On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:00:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/16/2016 12:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
>>> filter out the blue.
>>
>> Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
>> LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
>> Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
>> generate visible light with phosphors.
>>
>
>
>Excuse me for using the wrong terminology. But with out the yellow you
>get blue, the point I was trying to make. ;!)
It's really the opposite of a filter. You're adding individual colors
(from phosphors) to get a perceived color, rather than starting with
all colors and filtering out the ones you don't want. If you look at
the spectrum through a filter, an incandescent with a filter will
produce a continuous spectrum. A fluorescent or LED will produce
bright lines with nothing between. That's why fluorescent and LED
tubes have problems with color "purity".
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>> life expectancy.
>>>
>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>> at least 2 fold.
>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>
>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>>
>>
>
> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.
>
>
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>>>> Lumens are lumens.
>>>
>>> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
>>> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
>>> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
>>
>
> Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
> term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
> hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
>
> Puckdropper
>
In wonder if that is marketing or just their different perspectives on
which daylight is more preferable. Like all of the different shades of
white that paint companies offer. Some days are brighter than others
depending on the season.
dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>
> About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
> in. I liked them, nice and bright.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>
> Within 3 months, one began flickering badly. Another month or so and a
> second began flickering, A month or so later the flickering was so bad that
> they were unuseable so both were replaced with similar incandescent bulb
> fixtures. The replaced lights had a 5 year warranty but I didn't bother
> with it, HD receipt was long gone and even if I had it, the warranty has a
> "not OUR fault" clause' moreover, the only remedy was repair or replace and
> I didn't want another..
>
> Four or five months later, the third began flickering too. It is still
> flickering, light outbut is maybe 10% of the original. It too will be
> replaced when I get around to it. That's $90 + 7% tax down the drain. No
> more LEDs for me.
>
>
>
FWIW. The bulbs that HD and the likes sell are some what unique to each
brand store. I have called the manufacturer, given them the numbers off of
the bulbs and they can tell me that I either bought them from HD, Lowes, Or
Sam's Club. They never need a receipt or proof of purchase for a free
replacement but some times might want the defective one back. Every
manufacturer has paid for return shipping when asked to return.
On 11/13/2016 10:31 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>>>> life expectancy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>>>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>>>> at least 2 fold.
>>>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>>>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
>>>> fail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
>>
>>
>> Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
> Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?
>
I like the spell checkers. Don't like those too lazy to look before
sending.
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 9:03:38 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
> > trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
> > but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
> > Mine don't even run warm.
> >
> >
>
> Inertia... The "clip on bulb" style of lamp shades have been scarce for
> years, and there's litterally millions of fixtures with a standard medium
> base out there. What worked for the old bulbs space wise will work for
> the new ones.
>
> Although, for new construction a flat "pancake" style box and a shallow
> fixture would allow you to have "recessed" pot lights without actually
> recessing them. They're currently a favorite design it seems, but I'm
> not all that keen on them.
>
> In one library (bathroom) the new HVAC return went right over the reading
> chair (toilet). The light that was there was removed and I haven't been
> bothered enough to put one back. A flat pot light (especially one that
> could be surface mounted) would fit that location quite nicely. (I think
> I hear somebody saying "fire up Google". Yeah, I know... It's on the
> list.)
>
> Puckdropper
I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
They have a standard E26 "base" so they can be used in a standard fixture.
I replaced the bulb in the porcelain fixture near the service panel with
the 7" version. Much, much brighter.
My daughter's apartment has a kitchen light with a round shade and a socket
for a single bulb, similar to this:
http://iappfind.com/images/_fullsize/m/mind-large-dual-fitting-pluto-metal-lighting-pendant-shades-toger-also-pendant-shades_shades-of-white.jpg
I replaced the single bulb with the 11" size and it not only fills the
shade nicely but spreads the light much more widely. It was so much
brighter that it took her a few days to get used to it.
On the subject of brightness, I also found the LED shop lights and
those flush mount units to be almost painfully bright after I installed
them. It took a few days for me to get used to them. I think the additional
brightness drew my eyes to them and that's what made them "uncomfortable".
After a few days, I think my brain adapted and they stopped bothering me. My
daughter noticed the same thing with her kitchen fixture. At first she
wanted me to take it out, but I suggested she try it for a few days and
now she fine with it.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:30:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/13/16 12:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting
>>>> to fail.
>>>
>>> My fluorescent experiences...
>>>
>>> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>>>
>>> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>>>
>>> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
>>
>>
>> It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability
>> of the electric supply.
>>
>> My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes
>> every year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it
>> myself. Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.
>>
>
>
>May also have to do with price/quality.
>As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the equation.
>Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
>bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one
>can cost.
I think you're onto something there. For the number of hours a
fluorescent will run in a home, it's probably not worth the more
expensive ballast.
On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 7:55:20 AM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused=
wrote:
> On 11/12/2016 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> > Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco led=
s.
> >
>=20
>=20
> So, Larry, what's the verdict? Have you purchased and installed those=20
> Costo lights yet?
>=20
> I'd be interested in hearing your verdict after they're up and running.
Just hung the first one. Instant on, no buzz, no flicker. Plastic housing=
, but I guess that's OK. Light seems a little "warmer" than the strong whi=
te I got with the fluorescent. I'll be curious to see if they last 45 year=
s, but by then I'll be 115 and probably won't remember to check. :-)
For $30, I judge this to be a good deal.
On 11/12/2016 10:28 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
>
I have 16, T8 4' tubes in my 3 car garage.
If I had it to do all over again I might go wit these. My wife has one
in her sewing studio over her cutting table and it is perfect. I have
two more on order to go into my shop.
http://www.rockler.com/led-shop-light-with-shroud
On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 11/17/2016 8:14 AM, Swingman wrote:
> > On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> >> Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
> >> the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
> >> email server. Before the WWW came along...
> >
> > And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
> > the "www came along ...":
> >
> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > A: Top-posting.
> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> >
>
>
> Tahw?
Hold it in front of an upside down mirror.
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
> Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
> filter out the blue.
Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
generate visible light with phosphors.
On 11/12/2016 10:49 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/12/16 10:28 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>> 4 footers.
>>
>
> Look at LED! I couldn't be happier with the Feit LED shop lights I
> got from Costco. They now sell separate LED "tubes" for retrofit in
> existing fixtures.
>
> They use a fraction of the energy, run much cooler, and produce
> wonderful, cool, light, with no ugly green tint like most florescent
> tube.
>
Yeah, what Mike said!
I switched to LED shop lights in the garage over a year ago and could
not be happier. Instant on at full throttle even in the coldest weather.
More light than I've EVER gotten from fluorescent tubes of any ilk.
Currently carried at $59.99 for a two pack of the 4' x two "lamp"
hanging fixtures as shown here.
http://tinyurl.com/jmph7bm
The fixtures look like regular fluorescent shop lights (more or less)
but they are thinner and lighter. They can be interconnected or hung
individually. Try them, you won't regret it.
"G. Ross" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
>> footers.
>>
> The mainest thing is the ballast. I had T12's with the old style
> ballasts and they would fart around and blink and give poor light in
> the winter. Changed them to T8 with electronic ballast. They pop
> right on, even on cold mornings and including the one in the outside
> shed.
>
The old ballasts buzz and while I couldn't see the 60 Hz flicker (some
people can) they'd tire my eyes. New electronic ballasts (low temperature
starting and instant on are good clues) are so much better.
You can get different color temperatures too, the 6500K "daylight" bulbs
seem so much brighter than the 2800K "warm white" and use the same amount
of electricity.
Puckdropper
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:
> On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>
>>>
>>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>>> Lumens are lumens.
>>
>> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
>> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
>> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>>
>
> The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
>
Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
Puckdropper
On 2016-11-12 16:49:37 +0000, -MIKE- said:
> On 11/12/16 10:28 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
>> footers.
>>
>
> Look at LED! I couldn't be happier with the Feit LED shop lights I got
> from Costco. They now sell separate LED "tubes" for retrofit in
> existing fixtures.
>
> They use a fraction of the energy, run much cooler, and produce
> wonderful, cool, light, with no ugly green tint like most florescent
> tube.
The Feit LEDs are a great option, it's what I went with
I've nearly tripled the light in the shop since I set it up. Our eyes
need more light as we age
Also florescents produce -less- light as they age
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
> trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
> but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
> Mine don't even run warm.
>
>
Inertia... The "clip on bulb" style of lamp shades have been scarce for
years, and there's litterally millions of fixtures with a standard medium
base out there. What worked for the old bulbs space wise will work for
the new ones.
Although, for new construction a flat "pancake" style box and a shallow
fixture would allow you to have "recessed" pot lights without actually
recessing them. They're currently a favorite design it seems, but I'm
not all that keen on them.
In one library (bathroom) the new HVAC return went right over the reading
chair (toilet). The light that was there was removed and I haven't been
bothered enough to put one back. A flat pot light (especially one that
could be surface mounted) would fit that location quite nicely. (I think
I hear somebody saying "fire up Google". Yeah, I know... It's on the
list.)
Puckdropper
On 11/19/2016 1:14 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 7:55:20 AM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 11/12/2016 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco leds.
>>>
>>
>>
>> So, Larry, what's the verdict? Have you purchased and installed those
>> Costo lights yet?
>>
>> I'd be interested in hearing your verdict after they're up and running.
>
> Just hung the first one. Instant on, no buzz, no flicker. Plastic housing, but I guess that's OK. Light seems a little "warmer" than the strong white I got with the fluorescent. I'll be curious to see if they last 45 years, but by then I'll be 115 and probably won't remember to check. :-)
>
> For $30, I judge this to be a good deal.
I agree with it being a good deal - even better when I paid, IIRC, $26
$28 each for mine.
Out where mine are hanging in the garage, I don't notice the color temp
that much (though I prefer warmer) but you surely will notice the
instant full output if you put them in a cold area like I have.
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>
> >> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
> >>
> >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
> >
> >About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
> >in. I liked them, nice and bright.
> >http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>
> Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
> to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
> par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
>
FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the box,
the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.
It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.
On 11/13/2016 1:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>
>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
>>> fail.
>>
>> My fluorescent experiences...
>>
>> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>>
>> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>>
>> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
>
>
> It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
> the electric supply.
>
> My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
> year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
> Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.
>
>
I think the difference is in the continuous hours of usage. I suspect
the business lights are on for 8 or more hours at a time. Residential
lights are likely turned off when you leave the room, and seldom on for
more than an hour or so at a time. It's the frequent starts that kill
the ballast/bulb.
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]:
>
> > On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> My actual experience would contradict that.
> >>> Lumens are lumens.
> >>
> >> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
> >> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
> >> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
> >>
> >
> > The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
> >
>
> Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
> term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
> hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
>
> Puckdropper
... yes, as shown here:
https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/Colour-Temperature-Chart.jpg
Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
https://goo.gl/cH3rUx
https://goo.gl/VmyoK3
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:22:02 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/13/16 8:44 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on
>>>>>>>> the Costco leds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT
>>>>>>> cheaper in the long run when you consider their energy
>>>>>>> consumption AND their life expectancy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
>>>>>> another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
>>>>>> incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
>>>>>> outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
>>>>> outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2
>>>>> fold. I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out
>>>>> of them. A safe guess would be 20.
>>>>
>>>> But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll
>>>> see but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less
>>>> 20. Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*.
>>>> If you want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED
>>>> "bulbs", a beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan
>>>> radiating away from the base) will probably double its life.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we
>>> still trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond
>>> me) get hot, but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the
>>> tube versions. Mine don't even run warm.
>>
>> Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.
>>
>
>My point is there's a lot more room for the heat to dissipate in a 4ft.
>tube than in a tiny little bulb-sized cluster, which would easily
>explain the longer life span using your criteria for the reason for
>failure.
It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
On 11/21/2016 12:07 PM, krw wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:53:58 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2016 8:10 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:42:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>>>>>> heat sinks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>>>>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>>>>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>>>>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>>>>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>>>>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>>>>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>>>>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>>>>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>>>>>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>>>>>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>>>>>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>>>>>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>>>>>> my LCD computer display screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
>>>>> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
>>>>> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
>>>> than room temperature.
>>>
>>> Again, the surface may not be much more than room temperature but the
>>> surface temperature of the fixture isn't important to the LEDs
>>> reliability.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ;~) I'm just saying that some LED's can remain on 24/7 and not be even
>> warm to the touch, others will burn you after a few hours.
>>
> Hot water can burn you, too. As long as it's in the thermos, you're
> safe, though. If you put it in a Styrofoam cup and stick it between
> your legs, while driving, bad things are more likely to happen. ;-)
>
> That doesn't mean both coffees aren't hot.
>
BUT the thermos has a giant separation between the coffee and your hand.
With ribbon LED's you can directly touch the circuitry and LED's that
are attached to the ribbon.
Front to back the LED ribbon is about 3/32" thick that includes the
adhesive backing, ribbon, printed circuit and the LED. There is nothing
keeping you from touching any of those components. LED ribbon is not
totally unlike a printed circuit board except it and the components are
much thinner and very flexible.
http://www.comlite-led.com/img/p/thickbox/236-2438-thickbox.jpg
The numerous paired gold contacts are about 1" apart, that is where you
cut to length with scissors to attach a pigtail for power.
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:53:58 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/20/2016 8:10 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:42:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>>>>> heat sinks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>>>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>>>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>>>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>>>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>>>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>>>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>>>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>>>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>>>>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>>>>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>>>>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>>>>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>>>>> my LCD computer display screen.
>>>>
>>>> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
>>>> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
>>>> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
>>> than room temperature.
>>
>> Again, the surface may not be much more than room temperature but the
>> surface temperature of the fixture isn't important to the LEDs
>> reliability.
>>
>
>
>;~) I'm just saying that some LED's can remain on 24/7 and not be even
>warm to the touch, others will burn you after a few hours.
>
Hot water can burn you, too. As long as it's in the thermos, you're
safe, though. If you put it in a Styrofoam cup and stick it between
your legs, while driving, bad things are more likely to happen. ;-)
That doesn't mean both coffees aren't hot.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>> life expectancy.
>>
>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>
>
> But it's not even a debatable issue.
> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
> at least 2 fold.
> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
> A safe guess would be 20.
>
> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>
>
I find glad resent love gating iffy. Our home is 6 years old and I have
had to change the fluorescent tubes in the class set and laundry room two
times.
2 weeks after moving in I installed 4, 4 tube floor resent lights fixtures
in the garage. In 6 years I have not had to replace any of the T8 bulbs
but have had to replace 2 electronic ballasts in 2 of the fixtures. Go
figure.
I think the ballasts have a lot to do with tube life.
Don't fool yourself. Lumens is the official international standard.
The Process or setup is what you are talking about before light is
measured. And what process did you use to determine the '90%' from
paint. What paint color and what paint surface and .... who cares
really. Just say a lot of light and you would be ok.
I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.
Martin
On 11/13/2016 1:15 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>>>> 4 footers.
>>>
>>> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
>>> PDF, takes a while).
>>> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>>>
>>> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
>>> want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>> Lumens are lumens.
>
> That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
> than do T-8 fluorescents.
>
> However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
> while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
> of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
> similar for both.
>
> In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
> effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
> fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
> tubes.
>
> In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
> trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
> light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
> the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
> capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
> bright.
>
>> My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
>> of fluorescent tubes.
>
> How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
> "daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?
>
>
On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 2:39:34 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 11/17/2016 11:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >> On 11/17/2016 8:14 AM, Swingman wrote:
> >>> On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> >>>> Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
> >>>> the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
> >>>> email server. Before the WWW came along...
> >>>
> >>> And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
> >>> the "www came along ...":
> >>>
> >>> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> >>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> >>> A: Top-posting.
> >>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tahw?
> >
> > Hold it in front of an upside down mirror.
> >
>
>
> LOL. I probably should have remarked, ?tahW
?huh
On 11/13/2016 12:49 PM, Larry Kraus wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>
>> My fluorescent experiences...
>>
>> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>>
>> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
> I think the difference is in the continuous hours of usage. I suspect
> the business lights are on for 8 or more hours at a time.
I agree.
I've changed 1, of 10, shop T-8's in 14 years.
I keep them on 24/7.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/13/2016 7:36 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:41:42 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:
>>
>>> Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
>>> appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
>>> the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
>>
>> Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
>> white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
>> can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
>> little different.
>
> Indeed it is and our memory for such things is really lousy. The
> brain adjusts color of objects to match what we think they should be
> (automatic color balancing, if you will). This can lead to some odd
> effects.
It's also why I can't tell the difference between black,
> blue, or brown sox in the morning. Blue and brown sox are banned from
> the house. ;-)
>
>
+1
--
Jeff
On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>> Lumens are lumens.
>
> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>
The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
> the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
> email server. Before the WWW came along...
And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
the "www came along ...":
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/12/2016 10:28 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
>
I have 16, T8 4' tubes in my 3 car garage.
If I had it to do all over again I might go wit these. My wife has one
in her sewing studio over her cutting table and it is perfect. I have
two more on order to go into my shop.
http://www.rockler.com/led-shop-light-with-shroud
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
> > footers.
>
> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a PDF, takes
> a while).
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>
> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you want max
> light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
If you want good information about rapidly
changing technology, don't read a three year old
government report.
On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>>> life expectancy.
>>>>
>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>>> at least 2 fold.
>>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>>
>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
>
>
> Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.
>>
>>
>
>
>
And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?
--
Jeff
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>
>About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
>in. I liked them, nice and bright.
>http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
It also turns out that the flickering in those
fixtures is sometimes caused by chafed wiring, which is
easily repaired.
On 11/13/2016 7:31 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>> at least 2 fold.
>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>
>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>
> My fluorescent experiences...
>
> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>
> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>
> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
>
>
Eight years ago we had all our fixtures replaced with high efficiency
fluorescent fixtures. Some are 4 light, others 6 light. So far about
25% have been replace and I'm going to order another hundred lights.
Also a half dozen ballasts have been replaced.
Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> writes:
>On 11/12/2016 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco leds.
>>
>
>
>So, Larry, what's the verdict? Have you purchased and installed those
>Costo lights yet?
I've got both the CostCo LED F40T12 replacements and the dedicated
costco 48" LED fixture. They both work well so far (the T12 replacements
are in a former fluorescent fixture in the attic, and the dedicated
fixture is over the workbench in the shop (augmenting 4x2xF96T12 C50's).
The color temp for the dedicated fixture isn't 5000k, but it's not
too far off.
On 11/12/2016 1:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
>> footers.
>
> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a PDF, takes
> a while).
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>
> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you want max
> light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>
>
That report is ancient. 2013 is old considering the rate of change of
LED lighting.
--
Jeff
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12?
> Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
Definitely T8 bulbs with electronic ballasts!
I upgraded the lights in my garage shop earlier this year:
http://www.watsondiy.com/20160201-shoplights.htm
I already had four T8 fluorescent fixtures that I installed when I built
the garage. So, I just added six more fluorescent fixtures.
I switched most of the lights in our house to LED, so I was hoping to use
LED fixtures in the garage too. Unfortunately, the equivalent LED shop
lights put out less light (fewer lumens), and cost twice as much as
fluorescent fixtures. So I stayed with the fluorescent lights.
LED bulbs should last longer, but my fluorescent bulbs were still working
fine after 16 years. So the longer life didn't make much difference to me.
LED bulbs use less energy, but my shop lights are usually on 10-20 hours a
month at most. So any power savings would be so minimal it wasn't worth the
additional cost.
LED fixtures can "appear" brighter, but that's usually just because the
light is whiter. The actual lumen output is usually lower.
You can buy fluorescent bulbs in various color ratings too.
3000K "Warm White" bulbs have reddish tint that mimics a standard
incandescent bulb.
6000K "Daylight" bulbs have a bluish tint that can make the light appear
brighter. But I find them to be a little too blue and cold feeling.
I opted for 5000K "Natural" bulbs which seem just about perfect. Not too
orange, and not too blue. Just a nice bright white light.
Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:11:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/13/2016 9:48 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>>>>>> Lumens are lumens.
>>>>>
>>>>> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
>>>>> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
>>>>> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
>>> term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
>>> hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
>>>
>>> Puckdropper
>>
>> ... yes, as shown here:
>> https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/Colour-Temperature-Chart.jpg
>>
>> Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
>> appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
>> the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
>
>It is an odd thing to comprehend. I used to hate LED lights, they ALL
>looked blue and did not seem to have any illumination compared to
>incandescent. I'm talking many years ago when LED flash lights were
>first showing up.
>
>Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
>filter out the blue.
"White" LEDs are actually blue, with various phosphors to convert the
blue light down, much as a fluorescent. Like a fluorescent, a mix of
phosphors can be used to tune the "color". Also like fluorescents,
LEDs output light in narrow wavelength bands. A filter would filter
these out, leaving you in the dark. ;-)
>
>I have Phillips Alto Daylight 6500K T8's in my shop, 16 of them, and I
>see no blue at all. BUT I just replaced the florescent screw in ceiling
>bulbs in my shop to supplement the T8's and the lamps seem to cast a
>slight touch of blue off of our white freezer. That was not there with
>just the T8's. The new LED screw in lamps are 3700K, Go figure. I
>guess they don't have enough yellow filter .
>
>
>
>
>>
>> https://goo.gl/cH3rUx
>>
>> https://goo.gl/VmyoK3
>>
>>
On 11/20/2016 10:41 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/19/16 8:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>
> Power supplies are sources of heat, but more likely the devices heat
> sink is extended into the base where the power supply is enclosed.
>>
>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>
> The LEDs used in ribbons are not high power devices and there are
> hundreds of them on a standard 16' reel. Each individual LED is only
> dissipating a fraction of a watt.
Exactly.
>
> -BR
>
--
Jeff
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:28:22 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
I think the color temperature is a more important decision. I like
the 6500K tubes for work areas.
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 5:56:49 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
> >On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
> >> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
> >>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
> >>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
> >> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
> >> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
> >> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
> >> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
> >> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
> >> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
> >> mitigate any advantages 8^)
> >>
> >> -BR
> >>
> >
> >
> >There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
> >put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
> >is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
> >
> >I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
> >12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>
> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
How do it know?
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>
>>
>>
>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>
>> -BR
>>
>
>
>There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>
>I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>12 volt and they do not even get warm.
You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:54:09 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/21/2016 12:07 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:53:58 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2016 8:10 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:42:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>>>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>>>>>>> heat sinks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>>>>>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>>>>>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>>>>>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>>>>>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>>>>>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>>>>>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>>>>>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>>>>>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>>>>>>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>>>>>>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>>>>>>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>>>>>>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>>>>>>> my LCD computer display screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
>>>>>> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
>>>>>> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
>>>>> than room temperature.
>>>>
>>>> Again, the surface may not be much more than room temperature but the
>>>> surface temperature of the fixture isn't important to the LEDs
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ;~) I'm just saying that some LED's can remain on 24/7 and not be even
>>> warm to the touch, others will burn you after a few hours.
>>>
>> Hot water can burn you, too. As long as it's in the thermos, you're
>> safe, though. If you put it in a Styrofoam cup and stick it between
>> your legs, while driving, bad things are more likely to happen. ;-)
>>
>> That doesn't mean both coffees aren't hot.
>>
>
>BUT the thermos has a giant separation between the coffee and your hand.
> With ribbon LED's you can directly touch the circuitry and LED's that
>are attached to the ribbon.
No, you're not. There is a big hunk of plastic, or three, between
your finger and the active bits.
>Front to back the LED ribbon is about 3/32" thick that includes the
>adhesive backing, ribbon, printed circuit and the LED. There is nothing
>keeping you from touching any of those components. LED ribbon is not
>totally unlike a printed circuit board except it and the components are
>much thinner and very flexible.
I'm sure it is a printed circuit (AKA "flex circuit"). That doesn't
change the fact that you're *not* touching the LED junction itself.
>
>http://www.comlite-led.com/img/p/thickbox/236-2438-thickbox.jpg
>
>The numerous paired gold contacts are about 1" apart, that is where you
>cut to length with scissors to attach a pigtail for power.
\\
On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>
>>> -BR
>>>
>>
>>
>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>
>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>
> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>
I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so ever.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
>
> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
>
> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
> causes vibration heating.
But in actual tests is that the major failure
mode of commercial LED lighting?
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 11/19/16 8:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >>
> >> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
> >> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
> >>
> >> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
> >> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
> >> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
> >> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
> >>
> >> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
> >> causes vibration heating.
> >
> > But in actual tests is that the major failure
> > mode of commercial LED lighting?
> >
>
> At least for consumer lighting, the failure point is typically the power
> supply, more specifically the electrolytic capacitors which dry out and
> are degraded by heat.
Based on forensic analysis of how many failures
of consumer LED replacement bulbs over what span
of time?
> The LEDs do fail, mostly from the same heat
> degrading the thermal bond between the actual LED emitter and the heat
> sink, but often the root cause of this is poor assembly. LEDs as devices
> are very stable and robust, as long as they operate within there design
> specs for maximum junction temp.
>
> -BR
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 11/20/16 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> > On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
> >> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
> >>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
> >>> ever.
> >>
> >> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
> >> heat sinks.
> >>
> >> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
> >> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
> >> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
> >> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
> >> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
> >> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
> >> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
> >> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
> >> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
> >>
> >> -BR
> >>
> >
> >
> > Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
> > lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
> > some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
> > seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
> > on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
> > my LCD computer display screen.
>
>
> I grok!
>
> It all comes down to the power consumed by the devices. 60 Watts of
> power has to go somewhere, some into actual photons (light), the rest
> into heat. This heat, as far as the LED, an be considered a point
> source. Some gets radiated away, the rest gets moved into the
> surrounding heat sink *or any other contacting material that conducts heat).
>
> -BR
60 watts is an effing HUGE consumer LED light
bulb though.
The flourescent tube replacements are typically
17 watts for a four foot tube and a replacement
for a 100 watt incandescent typically draws 14.
60 watts would have light output in the same
ballpark as a 400 watt incandescent--this is way
outside the typical "consumer" range.
Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
causes vibration heating.
Martin
On 11/19/2016 8:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 5:56:49 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>
>>>> -BR
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>>
>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>
>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>
> How do it know?
>
On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>> ever.
>
> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
> heat sinks.
>
> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>
> -BR
>
Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
my LCD computer display screen.
On 11/19/2016 5:56 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>
>>> -BR
>>>
>>
>>
>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>
>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>
> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>
Correct, most High output Leds have heat sinks and the lights themselves
get hot.
A friend bought me a Nitecore flashlight for woodworking I did for him
and some machining. The light from it can light up a building 600 feet
away like daylight. When it's on highpower the glass on the front gets
hot, and the front end gets hot.
Also if you look on youtube you will see led flashlights that require
cooling.
--
Jeff
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 10:06:23 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
>
> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
>
> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
> causes vibration heating.
>
> Martin
>
> On 11/19/2016 8:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 5:56:49 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
> >> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
> >>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
> >>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
> >>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
> >>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
> >>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
> >>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
> >>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
> >>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
> >>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
> >>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
> >>>>
> >>>> -BR
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
> >>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
> >>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
> >>>
> >>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
> >>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
> >>
> >> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
> >> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
> >> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
> >> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
> >
> > How do it know?
> >
Sorry, you missed (or never heard) the joke.
There are a number of variations. The safest one is...
A teacher was telling her class about the greatest invention ever: The
Thermos Bottle. "It keeps cold stuff cold and hot stuff hot".
One perplexed student asked her: "How do it know?"
On 11/19/16 8:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
>> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
>>
>> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
>> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
>> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
>> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
>>
>> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
>> causes vibration heating.
>
> But in actual tests is that the major failure
> mode of commercial LED lighting?
>
At least for consumer lighting, the failure point is typically the power
supply, more specifically the electrolytic capacitors which dry out and
are degraded by heat. The LEDs do fail, mostly from the same heat
degrading the thermal bond between the actual LED emitter and the heat
sink, but often the root cause of this is poor assembly. LEDs as devices
are very stable and robust, as long as they operate within there design
specs for maximum junction temp.
-BR
On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
> ever.
I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
heat sinks.
Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
-BR
On 11/20/16 9:31 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> On 11/19/16 8:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
>>>> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
>>>>
>>>> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
>>>> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
>>>> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
>>>> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
>>>>
>>>> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
>>>> causes vibration heating.
>>>
>>> But in actual tests is that the major failure
>>> mode of commercial LED lighting?
>>>
>>
>> At least for consumer lighting, the failure point is typically the power
>> supply, more specifically the electrolytic capacitors which dry out and
>> are degraded by heat.
>
> Based on forensic analysis of how many failures
> of consumer LED replacement bulbs over what span
> of time?
I follow the LED industry as part curiosity and I also build some custom
LED lighting devices. This means I read a lot of stuff about failures
and always read through the various "tear-down" articles where they
dissect new lamps and also do forensics on failed units. With anything
electronic, the manufactures produce reliability figures (MTBF, mean
time between failures) for components and also degradation numbers tied
to life-killers like heat.
Some of the trade journals touch on this stuff. If you are really
curious (or really bored 8^)
http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/news/big-lie-about-led-lighting
http://www.osram-os.com/Graphics/XPic6/00102625_0.pdf
http://www.lumileds.com/uploads/167/WP15-pdf
http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2011/nov/understanding-and-preventing-led-failure
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/led_luminaire-lifetime-guide_june2011.pdf
http://d3eurf9v83z5xo.cloudfront.net/en_gb/oem/download/led_driver_lifetime/White_paper_LED_Driver_lifetime_reliability.pdf
Some general info, seems reasonable given the source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LED_failure_modes
-BR
>
>> The LEDs do fail, mostly from the same heat
>> degrading the thermal bond between the actual LED emitter and the heat
>> sink, but often the root cause of this is poor assembly. LEDs as devices
>> are very stable and robust, as long as they operate within there design
>> specs for maximum junction temp.
>>
>> -BR
>
>
On 11/20/16 2:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>> ever.
>>
>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>> heat sinks.
>>
>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>
>> -BR
>>
>
>
> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
> my LCD computer display screen.
I grok!
It all comes down to the power consumed by the devices. 60 Watts of
power has to go somewhere, some into actual photons (light), the rest
into heat. This heat, as far as the LED, an be considered a point
source. Some gets radiated away, the rest gets moved into the
surrounding heat sink *or any other contacting material that conducts heat).
-BR
On 11/21/16 9:02 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> 60 watts is an effing HUGE consumer LED light
> bulb though.
>
> The flourescent tube replacements are typically
> 17 watts for a four foot tube and a replacement
> for a 100 watt incandescent typically draws 14.
> 60 watts would have light output in the same
> ballpark as a 400 watt incandescent--this is way
> outside the typical "consumer" range.
>
>
>
Sorry, I was thinking incandescent equivalent when I was intending the
LED equivalent.
-BR
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:02:05 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
> >> >
> >> >"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
> >> >
> >> >About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
> >> >screw
> >> >in. I liked them, nice and bright.
> >> >http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
> >>
> >> Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
> >> to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
> >> par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
> > box,
> > the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
> > and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.
> >
> > It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.
>
> I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work fine
> in a residence for more than a few months.
> >
That was Scott's (and my) point.
The name on the box is "Commercial Electric", which might make some people
*think* that the fixtures are commercial grade. Scott feels it is dishonest
to even imply that they are commercial grade by using the word "Commercial"
on the box, even if it's just the name of the product line. I was simply
saying that I, for one, am not in any way fooled by the name on the box.
I can, however, certainly see those words fooling some people.
On 11/17/2016 8:14 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
>> the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
>> email server. Before the WWW came along...
>
> And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
> the "www came along ...":
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>
Tahw?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:41:42 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:
>
>> Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
>> appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
>> the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
>
>Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
>white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
>can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
>little different.
Indeed it is and our memory for such things is really lousy. The
brain adjusts color of objects to match what we think they should be
(automatic color balancing, if you will). This can lead to some odd
effects. It's also why I can't tell the difference between black,
blue, or brown sox in the morning. Blue and brown sox are banned from
the house. ;-)
On 11/17/2016 11:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/17/2016 8:14 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>>> Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
>>>> the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
>>>> email server. Before the WWW came along...
>>>
>>> And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
>>> the "www came along ...":
>>>
>>> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
>>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>>> A: Top-posting.
>>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Tahw?
>
> Hold it in front of an upside down mirror.
>
LOL. I probably should have remarked, ?tahW
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco
>> leds.
>>
>
>They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in the
>long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their life
>expectancy.
I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs in
the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>> life expectancy.
>>
>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>
>
>But it's not even a debatable issue.
>My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>at least 2 fold.
>I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>A safe guess would be 20.
But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see but
I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20. Heat is
a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you want to
extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a beer-can
heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from the base)
will probably double its life.
>
>I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
On 11/21/2016 9:59 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/20/16 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/20/2016 7:19 AM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the
>>>>>>>>>> semiconductor
>>>>>>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>>>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>>>>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the
>>>>>>>>> "flood"
>>>>>>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with
>>>>>>>>> thermal mass.
>>>>>>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time
>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the
>>>>>>>>> bane of
>>>>>>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area
>>>>>>>>> going for
>>>>>>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>>>>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their
>>>>>>>> heat out
>>>>>>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the
>>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage
>>>>>>>> generates heat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that
>>>>>>>> run on
>>>>>>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>>>>>>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>>>>>>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get
>>>>>>> warm
>>>>>>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger.
>>>>>> Nothing. We
>>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what
>>>>>> so ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>>>> remotely warm.
>>>
>>> The part that creates the light. I don't know what sort of ribbon
>>> light this is but if it's designed for illumination, you can bet the
>>> junction is getting quite hot. If it's just for looks, it may be much
>>> lower power.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Well, not for looks, these light up our kitchen counter tops and the
>> length of my wife's long arm machine. Lighting is critical on the long
>> arm machine. But there are hundreds of LED's on that ribbon, IIRC 3 per
>> inch along 11 feet.
>
>
> I have them as under cabinet lights too, they are excellent!
>
> Spreading out the light is what they excel at. Lee Valley (and others)
> sell housings for them that provide a great way to mount them and have
> diffusers in clear, translucent and an "opal". The diffuser makes them
> look like a continuous bar of light instead of many little dots,
> important if you have shiny counters (though they do cut the light
> output quiet a bit).
>
> -BR
>
I thought about the diffuses, but opted for sticking directly to the
bottoms of the upper cabinets. We have shiny granite counter tops you
you do see each individual LED in the reflection but is is not
distracting and It seems you have to be in just the right position to
notice the spots on the counter top. Any thing 3' out and you don't see
them at all. Closer you see them but they are simply spots that do not
distract.
On 11/21/2016 9:52 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/20/16 2:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/20/2016 10:29 AM, Markem wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>>>> remotely warm.
>>>
>>> The point where the light is emitted from will be hot. Getting rid of
>>> that heat is the secret of semiconductor life. How much current is at
>>> each led will determine how hot it is, well designed leds lights will
>>> not burn you a bad one will. The higher the current at the led the
>>> shorter the life of the led.
>>>
>>> In other words you picked the right led lighting system.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I have to think you have the answer. ;~)
>>
>> Either way, these are the last set I bought, the previous set was from
>> LeeValley. These weare about 1/2 price compared to :LeeValley
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM5KYFI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>
> Yep, 48 Watts over 600 LEDs and usually a small resistor for each 3 LEDs
> (in series) to knock down the current. These 3528 LEDs have typical
> forward voltages of about 3.4 Volts. Three in series (10.2 Volts) means
> the resistors dump about 15% of the power as heat (These usually are
> driven with a 12 Volt supply).
Are some LED's designed to run on 120 volt? I know about the LED lamps
that screw directly into a 120 volt socket, I was under the impression
that the voltage was converted to 12 volt and the heat was generated
from that conversion since the bulb does not get hot so much as the
electronics.
>
> As far as efficiency, the 3528s are near 100 Lumens per Watt which is
> very good, they produce light more efficiently than others (the color
> index is rather lousy though).
In this last case, the ribbon kit referenced above, the LED's put out a
day light color That was important to my wife as she wanted no color
added when looking at the material on a quilt. But fortunately unless
looking straight into the LED's they appear to be a little yellow and
dim. This is good to prevent seeing spots after looking at the string
of LED's.
>
> I usually purchase the parts separately, the LED strip can be had for $10
>
> https://www.amazon.com/SOLMORE-16-4Foot-Flexible-Decoration-Lighting/dp/B01335I8E8
>
>
> and a 12 volt laptop computer power supply for less than that.
>
> Requires a bit of assembly, but perfect for when I make built-in
> lighting for a project.
>
> -BR
>
I saw a lot of options but this kit had all the connectors, dimmer
switch and remote, power supply for $50. I was good with that
especially since I did not have to worry about compatibility.
On 11/20/2016 7:19 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>>>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>>>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>>>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>>>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>>>>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>>>>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>>>>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>>>>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>>>>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>>>>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so ever.
>>>
>>> But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
>>>
>>
>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>> remotely warm.
>
> The part that creates the light. I don't know what sort of ribbon
> light this is but if it's designed for illumination, you can bet the
> junction is getting quite hot. If it's just for looks, it may be much
> lower power.
>
Well, not for looks, these light up our kitchen counter tops and the
length of my wife's long arm machine. Lighting is critical on the long
arm machine. But there are hundreds of LED's on that ribbon, IIRC 3 per
inch along 11 feet.
The best ones have a FET in series that acts as a current driver and
delivers the proper value. No resistors - FET and Diode on the tiny
chip. Supply voltage varies and has a useful range - LEDs (Diodes) are
in parallel since the FET is in series with it. The driver then dumps
and maintains say 4-5v and all regulate and shine. One goes out and the
rest are on.
That is the best way but not the cheap way.
Martin
On 11/21/2016 9:52 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/20/16 2:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/20/2016 10:29 AM, Markem wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>>>> remotely warm.
>>>
>>> The point where the light is emitted from will be hot. Getting rid of
>>> that heat is the secret of semiconductor life. How much current is at
>>> each led will determine how hot it is, well designed leds lights will
>>> not burn you a bad one will. The higher the current at the led the
>>> shorter the life of the led.
>>>
>>> In other words you picked the right led lighting system.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I have to think you have the answer. ;~)
>>
>> Either way, these are the last set I bought, the previous set was from
>> LeeValley. These weare about 1/2 price compared to :LeeValley
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM5KYFI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>
> Yep, 48 Watts over 600 LEDs and usually a small resistor for each 3 LEDs
> (in series) to knock down the current. These 3528 LEDs have typical
> forward voltages of about 3.4 Volts. Three in series (10.2 Volts) means
> the resistors dump about 15% of the power as heat (These usually are
> driven with a 12 Volt supply).
>
> As far as efficiency, the 3528s are near 100 Lumens per Watt which is
> very good, they produce light more efficiently than others (the color
> index is rather lousy though).
>
> I usually purchase the parts separately, the LED strip can be had for $10
>
> https://www.amazon.com/SOLMORE-16-4Foot-Flexible-Decoration-Lighting/dp/B01335I8E8
>
>
> and a 12 volt laptop computer power supply for less than that.
>
> Requires a bit of assembly, but perfect for when I make built-in
> lighting for a project.
>
> -BR
>
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>>>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>>>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>>>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>>>
>>>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>>>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>>>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>>>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so ever.
>>
>> But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
>>
>
>Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>remotely warm.
The part that creates the light. I don't know what sort of ribbon
light this is but if it's designed for illumination, you can bet the
junction is getting quite hot. If it's just for looks, it may be much
lower power.
On 11/19/16 9:21 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:15:59 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> But in actual tests is that the major failure
>> mode of commercial LED lighting?
>
> Commercial or residential? I know it's the failure mechanism in
> residential LED lighting. Commercial may be better. Or not.
>
The "better" LED lights are those designed as a fixture with the LEDs
separate from the power supplies. It's all heat management. Trying to
cram lots of Lumens into a standard dimension Edison style bulb that is
crammed into a fixture that has no provisions for air flow is really
pushing it.
-BR
On 11/20/16 2:06 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/20/2016 10:29 AM, Markem wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>>> remotely warm.
>>
>> The point where the light is emitted from will be hot. Getting rid of
>> that heat is the secret of semiconductor life. How much current is at
>> each led will determine how hot it is, well designed leds lights will
>> not burn you a bad one will. The higher the current at the led the
>> shorter the life of the led.
>>
>> In other words you picked the right led lighting system.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> I have to think you have the answer. ;~)
>
> Either way, these are the last set I bought, the previous set was from
> LeeValley. These weare about 1/2 price compared to :LeeValley
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM5KYFI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
Yep, 48 Watts over 600 LEDs and usually a small resistor for each 3 LEDs
(in series) to knock down the current. These 3528 LEDs have typical
forward voltages of about 3.4 Volts. Three in series (10.2 Volts) means
the resistors dump about 15% of the power as heat (These usually are
driven with a 12 Volt supply).
As far as efficiency, the 3528s are near 100 Lumens per Watt which is
very good, they produce light more efficiently than others (the color
index is rather lousy though).
I usually purchase the parts separately, the LED strip can be had for $10
https://www.amazon.com/SOLMORE-16-4Foot-Flexible-Decoration-Lighting/dp/B01335I8E8
and a 12 volt laptop computer power supply for less than that.
Requires a bit of assembly, but perfect for when I make built-in
lighting for a project.
-BR
On 11/20/16 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/20/2016 7:19 AM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>>>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>>>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with
>>>>>>>> thermal mass.
>>>>>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time
>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the
>>>>>>>> bane of
>>>>>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area
>>>>>>>> going for
>>>>>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>>>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -BR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their
>>>>>>> heat out
>>>>>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the
>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage
>>>>>>> generates heat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that
>>>>>>> run on
>>>>>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>>>>>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>>>>>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>>>>>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger.
>>>>> Nothing. We
>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what
>>>>> so ever.
>>>>
>>>> But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>>> remotely warm.
>>
>> The part that creates the light. I don't know what sort of ribbon
>> light this is but if it's designed for illumination, you can bet the
>> junction is getting quite hot. If it's just for looks, it may be much
>> lower power.
>>
>
>
> Well, not for looks, these light up our kitchen counter tops and the
> length of my wife's long arm machine. Lighting is critical on the long
> arm machine. But there are hundreds of LED's on that ribbon, IIRC 3 per
> inch along 11 feet.
I have them as under cabinet lights too, they are excellent!
Spreading out the light is what they excel at. Lee Valley (and others)
sell housings for them that provide a great way to mount them and have
diffusers in clear, translucent and an "opal". The diffuser makes them
look like a continuous bar of light instead of many little dots,
important if you have shiny counters (though they do cut the light
output quiet a bit).
-BR
On 11/21/16 9:11 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Yep, 48 Watts over 600 LEDs and usually a small resistor for each 3 LEDs
>> (in series) to knock down the current. These 3528 LEDs have typical
>> forward voltages of about 3.4 Volts. Three in series (10.2 Volts) means
>> the resistors dump about 15% of the power as heat (These usually are
>> driven with a 12 Volt supply).
>
> Are some LED's designed to run on 120 volt? I know about the LED lamps
> that screw directly into a 120 volt socket, I was under the impression
> that the voltage was converted to 12 volt and the heat was generated
> from that conversion since the bulb does not get hot so much as the
> electronics.
>
>
Early LED lamps had a series of standard "gum-drop" style LEDs strung
such that the voltage across each LED was within spec when run directly*
from 120VAC
* There actually is a rectifier bridge to convert the AC to DC.
The first versions had horrible 120 cycle flicker, later versions added
a capacitor to help out. LED Christmas lights were also this way.
LEDs need a constant current source. If fed from a constant voltage
source, small variations in voltage and temperature can produce visible
changes in light output. Most, if not all LED bulbs run from an internal
constant current AC to DC convertor. The LED strips need the small
resistor so they can work with a "standard" 12VDC supply, but they will
(and do) vary in brightness. Most 12VDC supplies are regulated well
enough to avoid noticeable light variations (flicker), but the
temperature variations are still there, just very gradual.
>>
> I saw a lot of options but this kit had all the connectors, dimmer
> switch and remote, power supply for $50. I was good with that
> especially since I did not have to worry about compatibility.
Yes! From a man who has a Domino, I understand 8^)
You wanted a turn-key setup, not a chunk of steel you need to turn into
a chisel so you can chop a mortice. I like saving a few $$ so I can
spend a few extra hours searching for my spool of solder and ordering
new tips for my soldering iron. It's the way I roll 8^)
-BR
-BR
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>remotely warm.
The point where the light is emitted from will be hot. Getting rid of
that heat is the secret of semiconductor life. How much current is at
each led will determine how hot it is, well designed leds lights will
not burn you a bad one will. The higher the current at the led the
shorter the life of the led.
In other words you picked the right led lighting system.
Mark
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:15:59 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>> Simple - I used to design and test semiconductor material -
>> I started in the mid 70's and went pro in 1980.
>>
>> I remember some of the first high speed CMOS HMOS and NMOS
>> that ran really fast but shorted power to ground in the output
>> transistors in the process. It seemed ok in theory - but after
>> millions of cycles the part melted the epoxy off the IC !
>>
>> All semiconductor heats up. It is conducting current. Current flow
>> causes vibration heating.
>
>But in actual tests is that the major failure
>mode of commercial LED lighting?
Commercial or residential? I know it's the failure mechanism in
residential LED lighting. Commercial may be better. Or not.
On 11/20/2016 10:29 AM, Markem wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:54:21 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>> remotely warm.
>
> The point where the light is emitted from will be hot. Getting rid of
> that heat is the secret of semiconductor life. How much current is at
> each led will determine how hot it is, well designed leds lights will
> not burn you a bad one will. The higher the current at the led the
> shorter the life of the led.
>
> In other words you picked the right led lighting system.
>
> Mark
>
I have to think you have the answer. ;~)
Either way, these are the last set I bought, the previous set was from
LeeValley. These weare about 1/2 price compared to :LeeValley
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VM5KYFI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:53:54 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>>> 4 footers.
>>
>> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
>> PDF, takes a while).
>> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>>
>> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
>> want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>>
>>
>
>My actual experience would contradict that.
>Lumens are lumens.
Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
>of fluorescent tubes.
>
>Notice the date of that study. LED technology is improving at a rate
>that rivals solid state memory storage.
Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
email server. Before the WWW came along...
Martin
On 11/13/2016 9:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/13/16 8:57 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>
>> I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
> Yet you still top post. :-p
>
>
Gramps' shop wrote:
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
>
The mainest thing is the ballast. I had T12's with the old style
ballasts and they would fart around and blink and give poor light in
the winter. Changed them to T8 with electronic ballast. They pop
right on, even on cold mornings and including the one in the outside shed.
--
GW Ross
Dyslexics have more fnu.
On 11/13/2016 9:31 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>>>> life expectancy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>>>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>>>> at least 2 fold.
>>>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>>>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
>>>> fail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
>>
>>
>> Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
> Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?
>
In the closet and laundry room two times. LOL.
It was the iPad this time ;~)
On 11/12/2016 6:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco
>> leds.
>>
>
> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in the
> long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their life
> expectancy.
>
>
I am hoping that will be true. I have switched out 5 PAR40 incandescent
bulbs in our kitchen to Feit LED about a year ago. One of the bulbs has
already failed, fortunately Feit sent me a replacement.
Also we have 9 ceiling fans in our home, all but 1 have 4 candelabra
incandescent lamps, 32 of those suckers. Unfortunately they are more
for looks than longevity. Anyway I have replaced 8 lamps with LED
candelabra bulbs in the 2 fans that we typically have on most of the
day. I hope they last! :!)
On 11/13/2016 9:48 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 11/13/2016 9:31 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> ...
>
>> And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
>> Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?
>
> Grammar ain't spelling... :)
>
>
>
>
LOL. A little bit spell'n and a little bit of taking my comment out of
context.
Should have said, in the closet and laundry room two times. "Times" was
on the next line, but left out. ;~)
On 11/12/2016 1:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
>> footers.
>
> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a PDF, takes
> a while).
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>
> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you want max
> light, use fluorescent (use electronic ballast)
>
>
Even ignoring the age of the report, I don't see how you reached that
conclusion. Quoting from the report:
"Dedicated LED troffers are ready to compete with fluorescent troffers
in terms of efficacy (lumens per watt [lm/W]), and in many lighting
quality issues such as glare, light distribution, visual appearance, and
color quality.
That is not to say that each one is stellar, but each one tested in this
CALiPER study bested the fluorescent benchmarks in terms of efficacy,
and almost all were rated highly in several categoriesonly one
luminaire of twelve performed consistently poorly."
and
"To summarize the experience of the observers, LEDs have not improved
recessed troffers. But they have made them more efficient.
To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you want
max light, use more LEDs.
My fluorescent are being replaced with (non-ballasted) LEDs in the house
and shop just as fast as I use up my stock of fluorescent bulbs. I wish
the stockpile was smaller, but the upside is that LEDs are still getting
less expensive. If I were buying new lights, I would not even look at
fluorescent.
On 11/12/16 10:28 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
> footers.
>
Look at LED! I couldn't be happier with the Feit LED shop lights I got
from Costco. They now sell separate LED "tubes" for retrofit in
existing fixtures.
They use a fraction of the energy, run much cooler, and produce
wonderful, cool, light, with no ugly green tint like most florescent
tube.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
> footers.
More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a PDF, takes
a while).
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you want max
light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>> 4 footers.
>
> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
> PDF, takes a while).
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>
> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
> want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>
>
My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.
My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
of fluorescent tubes.
Notice the date of that study. LED technology is improving at a rate
that rivals solid state memory storage.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco
> leds.
>
They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in the
long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their life
expectancy.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>>
>>>>> -BR
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>>>
>>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>>
>>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so ever.
>
> But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
>
Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
remotely warm.
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:14:24 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 5:56:49 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>> >> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>> >>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>> >>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>> >> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>> >> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>> >> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>> >> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>> >> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>> >> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>> >> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>> >>
>> >> -BR
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>> >put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>> >is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>> >
>> >I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>> >12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>
>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>
>How do it know?
Well, it's not a Crapsman. ;-)
On 11/20/2016 10:05 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/19/16 9:54 PM, Leon wrote:
> s.
>>>
>>
>> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
>> remotely warm.
>>
>
> Those LEDs (3528s) have ceramic cases. The heat is conducted through the
> electrical contacts to the copper traces in the ribbon. At 0.08 Watts,
> that heat is dissipated quickly.
>
> -BR
>
Even still, dissipated quickly or not one would think that if you are
touching, pressing your finger hard enough into the ribbon to leave an
imprint that you would feel something.
On 11/19/16 9:54 PM, Leon wrote:
s.
>>
>
> Define junction on ribbon LED lighting. No where on the ribbon gets
> remotely warm.
>
Those LEDs (3528s) have ceramic cases. The heat is conducted through the
electrical contacts to the copper traces in the ribbon. At 0.08 Watts,
that heat is dissipated quickly.
-BR
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/19/2016 4:56 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:47:06 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>>>>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>>>>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
>>>> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
>>>> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
>>>> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
>>>> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
>>>> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
>>>> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
>>>> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>>>>
>>>> -BR
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
>>> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
>>> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
>>>
>>> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
>>> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
>>
>> You can bet that the semiconductor junctions are getting warm. The
>> fact that the surface isn't may also mean that the semiconductors
>> inside are getting downright toasty. My thermos mug doesn't get warm
>> on the outside, even when filled with very hot coffee.
>>
>
>
>I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so ever.
But you can't touch the junction, which is what counts.
On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>> Costco leds.
>>>
>>
>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>> life expectancy.
>
> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>
But it's not even a debatable issue.
My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
at least 2 fold.
I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
A safe guess would be 20.
I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>> ever.
>>
>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>> heat sinks.
>>
>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>
>> -BR
>>
>
>
>Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>my LCD computer display screen.
No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>> ever.
>>>
>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>> heat sinks.
>>>
>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>
>>> -BR
>>>
>>
>>
>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>> my LCD computer display screen.
>
> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>
I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
than room temperature.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> But it's not even a debatable issue.
> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
> at least 2 fold.
> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
> A safe guess would be 20.
>
> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
My fluorescent experiences...
Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
On 11/13/16 7:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>> life expectancy.
>>>
>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>> at least 2 fold.
>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>
>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>>
>>
>
> I find glad resent love gating iffy. Our home is 6 years old and I have
> had to change the fluorescent tubes in the class set and laundry room two
> times.
> 2 weeks after moving in I installed 4, 4 tube floor resent lights fixtures
> in the garage. In 6 years I have not had to replace any of the T8 bulbs
> but have had to replace 2 electronic ballasts in 2 of the fixtures. Go
> figure.
> I think the ballasts have a lot to do with tube life.
>
> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
Hitting the bottle early today Leon 8^)
Ballasts are key to good fluorescent tube life. Cheap electronic
ballasts are tube killers, it basically comes down to how much of the
phosphor coating is blasted away at the tube ends when they start up. It
is tough to beat a quality old-school transformer ballast, though they
suck at efficiency.
The tubes lose 10% of their brightness within the first few hours of
operation. LEDs are not much more efficient...yet. there are LEDs that
are more than double the efficiency, but they have not yet trickled into
commercial products at low price points quite yet (soon!). The LED
retrofit tubes gain there efficiency claims over florescent tubes simply
from having all the light directed downwards, no losses from having 1/2
the light reach the floor via the fixtures reflectors (and they don't
have the sharp initial lumen drop-off that florescents experience).
-BR
On 11/13/16 6:31 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>> at least 2 fold.
>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>
>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>
> My fluorescent experiences...
>
> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>
> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>
> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
>
>
Well, we both had very different experiences.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/13/16 10:18 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/12/2016 6:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco
>>> leds.
>>>
>>
>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in the
>> long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their life
>> expectancy.
>>
>
> I am hoping that will be true. I have switched out 5 PAR40 incandescent
> bulbs in our kitchen to Feit LED about a year ago. One of the bulbs has
> already failed, fortunately Feit sent me a replacement.
>
> Also we have 9 ceiling fans in our home, all but 1 have 4 candelabra
> incandescent lamps, 32 of those suckers. Unfortunately they are more
> for looks than longevity. Anyway I have replaced 8 lamps with LED
> candelabra bulbs in the 2 fans that we typically have on most of the
> day. I hope they last! :!)
>
Unfortunately, the tubes and bulbs are apples and oranges, somewhat.
I think there's more room in the tubes fixtures for the electronics and
heat dissipation.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
>> fail.
>
> My fluorescent experiences...
>
> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>
> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>
> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
the electric supply.
My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
> appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
> the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
little different.
--
But there is no path through the woods.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>>> 4 footers.
>>
>> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
>> PDF, takes a while).
>> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>>
>> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
>> want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>>
>>
>
> My actual experience would contradict that.
> Lumens are lumens.
That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
than do T-8 fluorescents.
However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
similar for both.
In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
tubes.
In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
bright.
> My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
> of fluorescent tubes.
How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
"daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?
On 11/13/16 12:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>
>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting
>>> to fail.
>>
>> My fluorescent experiences...
>>
>> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>>
>> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>>
>> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
>
>
> It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability
> of the electric supply.
>
> My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes
> every year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it
> myself. Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.
>
May also have to do with price/quality.
As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the equation.
Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one
can cost.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/13/16 1:15 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
>>>> 4 footers.
>>>
>>> More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
>>> PDF, takes a while).
>>> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_recessed-troffer_2013.pdf
>>>
>>> To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
>>> want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>> Lumens are lumens.
>
> That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
> than do T-8 fluorescents.
>
Not all LED tubes are equal, to the best of my knowledge.
> However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
> while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
> of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
> similar for both.
>
Interesting observation and again, not all are the same design.
However, on that tangent, I actually took the reflectors off mine
because I was getting more reflection from my white ceiling than the
fixture reflectors.
> In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
> effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
> fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
> tubes.
>
> In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
> trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
> light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
> the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
> capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
> bright.
>
>> My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
>> of fluorescent tubes.
>
> How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
> "daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?
>
With my eyes. :-)
I could see a lot better.
Everything was lighted up with not dark spots in the room.
Everyday, any time of day/night, any weather, all the time.
FWIW, in video production we considered daylight to be midday with
evenly overcast skies.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:30:02 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:
>> It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
>> the electric supply.
>>
>> My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
>> year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
>> Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.
>
> May also have to do with price/quality.
> As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the
> equation.
> Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
> bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one can
> cost.
In my case, both sites had the cheap fixtures and tubes on sale at the
Borg. In fact, most of the fixtures moved with me.
--
But there is no path through the woods.
On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper
>>>> in the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND
>>>> their life expectancy.
>>>
>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
>>> another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
>>> incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
>>> outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
>> outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2 fold. I
>> would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them. A
>> safe guess would be 20.
>
> But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see
> but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20.
> Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you
> want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a
> beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from
> the base) will probably double its life.
>
Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
Mine don't even run warm.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/13/16 8:44 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on
>>>>>>> the Costco leds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT
>>>>>> cheaper in the long run when you consider their energy
>>>>>> consumption AND their life expectancy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
>>>>> another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
>>>>> incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
>>>>> outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
>>>> outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2
>>>> fold. I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out
>>>> of them. A safe guess would be 20.
>>>
>>> But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll
>>> see but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less
>>> 20. Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*.
>>> If you want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED
>>> "bulbs", a beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan
>>> radiating away from the base) will probably double its life.
>>>
>>
>> Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we
>> still trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond
>> me) get hot, but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the
>> tube versions. Mine don't even run warm.
>
> Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.
>
My point is there's a lot more room for the heat to dissipate in a 4ft.
tube than in a tiny little bulb-sized cluster, which would easily
explain the longer life span using your criteria for the reason for
failure.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/13/16 8:57 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>
> I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.
>
> Martin
>
Yet you still top post. :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 11/14/2016 8:17 AM, Swingman wrote:
...
> I've changed 1, of 10, shop T-8's in 14 years.
>
> I keep them on 24/7.
OTOH, earlier this summer I changed out the shop tubes for first time in
15 yr since came back to the farm and installed them as one of first
items of business in setting up a work area in preparation for the
reroof/restoration project. They've been quite intermittent in
operation most of that time...
--
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
Within 3 months, one began flickering badly. Another month or so and a
second began flickering, A month or so later the flickering was so bad that
they were unuseable so both were replaced with similar incandescent bulb
fixtures. The replaced lights had a 5 year warranty but I didn't bother
with it, HD receipt was long gone and even if I had it, the warranty has a
"not OUR fault" clause' moreover, the only remedy was repair or replace and
I didn't want another..
Four or five months later, the third began flickering too. It is still
flickering, light outbut is maybe 10% of the original. It too will be
replaced when I get around to it. That's $90 + 7% tax down the drain. No
more LEDs for me.
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:O%[email protected]...
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>
>>> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>>>
>>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>>
>>About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
>>screw
>>in. I liked them, nice and bright.
>>http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>
> Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
> to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
> par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
>
> It also turns out that the flickering in those
> fixtures is sometimes caused by chafed wiring, which is
> easily repaired.
Or faulty switches. In my case, both switches and wiring were fine.
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >
>> >"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>> >>
>> >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>> >
>> >About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
>> >screw
>> >in. I liked them, nice and bright.
>> >http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>>
>> Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
>> to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
>> par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
>>
>
> FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
> box,
> the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
> and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.
>
> It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.
I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work fine
in a residence for more than a few months.
>
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:02:05 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>> >> >
>> >> >About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in,
>> >> >not
>> >> >screw
>> >> >in. I liked them, nice and bright.
>> >> >http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>> >>
>> >> Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
>> >> to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
>> >> par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.
>> >>
>> >
>> > FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
>> > box,
>> > the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First
>> > Roofing
>> > and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.
>> >
>> > It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.
>>
>> I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work
>> fine
>> in a residence for more than a few months.
>> >
>
> That was Scott's (and my) point.
>
> The name on the box is "Commercial Electric", which might make some people
> *think* that the fixtures are commercial grade. Scott feels it is
> dishonest
> to even imply that they are commercial grade by using the word
> "Commercial"
> on the box, even if it's just the name of the product line. I was simply
> saying that I, for one, am not in any way fooled by the name on the box.
> I can, however, certainly see those words fooling some people.
Oh, OK
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:14:40 -0600, Swingman wrote:
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
I Haven't seen that one in a while, but alas, 'tis still true.
--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
On 11/16/16 8:00 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/16/2016 12:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
>>> filter out the blue.
>>
>> Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts
>> with a blue
>> LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
>> Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the
>> tube) and
>> generate visible light with phosphors.
>>
>
>
> Excuse me for using the wrong terminology. But with out the yellow you
> get blue, the point I was trying to make. ;!)
There is no mercy on the wreck!
It is these phosphor mixes that are driving the LED lighting market.
Very difficult and proprietary tech. Need a great UV light source? Get
one of those Phillips bulbs with the phosphor coating on the bulb
envelope and remove that envelop. All the creepy crawlies like scorpions
will glow brightly in you garage/shop at night....
-BR
On 11/14/16 9:00 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-7-in-4000K-White-LED-Easy-Utility-Light-54606241/205890895
>
> About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
> in. I liked them, nice and bright.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Brushed-Nickel-LED-Flushmount-HUI8011LL-BN/205148593
>
> Within 3 months, one began flickering badly. Another month or so and a
> second began flickering, A month or so later the flickering was so bad that
> they were unuseable so both were replaced with similar incandescent bulb
> fixtures. The replaced lights had a 5 year warranty but I didn't bother
> with it, HD receipt was long gone and even if I had it, the warranty has a
> "not OUR fault" clause' moreover, the only remedy was repair or replace and
> I didn't want another..
>
> Four or five months later, the third began flickering too. It is still
> flickering, light outbut is maybe 10% of the original. It too will be
> replaced when I get around to it. That's $90 + 7% tax down the drain. No
> more LEDs for me.
>
>
LEDs are one of those products where quality varies widely and usually
is in no way related to price. You can always crack one open to
determine quality, but the easiest way is to heed reliable reviews and
look for a good warranty.
-BR
On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>
> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>
An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
(exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
mitigate any advantages 8^)
-BR
On 11/19/16 8:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>
> There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
> put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
> is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
Power supplies are sources of heat, but more likely the devices heat
sink is extended into the base where the power supply is enclosed.
>
> I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
> 12 volt and they do not even get warm.
The LEDs used in ribbons are not high power devices and there are
hundreds of them on a standard 16' reel. Each individual LED is only
dissipating a fraction of a watt.
-BR
>>>> My fluorescent experiences...
>>>> Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube
>>>> Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube
>>>> Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced
As others already replied, duty cycle is a major factor.
The business ones are usually on all day.
Home units are cycled many times a day,
and starting a flurorescent lamp is stressful on the lamp.
>I think you're onto something there. For the number of hours a
>fluorescent will run in a home, it's probably not worth the more
>expensive ballast.
I have the opposite experience.
I got an electronic ballast for a homebrew bedroom lamp
using a Philips PLL tube (thin "U" shape).
The lamp's lasted for many years with no visible weakening.
Instant on, no flicker to the eye or on my camera,
and it seems gentler to the tube than magnetic ballasts.
And it's silent.
-- jeffj
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper
>>>>> in the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND
>>>>> their life expectancy.
>>>>
>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
>>>> another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
>>>> incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
>>>> outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
>>> outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2 fold. I
>>> would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them. A
>>> safe guess would be 20.
>>
>> But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see
>> but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20.
>> Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you
>> want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a
>> beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from
>> the base) will probably double its life.
>>
>
>Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
>trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
>but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
>Mine don't even run warm.
Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.
On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:50:56 -0700, Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 11/19/16 9:21 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:15:59 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> But in actual tests is that the major failure
>>> mode of commercial LED lighting?
>>
>> Commercial or residential? I know it's the failure mechanism in
>> residential LED lighting. Commercial may be better. Or not.
>>
>
>The "better" LED lights are those designed as a fixture with the LEDs
>separate from the power supplies. It's all heat management. Trying to
>cram lots of Lumens into a standard dimension Edison style bulb that is
>crammed into a fixture that has no provisions for air flow is really
>pushing it.
No, it's all heat management. Separating the supply from the business
end may, or may not, be part of that.
On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:42:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>>> ever.
>>>>
>>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>>> heat sinks.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>>
>>>> -BR
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>>> my LCD computer display screen.
>>
>> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
>> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
>> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>>
>
>I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
>than room temperature.
Again, the surface may not be much more than room temperature but the
surface temperature of the fixture isn't important to the LEDs
reliability.
On 11/20/2016 8:10 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:42:24 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2016 5:11 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:10:07 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2016 10:02 AM, Brewster wrote:
>>>>> On 11/19/16 9:35 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cab pinch the ribbon LED beteen my thumb and my finger. Nothing. We
>>>>>> leace these lamps on in our kitchen 24/7 and there is not heat what so
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> I use a lot of these LED strips in lighting projects, never need any
>>>>> heat sinks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically the typical LED used in strips is the "3528" surface mount
>>>>> device. 4 to 8 Lumens at 0.06 to 0.08 Watts of power. Even the "high
>>>>> density" strips with 600 of these parts (over 16') dissipates less than
>>>>> 50 Watts. Higher power LEDs (5050s) are only 1/4 Watt each.
>>>>> It is when you get into the arrays (more common in point source
>>>>> lights/bulbs) that dissipate 12+ Watts that the heat is palpable (it'll
>>>>> burn your finger, DAMHIK), Physically they are a "blob" about 3/4"
>>>>> diameter, mounted on a 1" sq. aluminum plate which is thermally bonded
>>>>> to whatever heat sink the bulb has.
>>>>>
>>>>> -BR
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Understood but the point I am trying to make is that not all LED
>>>> lighting gets hot. I have single bulbs that get hot at the base and
>>>> some at best get ever so slightly warm after touching for several
>>>> seconds. All of the cool ones are attached to a wood product and stay
>>>> on for hundreds/thousands of hours at one time. I get more warmth from
>>>> my LCD computer display screen.
>>>
>>> No, all get hot. How hot is the difference between ones that will
>>> last and ones that won't. Note that "not that hot" may be enough to
>>> burn a finger (100C or above), if you could touch it.
>>>
>>
>> I going to agree that hot is relative. My LED's don't get much more
>> than room temperature.
>
> Again, the surface may not be much more than room temperature but the
> surface temperature of the fixture isn't important to the LEDs
> reliability.
>
;~) I'm just saying that some LED's can remain on 24/7 and not be even
warm to the touch, others will burn you after a few hours.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:31:56 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>>>> life expectancy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>>>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>>>> at least 2 fold.
>>>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>>>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>>>
>>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
>>
>>
>> Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
>Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?
I laugh at SWMBO's text messages. She never reads them before
sending. Some are really funny.
On 11/13/2016 10:01 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/13/16 7:05 AM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
>>>>>> Costco leds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
>>>>> the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
>>>>> life expectancy.
>>>>
>>>> I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
>>>> pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
>>>> in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But it's not even a debatable issue.
>>> My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
>>> at least 2 fold.
>>> I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
>>> A safe guess would be 20.
>>>
>>> I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I find glad resent love gating iffy. Our home is 6 years old and I have
>> had to change the fluorescent tubes in the class set and laundry room two
>> times.
>> 2 weeks after moving in I installed 4, 4 tube floor resent lights
>> fixtures
>> in the garage. In 6 years I have not had to replace any of the T8 bulbs
>> but have had to replace 2 electronic ballasts in 2 of the fixtures. Go
>> figure.
>> I think the ballasts have a lot to do with tube life.
>>
>
>> I find glad resent love gating iffy.
>
> Hitting the bottle early today Leon 8^)
One would think. LOL
>
> Ballasts are key to good fluorescent tube life. Cheap electronic
> ballasts are tube killers, it basically comes down to how much of the
> phosphor coating is blasted away at the tube ends when they start up. It
> is tough to beat a quality old-school transformer ballast, though they
> suck at efficiency.
I have always been told this but oddly I have had two electronic
ballasts fail long before the 6 year old bulbs. I guess these ballasts
just out right suddenly failed vs. slowly dying and showing signs.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>> > On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>> >>> Lumens are lumens.
>> >>
>> >> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
>> >> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
>> >> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>> >>
>> >
>> > The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
>> >
>>
>> Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
>> term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
>> hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
>... yes, as shown here:
>https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/Colour-Temperature-Chart.jpg
>
>Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
>appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
>the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
>
>https://goo.gl/cH3rUx
>
>https://goo.gl/VmyoK3
>
I wouldn't want 6500K for living areas but they're great for work
areas, including kitchens.
On 11/12/2016 10:44 AM, G. Ross wrote:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4
>> footers.
>>
> The mainest thing is the ballast. I had T12's with the old style
> ballasts and they would fart around and blink and give poor light in the
> winter. Changed them to T8 with electronic ballast. They pop right on,
> even on cold mornings and including the one in the outside shed.
>
My T8 with electronic ballasts do come on instantly but in cold weather
they are dim until warmed up.
On 11/13/2016 9:48 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My actual experience would contradict that.
>>>>> Lumens are lumens.
>>>>
>>>> Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
>>>> 2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
>>>> that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too
>>>
>>
>> Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
>> term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
>> hopefully capitolize on its popularity.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
> ... yes, as shown here:
> https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/Colour-Temperature-Chart.jpg
>
> Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
> appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
> the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.
It is an odd thing to comprehend. I used to hate LED lights, they ALL
looked blue and did not seem to have any illumination compared to
incandescent. I'm talking many years ago when LED flash lights were
first showing up.
Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
filter out the blue.
I have Phillips Alto Daylight 6500K T8's in my shop, 16 of them, and I
see no blue at all. BUT I just replaced the florescent screw in ceiling
bulbs in my shop to supplement the T8's and the lamps seem to cast a
slight touch of blue off of our white freezer. That was not there with
just the T8's. The new LED screw in lamps are 3700K, Go figure. I
guess they don't have enough yellow filter .
>
> https://goo.gl/cH3rUx
>
> https://goo.gl/VmyoK3
>
>
On 11/16/2016 12:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>
>> Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
>> filter out the blue.
>
> Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
> LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
> Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
> generate visible light with phosphors.
>
Excuse me for using the wrong terminology. But with out the yellow you
get blue, the point I was trying to make. ;!)
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:28:22 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.
Before I sold the farm I had a shop with 8 foot T12 bulbs in 7 nice
fixtures -2 bulbs each- with refective tops and they worked very well
but ballast life was poor and the last time I bought bulbs I had to
buy a whole box. $160 + tax.
For my new shop I bought only flush mount pure LEDs. No bulbs just a
strip of LEDs rated for 30,000 hours (12W 790 lumens) and came with a
5 year guarantee. A major investment but with no bulbs to burn out
and a 5 year guarantee I think I will come out ahead.
Time will tell and YMMV
Jim
On 11/19/2016 9:33 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 11/13/16 8:43 PM, krw wrote:
>
>>
>> It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
>> junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
>> overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
>>
>
>
> An old rule for electronics is 10 sq. inches of heat sink surface
> (exposed to room temp) for every Watt of power. Many of the "flood"
> style bulbs which don't have the room for this get by with thermal mass.
> They don't saturate the heat sink for 1-2 hours, giving you time to get
> your lighting task complete before damage begins. This is the bane of
> the Edison style bulb for LEDs. Tubes have the surface area going for
> them, but the cheaper tubes find a way to skimp on the aluminum to
> mitigate any advantages 8^)
>
> -BR
>
There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning LED's and their heat out
put. I have LED lamps that replaced incandescence bulbs and the light
is cool but the part that converts to the proper voltage generates heat.
I also have probably 20' of high density ribbon LED lights that run on
12 volt and they do not even get warm.