Neandering...

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:59 +0000 (UTC), John Thomas
<[email protected]> queried:

>I know this may be a semi-religous question, but have you found any real
>value in joining the 'flat plane society' ?
>
>I've amassed a fairly decent selection of nice, old Stanley users, and
>that's the one thing I've never bothered to do. I've never measured for
>'anti flatness' on any of the soles of the planes; I have done a gross
>sanity check with a straightedge, and while there's the occaisonal
>glimmer of light betwixt the two (and that reminds me, now that I've got
>a Starrett square, I should revisit this), none of the Stanley's are
>anything at all like the POS buck bro's that I wasted my money on.
>Which is to say, they've all been pretty flat.

Well, my circa 1919 #7C rocked when it was put on a flat surface, so I
just assumed the galoots on the wreck were right about removing twist
in the sole when I first started lurking here about 1996. I also have
a warped #32 Transitional (wooden body with regular Stanley hardware
to hold the blade), and it's pretty hard to joint an edge with it. I
haven't got around to fixing it up yet other than sharpening the
blade, as I will also have to mortise in a patch to make the mouth
smaller.

I'm not too hung up about seeing slivers of light. I figure that as
long as the mouth, toe and heel are in a plane, and no bumps sticking
out in between, it should be OK. After all, that's how the japanese
flatten their planes. Which reminds me, I also have a Footprint jack
plane where the mouth was higher than most of the sole. Noticeable
improvement after flattening. I could not take thin shavings before,
now I can.

>OTOH, I've found a lot of value in making sure the frog seats well, the
>mouth is clean, etc, etc .... so I'm curious about this.

Agree on that.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" twice
in reply address for real email address

"John Thomas" <[email protected]>

: I know this may be a semi-religous question, but have you found any real
: value in joining the 'flat plane society' ?

Some might see the light by looking at my web site -> Planing Notes -> Join
The Flat Sole Brigade.

'Coping With Gnarly Grain' might possibly convince those who need a high
standard of finish.

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email address is username@ISP
username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

CW wrote:

> You can buy a good sharpening jig for less than $15.00. That piece of

I need one for sure.

> granite you have laying around will make a great scarysharp plate. That

I have a lot of pieces of granite laying around, so I don't have to use the
gigantic one for this. I built a little sidewalk out of the stuff, but I
still have several scraps about the size of your average sharpening stone.
I finally stopped bringing it home because I ran out of uses for it, but I
have a pretty much infinite supply if anyone wants me to mail them a chunk
of shiny granite. (Ignore the coffee grounds... Yes, it comes out of a
Dumpster...)

I definitely need to learn how to sharpen properly. I spent a good bit of
time today working on this iron without proper tools, and basically, I need
to buy a lot of stuff in order to be able to do this.

I've got the book, but none of the equipment, and the equipment isn't
available locally. Mail order is a PITA without credit cards, but it looks
like that's the way I need to go if I ever want to move forward with
sharpening.

My new, out of the box Marples chisels are considerably sharper than my poor
attempts at sharpening my old Stanley chisels, but they're starting to dull
already.

I figure I'll start practicing on the cheap chisels, and then work up to
this plane iron, and then try to sharpen my good chisels.

Using sharp tools sure is a joy. I cut some recesses into the side of a
wooden locomotive without touching a mallet, and without cutting myself due
to loss of control. That was just with the factory Record edge, which I
understand isn't terribly sharp.

> plane you have is very useful. Depth adjustment is done the same as on a
> wooden plane. With a mallet. Takes a bit of practice but is not hard.

I need to flatten the sole too. I tried to use it today, after getting the
iron somewhat almost sort of kind of better than it was, and I have a long
way to go before I master this Neandering stuff.

I think learning how to sharpen stuff should be my next big project. I've
been hacking stuff together out of wood for years now, and I still can't
sharpen anything more delicate than a machete worth a damn.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17662 Approximate word count: 529860
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

snip
Silvan wrote:
> I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made crude
> things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
> things I can do with it.
> Modern woodworking wisdom would say get a jointer and a planer, but they're
> both expensive and they take up space. I really don't have room for any
> more stationary power tools in my shop. Not even mobile/benchtop models.
> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
> rough-sawn oak board?

I guess the first question is based on the number and type of planes
that you own. So Far. If you can, this is the time to run away.
Planes can be a trifle addictive, and unfortunately there are a lot of
different brands and models,as well as types. Boggles the mind, POs the
SWMBO. Advance at your own risk.

Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net

[looks at his recently chewed hands]
yup

--
Young Carpenter

"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"

"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 00:17:00 -0400, "Morgans" <[email protected]>
> pixelated:
>
> >
> >"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made
> >crude
> >> things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more
refined
> >> things I can do with it.
> >>
> >> Modern woodworking wisdom would say get a jointer and a planer, but
> >they're
> >> both expensive and they take up space. I really don't have room for
any
> >> more stationary power tools in my shop. Not even mobile/benchtop
models.
> >>
> >> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
> >> rough-sawn oak board?
>
> >Cut off two or three fingers?
>
> >Is this a trick question? :-)
>
> Please note that after a gazillion TV shows and decades of
> woodworking that Our Lord Roy still has all 5 digits on each
> of his hands.
>
> Despite its quaint tendency to leak that bright red stuff (as
> shown on TV! and in my shop) when even slightly damaged, our
> skin mostly remains where it was before said damage with only
> slight dips and bumps to show for it.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Gator: The other white meat!
> ------------------------------
> http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doctrinaire types have difficulty with the obvious - woodworking is a
"good
> enough" and a "make it fit" activity, not a machine, micrometer and
> interchangeable parts production. That's what it means to work by hand -
> things go together after fitting, not direct from the machine.
>
>
Learning that very quickly with my present project.

--
Young Carpenter

"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > that the plane is salvable, but if you go around whacking a metal plane
> > it won't be for long. Warps the plane.
>
> I'll remember that. :)

Forget it. Not true. Tapping with a mallet to adjust wouldn't hurt it a bit
and is common practice on planes without adjusters.
>
> I haven't gotten that far yet anyway. I'm trying to flatten the sole. Is
> there a better way than using my belt sander? It's still got some
> curvature around the perimeter of the casting, and one low spot (or high
> spot, depending on how you look at it) that hasn't been hit yet somewhat
> off the centerline. There's a fairly broad, flat area all the way around
> now, but I'm not down to the point where the entire thing is perfectly
> flat. This after running with the thing duct taped to my belt sander for
> over an hour.
>
> It seems "flat enough" to me, but I'm not sure if I should go the extra
> distance or not.


Be careful with the belt sander. It is very easy to do more harm than good
with one. Take the belt off that thing and cut it so it lays flat. Put that
on that piece of granite of yours and finish it by hand. For it to perform
well, it needs to be flat all over, not just in spots.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> Confirmed post number: 17672 Approximate word count: 530160
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:28:06 -0400, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made crude
>things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
>things I can do with it.
>
>So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
>rough-sawn oak board?

Make crude things out of the stuff. (and get blood all over the place
in the process).


Regards, Tom
Tom Watson - Woodworker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] wrote:

[snip]
> > Advance at your own risk.

Yeah -- the addiction is incredible!! Oh, and I own a jointer (but
not a planer -- I'm too busy buying planes right now to bother with
that ;)

[snip]

> So I'd be looking at buying some hand planes.

Give Steve Knight a hollar (http://www.knight-toolworks.com). Oh, and
be prepared for some serious drooling.

For a good article on wood planes vs metal planes check out:
http://www.liwoodworkers.org/media/newsletter/LIWCNewsletterJune03.pdf

And one on our good friend Steve:
http://www.liwoodworkers.org/media/newsletter/LIWCNewsletterAug03.pdf

Then check out www.leevalley.com as well -- Veritas Sharpening Jig a
must:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=33001&category=1,43072,45936&ccurrency=2&SID=

Then get converted to Scary Sharp(TM):
http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM

And you'll probably want a bench with a face vice at least, and some
bench dogs for sure (lee valley has hardware galore if you need it --
woodcraft/rockler/etc do as well).

Good luck, and welcome to the group of addicts, err...whatever you
call it.

(Oh, and I still plan to buy/use a planer and my jointer still gets
plenty of time, so I bounce back and forth between both camps...)

Mike

[email protected] wrote:

> I guess the first question is based on the number and type of planes
> that you own. So Far. If you can, this is the time to run away.
> Planes can be a trifle addictive, and unfortunately there are a lot of
> different brands and models,as well as types. Boggles the mind, POs the
> SWMBO. Advance at your own risk.

I own one cheap Stanley block plane. The iron is screwed up from botched
attempts to sharpen it. It needs to be ground, lapped, honed, etc. and I
don't yet have any of the right sort of jiggery to ensure a successful job
at that, so the plane is pretty much useless. I think it would be all but
useless anyway based on looking through catalogs and whatnot. It has no
depth adjustment, and it's difficult to set it up even when the iron is
sharp.

So I'd be looking at buying some hand planes. Expensive as they are, I
could probably come out ahead relative to the cost of a planer, jointer,
and a new ~$2,000 shop in order to have enough floor space to accommodate
them. (I don't even have bench space for benchtops in the current shop.)

Plus doing it that way would teach me a thing or two, I think. Time isn't
really a factor. It's not like I'm doing production woodwork. Besides,
doing some hand work will help build my arms up for the eventual day when I
managed to convince SWMBO to let me build a forge and learn how to make
swords. :)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17634 Approximate word count: 529020
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Luigi Zanasi <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:45:19 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
> scribbled
>
>>
>>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> > that the plane is salvable, but if you go around whacking a metal
>>> > plane it won't be for long. Warps the plane.
>>>
>>> I'll remember that. :)
>>
>>Forget it. Not true. Tapping with a mallet to adjust wouldn't hurt it
>>a bit and is common practice on planes without adjusters.
>
> Achshally, I broke off the bullnose end of the casting on my Stanley
> #130 double end block plane by tapping it. Maybe it was because the
> casting is pretty thin at that point. But it should be OK on other
> planes.
>
>>Be careful with the belt sander. It is very easy to do more harm than
>>good with one. Take the belt off that thing and cut it so it lays
>>flat. Put that on that piece of granite of yours and finish it by
>>hand. For it to perform well, it needs to be flat all over, not just
>>in spots.
>
> Listen to Clint on that one, or use a glass shelf. That's how I've
> flattened my planes.
>
> Luigi
> Replace "no" with "yk" twice
> in reply address for real email address
>

I know this may be a semi-religous question, but have you found any real
value in joining the 'flat plane society' ?

I've amassed a fairly decent selection of nice, old Stanley users, and
that's the one thing I've never bothered to do. I've never measured for
'anti flatness' on any of the soles of the planes; I have done a gross
sanity check with a straightedge, and while there's the occaisonal
glimmer of light betwixt the two (and that reminds me, now that I've got
a Starrett square, I should revisit this), none of the Stanley's are
anything at all like the POS buck bro's that I wasted my money on.
Which is to say, they've all been pretty flat.

OTOH, I've found a lot of value in making sure the frog seats well, the
mouth is clean, etc, etc .... so I'm curious about this.

Regards,
JT

Use a scrub plane to level, a jack to surface, and a smooth to finish what
was going to show. Everybody used to do it that way. Once a year I do the
same for the kids at school, as much for a history as a woodworking
demonstration. I follow with a machine demo.

Doctrinaire types have difficulty with the obvious - woodworking is a "good
enough" and a "make it fit" activity, not a machine, micrometer and
interchangeable parts production. That's what it means to work by hand -
things go together after fitting, not direct from the machine.

See Jeff Gorman or Patrick Leach's site if you don't have a library or
bookstore.


"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made
crude
> things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
> things I can do with it.
>
> Modern woodworking wisdom would say get a jointer and a planer, but
they're
> both expensive and they take up space. I really don't have room for any
> more stationary power tools in my shop. Not even mobile/benchtop models.
>
> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
> rough-sawn oak board?
>

You can buy a good sharpening jig for less than $15.00. That piece of
granite you have laying around will make a great scarysharp plate. That
plane you have is very useful. Depth adjustment is done the same as on a
wooden plane. With a mallet. Takes a bit of practice but is not hard.
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> I own one cheap Stanley block plane. The iron is screwed up from botched
> attempts to sharpen it. It needs to be ground, lapped, honed, etc. and I
> don't yet have any of the right sort of jiggery to ensure a successful job
> at that, so the plane is pretty much useless. I think it would be all but
> useless anyway based on looking through catalogs and whatnot. It has no
> depth adjustment, and it's difficult to set it up even when the iron is
> sharp.

I think it is you who is doing the misreading. Silvan wrote the post that I
was responding to and that is who I attributed it to. As far as using the
mallet on the plane, adjusting them in that manner will not warp it and the
block plane that he had was the type without lateral or depth adjustment.
That's the way those work.
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> snip of misread post
> CW wrote:
>
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > > I own one cheap Stanley block plane. The iron is screwed up from
botched
> > > attempts to sharpen it. It needs to be ground, lapped, honed, etc.
and I
> > > don't yet have any of the right sort of jiggery to ensure a successful
job
> > > at that, so the plane is pretty much useless. I think it would be all
but
> > > useless anyway based on looking through catalogs and whatnot. It has
no
> > > depth adjustment, and it's difficult to set it up even when the iron
is
> > > sharp.
>
> That wasn't me writing that. I own a lot of planes, woodies as well as
> metal bodies and I would never use a mallett on a metal bodied plane. I
> responded to this off-line rather than burn bandwidth. You are right
> that the plane is salvable, but if you go around whacking a metal plane
> it won't be for long. Warps the plane.
>
> Dave in Fairfax
> --
> reply-to doesn't work
> use:
> daveldr at att dot net

[email protected] wrote:

> that the plane is salvable, but if you go around whacking a metal plane
> it won't be for long. Warps the plane.

I'll remember that. :)

I haven't gotten that far yet anyway. I'm trying to flatten the sole. Is
there a better way than using my belt sander? It's still got some
curvature around the perimeter of the casting, and one low spot (or high
spot, depending on how you look at it) that hasn't been hit yet somewhat
off the centerline. There's a fairly broad, flat area all the way around
now, but I'm not down to the point where the entire thing is perfectly
flat. This after running with the thing duct taped to my belt sander for
over an hour.

It seems "flat enough" to me, but I'm not sure if I should go the extra
distance or not.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17672 Approximate word count: 530160
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

CW wrote:

> Be careful with the belt sander. It is very easy to do more harm than good
> with one. Take the belt off that thing and cut it so it lays flat. Put

Or, um, buy an inexpensive pack chock full of sandpaper and avoid destroying
a $6 belt. :)

Seriously though, how much risk of harm is there? It's a stationary belt
sander, not a portable one, and the platten is quite flat. I'll go check
it with a piece of granite tomorrow, but I'd bet it's just as flat. Maybe
I'm in for a surprise.

> that on that piece of granite of yours and finish it by hand. For it to
> perform well, it needs to be flat all over, not just in spots.

Hmmm... Along these lines... I wonder if I could flatten my warped table
saw (aluminum) with a piece of self-stick sandpaper affixed to a block of
granite. I have some big blocks of granite maybe 4" wide and 14" long. I
could use several sheets stuck edge to edge or whatever it took. Let the
weight do the job, and just slide it back and forth... Maybe I could get
it flat, or closer to being flat. I can't set the blade perpendicular to
the table on both sides of the table simultaneously, which is rather
unsettling to say the least.

Replacing the saw is a subject that has been beaten to death already, but
I'm stuck with it for some time yet. I tuned it up, and have been
impressed with the new-found quality of my cuts until today, when I noticed
that my rips are still some fraction of a degree off 90. I want to dial it
the rest of the way, and it's damn near impossible. Of course the table
surface itself could be entirely to blame. This was narrow stock, and I'll
bet it went right into the dip on the left side of the blade... I was
probably testing with wider stock, which would tend to average out the
problem by riding on the high spots.

Mostly thinking out loud, sorry...

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17693 Approximate word count: 530790
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 10:08:29 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
pixelated:

>On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:28:06 -0400, Silvan
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made crude
>>things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
>>things I can do with it.
>>
>>So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
>>rough-sawn oak board?
>
>Make crude things out of the stuff. (and get blood all over the place
>in the process).

Hah! Anyone in a shop who isn't a little bit bloody
isn't really working.
-------


------------------------------
Gator: The other white meat!
------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 00:17:00 -0400, "Morgans" <[email protected]>
pixelated:

>
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made
>crude
>> things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
>> things I can do with it.
>>
>> Modern woodworking wisdom would say get a jointer and a planer, but
>they're
>> both expensive and they take up space. I really don't have room for any
>> more stationary power tools in my shop. Not even mobile/benchtop models.
>>
>> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
>> rough-sawn oak board?

>Cut off two or three fingers?

>Is this a trick question? :-)

Please note that after a gazillion TV shows and decades of
woodworking that Our Lord Roy still has all 5 digits on each
of his hands.

Despite its quaint tendency to leak that bright red stuff (as
shown on TV! and in my shop) when even slightly damaged, our
skin mostly remains where it was before said damage with only
slight dips and bumps to show for it.


------------------------------
Gator: The other white meat!
------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:45:19 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
scribbled

>
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > that the plane is salvable, but if you go around whacking a metal plane
>> > it won't be for long. Warps the plane.
>>
>> I'll remember that. :)
>
>Forget it. Not true. Tapping with a mallet to adjust wouldn't hurt it a bit
>and is common practice on planes without adjusters.

Achshally, I broke off the bullnose end of the casting on my Stanley
#130 double end block plane by tapping it. Maybe it was because the
casting is pretty thin at that point. But it should be OK on other
planes.

>Be careful with the belt sander. It is very easy to do more harm than good
>with one. Take the belt off that thing and cut it so it lays flat. Put that
>on that piece of granite of yours and finish it by hand. For it to perform
>well, it needs to be flat all over, not just in spots.

Listen to Clint on that one, or use a glass shelf. That's how I've
flattened my planes.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" twice
in reply address for real email address

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've got access to a goodly amount of really rough lumber. I've made
crude
> things out of the stuff in the past, but I'd like to see what more refined
> things I can do with it.
>
> Modern woodworking wisdom would say get a jointer and a planer, but
they're
> both expensive and they take up space. I really don't have room for any
> more stationary power tools in my shop. Not even mobile/benchtop models.
>
> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
> rough-sawn oak board?
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> Confirmed post number: 17581 Approximate word count: 527430
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>

Cut off two or three fingers?

Is this a trick question? :-)
--
Jim in NC

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So I'm thinking about neandering... What would Roy Underhill do with a
> rough-sawn oak board?
>


Call Norm??
Greg