Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
this forum.
More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
drafting.
I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
engineer
who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
who
made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
publication
by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software. I
may give it a
try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
I can
hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
Bill
"charlieb" wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
> If you make things that work - and don't worry about
> what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.
>
> If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
> or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
> - you're probably and artist.
>
> If you THINK you make things that work
> and
> THINK you make things that are pleasing
> to the eye
> neither of which may actually be true
> - you're probably an architect.
>
> Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
> who can add or fix what each of the others
> overlooked - or ignored.
------------------------------------------------------
Reminds me of the difference between engineers, salesmen and
purchasing agents.
==============================
ENGINEERS
SALESMAN
PURCHASING AGENTS
An engineer is a person who knows a great deal about very
little, learning more and more about less and less until
they finally know practically everything about nothing.
A salesman, on the other hand, is a person who knows very
little about many things, and keeps learning less and less
about more and more until they know practically nothing
about everything.
A purchasing agent starts out knowing everything about
everything, but ends up knowing nothing about anything due
to his association with engineers and salesman.
==========================
Lew
On Oct 8, 4:34=A0pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> For a rule to be a good rule - it has to have
> at least one exception. =A0Kelly Johnson, who
> used Seymore Butts on his secret missions
> airline tickets, is suely an exception to the rules.
> Anyone whose job is in The Skunk Works HAS
> to be an exception - to probably EVERY rule.
Because many are aliens. Roswell offspring.
On Oct 8, 4:39=A0pm, John <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 7:53=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 8, 3:28=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > > > Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> > > > For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the popula=
tion of
> > > > this forum.
>
> > > I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of artist=
ry is
> > > desirable.
>
> > > Jeff
>
> > > --
> > > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> > > email : Username is amgron
> > > ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
>
> > The vision of an artist plus the discipline and learned foundation of
> > an engineer, makes for a Bauhaus full of stuff.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I think that you can be neither and still be a woodworker -- if the
> only things you make are from premade plans, then you aren't doing any
> design, and thus it's not engineering, and you aren't doing anything
> overly creative, so it's not really art. =A0If, on the other hand you do
> your own designs, and the design is both functional and asthetically
> pleasing, then you are an artist and an engineer.
>
> Seeing as most woodworkers make custom stuff, I would say most are
> both.
>
> John
I agree. The Come Up With Stuff and Make Stuff Work are, at some
level, what makes a woodworker.
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:03:02 -0400, the infamous "dadiOH"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Bill wrote:
>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>> population of this forum.
>
>I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning, others
>groove on the result. I like the result.
I'm a little of both, with no formal training in either, 'less you
count the architectural drawing class I had in 8th grade.
>> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
>> and drafting.
>
>A. Something simple = no plans
>
>B. Something more complex = "plans"
> 1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
> 2. Get yellow legal pad
> 3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
> 4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
> 5. Cut parts
> 6. Join parts
Ooh, Ooh! <waving hands> That's me, too!
--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 08:48:18 -0500, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Bill wrote:
>
>> I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help but
>> think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
>> design.
>> Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients?
>
>As with any tool, only to the neophyte.
>
>"Tools" certainly do influence the outcome of specific tasks, and
>therefore influence the collection of tasks that make up a piece.
>"Materials" do the same, arguably to an even greater extent.
And the artiste makes up the last third. Some can do extraordinary
work with the cheapest and worst tools, or the worst materials, so the
artistic bent can be stronger than a third.
>That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
>project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
>example. :)
Old Mikey? (See sig for comment.)
----------------------------------------------------------
* Michelangelo would have made ** Website Programming
* better time with a roller. ** http://diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------
On Oct 7, 9:50=C2=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
> > We need a like button on the wreck, just like in Facebook.
>
> Like! =C2=A0<g>
>
> BTW, you're well hidden on FB.
>
Strange, I just looked up my privacy settings and everyone should be
able to see me. And I am the only Luigi Zanasi on FB, "Luigi Dena
Ch'=C5=8F Zanasi", which also includes my Kaska First Nations Name, given
to me by an elder a few months ago.
I do have two other former? wreckers as friends (O'Deen & Groggy).
Luigi
Luigi Zanasi wrote:
> On Oct 7, 9:50 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>>> We need a like button on the wreck, just like in Facebook.
>> Like! <g>
>>
>> BTW, you're well hidden on FB.
>>
> Strange, I just looked up my privacy settings and everyone should be
> able to see me. And I am the only Luigi Zanasi on FB, "Luigi Dena
> Ch'Å Zanasi", which also includes my Kaska First Nations Name, given
> to me by an elder a few months ago.
>
> I do have two other former? wreckers as friends (O'Deen & Groggy).
>
> Luigi
Operator problem on this end ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:35:10 -0700, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Robatoy wrote:
>
>> I can't speak for 'most' woodworkers, but I seldom do anything
>> without
>> making a drawing first.
>
>I have been accused of not being able to find the bathroom without a
>blueprint.
A bit obsessive about it, are we, Lew?
---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)
Bill:
I was a trained draftsman in a previous life so I tend to plan most
projects to a certain extent. When I say "draftsman" I was trained
at a drafting table using drafting instruments of the day. I did get
some CAD training in later years but moved into some writing and
management jobs before I got a chance to use the CAD tools much.
Planning includes some sort of graphic representation of the project
and a list of materials. I currently keep some of my old drafting
tools near a small drafting table in the basement; and some of the
tools are in my workshop. Smaller projects are planned on a clipboard
in the shop. As projects become more complex, I resort to the
drafting equipment. Instead of vellum or mylar drawings I usually do
a scaled and fairly detailed layout or "shop sketch" on a sheet of 24"
or 30" poster board which is cheap and durable when I hang it on the
wall of the shop. I am artistic by nature but art and drafting are
two different disciplines. I sometimes say I do a half-a**'ed job at
both. When a board drawn shop sketch gets to the shop I refer to it
often, and modify it as needed. Sometimes the modifications reflect
my artistic side; sometimes I'm fixing screw-ups.
Had I come along a few years later, I would probably be using Sketch
Up or a CAD tool of some kind. While I consider CAD pretty
interesting, I would rather be using my time building, not learning
software. Contrary to some people's belief, a trained board draftsman
can put lines on paper (and move them) pretty fast. In my earlier
life we made a lot of design changes on a change order pad while
working with an aircraft technician in the hangar. Also, I would say
that about 50-70% of my projects get planned on the clipboard.
To summarize: planning to some level is essential to successful
projects. But don't let the planning methods override your
woodworking creativity. Visualize, think, sketch, make sawdust
RonB
On Oct 11, 12:32=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "diggerop" <toobusy@themoment> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...> "Swingman" <k...=
@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> an even greater extent.
>
>
>
> >> That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
> >> project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for a=
n
> >> example. :)
>
> >> --
> >>www.e-woodshop.net
> >> Last update: 10/22/08
> >> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> > He did that with SketchUp? =A0 =A0Wow! =A0 =A0 =A0; )
>
> Few people really know that.
then there is that DaVinci/Mona Lisa/Photoshop rumour..
On Oct 8, 3:28=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>
> > Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> > For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population=
of
> > this forum.
>
> I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of artistry i=
s
> desirable.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
The vision of an artist plus the discipline and learned foundation of
an engineer, makes for a Bauhaus full of stuff.
If you make things that work - and don't worry about
what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.
If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
- you're probably and artist.
If you THINK you make things that work
and
THINK you make things that are pleasing
to the eye
neither of which may actually be true
- you're probably an architect.
Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
who can add or fix what each of the others
overlooked - or ignored.
On Oct 6, 10:12=A0pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you make things that work - and don't worry about
> what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.
>
> If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
> or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
> - you're probably and artist.
>
> If you THINK you make things that work
> and
> THINK you make things that are pleasing
> to the eye
> neither of which may actually be true
> - you're probably an architect.
>
> Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
> who can add or fix what each of the others
> overlooked - or ignored.
We need a like button on the wreck, just like in Facebook.
Luigi
On Oct 6, 9:43=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population o=
f
> this forum.
>
> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
> drafting.
> I think I can draw better than people who can't. =A0; ) =A0 My dad was a =
civil
> engineer
> who made copious plans for "everything". =A0His buddy was =A0a civil engi=
neer
> who
> made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
> publication
> by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
> was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software. =
=A0I
> may give it a
> try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me=
.
> I can
> hardly wait <gulp>! =A0; )
>
> Bill
I can't speak for 'most' woodworkers, but I seldom do anything without
making a drawing first.
Where that drawing goes, or to what extent I develop it (3D) depends
on the project.
I draw 1 or 2 full size kitchens per week, some of those get the whole
3D photographic-grade rendering if the job and/or client warrants that
kind of hand-holding. Often they're just plan views to be sent to a
cabinet manufacturer for pricing.
Sometimes my drawings are my models to be machined directly from the
data they contain.
Those plan-type of drawings is all I need for countertop pricing as my
program gives lineal inches of edges, square feet of material and they
become a white-board for further instructions as I do the templating
on the actual job-site.
Drawings are tools.
Robatoy wrote:
> I can't speak for 'most' woodworkers, but I seldom do anything without
> making a drawing first.
> Those plan-type of drawings is all I need for countertop pricing as my
> program gives lineal inches of edges, square feet of material and they
> become a white-board for further instructions as I do the templating
> on the actual job-site.
Past few years I've gotten the same way. "Time" is such a big factor
that any of my time spent on drawing/planning generally pays for itself
two or three times over down the road - in cutting back on mistakes,
with scheduling where getting a thing done on "time", means the next guy
up can get his job done, and with waste and as in "... why the hell do
we have all those tubafours/tile/whatever left over?"
> Drawings are tools.
Probably the most important tool in the construction process ... in the
final analysis, lack of a detailed drawing/plan will _always_ end up
being the single most expensive item in the project.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
> this forum.
I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of artistry is
desirable.
Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net
Bill wrote:
> I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help but
> think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
> design.
> Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients?
As with any tool, only to the neophyte.
"Tools" certainly do influence the outcome of specific tasks, and
therefore influence the collection of tasks that make up a piece.
"Materials" do the same, arguably to an even greater extent.
That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
example. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"diggerop" <toobusy@themoment> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
an even greater extent.
>>
>> That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
>> project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
>> example. :)
>>
>> --
>> www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 10/22/08
>> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
> He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )
Few people really know that.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
>
> I added "materials" today... light wood finish. Neat-o! Later I went to
> it's "3-D Warehouse" to see if there
> was a vise.... Let's just say lots of folks got there before me. Pretty
> cool.
>
> http://sketchup.google.com if you haven't tried it yet. Start by watching
> some tutorials. It's a cools video game...I haven't yet figured out how
> to position the chair I downloaded (it's seems to want to live at the
> origin)
Typically when you download a file it simply follows your cursor around
until you click some where on the screen, then you can move it to where ever
you want. If it seems to want to be some where in particular it could be
that it has a Google Earth location. That may want to place it in a
specific location. I'm guessing here. Try down loading something else.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
> this forum.
>
> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
> drafting.
> I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
> engineer
> who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
> who
> made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
> publication
> by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
> was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software.
> I may give it a
> try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
> I can
> hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>
> Bill
Bill if you would like to see what you can do with Sketchup I can send you a
file of the bedroom furniture towers that I designed and posted pictures of
on a.p.b.w.
I have had formal drafting instruction when drawings were only done on a
drawing board. I never perused that profession but kept an interest in it
to help with my building projects. I have been using a CAD program of some
type since 1986. Up until last year I had used AutoCAD LT since 1997.
Sketchup is it for me now and I will probably never go back to the more
expensive CAD programs.
The investment to learn Sketchup is well worth your time and that time will
be less if you have any drafting back ground. Suddenly with Sketchup you
can draw in perspective 3D with very little effort with or with out CAD
experience.
One thing that is critical to remember is that you want to draw all of your
3D parts separately and then convert them into components. If you simply
draw lines and connect them they are very difficult to separate. If the
part you draw is a component you can easily move it and assemble your
project much like an erector set.
There are a few of us here that will be glad to help you with any questions
that you may have about Sketchup.
Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
competent program to design your projects.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help
>> but
>> think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
>> design.
>> Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients?
>
> As with any tool, only to the neophyte.
>
> "Tools" certainly do influence the outcome of specific tasks, and
> therefore influence the collection of tasks that make up a piece.
> "Materials" do the same, arguably to an even greater extent.
>
> That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
> project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
> example. :)
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )
"Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>> population of this forum.
>
> I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of
> artistry is desirable.
>
> Jeff
>
Escher and/or Escher in reverse?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 21:43:05 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
>this forum.
>
>More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
>drafting.
>I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
>engineer
>who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
>who
>made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
For some the planning and drawing portion of the project is an
enjoyable endeavor itself or at least part of the process as a whole,
for others it's a means to an end.
I'm definitely more on the artist side of things, even though I
studied to be an engineer and was terrible in art classes. I'll do a
drawing in sketchup to help me visualize, because I can think in 2D
easily enough but I have a harder time keeping everything straight in
3D. But I don't model everything, just enough so that I have a pretty
good idea of what needs to be done, and where I can start and how much
I can do that has to be done regardless of what comes next, and then
the saw dust starts to fly. Then I have something tangible to work
with along with my partial drawing. I like going into the shop
without knowing all the answers, so that I'm free to make changes as I
go along.
-Kevin
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:13:18 -0500, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Bill wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
>>> competent program to design your projects.
>>
>>
>> Way cool program.
>>
>> I posted my first result with SketchUp at
>> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking, as Subject: First SketchUp (pdf file),
>> in case anyone wants to see what you can do with it in an hour or so...
>>
>> I have a LOT to learn, but the potential is evident...
>
>Bill wrote:
> > pdf attached
>
><also posted on abpw>
>
>Excellent first effort ... take to heart what Leon said on the wRec
>about making component parts ... the secret to using SU effectively for
>woodworking projects.
>
>With regard to whether your proclivity is "artist" or "engineer",
>oftentimes you have no choice.
>
>Attached is a pdf of the SketchUp file I did last year during the
>planning stages of the South wall of a kitchen, and a photo of that
>recently finished South wall, 8 months later.
>
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.pdf
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.jpg
Cool. Question: Is there lighting above the hutch and oven cabinets?
Else why is there a gap there. It looks really odd to me.
Ever wish you'd gone with fumed QS white oak instead? That's the
kitchen which would make me drool. It's only "very nice" as is.
>A good illustration of what you can do with the free program,
>particularly when you have a client involved in the design and they
>actually end up getting what they saw during the planning stage.
>
>Makes for a happy client, and good referrals ....
Indeed. Nice segue to reality there, pard.
--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---
On Oct 8, 7:53=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 3:28=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > > Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> > > For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the populati=
on of
> > > this forum.
>
> > I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of artistry=
is
> > desirable.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > --
> > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> > email : Username is amgron
> > ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
>
> The vision of an artist plus the discipline and learned foundation of
> an engineer, makes for a Bauhaus full of stuff.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think that you can be neither and still be a woodworker -- if the
only things you make are from premade plans, then you aren't doing any
design, and thus it's not engineering, and you aren't doing anything
overly creative, so it's not really art. If, on the other hand you do
your own designs, and the design is both functional and asthetically
pleasing, then you are an artist and an engineer.
Seeing as most woodworkers make custom stuff, I would say most are
both.
John
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 21:43:05 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
>this forum.
>
>More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
>drafting.
>I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
>engineer
>who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
>who
>made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
>I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
>publication
>by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
>was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software. I
>may give it a
>try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
>I can
>hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>
>Bill
>
I'm a retired engineer. I can't design a round hole without creating
a Pro-E model of it first :-)
One time when our daughter was about 9 or 10 she needed a birdhouse
made for a school project. I asked what kind of birds are suppose to
live in it? How big will it need to be? Will it have a roof with a
peak or will it just have a single slope? She responded with "I don't
know but let's go to the shop start cuttin'." At that point I began
to wonder if she was mine :-)
Gordon Shumway
One positive thing about 'Cash for Clunkers' is that
it took thousands of Obama bumper stickers off the road.
Bill wrote:
>> Attached is a pdf of the SketchUp file I did last year during the
>> planning stages of the South wall of a kitchen, and a photo of that
>> recently finished South wall, 8 months later.
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.pdf
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.jpg
>>
>> A good illustration of what you can do with the free program, particularly
>> when you have a client involved in the design and they actually end up
>> getting what they saw during the planning stage.
>>
>> Makes for a happy client, and good referrals ....
>> www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 10/22/08
>> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
> That is darn impressive. Thank you for sharing it. I saved a copy to show
> my wife so she can see that I'm not just screwing around! ; )
Hell, if you want, I'll send you the entire kitchen SketchUp file ... it
is about 4.4MB, a heavy lift for many mail servers.
I also posted links in the past to some "dynamic component", kitchen
wall and base cabinets that you can change the dimensions of ... real
handy when fitting cabinets into a pre-existing space. I'll cehck my
server to see if they're still on line.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Bill wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
>> competent program to design your projects.
>
>
> Way cool program.
>
> I posted my first result with SketchUp at
> alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking, as Subject: First SketchUp (pdf file),
> in case anyone wants to see what you can do with it in an hour or so...
>
> I have a LOT to learn, but the potential is evident...
Bill wrote:
> pdf attached
<also posted on abpw>
Excellent first effort ... take to heart what Leon said on the wRec
about making component parts ... the secret to using SU effectively for
woodworking projects.
With regard to whether your proclivity is "artist" or "engineer",
oftentimes you have no choice.
Attached is a pdf of the SketchUp file I did last year during the
planning stages of the South wall of a kitchen, and a photo of that
recently finished South wall, 8 months later.
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.pdf
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.jpg
A good illustration of what you can do with the free program,
particularly when you have a client involved in the design and they
actually end up getting what they saw during the planning stage.
Makes for a happy client, and good referrals ....
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
> competent program to design your projects.
Way cool program.
I posted my first result with SketchUp at
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking, as Subject: First SketchUp (pdf file),
in case anyone wants to see what you can do with it in an hour or so...
I have a LOT to learn, but the potential is evident...
Bill
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
> this forum.
>
> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
> drafting.
> I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
> engineer
> who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
> who
> made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
> publication
> by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
> was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software.
> I may give it a
> try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
> I can
> hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>
I am neither, my method of building is to work out a design
mentally and when I think I have all the major points worked
out in my head, I start cutting and assembling. The details
just seem to work their self out as I go along.
I usually pick one or two functions of the piece at hand and
work out the sizing and proportions from there, this works
great for free standing furniture.
I tend to lean toward the utilitarian side and the designs aren't
overly complex to begin with.
My method of working has it downside of course, it will fail
miserably with kitchen cabinets, DAMHIKT.
There are places where planning and drawing it out is
essential to success.
Even on small run production items I will build one to the point of
dry assembly, knock it down and then make my patterns and
jigs. I dislike repetitive work, after about ten of something it
quits being fun and becomes labor and I avoid this kind of
work unless I'm trying to make a few quick $.
I have a love hate relationship with sketchup(damn does anyone know
how to turn off the snap to midpoint), but the hate part is
lessening the more I learn about SU, Goodluck.
basilisk
litteratuer wrote:
> Neither artist nor engineer. Ham-fisted amateur would be close to the
> truth.
>
> My growing up years were spent on a farm, - we were taught to use
> whatever we had available to construct something we needed, whether it
> be from wood or steel. Function took precedence over form.
> Still does for me.
> I think those early years helped me to attain the ability to visualise a
> number of ways to construct things with regard to what I have at hand, -
> ultimately selecting one and building it.
> I have never drawn up plans for anything. Doubtless there are those who
> would say that the appearance of my work makes that quite apparent : )
You wouldn't by chance be a Red Green fan, would you? :-)
--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
> Attached is a pdf of the SketchUp file I did last year during the
> planning stages of the South wall of a kitchen, and a photo of that
> recently finished South wall, 8 months later.
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.pdf
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.jpg
>
> A good illustration of what you can do with the free program, particularly
> when you have a client involved in the design and they actually end up
> getting what they saw during the planning stage.
>
> Makes for a happy client, and good referrals ....
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
That is darn impressive. Thank you for sharing it. I saved a copy to show
my wife so she can see that I'm not just screwing around! ; )
Bill
charlieb wrote:
> If you make things that work - and don't worry about
> what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.
>
> If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
> or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
> - you're probably and artist.
>
> If you THINK you make things that work
> and
> THINK you make things that are pleasing
> to the eye
> neither of which may actually be true
> - you're probably an architect.
>
> Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
> who can add or fix what each of the others
> overlooked - or ignored.
But how does Kelly Johnson fit into all of this? The SR-71 works fine as a
piece of abstract art and half a century later is still the fastest airplane
in the world, so it clearly works.
Phisherman wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 21:43:05 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>> population of this forum.
>>
>> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
>> and drafting.
>> I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a
>> civil engineer
>> who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil
>> engineer who
>> made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>>
>> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
>> publication
>> by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the
>> software was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the
>> (free) software. I may give it a
>> try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile
>> for me. I can
>> hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>
> I have degrees in Software Engineering, Mechanical Engineering,
> Chemistry, and paint with watercolor on paper. I guess I'm both and
> hopelessly addicted to woodworking and mountain hiking. I found
> myself flustered with most software programs and use an obsolete
> drafting table with T-square, French curves, and triangles. Certainly
> not against computers, but It works well for me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. If you want someone to build you a computer
I'm your guy. But if you want someone to use a computer to draw pictures
look elsewhere.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
>> competent program to design your projects.
>
>
> Way cool program.
>
I added "materials" today... light wood finish. Neat-o! Later I went to
it's "3-D Warehouse" to see if there
was a vise.... Let's just say lots of folks got there before me. Pretty
cool.
http://sketchup.google.com if you haven't tried it yet. Start by watching
some tutorials. It's a cools video game...I haven't yet figured out how to
position the chair I downloaded (it's seems to want to live at the origin)
...
Bill
Bill wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
>>> competent program to design your projects.
>>
>> Way cool program.
>>
>
>
> I added "materials" today... light wood finish. Neat-o! Later I went to
> it's "3-D Warehouse" to see if there
> was a vise.... Let's just say lots of folks got there before me. Pretty
> cool.
>
> http://sketchup.google.com if you haven't tried it yet. Start by watching
> some tutorials. It's a cools video game...I haven't yet figured out how to
> position the chair I downloaded (it's seems to want to live at the origin)
> ....
>
> Bill
>
>
I downloaded the videos that Google puts out at
http://sketchup.google.com/training/videos.html I found them invaluable
in introducing me to some of the power of the program.
As Leon and Swingman pointed out, one of the most important early tricks
is to make components early and often. It saves a ton of time later on
down the road.
Tanus
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
> publication
I made, virtually with SketchUp, the first workbench I was thinking about
building.
I posted 3 pdf files (front, side, bottom) in the thread Second SketchUp at
the usenet
group a.b.p.w.
The dimensions are 30" by 30" by 7'. Please let me know what comments you
may
have about the design, from what you can see.
My first thought is that I need to make the top a little longer than the
base so I can get in
one of those "reinforcing pieces" on each end (to better support the top).
By the way,
doing this exercise generated a number of questions in my mind (which is a
good thing!).
Any thoughts welcome!
Thanks,
Bill
dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>> population of this forum.
>
> I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
> others groove on the result. I like the result.
> _____________
>
>> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
>> and drafting.
>
> A. Something simple = no plans
>
> B. Something more complex = "plans"
> 1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
> 2. Get yellow legal pad
> 3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
> 4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
> 5. Cut parts
> 6. Join parts
As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in the
hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short learning
curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is a good
description. Many of us have found that we can replace your step 2 above
with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to scale" part. Where the
pencil was once suitably facile at doodling, I find now that it fails by
echoing too closely my faulty imagination and distorted sense of
proportions. (At the same time, "compellingly simple" quickly becomes
"frustratingly simplistic" when you start to wander far from the blocky
shapes that works so well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would
undertake to build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)
"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>>> population of this forum.
>>
>> I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
>> others groove on the result. I like the result.
>> _____________
>>
>>> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
>>> and drafting.
>>
>> A. Something simple = no plans
>>
>> B. Something more complex = "plans"
>> 1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
>> 2. Get yellow legal pad
>> 3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
>> 4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
>> 5. Cut parts
>> 6. Join parts
>
> As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in the
> hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short learning
> curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is a good
> description. Many of us have found that we can replace your step 2 above
> with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to scale" part. Where the
> pencil was once suitably facile at doodling, I find now that it fails by
> echoing too closely my faulty imagination and distorted sense of
> proportions. (At the same time, "compellingly simple" quickly becomes
> "frustratingly simplistic" when you start to wander far from the blocky
> shapes that works so well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would
> undertake to build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)
>
I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help but
think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
design.
Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients? That
is,
may the likes of SketchUp induce a subtle affect much like that of
industrialization?
Just a thought.
Bill
Bill wrote:
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>>>> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
>>>> population of this forum.
>>>
>>> I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
>>> others groove on the result. I like the result.
>>> _____________
>>>
>>>> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be
>>>> drawing and drafting.
>>>
>>> A. Something simple = no plans
>>>
>>> B. Something more complex = "plans"
>>> 1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
>>> 2. Get yellow legal pad
>>> 3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
>>> 4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
>>> 5. Cut parts
>>> 6. Join parts
>>
>> As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in
>> the hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short
>> learning curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is
>> a good description. Many of us have found that we can replace your
>> step 2 above with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to
>> scale" part. Where the pencil was once suitably facile at doodling,
>> I find now that it fails by echoing too closely my faulty
>> imagination and distorted sense of proportions. (At the same time,
>> "compellingly simple" quickly becomes "frustratingly simplistic"
>> when you start to wander far from the blocky shapes that works so
>> well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would undertake to
>> build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)
>
> I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't
> help but think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did
> to furniture design.
> Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients? That
> is,
> may the likes of SketchUp induce a subtle affect much like that of
> industrialization?
> Just a thought.
There's little danger, IMHO, that your taste in design will suddenly change
to match the tool. If that turns out to be the case, however, you will have
answered your own question: the engineer will accept the limitations of his
tools and environment while the artist will hold true to the ideal and its
exprssion. I was cutting 4-square blocky shapes on the tablesaw, planer, and
jointer long before Sketchup imposed its blocky world. If your taste is
toward free flowing faired curves inspired by and gracefully echoing the
figure and grain of carefully selected timbers, I doubt any design tool can
replace the touchy-feely eyeballs- and hands-on approach. Sketchup or other
CAD can still be the better pencil by overlaying a photo of the grain on the
part, but I would be very surprised to find that person comfortable with an
elaborate design process. I think that's the short answer: Sketchup appeals
to the engineer within. We are satisfied with the design when the
artist-within cringes only minimally at the outcome.
The common aesthetic of furniture and furnishings is dominated by straight
lines. I don't find this to be at odds with an artistic bent. Efficient and
appropriate use of material is itself an art.
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 21:43:05 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
>For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
>this forum.
>
>More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
>drafting.
>I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
>engineer
>who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
>who
>made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
>I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
>publication
>by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
>was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software. I
>may give it a
>try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
>I can
>hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>
>Bill
>
I have degrees in Software Engineering, Mechanical Engineering,
Chemistry, and paint with watercolor on paper. I guess I'm both and
hopelessly addicted to woodworking and mountain hiking. I found
myself flustered with most software programs and use an obsolete
drafting table with T-square, French curves, and triangles. Certainly
not against computers, but It works well for me.
I think this is an instance of a false dichotomy.
Any activity practiced at the highest level becomes an art and the
artisan and artist share more in common than their linguistic roots.
The woodworker needs to incorporate both and, in the words of a famous
woodworker:
"Theory without practice is sterile practice without theory is blind."
Karl Marx
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> charlieb wrote:
>>
>> If you THINK you make things that work and
>> THINK you make things that are pleasing
>> to the eye
>> neither of which may actually be true
>> - you're probably an architect.
>
> You just nailed it, bubba!!! :)
You meat me to it Swingman! LOL
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> litteratuer wrote:
>> Neither artist nor engineer. Ham-fisted amateur would be close to the
>> truth.
>>
>> My growing up years were spent on a farm, - we were taught to use
>> whatever we had available to construct something we needed, whether it be
>> from wood or steel. Function took precedence over form.
>> Still does for me.
>> I think those early years helped me to attain the ability to visualise a
>> number of ways to construct things with regard to what I have at hand, -
>> ultimately selecting one and building it.
>> I have never drawn up plans for anything. Doubtless there are those who
>> would say that the appearance of my work makes that quite apparent : )
>
> You wouldn't by chance be a Red Green fan, would you? :-)
>
Too high tech for me ; )
(Had to look it up ...... I'm on the other side of the globe)
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
> this forum.
>
> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing and
> drafting.
> I think I can draw better than people who can't. ; ) My dad was a civil
> engineer
> who made copious plans for "everything". His buddy was a civil engineer
> who
> made projects (mostly "rustic stuff") by the seat of this pants!
>
> I may try SketchUp (motivated by the recent "How To Design Furniture"
> publication
> by Taunton Press). I didn't think the 4-page introduction to the software
> was detailed enough--but it was nice to learn about the (free) software.
> I may give it a
> try it in a few minutes...just to see whether it may be worthwhile for me.
> I can
> hardly wait <gulp>! ; )
>
> Bill
>
Neither artist nor engineer. Ham-fisted amateur would be close to the truth.
My growing up years were spent on a farm, - we were taught to use whatever
we had available to construct something we needed, whether it be from wood
or steel. Function took precedence over form.
Still does for me.
I think those early years helped me to attain the ability to visualise a
number of ways to construct things with regard to what I have at hand, -
ultimately selecting one and building it.
I have never drawn up plans for anything. Doubtless there are those who
would say that the appearance of my work makes that quite apparent : )
Steve Turner wrote:
> litteratuer wrote:
>> Neither artist nor engineer. Ham-fisted amateur would be close to the
>> truth.
>>
>> My growing up years were spent on a farm, - we were taught to use
>> whatever we had available to construct something we needed, whether it
>> be from wood or steel. Function took precedence over form.
>> Still does for me.
>> I think those early years helped me to attain the ability to visualise
>> a number of ways to construct things with regard to what I have at
>> hand, - ultimately selecting one and building it.
>> I have never drawn up plans for anything. Doubtless there are those
>> who would say that the appearance of my work makes that quite
>> apparent : )
>
> You wouldn't by chance be a Red Green fan, would you? :-)
>
He didn't mention duct tape...
- Doug
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:12:57 -0700, the infamous charlieb
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>If you make things that work - and don't worry about
>what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.
>
>If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
>or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
>- you're probably and artist.
>
>If you THINK you make things that work
>and
>THINK you make things that are pleasing
>to the eye
>neither of which may actually be true
>- you're probably an architect.
>
>Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
>who can add or fix what each of the others
>overlooked - or ignored.
Two Master Pointes, charlie. <giggle>
--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---
Bill wrote:
> Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
> For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
> population of this forum.
I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning, others
groove on the result. I like the result.
_____________
> More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
> and drafting.
A. Something simple = no plans
B. Something more complex = "plans"
1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
2. Get yellow legal pad
3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
5. Cut parts
6. Join parts
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico