I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
hole.
After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
butter.
It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
Here is the result:
http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
results.
Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
Home Depot.
Jon
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
> A quality lag bolt was purchased (stainless steel, US made) from a
> fastener store.
The US has been out of the general fastener business for decades.
Had a couple of customers who were fastener manufacturers go belly up
while I was still back in Cleveland, a town that was, at one time, a
major fastener manufacturing center.
Most of the S/S comes in from India these days.
Lew
"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
>>
>> -- Andy Barss
>
> Ace has consistently had the highest prices for any item you can mention,
> unless it's on the clearance rack, and then, it's just under what the
> other stores sell it for every day. Surely you jest.
>
Those Ace Hardware stores are independently owned and operated. The prices,
selection and service varies widely from location to location.
I have two close to me. The one that has been there forever has an
extensive selection of fasteners, cheaper than big box stores and much
better quality. The one that opened recently has less selection, surly help
and more expensive prices.
Guess which one I go to.
A case in point. I needed some deck screws recently to do a fence repair.
The BORG only had the deck screws in those expensive little boxes. And they
did not have the sizes I needed either. And they were quite expensive as
well. I went to the Ace Hardware, got three different sizes of deck screws
from the bulk bins and paid for a pound of fasteners.
And their deck screws are tough little bastards too. I have used them for
several repairs. I probably saved at least $20 over Home Depot prices on
this job alone. And as been pointed out elsewhere recently, there is no
telling what kind of quality you get when paying the big bucks at the BORG.
"Tom Watson" wrote:
> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as
> .173".
>
> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
SFWIW, I use 75% of fastener size for the pilot hole size rounded to
nearest standard size drill which can be either fractional, letter, or
number size.
YMMV
Lew
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Andrew Barss wrote:
> In rec.woodworking Steve B <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : news:[email protected]...
> :> In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
> :> <snip>
> :>
> :> Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
> :>
> :> -- Andy Barss
>
> : Ace has consistently had the highest prices for any item you can
> : mention, unless it's on the clearance rack, and then, it's just under
> : what the other
> : stores sell it for every day. Surely you jest.
>
> They're independently owned and managed, and may be different where you
> are. Here (Southern AZ), I have one a couple miles away which has a
> pretty deep stock of decent hardware (grade 5 included), along with a
> billion things you'd never find at HD or Lowe's (cotter pins, motor shaft
> keys, brushes for electric motors,...). if I need something really
> obscure, there's one about 6 miles away which is enormous, and
> has pretty much anything I've ever needed that isn't made of a strange
> metal.
Is that the one on Grant Road?
Where is the other one? There's one up here off Cortaro Road, but it is
one of the newer, more "boutique" types, not a lot of obscure stuff.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On Dec 16, 10:54=A0am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> .> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
> > --
>
> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good as f=
or
> layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting smaller an=
d
> smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and have=
to
> be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get out,
> it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting smaller too=
.
> In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day when =
it
> will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized skateboard.
That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:22:17 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>>>> <[email protected]> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>>>>
>>>>> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why not?
>>>
>>> A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
>>> a real hardware store is purely unintentional.
>>
>>
>>That really depends on how they're run by the individual owners. The one I
>>use is pretty remarkable.
>
> I've been in two that were quite good (both in the Poughkeepsie NY
> area). All others have been pretty unremarkable.
A pretty high percentage of ALL small businesses fail, and it's not always
because of competition. Why should hardware stores be any different?
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
>
> -- Andy Barss
Ace has consistently had the highest prices for any item you can mention,
unless it's on the clearance rack, and then, it's just under what the other
stores sell it for every day. Surely you jest.
Steve
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>>
>>
>> These diseases spread much too easily.
>
> Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by characters
in cartoon strips.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> What is WTF? ;~)
>
> Among other things, it's a blanket:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h05ZQ7WHw8Y
LOL..... Kim bought my mother a WTF blanket for Christmas. You know I
will have to stir the s__t, I'll be sure and show her. Maybe not, now
that I have had a few seconds to think about that. ;~)
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> <[email protected]> said:
>
>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>
> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>
Why not?
notbob <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-12-16, The Ranger <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> My two-time experiences with McFeeleys...
>
> Hey Range! I didn't know you could drive a nail. ;)
Thanks, nb; Merry (fuckin') Christmas to you too. Ya CO Refugee PITA.
I've been drivin' nails, torquin' bolts, and other sundry DIY jobs for
several decades now. Some jobs were easier than others and some jobs should
have been left to professionals (or at least the professionals should have
been called in earlier) but I'm very much a DIYer. It learning my
limitations that's been the [mostly] fun part.
The Ranger
On Dec 16, 7:57=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>.... The category of real hardware stores includes:
>...
> - any hardware store with worn wooden floors and a little bell on the fro=
nt
> door that tinkles when you walk in, where any employees under the age of
> forty are the owner's grandchildren; sadly, these places are getting hard=
er
> and harder to find.
I grew up in a small town in Southern Oklahoma. We had a "real"
hardware store on Main Street. Locally owned, at least 3
generations. Everybody had gone to school with at least one of the
Stolfa kids. Didn't look like much from the front. When you walked
in the front door, it had one of those little "tinkle" bells on a
spring at the top. Hardwood floors about 100 years old that creaked
as you walked across them. You could get help, advise (and you could
rely on it being accurate), or just opinions about everything from the
wether to the next local or college football game. The smell varied
as you walked to different parts of the store; a chemical-fertilizer
smell was predominant, with paint and varnish in one corner, a greasy-
oily-gasoline smell over by the lawnmowers and garden machinery. They
had some of everything, nuts and bolts to gaskets for pressure
cookers, I even bought asbestos sheets to fix a space heater. I asked
one of the guys once if they had a molasses gate, and without a blink,
he asked "what size do you need?".
Then WalMart came to town. The manager complained that the high
quality cutlery he carried cost more from his distributor than the
most expensive stuff WalMart carried at retail. They just couldn't
compete, and when WallyWorld put in a Super Store, it was the final
nail in the coffin. I really hated to see them go. This was repeated
in several other locally owned businesses, from stationary stores, to
small sporting goods, to auto parts. We had a family-owned auto
repair shop. We finally closed after almost 20 years. The folks that
bought us out made it for another 3 years.
On 2009-12-17, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
> to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
> can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
> softwoods that tend often to "crumble".
Hmmm....
Seems like it would be the opposite, the softer wood requiring a
smaller pilot hole for more compression in surrounding wood to
"ensure" a solid bite in a wood that tends to "crumble".
nb
"Smitty Two" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:prestwhich-494CD7.04234016122009@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier
>> this
>> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8"
>> pilot
>> hole.
>>
>> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
>> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't
>> giving
>> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
>> butter.
>>
>> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>>
>> Here is the result:
>>
>> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>>
>> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
>> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>>
>> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
>> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
>> results.
>>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>>
>> Jon
>
> Hardware comes in grades. Next time get grade 5 or better. But a 1/8"
> pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter of
> the shank.
And what diameter would that be, since lags are tapered? And if there were
such a diameter, you would mean "root diameter" or minor diameter -- right?
But that's ok.... I'm sure the concept of conventional vs climb cutting is
going to take another few weeks to properly gel in your brain -- all this
other stuff will come in due time. Heh, mebbe you can study with yer buddee
RicodJour.
> Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together, with
> the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw should be
> unobscured by the drill.
Altho ahm no 'spert on wood, I doubt that the pilot hole should be exactly a
root diameter (if there were one) for wood. After all, yer not tapping the
wood like metal.
Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
I'm sure there has to be some compression of the wood fibre, for adequate
strength, when drilling pilots. 1/8" actually sounds about right.
--
EA
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
I've had the very same thing happen to me in non-HD hardware, about 20 years
ago, using a ratchet, with an anchor in masonry, with a bit more torque than
for drywall, but still surprising. Could have been a crappy quality as
well, but it sure spooked me on lag bolts.
Stainless is an option, as well.
As others have commented, HD is no bargain, and stuff that appears like a
bargain is usually so low in quality as to be near useless, like their
low-priced ply, etc.
Others have mentioned that reputable companies sposedly have "HD versions",
like Bosch, etc. No doubt true for bulk items.
HD, Staples, and all rest are boils on the asses of their respective areas,
rotting our social fabric, and grinning examples of anti-trust-type
violations.
Heh, yet I go to HD at least 1x/month.... well, cuz their Hitler-esque plan
worked!
Wait 'til they start closing their stores, so's you gotta travel 50 miles,
on top of it all.
--
EA
>
> Jon
>
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 12/16/2009 03:21, Jon Danniken wrote:
>
>>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
> Without having them tested how would you know? You are pretty much
> guaranteed that the fasteners you can buy there are the lowest quality
> they you can possibly buy.
Which is the mantra of all predatory organizations.
Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
--
EA
>
> You can get much better quality (and actually pay less) at industrial
> supply houses.
Jon Danniken wrote:
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
"Smitty Two" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:prestwhich-C88575.05382816122009@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Smitty Two wrote:
>> > But a 1/8"
>> > pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter
>> > of the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together,
>> > with the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw
>> > should be unobscured by the drill.
>>
>> No, an 1/8" is actually too small for a 1/4" (size 14) screw:
>>
>> http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/woodscrewpilotholes.htm
>>
>> Jon
>
> I thought I said that. I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet. BTW,
> that table is for tapered wood screws. I didn't think lag screws were
> tapered.
You are right -- they are not tapered. Heh, you just may grasp climb
cutting sooner than I predicted!
The root diameter on a 1/4" lag is almost exactly 3/16.
A 1/8" pilot would cause about 1/32" (.032) compression, "on the radius" --
which, if too much, is a whole lot better than *no pilot*, which is what
proly 95% of people do.
Proly the pilot size would depend on the wood and on the grain orientation,
as well.
But as I think about it, and look at a lag bolt, mebbe a pilot closer to
3/16 than 1/8 IS appropriate, esp. for long lag bolts. Mebbe 11/64.
--
EA
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>
>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>> at Home Depot.
>>
>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>
>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>
>
> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
Proly not.
--
EA
>
>
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:40:24 -0500, aemeijers <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
>if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same
>repair job twice, I guess.
>--
Same here, and TS sells their hardware by the pound. It's always
where I go first. I just bought a boatload of grade 2 & 5 carriage
bolts, nuts, washers, etc. for around $8 ($1.99/lb). The grade 8
are a little more expensive if you need them, but not unreasonable.
I was at Lowes later for something else, so just did a quick double
check to see how far off they were. Grade 1 bolts alone were nearly
$15.
8 (1/2 x4) = $8.80 ($1.10 each).
4 (1/2 x6) = $6.00 ($1.50 each).
The irony is that I'm using a plan I found at Lowes.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 12/16/2009 09:09, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> "Existential Angst"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> "SMS"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk
>>>>>> bin
>>>>>> at Home Depot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>>>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>>>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>>
>>> Proly not.
>>> --
>>> EA
>>
>>
>>
>> WTF is a "proly"?
>>
>>
> Someone who forgot they weren't "talking" to their teenage friends with
> some form of instant messaging..
You mean, like, my BFFs?
--
EA
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Proly not.
>>> --
>>> EA
>>
>>
>>
>> WTF is a "proly"?
>
>
> Proly = Probably, What is WTF? ;~)
I thought proly was short for proberbly.
--
EA
>
>
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
> like this.
My understanding is that large Mormon families buy vaseline by the pallet.
Generic, of course.
--
EA
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I first twisted off lag screws starting in 1979. Lag screws
> in general are
> not strong unless you get stainless steel.
>
> IIRC I try to give to lag screws a polit hole size the size
> of the body or a
> bit larger.
>
> Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246"
> thread diameter
> requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
>
> Additionally you do not want to bottom out a lag screw, the
> point on the end
> helps guide not pull the screw into the wood.
>
>
>
"JustTom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:40:24 -0500, aemeijers <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>>Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
>>if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same
>>repair job twice, I guess.
>>--
>
> Same here, and TS sells their hardware by the pound. It's always
> where I go first. I just bought a boatload of grade 2 & 5 carriage
> bolts, nuts, washers, etc. for around $8 ($1.99/lb). The grade 8
> are a little more expensive if you need them, but not unreasonable.
>
> I was at Lowes later for something else, so just did a quick double
> check to see how far off they were. Grade 1 bolts alone were nearly
> $15.
>
> 8 (1/2 x4) = $8.80 ($1.10 each).
> 4 (1/2 x6) = $6.00 ($1.50 each).
>
> The irony is that I'm using a plan I found at Lowes.
Indeed, the mark of a good hardware store is where you CAN by stuff by the
pound.
--
EA
>
>
"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-12-16, Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier
>> this
>> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8"
>> pilot
>> hole.
>>
>> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
>> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't
>> giving
>> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
>> butter.
>
> All is relative. Grade bolt, pilot hole, lengh of wrench handle,
> strength of operator, number of beers, etc. Frankly, I was surprised
> to hear of such a thing as a 1/4" lag bolt.
>
> http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/lag-bolt-pilot-hole.htm
wow.... they rec a 7/32 pilot hole for hardwood!
The stainless fasteners link seems to have good prices.
--
EA
> http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalinformation/bolt-torque-chart.html
> http://www.stainless-fasteners.com/stainless-bolts/SSLag_bolts14.htm
>
>
> nb
>
>
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>>spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>
>
> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
I measured a 1/4", just one, and its root measured .186-.187 top to bottom.
I don't imagine lags are a precision item, tho.
And one of the links someone posted gives the pilot as 3/16 in softwood,
7/32 in hard!
It also mentioned grease or vegeteable oil as a lube, but cautioned against
soap.
1/4 lags are fragile, tho. I'd use 5/16 on anything semi-substantial.
--
EA
>
> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On 12/16/2009 4:23 AM Smitty Two spake thus:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot
>> earlier this evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after
>> pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot hole.
>>
>> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding
>> a 3/8" ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I
>> wasn't giving it much torque, just making sure that it was secure,
>> when it turned to butter.
>>
>> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall
>> screws.
>
> Hardware comes in grades. Next time get grade 5 or better. But a 1/8"
> pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter of
> the shank.
Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot hole,
then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag bolts.
"They" recommend a 3/16" pilot hole in softwood, and 7/32" in hardwood
(and fir is pretty hard wood for softwood).
See: http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/lag-bolt-pilot-hole.htm
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
- harvested from Usenet
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>>>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>>>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>>>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>>>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>>>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>>>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>>>
>>>
>>> These diseases spread much too easily.
>>
>> Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
>
>
> I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by characters
> in cartoon strips.
Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm valley-speak
that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That, and effing
rap-speak... yo.
--
EA
>
>
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 12/16/2009 07:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
>>> requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
>>
>> That seems odd.
>>
>> For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
>> 0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
>> hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity greater
>> than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the threads
>> don't engage, of course.
>>
>> The above is from:
>>
>> http://www.awc.org/pdf/NDSCommentaryCompressed/Part11WoodScrewspp133to139.pdf
>>
>> Chris
>
> I did not look and don't doubt your findings but if fully embedded threads
> are not going to hold, a tight hole is not going to be any better. IMHO
> making the pilot hole smaller will crush the wood fibers when the screw
> goes in and in turn would weaken the part that the threads cut into. Then
> add to that the unnessary extra torque to properly seat the screw which
> IMHO would increase the chance of breakage.
Well, it seems to me that compression would strengthen the material
surrounding the lag threads.
Think roll tapping (or thread forming) vs cut tapping, and/or think of a
simple nail that compresses wood fibers.
Roll tapping sposedly forms a stronger thread than cut tapping -- not
perfectly analogous here, but it does sort of illustrate the benefit and
strength of displaced material.
The Q is: what is the best overall compromise?
In soft wood, I would go .010 smaller than root diameter, just to
guarantee full thread engagement, esp. with iffy drilling. Which would only
be .005 worth of compression.
But, appaently in hard wood, you don't even want full engagement! Go
figger....
The japanese dispensed with threads altogether, and just used
dowels/pins/pegs.
In the case, say, of a corner fence post, if you put snug-ish dowels in X,
Y, and Z (per joint), the joint would be fully constrained. If all dowel
holes were made through holes, the dowels could be easily removed.
Actually, I think you could just as well dispense with the Z dowel, as each
dowel effectively constrains 2 dimensions.
Don't know how practical this is, but it does have its own elegance.
I heard recently about japanese/tibetan structures fastened like this, still
standing after centuries -- nary a thread in sight. Of course, gravity
helps in these cases, as well.
--
EA
>
>
>
>
>
>
On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<[email protected]> said:
> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
And Ace and TruValue don't count.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>>>>>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>>>>>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>>>>>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>>>>>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>>>>>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>>>>>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> These diseases spread much too easily.
>>>>
>>>> Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
>>>
>>>
>>> I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
>>> characters in cartoon strips.
>>
>> Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm valley-speak
>> that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That, and effing
>> rap-speak... yo.
>
> Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york street
> punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that language was
> important.
It's not New York.
It's N'yawk, one word.
Or, depending, New Jork.
If Bloomberg has his way, it will be New "Poor people not allowed/Owned by
Bloomberg" York.
--
EA
>
On 2009-12-17, The Ranger <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks, nb; Merry (fuckin') Christmas to you too. Ya CO Refugee PITA.
Gawd, how I miss that native CA warmth. ;)
> been called in earlier) but I'm very much a DIYer. It learning my
> limitations that's been the [mostly] fun part.
Ditto here. Right now its kinda hard to drive a deck screw through 2
ft snow, but come Spring I'll be make sawdust again. You and the clan
have a Merry Christmas, also, and when it warms up, run over to the
Coast and make sure the Pacific is still there. I worry so.
nb
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:01:34 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:22:17 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why not?
>>>>
>>>> A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
>>>> a real hardware store is purely unintentional.
>>>
>>>
>>>That really depends on how they're run by the individual owners. The one I
>>>use is pretty remarkable.
>>
>> I've been in two that were quite good (both in the Poughkeepsie NY
>> area). All others have been pretty unremarkable.
>
>
>A pretty high percentage of ALL small businesses fail, and it's not always
>because of competition. Why should hardware stores be any different?
Sure, but that's another issue. I was happy when HD came to town. It
made the local lumber yards (2) and Ace Hardware look like the pitiful
places they were (yes, a HD was nice in comparison). The three went
out of business shortly. Good riddance. AIUI two Lowes are opening
up in the area now. I much prefer Lowes, but shop at both.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
>> impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
>> Sargeant spit blood?
>>
>> --
> Got to hand it to him though, the kid was tough. It took about three weeks
> for the drill sargents (four of them ganged up on him) to entirely kick
> the "bad ass" attitude out of him. By that time though, they had already
> decided he wasn't going to graduate. They made his life hell for the
> entire cycle. Just before graduation, they sent him home. He was a source
> of entertainment though. Everyone kept track of "the adventures of Lewis".
> Most memorable was when we went to the gas chamber. Lewis had been given
> (intentionally) a defective mask. Upon entering the chamber, he started to
> gag, threw off his mask and ran for the door. The drill sargent kicked his
> mask into the far corner as another one, just outside the door, grabbed
> him and through him back in. They made him crawl around in there until he
> found his mask. When he did, he picked it up and again ran out the door.
> Again he was thrown back in, made to clear and seal his mask (which did
> not work). He did as he was told and then ran out the door again. Again,
> he was thrown back in. The drill sargent said "I didn't tell you to
> leave". He was made to stand there for a minute when the drill sargent
> told him to take off his mask and get out. Did I mention the 30 inch
> diameter oak just outside the door? Lewis, by this time not being able to
> see, met that tree at full speed.
I know a kid who went through something similar. Apparently, they're allowed
a certain amount of time to phone family. Well, this kid was never
particularly polite to his mother, to put it mildly. This day on the phone,
he was being especially obnoxious with her. That was the first and last
mistake he made in the Marines, because his drill sergeant was standing
silently right behind him as he talked to mom. His mother told me later that
the kid was having "a rough time" in the Marines afterward. The sergeant
made sure of that in every way he could.
On Dec 16, 12:16=A0pm, "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk
> >>>>> bin at
> >>>>> Home Depot.
>
> Any true craftsman examines the use that the fastener or part will be
> subjected to, then adjusts the quality or grade of the part. =A0It is com=
mon
> practice in automotive where in some applications, a harder stronger grad=
e
> of fastener is required.
>
> There is not a thing wrong with the soft steel flimsy stuff they sell at =
HD.
> The fault lies in the fact that you used it incorrectly. =A01/4" lag bolt=
s
> have a very low twist off pressure. =A0But now you know that. =A0How is t=
his
> going to affect your future purchases? =A0How is this going to affect whe=
ther
> or not you drill a pilot hole?
>
> This is YOUR fault, and no one else's. =A0Home Depot sells a lot of crap,=
but
> if you know that going in, you don't put a cheater pipe on it during
> install.
It's very odd that you quote someone, omit the attribution, and leave
out ALL of the pertinent stuff that completely refutes your diatribe
and take a cheap shot at someone's craftsmanship. I'm afraid you've
failed Posting 101 for the semester. Here's the OP's original:
On Dec 16, 3:21 am, "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier thi=
s
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pil=
ot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't givin=
g
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
Isn't that curious? He used a small ratchet, choked up on the handle,
and drilled a pilot hole. What are you suggesting he did wrong -
forget to pray?
R
On Dec 16, 10:29=A0am, "&amp;amp;#39;lektric dan"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Dec 16, 7:57=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
> >.... The category of real hardware stores includes:
> >...
> > - any hardware store with worn wooden floors and a little bell on the f=
ront
> > door that tinkles when you walk in, where any employees under the age o=
f
> > forty are the owner's grandchildren; sadly, these places are getting ha=
rder
> > and harder to find.
>
> I grew up in a small town in Southern Oklahoma. =A0We had a "real"
> hardware store on Main Street. =A0Locally owned, at least 3
> generations. =A0Everybody had gone to school with at least one of the
> Stolfa kids. =A0Didn't look like much from the front. =A0When you walked
> in the front door, it had one of those little "tinkle" bells on a
> spring at the top. =A0Hardwood floors about 100 years old that creaked
> as you walked across them. =A0You could get help, advise (and you could
> rely on it being accurate), or just opinions about everything from the
> wether to the next local or college football game. =A0The smell varied
> as you walked to different parts of the store; a chemical-fertilizer
> smell was predominant, with paint and varnish in one corner, a greasy-
> oily-gasoline smell over by the lawnmowers and garden machinery. =A0They
> had some of everything, nuts and bolts to gaskets for pressure
> cookers, I even bought asbestos sheets to fix a space heater. =A0I asked
> one of the guys once if they had a molasses gate, and without a blink,
> he asked "what size do you need?".
>
> Then WalMart came to town. =A0The manager complained that the high
> quality cutlery he carried cost more from his distributor than the
> most expensive stuff WalMart carried at retail. =A0They just couldn't
> compete, and when WallyWorld put in a Super Store, it was the final
> nail in the coffin. =A0I really hated to see them go. =A0This was repeate=
d
> in several other locally owned businesses, from stationary stores, to
> small sporting goods, to auto parts. =A0We had a family-owned auto
> repair shop. =A0We finally closed after almost 20 years. =A0The folks tha=
t
> bought us out made it for another 3 years.
So who is to "blame"? Walmart or the consumers who demanded a cheaper
knife?
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
>>you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
>>guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
>
> Ace. Tru-Value. Do-it-Best. Any hardware store with old wooden floors. The
> quality of the fasteners is markedly higher at any of those places, and
> the
> selection usually much wider, than at any of the big-box stores.
Well I will have to disagree but not totally. There is an old hardware
store in Nacogdoches TX, oldest town in Texas. The hardware store has
wooden floors that roll and dip and squeek. They have old oak display
counters and cabinets and if they dont have it, it probably can't be had, so
to speak. They have the cheap stuff too.
Locally we have a hardware store that has been in business for almost 60
years and still family owned and run. It is centrally located between 2
HD's and a Lowe's. They beat their competition's price on same thing items
and they some where along the way became either an ACE or Tru-Value. They
have great stuff, great service, and stuff they steer "me" away from the
crap that they also have.
" Real" hardware stores have crap too.
Perhaps a "real" hardware store has employees that know their product.
On 2009-12-16, The Ranger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> My two-time experiences with McFeeleys...
Hey Range! I didn't know you could drive a nail. ;)
nb
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:43:56 -0600, Red Green <[email protected]>
wrote:
>krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:49 -0600, Red Green <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>news:08602446-e671-4c94-bb0f-96d1a151a5ea@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Dec 16, 10:54 am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> .> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
>>>>> > --
>>>>>
>>>>> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite
>>>>> good as f
>>>> or
>>>>> layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
>>>>> smaller an
>>>> d
>>>>> smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza,
>>>>> and have
>>>> to
>>>>> be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
>>>>> out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
>>>>> smaller too
>>>> .
>>>>> In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
>>>>> when
>>>> it
>>>>> will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
>>>>> skateboard.
>>>>
>>>> That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
>>>> buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
>>>> WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but
>>>> that end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course.
>>>> Stores in NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> HD shared the same lot
>>>
>>>Sounds like Williston VT.
>>
>> Is there another HD in VT? Didn't the Rutland HD close?
>
>Would you like me to drive from NC to find out for you or do you want
>Keithw to go from AL to check?
KeithW and krw are the same person. Well, as much as anyone at home
and work can be the same. ;-)
>Store locator tab, nahhhhhh...
Too easy.
Smitty Two wrote:
> But a 1/8"
> pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter
> of the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together,
> with the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw
> should be unobscured by the drill.
No, an 1/8" is actually too small for a 1/4" (size 14) screw:
http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/woodscrewpilotholes.htm
Jon
Jon Danniken wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
If I need any quantity of hardware I drive right past Lowes and go 5
miles further to the good old hardware store. I'm not so sure the low
grade stuff is any better, but it's surely less expensive! And if I buy
the grade 5 or 8 stuff, I know it's also a lot less expensive. Just
last week I was buying some 1/2" x 4" bolts and mentioned to the cashier
(who is also one of the brothers that own the store) how I passed Lowes
to get there. They were $1.18 and he knocked off the 18 cents to make
them $1 each. Later stopped at Lowes for something else and checked
their bolt prices. The same 1/2" x 4" bolt at Lowes, $2.34.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=135753-37672-880060&lpage=none
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
> like this.
I have some (probably smaller) syringes I use for oiling tight spots.
Somehow almost every time my mother is visiting she somehow spots the
box of new ones and in a quivering voice asks me what they are for. I
tell her again and show her the ones that have oil in them already. I
think the one time I had actually just given blood so I even had a mark
on my arm! Yes, a mother will never stop worrying about her children.
Existential Angst wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Proly not.
>>>> --
>>>> EA
>>>
>>>
>>> WTF is a "proly"?
>>
>> Proly = Probably, What is WTF? ;~)
>
> I thought proly was short for proberbly.
LOL, I think you hit the nail on the head!
Chris Friesen wrote:
>
>
> For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
> 0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
> hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity
> greater than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the
> threads don't engage, of course.
Cool, thanks Chris, that'll save me having to look up charts and deciding
which one is the correct value next time!
Jon
Smitty Two wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Smitty Two wrote:
>>> But a 1/8"
>>> pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the
>>> diameter of the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light
>>> together, with the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of
>>> the screw should be unobscured by the drill.
>>
>> No, an 1/8" is actually too small for a 1/4" (size 14) screw:
>>
>> http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/woodscrewpilotholes.htm
>>
>> Jon
>
> I thought I said that. I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet. BTW,
> that table is for tapered wood screws. I didn't think lag screws were
> tapered.
Bah, it was I who needed more coffee. What I meant to say was that 1/8" is
actually too *large* for a 1/4" (size 14) screw.
Of course, that is for a wood screw, which I do realize now uses a slightly
smaller hole than does a lag screw.
Jon
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
> Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
> alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
> torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar, and
> not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
> decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.
'Ya know, I sheared off a 1/4" machine bolt I bought from HD a half a dozen
years ago. Same deal, was tightening it up, just past snug, when it turned
to butter.
I figured it was a fluke, but maybe this last go round will be enough to
convince me to steer clear of the bright shiny objects in the grabit bins.
Jon
Steve B wrote:
>> Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot
>> hole, then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag
>> bolts.
>
> A quality lag bolt would have split the wood.
A quality lag bolt was purchased (stainless steel, US made) from a fastener
store. The lag bolt was tightened up securely, but the wood is not split
Got any other "theories" Steve?
Jon
J. Clarke wrote:
>
> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
> is:
>
> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
> screws of larger diameters."
Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
appreciated!
The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.
Jon
Tom Watson wrote:
> "Jon Danniken" wrote:
>
>> The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of
>> 0.182". Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five
>> percent of this value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8"
>> right in the middle.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
>
> What do you mean by "shank diameter"?
>
> Machinery's Handbook lists the "body" or "shoulder" diameter of a 1/4"
> lag bolt as between .237" and .260". This is the area that is not
> threaded.
>
> The "root diameter" is listed as .173". This is the diameter of the
> remaining cylinder after the threads are formed.
>
> (American National Standard Square Lag Screws - ANSI/ASME
> B18.2.1-1996)
Thanks Tom, I should have said the root diameter.
Jon
Leon wrote:
> "Jon Danniken" wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
>>> is:
>>>
>>> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
>>> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
>>> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
>>> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
>>> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
>>> screws of larger diameters."
>>
>> Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
>> appreciated!
>>
>> The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of
>> 0.182". Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five
>> percent of this value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8"
>> right in the middle. Jon
>
>
> BUT Jon,,,,,, While it is a kewl reference that agrees with what you
> were using as a pilot hole, how did that work out for you?
It works out great, Leon, once I purchased lag bolts that weren't from the
bulk bin at Home Depot. The bolts are currently holding up a home-made
welded bracket, which in turn is holding up my bathroom sink.
The sink itself weighs maybe 20 or 30 pounds, so I tested the bracket by
holding myself up with it, and it didn't budge.
Jon
jaymelone the worthless SPAMMER wrote:
> jaymelone had written this in response to
> [ snip sucko spammers ]
>>
> Guys, just like you wouldn't buy a water heater from Home Depot, I
> wouldn't recommend their hardware, either. The quality is
> sub-standard and pricing is through the roof.
>
> I'm opening a site online where you'll be able to find any fastener
> in any material for any job. We'll also have some pretty cool
> features to help you plan your projects and buy the right stuff, and
> the right amount, too! We'll even help you contractors out there
> engage with and grow your customer base. We have a lot in the works.
>
> I'll write up a new post once the site is up and give you all the
> address. I'd even appreciate a few of you helping me test the site
> out. I'll definitely make it worth your while.
>
You're not only a SPAMMING shill for the SUCKO company, you're now going to
further SPAM this group with your own SPAM?
Do us all a favor and go play in the freeway.
Jon
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
I first twisted off lag screws starting in 1979. Lag screws in general are
not strong unless you get stainless steel.
IIRC I try to give to lag screws a polit hole size the size of the body or a
bit larger.
Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
Additionally you do not want to bottom out a lag screw, the point on the end
helps guide not pull the screw into the wood.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:49 -0600, Red Green <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:08602446-e671-4c94-bb0f-96d1a151a5ea@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Dec 16, 10:54 am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> .> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
>>> > --
>>>
>>> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good
>>> as f
>> or
>>> layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
>>> smaller an
>> d
>>> smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and
>>> have
>> to
>>> be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
>>> out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
>>> smaller too
>> .
>>> In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
>>> when
>> it
>>> will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
>>> skateboard.
>>
>> That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
>> buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
>> WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
>> end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
>> NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
>>
>>
>
>> HD shared the same lot
>
>Sounds like Williston VT.
Is there another HD in VT? Didn't the Rutland HD close?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:65bc3e42-ea1a-40af-a5d8-c80c070d4936@r14g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
Snip
> Then WalMart came to town. The manager complained that the high
> quality cutlery he carried cost more from his distributor than the
> most expensive stuff WalMart carried at retail. They just couldn't
> compete, and when WallyWorld put in a Super Store, it was the final
> nail in the coffin. I really hated to see them go. This was repeated
> in several other locally owned businesses, from stationary stores, to
> small sporting goods, to auto parts. We had a family-owned auto
> repair shop. We finally closed after almost 20 years. The folks that
> bought us out made it for another 3 years.
So who is to "blame"? Walmart or the consumers who demanded a cheaper
knife?
Who is to blame, the store that lost it's business is to blame. Blaming
others has never been a good excuse for why a business fails. Again I
mention, near me an old hardware store with lots of big competition, they
beat the competition prices and service, and they are constantly expanding.
Competing does not just mean cheaper. Service goes a long way and if the
store does not provide a compeditive alternative attraction they will go
under.
I have tried it. It's a non-event.
How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in order to avoid
having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because of the way a
parking lot was designed?
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
> Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
> store is. Might be between the Henrietta Roads. It's a
> miserable PIA to get in and out of the lot. The one on West
> Ridge is MUCH easier to get in and out.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there.
>> The
>> parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all
>> the
>> way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers.
>> The
>> Victor NY store isn't so bad.
>
>
> I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.
>
>
>
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:21:45 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>hole.
Pilot hole should be 3/16"
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Dec 16, 3:21=A0am, "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier thi=
s
> evening. =A0It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" p=
ilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. =A0I wasn't giv=
ing
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
I had that happen to me helping my friend build a deck using bolts
from the big box store. We snapped two of them off. Thats when I
turned my friend on to Howes Hardware. Best place I know of for
industrial quality fastenerd..
Jimmie
"StephenM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:TF6Wm.5043$Z%[email protected]...
> >
>> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I
>> agree for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought
>> some pretty cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had
>> several break from 100 pack box.
>
> I had the same experience. I have never been disappointed by their
> regular screws, but I did get a crappy box of dowel screws from them once.
> I called them on it and they offered me the opportunity to return them at
> my expense. ( I was underwhelmed).
>
> Buyer beware. Just because McFeeleys stocks it, it does not make it
> quality.
Precicely, you can generally rest assured that if their fasteners claim to
be hardened or graded they will be good, if not, it will be iffy.
In article <[email protected]>,
Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
><[email protected]> said:
>
>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>
>And Ace and TruValue don't count.
That depends on the store. I've got a couple of _very_good_ hardware
stores that happen to be part of the ACE co-op nearby. And a first
class one that joined up with TruValue. They've got people that -know-
what they're talking about, _and_ carry a lot of stuff that is not
the Ace/TruValue house label.
In article <[email protected]>,
JoeSpareBedroom <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>> WTF is a "proly"?
>>
>> New to Usenet, huh?
>
>
>No. Just being a pain in the neck. :-)
>
>
We'll be sure to let you know _if_ you succeed. ;)
In article <[email protected]>,
Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>>> Home Depot.
>
>And their "bin" machine screws are Grade 2 not Grade 5... who uses
>Grade 2 for anything?
Quite obviously, HD customers that don't know better. <wry grin>
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Proly not.
>> --
>> EA
>
>
>
> WTF is a "proly"?
Proly = Probably, What is WTF? ;~)
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "StephenM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>> Buyer beware. Just because McFeeleys stocks it, it does not make it
>>> quality.
>>
>>
>> Precicely, you can generally rest assured that if their fasteners claim
>> to be hardened or graded they will be good, if not, it will be iffy.
>
> I don't recall who it was but McFeely's was bought by somebody and is now
> run as a subsidiary...I think the expanded product line outside the
> original focus on square-head and related wood screw products and the
> range of grades stems from that change; it was after that the catalogs
> started to grow in size.
Grainger but McFeeleys has had an expanded product line for quite a some
time, long before the buy out.
I miss the TIN Barn that moved out.
It had a fantastic nut and bolt selection. a set of trays
that was 5' x 80'. You want what? - down there after stainless and before xxxx.
Martin
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
>>>
>>> -- Andy Barss
>> Ace has consistently had the highest prices for any item you can mention,
>> unless it's on the clearance rack, and then, it's just under what the
>> other stores sell it for every day. Surely you jest.
>>
> Those Ace Hardware stores are independently owned and operated. The prices,
> selection and service varies widely from location to location.
>
> I have two close to me. The one that has been there forever has an
> extensive selection of fasteners, cheaper than big box stores and much
> better quality. The one that opened recently has less selection, surly help
> and more expensive prices.
>
> Guess which one I go to.
>
> A case in point. I needed some deck screws recently to do a fence repair.
> The BORG only had the deck screws in those expensive little boxes. And they
> did not have the sizes I needed either. And they were quite expensive as
> well. I went to the Ace Hardware, got three different sizes of deck screws
> from the bulk bins and paid for a pound of fasteners.
>
> And their deck screws are tough little bastards too. I have used them for
> several repairs. I probably saved at least $20 over Home Depot prices on
> this job alone. And as been pointed out elsewhere recently, there is no
> telling what kind of quality you get when paying the big bucks at the BORG.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
FWIW, my neighbor asked me and another neighbor to hang her new
LCD TV set, using an arm bracket. Without going into detail, we
needed (4) 1/4" X 6" lags to get the job done really solid. I
sized the pilot hole myself, using the MK22 eyeball device in my
head, and by the way, the hole was drilled with a 5" long bit.
2 of the blasted things torqued off, meaning that we had to adjust
the height of the bracket to remount it. They are a POS and it'll
be a cold day in Hades before I use anything like that in a
project.
--
Nonny
ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.
"Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>>>>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>>>>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>>>>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>>>>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>>>>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>>>>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These diseases spread much too easily.
>>>
>>> Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
>>
>>
>> I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
>> characters in cartoon strips.
>
> Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm valley-speak
> that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That, and effing
> rap-speak... yo.
Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york street
punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that language was
important.
"Red Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message >>
>> Most of the S/S comes in from India these days.
>
> Bastards!
>
Lakshi Mittal controls 10% of the steel made in the world.
http://www.arcelormittal.com/
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
> Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
> alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
> torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar, and
> not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
> decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.
Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.
On 12/16/2009 07:53 AM, Leon wrote:
> Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
> requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
That seems odd.
For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity greater
than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the threads
don't engage, of course.
The above is from:
http://www.awc.org/pdf/NDSCommentaryCompressed/Part11WoodScrewspp133to139.pdf
Chris
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
> impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
> Sargeant spit blood?
>
> --
Got to hand it to him though, the kid was tough. It took about three weeks
for the drill sargents (four of them ganged up on him) to entirely kick the
"bad ass" attitude out of him. By that time though, they had already decided
he wasn't going to graduate. They made his life hell for the entire cycle.
Just before graduation, they sent him home. He was a source of entertainment
though. Everyone kept track of "the adventures of Lewis". Most memorable was
when we went to the gas chamber. Lewis had been given (intentionally) a
defective mask. Upon entering the chamber, he started to gag, threw off his
mask and ran for the door. The drill sargent kicked his mask into the far
corner as another one, just outside the door, grabbed him and through him
back in. They made him crawl around in there until he found his mask. When
he did, he picked it up and again ran out the door. Again he was thrown back
in, made to clear and seal his mask (which did not work). He did as he was
told and then ran out the door again. Again, he was thrown back in. The
drill sargent said "I didn't tell you to leave". He was made to stand there
for a minute when the drill sargent told him to take off his mask and get
out. Did I mention the 30 inch diameter oak just outside the door? Lewis, by
this time not being able to see, met that tree at full speed.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:
>
> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40% to 70%
> of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60% to 75%; and
> for dense hardwoods, such
> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to lag
> screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag screws of
> larger diameters."
>
I wonder if that material was written in modern years or 30 plus. I see lag
screw failures galore.
"aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
> if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same repair
> job twice, I guess.
> --
> aem sends...
Yeah, grade 8 in a lag screw is probabably not going to exist. You will not
see a farmer using a lag screw to repair a tractor, I hope. LOL
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Are you saying that the properties of wood have changed so radically
>>> in the
>>> last 30 years that lag screws hold differently in them now?
>>
>> Well yes actually. Wood with wider growth rings as oppose to
>> narrower more compact gowth rings, which were more available many
>> years back, may yield different results today.
>
> Won't that be reflected in the density though?
Oh no.... not at all.
Jon Danniken wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
>
>
Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same
repair job twice, I guess.
--
aem sends...
>
> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I
> agree for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought some
> pretty cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had several
> break from 100 pack box.
I had the same experience. I have never been disappointed by their regular
screws, but I did get a crappy box of dowel screws from them once. I called
them on it and they offered me the opportunity to return them at my expense.
( I was underwhelmed).
Buyer beware. Just because McFeeleys stocks it, it does not make it quality.
SMS <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[snip]
> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
ACE (San Jose off Alma), TruValue (Cupertino), Southern Lumber (San Jose off
Almaden), or the contractor's lumber yard (Pine Cone?) in Sunnyvale off
Maude will have the grades and knowledgeable employees necessary for
one-time purchasing of quality products...
The Ranger
"Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>> at Home Depot.
>>>
>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>
>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>
>>
>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>
> Proly not.
> --
> EA
WTF is a "proly"?
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
> like this.
I find it less trouble to just use the correct sized pilot hole.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk
>>>>> bin at Home Depot.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts
>>>> from Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that
>>>> are long enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy
>>>> lag bolts.
>>>>
>>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>>
>>>
>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>
>> Proly not.
>> --
>> EA
>
>
>
> WTF is a "proly"?
>
>
What Baba Wawa calls her parrot I guess.
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in news:ZMidnVQ6K-
[email protected]:
> Leon wrote:
>
> What is WTF? ;~)
>
> Among other things, it's a blanket:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h05ZQ7WHw8Y
>
Now they have some thing where the the commercial mocks the WTF? blanket
about how the feet are not covered. This "better" one is closed at the
bottom. So basically this mutated WTF blanket is a kids indoor sleeping bag
with arms.
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:08602446-e671-4c94-bb0f-96d1a151a5ea@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 16, 10:54 am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>> .> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
>> > --
>>
>> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good
>> as f
> or
>> layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
>> smaller an
> d
>> smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and
>> have
> to
>> be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
>> out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
>> smaller too
> .
>> In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
>> when
> it
>> will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
>> skateboard.
>
> That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
> buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
> WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
> end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
> NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
>
>
> HD shared the same lot
Sounds like Williston VT.
krw <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:49 -0600, Red Green <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:08602446-e671-4c94-bb0f-96d1a151a5ea@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Dec 16, 10:54 am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> .> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
>>>> > --
>>>>
>>>> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite
>>>> good as f
>>> or
>>>> layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
>>>> smaller an
>>> d
>>>> smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza,
>>>> and have
>>> to
>>>> be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
>>>> out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
>>>> smaller too
>>> .
>>>> In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
>>>> when
>>> it
>>>> will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
>>>> skateboard.
>>>
>>> That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
>>> buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
>>> WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but
>>> that end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course.
>>> Stores in NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> HD shared the same lot
>>
>>Sounds like Williston VT.
>
> Is there another HD in VT? Didn't the Rutland HD close?
Would you like me to drive from NC to find out for you or do you want
Keithw to go from AL to check?
Store locator tab, nahhhhhh...
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:0009967d$0$2153
[email protected]:
>
> "Jon Danniken" wrote:
>
>> A quality lag bolt was purchased (stainless steel, US made) from a
>> fastener store.
>
> The US has been out of the general fastener business for decades.
>
> Had a couple of customers who were fastener manufacturers go belly up
> while I was still back in Cleveland, a town that was, at one time, a
> major fastener manufacturing center.
>
> Most of the S/S comes in from India these days.
Bastards!
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "jaymelone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> jaymelone had written this in response to
>> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Home-Depot-1-4-Lag-Screw-4
>> 12326-.htm
>> :
>> Guys, just like you wouldn't buy a water heater from Home Depot, I
>> wouldn't recommend their hardware, either. The quality is
>> sub-standard and pricing is through the roof.
>>
>> I'm opening a site online where you'll be able to find any fastener
>> in any material for any job. We'll also have some pretty cool
>> features to help you plan your projects and buy the right stuff, and
>> the right amount, too! We'll even help you contractors out there
>> engage with and grow your customer base. We have a lot in the works.
>>
> I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
> allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
> double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish of
> 50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
> some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
>
> basilisk
>
>
>
You ain't gonna believe this but Harbor Freight has just such a thing.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2l9o3dh.jpg
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, aemeijers
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
>>if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same
>>repair job twice, I guess.
>
> Of course not. It's like any other business: having machinery down costs
> money. At harvest time, a down machine can cost _a lot_ of money.
And there are liability issue concernes. A good mechanic will use grade 8
or better so that when he is preplacing a bolt it is at least as strong as
the original. I was stocking grade 8, 30 years ago for automotive repairs
at an Olds dealership.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Are you saying that the properties of wood have changed so radically in
> the
> last 30 years that lag screws hold differently in them now?
Well yes actually. Wood with wider growth rings as oppose to narrower more
compact gowth rings, which were more available many years back, may yield
different results today.
Because the
> recommendations are not about allowing you to use crap screws without
> breaking them while driving, they are about sticking wood together so it
> stays stuck.
>
"Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
> --
That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good as for
layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting smaller and
smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and have to
be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get out,
it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting smaller too.
In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day when it
will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized skateboard.
Your usual vehicle is a long van?
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My long wheelbase panel van, it's an event. I live closer to
> the Victor store, anyhow. It's only a couple miles to
> Lowe's.
>
> To answer your question, though. Five or so miles. I try to
> plan trips ahead of time, and thier miserable parking lot is
> a real nonplusser. Same with Goodwill ABVI in Victor. Too
> many tight turns.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> I have tried it. It's a non-event.
>
> How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in
> order to avoid
> having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because
> of the way a
> parking lot was designed?
>
>
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
>> Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
>
>
>
jaymelone had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Home-Depot-1-4-Lag-Screw-412326-.htm
:
Guys, just like you wouldn't buy a water heater from Home Depot, I
wouldn't recommend their hardware, either. The quality is sub-standard and
pricing is through the roof.
I'm opening a site online where you'll be able to find any fastener in any
material for any job. We'll also have some pretty cool features to help
you plan your projects and buy the right stuff, and the right amount, too!
We'll even help you contractors out there engage with and grow your
customer base. We have a lot in the works.
I'll write up a new post once the site is up and give you all the address.
I'd even appreciate a few of you helping me test the site out. I'll
definitely make it worth your while.
In the meantime, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
Jay
--
FastenSoft, LLC
Jon Danniken wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot
> earlier this
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a
> 1/8" pilot
> hole.
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a
> 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't
> giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall
> screws.
> Here is the result:
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the
> piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get
> some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
> at
> Home Depot.
> Jon
-------------------------------------
"The Ranger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
.
>
> My two-time experiences with McFeeleys has been very positive. Prices,
> while generally higher, are not painful and the products that I've
> purchased were exactly what I needed. Unlike the machine screws that I'd
> purchased prior from OSH (a formerly GREAT hardware store but ruined by
> Sears -- a curse from the gahds on that corporate bastion of greed and
> averice) which sheered with the slightest pressure making a simple job
> not, I'll order from McFeeleys when I'm able to plan a job out.
>
> The Ranger
The screws I ordered from McFeeleys and had problems with were 1/8" machine
screws and that was 10+ years ago and they were not graded. When in doubt
give them a call, they will not steer you wrong. I did not need a quality
fastener at the time but was surprised that they were no better than the
typical no name Borg screws.
I do like McFeeleys, I have probably 2-3 thousand of their wood screws on
hand at any particular time.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> .
>> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
>> --
> That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good as
> for layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting smaller
> and smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and
> have to be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you
> get out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
> smaller too. In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see
> the day when it will be impractical to park anything larger than a
> motorized skateboard.
And why not angle parking, straight in parking does not save any more space
as you need wider lanes.
On Dec 16, 7:50=A0am, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jon Danniken wrote:
> > Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin =
at
> > Home Depot.
>
> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>
> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
McFeeley's is good.
On 2009-12-17, Steve B <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot hole,
>> then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag bolts.
>
> A quality lag bolt would have split the wood.
Heh....
Now that's a great debate. Wood vs metal. On its surface it seems
simple, but....
Gentlemen, take your mark! ;)
nb
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Most localities in the US have within reasonable driving distance a
> Fastenal. In any metropolitan area there should be a section in the
> Yellow
> Pages for "fasteners" or "screws" or "bolts". Near the water in any city
> with a harbor there will be marine hardware places that have a good stock
> of
> corrosion resistant fasteners--alas the packages come with a picture of a
> boat on them so they'll cost twice as much as the same fastener without
> the
> picture of a boat. Near any major airport there will be an aircraft
> hardware place--they'll have fasteners made to military specification that
> are very high quality, but they won't be cheap.
>
>
I have a Fastenal very close to me. Is that a good place to buy screws,
walk in? I was under the impression that they were more like a jobber
service.
Speaking of which and talking about out side exposure, I have McFeeley non
coated screws out in my front yard that I used along rail road ties to
string Christmas light about 18 years ago. All are facing head up so water
collects in the square drives. All are still in good condition.
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jon Danniken wrote:
>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>
> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from Home
> Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long enough
> and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>
> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
Got an actual hardware store in your town?
On 2009-12-16, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
>> Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
>> alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
>> torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar, and
>> not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
>> decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.
>
>
> Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.
Not necessarily. I had a similar problem, likewise, an alternator on
a van engine. In my case, the entire top of the alternator hung off
the extended bolt shaft. I changed to a grade 8 bolt and it snapped
right off from vibration within a couple days, the grade 8 being too
brittle. Went back to a grade 5.
nb
"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>> <[email protected]> said:
>>>
>>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>>
>>> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Why not?
>
> A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
> a real hardware store is purely unintentional.
That really depends on how they're run by the individual owners. The one I
use is pretty remarkable.
On Dec 16, 9:23=A0am, Smitty Two <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> =A0"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier t=
his
> > evening. =A0It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8"=
pilot
> > hole.
>
> > After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/=
8"
> > ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. =A0I wasn't g=
iving
> > it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> > butter.
>
> > It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screw=
s.
>
> > Here is the result:
>
> >http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> > On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piec=
e
> > that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> > I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get so=
me
> > halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> > results.
>
> > Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin =
at
> > Home Depot.
>
> > Jon
>
> Hardware comes in grades. Next time get grade 5 or better. But a 1/8"
> pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter of
> the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together, with
> the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw should be
> unobscured by the drill.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW: Using a drill gauge for sizing!
We use a card with various holes in it, originally designed we think
for sizing knitting needles?
But the holes are marked in metric on one side and on the other in
64ths, 32nds etc.
Very useful.
>>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk
>>>>> bin at
>>>>> Home Depot.
Any true craftsman examines the use that the fastener or part will be
subjected to, then adjusts the quality or grade of the part. It is common
practice in automotive where in some applications, a harder stronger grade
of fastener is required.
There is not a thing wrong with the soft steel flimsy stuff they sell at HD.
The fault lies in the fact that you used it incorrectly. 1/4" lag bolts
have a very low twist off pressure. But now you know that. How is this
going to affect your future purchases? How is this going to affect whether
or not you drill a pilot hole?
This is YOUR fault, and no one else's. Home Depot sells a lot of crap, but
if you know that going in, you don't put a cheater pipe on it during
install.
Steve
On Dec 16, 1:21=A0am, "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier thi=
s
> evening. =A0It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" p=
ilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. =A0I wasn't giv=
ing
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
I'm pretty sure that all of the standard fasteners at HD are made of
quite soft metal. I have run into the same problem using lag screws
on deck framing. If they get a little warm from friction, the heads
twist right off. HD have some hardened bolts, but they are as
expensive as if you had bought them at Fastenal. I agree that HD is
not the place to buy fasteners - aside from the fact that HD charges
quite a lot for their fasteners.
On 2009-12-16, Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
All is relative. Grade bolt, pilot hole, lengh of wrench handle,
strength of operator, number of beers, etc. Frankly, I was surprised
to hear of such a thing as a 1/4" lag bolt.
http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/lag-bolt-pilot-hole.htm
http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalinformation/bolt-torque-chart.html
http://www.stainless-fasteners.com/stainless-bolts/SSLag_bolts14.htm
nb
"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>> WTF is a "proly"?
>
> New to Usenet, huh?
No. Just being a pain in the neck. :-)
On Dec 16, 9:25=A0am, The Daring Dufas <[email protected]>
wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Dec 16, 7:50 am, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Jon Danniken wrote:
> >>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bi=
n at
> >>> Home Depot.
> >> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
> >> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
> >> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>
> >> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>
> > McFeeley's is good.
>
> Sounds like a store that sell adult........never mind.
Screws?
Leon <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>> at Home Depot.
>>>
>>>Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>>Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>>enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>
>>>Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>
>> Any real hardware store.
>
> I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
> you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
> guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
>
> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I
> agree for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought some
> pretty cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had several
> break from 100 pack box.
>
> I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source for
> screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are going
> to get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged plastic bags
> of screws from those type stores I have never had a problem with larger
> bolts and lag screws providing they had proper sized pilot screws.
My two-time experiences with McFeeleys has been very positive. Prices, while
generally higher, are not painful and the products that I've purchased were
exactly what I needed. Unlike the machine screws that I'd purchased prior
from OSH (a formerly GREAT hardware store but ruined by Sears -- a curse
from the gahds on that corporate bastion of greed and averice) which sheered
with the slightest pressure making a simple job not, I'll order from
McFeeleys when I'm able to plan a job out.
The Ranger
In article <[email protected]>,
Red Green <[email protected]> wrote:
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:08602446-e671-4c94-bb0f-96d1a151a5ea@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
> > That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
> > buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
> > WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
> > end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
> > NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.
> >
> > HD shared the same lot
>
> Sounds like Williston VT.
Undoubtedly; I think that's the only place in VT where WallyWorld and HD
share a parking lot. (I think the only other city with both stores is
Rutland.) And yes, it's a horrid parking lot layout.
For those who are morbidly curious, the two stores are at opposite ends
of this lot, which has unbroken lanes running from store to store with
perpendicular parking. The two entrances/exits to the lot are at the
corners where the stores and the parking lot meet, so that the only way
to enter or exit the lot (by vehicle) is to drive along the fire lanes
where other shoppers are trying to navigate to or from their cars. Why
on earth they didn't have a single car entrance/exit lane across the
middle away from the pedestrians is a great mystery to me.
Or, if you're a visual sort of person, see the madness from above:
<http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Wal-mart,&sl
l=44.441969,-73.120193&sspn=0.001819,0.003208&ie=UTF8&radius=0.08&rq=1&ev
=zi&hq=Wal-mart,&hnear=&ll=44.441716,-73.12025&spn=0.001819,0.003208&t=h&
z=19>
--
Andrew Erickson
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot
Andrew wrote:
> On Dec 16, 1:21 am, "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>> hole.
>>
>> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
>> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
>> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
>> butter.
>>
>> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>>
>> Here is the result:
>>
>> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>>
>> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
>> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>>
>> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
>> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
>> results.
>>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>>
>> Jon
>
> I'm pretty sure that all of the standard fasteners at HD are made of
> quite soft metal. I have run into the same problem using lag screws
> on deck framing. If they get a little warm from friction, the heads
> twist right off. HD have some hardened bolts, but they are as
> expensive as if you had bought them at Fastenal. I agree that HD is
> not the place to buy fasteners - aside from the fact that HD charges
> quite a lot for their fasteners.
And their "bin" machine screws are Grade 2 not Grade 5... who uses
Grade 2 for anything?
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
On 12/16/2009 03:21, Jon Danniken wrote:
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
>
>
Without having them tested how would you know? You are pretty much
guaranteed that the fasteners you can buy there are the lowest quality
they you can possibly buy.
You can get much better quality (and actually pay less) at industrial
supply houses.
In article <[email protected]>, "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>hole.
[... and, unsurprisingly, the head twisted off]
>Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>Home Depot.
This isn't exactly news to anyone who's been involved in home repair for any
length of time, you know.
You can get fasteners of significantly better quality, at a lower price, from
any real hardware store. The category of real hardware stores includes:
- Ace
- Tru-Value
- Do-it-Best
- any hardware store with worn wooden floors and a little bell on the front
door that tinkles when you walk in, where any employees under the age of
forty are the owner's grandchildren; sadly, these places are getting harder
and harder to find.
This category does *not* include
- Home Depot
- Lowe's
- Menards
- Hechinger's
and similar places.
In article <[email protected]>, aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote:
>Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including grade 8
>if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do the same
>repair job twice, I guess.
Of course not. It's like any other business: having machinery down costs
money. At harvest time, a down machine can cost _a lot_ of money.
In article <[email protected]>, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
>Jon Danniken wrote:
>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>
>Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>
>Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
Any real hardware store.
SMS wrote:
> Jon Danniken wrote:
>
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>
> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>
> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
I really doubt that you can these days since they're all made in CHINA. I
called one of the suppliers for a specialty screw and asked them about
where their products are made, you can guess what his reply was. He also
told me that there is not any fasteners made in the US anymore. Unless it's
made for the Military.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>> Home Depot.
>>
>> Jon
>
> Even better, don't buy fasteners at Home Depot. If you want quality, go
> to an industrial supply house or order from McFeelys.com
I called McFeelys and all Fasteners they sell are made in CHINA
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
I have had a lot of problem with Hillman screws and fasteners breaking
easily. HD has a lot of Hillman product on the shelf.
I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar, and
not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home
Depot earlier this
evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling
with a 1/8" pilot
hole.
After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more,
holding a 3/8"
ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I
wasn't giving
it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it
turned to
butter.
It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten
drywall screws.
Here is the result:
http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole
in the piece
that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I
know to get some
halfway decent ones now before something failed with more
catastrophic
results.
Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from
the bulk bin at
Home Depot.
Jon
A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
like this.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I first twisted off lag screws starting in 1979. Lag screws
in general are
not strong unless you get stainless steel.
IIRC I try to give to lag screws a polit hole size the size
of the body or a
bit larger.
Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246"
thread diameter
requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
Additionally you do not want to bottom out a lag screw, the
point on the end
helps guide not pull the screw into the wood.
So true. I've got a couple of such stores near me. But they
are hard to find, and often go out of business for lack of
customer support.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
This isn't exactly news to anyone who's been involved in
home repair for any
length of time, you know.
You can get fasteners of significantly better quality, at a
lower price, from
any real hardware store. The category of real hardware
stores includes:
- Ace
- Tru-Value
- Do-it-Best
- any hardware store with worn wooden floors and a little
bell on the front
door that tinkles when you walk in, where any employees
under the age of
forty are the owner's grandchildren; sadly, these places are
getting harder
and harder to find.
This category does *not* include
- Home Depot
- Lowe's
- Menards
- Hechinger's
and similar places.
Ah dunno. Prolly one uh dem nawthun boy sayins.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>
> Proly not.
> --
> EA
WTF is a "proly"?
WTF, World Trade Foundation. Replaced WTC in 1991.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> WTF is a "proly"?
Proly = Probably, What is WTF? ;~)
[email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 16, 7:50 am, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
>>> Home Depot.
>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>
>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>
> McFeeley's is good.
Sounds like a store that sell adult........never mind.
TDD
On 12/16/2009 09:09, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> "Existential Angst"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "JoeSpareBedroom"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "SMS"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>>> at Home Depot.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>>
>>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>>
>>>
>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>
>> Proly not.
>> --
>> EA
>
>
>
> WTF is a "proly"?
>
>
Someone who forgot they weren't "talking" to their teenage friends with
some form of instant messaging..
Leon wrote:
> "StephenM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
...
>> Buyer beware. Just because McFeeleys stocks it, it does not make it
>> quality.
>
>
> Precicely, you can generally rest assured that if their fasteners claim to
> be hardened or graded they will be good, if not, it will be iffy.
I don't recall who it was but McFeely's was bought by somebody and is
now run as a subsidiary...I think the expanded product line outside the
original focus on square-head and related wood screw products and the
range of grades stems from that change; it was after that the catalogs
started to grow in size.
--
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
> like this.
>
I use saw wax. Stick a drill bit or screw in it and the little
bit of lube will help it do its job. It has many uses.
http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G4413-Lube-Wax-Stick/dp/B0000DD2JY
TDD
In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>> at
>>>> Home Depot.
>>>
>>>Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>>Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>>enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>
>>>Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>
>> Any real hardware store.
>
>
>I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
>you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
>guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
Ace. Tru-Value. Do-it-Best. Any hardware store with old wooden floors. The
quality of the fasteners is markedly higher at any of those places, and the
selection usually much wider, than at any of the big-box stores.
Leon wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk
>>>> bin at
>>>> Home Depot.
>>>
>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts
>>> from Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that
>>> are long enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy
>>> lag bolts.
>>>
>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>
>> Any real hardware store.
>
>
> I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not
> piling on you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and
> does that guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have
> crap?
>
> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I
> agree for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought
> some pretty cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have
> had several break from 100 pack box.
>
> I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source
> for screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are
> going to get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged
> plastic bags of screws from those type stores I have never had a
> problem with larger bolts and lag screws providing they had proper
> sized pilot screws.
"Real hardware store" is too fuzzy a concept to be useful. OLD hardware
store would be a better bet--one that has been around since before HD--at
least that's a well defined term. OTOH, does Rocky's Ace, founded 1926,
really stock better fasteners than HD? They do stock a wider range of
specialty fasteners, that I'll grant them, but are their packaged fasteners
really any better?
Most localities in the US have within reasonable driving distance a
Fastenal. In any metropolitan area there should be a section in the Yellow
Pages for "fasteners" or "screws" or "bolts". Near the water in any city
with a harbor there will be marine hardware places that have a good stock of
corrosion resistant fasteners--alas the packages come with a picture of a
boat on them so they'll cost twice as much as the same fastener without the
picture of a boat. Near any major airport there will be an aircraft
hardware place--they'll have fasteners made to military specification that
are very high quality, but they won't be cheap.
Leon wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, aemeijers
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including
>>> grade 8 if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do
>>> the same repair job twice, I guess.
>>
>> Of course not. It's like any other business: having machinery down
>> costs money. At harvest time, a down machine can cost _a lot_ of
>> money.
>
> And there are liability issue concernes. A good mechanic will use
> grade 8 or better so that when he is preplacing a bolt it is at least
> as strong as the original. I was stocking grade 8, 30 years ago for
> automotive repairs at an Olds dealership.
Be careful using Grade 8. They're strong but they're also brittle. Don't
use them for applications where there are likely to be shock loads.
I like my toys. I use cow teat syringes, given me by a farm
boy I knew when I was in college.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:[email protected]...
>A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in
> moments
> like this.
I find it less trouble to just use the correct sized pilot
hole.
I thing Mr. McFeeley was a character on Mr. Rogers
Neighborhood. I had the same thoughts back then.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Daring Dufas" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
>
> McFeeley's is good.
Sounds like a store that sell adult........never mind.
TDD
J. Clarke wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, aemeijers
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including
>>>> grade 8 if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do
>>>> the same repair job twice, I guess.
>>>
>>> Of course not. It's like any other business: having machinery down
>>> costs money. At harvest time, a down machine can cost _a lot_ of
>>> money.
>>
>> And there are liability issue concernes. A good mechanic will use
>> grade 8 or better so that when he is preplacing a bolt it is at least
>> as strong as the original. I was stocking grade 8, 30 years ago for
>> automotive repairs at an Olds dealership.
>
> Be careful using Grade 8. They're strong but they're also brittle. Don't
> use them for applications where there are likely to be shock loads.
You mean like Cylinder Heads?
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in moments
> like this.
>
Bar soap works well tooooo.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
evodawg wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Leon wrote:
>>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Around here, Tractor Supply has pretty good fasteners, including
>>>>> grade 8 if your function calls for that. Farmers don't like to do
>>>>> the same repair job twice, I guess.
>>>>
>>>> Of course not. It's like any other business: having machinery down
>>>> costs money. At harvest time, a down machine can cost _a lot_ of
>>>> money.
>>>
>>> And there are liability issue concernes. A good mechanic will use
>>> grade 8 or better so that when he is preplacing a bolt it is at
>>> least as strong as the original. I was stocking grade 8, 30 years
>>> ago for automotive repairs at an Olds dealership.
>>
>> Be careful using Grade 8. They're strong but they're also brittle.
>> Don't use them for applications where there are likely to be shock
>> loads.
> You mean like Cylinder Heads?
If your cylinder heads are subject to shock loading then you have bigger
problems than broken head bolts.
I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
"Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
when one of the girls in my class started calling him
"Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
I used to use 8 x 3" strike plate screws, when I installed
more deadbolts. They worked fine. 1/8 inch pilot hole, and
then inject the hole full of petroleum jelly.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> New to Usenet, huh?
No. Just being a pain in the neck. :-)
The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there. The
parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all the
way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers. The
Victor NY store isn't so bad.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
> Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
> --
That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is
quite good as for
layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been
getting smaller and
smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru
Impreza, and have to
be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as
you get out,
it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is
getting smaller too.
In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see
the day when it
will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
skateboard.
I share in the blame. I buy a lot of stuff at Walmart.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:65bc3e42-ea1a-40af-a5d8-c80c070d4936@r14g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
So who is to "blame"? Walmart or the consumers who demanded
a cheaper
knife?
I use vetrinary syringes with needles (bench grinder --
grind the needle flat nose) to dispense aluminum anti
oxidant, for electrical connections. So far, no one has made
an issue of it.
The cow teat syringes are obviously harmless, and they
attract no attention at all.
Ah, well. Some folks worry about things.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> A squirt of vaseline or grease in the hole helps, a lot. I
> have some old plastic syringes I keep filled with generic
> vaseline "petroleum jelly" for threading in lags in
> moments
> like this.
I have some (probably smaller) syringes I use for oiling
tight spots.
Somehow almost every time my mother is visiting she somehow
spots the
box of new ones and in a quivering voice asks me what they
are for. I
tell her again and show her the ones that have oil in them
already. I
think the one time I had actually just given blood so I even
had a mark
on my arm! Yes, a mother will never stop worrying about her
children.
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>
>
> These diseases spread much too easily.
Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>>>> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>>>
>>> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
>>>
>>> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>> For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
>> hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
>> times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
>> question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
>>
>> Chris
>
>
> Where does that come from?
>
...
Long lore, at least...
I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in some
of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications. It was
something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed classes is
first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if it was taught as
a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller, rr-ties get bigger" was
the gist of it. :)
--
Leon wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>> "StephenM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>> Buyer beware. Just because McFeeleys stocks it, it does not make it
>>>> quality.
>>>
>>> Precicely, you can generally rest assured that if their fasteners claim
>>> to be hardened or graded they will be good, if not, it will be iffy.
>> I don't recall who it was but McFeely's was bought by somebody and is now
>> run as a subsidiary...I think the expanded product line outside the
>> original focus on square-head and related wood screw products and the
>> range of grades stems from that change; it was after that the catalogs
>> started to grow in size.
>
>
> Grainger but McFeeleys has had an expanded product line for quite a some
> time, long before the buy out.
>
>
If they're a subsidiary of Grainger now, that's a newer
realignment--they initially were bought by some (relatively) small
Michigan(?) outfit that promised they were going to leave them
essentially alone. I recall the letter from McNeely explaining how
nothing was going to change. That was when the mail catalog was still
only about 10-12 pages or so; almost all the square head and other wood
fasteners w/ only a few other things thrown in...
OK, I went anna' looked -- Safety Supply, Inc is the holder which is in
turn held by Grainger. But, they didn't buy McFeely until 2007 their
site says. I surely thought that announcement was quite some time
earlier than that. Came back to farm about this time in '00 and it
seemed to me it wasn't much after that....ah, well, it's amazing how
time all runs together as one gets geezery....
The original Mr McFeely was at another industrial supply outfit in
Lynchburg that was a full-line Delta distributor amongst a zillion other
things while we were there and left to start McFeely's about the time I
left VA for TN. They started out as primarily a custom sawyer and
millworks until after Bill was killed in mid-80s(?) in a mill accident...
--
Existential Angst wrote:
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>>>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> message news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
>>>>>>> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
>>>>>>> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
>>>>>>> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
>>>>>>> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
>>>>>>> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
>>>>>>> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These diseases spread much too easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
>>>> characters in cartoon strips.
>>>
>>> Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm
>>> valley-speak that's creeping into even mainstream advertising.
>>> That, and effing rap-speak... yo.
>>
>> Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york
>> street punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that
>> language was important.
>
> It's not New York.
> It's N'yawk, one word.
> Or, depending, New Jork.
>
> If Bloomberg has his way, it will be New "Poor people not
> allowed/Owned by Bloomberg" York.
French lady, heading home, tells cab driver "take me to New York Airport".
Three people shout "NEWARK". She replies "I don't _care_ you you pronounce
it".
Existential Angst wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 12/16/2009 07:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
>>>> requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
>>> That seems odd.
>>>
>>> For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
>>> 0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
>>> hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity greater
>>> than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the threads
>>> don't engage, of course.
>>>
>>> The above is from:
>>>
>>> http://www.awc.org/pdf/NDSCommentaryCompressed/Part11WoodScrewspp133to139.pdf
>>>
>>> Chris
>> I did not look and don't doubt your findings but if fully embedded threads
>> are not going to hold, a tight hole is not going to be any better. IMHO
>> making the pilot hole smaller will crush the wood fibers when the screw
>> goes in and in turn would weaken the part that the threads cut into. Then
>> add to that the unnessary extra torque to properly seat the screw which
>> IMHO would increase the chance of breakage.
>
> Well, it seems to me that compression would strengthen the material
> surrounding the lag threads.
> Think roll tapping (or thread forming) vs cut tapping, and/or think of a
> simple nail that compresses wood fibers.
> Roll tapping sposedly forms a stronger thread than cut tapping -- not
> perfectly analogous here, but it does sort of illustrate the benefit and
> strength of displaced material.
>
> The Q is: what is the best overall compromise?
> In soft wood, I would go .010 smaller than root diameter, just to
> guarantee full thread engagement, esp. with iffy drilling. Which would only
> be .005 worth of compression.
> But, appaently in hard wood, you don't even want full engagement! Go
> figger....
>
> The japanese dispensed with threads altogether, and just used
> dowels/pins/pegs.
> In the case, say, of a corner fence post, if you put snug-ish dowels in X,
> Y, and Z (per joint), the joint would be fully constrained. If all dowel
> holes were made through holes, the dowels could be easily removed.
> Actually, I think you could just as well dispense with the Z dowel, as each
> dowel effectively constrains 2 dimensions.
>
> Don't know how practical this is, but it does have its own elegance.
> I heard recently about japanese/tibetan structures fastened like this, still
> standing after centuries -- nary a thread in sight. Of course, gravity
> helps in these cases, as well.
They needed all the metal to make swords for lopping the heads off of
their enemies.
TDD
In article <[email protected]>, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
><[email protected]> said:
>
>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>
>And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>
I see you're in Indianapolis too... What do *you* consider to be "actual
hardware stores" here, then, if Ace and TV don't count?
Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
store is. Might be between the Henrietta Roads. It's a
miserable PIA to get in and out of the lot. The one on West
Ridge is MUCH easier to get in and out.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there.
> The
> parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all
> the
> way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers.
> The
> Victor NY store isn't so bad.
I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.
You are so, so right. I'll not make that mistake again.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
> Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
> alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
> torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar,
> and
> not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
> decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.
Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.
I like t his group. Lot of first hand wisdom. Maybe grade 5
was the way to go. Sigh. Well, the van has been junked, ages
ago. I guess for the next time, I'll try grade 5, and let
the class know how it worked out.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.
Not necessarily. I had a similar problem, likewise, an
alternator on
a van engine. In my case, the entire top of the alternator
hung off
the extended bolt shaft. I changed to a grade 8 bolt and it
snapped
right off from vibration within a couple days, the grade 8
being too
brittle. Went back to a grade 5.
nb
That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
Sargeant spit blood?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language
>> used by
>> characters in cartoon strips.
>
> Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm
> valley-speak
> that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That,
> and effing
> rap-speak... yo.
Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New
york street
punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that
language was
important.
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I like t his group. Lot of first hand wisdom. Maybe grade 5
> was the way to go. Sigh. Well, the van has been junked, ages
> ago. I guess for the next time, I'll try grade 5, and let
> the class know how it worked out.
>
>
> "notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.
>
> Not necessarily. I had a similar problem, likewise, an
> alternator on
> a van engine. In my case, the entire top of the alternator
> hung off
> the extended bolt shaft. I changed to a grade 8 bolt and it
> snapped
> right off from vibration within a couple days, the grade 8
> being too
> brittle. Went back to a grade 5.
Yep. People don't understand that when you harden steel you're narrowing
the margin between yield strength and ultimate tensile strength. Get it
hard enough and there's no yield at all--it doesn't move until it breaks,
where a weaker bolt will bend just a tiny amount and relieve stresses, and
incidentally work harden a tiny bit in the process.
>
> nb
My long wheelbase panel van, it's an event. I live closer to
the Victor store, anyhow. It's only a couple miles to
Lowe's.
To answer your question, though. Five or so miles. I try to
plan trips ahead of time, and thier miserable parking lot is
a real nonplusser. Same with Goodwill ABVI in Victor. Too
many tight turns.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
I have tried it. It's a non-event.
How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in
order to avoid
having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because
of the way a
parking lot was designed?
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:[email protected]...
> Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
> Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
Bend like the willow, don't break like the oak.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Yep. People don't understand that when you harden steel
you're narrowing
the margin between yield strength and ultimate tensile
strength. Get it
hard enough and there's no yield at all--it doesn't move
until it breaks,
where a weaker bolt will bend just a tiny amount and relieve
stresses, and
incidentally work harden a tiny bit in the process.
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:31 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>>>>>> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>>>>> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
>>>>>
>>>>> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>>>> For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
>>>> hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
>>>> times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
>>>> question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> Where does that come from?
>>>
>> ...
>>
>> Long lore, at least...
>>
>> I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in some
>> of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications. It was
>> something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed classes is
>> first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if it was taught as
>> a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller, rr-ties get bigger" was
>> the gist of it. :)
>
>
> I don't see the point. The pilot hole sizes quoted work for nails
> where compression determines strength but I don't see any benefit in
> having a pilot hole of less than the root diameter of a threaded
> fastener.
...
The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
softwoods that tend often to "crumble".
No claim made (at least by me) that there's any _precise_ ratio other
than the aforementioned bigger/smaller based on the material.
I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
time to search for it.
--
dpb wrote:
> Tom Watson wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:31 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook
>>>>>>> that has this spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has
>>>>>>> it!
>>>>>> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as
>>>>>> .173".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>>>>> For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the
>>>>> pilot hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between
>>>>> 0.7 and 0.9 times the root diameter, depending on the density of
>>>>> the wood in question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>> Where does that come from?
>>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Long lore, at least...
>>>
>>> I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in
>>> some of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications.
>>> It was something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed
>>> classes is first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if
>>> it was taught as a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller,
>>> rr-ties get bigger" was the gist of it. :)
>>
>>
>> I don't see the point. The pilot hole sizes quoted work for nails
>> where compression determines strength but I don't see any benefit in
>> having a pilot hole of less than the root diameter of a threaded
>> fastener.
> ...
>
> The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
> to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
> can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
> softwoods that tend often to "crumble".
>
> No claim made (at least by me) that there's any _precise_ ratio other
> than the aforementioned bigger/smaller based on the material.
>
> I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
> time to search for it.
It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:
"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40% to 70%
of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60% to 75%; and
for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to lag
screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag screws of
larger diameters."
notbob wrote:
> On 2009-12-17, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
>> to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
>> can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
>> softwoods that tend often to "crumble".
>
> Hmmm....
>
> Seems like it would be the opposite, the softer wood requiring a
Mea culpa...yes, that was inadvertent swap of the intent I didn't
catch... :( sorry.
--
J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
...
>> I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
>> time to search for it.
>
> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:
...
Indeed...thanks for saving me the effort... :)
Now if I just hadn't made the swap of sense in the relative sizes... :(
--
Leon wrote:
> "Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
>>> is:
>>>
>>> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
>>> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
>>> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
>>> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
>>> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
>>> screws of larger diameters."
>>
>> Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
>> appreciated!
>>
>> The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of
>> 0.182". Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five
>> percent of this value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8"
>> right in the middle.
>>
>> Jon
>
>
> BUT Jon,,,,,, While it is a kewl reference that agrees with what you
> were using as a pilot hole, how did that work out for you?
>
> The information could be out dated for readily available fasteners
> today. If might be a new publication using old data.
The numbers are based on maximizing holding power, not making a crap
fastener survive being driven. They state the assumptions, which are 35,000
PSI yield and 77,000 PSI UTS, slightly higher than required for a Grade 1
bolt.
Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
>> is:
>>
>> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
>> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
>> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
>> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
>> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
>> screws of larger diameters."
>>
>
> I wonder if that material was written in modern years or 30 plus. I
> see lag screw failures galore.
Are you saying that the properties of wood have changed so radically in the
last 30 years that lag screws hold differently in them now? Because the
recommendations are not about allowing you to use crap screws without
breaking them while driving, they are about sticking wood together so it
stays stuck.
Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Are you saying that the properties of wood have changed so radically
>> in the
>> last 30 years that lag screws hold differently in them now?
>
> Well yes actually. Wood with wider growth rings as oppose to
> narrower more compact gowth rings, which were more available many
> years back, may yield different results today.
Won't that be reflected in the density though?
>> Because the
>> recommendations are not about allowing you to use crap screws without
>> breaking them while driving, they are about sticking wood together
>> so it stays stuck.
Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying that the properties of wood have changed so
>>>> radically in the
>>>> last 30 years that lag screws hold differently in them now?
>>>
>>> Well yes actually. Wood with wider growth rings as oppose to
>>> narrower more compact gowth rings, which were more available many
>>> years back, may yield different results today.
>>
>> Won't that be reflected in the density though?
>
>
> Oh no.... not at all.
You're sure?
"jaymelone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> jaymelone had written this in response to
> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Home-Depot-1-4-Lag-Screw-412326-.htm
> :
> Guys, just like you wouldn't buy a water heater from Home Depot, I
> wouldn't recommend their hardware, either. The quality is sub-standard and
> pricing is through the roof.
>
> I'm opening a site online where you'll be able to find any fastener in any
> material for any job. We'll also have some pretty cool features to help
> you plan your projects and buy the right stuff, and the right amount, too!
> We'll even help you contractors out there engage with and grow your
> customer base. We have a lot in the works.
>
I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish of
50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
basilisk
Oh, bother. I had a couple gross of those. One of my
multiple wives cleaned out the space ship we use to hi to
Kolob, and had all that sent out with the trash. Good thing
she didn't throw out my flashlight.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish
of
50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
basilisk
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Oh, bother. I had a couple gross of those. One of my
> multiple wives cleaned out the space ship we use to hi to
> Kolob, and had all that sent out with the trash. Good thing
> she didn't throw out my flashlight.
>
I'll bet you would have made me a good deal,
story of my life.
basilisk
> .
>
>
> "basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
> allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
> double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish
> of
> 50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
> some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
>
> basilisk
>
>
>
>
The Lowes ones are grade 5, the HD ones are grade 2. After
all this long thread, I know you'll make the right choice.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
> I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
> allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
> double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish
> of
> 50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
> some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
>
They are 79¢ at Home Depot, but I think the Lowes 35 mile up
the road has
them for only 77¢ so take the trip to find out for sure
before you buy and
waste money.
In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
-- Andy Barss
In rec.woodworking Steve B <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
:> In rec.woodworking Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
:> <snip>
:>
:> Try Ace Hardware. Much higher quality, and often cheaper.
:>
:> -- Andy Barss
: Ace has consistently had the highest prices for any item you can mention,
: unless it's on the clearance rack, and then, it's just under what the other
: stores sell it for every day. Surely you jest.
They're independently owned and managed, and may be different where you
are. Here (Southern AZ), I have one a couple miles away which has a
pretty deep stock of decent hardware (grade 5 included), along with a
billion things you'd never find at HD or Lowe's (cotter pins, motor shaft
keys, brushes for electric motors,...). if I need something really
obscure, there's one about 6 miles away which is enormous, and
has pretty much anything I've ever needed that isn't made of a strange
metal.
Both have nice, quite knowledgable staff.
And the prices are, for all the items I have compared anyway, cheaper than
HD for better stuff. No kidding.
-- Andy Barss
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:19:09 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
>> is:
>>
>> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
>> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
>> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
>> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
>> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
>> screws of larger diameters."
>
>Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
>appreciated!
>
>The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
>Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
>value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.
>
>Jon
>
What do you mean by "shank diameter"?
Machinery's Handbook lists the "body" or "shoulder" diameter of a 1/4"
lag bolt as between .237" and .260". This is the area that is not
threaded.
The "root diameter" is listed as .173". This is the diameter of the
remaining cylinder after the threads are formed.
(American National Standard Square Lag Screws - ANSI/ASME
B18.2.1-1996)
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>>> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>>
>>
>> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
>>
>> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>
>For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
>hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
>times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
>question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
>
>Chris
Where does that come from?
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:22:17 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>>>> <[email protected]> said:
>>>>
>>>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>>>
>>>> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Why not?
>>
>> A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
>> a real hardware store is purely unintentional.
>
>
>That really depends on how they're run by the individual owners. The one I
>use is pretty remarkable.
I've been in two that were quite good (both in the Poughkeepsie NY
area). All others have been pretty unremarkable.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>> at
>>>> Home Depot.
>>>
>>>Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>>Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>>enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>
>>>Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>>
>> Any real hardware store.
>
>
> I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
> you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
> guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
>
> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I
> agree for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought some
> pretty cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had several
> break from 100 pack box.
>
> I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source for
> screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are going to
> get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged plastic bags of
> screws from those type stores I have never had a problem with larger bolts
> and lag screws providing they had proper sized pilot screws.
McFeely's may be a great source, but sometimes you need fasteners NOW. Not
tomorrow.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Jon Danniken wrote:
>>
>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>> at
>>> Home Depot.
>>
>>Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>
>>Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>
> Any real hardware store.
I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I agree
for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought some pretty
cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had several break
from 100 pack box.
I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source for
screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are going to
get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged plastic bags of
screws from those type stores I have never had a problem with larger bolts
and lag screws providing they had proper sized pilot screws.
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there. The
> parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all the
> way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers. The
> Victor NY store isn't so bad.
I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.
notbob <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [..] also, and when it warms up, run over to the
> Coast and make sure the Pacific is still there. I
> worry so.
Are you kidding?! Wait for warmer weather? Spawn's one of them-thar polar
b'ahrs. She loves the Pacific in winter.
The Ranger
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
>> is:
>>
>> "For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
>> to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
>> to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
>> as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
>> lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
>> screws of larger diameters."
>
> Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
> appreciated!
>
> The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
> Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
> value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.
>
> Jon
BUT Jon,,,,,, While it is a kewl reference that agrees with what you were
using as a pilot hole, how did that work out for you?
The information could be out dated for readily available fasteners today.
If might be a new publication using old data.
On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>
>
> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
>
> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
Chris
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
Even better, don't buy fasteners at Home Depot. If you want quality, go to
an industrial supply house or order from McFeelys.com
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:41:39 -0800, Andrew wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that all of the standard fasteners at HD are made of
> quite soft metal. I have run into the same problem using lag screws
> on deck framing. If they get a little warm from friction, the heads
> twist right off.
I've found it's worth checking them rather than blindly picking them up -
I've seen screws from different places that are listed as the same thing,
but sometimes they have narrower shafts and are prone to shearing.
Thankfully my local farm supply place seems to be consistently good...
In article <[email protected]>,
"Nonny" <[email protected]> wrote:
> FWIW, my neighbor asked me and another neighbor to hang her new
> LCD TV set, using an arm bracket. Without going into detail, we
> needed (4) 1/4" X 6" lags to get the job done really solid. I
> sized the pilot hole myself, using the MK22 eyeball device in my
> head, and by the way, the hole was drilled with a 5" long bit.
>
> 2 of the blasted things torqued off, meaning that we had to adjust
> the height of the bracket to remount it. They are a POS and it'll
> be a cold day in Hades before I use anything like that in a
> project.
Let's see, you used a 5" long drill for a 6" long bolt. (How much of the
drill was in the chuck, BTW?) And I don't see any mention of a larger
counterbore for the unthreaded portion. But I'm sure you saved face with
the neighbor by blaming the hardware.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
> evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
> hole.
>
> After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
> ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
> it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
> butter.
>
> It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.
>
> Here is the result:
>
> http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg
>
> On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
> that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).
>
> I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
> halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
> results.
>
> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
> Home Depot.
>
> Jon
Hardware comes in grades. Next time get grade 5 or better. But a 1/8"
pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter of
the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together, with
the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw should be
unobscured by the drill.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jon Danniken" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Smitty Two wrote:
> > But a 1/8"
> > pilot is too small for a 1/4" screw. The pilot should be the diameter
> > of the shank. Hold the screw and the drill up to the light together,
> > with the drill in front of the screw. Only the threads of the screw
> > should be unobscured by the drill.
>
> No, an 1/8" is actually too small for a 1/4" (size 14) screw:
>
> http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/woodscrewpilotholes.htm
>
> Jon
I thought I said that. I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet. BTW,
that table is for tapered wood screws. I didn't think lag screws were
tapered.
"basilisk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
> I have an immediate need for 5 beryllium copper, 1" x 16"
> allen head capscrews, 8tpi, with left hand,
> double lead buttress threads, polished to a surface finish of
> 50nm and having a total indicated runout of .0002" and
> some plastic wing nuts for same. :)
>
They are 79¢ at Home Depot, but I think the Lowes 35 mile up the road has
them for only 77¢ so take the trip to find out for sure before you buy and
waste money.
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So true. I've got a couple of such stores near me. But they
> are hard to find, and often go out of business for lack of
> customer support.
I responded to Doug on a similar note. The old country hardware stores can
be good if the owners know how to run a business compeditively. I have a
hardware store near me that is thriving, with 3 big box stores within 10
minutes drive, and they beat the big box prices.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
>> <[email protected]> said:
>>
>>> Got an actual hardware store in your town?
>>
>> And Ace and TruValue don't count.
>>
>
>
>Why not?
A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
a real hardware store is purely unintentional.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:31 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
>>>>> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
>>>>
>>>> The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".
>>>>
>>>> The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
>>> For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
>>> hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
>>> times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
>>> question--softwood gets a smaller hole.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>>
>> Where does that come from?
>>
>...
>
>Long lore, at least...
>
>I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in some
>of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications. It was
>something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed classes is
>first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if it was taught as
>a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller, rr-ties get bigger" was
>the gist of it. :)
I don't see the point. The pilot hole sizes quoted work for nails
where compression determines strength but I don't see any benefit in
having a pilot hole of less than the root diameter of a threaded
fastener.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Leon wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Jon Danniken wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin
>>>> at
>>>> Home Depot.
>>> Okay, then it's not just me that has that problem with lag bolts from
>>> Home Depot. I've become anal about drilling pilot holes that are long
>>> enough and large enough diameter to deal with these crappy lag bolts.
>>>
>>> Where can you buy good quality lag bolts though?
>> Any real hardware store.
>
>
> I keep seeing this answer.... what does that mean exactly? Not piling on
> you but what exactly defines a "real" hardware store, and does that
> guarantee that the "real" hardware store will also not have crap?
>
> MeFeeleys is generally considered a reputable source for fasteners, I agree
> for wood screws and graded nuts and bolts however I have bought some pretty
> cheesy ungraded machine screws from McFeeleys, I have had several break
> from 100 pack box.
>
> I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source for
> screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are going to
> get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged plastic bags of
> screws from those type stores I have never had a problem with larger bolts
> and lag screws providing they had proper sized pilot screws.
>
>
>
>
>
In the little town I live in, it's "Fred's Bolts Nuts & Tools". Any
threaded fastener you want and more of high quality.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:21:45 -0800, Jon Danniken <[email protected]> wrote:
>I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
>evening. It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
>hole.
>After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
>ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. I wasn't giving
>it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
>butter.
1/4"? What's that for, a doll house?
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> If they're a subsidiary of Grainger now, that's a newer realignment--they
> initially were bought by some (relatively) small Michigan(?) outfit that
> promised they were going to leave them essentially alone. I recall the
> letter from McNeely explaining how nothing was going to change. That was
> when the mail catalog was still only about 10-12 pages or so; almost all
> the square head and other wood fasteners w/ only a few other things thrown
> in...
>
> OK, I went anna' looked -- Safety Supply, Inc is the holder which is in
> turn held by Grainger. But, they didn't buy McFeely until 2007 their site
> says. I surely thought that announcement was quite some time earlier than
> that. Came back to farm about this time in '00 and it seemed to me it
> wasn't much after that....ah, well, it's amazing how time all runs
> together as one gets geezery....
>
> The original Mr McFeely was at another industrial supply outfit in
> Lynchburg that was a full-line Delta distributor amongst a zillion other
> things while we were there and left to start McFeely's about the time I
> left VA for TN. They started out as primarily a custom sawyer and
> millworks until after Bill was killed in mid-80s(?) in a mill accident...
Yeah I remember that now, going way back. IIRC McFeeley himself sold the
business to JIM? IIRC Jim? worked there already. The Grainger thing is
pretty recent, last 2 or 3 years. The other one you are talking about was
probably 20+ years ago.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 12/16/2009 07:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
>> requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
>
> That seems odd.
>
> For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
> 0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
> hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity greater
> than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the threads
> don't engage, of course.
>
> The above is from:
>
> http://www.awc.org/pdf/NDSCommentaryCompressed/Part11WoodScrewspp133to139.pdf
>
> Chris
I did not look and don't doubt your findings but if fully embedded threads
are not going to hold, a tight hole is not going to be any better. IMHO
making the pilot hole smaller will crush the wood fibers when the screw goes
in and in turn would weaken the part that the threads cut into. Then add to
that the unnessary extra torque to properly seat the screw which IMHO would
increase the chance of breakage.
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
> Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
> district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
> "Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
> looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
> when one of the girls in my class started calling him
> "Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.
These diseases spread much too easily.
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> I also agree that the big box chains are probably not the best source for
>> screws but if you buy name brand screws from those stores you are going
>> to get better quality. While I steer away from prepackaged plastic bags
>> of screws from those type stores I have never had a problem with larger
>> bolts and lag screws providing they had proper sized pilot screws.
>
>
> McFeely's may be a great source, but sometimes you need fasteners NOW. Not
> tomorrow.
For many years now I have been buying from McFeeleys, but only to restock
what I have used from my inventory. I typically order 500-1,000 screws from
them once or twice a year. MUCH handier to have it on hand that to go the
store and buy them and are typically better quality.
"Existential Angst" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
> And what diameter would that be, since lags are tapered? And if there
> were such a diameter, you would mean "root diameter" or minor diameter --
> right?
I have never seen a tapered lag screw unless it was "very" short, and the
diameter you are looking for is the "body" diameter as described by
McFeeleys screw sizing chart.
> Altho ahm no 'spert on wood, I doubt that the pilot hole should be exactly
> a root diameter (if there were one) for wood. After all, yer not tapping
> the wood like metal.
> Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
> spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
Actually you do want the pilot hole the same size as the body diameter.
>
> I'm sure there has to be some compression of the wood fibre, for adequate
> strength, when drilling pilots. 1/8" actually sounds about right.
You only want the threads cutting into the wood, 1/8" is too small.