I've been trying to get a handle on the use of shellac recently, so I
tried it on a couple of not so significant projects just to see how it
will work. I followed some suggestions I've picked up here and there
and ended up with exactly the look I wanted with one notable problem -
the stuff dries so fast that I can't get the next bit coated before
the first part is too dry. I ended up with all sorts of brush marks
and ugly stuff where I overlapped.
I'm using pre-mixed 3lb cut that I have thinned to a 2lb cut. The temp
when I was doing this was hot and dry, so that may have been a
contributing factor. The wood is birch plywood with 2 coats of Danish
oil. I used a foam brush per someone's recommendation, but I wasn't
impressed.
In theory I should be able to put another coat on and it will
partially dissolve the old finish and, if I don't add new brush marks,
it should pretty much wipe out the old ones. The problem is how to
avoid new brush marks.
Any and all help greatly appreciated.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On 3 Oct 2003 08:52:23 -0700, [email protected] (Patrick Olguin)
wrote:
>
>Well duh, Barry! Hell, I could use the fuzz offa my ass for washcoating.
Thanks for the visual.
Barry
I've sanded dry to evaluate progress until there was an even dullness
then wiped a thin cut for gloss then pumice, rottenstone, etc. Ensure
that there enough build before sanding.
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:20:25 -0400, "Montyhp" <montyhp at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> I've heard that wet-sanding with alcohol will give you a
>> nice final coat...but I haven't tried it, yet.
>
>No, alcohol would just make a mess. Try mineral spirits or water.
Tim Douglass wrote:
> In theory I should be able to put another coat on and it will
> partially dissolve the old finish and,
yes, it will.
> if I don't add new brush marks,
> it should pretty much wipe out the old ones. The problem is how to
> avoid new brush marks.
Try a thinner cut (1#) as your final coat -- it will dry slower.
I've heard that wet-sanding with alcohol will give you a
nice final coat...but I haven't tried it, yet.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:14:02 -0700, "Patrick Olguin (O'Deen)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Tim Douglass wrote:
>
>> I've been trying to get a handle on the use of shellac recently, so I
>> tried it on a couple of not so significant projects just to see how it
>> will work. I followed some suggestions I've picked up here and there
>> and ended up with exactly the look I wanted with one notable problem -
>> the stuff dries so fast that I can't get the next bit coated before
>> the first part is too dry. I ended up with all sorts of brush marks
>> and ugly stuff where I overlapped.
>>
>
>Tim,
>I have no idea who told you to use a foam brush with shellac. Hopefully
>they have died a horrible lingering death. If you're going to brush
>shellac convincingly, you'll want to use the right brush. I see where a
>badger brush was suggested. I've used badger brushes with some success
>over the years. And then I switched to a taklon brush... it rocked my
>little shellacky world.
I'll look for a good brush. Actually, in trying to recall it may have
been a NYW episode where Norm suggested the foam brush.
>Remember when brushing shellac you are "laying down," a finish. And you
>must move very quickly. As previously mentioned, DO NOT tip-off the brush.
>You'll pick-up partially dried, gummy finish from the lip of the jar and
>it just isn't necessary. Give the brush a gentle shake just after loading
>it, and you're ready to go.
The real issue seems to be on a large, flat, surface where I can't
cover the entire thing quickly enough. I brushed it on quickly across
about 12" of one end then went to do another band across the next 12".
The first part had dried so much in just the 30-40 seconds that I
couldn't get the next part to blend without creating serious marks
when I touched the partially dry stuff. All my previous experience is
with poly or standard varnish, where you have plenty of open time to
brush it out smoothly. The shellac was dry to the touch within 5
minutes and sticky inside 30 seconds - I just couldn't work fast
enough to keep up and still get any kind of even coating.
>You're gonna work quickly, right?
Well, I tried to. How quickly is quickly?
>A quick google search turned up this article. Enjoy
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=shellac+brushing+radovanic+group:rec.woodworking&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.woodworking&safe=off&selm=3927366f.36291932%40news.concentric.net&rnum=2
Some helpful stuff. How does one go about wiping shellac? Should I
just take my fabled lint-free rag and soak it well with shellac then
wipe it quickly over the entire surface? I do pretty much that with
oil finishes and end up with good results. I'm a bit concerned about
the rapid drying just gluing rag and all to the work and creating a
worse mess than I started with.
Current thoughts are:
1 - thin to 1# cut.
2 - use good brush and work fast with a fairly heavily loaded brush.
c - wet sand to smooth (generally sounds like a nasty amount of work
to me)
4 - wipe on one or two more coats.
5 - work in early morning before the temp in the shop is so high. Last
time it was probably around 90 and the humidity was in the low teens
or lower.
f - some combination of the above.
I really want this to work, the oil and shellac combination gives
exactly the look I want.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Tim Douglass wrote:
> I've been trying to get a handle on the use of shellac recently, so I
> tried it on a couple of not so significant projects just to see how it
> will work. I followed some suggestions I've picked up here and there
> and ended up with exactly the look I wanted with one notable problem -
> the stuff dries so fast that I can't get the next bit coated before
> the first part is too dry. I ended up with all sorts of brush marks
> and ugly stuff where I overlapped.
>
Tim,
I have no idea who told you to use a foam brush with shellac. Hopefully
they have died a horrible lingering death. If you're going to brush
shellac convincingly, you'll want to use the right brush. I see where a
badger brush was suggested. I've used badger brushes with some success
over the years. And then I switched to a taklon brush... it rocked my
little shellacky world.
Remember when brushing shellac you are "laying down," a finish. And you
must move very quickly. As previously mentioned, DO NOT tip-off the brush.
You'll pick-up partially dried, gummy finish from the lip of the jar and
it just isn't necessary. Give the brush a gentle shake just after loading
it, and you're ready to go.
You're gonna work quickly, right?
A quick google search turned up this article. Enjoy
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=shellac+brushing+radovanic+group:rec.woodworking&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.woodworking&safe=off&selm=3927366f.36291932%40news.concentric.net&rnum=2
O'Deen
--
http://www.klownhammer.org/ - Home of the World-Famous Original Crowbar
FAQ
> I'll look for a good brush. Actually, in trying to recall it may have
> been a NYW episode where Norm suggested the foam brush.
>
Therein lies the answer. Go to www.homesteadfinishing.com and get a golden taklon brush. Tell Jeff I sent ya. Hmmm. Make sure you have the price first, before you tell 'em that..
>
> The real issue seems to be on a large, flat, surface where I can't
> cover the entire thing quickly enough.
This sounds like a candidate for wiping. For me, I'm of two mindsets on this. If I brush, it's because I know I'm going to come back later and scrape the finish flat with a hand scraper.
The best scrapers for this, hands-down, are the super flexible offerings from Lie-Nielsen. The advantage to scraping a finish, versus sanding is that the finish will not corn-up on you, as
a partially-cured finish is apt to do.
So, ya load-up the brush, shake, lay on some finish. Repeat. This process is repeated literally every 5-10 seconds at most. If you're taking longer, you're working too slowly. Light
touch, loaded brush, lay down the finish with a feather touch. When the brush strokes begin to streak, time to reload. When working a long surface, begin three inches in from an edge. I'm
a righty, so I like to begin at the left edge. I brush out to the edge, then quickly brush back the other direction until I get to the right edge, then immediately reload and begin the next
"strip." Using a thin cut does two things. It almost eliminates drips, runs and sags, and it quickens the dry time. Ok, it does one more thing, it reduces the effect of the lap marks.
Remember, do not brush-in the finish. Lay it down. The brush contacts the surface of the wood as though it were an airplane doing touch-and-go's.
> Some helpful stuff. How does one go about wiping shellac? Should I
> just take my fabled lint-free rag and soak it well with shellac then
> wipe it quickly over the entire surface? I do pretty much that with
> oil finishes and end up with good results. I'm a bit concerned about
> the rapid drying just gluing rag and all to the work and creating a
> worse mess than I started with.
This shouldn't be a problem. Dip your lint-free rag in the shellac (a 1# cut is all ya need) in a wide bowl of shellac. Squeeze it out so it's just damp, and wipe down the surface as
though you were drying off your car. You should be able to cover it in a few seconds without having to dip the rag again. A light touch is best. You're putting down an incredibly thin layer
of shellac. That might seem a bit tedious and slow. It's not, because you're ready to recoat in a minute. Keep doing this wiping thing. When the rag begins to stick, you have a couple of
options. Stop for an hour or two or make a pad (wrap the rag around something absorbant like a wool sock or old diaper), apply a couple drops of mineral oil to the outside of the pad, dip,
squeeze and keep going.
This takes a little more skill, but only a little. You also use a bit more pressure on the pad. When it begins to drag, you're ready for more shellac. Some folks (myself included), prefer
to charge the pad using a squeeze bottle. Open the pad, squirt some shellac into the wadding, wrap your pad back up, give it a healthy squeeze to dispense the excess, and you're back in
business.
As long as you work with a thin cut, fresh alcohol and quality shellac, you shouldn't run into huge-gummy-mess issues.
One thing about shellac - your finish, the air and the wood should all be close to the same temperature. If not, you can end up with a blistered finish, as air trapped underneath it expands
too quickly for it to outgas through the curing (evaporative) film. Apply it in the shade, early in the morning before things have heated up, or later in the afternoon, once things have
maxed-out temperature-wise for the day. Do just about everything you can to avoid applying shellac in direct sunlight.
Lunch is a tradition invented so that we could take a break and allow the morning's shellac application to dry while the air temperature stabilizes in the middle of the day. That's my story
and I'm sticking (no pun intended) to it.
O'Deen
--
http://www.klownhammer.org/ - Home of the World-Famous Original Crowbar FAQ
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:14:02 -0700, "Patrick Olguin (O'Deen)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I have no idea who told you to use a foam brush with shellac.
>
> I use a foam brush with shellac all the time, for washcoating.
>
> Not for top coats, though!
Well duh, Barry! Hell, I could use the fuzz offa my ass for washcoating.
"Patrick Olguin (O'Deen)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > I'll look for a good brush. Actually, in trying to recall it may have
> > been a NYW episode where Norm suggested the foam brush.
> >
>
> Therein lies the answer.
[clip]
I apologize for the previous formatting disaster. I dunno what the
hell went wrong with my newsreader. Geesh I hate computers.
O'Deen
Tim Douglass <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]: <snip for brev>
> Some helpful stuff. How does one go about wiping shellac? Should I
> just take my fabled lint-free rag and soak it well with shellac then
> wipe it quickly over the entire surface? I do pretty much that with
> oil finishes and end up with good results. I'm a bit concerned about
> the rapid drying just gluing rag and all to the work and creating a
> worse mess than I started with.
>
> Current thoughts are:
>
> 1 - thin to 1# cut.
> 2 - use good brush and work fast with a fairly heavily loaded brush.
> c - wet sand to smooth (generally sounds like a nasty amount of work
> to me)
> 4 - wipe on one or two more coats.
> 5 - work in early morning before the temp in the shop is so high. Last
> time it was probably around 90 and the humidity was in the low teens
> or lower.
> f - some combination of the above.
>
> I really want this to work, the oil and shellac combination gives
> exactly the look I want.
>
> Tim Douglass
>
> http://www.DouglassClan.com
>
I have been using shellac lately myself.(1 to 2 Lb cuts made from flake)
I have had no problem applying it with a brush,
but the largest surface area I have used a brush on has been
24" by 10" or there bouts. I have had good results consistently,
using a cotton rag, like a cotton t-shit, with a rolled up wad of
wool in the center of the cotton rag. I found that using cotton fabric
with the "wool center" worked MUCH better. The wool stores the shellac,
and dispenses it to the cotton outer via capillary action, and allows
for precise/even flow. It was a more controllable process, than the
other processes I have tried to date. You might want to try it out.
Kruppt
I know it's not an elegant answer but I thin from a #2 cut to the temp/humidity
levels I'm working in. This usually works out to be between #1 and 2#. Of
course there are retarders you can add but I haven't found them necessary for
brush work and I've yet to spray shellac.
Recently I was made a believer in good brushes, the one I like for shellac is
made of taklon fiber, mine was around $30 and really worth the money. The
unique thing about the taklon fiber is the way the material flows from the brush
at a very consistant rate which allows you to make long steady even stokes from
edge to edge. Once you get the hang of it you find that there is much less time
spend tipping off brushmarks.
David
In article <[email protected]>, Tim Douglass says...
>
>I've been trying to get a handle on the use of shellac recently, so I
>tried it on a couple of not so significant projects just to see how it
>will work. I followed some suggestions I've picked up here and there
>and ended up with exactly the look I wanted with one notable problem -
>the stuff dries so fast that I can't get the next bit coated before
>the first part is too dry. I ended up with all sorts of brush marks
>and ugly stuff where I overlapped.
>
>I'm using pre-mixed 3lb cut that I have thinned to a 2lb cut. The temp
>when I was doing this was hot and dry, so that may have been a
>contributing factor. The wood is birch plywood with 2 coats of Danish
>oil. I used a foam brush per someone's recommendation, but I wasn't
>impressed.
>
>In theory I should be able to put another coat on and it will
>partially dissolve the old finish and, if I don't add new brush marks,
>it should pretty much wipe out the old ones. The problem is how to
>avoid new brush marks.
>
>Any and all help greatly appreciated.
>
>Tim Douglass
>
>http://www.DouglassClan.com
I have a hybrid of the round type, its an oval lily, huge reseviour, its more of
an oils brush but also considered quite good for shellac. I'm still making my
bones with the taklon for now, later I'll get better acquainted with the lily.
Actually I did French Polish for quite a while before I ever attempted a real
brushed shellac finish. Way fun and very fogiving, I've even taught my pre-teen
son who has a better hand at it than I do. Go figure! :)
David
In article <[email protected]>, George says...
>
>Others like a round brush for its ability to hold finish, and thus fewer
>time-consuming trips to the jar. I use a badger hair brush, and I never tip
>off shellac. As you have noticed, it creates more problems than it solves.
>More solvent gives it a little longer to lie down, and you can use slower
>solvent like propanol if you really need it.
>
>I like to take a rag, some 1-2# cut in a squeeze bottle, and make a rubber.
>If you need a bit of lube on the rag, have another squeeze bottle available
>with some olive, or grapeseed, or light mineral oil. A drop or two will
>keep things sliding and build a finish for you pretty rapidly. Just
>remember that the objective is to apply hundreds of thin coats quickly, and
>don't stay in one area too long. If you do, it's gum time.
>
>"Bannerstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Recently I was made a believer in good brushes, the one I like for shellac
>is
>> made of taklon fiber, mine was around $30 and really worth the money. The
>> unique thing about the taklon fiber is the way the material flows from the
>brush
>> at a very consistant rate which allows you to make long steady even stokes
>from
>> edge to edge. Once you get the hang of it you find that there is much
>less time
>> spend tipping off brushmarks.
>>
>
>
"Patrick Olguin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Well duh, Barry! Hell, I could use the fuzz offa my ass for washcoating.
I believe you. Please, do NOT post pictures though.
Ed
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:14:02 -0700, "Patrick Olguin (O'Deen)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I have no idea who told you to use a foam brush with shellac.
I use a foam brush with shellac all the time, for washcoating.
Not for top coats, though!
Barry
Others like a round brush for its ability to hold finish, and thus fewer
time-consuming trips to the jar. I use a badger hair brush, and I never tip
off shellac. As you have noticed, it creates more problems than it solves.
More solvent gives it a little longer to lie down, and you can use slower
solvent like propanol if you really need it.
I like to take a rag, some 1-2# cut in a squeeze bottle, and make a rubber.
If you need a bit of lube on the rag, have another squeeze bottle available
with some olive, or grapeseed, or light mineral oil. A drop or two will
keep things sliding and build a finish for you pretty rapidly. Just
remember that the objective is to apply hundreds of thin coats quickly, and
don't stay in one area too long. If you do, it's gum time.
"Bannerstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Recently I was made a believer in good brushes, the one I like for shellac
is
> made of taklon fiber, mine was around $30 and really worth the money. The
> unique thing about the taklon fiber is the way the material flows from the
brush
> at a very consistant rate which allows you to make long steady even stokes
from
> edge to edge. Once you get the hang of it you find that there is much
less time
> spend tipping off brushmarks.
>
"Chris Merrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tim Douglass wrote:
> > In theory I should be able to put another coat on and it will
> > partially dissolve the old finish and,
>
> yes, it will.
>
> > if I don't add new brush marks,
> > it should pretty much wipe out the old ones. The problem is how to
> > avoid new brush marks.
>
> Try a thinner cut (1#) as your final coat -- it will dry slower.
>
> I've heard that wet-sanding with alcohol will give you a
> nice final coat...but I haven't tried it, yet.
No, alcohol would just make a mess. Try mineral spirits or water.
Montyhp
>
> --
> ************************************
> Chris Merrill
> [email protected]
> (remove the ZZZ to contact me)
> ************************************
>