MJ <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> While personally I don't know if there have been any accidents at
> places like the Tech Shop, I'd imagine there have been. I guess that's
> why they carry insurance and why they enforce the safety classes. They
> don't care you have been a woodworker for 10 years. You GOT to go to
> the safety class. Beyond that, you are on your own. Of course if the
> environment is unsafe, there might be cause for suing.
>
> MJ
>
*trim*
Sometimes when I get away from the tools for a bit, I have to remind
myself of all the safety habits. For example, it's not a bad idea to
give the lathe a spin by hand before you turn it on, just to make sure
your work piece clears. That's easy to forget that first time back.
A refresher course could be a good thing.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 6:24:48 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately for the shop, having a signed waver only helps to
> > promote shop safety. I would be surprised if someone was hurt at the
> > fault of some one there, and went to court, if he would loose the
> > suit. A signed waver does not trump the law. If the signed waver was
> > rock solid protection there would be no need for insurance. And I am
> > certain the insurance company requires the waver to limit liability.
> >
> > I absolutely would not want to be an investor in anything like that.
>
> Maybe not. But you might probably like to be a "supporter", if it was in
> your neighborhood.
>
> Would it be more difficult to do this as a not-for-profit entity?
Are you asking if it would be difficult for a not-for-profit to run a
cooperative workshop? If so, then while I can't address the "difficulty"
level, I can say that the Makerspace workshop near me is a 501(c)(3)
tax-exempt nonprofit organization.
Everything they do is supported by donations and/or membership dues.
> I never heard of a non-profit entity issuing bonds.
Read this:
http://www.sgrlaw.com/briefings/459/
> A public utility is close? One has to really keep up with things to
> participate in this
> newsgroup! ; )
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 3:59:19 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
> Electric Comet wrote:
> > seems like a good idea to fund a cooperative
> >
> >
> > http://techshop.ws/invest.html
> >
> >
> > not a horrible investment as member dues should cover it and you get
> > a vip lifetime membership
> >
>
> Can you imagine the horrendous liability issues (asked by a person who
> was recently rear-ended while stopped at a red-light)? As someone
> observed in a photo already posted, there were too-many bodies. But in
> some areas of the country, this may be the only viable option for a
> workshop. Hopefully, they will have the sense to reject or eject some
> applicants. Marijuana is now legal in CA. Can you imagine any potential
> conflict there? "Did you pick up any more of them dovetails,
> buddy?" Last week, in a school I am familiar with, a number of 7th
> graders were sent home for bringing legal pot to school. Maybe nothing
> new under the sun? Some tolerance (which seemed to exist in the 70's)
> seemed better than trying to "jail everybody up".
Did they get to keep the pot? Back when I...err...ummm...I mean somebody
I knew got sent home for having illegal pot in school, the folks that
were doing the sending kept the herb.
Hmm, You're referring to the Portland Maker Space that Elec. Comet posted. =
This current post is related the Tech Shop in the Bay area. =20
What this post is related to is the following: you're an investor with stoc=
k in the company. If you own Exxon and one of their tankers hits a reef and=
spills oil, you as an individual don't bear the responsibility for the cle=
anup, the company does. Of course your financial stake in the company might=
be impacted by the stock price decrease or by reduced revenues, etc. But t=
he government(s) - state, local, fed - don't go after individual share hold=
ers.
I am very familiar with The Tech Shop having taken classes there and used s=
ome of the equipment. You sign a waiver and you MUST take a safety class pr=
ior to being allowed to use the equipment for each piece of equipment you w=
ant to use. Also there are tech support people who roam the area and I'd im=
agine they would stop you from doing something stupid.=20
Can you hurt yourself or someone else at one of these spaces, yes of course=
. Years ago, I took a woodworking class. Signed waivers and a safety briefi=
ng EVERY DAY of the three days in class. Two idiots who were drinking durin=
g lunch one day (I was at the next table and saw them) decided to FREEHAND =
a tablesaw cut. The piece of wood flew behind them and made a mark in the w=
all. The owner/instructor saw this and STOPPED the class and told them in v=
ery calm words - go home and don't come back. They did and forfeited their =
class registration.=20
While personally I don't know if there have been any accidents at places li=
ke the Tech Shop, I'd imagine there have been. I guess that's why they carr=
y insurance and why they enforce the safety classes. They don't care you ha=
ve been a woodworker for 10 years. You GOT to go to the safety class. Beyon=
d that, you are on your own. Of course if the environment is unsafe, there =
might be cause for suing.=20
MJ
BTW: legal marijuana doesn't start in California until 2018. However we hav=
e had legal medicinal pot for 10 years.=20
> Can you imagine the horrendous liability issues (asked by a person who=20
> was recently rear-ended while stopped at a red-light)? As someone=20
> observed in a photo already posted, there were too-many bodies. But in=20
> some areas of the country, this may be the only viable option for a=20
> workshop. Hopefully, they will have the sense to reject or eject some=20
> applicants.=20
On 2/4/2017 4:43 PM, MJ wrote:
> Hmm, You're referring to the Portland Maker Space that Elec. Comet
> posted. This current post is related the Tech Shop in the Bay area.
>
>
> What this post is related to is the following: you're an investor
> with stock in the company. If you own Exxon and one of their tankers
> hits a reef and spills oil, you as an individual don't bear the
> responsibility for the cleanup, the company does. Of course your
> financial stake in the company might be impacted by the stock price
> decrease or by reduced revenues, etc. But the government(s) - state,
> local, fed - don't go after individual share holders.
>
> I am very familiar with The Tech Shop having taken classes there and
> used some of the equipment. You sign a waiver and you MUST take a
> safety class prior to being allowed to use the equipment for each
> piece of equipment you want to use. Also there are tech support
> people who roam the area and I'd imagine they would stop you from
> doing something stupid.
>
> Can you hurt yourself or someone else at one of these spaces, yes of
> course. Years ago, I took a woodworking class. Signed waivers and a
> safety briefing EVERY DAY of the three days in class. Two idiots who
> were drinking during lunch one day (I was at the next table and saw
> them) decided to FREEHAND a tablesaw cut. The piece of wood flew
> behind them and made a mark in the wall. The owner/instructor saw
> this and STOPPED the class and told them in very calm words - go home
> and don't come back. They did and forfeited their class registration.
>
>
> While personally I don't know if there have been any accidents at
> places like the Tech Shop, I'd imagine there have been. I guess
> that's why they carry insurance and why they enforce the safety
> classes. They don't care you have been a woodworker for 10 years. You
> GOT to go to the safety class. Beyond that, you are on your own. Of
> course if the environment is unsafe, there might be cause for suing.
>
>
> MJ
>
Unfortunately for the shop, having a signed waver only helps to promote
shop safety. I would be surprised if someone was hurt at the fault of
some one there, and went to court, if he would loose the suit. A signed
waver does not trump the law. If the signed waver was rock solid
protection there would be no need for insurance. And I am certain the
insurance company requires the waver to limit liability.
I absolutely would not want to be an investor in anything like that.
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 7:04:57 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
...snip...
> >
> >> I never heard of a non-profit entity issuing bonds.
> > Read this:
> >
> > http://www.sgrlaw.com/briefings/459/
>
> Thank you. It was interesting to learn about "credit enhancement" too.
>
You are welcome!
Speaking of "credit enhancement", I had to laugh at a sign that I saw on the
side of the road this morning. It was one of those cheap lawn signs, like
these:
http://cheapsigns.com/cheapsigns.png
It read:
We'll Fix Your Credit! $250
1-800-555-5555
Right, like I'm going turn over all of my credit and financial
information to some guy who paid about $5 to print a sign and
stick it alongside a road. And I get to pay him $250 too?
What could possibly go wrong?
Bill <[email protected]> writes:
>MJ wrote:
>> <snip>
>Thank you for providing the details about the co-op that you did.
>>
>> BTW: legal marijuana doesn't start in California until 2018. However we have had legal medicinal pot for 10 years.
>>
>Okay, perhaps the pot the students were sent home for was not as legal
>as I had assumed.
And even in 2018, it won't be legal for 7th graders to possess, any more than
a bottle of hootch would be.
Electric Comet wrote:
> seems like a good idea to fund a cooperative
>
>
> http://techshop.ws/invest.html
>
>
> not a horrible investment as member dues should cover it and you get
> a vip lifetime membership
>
Can you imagine the horrendous liability issues (asked by a person who
was recently rear-ended while stopped at a red-light)? As someone
observed in a photo already posted, there were too-many bodies. But in
some areas of the country, this may be the only viable option for a
workshop. Hopefully, they will have the sense to reject or eject some
applicants. Marijuana is now legal in CA. Can you imagine any potential
conflict there? "Did you pick up any more of them dovetails,
buddy?" Last week, in a school I am familiar with, a number of 7th
graders were sent home for bringing legal pot to school. Maybe nothing
new under the sun? Some tolerance (which seemed to exist in the 70's)
seemed better than trying to "jail everybody up".
All of that said, I wish "the cooperative" the best of luck.
Electric Comet wrote:
> seems like a good idea to fund a cooperative
>
>
> http://techshop.ws/invest.html
>
>
> not a horrible investment as member dues should cover it and you get
> a vip lifetime membership
>
At least they ought to be able to build and maintain their own shop
furniture! : )
In the cities I saw mentioned, the "rent" will probably be an issue.
>
>
>
>
Leon wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately for the shop, having a signed waver only helps to
> promote shop safety. I would be surprised if someone was hurt at the
> fault of some one there, and went to court, if he would loose the
> suit. A signed waver does not trump the law. If the signed waver was
> rock solid protection there would be no need for insurance. And I am
> certain the insurance company requires the waver to limit liability.
>
> I absolutely would not want to be an investor in anything like that.
Maybe not. But you might probably like to be a "supporter", if it was in
your neighborhood.
Would it be more difficult to do this as a not-for-profit entity? I
never heard of a non-profit entity issuing bonds. A public utility is
close? One has to really keep up with things to participate in this
newsgroup! ; )
DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 6:24:48 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately for the shop, having a signed waver only helps to
>>> promote shop safety. I would be surprised if someone was hurt at the
>>> fault of some one there, and went to court, if he would loose the
>>> suit. A signed waver does not trump the law. If the signed waver was
>>> rock solid protection there would be no need for insurance. And I am
>>> certain the insurance company requires the waver to limit liability.
>>>
>>> I absolutely would not want to be an investor in anything like that.
>> Maybe not. But you might probably like to be a "supporter", if it was in
>> your neighborhood.
>>
>> Would it be more difficult to do this as a not-for-profit entity?
> Are you asking if it would be difficult for a not-for-profit to run a
> cooperative workshop? If so, then while I can't address the "difficulty"
> level, I can say that the Makerspace workshop near me is a 501(c)(3)
> tax-exempt nonprofit organization.
>
> Everything they do is supported by donations and/or membership dues.
>
>> I never heard of a non-profit entity issuing bonds.
> Read this:
>
> http://www.sgrlaw.com/briefings/459/
Thank you. It was interesting to learn about "credit enhancement" too.
>
>
>> A public utility is close? One has to really keep up with things to
>> participate in this
>> newsgroup! ; )
On Sat, 4 Feb 2017 14:43:16 -0800 (PST)
MJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am very familiar with The Tech Shop having taken classes there and
> used some of the equipment. You sign a waiver and you MUST take a
> safety class prior to being allowed to use the equipment for each
> piece of equipment you want to use. Also there are tech support
the techshops have been around for several years now and there are
techshops across the country so they have worked out the issues
that had to be prominent in their business model and no sensible
investor could have overlooked that issue and it was probably the
top issue worked on
On Sat, 4 Feb 2017 14:43:16 -0800 (PST), MJ <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Hmm, You're referring to the Portland Maker Space that Elec. Comet posted. This current post is related the Tech Shop in the Bay area.
>
>What this post is related to is the following: you're an investor with stock in the company. If you own Exxon and one of their tankers hits a reef and spills oil, you as an individual don't bear the responsibility for the cleanup, the company does. Of course your financial stake in the company might be impacted by the stock price decrease or by reduced revenues, etc. But the government(s) - state, local, fed - don't go after individual share holders.
Maybe. However, if you're an operating officer your personal
liability may or may not be limited. The "corporate veil" is not
impenetrable.
>I am very familiar with The Tech Shop having taken classes there and used some of the equipment. You sign a waiver and you MUST take a safety class prior to being allowed to use the equipment for each piece of equipment you want to use. Also there are tech support people who roam the area and I'd imagine they would stop you from doing something stupid.
Waivers aren't a guarantee, either. Courts aren't at all predictable.
>Can you hurt yourself or someone else at one of these spaces, yes of course. Years ago, I took a woodworking class. Signed waivers and a safety briefing EVERY DAY of the three days in class. Two idiots who were drinking during lunch one day (I was at the next table and saw them) decided to FREEHAND a tablesaw cut. The piece of wood flew behind them and made a mark in the wall. The owner/instructor saw this and STOPPED the class and told them in very calm words - go home and don't come back. They did and forfeited their class registration.
>
>While personally I don't know if there have been any accidents at places like the Tech Shop, I'd imagine there have been. I guess that's why they carry insurance and why they enforce the safety classes. They don't care you have been a woodworker for 10 years. You GOT to go to the safety class. Beyond that, you are on your own. Of course if the environment is unsafe, there might be cause for suing.