Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...
It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen over.
Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown tone) DougFir
for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly cheaper than
ConHeart. But I am not at all happy about embedding wood directly in
concrete. I keep thinking of concrete as basically a sponge that retains
any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the dang fence again in this
lifetime.
Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was
thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or even
hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Cheers, Shawn
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:40:09 -0500, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
>>the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
>>suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
>>built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould
>>come
>>in handy at times.
>>
> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>
> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
>
How hard would it be to manufacture something like this? It seems like a
lot of folks who build fences would like something like this. I am
certainly not going to manufacture this item, but somebody could. It seems
to have a built in market. Just a thought.
On Jun 12, 6:00=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "fftt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:32ace45e-ae5a-4484-b285-7321396ef927@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 10, 4:53 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Lew-
>
> Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
>
> NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
> be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
> pole)
> Read the catalog notes.
>
> Totally agree, IMHO they need to be a heavier material, aproaching 1/4"
> thick and extend up the pole at least 24".
>
> A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent =A0"moment
> capacity". =A0 To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
> metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post =A0requires a
> bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
>
> Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
> wood to concrete via metal connector =A0winds up being a pretty hefty
> piece of hardware
>
> Gotta agree there too, there comes a point where digging a hole large eno=
ugh
> to handle a large enough diameter cylinder, positioning the bracket and
> handling the extra concrete becomes a much more labor intensive job than
> probably replacing the fence again.
> For longevity I still believe a galvanized steel pipe is going to be the
> simplest and =A0best bet.
Leon-
I've designed & built moment resistant post bases where there was NO
wood to concrete or wood to soil contact.
They are HEFTY pieces of hardware and look like crap, only suitable
for "hidden locations"
I agree that a galv pipe into concrete is the strongest, simplest way
to go. But the pipe has to be pretty large & the pipe to post
connection is hard (imo) to make decent looking. Simpson makes some
pipe to wood connectors (like large pipe straps) but one still winds
up with the pipe showing unless you "box out" the pipe.
I've yet to see or develop a concrete / connector / post solution
that reduces rot / termite issues AND looks good enough to satisfy
the customer. :(
I think the best looking, quickest, easiest, cheapest solution is a
treated 4x4 in concrete over gravel using the heavy treatment (not the
home depot stuff).
cheers
Bib
Sounds OK, I just don't think ambient moisture from the concrete is
going to be an issue. It is the standing in wet water that will cause
decay. But what the heck, maybe dip them in thompsons water sealer and
let em soak some of that up (p.s. I'm serious about that but I think
the PT is pretty much already taking care of that.)
On Jun 11, 2:24=A0pm, "Rima Neas" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:b0094ea5-d8c7-4fa6-ac73->aec225665__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END=
[email protected]...
> >If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in
> >any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is
> >just my speculation).
>
> >Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is
> >to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with
> >gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be
> >standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the
> >concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so
> >any water drains away and doesn't pool.
>
> How about a hybrid approach then... gravel the bottom of the hole as
> standard, but also paint the SIDES and only the sides of the post with re=
sin
> so the wood does not directly contact the concrete. =A0Moisture can still
> leave through the endgrain into the gravel/french drain.
>
> The post-holder/post-base style of construction certainly has merit, but
> only if the metal holder can extend about 2ft up the post--no structure
> above, a huge wind load, and 50mph gusts every year. =A0Of course metal p=
osts
> would be nice too, but would cost $$. =A0Besides, some of the fence will =
be
> shared with various neighbors and getting everyone to agree on a
> 'non-standard' look might be difficult.
>
> Many thanks for the ideas so far. =A0This is very helpful.
>
> Cheers, Shawn
>
> PS: =A0Just as an aside, what lasts longer in ground-contact, redwood or =
PT
> (assuming GC level treatment)?
On Jun 10, 4:21=A0pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in
> any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is
> just my speculation).
>
> Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is
> to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with
> gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be
> standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the
> concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so
> any water drains away and doesn't pool.
>
> Alternative is some sort of Simpson post holder like a column basehttp://=
www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LCB-CB.asp. One trick is
> to use some sort of standoff to hold the bottom of the post above
> ground. The Simpson items called a post base have this built in but
> they don't have enough attachment to the post, just a few nails. You
> don't really need sono tubes, just some careful placement of the
> embeds. I like to hang them in the hole from some temp structure and
> use a soupy mix of concrete so it pours in and levels easy.
the first set of fence details you posted is great
but
NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
pole)
Read the catalog notes.
From the catalog
Post bases do not provide adequate resistance to prevent members from
rotating about the base and therefore are not recommended for non top-
supported installations (such as fences or unbraced carports).
cheers
Bob
On Jun 10, 4:53=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
> > It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground
> > setting on piers.
>
> Yep.
>
> > Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over.
>
> That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle
> lateral loading from wind, snow, etc.
>
> > I think for stability you are going to want the posts in the ground
> > at least 20-24 inches.
>
> The Sonotubes should extend below the frost line which in most cases
> is probably around 24" minimum.
>
> Lew
>>>>>>That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle
lateral loading from wind, snow, etc. <<<
Lew-
Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
pole)
Read the catalog notes.
A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent "moment
capacity". To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post requires a
bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
wood to concrete via metal connector winds up being a pretty hefty
piece of hardware
cheers
Bob
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:40:09 -0500, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
>>the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
>>suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
>>built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould
>>come
>>in handy at times.
>>
>
>
> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>
> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
THANK YOU Tom! I see now. Still I think I would be more comfortable with a
24" strap than the illustrated 12". However I do have the ever present
possibility of a hurricane every year. Fortunately none of mine that I have
built in the last 5 years blew down after the storm last September, many did
not do so well.
Tom Veatch <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:41:07 -0500, "Leon"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>>>
>>> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
>>
>>
>>THANK YOU Tom! I see now. Still I think I would be more comfortable with a
>>24" strap than the illustrated 12". However I do have the ever present
>>possibility of a hurricane every year. Fortunately none of mine that I have
>>built in the last 5 years blew down after the storm last September, many did
>>not do so well.
>
>Here are several designs of commercially available post anchors from
>Simpson:
>http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html
>
Yes - I use the LCB44/LCB46 for my fences (6' and 7' redwood with 2x12 PT kicker
and 4x4 or 4x6 PT posts using 1/2" bolts).
scott
"Leon" wrote:
> It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground
> setting on piers.
Yep.
> Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over.
That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle
lateral loading from wind, snow, etc.
> I think for stability you are going to want the posts in the ground
> at least 20-24 inches.
The Sonotubes should extend below the frost line which in most cases
is probably around 24" minimum.
Lew
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:40:09 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
>the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
>suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
>built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould come
>in handy at times.
>
I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
Dimensions are estimated from memory.
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Jun 11, 10:38=A0pm, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:41:07 -0500, "Leon"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>
> >> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>
> >>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fenc..=
.
>
> >THANK YOU Tom! =A0I see now. =A0Still I think I would be more comfortabl=
e with a
> >24" strap than the illustrated 12". =A0However I do have the ever presen=
t
> >possibility of a hurricane every year. =A0Fortunately none of mine that =
I have
> >built in the last 5 years blew down after the storm last September, many=
did
> >not do so well.
>
> Here are several designs of commercially available post anchors from
> Simpson:http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
The Simpson post / column bases are not designed nor meant for free
standing (ie fence post) applications......read the catalog notes.
cheers
Bob
"fftt" wrote:
=====================================
Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
pole)
Read the catalog notes.
A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent "moment
capacity". To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post requires a
bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
wood to concrete via metal connector winds up being a pretty hefty
piece of hardware
====================================
Agreed.
If you go back and check my post, you'll notice that 10 GA metal
(1/8"+) is spec'd as well as standard 1/2", "J" bolt anchor bolts in
the concrete.
You will need at least a 3/8" inside radius for the 90 degree turn to
minimize stress concentrations. (You need a press brake operator with
a little talent<grin>)
Think of this as a 30 ft tall lighting pole, secured with four (4)
mounting bolts to a concrete cylinder.
The design approach is similar.
I doubt anything in the Simpson catalog comes close to the above.
You will have a better chance finding something in the Valley pole
catalog.
Lew
"fftt" wrote:
=======================================
You're preaching to the choir.......
and your design, though sound in concept, won't do the job unless you
go a ways up the post
=======================================
You don't like a 12" strap then make it 18".
The bending load is handled by the metal, the wood is just along for
the ride.
======================================
Simpson has no catalog items to do the job either .....BTDT
======================================
That was my reaction to Tom V's post.
======================================
Connecting a wooden fence post to a concrete embed is not the same as
connecting a metal flag pole, traffic signal pole, etc to its
foundation.
The wood to metal load transfer will be the weak link.
====================================
Not sure I follow you.
======================================
>What is the moment capacity of 4x4 fence post?
Could care less.
>What is the moment capacity of your metal embed?
The metal is not imbeded.
You can calculate the section modulus based on a 3-1/2 square with 10
GA walls on the two (2) opposite sides and none on the other, if you
like.
>What is he moment capacity of your
proposed metal to wood fastener pattern?
None required, the wood is trapped by 3" wide straps and thru bolts.
The bending load is handled strictly by the metal.
>KInda hard to fully develop 4x4 moment capacity with through bolts
plus cross grain tension will bite you. Not to mention the inevitable
sloppiness in the connection
You lost me.
>You'll have better luck with lags.
Lags are guaranteed to mess up. Much prefer metal plates thru bolts
with ESNA (Aircraft) stop nuts.
> Out of plane strength will be decent but in plane (all the fence)
> will
be rather low unless you have straps on all four faces.
Straps must face fore and aft to handle the wind, snow, etc load.
The lateral sides of the post do not require straps since the fence
will serve as diagonal bracing.
Lew
"Rima Neas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...
Sure it is. It certainly is not a Tupperware party.
> It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen over.
Sounds like it is way past time.
> Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown tone) DougFir
> for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly cheaper than
> ConHeart. But I am not at all happy about embedding wood directly in
> concrete. I keep thinking of concrete as basically a sponge that retains
> any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the dang fence again in this
> lifetime.
Good Pressure treated should not rot for 20+ years. But if you have soft
ground the fence will probably fall over but much sooner if you do not use
concrete to anchor the posts. Been there and Done that.
>
> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was
> thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or
> even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Alternatively, use steel galvanized chain link terminal posts. Those can be
masked with pickets or painted if you do not want to see the silver post
and in addition to probably being easier to handle should be much less
expensive. Be sure to concrete them in also. There are many types of
brackets sold, commonly where you would buy the steel posts, that will let
you attach the wood fence rails to the round steel posts.
Additionally if you attach a 1x6 PT board horizontally and level along the
groung on the picket side of the posts you can use that board to set the
pickets on. This will allow you to put the pickets up much faster and
evenly, and it keeps the ends of the pickets off the ground which extends
the life of the pickets. If the PT horizontal board rots it is much easier
replaced than the whole fence.
Keep in mind also that PT pickets tend to warp badly over time, you want to
run a minimum of 3 rails between each post to attach the "near" top, middle,
and "near" bottoms of the pickets to.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground setting on
>> piers.
>
> Yep.
>
>> Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over.
>
> That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle lateral
> loading from wind, snow, etc.
So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould come
in handy at times.
"Rima Neas" wrote:
> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I
> was thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass
> resin or even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be
> appreciated.
Depends on your budget.
The best, thus highest initial cost, would be to use Sonotubes, anchor
bolts, end post brackets and bolts.
Use the tubes as a concrete form and pour the concrete about 12" above
grade and the anchor bolts in place using the template provided.
Secure post bracket with anchor boots and bolt post to brackets.
All hardware should be galvanized.
Most expensive, but also most termite proof.
Have fun
Lew
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom Veatch" wrote:
>
>> Here are several designs of commercially available post anchors from
>> Simpson:
>> http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html
>
> Personally, if that is their total offering, I don't see anything that
> would come close to being suitable for a free standing post application.
>
> Lew
>
>
Agreed! 8 or 9 inches is not going to cut it unless the fence is inside a
building where no one or wind will come in contact with it.
"fftt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:32ace45e-ae5a-4484-b285-7321396ef927@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 10, 4:53 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
Lew-
Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
pole)
Read the catalog notes.
Totally agree, IMHO they need to be a heavier material, aproaching 1/4"
thick and extend up the pole at least 24".
A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent "moment
capacity". To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post requires a
bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
wood to concrete via metal connector winds up being a pretty hefty
piece of hardware
Gotta agree there too, there comes a point where digging a hole large enough
to handle a large enough diameter cylinder, positioning the bracket and
handling the extra concrete becomes a much more labor intensive job than
probably replacing the fence again.
For longevity I still believe a galvanized steel pipe is going to be the
simplest and best bet.
"Leon" wrote:
> So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal
> amount?
Absolutely, probably at least 8"-10" and be thru bolted to the post
with a couple of 3/8"-1/2" hex hd bolts and Esna Stop nuts (Aircraft
type)
> And the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ?
>Got a suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see
>them, I have built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so
>and this bould come in handy at time
Haven't looked very hard, but if I was still back in Cleveland, I'd
head for my buddy's machine shop with a sketch and a 12 pack in hand.
Maybe you got a guy like that in your area, especially with all the
oil field shops in the area.
All you need is a machine shop with a shear and a press brake that
could handle say 10Ga material and hopefully a punch press for the
9/16" clearance thru holes.
Shear some blanks say 3"x15", punch some 9/16" clearance holes then
press brake to form a 90 degree angle ith 3"x12" legs.
Make say 100 pieces then head for the galvanizing shop and be patient.
With such a small load, you want to ride somebody elses coat tails and
share the cost, thus avoiding minimum charges.
Have fun.
Lew
"fftt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:03bc19a3-e0b4-4396-80b7-f557cd612e3d@r31g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 12, 6:00 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "fftt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:32ace45e-ae5a-4484-b285-7321396ef927@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 10, 4:53 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Lew-
>
> Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
>
> NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
> be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
> pole)
> Read the catalog notes.
>
> Totally agree, IMHO they need to be a heavier material, aproaching 1/4"
> thick and extend up the pole at least 24".
>
> A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent "moment
> capacity". To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
> metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post requires a
> bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
>
> Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
> wood to concrete via metal connector winds up being a pretty hefty
> piece of hardware
>
> Gotta agree there too, there comes a point where digging a hole large
> enough
> to handle a large enough diameter cylinder, positioning the bracket and
> handling the extra concrete becomes a much more labor intensive job than
> probably replacing the fence again.
> For longevity I still believe a galvanized steel pipe is going to be the
> simplest and best bet.
Leon-
I've designed & built moment resistant post bases where there was NO
wood to concrete or wood to soil contact.
They are HEFTY pieces of hardware and look like crap, only suitable
for "hidden locations"
I agree that a galv pipe into concrete is the strongest, simplest way
to go. But the pipe has to be pretty large & the pipe to post
connection is hard (imo) to make decent looking. Simpson makes some
pipe to wood connectors (like large pipe straps) but one still winds
up with the pipe showing unless you "box out" the pipe.
Actually it is not uncommon to see a fence, along the coastal areas, with
chain link "terminal" posts for the regular posts. There are wrap around
brackets that allow the attachment of wooden 2x4 rails readily available at
most home centers. You certainly want the termanal posts as they are
approximately 2.5-3" in diameter. The normal smaller posts would not be
suitable. If you really wanted to strengthen the post you could fill it
with concrete also. Actually these also look pretty decent .
I've yet to see or develop a concrete / connector / post solution
that reduces rot / termite issues AND looks good enough to satisfy
the customer. :(
I think the best looking, quickest, easiest, cheapest solution is a
treated 4x4 in concrete over gravel using the heavy treatment (not the
home depot stuff).
cheers
Bib
If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in
any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is
just my speculation).
Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is
to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with
gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be
standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the
concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so
any water drains away and doesn't pool.
Alternative is some sort of Simpson post holder like a column base
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LCB-CB.asp. One trick is
to use some sort of standoff to hold the bottom of the post above
ground. The Simpson items called a post base have this built in but
they don't have enough attachment to the post, just a few nails. You
don't really need sono tubes, just some careful placement of the
embeds. I like to hang them in the hole from some temp structure and
use a soupy mix of concrete so it pours in and levels easy.
On Jun 10, 3:31=A0pm, "Rima Neas" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...
>
> It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen over.
> Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown tone) DougFir
> for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly cheaper than
> ConHeart. =A0But I am not at all happy about embedding wood directly in
> concrete. =A0I keep thinking of concrete as basically a sponge that retai=
ns
> any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the dang fence again in this
> lifetime.
>
> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? =A0I was
> thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or e=
ven
> hot tar before placement. =A0Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Cheers, Shawn
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Rima Neas" wrote:
>
>> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was
>> thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or
>> even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Depends on your budget.
>
> The best, thus highest initial cost, would be to use Sonotubes, anchor
> bolts, end post brackets and bolts.
>
> Use the tubes as a concrete form and pour the concrete about 12" above
> grade and the anchor bolts in place using the template provided.
>
> Secure post bracket with anchor boots and bolt post to brackets.
>
> All hardware should be galvanized.
>
> Most expensive, but also most termite proof.
>
> Have fun
It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground setting on
piers. Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over. I think
for stability you are going to want the posts in the ground at least 20-24
inches.
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:15:12 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:40:09 -0500, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
>>>the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
>>>suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
>>>built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould
>>>come
>>>in handy at times.
>>>
>> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>>
>> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
>>
>How hard would it be to manufacture something like this? It seems like a
>lot of folks who build fences would like something like this. I am
>certainly not going to manufacture this item, but somebody could. It seems
>to have a built in market. Just a thought.
>
>
I'll put a call into Billy Mays Here.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Tom Veatch" wrote:
> Here are several designs of commercially available post anchors from
> Simpson:
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html
Personally, if that is their total offering, I don't see anything that
would come close to being suitable for a free standing post
application.
Lew
On Jun 11, 10:23=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "fftt" wrote:
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Your concept is good but the devil is in the details.
>
> NONE of the Simpson post bases / column bases are designed / meant to
> be used in free standing post configuration (ie a fence post or flag
> pole)
> Read the catalog notes.
>
> A 4x4 post embedded in concrete in the ground has a decent =A0"moment
> capacity". =A0 To get a fence post connected to a "concrete chunk" via a
> metal connector to perform the same as an embedded post =A0requires a
> bit of design; especially the fastener size and pattern.
>
> Its not as simple as it appears ....... a moment capable connection;
> wood to concrete via metal connector =A0winds up being a pretty hefty
> piece of hardware
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> Agreed.
>
> If you go back and check my post, you'll notice that 10 GA metal
> (1/8"+) is spec'd as well as standard 1/2", "J" bolt anchor bolts in
> the concrete.
>
> You will need at least a 3/8" inside radius for the 90 degree turn to
> minimize stress concentrations. (You need a press brake operator with
> a little talent<grin>)
>
> Think of this as a 30 ft tall lighting pole, secured with four (4)
> mounting bolts to a concrete cylinder.
>
> The design approach is similar.
>
> I doubt anything in the Simpson catalog comes close to the above.
>
> You will have a better chance finding something in the Valley pole
> catalog.
>
> Lew
Lew-
You're preaching to the choir.......
and your design, though sound in concept, won't do the job unless you
go a ways up the post
Simpson has no catalog items to do the job either .....BTDT
Connecting a wooden fence post to a concrete embed is not the same as
connecting a metal flag pole, traffic signal pole, etc to its
foundation.
The wood to metal load transfer will be the weak link.
What is the moment capacity of 4x4 fence post? What is the moment
capacity of your metal embed? What is he moment capacity of your
proposed metal to wood fastener pattern?
KInda hard to fully develop 4x4 moment capacity with through bolts
plus cross grain tension will bite you. Not to mention the inevitable
sloppiness in the connection. You'll have better luck with lags.
Out of plane strength will be decent but in plane (all the fence) will
be rather low unless you have straps on all four faces.
cheers
Bob
Another Solution:
Plastic electrical conduit is Sch 40, gray PVC, 10 ft sections, and is
suitable for above or below grade installation.
Install 3" conduit with gravel surround about 24" below grade then
fill
with sand to about 12" above grade.
Cap top of pipe is optional.
Attach fench with wrap around clamps not thru bolts.
If you don't mind gray color, you will be happy with longevity.
If you do mind gray color, it will be like ugly on an ape.
Have fun.
Lew
Rima Neas wrote:
> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...
>
> It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen
> over. Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown
> tone) DougFir for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly
> cheaper than ConHeart. But I am not at all happy about embedding
> wood directly in concrete. I keep thinking of concrete as basically
> a sponge that retains any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the
> dang fence again in this lifetime.
>
> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was
> thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin
> or even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Cheers, Shawn
Another technique you might try is metal posts anchored in concrete. You can
then attach the 4x4s to the metal posts with none of the wood touching the
ground.
This arrangement is not only immeasurably stronger but almost immortal.
In my neighborhood, houses on each side of a power-line easement were
fenced. On one side, every house had metal posts; on the other side every
house had wooden posts. After Hurricane Yikes last November, about 60% of
the wooden-post fences were down. None of the metal post fences were much
bothered by the winds.
I missed the beginning of this thread. I would just note that
in my experience in the mid-atlantic area, a CCA pressure
treated SYP post will last at least 25 years buried directly in
the ground. I have PT posts that have outlasted 2 generations
of cedar pickets and are now holding up their third. I cannot
say if the newer PT chemicals will hold up as well as the old
CCA formula, but it seems that all that concrete and metal is
overkill .
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
>"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:b0094ea5-d8c7-4fa6-ac73->[email protected]...
>If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in
>any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is
>just my speculation).
>
>Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is
>to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with
>gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be
>standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the
>concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so
>any water drains away and doesn't pool.
>
>
How about a hybrid approach then... gravel the bottom of the hole as
standard, but also paint the SIDES and only the sides of the post with resin
so the wood does not directly contact the concrete. Moisture can still
leave through the endgrain into the gravel/french drain.
The post-holder/post-base style of construction certainly has merit, but
only if the metal holder can extend about 2ft up the post--no structure
above, a huge wind load, and 50mph gusts every year. Of course metal posts
would be nice too, but would cost $$. Besides, some of the fence will be
shared with various neighbors and getting everyone to agree on a
'non-standard' look might be difficult.
Many thanks for the ideas so far. This is very helpful.
Cheers, Shawn
PS: Just as an aside, what lasts longer in ground-contact, redwood or PT
(assuming GC level treatment)?
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:41:07 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.
>>
>> Dimensions are estimated from memory.
>>
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/onlinestorage/fencepostanchor/Fence%20Post%20Anchor.pdf
>
>
>THANK YOU Tom! I see now. Still I think I would be more comfortable with a
>24" strap than the illustrated 12". However I do have the ever present
>possibility of a hurricane every year. Fortunately none of mine that I have
>built in the last 5 years blew down after the storm last September, many did
>not do so well.
Here are several designs of commercially available post anchors from
Simpson:
http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
These are used to hold DECKS from falling down. They are strong.
Wind blows on decks and lots of moving weight surging across the
top as 20 to 30 people move. My back deck was larger than this house.
I miss the house and neighborhood. But not the problems.
Martin
Leon wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground setting on
>>> piers.
>> Yep.
>>
>>> Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over.
>> That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle lateral
>> loading from wind, snow, etc.
>
>
> So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And
> the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a
> suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have
> built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould come
> in handy at times.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:57:47 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Rima Neas" wrote:
>
>> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I
>> was thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass
>> resin or even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be
>> appreciated.
>
>Depends on your budget.
>
>The best, thus highest initial cost, would be to use Sonotubes, anchor
>bolts, end post brackets and bolts.
>
>Use the tubes as a concrete form and pour the concrete about 12" above
>grade and the anchor bolts in place using the template provided.
>
>Secure post bracket with anchor boots and bolt post to brackets.
>
>All hardware should be galvanized.
>
>Most expensive, but also most termite proof.
>
>Have fun
>
>Lew
>
I'm with Lew on this and you wouldn't have to sink your sonotubes all
the way into the hole. You can just stick them down enough to be able
to have them give you a form for the above grade part. You'd still do
a monolithic pour and, if you dig your holes cleanly and your ground
is good, you won't have to worry about a crack line at grade.
If the hole is sloppy and you have to batter board the form, I'd put
in a few #4 or #5 rebar.
For sure, I would not bury the posts in concrete. The posts will rot.
We used to treat them with creosote but , if we stuck them in
concrete, they still rotted.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:q5%[email protected]...
> These are used to hold DECKS from falling down. They are strong.
> Wind blows on decks and lots of moving weight surging across the
> top as 20 to 30 people move. My back deck was larger than this house.
BUT decks have an upper structure to help prevent sway and typically do not
have a large fence area to catch the wind.
Why not dig a hole, fill with concrete and put in a 4x4 bracket that
ties into the concrete and gives a water drip away area and holds a 4x4.
These are used on Deck footings. A post can be replaced easily.
The metal is thick and long lasting. Lots of capability at the
Nor Cal lumber Yards - (I, a long time resident who moved home ).
Martin
Rima Neas wrote:
> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...
>
> It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen over.
> Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown tone) DougFir
> for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly cheaper than
> ConHeart. But I am not at all happy about embedding wood directly in
> concrete. I keep thinking of concrete as basically a sponge that retains
> any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the dang fence again in this
> lifetime.
>
> Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was
> thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or even
> hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Cheers, Shawn
>
>
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b0094ea5-d8c7-4fa6-ac73-aec2256657b3@k19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in
any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is
just my speculation).
Agreed!
Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is
to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with
gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be
standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the
concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so
any water drains away and doesn't pool.
It is OK for the post to be standing in water when it rains, you don't want
them standing in a naturally wet area when the weather is dry, they need to
dry.
Alternative is some sort of Simpson post holder like a column base
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LCB-CB.asp. One trick is
to use some sort of standoff to hold the bottom of the post above
ground. The Simpson items called a post base have this built in but
they don't have enough attachment to the post, just a few nails. You
don't really need sono tubes, just some careful placement of the
embeds. I like to hang them in the hole from some temp structure and
use a soupy mix of concrete so it pours in and levels easy.
The problem with most of these above ground anchors is that they are
designed for something else to stabilize the other end of the post, like a
deck or porch covering. For a fence post application I am afraid the fence
might fall down with the first moderate gust of wind. IMHO the posts need
to be in the ground a minimum of 20-24".