Which chisel?

On Friday, April 29, 2016 at 10:36:22 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:

> Until then, I spend what I can afford w/o buying junk. ;)

You don't have to buy junk, but you should know there is a real line in the=
sand when it comes to tool steel and its utility use.

Chisels are made from just about every kind of steel, depending on the make=
r and their specs. But the real story to steel is its designed uses and it=
s heat treatment when annealing/tempering. I am a confessed steel junky, n=
ot as bad as I once was... but still... good steel makes me happy.

LN's A1 is no more than "OK". For the money you spend, they should be grea=
t, not just good. My personal experience with them wasn't great. Most of =
your air hardening steels such as A1, O1, etc., aren't that good at holding=
an edge but were developed (in the case of A1, in Japan) for tool/die work=
that required good abrasion resistance and toughness. I like O1 for cutti=
ng tools more than A1, but of the three I like D2 best and have purchased s=
everal cutting tools with in D2 and its finer carbides hold and edge better=
(when properly treated) than most other tool steel. I really like D2, but=
it is too hard for most to sharpen.

BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworki=
ng:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx

So what to do? You can go to the best steel such as the Crucible metals or=
the newer high speed tools that use M2, etc. and give away a pay check per=
chisel, or you can compromise.

When I started doing woodwork in a shop 40+ years ago, all the chisels were=
1095, 1084, and some of the heavy "slicks" were 5200. A few of the chisel=
s I used later had extra vanadium in their formula, but were still just car=
bon steels.

I hate to sound so pedestrian, but they worked just fine. The old chisels =
were softer than I liked being hardened only to about 55 or so on the Rockw=
ell scale, but that also made them easy to sharpen, hone and touch up.

There are good values on these chisels out there if as pointed out before y=
ou do some scouting on your own. For example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Craftsman-wood-chisels-/131794992622?hash=
=3Ditem1eaf97fdee:g:sjsAAOSw3mpXISZa

or=20

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-wood-chisels-Buck-Bros-Dunlap-/131794991210=
?hash=3Ditem1eaf97f86a:g:TbIAAOSw4hdXISeL

These types of chisels can do the work you want and you can probably get th=
em at a good price. Might take a few tries, but then again it might not. =
=20

I understand the money crunch as much as anyone, and I don't think you shou=
ld deny yourself the fun of using a sharp chisel (even if you have to touch=
it up more than the more expensive models), one that was made for a specif=
ic job. By the way, a paring chisel is a great choice for the work you desc=
ribed, but you should know that if you are only working on material 1/2" th=
ick, a butt chisel with the bevel eased back a bit on the edge will work ju=
st fine.

The chisels to stay away from no matter how tempting are the new Buck Broth=
ers, and in that line nothing newer than about 25 years old. No Sears Comp=
anion line, although I have been pleased with utility value of their old ro=
und handled butt chisel line. No generic "Sheffield brand" which are now s=
old as a brand, not as a particular steel product. No Harbor Freight. No =
off brands that are poorly milled and poorly finished.

One last thing, check this out for a ton of really valuable information and=
some good opinions:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?162740-First-Bench-Chisels-Advic=
e-Needed

Good luck!

Robert

>
>> Lee Valley shipping charges are based on the dollar value
>> of the order - period. <except for a surcharge for oversize>
>> It has always been this way.
>> They began as a " mail order company " ...
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/HelpShippingReturns.aspx?pb=1#ShippingCharges
>


>Gee, too bad yer not the LV rep I talked to on the phone.
>I thought I would be charged by the actual cost of shipping the tools
>I ordered, not what LV happens to charge for shipping 'em. I can buy
>a 1/2" Sweetheart chisel fer $39 on Amazon, $34 at LV. Only prob is,
>LV wants $8 fer shipping fer that particular chisel. I wanted to
>order one Narex chisel and one Sweetheart chisel. LV wanted to charge
>me $8 each fer shipping. That's $16 fer a box w/ 2 chisels. The same
>box they shipped one chisel in and a box that could have easily held
>10-20 chisels. You do the math. Myself? I know when I'm being
>ripped off.
>Bottom line, Amazon will ship fer free after $49. I'm at
>$40-something fer tha pull-saw. If I don't need some kinda big $$$$
>special order chisel, I can make $49 easy.
>nb --fixed income


The web link shows the shipping charges quite clearly.
Sorry about any mis-understandings with the phone rep.
I suspect that it is a very rare thing with LV.
Look for their free-shipping events - 4 or 5 times per year -
$ 40. minimum order usually.
John T.

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 2:31:30 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> I bought a Narex paring chisel in 1/4". I figure it should do fer any
> corner cleaning I need on 1/2" finger joints. So, I plan on 1/2"
> finger joints made with a Japanese pull saw and cleaning up any cruddy
> corners with the paring chisel.
>
> Howzabout those 1/2" flats on the bottom of finger slots? I see how a
> paring chisel cleans out corners and such, but what about chiseling
> the sqr bottom of a finger joint. Izzat a different type of chisel
> used to cut the flats between the 2 saw kerfs? If so, what kind?
>
>
> ____ ____
> | |
> kerf--->| |<----kerf
> |___|
> ^
> |__ FLAT
>
>
>
>
> nb --new to WW terminology


Then there is sharpening them to 15degrees rather than 25degrees.

I got mine from Ebay and wonder why I waited so long to get one (I now have 1/4, 3/8/, 1/2, and 3/4. Just watch what you are buying.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 00:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Friday, April 29, 2016 at 10:36:22 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
>
>> Until then, I spend what I can afford w/o buying junk. ;)
>
>You don't have to buy junk, but you should know there is a real line in the sand when it comes to tool steel and its utility use.
>
>Chisels are made from just about every kind of steel, depending on the maker and their specs. But the real story to steel is its designed uses and its heat treatment when annealing/tempering. I am a confessed steel junky, not as bad as I once was... but still... good steel makes me happy.
>
>LN's A1 is no more than "OK". For the money you spend, they should be great, not just good. My personal experience with them wasn't great. Most of your air hardening steels such as A1, O1, etc., aren't that good at holding an edge but were developed (in the case of A1, in Japan) for tool/die work that required good abrasion resistance and toughness. I like O1 for cutting tools more than A1, but of the three I like D2 best and have purchased several cutting tools with in D2 and its finer carbides hold and edge better (when properly treated) than most other tool steel. I really like D2, but it is too hard for most to sharpen.
>
>BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworking:
>http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx
>
>So what to do? You can go to the best steel such as the Crucible metals or the newer high speed tools that use M2, etc. and give away a pay check per chisel, or you can compromise.
>
>When I started doing woodwork in a shop 40+ years ago, all the chisels were 1095, 1084, and some of the heavy "slicks" were 5200. A few of the chisels I used later had extra vanadium in their formula, but were still just carbon steels.
>
>I hate to sound so pedestrian, but they worked just fine. The old chisels were softer than I liked being hardened only to about 55 or so on the Rockwell scale, but that also made them easy to sharpen, hone and touch up.
>
>There are good values on these chisels out there if as pointed out before you do some scouting on your own. For example:
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Craftsman-wood-chisels-/131794992622?hash=item1eaf97fdee:g:sjsAAOSw3mpXISZa
>
>or
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-wood-chisels-Buck-Bros-Dunlap-/131794991210?hash=item1eaf97f86a:g:TbIAAOSw4hdXISeL
>
>These types of chisels can do the work you want and you can probably get them at a good price. Might take a few tries, but then again it might not.
>
>I understand the money crunch as much as anyone, and I don't think you should deny yourself the fun of using a sharp chisel (even if you have to touch it up more than the more expensive models), one that was made for a specific job. By the way, a paring chisel is a great choice for the work you described, but you should know that if you are only working on material 1/2" thick, a butt chisel with the bevel eased back a bit on the edge will work just fine.
>
>The chisels to stay away from no matter how tempting are the new Buck Brothers, and in that line nothing newer than about 25 years old. No Sears Companion line, although I have been pleased with utility value of their old round handled butt chisel line. No generic "Sheffield brand" which are now sold as a brand, not as a particular steel product. No Harbor Freight. No off brands that are poorly milled and poorly finished.
>
>One last thing, check this out for a ton of really valuable information and some good opinions:
>
>http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?162740-First-Bench-Chisels-Advice-Needed
>
>Good luck!

Thanks for all of that (saved), Robert. How does one go about
determining what one is buying? Obviously expensive doesn't mean
good. One would think LN would be pretty decent, given that their
prices are in the Festoolsphere.

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 9:49:10 AM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

> The A2, etc, numbering system comes from the AISI by way of
> the SAE. Apparently the AISI started a list sometime in the
> late 1940s (it's not in my 1948 Machinery's Handbook), assigning
> the numbers in sequence, but never actually writing a spec for
> them. When the SAE took over, I'm guessing they either thought
> A1 was obsolete, or couldn't figure out what it was intended
> to be, so they started at A2.
>=20
> John

At this point, who knows? There are so many steels out there being used fo=
r everything one can imagine it is silly. I used to read a lot about it, b=
ut finally just lost interest.=20

BLADEFORUMS is a place where makers and enthusiasts argue steel, manufactur=
ers, properties, designations, names and country of origins all day long, e=
very day.

Biting issues such as "does 440c perform as well as 9crMov?"

And is "S110v less brittle if cryo-quenched for an extended period"

Along with "154cm v. S30V, you decide after forging yourself which has bett=
er end results". Of course that is followed by the neanderthals that scream=
that since 1095 was good enough for their grandfathers, it is good enough =
for them. Answered by the folks that insert their own favorite steel into =
the discussion and question why we wouldn't use a better product if it was =
readily available.

They argue on and on about steel designations, its properties, the accuracy=
of the mills that make them, the "equivalent" steels made in other countri=
es to match our standards and their respective differences, and then compar=
e performance of each. It is common for a ABS Bladesmith to find a steel h=
e likes, then try his best to master it for a cutting tool, and when master=
ed become his trademark steel.

A few years ago they were competing to find out the weirdest things about c=
ommon steels, all in fun. That was a treasure trove as to be in the discus=
sion you had to cite your source, and not just Google. I found out that S3=
0V (a great knife steel!) is actually a steel developed in Sweden for the s=
having razor industry. Learned that D2 was developed in the late 40s for h=
eavy die stamping forms such as the auto industry that was using it for doo=
r, trunk and hood stamps. Its abrasion and corrosion resistance led to som=
eone experimenting with it as a cutting steel. One guy claimed (and backed =
it up to the satisfaction of the group) that certain American shock absorbe=
r makers were using a low RC O1 as the rods in their product. They got a l=
etter from one of he manufacturers that confirmed it! And while they had be=
en making woodturning tools from the round O1 stock in shock absorbers for =
years, the guys that make woodturning tools had no idea it was likely O1.

Too many steels now, too many designations, and too many renames and relist=
ings. I don't really see how anyone could keep up with it all accurately.

Robert=20

notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>You still haven't answered my question. A butt chisel or "bench"
>chisel? Is there a difference? Lee Valley shows a Veritas® bench
>chisel doing precisely what I need, but I don't have $70 to blow ona
>single 1/2" chisel:
>
>http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69619&cat=1,41504

Rather than playing the '1 chissel at a time' game why not just get a
set of good BENCH chissels and go from there?

http://www.amazon.com/Narex-Imperial-Cabinetmaker-863251-863253/dp/B0113MN4T2/

If you insist on only buing a 1/2" (bench or butt) chissel to clean
out a 1/2" box joint you're going to wish you'd had gotten a 3/8"
instead.

Jess sayin'...

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in news:dof6oeFlng0U2
@mid.individual.net:

>
> I bought a Narex paring chisel in 1/4". I figure it should do fer any
> corner cleaning I need on 1/2" finger joints. So, I plan on 1/2"
> finger joints made with a Japanese pull saw and cleaning up any cruddy
> corners with the paring chisel.
>
> Howzabout those 1/2" flats on the bottom of finger slots? I see how a
> paring chisel cleans out corners and such, but what about chiseling
> the sqr bottom of a finger joint. Izzat a different type of chisel
> used to cut the flats between the 2 saw kerfs? If so, what kind?

Hmmm, I wouldn't have recommended getting a paring chisel
for the first chisel - you can make paring cuts with a
bench chisel, but it's usually not a good idea to pound
on a paring chisel with a mallet.

Anyway, to remove the wood between the fingers, you basically
go straight down with the chisel, going half way thru from one
side and then from the other. Ideally your kerfs are precise,
and if it's a half inch spacing then you use a half inch chisel
In practice, if you're even a little narrow the chisel will
bind, and you'll end up using a narrower one, then paring the
sides to the right width. However, it's easier to keep every
thing straight if there's some overlap (i.e. two cuts of 3/8
to make 1/2 rather than two of 1/4).

You can use a paring chisel, either hitting it with the butt
of your hand, or gently with a mallet, but a bevel edge
bench chisel would be the more suitable tool. You'll want
to take out chips to make a V groove by first making a
vertical cut on your line, then an angle cut in the waste,
and repeating until you're close to the middle. Then turn
over and do the same from the other side.

John

Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>>I'm retired and on a fixed income and right now, $$$$ is in short
>>supply. Yet I still wanna buy good tools. Solve that dilemma and
>>I'll invite you over fer dinner. ;)
>
> Caviar tool-taste on a sardine budget?

Wanting to buy good tools isn't "caviar taste". We all know
(or should) that buying a crappy tool just means you have to
buy it over again when it fails.

It seems to me notbob is doing the right thing in looking for
decent quality at a fair price, and filling the tool cabinet
a bit at a time.

John

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I also acquired an old backsaw from a cheapo mitre saw set. It's all
> rusty, but I got plenty of wet/dry.

How old? And how rusty?

In many cases, rather than spending effort polishing up an
old saw, just using it to cut wood will remove the surface
rust and leave a nice patina.

What you really want to worry about is if it's sharp. If
it's fairly modern, it's probably made from an induction-
hardened steel that will resist sharpening, but if it's
older it would be worth grabbing a saw file and sharpening
it. Ideally you'd have a saw vise to hold it, but you can
clamp it between a couple of boards. There's a knack to
saw sharpening, but it's not that hard to get it.

John

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> LN's A1 is no more than "OK". For the money you spend, they should be
> great, not just good. My personal experience with them wasn't great.
> Most of your air hardening steels such as A1, O1, etc., aren't that
> good at holding an edge but were developed (in the case of A1, in
> Japan) for tool/die work that required good abrasion resistance and
> toughness. I like O1 for cutting tools more than A1, but of the three
> I like D2 best and have purchased several cutting tools with in D2 and
> its finer carbides hold and edge better (when properly treated) than
> most other tool steel. I really like D2, but it is too hard for most
> to sharpen.
>
> BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine
> Woodworking:
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx

An interesting opinion (I assume you meant "A2" rather than
"A1", since A1 doesn't seem to exist). I have always understood
that high chromium steels are basically impossibly to sharpen
on normal stones, and can only be ground.

I also note that Ron Hock, who has some reputation in the field
of tool blades, favors A2 and O1 over other steels.
http://www.hocktools.com/tech-info/o1-vs-a2.html

According to the link you cited, FWW rated the LN chisels "best
western style", which doesn't exactly sound like "meh". I'd
guess LN selected the steel they use to have a good tradeoff
between durability and ease of sharpening (I looked for my copy
of that issue of FWW to see if there was more detail, but as
usual it seems the issue I want is missing from the stack).

I do have a set of the LN chisels. I save them for fine work,
so I can't really speak to their durability. I have a set of
old Marples for day-to-day use.

Incidenly, notbob should be happy to know FWW rated the Narex
brand "best value".

John

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:07:43 AM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:
>
>> An interesting opinion (I assume you meant "A2" rather than
>> "A1", since A1 doesn't seem to exist). I have always understood
>> that high chromium steels are basically impossibly to sharpen
>> on normal stones, and can only be ground.
>
> I DID mean A2, thanks for the catch. But you should probably tell
> these guys to knock it off:
>
> http://www.steelss.com/Tool-steel/a1.html

Well, that got me curious. Those guys might be refering to
303 stainless, since their spec has a lot of nickel and 303
stainless is also known as "A1" in someone's numbering system.

The A2, etc, numbering system comes from the AISI by way of
the SAE. Apparently the AISI started a list sometime in the
late 1940s (it's not in my 1948 Machinery's Handbook), assigning
the numbers in sequence, but never actually writing a spec for
them. When the SAE took over, I'm guessing they either thought
A1 was obsolete, or couldn't figure out what it was intended
to be, so they started at A2.

John

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On 2016-05-02, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> As KRW says, use veneered particle board. Koa will cost you waaaaaay
>> more than your chisels:-)
>
> I've read baltic birch is a good tonewood and is often used for guitar
> amp enclosures.

Is this an amp with speakers, or just a head? If it's
just a head, it doesn't much matter what you make it
from, as long as it looks good.

If it has speakers, yeah, you probably want to choose
materials that won't affect the sound, or at least not
in ways you don't want.

John

On 1 May 2016 21:57:03 GMT, notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2016-05-01, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworking:
>>>http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx
>
>I thought the article raved about "LN" (I'm assuming Lie-Nielsen)
>chisels, although I didn't read the entire article (gotta join).
>
>> Thanks for all of that (saved), Robert.
>
>Likewise. Great info.
>
>I have this Narex paring chisel in 1/4":
>
>http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=71290&cat=1,41504
>
>Seems like everyone is selling a different brand, yet not both of the
>two things I need ('zuki saw + 3/8" bench chisel). Is that Grizzly
>Japanese wannabe (not Matsumura) any good? It's still under $20.

I was at Highland, looking at chisels, last Wednesday but didn't buy
anything - confused (too many choices ;-). I'll probably be back
Thursday (have to be in the area to see a surgeon about a scary-sharp
knife). I'll probably look again.
>
>I figure the Narex paring chisel will do the job, I jes need a 3/8"
>"bench"(?) chisel to "cut" the wood slots from both sides. I'm
>looking at coping saws, too.

Try Highland and if you're ever in Atlanta, it's an awesome store.
They carry the whole line of green tools, in the store, too. ;-)

>I also acquired an old backsaw from a cheapo mitre saw set. It's all
>rusty, but I got plenty of wet/dry.

My miter saw isn't all that cheap but it's not a backsaw. I don't use
it much anymore.
>
>Right now, I gotta order some parts fer my old Workmate 225.

I think I have that model. It's pretty battle scarred, too. Not sure
where it is, though.

>Thnx fer all the great info. ;)

On 2016-04-28, Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote:

> ____ ____
> | |
> kerf--->| |<----kerf
> \___/
> ^
> |__ kerf
>
> U musta fergot bout a coping saw 2 remove tha majority of tha waste.

I forgot nada.

I've seen a coping saw used, on youtube. I kinda wanted to stay away
from that option. I think I might have a jewelers coping saw or I may
have given it to a pretty girl I was hitting on. Too old to recall.
I'll check.

You still haven't answered my question. A butt chisel or "bench"
chisel? Is there a difference? Lee Valley shows a Veritas® bench
chisel doing precisely what I need, but I don't have $70 to blow ona
single 1/2" chisel:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69619&cat=1,41504

nb

On 2016-04-28, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> The 1/2 inch Narex bevel edge is 12 bucks US.
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504
> John T.

Thanks, John.

I was trying to get a purchase price up to "free shipping" on Amazon,
as Lee Valley Tools is pretty cool, but!!....they insist on charging
shipping based on the purchase of a single chisel.

IOW, you wanna buy 3 chisels and Lee will charge $8 shipping per
chisel, not put all three chisels in the same box and charge shipping
fer the weight of one box. Believe me. I called and asked.

I bought a single Narex 1/4" paring chisel from Lee. The box woulda
easily held 20+ chisels, yet they wanted to charge shipping fer ea
chisel I may have purchased. Sorry, but I prefer not to be chiseled!
(snork) ;)

nb

On 2016-04-28, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Lee Valley shipping charges are based on the dollar value
> of the order - period. <except for a surcharge for oversize>
> It has always been this way.
> They began as a " mail order company " ...
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/HelpShippingReturns.aspx?pb=1#ShippingCharges

Gee, too bad yer not the LV rep I talked to on the phone.

I thought I would be charged by the actual cost of shipping the tools
I ordered, not what LV happens to charge for shipping 'em. I can buy
a 1/2" Sweetheart chisel fer $39 on Amazon, $34 at LV. Only prob is,
LV wants $8 fer shipping fer that particular chisel. I wanted to
order one Narex chisel and one Sweetheart chisel. LV wanted to charge
me $8 each fer shipping. That's $16 fer a box w/ 2 chisels. The same
box they shipped one chisel in and a box that could have easily held
10-20 chisels. You do the math. Myself? I know when I'm being
ripped off.

Bottom line, Amazon will ship fer free after $49. I'm at
$40-something fer tha pull-saw. If I don't need some kinda big $$$$
special order chisel, I can make $49 easy.

nb --fixed income

On 2016-04-28, Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote:

> Rather than playing the '1 chissel at a time' game why not just get a
> set of good BENCH chissels and go from there?

Can you say "money"?

I'm happy you can afford whole "sets". I cannot.

I'm retired and on a fixed income and right now, $$$$ is in short
supply. Yet I still wanna buy good tools. Solve that dilemma and
I'll invite you over fer dinner. ;)

nb

On 2016-04-28, John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> Anyway, to remove the wood between the fingers, you basically
> go straight down with the chisel, going half way thru from one
> side and then from the other. Ideally your kerfs are precise,
> and if it's a half inch spacing then you use a half inch chisel
> In practice, if you're even a little narrow the chisel will
> bind, and you'll end up using a narrower one, then paring the
> sides to the right width. However, it's easier to keep every
> thing straight if there's some overlap (i.e. two cuts of 3/8
> to make 1/2 rather than two of 1/4).

I agree. This jives with the U2B videos I've seen. I understand
about the paring chisels. That why I bought a 1/4" paring chisel.
It's that "going half way thru from one side and then from the other",
chisel that I'm looking for. Heck, I'll go 3/8" fer a 1/2" joint, no
problem. The U2B vid I watched also did that.

> bench chisel would be the more suitable tool.

Thank you! Was that so hard? ;)

nb

On 2016-04-28, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sorry about any mis-understandings with the phone rep. I suspect
> that it is a very rare thing with LV.

I sincerely hope so, cuz I really do like LV.

> Look for their free-shipping events - 4 or 5 times per year - $ 40.
> minimum order usually.

Been there, saw that. Jes last week, in fact. Unfortunately, I
didn't have any disposable income until this week, when they are not
having a "free-shipping event". Life sucks, then you die. ;)

nb

On 2016-04-29, Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote:

> Perhaps you need to prioritize your hobbies:

Perhaps I need to repair my kitchen.

> Caviar tool-taste on a sardine budget?

Yes. Quite the burden. (sigh)

> Change your nym to notable or notwilling.

Nah. Too exp[a|e]nsive. ;)

nb

On 2016-04-29, John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> It seems to me notbob is doing the right thing in looking for
> decent quality at a fair price, and filling the tool cabinet
> a bit at a time.

Thanks, John. That's precisely what I'm trying to do.

I figure if I can get my workmate fixed and get a Nippon pull saw, I
can make the drawer box I need, plus learn something in the process.

I'm trying to do it for the least expense, yet I know I'll be doing
more drawers before I'm through. Prolly a face frame, also. My buddy
--with a lotta pwr tools-- will be up here in another month, then
things will change. He has a table saw, dado sets, a router plus
table, etc. All the stuff I need to knock these babies out by the
score. Until then, I spend what I can afford w/o buying junk. ;)

nb

On 2016-05-01, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>>BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworking:
>>http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx

I thought the article raved about "LN" (I'm assuming Lie-Nielsen)
chisels, although I didn't read the entire article (gotta join).

> Thanks for all of that (saved), Robert.

Likewise. Great info.

I have this Narex paring chisel in 1/4":

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=71290&cat=1,41504

Seems like everyone is selling a different brand, yet not both of the
two things I need ('zuki saw + 3/8" bench chisel). Is that Grizzly
Japanese wannabe (not Matsumura) any good? It's still under $20.

I figure the Narex paring chisel will do the job, I jes need a 3/8"
"bench"(?) chisel to "cut" the wood slots from both sides. I'm
looking at coping saws, too.

I also acquired an old backsaw from a cheapo mitre saw set. It's all
rusty, but I got plenty of wet/dry.

Right now, I gotta order some parts fer my old Workmate 225.

Thnx fer all the great info. ;)

nb

On 2016-05-01, graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> When you try your first dovetails, use a soft wood and don't use oak!

I've heard so many opinions, it's like ....well, ya' know..... ;)

> I was taught by a German and they always cut the pins first.

I've seen that technique on U2B. Some guy w/ a jillion dollar backsaw
sez cut pins first, then use finished pins and a pencil to lay out
slots (mortises?).

> I did that for a red oak box and had a helluva job cutting the tails
> in that coarse-grained hard wood. I should have cut the tails first,
> English style.

I would, eventually, like to make a cabinet spkr enclosure for a tube
amplifier head. I once had a Mesa Boogie ina dove-tailed cabinet made
of koa wood. Gorgeous. :)

nb

On 2016-05-02, graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> As KRW says, use veneered particle board. Koa will cost you waaaaaay
> more than your chisels:-)

I've read baltic birch is a good tonewood and is often used for guitar
amp enclosures.

BTW, it's officially a "Rock n' Roll amp", now. I spilled beer on it,
last night. No real harm done, but I'm gonna make any future cabs
"beer proof". ;)

nb

On 2016-05-05, John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> If it has speakers, yeah, you probably want to choose
> materials that won't affect the sound, or at least not
> in ways you don't want.

I plan ona spkr only cabinet. Probably jes one spkr, but the cab will
be set up to accommodate different spkrs, easily changed out. Why buy
a combo when heads are cheaper? Then change the spkr in the cabinet
to one that fits the style of playing. That's my plan. ;)

nb

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:07:43 AM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

> An interesting opinion (I assume you meant "A2" rather than
> "A1", since A1 doesn't seem to exist). I have always understood
> that high chromium steels are basically impossibly to sharpen
> on normal stones, and can only be ground.

I DID mean A2, thanks for the catch. But you should probably tell these gu=
ys to knock it off:

http://www.steelss.com/Tool-steel/a1.html

=20
> I also note that Ron Hock, who has some reputation in the field
> of tool blades, favors A2 and O1 over other steels.
> http://www.hocktools.com/tech-info/o1-vs-a2.html

Absolutely no doubt. Some of the best lathe turning tools (setting aside t=
he powdered Crucible metals) have been shop made from O1.


> According to the link you cited, FWW rated the LN chisels "best
> western style", which doesn't exactly sound like "meh". I'd
> guess LN selected the steel they use to have a good tradeoff
> between durability and ease of sharpening (I looked for my copy
> of that issue of FWW to see if there was more detail, but as
> usual it seems the issue I want is missing from the stack).

Middle of the pack to me, qualifies as "meh". Remember, I made it clear I =
love my steels. I can take a lesser steel for a lesser price, but a higher=
priced chisel with a premium steel needs to have that steel pushed to its =
limits.

From the FWW article, verbatim:

"Its mid-range length is great for controlled detail work, yet its blade is=
long enough for moderate-range paring. The A2 blade's durability found a s=
pot in the middle of the pack, but in spite of this, the ergonomics prevail=
ed. $50."

> I do have a set of the LN chisels. I save them for fine work,
> so I can't really speak to their durability. =20

Certainly your experience may be different, but my personal experience alon=
g with their "middle of the pack" comment after testing reflect on another.=
Like you I wasn't interested enough to find the magazine with the exact ar=
ticle, so their summary made the point in just a few sentences.

Always (and this is where the LNs excel) is the consideration of how comfor=
table a chisel is to use. I have had some nice chisels over the years that=
had nice steel, but were absolutely miserable to use for anything but a bu=
tt chisel. Ergos all wrong, contours of the handles wrong, unbalanced in t=
he hand, etc., bad enough that they made the nice steel a waste of time. I=
never could figure out how to rehandle them, so they became beaters.

=20
> Incidenly, notbob should be happy to know FWW rated the Narex
> brand "best value".

I hope if he tries them he lets us know. They seem to get a lot of good re=
views, but always with the caveat "especially for the price" or "can't beat=
these for the price" etc. The good news is you can buy them one or two at=
a time to try them out.

Robert

[email protected] wrote:
>>> The 1/2 inch Narex bevel edge is 12 bucks US.
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504
>>> John T.
>> Thanks, John.
>> I was trying to get a purchase price up to "free shipping" on Amazon,
>> as Lee Valley Tools is pretty cool, but!!....they insist on charging
>> shipping based on the purchase of a single chisel.
>> IOW, you wanna buy 3 chisels and Lee will charge $8 shipping per
>> chisel, not put all three chisels in the same box and charge shipping
>> fer the weight of one box. Believe me. I called and asked.
>> I bought a single Narex 1/4" paring chisel from Lee. The box woulda
>> easily held 20+ chisels, yet they wanted to charge shipping fer ea
>> chisel I may have purchased. Sorry, but I prefer not to be chiseled!
>> (snork) ;)
>> nb
>
>
> Lee Valley shipping charges are based on the dollar value
> of the order - period. <except for a surcharge for oversize>
> It has always been this way.
> They began as a " mail order company " ...
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/HelpShippingReturns.aspx?pb=1#ShippingCharges
>
> John T.
>

Order at "The Woodworking Shows", if available in your area, and get
free shipping.

On 04/28/2016 6:05 PM, notbob wrote:
...

> I'm retired and on a fixed income and right now, $$$$ is in short
> supply. Yet I still wanna buy good tools. Solve that dilemma and
> I'll invite you over fer dinner. ;)

If you're not in a hurry, watch eBay for estate clearance stuff and the
like...not infrequently there is really good quality stuff for minimal
prices but you've got to be able to discern what is and isn't and have
the patience to wait for it...

Or, as another posted, yard sales and the like are essentially the same
process on foot with advantages (get to see it first) and disadvantages
(do have to go do the legwork to get there while there's still something
to be seen).

--

On 01/05/2016 3:57 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-05-01, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworking:
>>> http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/bench-chisels.aspx
>
> I thought the article raved about "LN" (I'm assuming Lie-Nielsen)
> chisels, although I didn't read the entire article (gotta join).
>
>> Thanks for all of that (saved), Robert.
>
> Likewise. Great info.
>
> I have this Narex paring chisel in 1/4":
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=71290&cat=1,41504
>
> Seems like everyone is selling a different brand, yet not both of the
> two things I need ('zuki saw + 3/8" bench chisel). Is that Grizzly
> Japanese wannabe (not Matsumura) any good? It's still under $20.
>
> I figure the Narex paring chisel will do the job, I jes need a 3/8"
> "bench"(?) chisel to "cut" the wood slots from both sides. I'm
> looking at coping saws, too.
>
> I also acquired an old backsaw from a cheapo mitre saw set. It's all
> rusty, but I got plenty of wet/dry.
>
> Right now, I gotta order some parts fer my old Workmate 225.
>
> Thnx fer all the great info. ;)
>
> nb
>
When you try your first dovetails, use a soft wood and don't use oak! I
was taught by a German and they always cut the pins first. I did that
for a red oak box and had a helluva job cutting the tails in that
coarse-grained hard wood. I should have cut the tails first, English style.
Graham

On 01/05/2016 5:49 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-05-01, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When you try your first dovetails, use a soft wood and don't use oak!
>
> I've heard so many opinions, it's like ....well, ya' know..... ;)
>
>> I was taught by a German and they always cut the pins first.
>
> I've seen that technique on U2B. Some guy w/ a jillion dollar backsaw
> sez cut pins first, then use finished pins and a pencil to lay out
> slots (mortises?).
>
>> I did that for a red oak box and had a helluva job cutting the tails
>> in that coarse-grained hard wood. I should have cut the tails first,
>> English style.
>
> I would, eventually, like to make a cabinet spkr enclosure for a tube
> amplifier head. I once had a Mesa Boogie ina dove-tailed cabinet made
> of koa wood. Gorgeous. :)
>
> nb
>
>
As KRW says, use veneered particle board. Koa will cost you waaaaaay
more than your chisels:-)
Graham

notbob wrote:

>
> I plan ona spkr only cabinet. Probably jes one spkr, but the cab will
> be set up to accommodate different spkrs, easily changed out. Why buy
> a combo when heads are cheaper? Then change the spkr in the cabinet
> to one that fits the style of playing. That's my plan. ;)
>
> nb
>

You're probably not going to like that idea after you change out a
speaker the first time. Go for a good speaker right off the bat and
rely on your fingers, your guitar settings and your amp EQ/gain, etc. to
get the sound you want for a particular style.

--
-Mike-
[email protected]

>
>> The 1/2 inch Narex bevel edge is 12 bucks US.
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504
>> John T.
>

>Thanks, John.
>I was trying to get a purchase price up to "free shipping" on Amazon,
>as Lee Valley Tools is pretty cool, but!!....they insist on charging
>shipping based on the purchase of a single chisel.
>IOW, you wanna buy 3 chisels and Lee will charge $8 shipping per
>chisel, not put all three chisels in the same box and charge shipping
>fer the weight of one box. Believe me. I called and asked.
>I bought a single Narex 1/4" paring chisel from Lee. The box woulda
>easily held 20+ chisels, yet they wanted to charge shipping fer ea
>chisel I may have purchased. Sorry, but I prefer not to be chiseled!
>(snork) ;)
>nb



Lee Valley shipping charges are based on the dollar value
of the order - period. <except for a surcharge for oversize>
It has always been this way.
They began as a " mail order company " ...

http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/HelpShippingReturns.aspx?pb=1#ShippingCharges

John T.

notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2016-04-28, Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Rather than playing the '1 chissel at a time' game why not just get a
>> set of good BENCH chissels and go from there?
>
>Can you say "money"?
>
>I'm happy you can afford whole "sets". I cannot.

Perhaps you need to prioritize your hobbies:
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>

>I'm retired and on a fixed income and right now, $$$$ is in short
>supply. Yet I still wanna buy good tools. Solve that dilemma and
>I'll invite you over fer dinner. ;)

Caviar tool-taste on a sardine budget?
Change your nym to notable or notwilling.

dilemma solved!

notbob <[email protected]> writes:
>On 2016-04-28, Spalted Walt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Rather than playing the '1 chissel at a time' game why not just get a
>> set of good BENCH chissels and go from there?
>
>Can you say "money"?
>
>I'm happy you can afford whole "sets". I cannot.
>
>I'm retired and on a fixed income and right now, $$$$ is in short
>supply. Yet I still wanna buy good tools. Solve that dilemma and
>I'll invite you over fer dinner. ;)

Go to your neighborhood flea market this weekend.

What's for dinner?

notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I bought a Narex paring chisel in 1/4". I figure it should do fer any
>corner cleaning I need on 1/2" finger joints. So, I plan on 1/2"
>finger joints made with a Japanese pull saw and cleaning up any cruddy
>corners with the paring chisel.
>
>Howzabout those 1/2" flats on the bottom of finger slots? I see how a
>paring chisel cleans out corners and such, but what about chiseling
>the sqr bottom of a finger joint. Izzat a different type of chisel
>used to cut the flats between the 2 saw kerfs? If so, what kind?
>
>
> ____ ____
> | |
>kerf--->| |<----kerf
> |___|
> ^
> |__ FLAT
>
>
>
>
>nb --new to WW terminology

____ ____
| |
kerf--->| |<----kerf
\___/
^
|__ kerf

U musta fergot bout a coping saw 2 remove tha majority of tha waste.
Then u clean up tha bottom an corners wid ur scary sharp chissel.

>
>You still haven't answered my question. A butt chisel or "bench"
>chisel? Is there a difference? Lee Valley shows a Veritas® bench
>chisel doing precisely what I need, but I don't have $70 to blow ona
>single 1/2" chisel:
>http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69619&cat=1,41504
>nb



The 1/2 inch Narex bevel edge is 12 bucks US.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504
John T.