bottom of the hill (this was before cell
phones).

Seriously, in the South if it snows and you don't have studs, the best
thing to do is stay home.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> > >>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
> > >>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
> >
> > > I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis
> > > of
> > > my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was
> > > as a
> > > boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse
> > > as
> > > was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>
> My late father-in-law was one wild guy. Once, in southern Louisiana, he had
> to come back from working offshore, driving from Venice, Louisiana to
> Lafayette, Louisiana after things were seriously iced up. In Baton Rouge,
> as well as along the way, there are high arching bridges in the Interstate.
> He would just get a run at them, then at the top, put it into reverse, and
> apply a little gas to spin the tires backwards and keep in a straight line.

He was lucky. The surest way to spin is to break _rear_ traction, which
is "put it in reverse" does.

> There are a lot of things one can do in bad weather, but some of them do not
> occur to most folks.
>
> My late father-in-law was a legend on doing things outside the envelope.

How did he become "late"?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:18:21 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >>>
> >>> All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not
> >>> just the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand....
> >>> and SLOW DOWN!!
> >>
> >> There is a lot more damage if they don't use it.
> >
> > Not if idiots would slow down and drive according to the conditions.
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Mike-
>
> Two UHP patrol cars have been struck by inattentive speeding drivers since
> January first on I-15.
>
> Just how the F do you hit a cop car out of all the cars there are there? We
> have the "one over law" which, by observations, very few people have ever
> heard of.

What the Hell is the "one over law"? The only reference I can find to
such a law refers to the size of fish one can catch and keep.

> If there was only some way to keep idiots from driving. I see people all
> the time I just want to walk up to and punch them through their window.
> Females included. Texters. Cell phone users. Women doing makeup while
> driving. People who follow too close, cut you off, or cut into a long line.
> You know the idiots I speak of.

There should be a law that says "victim was using a cell phone while
driving is an affirmative defense for any act of violence, as long as
the only victim was the person using the cell phone while driving".

> Oops, sorry, you might be one of those idiots.
>
> Steve

Steve B wrote:
>
> It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But
> when you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or
> so, there's no preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows
> what to do except for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well,
> it's thawed and gone in a couple of three days.
>

Yep. It snows about a quarter-inch here in Houston every ten years or so.
People stock up on canned goods, the freeways, schools, and airport are shut
down, people huddle in their family rooms and pray, church pews fill up,
children scrape the snow off of car hoods, make six-inch tall snowmen and
call them good. The city flings sand on the streets, along with ashes,
sawdust, corn stalks, sheets of plywood, and anything else it can find. The
mayor has a press conference every thirty minutes to remind residents to
tune in CONELRAD on their AM radios.

On the other hand, as soon as a hurricane enters the Gulf, visitors from the
northern climes look down and say: "Feet! Make tracks!" Natives stock up on
beer and Strawberry PopTarts in anticipation of all the block parties.

Since you confirmed what I posted I am glad you demonstrated the "shit-for
brains" syndrome, eh Upscale?



"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Toronto has a very large fleet and a well equipped snow clearing program and
like ANY city with a budget for snow clearing, they balance their yearly
monies allocation mainly on the yearly average snowfall rate from previous
years. Sometimes, they get caught short, but not often.

And, as far as the military goes, several years ago, the mayor of Toronto, a
boob named Mel Lastman, called the military in to help with snow removal.
That was ONE time and hasn't been done since.

Nothing like a little bit of mis-information with the addition of some open
ended information to mess up the flow of facts, eh Josepi?



"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Toronto is not well equipped, when it comes to big snow, either, and has
> had
> to call in the military for help.

"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
> you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
> preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
> for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
> in a couple of three days.

I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
in snow all the time without worry.

I moved South, and also laughed at how everyone panics with a little snow.
Then in about year three, I had a lesson presented to me that made me
understand why it is as it is.

I had to stop on a little hill at an intersection, with a slope of a little
more than 1/2" per foot rise. I was only barely able to get moving again.

In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
are nearly impassible.

So, the snow is different. It really is. Also, another factor around here
is that the country roads have no guard rails protecting a 50 foot or more
plunge, if you slide off a corner. The lawyer mentality keeps schools from
sending out students in busses on those type of roads if they are slick..
--
Jim in NC

There are some clueless drivers that are fun to laugh at when it snows,
though! <g>

<[email protected]> wrote in message
> When I lived in VT they didn't use *any* sand (it tends to freeze solid).
> When
> it gets really cold salt doesn't work, either. Packed snow is easy to
> drive
> on, though. Forget ice, no matter where you live.

I have to wonder what kind of sand, salt and cold are you referring to? A
number of times over the years, I've experienced weather in Toronto where
the temperature has been -20F and that's before the wind chill was been
factored in. As long as the streets aren't too mushy or clogged with snow,
salt and sand have worked fine for the most part.

On Jan 10, 8:34=A0pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Monopolistic, greedy, anti-competitive outfits get as little
> of my money as I can orchestrate.

Micro breweries it is then <G>

On Jan 9, 7:46=A0pm, basilisk <[email protected]> wrote:
> The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
> I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
> stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
> this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
> bread, milk and batteries. :)
>

One reason that southern weather is always more horrific is because
CNN world headquarters is in Atlanta.

Same reason the New York weather was a world news event when they
started having their normal winter storms a week or two ago.

RonB

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:18:21 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>>
>> All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not
>> just the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand....
>> and SLOW DOWN!!
>
> There is a lot more damage if they don't use it.

Not if idiots would slow down and drive according to the conditions.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote

> What the Hell is the "one over law"? The only reference I can find to
> such a law refers to the size of fish one can catch and keep.

It is a law started in California, IIRC, that states that whenever a vehicle
is on the shoulder, be it a motorist, an emergency vehicle, a law
enforcement vehicle, highway maintenance, or most anything, that the
approaching vehicle MUST move one lane to the left wherever possible and
safe to do so in order to overtake the scene. Usually left to the
discretion of the witnessing officer to enforce unless a collision is
involved.

Steve

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a1c8644a-3cc4-4c8a-851a-64c88e54b46e@v17g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 10, 8:34 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Monopolistic, greedy, anti-competitive outfits get as little
> of my money as I can orchestrate.

Micro breweries it is then <G>

Home brew!

Steve

On Jan 10, 9:32=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Salt lowers the freezing point of water. =A0In general it doesn't work =
well
> > below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
> I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis o=
f
> my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was a=
s a
> boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
> was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?

I just LOVE those people with their new AWD or 4WD vehicles just
zooming along in the snow. Yes, better traction and acceleration than
everybody else...but the idiots do not seem to know that they have no
advantage when it comes to stopping.

For my kids? No SkidSkool, no keys. The full program.

All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not just
the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand.... and SLOW
DOWN!!

"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Toronto is not well equipped, when it comes to big snow, either, and has
> had
> to call in the military for help.

Toronto has a very large fleet and a well equipped snow clearing program and
like ANY city with a budget for snow clearing, they balance their yearly
monies allocation mainly on the yearly average snowfall rate from previous
years. Sometimes, they get caught short, but not often.

And, as far as the military goes, several years ago, the mayor of Toronto, a
boob named Mel Lastman, called the military in to help with snow removal.
That was ONE time and hasn't been done since.

Nothing like a little bit of mis-information with the addition of some open
ended information to mess up the flow of facts, eh Josepi?

Nahmie wrote:
>
> All the years we lived in Jamestown, NY area, always got where I "had
> to" go, with no 4WD, rarely chains. Good mud/snow treads & extra
> weight in the trunk. My main "problem" is 4WD idiots. They think
> they're bulletproof. I've also seen people with 2WD and experience
> walk right artound 4WD who didn't know how to drive. SWMBO says for me
> to stay home here in TX with our 1 1/2" of snow. She's not worried
> about me getting wherever & back, just what some other idiot will do.
> Filled backup 30lb. bottle for the trailer on Fri. and we're just
> staying cozy. Propane staytion is only about 1/4mi. from us, we've got
> enough groceries unless it decides to stick around a couple more days,
> so we're good.

So - when you left Jamestown, they had to do that Congressional
redistrictioning thing, because of the population shift, huh? But - you're
dead on. Good M&S and a dose of sensibility, and winter is just another 8
months out of a year.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> > >>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work
>> > >>well
>> > >>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>> >
>> > > I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the
>> > > basis
>> > > of
>> > > my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time
>> > > was
>> > > as a
>> > > boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or
>> > > worse
>> > > as
>> > > was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>>
>> My late father-in-law was one wild guy. Once, in southern Louisiana, he
>> had
>> to come back from working offshore, driving from Venice, Louisiana to
>> Lafayette, Louisiana after things were seriously iced up. In Baton
>> Rouge,
>> as well as along the way, there are high arching bridges in the
>> Interstate.
>> He would just get a run at them, then at the top, put it into reverse,
>> and
>> apply a little gas to spin the tires backwards and keep in a straight
>> line.
>
> He was lucky. The surest way to spin is to break _rear_ traction, which
> is "put it in reverse" does.
>
>> There are a lot of things one can do in bad weather, but some of them do
>> not
>> occur to most folks.
>>
>> My late father-in-law was a legend on doing things outside the envelope.
>
> How did he become "late"?

He died in his sleep, not kicking and screaming like the passengers in his
car.

No, he just wore out. He died of old age complications.

Steve

On Jan 10, 9:10=A0am, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
> > "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. =A0In general it doesn't work =
well
> >>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
> > I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis=
of
> > my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was=
as a
> > boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse =
as
> > was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>
> Probably the fact that even the City if Buffalo tries to emulate
> Toronto's snow clearing capabilities and quite often calls on Toronto
> for help.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]

All the years we lived in Jamestown, NY area, always got where I "had
to" go, with no 4WD, rarely chains. Good mud/snow treads & extra
weight in the trunk. My main "problem" is 4WD idiots. They think
they're bulletproof. I've also seen people with 2WD and experience
walk right artound 4WD who didn't know how to drive. SWMBO says for me
to stay home here in TX with our 1 1/2" of snow. She's not worried
about me getting wherever & back, just what some other idiot will do.
Filled backup 30lb. bottle for the trailer on Fri. and we're just
staying cozy. Propane staytion is only about 1/4mi. from us, we've got
enough groceries unless it decides to stick around a couple more days,
so we're good.

Speaking of cinders, Jamestown used cinders for many years until they
upgraded coal electric plant so now all they have is "fly ash", which
is totally useless.

Norm

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff to
> which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
> traction than many gravel roads.

Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as good as or
better than many gravel roads.

>
> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle of
> winter.

Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of winter.
Not even uncommon.

> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature is
> still high, yes, ice can form underneath.

Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack develops and
more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is slippery but not as slippery
as ice. Drivers caught unaware, discover the hardpack and are caught by
surprise. Real ice underneath snow cover is not that common.

> But after a few weeks of
> continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why
> one has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the
> north.


Except for this damned year. Not enough frost in the ground to rely upon.
Digging up a lot of grass this year with the plow.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Besides the icy roads, our Louisiana idiots also try to drive with
bald tires.... going for more beer, I suppose.

Sonny

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/10/11 2:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> .
>>>
>>> A tangent.....
>>> I remember one particularly cold "Turkey Bowl." (You fellow
>>> Northerners probably had the same tradition of playing back yard
>>> football on Thanksgiving morning.) We got an early preview of
>>> Winter that year and it was bitter cold, easily below zero.
>>>
>>> We were out playing on about 4 inches of fresh snow on top of what
>>> had fallen and packed a few days before. It was remarkable how
>>> good the traction was for running and cutting. We all commented on
>>> how we could move better on that snow than on the damp mushy grass
>>> we often encountered. Another benefit was the tackling-- felt like
>>> playing on wrestling mats.
>>
>> Indeed. Below about 15 degrees F, you can hear the snow cruch under
>> your feet, your tires, etc. It really does take on a different
>> characteristic. If you have enough loose snow, you can get a bite at
>> those temperatures.
>
> *Now* you're being rational and not nit picking?

Mike - if you have a problem with me - take it to email. I'm sure it's
nothing we can't resolve, but I have no idea what your issue is right now.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> Bottom line is that I and another poster offered our personal
> experience of driving on snow that offered pretty good traction and
> you just couldn't accept it.

Actually - I took exception to the statement that driving on any kind of
snow provides better traction than sand or gravel.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/10/11 2:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/10/11 1:23 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>>>
>>>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>>>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm giving you first hand experience. I didn't say all or most
>>> snow.... sheesh.
>>
>> And I'm giving you first hand experience as well. Too bad that mine
>> does not satifsfy you...
>>
>
> Nice. Good attempt at turning it around to me.
> Read again... you're the one who wasn't satisfied with my experience.

Well - perhaps I misread your statements, and I don't care to make so much
of this as to go back and try to re-quote everything that was said. I did
not turn anything around on you though. I simply used your very technique.
You stated that you referenced first hand experience, and I did the same.
You call that turning it back on you. Persecution complex?

>>
>> I have driven in TN winters and have experienced things that are
>> different from what we get up north, but you are correct - I do not
>> drive there *much*. Completely different scenario, but same
>> results? I'm sorry but I don't get that statement. We don't live
>> with lots of ice on our roads during our winters. BTW - you don't
>> either. What happens on occassion does not represent normal for you.
>>
>
> Show me where I said it does.

No - I'm not interested in taking this to that level of "you said, I
said...". You can re-read the thread and if you feel the need to point out
an error on my part, I'm willing to step up to it. I though, have no real
interest in building an arguement between us.

>>
>
> No, I think you just like to go around saying, "well, that depends" to
> something someone else said that obviously, to everyone else reading,
> "depends" on the very circumstances put forth by that person.

Huh?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:25:46 -0600, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steve B wrote:
>>
>> It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But
>> when you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or
>> so, there's no preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows
>> what to do except for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well,
>> it's thawed and gone in a couple of three days.
>>
>
>Yep. It snows about a quarter-inch here in Houston every ten years or so.
>People stock up on canned goods, the freeways, schools, and airport are shut
>down, people huddle in their family rooms and pray, church pews fill up,
>children scrape the snow off of car hoods, make six-inch tall snowmen and
>call them good. The city flings sand on the streets, along with ashes,
>sawdust, corn stalks, sheets of plywood, and anything else it can find. The
>mayor has a press conference every thirty minutes to remind residents to
>tune in CONELRAD on their AM radios.

CONELRAD? I suppose it would be a perfect time for those wily Rooskies to
attack!

>On the other hand, as soon as a hurricane enters the Gulf, visitors from the
>northern climes look down and say: "Feet! Make tracks!" Natives stock up on
>beer and Strawberry PopTarts in anticipation of all the block parties.

Given that I'm a carpetbagger here, count me in with the "Make tracks" crowd.
I can always buy beer and PopTarts and have a party somewhere else.

On Jan 10, 11:46=A0am, RonB <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 9, 7:46=A0pm, basilisk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
> > I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
> > stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
> > this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
> > bread, milk and batteries. :)
>
> One reason that southern weather is always more horrific is because
> CNN world headquarters is in Atlanta.
>
> Same reason the New York weather was a world news event when they
> started having their normal winter storms a week or two ago.
>
> RonB

True, true, true.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:46:20 GMT, basilisk <[email protected]> wrote:

>The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
>I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
>stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
>this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
>bread, milk and batteries. :)

My employer has already called tomorrow and my wife's has delayed opening
until 11:00. Last year when this happened, like a fool, I showed up without
calling the phonemail system first. Like last year, not as much as a drop of
rain has fallen and it's 36F (up two degrees since noon).

Yeah, I saw the same loony mentality when I lived in NY (less so in VT). Don't
these people have enough bread, beer, and batteries to last one day? At least
they have some reason to worry here. They've never seen the stuff. ;-) One
of the Montgomery "hawk show toasts" has the "Live in Fear Doppler Radar" for
such events. He was warning of the coming calamity Friday during the evening
drive.

"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
> I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
> stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
> this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
> bread, milk and batteries. :)
>
> basilisk

It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except for
visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone in a
couple of three days.

Steve

Steve B wrote:

>
> "basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> The threat of icy weather has already shutdown the south.
>> I was in Tuscaloosa about 3:00pm and they were already
>> stores closing up shop(even blue borg at 4:30),apparently
>> this was to give the employees a chance to join the run on
>> bread, milk and batteries. :)
>>
>> basilisk
>
> It always amazes me how the South is absolutely shut down by snow. But
> when you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so,
> there's no preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to
> do except for
> visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone in a
> couple of three days.
>
> Steve
I recall a few weeks ago the largest City in the US in the Northeast shut
down for almost a week. Never remember these problems when I was a kid
living in NJ and getting tons of snow. Maybe it has something to do with
folks not doing their jobs. Also remember living in Georgetown, Co. getting
30 inches a night, (not uncommon) and having to drive to the Ski area where
I worked so we could get the parking lots cleared before the morning rush of
skiers. Think everyone has turned to PUSSY'S


--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

Upscale wrote:

>
> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
>> below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
> I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
> my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as
> a boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse
> as was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?

All I know is what that salt does to an auto or use to do since I havent
lived in an area that uses it anymore. In Colo they use to use cinder don't
remember them using much salt. When living in NJ salt was the only thing
used and I remember cars with rusted holes the size of basketballs. Living
in Southern Ca. the sun keeps the roads clear.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
>> South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>>> you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>>> preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
>>> for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
>>> in a couple of three days.
>> I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
>> in snow all the time without worry.
>>
...
>> In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
>> snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
>> is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
>> on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
>> are nearly impassible.
>>
>> So, the snow is different. It really is. ...
...
> It's funny how many northerners don't realize just how much of the ease
> with which they travel after a snowfall is the result of the sand trucks
> and not of the excellence of their driving skills.
...

Also, particularly the farther south one is, the more likely that the
ground is yet warm even though air temperatures drop when it does snow.
Consequently, rather than the fallen snow staying snow as it does in
cold climates and therefore actually providing decent traction when
packed, the combination of relatively warm ground/roads and weight of
the first vehicles over it causes it to melt and then it becomes the icy
layer even if there wasn't freezing rain/drizzle first. The snow itself
isn't any different but the weather and resulting road conditions
certainly are in general. Terrain as noted is a factor as well; much of
those lake snow areas is essentially flat; it's hard to find a flat spot
big enough for the cat in much of the southeast...

On 1/10/11 9:16 AM, Josepi wrote:
> Different snow?....buloney! The pavement is warm under the first snow and
> makes it a bit icy underneath...the worst combination of surprise.
>

"Buloney?" I guess you'd have a good nose for it, huh?

There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff to
which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better traction
than many gravel roads.

The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle of
winter. If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed up
the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature is
still high, yes, ice can form underneath. But after a few weeks of
continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why one
has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the north.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Josepi wrote:
> Yep, sometimes a little more snow is better for the tire to bite into.
...
Only if it _STAYS_ snow...

It's somewhat of an anomaly but that the weather isn't as severe as that
up north, it is that very thing that can make for far worse driving
conditions. Compound that w/ the lack of removal equipment, etc., etc.,
etc., ... and it's not at all surprising it causes such havoc.

I've certainly seen more than any fair share of vehicles on sides of
roads, in ditches, etc., in places like Detroit, Cleveland, Denver and
environs as well as in VA and TN while lived there to know that there's
no lack of problems in winter conditions irrespective of the blowhards
who claim to have never been inconvenienced and can on their own mush
over the Sierra Nevada... :)

At the moment we're getting a dusting out of the promised near-blizzard
conditions two-day snow...a last little push as the system moves east;
the sky is lightening noticeably so when this is the "wring out" as the
drier air encroaches. Didn't need blizzard but surely could have used
some real moisture on the winter wheat that's in very poor
condition...this won't amount to a tenth of an inch in moisture when
all's said and done... :(

Further N and E had decent accumulations I hear but as so often the case
didn't make it far enough south west enough...

--

On 1/10/11 9:18 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> I just LOVE those people with their new AWD or 4WD vehicles just
> zooming along in the snow. Yes, better traction and acceleration
> than everybody else...but the idiots do not seem to know that they
> have no advantage when it comes to stopping.
>

Hopefully this isn't picking nits, but AWD and 4x4 do help you slow
down... assuming you already know how to drive in snow.

Those of us who learned to drive in snow (literally, like when they used
to require drivers' education to get a license) were taught to down
shift to slow down to keep the wheels from locking up... even with an
automatic trans. If you have engine power going to all wheels, then
engine braking is also applied to those wheels and it does help. It
helps with braking and with fishtailing.

Of course, we were also taught those other safe snow driving habits
like, going slower and leaving more room between cars. And of course,
ice is ice and renders all knowledge and skill useless. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 1:23 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff to
>> which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>> traction than many gravel roads.
>
> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as good as or
> better than many gravel roads.
>

I'm giving you first hand experience. I didn't say all or most snow....
sheesh.


>>
>> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle of
>> winter.
>
> Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of winter.
> Not even uncommon.
>

wow, really? Everything, "depends," doesn't it? Very often in winter
in northern climate, the ground is colder than the air. Of course, that
"depends."


>> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
>> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature is
>> still high, yes, ice can form underneath.
>
> Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack develops and
> more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is slippery but not as slippery
> as ice. Drivers caught unaware, discover the hardpack and are caught by
> surprise. Real ice underneath snow cover is not that common.
>

You don't drive in TN much. It's more common here than not. What
happens here is that snow falls in the morning, melts in the afternoon
sun, freezes at sundown, and fresh snow accumulates on top. Completely
different scenario than up north, but same results. Of course, that
"depends."


>> But after a few weeks of
>> continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why
>> one has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the
>> north.
>
> Except for this damned year. Not enough frost in the ground to rely upon.
> Digging up a lot of grass this year with the plow.
>

You just like like to contradict, huh? :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 1:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff to
>>> which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>
>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as good as or
>> better than many gravel roads.
>
> Not a stretch at all. When it's -20F, or below, packed snow gives a lot more
> traction than gravel or dirt.
>

I wasn't even considering temps that cold, but you are certainly correct.
When it's that cold, it's as if the snow *can't* melt in the first place
to refreeze into ice or slush.

A tangent.....
I remember one particularly cold "Turkey Bowl." (You fellow Northerners
probably had the same tradition of playing back yard football on
Thanksgiving morning.) We got an early preview of Winter that year and
it was bitter cold, easily below zero.

We were out playing on about 4 inches of fresh snow on top of what had
fallen and packed a few days before. It was remarkable how good the
traction was for running and cutting. We all commented on how we could
move better on that snow than on the damp mushy grass we often
encountered. Another benefit was the tackling-- felt like playing on
wrestling mats.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 2:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/10/11 1:23 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>>
>>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>>>
>>
>> I'm giving you first hand experience. I didn't say all or most
>> snow.... sheesh.
>
> And I'm giving you first hand experience as well. Too bad that mine does
> not satifsfy you...
>

Nice. Good attempt at turning it around to me.
Read again... you're the one who wasn't satisfied with my experience.


>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle
>>>> of winter.
>>>
>>> Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of
>>> winter. Not even uncommon.
>>>
>>
>> wow, really? Everything, "depends," doesn't it? Very often in
>> winter in northern climate, the ground is colder than the air. Of
>> course, that "depends."
>
> Sorry I can't give you an absolute you can live by. The fact is that most
> things in life do indeed "depend": I'm in the north so why don't you just
> go ahead and tell me about how it is up here. That will correct my
> misunderstandings of how things are.
>

>>
>>
>>>> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
>>>> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature
>>>> is still high, yes, ice can form underneath.
>>>
>>> Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack
>>> develops and more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is
>>> slippery but not as slippery as ice. Drivers caught unaware,
>>> discover the hardpack and are caught by surprise. Real ice
>>> underneath snow cover is not that common.
>>
>> You don't drive in TN much. It's more common here than not. What
>> happens here is that snow falls in the morning, melts in the afternoon
>> sun, freezes at sundown, and fresh snow accumulates on top. Completely
>> different scenario than up north, but same results. Of
>> course, that "depends."
>>
>
> I have driven in TN winters and have experienced things that are different
> from what we get up north, but you are correct - I do not drive there
> *much*. Completely different scenario, but same results? I'm sorry but I
> don't get that statement. We don't live with lots of ice on our roads
> during our winters. BTW - you don't either. What happens on occassion does
> not represent normal for you.
>

Show me where I said it does.


>>
>>>> But after a few weeks of
>>>> continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why
>>>> one has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the
>>>> north.
>>>
>>> Except for this damned year. Not enough frost in the ground to rely
>>> upon. Digging up a lot of grass this year with the plow.
>>>
>>
>> You just like like to contradict, huh? :-p
>
> Point lost on you.
>

No, I think you just like to go around saying, "well, that depends" to
something someone else said that obviously, to everyone else reading,
"depends" on the very circumstances put forth by that person.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>>
>>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>>
>> Not a stretch at all. When it's -20F, or below, packed snow gives a
>> lot more traction than gravel or dirt.
>>
>
> Define your use of the term "packed snow". If you are referring to
> hardpack, then I would certainly disagree. Hardpack does not allow bite from
> a tire - it's almost like ice. You need some amount of loose material for
> tread to bite. Though, like I said - hardpack is not as slippery as ice.
> Not all snow makes good traction and that's why I pointed out that it cannot
> universally be stated that snow is equal to or better traction than gravel
> or dirt.
>

Can you not just accept the fact that some of us have experienced
situations in which snow is really easy to drive on?
Neither of us said it always is.

I would argue that when I grew up in Cleveland, it often was, but that's
not the point.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 2:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
> .
>>
>> A tangent.....
>> I remember one particularly cold "Turkey Bowl." (You fellow
>> Northerners probably had the same tradition of playing back yard
>> football on Thanksgiving morning.) We got an early preview of
>> Winter that year and it was bitter cold, easily below zero.
>>
>> We were out playing on about 4 inches of fresh snow on top of what had
>> fallen and packed a few days before. It was remarkable how good the
>> traction was for running and cutting. We all commented on how we
>> could move better on that snow than on the damp mushy grass we often
>> encountered. Another benefit was the tackling-- felt like playing on
>> wrestling mats.
>
> Indeed. Below about 15 degrees F, you can hear the snow cruch under your
> feet, your tires, etc. It really does take on a different characteristic.
> If you have enough loose snow, you can get a bite at those temperatures.
>

*Now* you're being rational and not nit picking?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/2011 7:51 PM, Upscale wrote:
> "Robatoy"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Monopolistic, greedy, anti-competitive outfits get as little
>> of my money as I can orchestrate.
>
> Micro breweries it is then<G>
>
> Speaking of such, I hope Molson's is being charge accordingly for their
> disruption along their planned route.
> http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110110/molson-beer-vat-convoy-halton-110110/20110110/?hub=TorontoNewHome

Six huge vats with a capacity of six million bottles each. Damn, that's a LOT
of mediocre beer!

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 1/10/11 9:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/10/11 2:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/11 1:23 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff
>>>>>> to which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>>>>>> traction than many gravel roads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as
>>>>> good as or better than many gravel roads.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm giving you first hand experience. I didn't say all or most
>>>> snow.... sheesh.
>>>
>>> And I'm giving you first hand experience as well. Too bad that mine
>>> does not satifsfy you...
>>>
>>
>> Nice. Good attempt at turning it around to me.
>> Read again... you're the one who wasn't satisfied with my experience.
>
> Well - perhaps I misread your statements, and I don't care to make so much
> of this as to go back and try to re-quote everything that was said. I did
> not turn anything around on you though. I simply used your very technique.
> You stated that you referenced first hand experience, and I did the same.
> You call that turning it back on you. Persecution complex?
>

Bottom line is that I and another poster offered our personal experience
of driving on snow that offered pretty good traction and you just
couldn't accept it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 9:49 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/10/11 2:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> A tangent.....
>>>> I remember one particularly cold "Turkey Bowl." (You fellow
>>>> Northerners probably had the same tradition of playing back yard
>>>> football on Thanksgiving morning.) We got an early preview of
>>>> Winter that year and it was bitter cold, easily below zero.
>>>>
>>>> We were out playing on about 4 inches of fresh snow on top of what
>>>> had fallen and packed a few days before. It was remarkable how
>>>> good the traction was for running and cutting. We all commented on
>>>> how we could move better on that snow than on the damp mushy grass
>>>> we often encountered. Another benefit was the tackling-- felt like
>>>> playing on wrestling mats.
>>>
>>> Indeed. Below about 15 degrees F, you can hear the snow cruch under
>>> your feet, your tires, etc. It really does take on a different
>>> characteristic. If you have enough loose snow, you can get a bite at
>>> those temperatures.
>>
>> *Now* you're being rational and not nit picking?
>
> Mike - if you have a problem with me - take it to email. I'm sure it's
> nothing we can't resolve, but I have no idea what your issue is right now.
>

I'm just wondering why you're not "depends-ing" the crap out of this post.
This is the same type of snow I and the other guy were talking about
driving on and you accept it in this post and not the other.

Whatever, maybe we were both reading too fast and misunderstood each other.

peace.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/10/11 10:41 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> Bottom line is that I and another poster offered our personal
>> experience of driving on snow that offered pretty good traction and
>> you just couldn't accept it.
>
> Actually - I took exception to the statement that driving on any kind of
> snow provides better traction than sand or gravel.
>

"The soft, packed stuff to which he referred is easy to drive on and has
as good or better traction than many gravel roads."

I took specially attention to add a qualifier (many), because I knew
someone would come in here and say what you did, implying that I think
ALL gravel gives you better traction than ALL snow, PERIOD.

I stand by my statement. I have driven, very often, on many gravel
roads-- specifically the foothills of southeast Ohio-- which are
generally very loose because they are always throwing down new stone due
to washout.

I remember discussing it with my neighbor after we both arrived home
from work after having driven down one of these roads, together. The
road was deeply covered in they very type of snow to which I and some
other posters have referred. We both were laughing about how we drove
faster and had better control in that snow than we did most days the
previous week.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

> >>Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
> >>below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>
> > I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis
> > of
> > my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was
> > as a
> > boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse
> > as
> > was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?

My late father-in-law was one wild guy. Once, in southern Louisiana, he had
to come back from working offshore, driving from Venice, Louisiana to
Lafayette, Louisiana after things were seriously iced up. In Baton Rouge,
as well as along the way, there are high arching bridges in the Interstate.
He would just get a run at them, then at the top, put it into reverse, and
apply a little gas to spin the tires backwards and keep in a straight line.

There are a lot of things one can do in bad weather, but some of them do not
occur to most folks.

My late father-in-law was a legend on doing things outside the envelope.

Steve

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:18:21 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not
>>> just the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand....
>>> and SLOW DOWN!!
>>
>> There is a lot more damage if they don't use it.
>
> Not if idiots would slow down and drive according to the conditions.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-

Two UHP patrol cars have been struck by inattentive speeding drivers since
January first on I-15.

Just how the F do you hit a cop car out of all the cars there are there? We
have the "one over law" which, by observations, very few people have ever
heard of.

If there was only some way to keep idiots from driving. I see people all
the time I just want to walk up to and punch them through their window.
Females included. Texters. Cell phone users. Women doing makeup while
driving. People who follow too close, cut you off, or cut into a long line.
You know the idiots I speak of.

Oops, sorry, you might be one of those idiots.

Steve

On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 23:44:02 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says...
>>
>> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
>> South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>> > you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>> > preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
>> > for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
>> > in a couple of three days.
>>
>> I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
>> in snow all the time without worry.
>>
>> I moved South, and also laughed at how everyone panics with a little snow.
>> Then in about year three, I had a lesson presented to me that made me
>> understand why it is as it is.
>>
>> I had to stop on a little hill at an intersection, with a slope of a little
>> more than 1/2" per foot rise. I was only barely able to get moving again.
>>
>> In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
>> snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
>> is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
>> on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
>> are nearly impassible.
>>
>> So, the snow is different. It really is. Also, another factor around here
>> is that the country roads have no guard rails protecting a 50 foot or more
>> plunge, if you slide off a corner. The lawyer mentality keeps schools from
>> sending out students in busses on those type of roads if they are slick..
>
>It's funny how many northerners don't realize just how much of the ease
>with which they travel after a snowfall is the result of the sand trucks
>and not of the excellence of their driving skills.

When I lived in VT they didn't use *any* sand (it tends to freeze solid). When
it gets really cold salt doesn't work, either. Packed snow is easy to drive
on, though. Forget ice, no matter where you live.

>When I was at Georgia Tech there was an ice storm, and my GF was stuck
>at work. I went to get her, got a block, said "screw this" went back to
>the apartment, and dug out my studded snow tires from when I went to
>OSU, put them on and went to pick her up.

...and they're banned in a lot of Northern states. I didn't like them because
my car would skid all over on wet pavement.

>I came to an intersection. A guy on the cross street creeps up to a
>stop sign at the top of a hill, tries to stop, can't, coasts through the
>intersection and on to the downhill side, and once he's going downhill
>the only way he's going to stop before he gets to the bottom is with
>rocket assist.

An immovable object works.

>Well, a minute later another guy did the same thing.
>And by the time the traffic cleared enough for me to go through the
>intersection there were IIRC seven cars piled up at the bottom of the
>hill. I walked down on the shoulder (no way I was going to put the car
>on that hill and get it creamed by the next guy who came down) and made
>sure nobody was hurt then went on, picked up the GF, and called the cops
>to go rescue the folks at the bottom of the hill (this was before cell
>phones).
>
>Seriously, in the South if it snows and you don't have studs, the best
>thing to do is stay home.

Even if you do, stay home.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:41:33 -0600, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep. It snows about a quarter-inch here in Houston every ten years
>>> or so. People stock up on canned goods, the freeways, schools, and
>>> airport are shut down, people huddle in their family rooms and pray,
>>> church pews fill up, children scrape the snow off of car hoods, make
>>> six-inch tall snowmen and call them good. The city flings sand on
>>> the streets, along with ashes, sawdust, corn stalks, sheets of
>>> plywood, and anything else it can find. The mayor has a press
>>> conference every thirty minutes to remind residents to tune in
>>> CONELRAD on their AM radios.
>>
>> CONELRAD? I suppose it would be a perfect time for those wily
>> Rooskies to attack!
>>
>>> On the other hand, as soon as a hurricane enters the Gulf, visitors
>>> from the northern climes look down and say: "Feet! Make tracks!"
>>> Natives stock up on beer and Strawberry PopTarts in anticipation of
>>> all the block parties.
>>
>> Given that I'm a carpetbagger here, count me in with the "Make
>> tracks" crowd. I can always buy beer and PopTarts and have a party
>> somewhere else.
>
>Aw, you'll get tired of that shit after a while. Besides, there ain't
>nothing like seeing a trash can sail by at seventy miles an hour! If you
>consume enough beer, you can make a swell game of it - much like a bull
>fight.

I'd never dream of taking the experience away from the natives. I'll bug out,
thanks.

>Family I know evacuated in anticipation of Hurricane Rita. They headed for
>San Antonio. The family started out from Cypress (deep northwest of Houston,
>about 80 miles from the Gulf). After twelve hours on the road they were
>about 30 miles closer to the Alamo City, having to contend with all the
>other (presumed) Yankees on the road.

They certainly waited around longer than I plan to. My plan is more like
riding out hurricanes in Minnesota.

>Ended up riding out the hurricane in their car. At least they thought it was
>the hurricane, if you consider two hours of rain squalls a storm.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>-MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> There are, indeed, different types of snow. The soft, packed stuff to
>> which he referred is easy to drive on and has as good or better
>> traction than many gravel roads.
>
>Better than more slippery snow, but it's a stretch to say it's as good as or
>better than many gravel roads.

Not a stretch at all. When it's -20F, or below, packed snow gives a lot more
traction than gravel or dirt.

>> The pavement isn't "warm" in the middle of the night, in the middle of
>> winter.
>
>Depends. It certainly can be warmer than freezing in the middle of winter.
>Not even uncommon.

Not in the frozen North.

>> If it snows in the middle of the day when the sun has warmed
>> up the pavement, or early in the season when the ground temperature is
>> still high, yes, ice can form underneath.
>
>Can, but seldom does. More likely scenario is that hardpack develops and
>more snow falls on top. Hardpack underneath is slippery but not as slippery
>as ice. Drivers caught unaware, discover the hardpack and are caught by
>surprise. Real ice underneath snow cover is not that common.

Nope. Hardpack isn't slippery at all. Ice is, but that's a different kettle.

>> But after a few weeks of
>> continued cold weather, the ground is as cold as the air. That's why
>> one has to dig foundation footings below the "frost line" in the
>> north.
>
>
>Except for this damned year. Not enough frost in the ground to rely upon.
>Digging up a lot of grass this year with the plow.

[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Yep. It snows about a quarter-inch here in Houston every ten years
>> or so. People stock up on canned goods, the freeways, schools, and
>> airport are shut down, people huddle in their family rooms and pray,
>> church pews fill up, children scrape the snow off of car hoods, make
>> six-inch tall snowmen and call them good. The city flings sand on
>> the streets, along with ashes, sawdust, corn stalks, sheets of
>> plywood, and anything else it can find. The mayor has a press
>> conference every thirty minutes to remind residents to tune in
>> CONELRAD on their AM radios.
>
> CONELRAD? I suppose it would be a perfect time for those wily
> Rooskies to attack!
>
>> On the other hand, as soon as a hurricane enters the Gulf, visitors
>> from the northern climes look down and say: "Feet! Make tracks!"
>> Natives stock up on beer and Strawberry PopTarts in anticipation of
>> all the block parties.
>
> Given that I'm a carpetbagger here, count me in with the "Make
> tracks" crowd. I can always buy beer and PopTarts and have a party
> somewhere else.

Aw, you'll get tired of that shit after a while. Besides, there ain't
nothing like seeing a trash can sail by at seventy miles an hour! If you
consume enough beer, you can make a swell game of it - much like a bull
fight.

Family I know evacuated in anticipation of Hurricane Rita. They headed for
San Antonio. The family started out from Cypress (deep northwest of Houston,
about 80 miles from the Gulf). After twelve hours on the road they were
about 30 miles closer to the Alamo City, having to contend with all the
other (presumed) Yankees on the road.

Ended up riding out the hurricane in their car. At least they thought it was
the hurricane, if you consider two hours of rain squalls a storm.

Different snow?....buloney! The pavement is warm under the first snow and
makes it a bit icy underneath...the worst combination of surprise.


It's the skill of the driver and the sharpness of the snow lug (I know.
"what the heck is a snow lug?" on the tires that are the key factors in snow
driving. Salt isn't used in sme parts and doesn't work in much of the colder
winter weather.

Here you put on a decent tire, one that won't perform on a drag race track,
a new set on the front, every year, and you are fine with a little practice.
Oh yeah, you have to not be drinking Jim Beam as you drive, either.


"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I have to wonder what kind of sand, salt and cold are you referring to? A
number of times over the years, I've experienced weather in Toronto where
the temperature has been -20F and that's before the wind chill was been
factored in. As long as the streets aren't too mushy or clogged with snow,
salt and sand have worked fine for the most part.


[email protected]> wrote in message
When I lived in VT they didn't use *any* sand (it tends to freeze solid).
When it gets really cold salt doesn't work, either. Packed snow is easy to
drive on, though. Forget ice, no matter where you live.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:59:07 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> says...
>>> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote > It always amazes me how the
>>> South is absolutely shut down by snow. But when
>>>> you really get any measurable amount every twenty years or so, there's no
>>>> preparation or contingencies for it, and no one knows what to do except
>>>> for visiting damn Yankees. Then, if all goes well, it's thawed and gone
>>>> in a couple of three days.
>>> I am originally from Ohio, near the lake, and for my first 27 years, drove
>>> in snow all the time without worry.
>>>
>...
>>> In the South, winter weather often starts as freezing rain, changing to
>>> snow. That is nearly impossible to find any traction on that stuff when it
>>> is frozen on the road. They do not have salt or enough equipment to get it
>>> on all of the back roads quickly, so you have roads in neighborhoods that
>>> are nearly impassible.
>>>
>>> So, the snow is different. It really is. ...
>...
>> It's funny how many northerners don't realize just how much of the ease
>> with which they travel after a snowfall is the result of the sand trucks
>> and not of the excellence of their driving skills.
>...
>
>Also, particularly the farther south one is, the more likely that the
>ground is yet warm even though air temperatures drop when it does snow.
> Consequently, rather than the fallen snow staying snow as it does in
>cold climates and therefore actually providing decent traction when
>packed, the combination of relatively warm ground/roads and weight of
>the first vehicles over it causes it to melt and then it becomes the icy
>layer even if there wasn't freezing rain/drizzle first. The snow itself
>isn't any different but the weather and resulting road conditions
>certainly are in general. Terrain as noted is a factor as well; much of
>those lake snow areas is essentially flat; it's hard to find a flat spot
>big enough for the cat in much of the southeast...

Don't forget to "watch for ice on bridges". They do freeze faster than the
ground. We were up in Atlanta Saturday, and there were reports of ice on the
"Spaghetti Junction" (I-85 to I-285 junction, mostly spindly aerial ramps -
way up there) ramps. I didn't see how, since it was well above freezing
(lower 40s) and sunny. There were a lot of accidents around the city, though.

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Salt lowers the freezing point of water. In general it doesn't work well
> below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.

I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as a
boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:18:21 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jan 10, 9:32 am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > Salt lowers the freezing point of water.  In general it doesn't work well
>> > below 15 degrees F although heavy traffic helps.
>>
>> I've heard that information before although it doesn't change the basis of
>> my comment since I've always believed its main value in winter time was as a
>> boost for traction. Essentially, I'm asking what's different (or worse as
>> was suggested) about winter and roads in this case in Vermont?
>
>I just LOVE those people with their new AWD or 4WD vehicles just
>zooming along in the snow. Yes, better traction and acceleration than
>everybody else...but the idiots do not seem to know that they have no
>advantage when it comes to stopping.

I would tell my wife, "I have a four wheel drive, so I can go anywhere. It's
an off-road truck so I can even go off the road." It took here a while to
understand what I was saying. ;-)

I took her to work today. They only delayed until 11:00AM. She was pissed
that they didn't cancel altogether, but there really wasn't any reason. While
there is some ice hanging from the trees and on the grass, the roads are just
wet (typical of snowfalls here).

>For my kids? No SkidSkool, no keys. The full program.
>
>All that sand and salt is murder on the infrastructure. It is not just
>the cars that get damaged. If you have to, a little sand.... and SLOW
>DOWN!!

There is a lot more damage if they don't use it.