After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
(from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
>problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
[snip]
1. Silicone used in shop.
2. air Oiler used with hoses you used for your spray gun.
Wes
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Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
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Gerry <[email protected]> wrote:
>On the silicone sensitivity issue: I had a 20x40 basement. Did machining at
>one end, using silicone and other lub sprays, and the compressor in the
>middle. At the other end I'd open the bulkhead doors and set up an exhaust fan
>to do spray finishing. Used oil and water base, and lived there 27 years but
>never saw fish eye. Not to say you shouldn't be careful, but just that it
>doesn't seek out the wood.
>
>BTW, silicon is _not_ the only contaminant that causes fish eye, especially if
>your using water base.
>
>GerryG
At a place now defunct that made automotive interior trim components
such as painted rear package trays (shelf panels). The spraying of
silicone by maintenace techs in that 100,000 sq ft building caused
fisheye on our paint line. The shelf panels were made out of
'superwood'. Something like sheet goods on the line between masonite
and chip board. The backs of old tv's had this stuff in the old days
before plastic. We used to 3d form the stuff and then paint it,
later, carpet it.
This was with waterborn paints.
Wes
Wes
--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
Lycos address is a spam trap.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
> problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
> Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
> followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
> acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
> leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
> returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
> to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
> spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
> (from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
> they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
Besides the other stuff mentioned by others...
Did you by chance use air tools during your sanding? Oil can
find its way out of the system through the exhaust of the tools.
Shellac HAS been considered BUT that would be running awat from the
problem. Had an abrasion on my ankle that refused to heal. A
"dermatologist" said "We can cut it off and thow it away and wonder
what it was" and I don't want to do that again. Asked Jeff Jewitt
about end of life issue and he agreed he'd like to quantify it but too
many variables. Couple of wash coats of shellac and the USL again.
Another can of USL on the way. Contaminated filter most likely (I
think).
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:39:37 -0400, Gerry <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hmm..does that sound a bit suspicious? Wonder if you might want to let that
>USL settle in the can for awhile, then take a took with a raking light. If not
>that, might be the hose. With a clean hose, most compressors (even oil lubs)
>will not put out enough vapor or oil to immediately contaminate. So if your
>hose and gun are clean, try getting rid of the other stuff.
>
>If all else fails, finish it with shellac:-)
>GerryG
>
>On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:26:57 -0400, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Two coats 1.5# Sealcoat then USL. First 80% of USL went fine then
>>fish eyes showed up. Hour later second coat USL with almost 100% of
>>surface with contamination. Got separator to put at compressor and
>>will change the DeVilbiss disposable filter at the gun prior to any
>>more spraying. Asked DeVilbiss tech support via E-mail about criteria
>>for detemining end of life but would be surprised to get any response,
>>identified myself as hobbiest user. Still would be nice to know how
>>to determine when to change! Post at www.targetcoatings.com today
>>asked about fish eyes in USL though he was finishing two different
>>things and one was free and other contaminated.
>>
>>On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:49:06 -0400, "[email protected]"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>NO silicone in garage that is known! Disposable air filter at
>>>regulator at gun input. Brad nailer gets oil so no oiler anywhere.
>>>Separate post identified supposed source of contamination, my dumping
>>>the compressor tank too fast with vapor stream aimed in general
>>>direction of table and resultant droplets contaminating tabletop. Two
>>>coats dewaxed shellac sprayed today with clearcoat USL to go on
>>>probably tomorrow.
>
NO silicone in garage that is known! Disposable air filter at
regulator at gun input. Brad nailer gets oil so no oiler anywhere.
Separate post identified supposed source of contamination, my dumping
the compressor tank too fast with vapor stream aimed in general
direction of table and resultant droplets contaminating tabletop. Two
coats dewaxed shellac sprayed today with clearcoat USL to go on
probably tomorrow.
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:37:16 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
>>problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
>
>[snip]
>
>1. Silicone used in shop.
>2. air Oiler used with hoses you used for your spray gun.
>
>Wes
I'm assuming you're talking about Target Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer, which is
a water reduced acrylic copolymer. (Why are most acronyms three letters? Will
we ever run out of them?) Haven't used it, but would expect behavior similar
to most other water bourne finishes. Since you applied vinegar, I assume you
used the cleaner to strip the finish from the wood, and not just to clean the
gun.
Provided you did wash it off, and I suspect it's only used for PH correction,
I don't expect the vinegar to play a role here. If you suspect the wood was
contaminated, a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac should resolve it. I don't
think that cleaner would remove the contaminents. Alternately, is it possible
the issue is not fish eyes, but perhaps peal? You might try posting this on
the Homestead finishing forum, as Jeff J. sells those products.
GerryG
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:08:47 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
>problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
>Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
>followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
>acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
>leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
>returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
>to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
>spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
>(from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
>they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
The fisheyes more than likely came from something on your hands. Even the
smallest bit of contaminent will make them eyes. Did you or anyone touching
your wood use any kind of hand creams? Seen it happen many many times.
"Gerry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm assuming you're talking about Target Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer,
which is
> a water reduced acrylic copolymer. (Why are most acronyms three letters?
Will
> we ever run out of them?) Haven't used it, but would expect behavior
similar
> to most other water bourne finishes. Since you applied vinegar, I assume
you
> used the cleaner to strip the finish from the wood, and not just to clean
the
> gun.
>
> Provided you did wash it off, and I suspect it's only used for PH
correction,
> I don't expect the vinegar to play a role here. If you suspect the wood
was
> contaminated, a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac should resolve it. I don't
> think that cleaner would remove the contaminents. Alternately, is it
possible
> the issue is not fish eyes, but perhaps peal? You might try posting this
on
> the Homestead finishing forum, as Jeff J. sells those products.
> GerryG
>
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:08:47 -0400, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
> >problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
> >Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
> >followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
> >acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
> >leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
> >returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
> >to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
> >spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
> >(from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
> >they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
>
>
Could you have used a silicone containing product ANYWHERE in the shop
where you are working? You would be surprised how a lubricant used at one
end of the shop, or near an intake for your ventilation system can play
havoc with fisheye. I will assume that you did not use a fisheye destroyer
in your gun prior to the problem. Vinegar is not the problem. You may need
a more appropriate gun cleaner.
To deal with the current problem, spray two light coats of dewaxed
shellac. Do not brush them on as it will only stir the silicone to the top.
Good Luck.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
> problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
> Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
> followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
> acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
> leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
> returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
> to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
> spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
> (from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
> they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
>Subject: Re: Fish eye contamination source?
>From: "Baron" [email protected]
>Date: 6/20/04 3:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
> Could you have used a silicone containing product ANYWHERE in the shop
>where you are working? You would be surprised how a lubricant used at one
>end of the shop, or near an intake for your ventilation system can play
>havoc with fisheye.
any kind of aerosol spray (solvent or lube) used anywhere near (or what may
seem to be far) your painting can cause fisheye problems.
I used some spray lube about 35 ft (outside & away) from garage painting area
and 1/2 hour later painted some window sashses in the garage. Fisheyes
appeared & reapeared for the next hour or so.
The spray droplets can remain air borne for a very long time.
Two coats 1.5# Sealcoat then USL. First 80% of USL went fine then
fish eyes showed up. Hour later second coat USL with almost 100% of
surface with contamination. Got separator to put at compressor and
will change the DeVilbiss disposable filter at the gun prior to any
more spraying. Asked DeVilbiss tech support via E-mail about criteria
for detemining end of life but would be surprised to get any response,
identified myself as hobbiest user. Still would be nice to know how
to determine when to change! Post at www.targetcoatings.com today
asked about fish eyes in USL though he was finishing two different
things and one was free and other contaminated.
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:49:06 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>NO silicone in garage that is known! Disposable air filter at
>regulator at gun input. Brad nailer gets oil so no oiler anywhere.
>Separate post identified supposed source of contamination, my dumping
>the compressor tank too fast with vapor stream aimed in general
>direction of table and resultant droplets contaminating tabletop. Two
>coats dewaxed shellac sprayed today with clearcoat USL to go on
>probably tomorrow.
You didn't, by any chance use a silicone product on your tablesaw did you?
RJ
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
> problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
> Received a shipment of Fuhr #330 Universal Cleaner that was used
> followed by white vinegar/water to neutralize the cleaner then 1:1
> acetone/water to rinse out gun between coatings. Sanded down today
> leaving pinpoint spots of shiny finish and sprayed clear USL and they
> returned. Wasn't surprised but would like to know what the cause is
> to avoid replication! Soaked and brushed gun components prior to
> spraying today but didn't use vinegar as that is MY primary suspect
> (from my point of ignorance as chem lectures weren't meaningful and
> they were YRARS ago). Ideas?
Thanks much for comments and I believe what I did to cause the problem
was rapidly dump the compressor air toward the direction of the table
and the vapor was possibly dirty as it settled out of the air. I put
a ball valve on the tank for draining air/water and recall one quick
turn of the valve completely open and a cloud of vapor exited.
Shellac coats today and more Ultima Spray Lacquer tommorow. Target
Coatings switched from their Premium name for PSL to Ultima for USL.
Upgrade to ball valve to control direction of vapor cloud shortly.
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:08:47 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
>problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
On the silicone sensitivity issue: I had a 20x40 basement. Did machining at
one end, using silicone and other lub sprays, and the compressor in the
middle. At the other end I'd open the bulkhead doors and set up an exhaust fan
to do spray finishing. Used oil and water base, and lived there 27 years but
never saw fish eye. Not to say you shouldn't be careful, but just that it
doesn't seek out the wood.
BTW, silicon is _not_ the only contaminant that causes fish eye, especially if
your using water base.
GerryG
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:49:06 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>NO silicone in garage that is known! Disposable air filter at
>regulator at gun input. Brad nailer gets oil so no oiler anywhere.
>Separate post identified supposed source of contamination, my dumping
>the compressor tank too fast with vapor stream aimed in general
>direction of table and resultant droplets contaminating tabletop. Two
>coats dewaxed shellac sprayed today with clearcoat USL to go on
>probably tomorrow.
>
>On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:37:16 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>After several coats of Target USL and TransTint as tones without
>>>problems started topcoating with clear USL and up pops fish eyes!
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>1. Silicone used in shop.
>>2. air Oiler used with hoses you used for your spray gun.
>>
>>Wes
Hmm..does that sound a bit suspicious? Wonder if you might want to let that
USL settle in the can for awhile, then take a took with a raking light. If not
that, might be the hose. With a clean hose, most compressors (even oil lubs)
will not put out enough vapor or oil to immediately contaminate. So if your
hose and gun are clean, try getting rid of the other stuff.
If all else fails, finish it with shellac:-)
GerryG
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:26:57 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Two coats 1.5# Sealcoat then USL. First 80% of USL went fine then
>fish eyes showed up. Hour later second coat USL with almost 100% of
>surface with contamination. Got separator to put at compressor and
>will change the DeVilbiss disposable filter at the gun prior to any
>more spraying. Asked DeVilbiss tech support via E-mail about criteria
>for detemining end of life but would be surprised to get any response,
>identified myself as hobbiest user. Still would be nice to know how
>to determine when to change! Post at www.targetcoatings.com today
>asked about fish eyes in USL though he was finishing two different
>things and one was free and other contaminated.
>
>On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:49:06 -0400, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>NO silicone in garage that is known! Disposable air filter at
>>regulator at gun input. Brad nailer gets oil so no oiler anywhere.
>>Separate post identified supposed source of contamination, my dumping
>>the compressor tank too fast with vapor stream aimed in general
>>direction of table and resultant droplets contaminating tabletop. Two
>>coats dewaxed shellac sprayed today with clearcoat USL to go on
>>probably tomorrow.