Help compare these mid-range saws - longish and needy

Both these saws look pretty impressive to me. Sears had both the 22114
and the 22104 on good sales just before Christmas, and I have been
kicking myself for not getting one then. When you were doing your
comparative shopping, did you look at the new Hitachi saw at Lowes? At
$499, it looks to be in the same ballpark with the Ridgid. It comes
with a caster set, which may or may not be good enough. I've read lots
of comments about Craftsman fence deflection, so it is one thing I
always check on the floor models. These fences *appear* to only lock
at the front with little stabilization at the rear. This scares me as
well.

Kirk


Mike W. wrote:
> OK WWing experts....
>
> Let me first start off by saying I have been watching for a used saw
for
> some time but nothing worth buying has shown up in the papers around
where I
> live. Also, I don't really want to mail order something as big as a
saw. I
> think there is too much risk involved with that for me so that rules
out
> Grizzly and General International among others.
>
> So, I've narrowed the saws in my price range down to the Ridgid
TS3650 and
> the new Craftsman 22114. I know there are a ton of posts about both
of the
> saws and I have read them for hours on end. But I still don't have a
clear
> cut winner because the upsides/downsides are so different. I will
itemize
> them and if you have a strong opinion about which issues are more
important
> or fatal, please post a reply.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ridgid TS3650
> Problem: Some models have arbor problems when using stacked dados.
Not a
> fatal flaw, but causes uneven bottoms. (No such issue with the
Craftsman)
> Notes: Ridgid is sending out replacements and I understand it's not
overly
> difficult to fix. Still, having to 'fix' something out of the box is

> dis-heartening.
>
> Problem: Wobbly Table. (The Craftsman is solid as a rock)
> Notes: Many say the wobble isn't that bad (and I concur based on
what I've
> seen and the P.O.S. I currently have), but can easily add bracing to
> virtually eliminate this flaw.
>
> Craftsman 22114
> Problem: Fence Deflection approaching 1/4 inch at rear on two models
I've
> seen without applying too much force.
> Notes: No fix that I know of. I'm not sure how much of an effect
this
> would have on its use, but any other brand saw I've seen doesnt have
this
> degree of deflection in the fence. The Ridgid locks down very tight
and
> straight based on line of site over the miter track. (Some argue
that the
> rear locking mechanism can be as bad or worse since it can 'lock' out
of
> square)
>
> General Notes about comparisons.
> I like both saws. On one hand, I like the 3/4 cabinet style of the
22114,
> but it weighs quite a bit more and doesn't come with a mobile base.
I would
> HAVE to buy one at the time of buying the saw because my shop space
is
> limited. The Herc-U-Lift on the TS3650 seems awesome.
>
> The fence deflection on the 22114 scares me more than any of the
TS3650
> issues because I don't have a 'fix' other than buy a Biesemeyer - out
of the
> question because of the price. OTOH, I'm not sure that the
deflection is
> that much of an issue. Does anyone have a thought of how bad that
will
> affect performance?
>
> The 22114 will end up costing nearly $200 more after getting the
mobile
> base.
>
> Finally, The TS3650 fences have a rip capacity that is offset giving
you
> like 36" to the right and 12" to the left while the 22114 is almost
centered
> giving you 24" to the right and 25" to the left. I havent sat down
to
> ponder too deeply, but it seems that having it offset and getting a
greater
> capacity to one side is better, but I could be wrong.
>
> I'm leaning towards the TS3650 knowing I'll be doing more
tweaking/fixing
> than I'd like... but everytime I get ready to go buy it I struggle to
go
> through with it. Sears and Home Depot are within line of site so I
have
> been back and forth giving them the 'once over' about 50 times and
still
> cant decide.
>
> Thanks for any info.

Way to ignore the original question. Very helpful.

My neighbor has a Delta contractor's saw, and for the money, I'm
unimpressed. It's a fine saw, but nothing special. There are much
better values out there in a contractor's saw.

John Grossbohlin wrote:

> Can we assume that a Sears, Lowe's or Home Depot is in your area? You
should
> be able to order a Delta or Jet saw through at least one of those
stores and
> have it shipped to the store. Then you can inspect it before taking
> delivery.
>
> John

Mike, I don't know where you live, and maybe you've done this already,
but General International has distributors all over N.America. I don't
know why you lump them into the "mail order" group; I bought my 50-185L
in a real brick-n-mortar shop.

Check the Distributors link at

http://www.general.ca/english/main.html

-Chris

Mike W. wrote:
> OK WWing experts....
>
> Let me first start off by saying I have been watching for a used saw
for
> some time but nothing worth buying has shown up in the papers around
where I
> live. Also, I don't really want to mail order something as big as a
saw. I
> think there is too much risk involved with that for me so that rules
out
> Grizzly and General International among others.
>

As long as we're reading into the OP, there was likely a Delta sitting
right next to the Ridgid when he checked it out. It's unlikely this
escaped consideration, and as such was rejected as an option -- out of
considerations of value for the $. You don't have to special order a
Delta, as my neighbor brought his home from the Borg in his truck the
same day.

/Just sayin'

John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Way to ignore the original question. Very helpful.
> >
> > My neighbor has a Delta contractor's saw, and for the money, I'm
> > unimpressed. It's a fine saw, but nothing special. There are much
> > better values out there in a contractor's saw.
> >
> > John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >
> >> Can we assume that a Sears, Lowe's or Home Depot is in your area?
You
> > should
> >> be able to order a Delta or Jet saw through at least one of those
> > stores and
> >> have it shipped to the store. Then you can inspect it before
taking
> >> delivery.
> >>
>
> Mike,
>
> If you recall the original poster had reservations about mail
ordering a saw
> which is why he was looking at the two he listed. I offered him a
suggestion
> on how he could get a Jet or Delta if he really wanted one. This
while not
> encountering the risk he was trying to avoid. Thus it was helpful.
>
> John

That's a pretty quick dismissal for no stated reason. Must be nice to
just spend extra money for a name. Probably a lot less stress that way,
and you're guaranteed to get a good saw without doing any homework.

Me? I have a practically unlimited budget for this hobby, but I'm a
penny pincher. Therefore /everything/ is worth considering. After
consideration, the field gets narrowed. Ridgid and Craftsman would be
there for me -- but none of the Delta/Jet/Powermatics would be (too
much $$, diminishing returns).

That is, of course, unless I could buy them used as the OP mentioned.

I've been making nice furniture for about 7 years now on a 1978
Craftsman contractor's saw I picked up for $100. No way my furniture
would be 10 times better or 10 times as fun to build with a $1000 saw
in my shop.

-Mike

Duane Bozarth wrote:
> "Mike W." wrote:
> >
> > OK WWing experts....
>
> Well, personally, I'd recommend changing the criteria...I don't think
> either of those options is worth considering, but if held gun to my
head
> I'd take the Ridgid over the Craftsman...

John Grossbohlin wrote:
> The only Delta saws I've seen in the local Borgs were direct drive
saws and
> contractor saws with the base fence and stamped steel wings.

HERE's our miscommunication problem! I've seen the iron winged Delta
contractor's saws at my local various Borgs.
Varying floor stocking.

Well, there you have it.

-Mike

Mike W. wrote:

> Problem: Fence Deflection approaching 1/4 inch at rear on two models I've
> seen without applying too much force.

I *don't* have any experience with the new models, or the new fence they
have, so I can only speak in generalities here. It sounds to me like what
you saw was probably a setup issue. The assembler probably didn't have
time or inclination to adjust everything correctly. I would imagine,
although, again, I do not know for a fact, that you can probably adjust
this problem away. Every fence I've played with has had some facility for
dealing with such issues. See if you can't get a look at the saw's manual
and read the adjustment procedure for yourself. For what the saw costs,
maybe you can talk the store guy into letting you attempt to adjust the one
in the store so that the fence works to your satisfaction, to prove it can
be done.

(They work for minimum wage plus commission, and that would be a pretty good
commission. He might just let you play with it. Maybe.)

> question because of the price. OTOH, I'm not sure that the deflection is
> that much of an issue. Does anyone have a thought of how bad that will
> affect performance?

It will be terrible to use if you can't fix that. I had a benchtop saw that
didn't lock very well at the back, and it would deflect at the worst times.
It caused me a lot of misery. A fence that can take a pretty solid whack
without moving is a must.

> Finally, The TS3650 fences have a rip capacity that is offset giving you
> like 36" to the right and 12" to the left while the 22114 is almost
> centered
> giving you 24" to the right and 25" to the left. I havent sat down to
> ponder too deeply, but it seems that having it offset and getting a
> greater capacity to one side is better, but I could be wrong.

I have an older Crapsman saw with an Align-a-Rip 24/24 on it. I've had it
about a year now. I haven't actually done any "serious" projects yet, for
various reasons, but I've done a number of "ugly" projects for around the
shop. I've cut up a fair amount of recycled plywood from a huge library
magazine rack I got for $2 at an auction, and have used every bit of the
fence capacity to the right. I haven't yet ever found a reason to have the
fence over to the left of the blade, and I have to work to conceive of one.

Another consideration is that, when adjusting the fence parallel to the
miter slot, after much screwing around, the closest I could get it was
0.004" or so out at the back, slanting to the right, away from the blade in
the normal cutting position. If I moved the fence to the left, it would be
slanting into the blade. I couldn't even use this left rip capacity
without re-adjusting the stupid fence, and spending another couple of hours
dicking around with the adjustment. I can't imagine it would ever be worth
it, and I'm thinking about just cutting the left ends of the rails off, so
I stop hitting them with my ass when I walk by.

So, in summary, I think the 24/24 concept is pretty useless. 12/36
definitely sounds more reasonable.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Mike Reed wrote:

> Way to ignore the original question. Very helpful.
>
> My neighbor has a Delta contractor's saw, and for the money, I'm
> unimpressed. It's a fine saw, but nothing special. There are much
> better values out there in a contractor's saw.

The only thing I saw about it that really set it apart was that it had
decidedly beefier trunnions than anything else in the same general price
range. Other than that, it was mostly sort of same old same old. I got
the impression that the biggest part of the considerable price difference
between it and its nearest neighbor went to pay for the blue triangle logos
on it in various places.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Mike W." wrote:
>
> OK WWing experts....

Well, personally, I'd recommend changing the criteria...I don't think
either of those options is worth considering, but if held gun to my head
I'd take the Ridgid over the Craftsman...

Mike -

I've got a Rigid Planer, and it has served well, I also have some older
Craftsman Iron.... I do think that the fence issue is important, but I'm
thinkin' I'd lean toward the Craftsman. It's bigger, heavier - both good...
and somehow I have a *little* more faith in Sears parts than whomever
happens to be leasing the Ridgid trademark this quarter.

The fence deflection on the saw may be incomplete or uncaring assembly -
remember, those saws were set up quickly for display - so it may well be
okay - 1/4" is HUGE and suggests (one would hope) more of something being
loose, rather than wholey inaccurate.

The capacity to the L/R depends - you can always use a circ saw or router
rough out/edge a larger part - it may be safer and easier overall, rather
than trying to wrestle sheet goods on a TS. Most of your work will be will
be under a foot, I'd imagine, so... there are always work-arounds. You may
be able to shift the rails to change capacities as well - so check,
otherwise, your remarks are correct.

I think you were smart to consider General Int'l... I'd pick a General over
either of the others, but you can get something green later.

Don't forget that the whole idea here is to do a really good job of cutting
your wood - so, while you are counting your $$$, make all of the effort
worthwhile and buy yourself a *really - REALLY* good sawblade -
Forressssstt - perhaps - the guy has to have some black magik going on in
his shop, and that blade will last you for years. Take the time to set the
saw up well and you will be one HAPPY camper... Think about Link Belts too,
maybe for your birthday or xmas....

After you have the saw all set up, the FIRST thing you should build yourself
is a small crosscut sled. Then, thank me. Let us know how things work out!

John Moorhead

s. These fences *appear* to only lock
>at the front with little stabilization at the rear. This scares me as
>well.
>
>Kirk
>
=======================
I have NOT even looked at these two saws..or actually compare the
fences

BUT I will never, ever, ...like... NO WAY
go back to owning a saw that had a fence that locked front and back...

Those kind of fences scare me.... give me the front locking t-square
fences anyday of the week...

Bob Griffiths

"Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK WWing experts....
>
> Let me first start off by saying I have been watching for a used saw for
> some time but nothing worth buying has shown up in the papers around where
> I live. Also, I don't really want to mail order something as big as a
> saw. I think there is too much risk involved with that for me so that
> rules out Grizzly and General International among others.
>
> So, I've narrowed the saws in my price range down to the Ridgid TS3650 and
> the new Craftsman 22114. I know there are a ton of posts about both of
> the

Can we assume that a Sears, Lowe's or Home Depot is in your area? You should
be able to order a Delta or Jet saw through at least one of those stores and
have it shipped to the store. Then you can inspect it before taking
delivery.

John

"Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Way to ignore the original question. Very helpful.
>
> My neighbor has a Delta contractor's saw, and for the money, I'm
> unimpressed. It's a fine saw, but nothing special. There are much
> better values out there in a contractor's saw.
>
> John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> Can we assume that a Sears, Lowe's or Home Depot is in your area? You
> should
>> be able to order a Delta or Jet saw through at least one of those
> stores and
>> have it shipped to the store. Then you can inspect it before taking
>> delivery.
>>

Mike,

If you recall the original poster had reservations about mail ordering a saw
which is why he was looking at the two he listed. I offered him a suggestion
on how he could get a Jet or Delta if he really wanted one. This while not
encountering the risk he was trying to avoid. Thus it was helpful.

John

"Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As long as we're reading into the OP, there was likely a Delta sitting
> right next to the Ridgid when he checked it out. It's unlikely this
> escaped consideration, and as such was rejected as an option -- out of
> considerations of value for the $. You don't have to special order a
> Delta, as my neighbor brought his home from the Borg in his truck the
> same day.


There wasn't much need to read into the OP's message... he pretty well
stated that he was risk averse to mail order and was looking only at what
was in the local stores.

The only Delta saws I've seen in the local Borgs were direct drive saws and
contractor saws with the base fence and stamped steel wings. If the OP
encountered the same in his local stores I don't blame him for rejecting
them in favor of the two saws he listed. The local Sears was stocking Jet
stationary tools but I haven't been in their tool department in a couple
years so I don't know if they still do. The OP may not have known that the
order option was available to him through those channels.

I'm well equipped with big iron, most of which I got exceptional deals on
through the now defunct local Woodworker's Warehouse. Between price
matching, sales and liquidation deals I filled my shop with tools similar to
those I see in the commercial shops in the area--3 HP cabinet saw, DJ-20,
etc. Only my drill press and floor model thickness planner didn't come from
that store.

John

I have the sears and I have used it for a few months. The fence does
deflect a little but a 1/4 inch is a bit much. To stop this you can take a
small block of wood and a c clamp on the rear rail to give it a support. In
practice it does not seem to be an issue, but I plan on ditching the fence
in a few more months for a more advanced design, maybe an Incra.

>
>I'm mainly refering to the typical fences that come with many bench and
>contractor's saws. There's a reason that many of these were replaced with
>Vegas, Beis / clones, etc. Shoot, you even replaced your stock fence with
>a Bies. Was the oringinal front-locking?

NO.....

I ordered my saw direct from Jet (a Cabinet Saw) 15 years ago with
the Biesmeyer Fence... At that time Biesmeyer was not owned by Delta
and Biesmeyers were common options on many saws...

My original table saw was a Rockwell Contractors saw...locked front
and back, My Dads Tablesaw was a Craftsmans,..locked front and
back..my Brothers original Tablesaw was a Delta Contractors
saw...locked front and back...

Bob Griffiths

> These fences *appear* to only lock
> at the front with little stabilization at the rear. This scares me as
> well.


Fear not little one. All the really good fences only use a front-only
locking design. Beismeyer and all of their clones function this way. By
locking only in the front they are only using the front rail as a reference
for setting the "angle" (which should be parallel to the blade).

It is easy to make front-rear locking design that will lock very securely,
*but* it is hard to make the always lock at the same angle, which is
critical.

I used to have a craftsman with a front/rear locking fence. The fence was
the worst part of the saw. I eventially replaced it with a front-locking
Vega which performed beautifully.

In short Front-only locking is generally a good thing.

-Steve

>>
>> In short Front-only locking is generally a good thing.
>
>Well, Bies (and its clones) are generally a good thing. Not sure about
>front-locking overall. There are plenty of lousy front-locking fences.

=================
Not doubting you at all...BUT can you name a couple...?

Just curious... because I have never seen any ..but then again after
buying my Biesmeyer almost 15 years ago I have not paid any attention
to fences ...just no need to..

Bob Griffiths

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:25:57 -0500, Stephen M wrote:

> Fear not little one. All the really good fences only use a front-only
> locking design. Beismeyer and all of their clones function this way. By
> locking only in the front they are only using the front rail as a
> reference for setting the "angle" (which should be parallel to the blade).
>
> It is easy to make front-rear locking design that will lock very
> securely, *but* it is hard to make the always lock at the same angle,
> which is critical.

My Shop Fox (the un-Bies version) works quite well. It glides freely on
its rails and locks like a rock front and back. It's also consistantly
square. This looks like a solved problem to me.

There are advantages to front-locking only, though. It's easier to setup
an outfeed table, for example.

> I used to have a craftsman with a front/rear locking fence. The fence was
> the worst part of the saw. I eventially replaced it with a front-locking
> Vega which performed beautifully.
>
> In short Front-only locking is generally a good thing.

Well, Bies (and its clones) are generally a good thing. Not sure about
front-locking overall. There are plenty of lousy front-locking fences.

--
Joe Wells

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:05:09 -0500, Bob G. wrote:

>
>
>>> In short Front-only locking is generally a good thing.
>>
>>Well, Bies (and its clones) are generally a good thing. Not sure about
>>front-locking overall. There are plenty of lousy front-locking fences.
>
> =================
> Not doubting you at all...BUT can you name a couple...?
>
> Just curious... because I have never seen any ..but then again after
> buying my Biesmeyer almost 15 years ago I have not paid any attention to
> fences ...just no need to..

I'm mainly refering to the typical fences that come with many bench and
contractor's saws. There's a reason that many of these were replaced with
Vegas, Beis / clones, etc. Shoot, you even replaced your stock fence with
a Bies. Was the oringinal front-locking?

--
Joe Wells

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:15:35 -0500, Bob G. wrote:

>
>
>>I'm mainly refering to the typical fences that come with many bench and
>>contractor's saws. There's a reason that many of these were replaced with
>>Vegas, Beis / clones, etc. Shoot, you even replaced your stock fence with
>>a Bies. Was the oringinal front-locking?
>
> NO.....
>
> I ordered my saw direct from Jet (a Cabinet Saw) 15 years ago with
> the Biesmeyer Fence... At that time Biesmeyer was not owned by Delta and
> Biesmeyers were common options on many saws...
>
> My original table saw was a Rockwell Contractors saw...locked front and
> back, My Dads Tablesaw was a Craftsmans,..locked front and back..my
> Brothers original Tablesaw was a Delta Contractors saw...locked front and
> back...

Fair enough. It seems to me that most of the fences on contractor's saws
that I've seen over the past few years have been front-locking, so I
presumed that's the type that most of the folks here are talking about
when asking for fence replacement recommendations. Reviewing a few saws on
OWWM, that doesn't seem to be the case "back then", although looking at
the designs it's easy to see why front-n-back lockers have a bad rap.

--
Joe Wells