pF

[email protected] (Florida Patriot)

23/10/2004 12:20 AM

Pol: Why not to re-elect Bush--IRAQ!

Kerry is definitely the lesser of evils, and has some promise of being
a positive.

The Bush Jr. administration will go down in history as one of the
worst ever.

We went to war against Iraq, not terrorists--not Al Queda as the Bush
administration tried to paint it. The 9/11 Commission found that
there were no ties between Iraq and 9/11. And there were no ties to
Al Queda.

Hussein had a secular regime. The greatest threat to his rule were
the religious extremists. They were not allies.

The Bush administration makes a string of similar misrepresentations.

For example, they refer to a nuclear threat, cleanly overlooking that
Iraq had zero nuclear capabilities, and further, that the sanctions
had worked--that Iraq was so weak it was not even a threat to its
neighbors, much less the U.S.

They also ignore the fact that Bush promised war only as a last
resort, and that he still claims that he did go to war as a last
resort.

We know that was not the case. U.N. inspectors were only allowed to
search for 3½ months before the United States and Britain launched
their invasion, which Chief UN Weapons Inspector Hans Blix said was
too short.

Blix said the war in Iraq was not necessary to make the world safer.
""A couple of months more would have further shown the weakness in
evidence for weapons of mass destruction, because there weren't any,"
Blix said. "The evidence that was invoked by the U.S. and the U.K.
would have fallen further apart."

"The decision to go to war symbolized something new in the strategic
thinking in the U.S.," Blix said. "President Bush implied that you
must act in advance to prevent and to preempt. However, there was not,
at that time, the slightest sign of future Iraqi terror attacks."

The Bush neo-conservatives act like criticism of the Bush
administration is merely political. They deliberately overlook the
many, many non-partisan and bi-partisan judgments on the incompetence
of this administration.

This war has been handled ineptly from the start through today.
Starting with the the coalition that Bush Jr. formed--barely a shadow
of what his father put together for the first war with Iraq--up
through today's inept handling of the stabilization effort.

Take a moment to consider the body count.

Military casualties as of Oct 18, 2004..
U.S.: 1102
U.K.: 68
Other: 70

Prior to Bush's "Mission accomplished" speech - US:139/UK:33/Other:0

Now recall the Bush administration predictions (spin): Asked if
Americans are prepared for a "long, costly and bloody battle," Vice
President Cheney (former Secretary of Defense) replied: "Well, I don't
think it's likely to unfold that way...The read we get on the people
of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of
Saddam Hussein, and they will welcome as liberators the United States
when we come to do that."

Vice President Cheney predicted Hussein's troops would "step aside"
and that the conflict would be "weeks rather than months," a phrase
repeated by other top officials.

Once war was underway, the Bush administration changed their tune,
becoming more cautious.

But they ignored the advice of generals, such as four-star General
Shinseki, Chief of Staff of the Army, who answered honestly when
Congress asked him how many soldiers might be needed to stabilize
Iraq--300,000. The Bush administration turned on him, attacking his
judgment and character. Rumsfeld force forced him into early
retirement and was noticeably absent at the ceremony.

Now the Iraq situation is worsening and all experts say more soldiers
will be required.

But for political reasons--the election race--Bush is not allowing the
generals to make the military decisions, despite his rhetoric about
doing so. He is giving ground now because he wants to keep negative
press down before the election.

(1) We are losing ground that will cost *more* American lives when we
have to regain it after the election.

(2) More troops should have been sent and now will have to be sent if
we are to be effective.

Bush's fellow Republicans are voicing their opinions on the matter.

Sen. Chuck Hagel (Republican-Neb.) ripped Bush's handling of the war,
pointing to a spate of Bush administration missteps in Iraq and
insisting a new ground offensive was needed to quell the spiraling
violence.

"The fact is, we're in deep trouble in Iraq,'' Hagel said on CBS'
"Face The Nation" show, just two days before Bush made a major speech
on Iraq at the United Nations.

"We're going to have to sustain, tragically, some more casualties,''
Republican Senator McCain said. "Airstrikes won't do it. Artillery
doesn't do it. Boots on the ground do it. And the longer we delay, the
more difficult the challenge is going to be and the more casualties we
will incur.''

Some Democrats suggested Bush is waiting until after the election to
launch a major offensive.

"The only thing I can figure as to why they're not doing it with a
sense of urgency is that they don't want to do it before the
election,'' Sen. Joseph Biden (D-Del.), said on ABC.

Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman
and a respected voice on global affairs, criticized the Bush
administration for spending just $1 billion of the $18.4 billion
Congress approved to rebuild Iraq.

"This is the incompetence in the administration,'' Lugar said on ABC's
"This Week."
The Department of the Army released a study that showed that as many
as 25% of our U.S. casualties might be alive if they had been issued
the proper body armor.

McCain said Bush was not being "as straight as we would want him to
be" about the situation.

"The longer we delay with these sanctuaries, the more difficult the
challenge is going to be and the more casualties we will incur and the
Iraqi people will suffer because they will be able to operate out of
these sanctuaries obviously now with somewhat of impunity," McCain
said.

The opinion piece implies that people who disagree with the Bush
administration version of things do so out solely for political
reasons. That's wrong.

Retired General Zinni (the former Commander of Central Command of U.S.
Military, and Special Envoy to the Middle East in the Bush
Administration) told it straight and true: he said Rumsfeld and his
neo-con cohorts at the Pentagon (Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz, Perle, etc) were
guilty of serious "derelictions of duty," "criminal negligence," and
"poor planning that put U.S. soldiers in harm's way."

U.S. Generals including, Schwartzkopf, Skowcroft, Clark, Shinseki and
others have told the neo-conservatives that they were making a
mistake. But the Bush administration hasn't listened.

General Tony McPeak, former Chief of Staff of the Air Force under Bush
Sr. during Desert Storm, Republican co-chair of Oregon Veterans for
Bush in 2000, recipient of the Silver Star, Distinguished Service
Medal and Distinguished Flying Cross, and a fighter pilot who flew
over 300 combat missions in Vietnam, said, "Bush claims he has made
America stronger and safer, but in reality he has made the United
States weaker and less safe." Before a large audience McPeak
emphasized the point by saying he was a life-long conservative, but
would not vote for Bush again if he was running against "Grandma
Moses."

General John Eisenhower said, "As son of a Republican President,
Dwight D. Eisenhower, it is automatically expected by many that I am a
Republican. For 50 years, through the election of 2000, I was. With
the current administration's decision to invade Iraq unilaterally,
however, I changed my voter registration to independent, and barring
some utterly unforeseen development, I intend to vote for the
Democratic Presidential candidate, Sen. John Kerry."

The criticism of the Bush administration's handling of Iraq is not
political; it crosses party lines, and it is vital interest to all
Americans.


This topic has 14 replies

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

23/10/2004 5:27 PM

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:14:06 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> The Bush neo-conservatives act like criticism of the Bush
>> administration is merely political. They deliberately overlook the
>> many, many non-partisan and bi-partisan judgments on the incompetence
>> of this administration.
>>
>If everything you've said is true, you're still pissing into the wind.
>You can't use facts to change the minds of true believers. Anything
>that doesn't fit their belief structure is filtered out.


As opposed to the side that ignores the fact that its candidate committed
treason? Meeting with the other side and "negotiating" what it would take
to get POW's released while still in the ready reserve seems to meet that
criteria. Other than that, who knows what we'd get with him? He's stated
so many differing positions on every issue that there's no way of knowing
which Kerry you're voting for. [although I suspect he will revert to his
historical positions which place him as an internationalist (deaths of
American soldiers if we are in Eastern Europe is bad if we go it alone,
good if we go with the UN -- 1994 interview his own words), a statist who
will increase the size of government and government expenditures,
anti-defense as his backing of unilateral disarmament and other cuts in the
past has shown, anti-military as his anti-war activism showed (there were
ways to oppose the war without impugning those who were serving -- he chose
the low road]

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

23/10/2004 10:14 AM

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> The Bush neo-conservatives act like criticism of the Bush
> administration is merely political. They deliberately overlook the
> many, many non-partisan and bi-partisan judgments on the incompetence
> of this administration.
>
If everything you've said is true, you're still pissing into the wind.
You can't use facts to change the minds of true believers. Anything
that doesn't fit their belief structure is filtered out.

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

24/10/2004 10:11 AM

In article <1098577567.YMVqEVI6y+jya7z9cKh4Vw@teranews>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:14:06 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >If everything you've said is true, you're still pissing into the wind.
> >You can't use facts to change the minds of true believers. Anything
> >that doesn't fit their belief structure is filtered out.
>
>
> As opposed to the side that ignores the fact that its candidate committed
> treason? Meeting with the other side and "negotiating" what it would take
> to get POW's released while still in the ready reserve seems to meet that
> criteria. Other than that, who knows what we'd get with him?

Well, I see I triggered a couple of "true believers" :-). I know it
wont do any good, but for a sample of Bush supporters fantasy world,
take a look at:

http://www.news-leader.com/today/1022-Surveyfind-207585.html

which is just the first newspaper I found via Google.

For those of you too lazy for that, I quote some excerpts:

----------------------------------------
The survey also found that Bush supporters have "numerous
misperceptions" about the president's positions. Majorities incorrectly
believe that Bush backs the Kyoto global-warming treaty, the
Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the International Criminal Court, and the
treaty banning land mines.

A majority of Bush backers (57 percent) also believe most people in the
world favor Bush's re-election, contrary to the findings of several
polls.
--------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------
Steven Kull, program director, said that Bush supporters' "resistance to
information" on several fronts reflected a powerful bond with the
president formed after the Sept. 11 attacks, and the perception -
shared by Kerry supporters - that Bush still asserts that Iraq had WMD.
----------------------------------------------

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

25/10/2004 8:49 AM

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> First it is pretty easy to know what your candidate's positions are when
> they consist of nothing more than "Bush did everything wrong and I have a
> plan." That's his entire platform.
>
I never said I liked Kerry, to me he's just the lesser evil.

But do YOU believe that Bush backs the Kyoto treaty, etc.?

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

25/10/2004 8:04 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> People who support Bush do so, I think, mostly because they are
> conservatives to start with, and they also approve of his handling of the
> war and want to see more of it.

I think you're right. But some folks would vote Republican no matter
who was on the ticket.

> Do you think Kerry supporters really
> support Kerry, or are they just voting democratic because that's what they
> always do, and they hate Bush?
>

Some folks would vote Democrat no matter...

In my case, I've voted for both parties, and one or two others over the
years. Heck, I even campaigned for Goldwater as a precinct worker. But
I also voted for Clinton and think Truman was the best President in my
lifetime.

And no, I don't hate Bush, just what he stands for. Now if you'd said
Cheney ... :-).

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

nN

[email protected] (Nate Perkins)

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

25/10/2004 9:23 PM

Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > First it is pretty easy to know what your candidate's positions are when
> > they consist of nothing more than "Bush did everything wrong and I have a
> > plan." That's his entire platform.
> >
> I never said I liked Kerry, to me he's just the lesser evil.
>
> But do YOU believe that Bush backs the Kyoto treaty, etc.?

Interesting article from the American Conservative magazine, giving
reasons why they endorse Kerry:
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html

And in the interest of fairness, here's Pat Buchanan's counterpoint
article in the same issue, giving reasons why he endorses Bush:
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover.html

Both are good reading if you have a moderate or conservative bent.

hD

[email protected] (David Hall)

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

26/10/2004 6:36 AM

Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > First it is pretty easy to know what your candidate's positions are when
> > they consist of nothing more than "Bush did everything wrong and I have a
> > plan." That's his entire platform.
> >
> I never said I liked Kerry, to me he's just the lesser evil.
>
> But do YOU believe that Bush backs the Kyoto treaty, etc.?

If I did, I would have to vote against him (oh, sh*t, who would I vote
for then, seems that Kerry and Nader would gladly force us to live
with drastic reductions in "greenhouse" gases while allowing China and
most other non-european countries to increase their outputs
dramatically?)

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

30/10/2004 8:57 PM

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:11:38 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <1098577567.YMVqEVI6y+jya7z9cKh4Vw@teranews>,
>[email protected] says...
>> On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:14:06 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >If everything you've said is true, you're still pissing into the wind.
>> >You can't use facts to change the minds of true believers. Anything
>> >that doesn't fit their belief structure is filtered out.
>>
>>
>> As opposed to the side that ignores the fact that its candidate committed
>> treason? Meeting with the other side and "negotiating" what it would take
>> to get POW's released while still in the ready reserve seems to meet that
>> criteria. Other than that, who knows what we'd get with him?
>
>Well, I see I triggered a couple of "true believers" :-).

... and you then are what Larry? A true beleever in Kerry? One does not
have to be a mindless zombie to support a particular candidate that
promotes, at least marginally, the particular philosophy of government (or
better, non-government) with which they associate. One would have to be a
flaming idiot to support the other guy when his views are diametrically
opposed (in all respects) to one's own (at least the views that the other
guy has lived the last 30 years, 20 of those years in the Senate with a
record that one can peruse, as opposed to the views he is promoting during
the past 3 months which don't match his pattern of behavior in the Senate).
Thus, while Bush is too liberal for my tastes, he at least scores high in
the defense of his country category and has shown that he is not a flaming
internationalist who will put our country under the control of others.


> I know it
>wont do any good, but for a sample of Bush supporters fantasy world,
>take a look at:
>



>http://www.news-leader.com/today/1022-Surveyfind-207585.html
>
>which is just the first newspaper I found via Google.
>

OK, a report written by someone who is attempting to promote an agenda.

>For those of you too lazy for that, I quote some excerpts:
>
>----------------------------------------
>The survey also found that Bush supporters have "numerous
>misperceptions" about the president's positions. Majorities incorrectly
>believe that Bush backs the Kyoto global-warming treaty,

I find that hard to believe, Bush's resistance to the treaty is one of
the strong points of his positions.

> the
>Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty,

I'm wondering who they are surveying in these polls.

> the International Criminal Court,

His initial opposition was later softened -- this is an issue and a
sticking point. He should have stuck with his original emphatic
declaration the we would not place our citizens at the mercy of a biased
world court.

> and the
>treaty banning land mines.
>

I can't imagine many conservatives who would view that as a good thing,
thus I'm not sure why this would be considered as a positive for Bush by
those backing him.

> A majority of Bush backers (57 percent) also believe most people in the
>world favor Bush's re-election, contrary to the findings of several
> polls.

Again, I am really curious who was polled, Bush supporters or people
claiming to be Bush supporters. All of the issues identified are those
that are only of strong interest and enjoy the strong support to people of
the opposing political persuasion. The bulk of the people whom I know who
support Bush would find the idea that Bush backed those ideas as negatives
rather than positives. The whole gist of the article you cited is bizarre
in the questions asked, the alleged answers by the respondents who are
supposedly Bush supporters, and the conclusions drawn. Also interesting is
the comment
" A large majority of President Bush's supporters continue to believe that
Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction (47 percent) or a major program
to develop them (25 percent), contrary to official findings, a survey taken
this month found.
while ignoring the rest of the same official finding that indicated that
Sadaam had plans to restart his WMD programs as soon as sanctions were
lifted and he was working to get those sanctions lifted sooner rather than
later.


So your point here is that all supporters of George Bush are mislead
idiots who would really vote for Kerry if they knew the "truth" as you
espouse it above?

>--------------------------------------------
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Steven Kull, program director, said that Bush supporters' "resistance to
>information" on several fronts reflected a powerful bond with the
> president formed after the Sept. 11 attacks, and the perception -
>shared by Kerry supporters - that Bush still asserts that Iraq had WMD.
>----------------------------------------------

fF

[email protected] (Fred the Red Shirt)

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

30/10/2004 9:19 AM

"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>
> That poll seems to point out that people will say the president is in favor
> of things they think are a good idea because they are guessing. Most people
> don't want to look stupid in a poll.

Agreed, and it is the guessing that does make them look stupid.

> It seems to me the point of that article is
> to make Bush supporters seem dim witted, and Kerry supporters "enlightened."
> Pure political crap in an election year. Oh, wait, this article appeared in
> a newspaper, it can't possibly be biased!
>

I daresay that is the conclusion of the study. I don't know if it was
designed in advance to show that, though I don't see why that would
have been necessary.

The newspaper article is refering to study done by the University of
Maryland so we know it can't be biased because Universities never
do biased studies and newspapers never misrepresent their work, right?

--

FF

DW

"Dan White"

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

25/10/2004 1:23 AM

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Well, I see I triggered a couple of "true believers" :-). I know it
> wont do any good, but for a sample of Bush supporters fantasy world,
> take a look at:
>
> http://www.news-leader.com/today/1022-Surveyfind-207585.html
>
> which is just the first newspaper I found via Google.
>

Larry, this article is pretty funny. Here are some other excerpts:

"Kerry supporters have a more accurate perception of their candidate's
positions, and the gulf between Kerry and Bush supporters is large, the
survey found.
"While 85 percent of Bush backers think the United States made the right
decision to go to war against Iraq, only 8 percent of Kerry backers agree.

First it is pretty easy to know what your candidate's positions are when
they consist of nothing more than "Bush did everything wrong and I have a
plan." That's his entire platform. Also the 92% of Kerry backers who think
it was wrong to go to war better check back with Kerry...he flat out said it
was the right thing to do even knowing what we know now. And your telling
me Bush supporters don't know their man? ha!

dwhite

Gg

GregP

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

30/10/2004 12:37 AM

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 17:27:21 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Other than that, who knows what we'd get with him? He's stated
>so many differing positions on every issue that there's no way of knowing
>which Kerry you're voting for.


Kinda like trying to sort out which of Bush's reasons-du-jour
is *really* the reason Bush sent 12,000 US people to death
and mutilitation.

DW

"Dan White"

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

26/10/2004 3:40 AM

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> And no, I don't hate Bush, just what he stands for. Now if you'd said
> Cheney ... :-).
>

It is amazing how reasonable (I guess) people can see things so differently.
On that topic, I caught a few minutes of Deepak Chopra being interviewed by
Dennis Miller. Chopra is obviously very intelligent, but his views on how
to combat terrorism are just so naive it is astounding. It seems people
like that can sit around and pontificate on how things should be handled so
much differently while others get down to the dirty work and actually do
something to protect the country. Maybe Chopra has been sent back in time
from the Starship Enterprise where there is one world and conflict is dealt
with peacefully and there are no insane zealots.

dwhite

DW

"Dan White"

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

23/10/2004 11:09 PM


"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > The Bush neo-conservatives act like criticism of the Bush
> > administration is merely political. They deliberately overlook the
> > many, many non-partisan and bi-partisan judgments on the incompetence
> > of this administration.
> >
> If everything you've said is true, you're still pissing into the wind.
> You can't use facts to change the minds of true believers. Anything
> that doesn't fit their belief structure is filtered out.
>

Especially when you misrepresent much of the argument. It isn't about the
criticisms being only political, although they are purely political when it
comes to Kerry. The others who criticise just don't buy into the bigger
strategy. Of course I'm making the assumption that these people understand
what that is (and that is often a pretty big assumption). I respect
people's right to disagree with the strategy, but have no respect for those
who put words into other people's mouths or say things that just aren't
true. Your statement about belief structures goes both ways equally.

dwhite

DW

"Dan White"

in reply to [email protected] (Florida Patriot) on 23/10/2004 12:20 AM

25/10/2004 10:17 PM

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > First it is pretty easy to know what your candidate's positions are when
> > they consist of nothing more than "Bush did everything wrong and I have
a
> > plan." That's his entire platform.
> >
> I never said I liked Kerry, to me he's just the lesser evil.

Fair enough. I noticed you posted about bettas in another ng I have been
frequenting recently. Small world, huh?

>
> But do YOU believe that Bush backs the Kyoto treaty, etc.?
>

I follow politics more than most, less than some. I know plenty about Kyoto
and what a travesty is was, and that Bush was not for it because it would
have put a brake on our economy and would have reduced emissions by only a
small amount, and would have reduced the supposed global warming by a
fraction of a fraction of what it would have been without Kyoto. It was
supposedly a "starting point." The whole global warming/UN issue is such a
snakepit of politics it is about as bad as the oil for food program.

We live in a country where small economic shifts actually have an impact on
who gets elected. Many people just don't understand economic cycles and how
loosely the president is tied to how the economy goes. Yes, he can have an
impact, but the free market system is generally going to do what it is going
to do.

That poll seems to point out that people will say the president is in favor
of things they think are a good idea because they are guessing. Most people
don't want to look stupid in a poll. I'd like to see the questions and how
they were asked. The other thing is that issues like Kyoto and weapons are
about as far down on the list as you can get. Nobody cares that much.
People who support Bush do so, I think, mostly because they are
conservatives to start with, and they also approve of his handling of the
war and want to see more of it. Do you think Kerry supporters really
support Kerry, or are they just voting democratic because that's what they
always do, and they hate Bush? It seems to me the point of that article is
to make Bush supporters seem dim witted, and Kerry supporters "enlightened."
Pure political crap in an election year. Oh, wait, this article appeared in
a newspaper, it can't possibly be biased!

dwhite


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