Constructing Roof for Shed

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>
>I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>
>So some questions:
>
>When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>the plate seats better.
>
>For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>roof, about 3/4 inch.
>
>When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>of the rafters?)
>
>
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.

Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a building inspector any of these questions? That should have been
where you started this project.

Eugbug wrote:
> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>
> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>
> So some questions:
>
> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
> the plate seats better.
>
> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>
> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
> of the rafters?)
>
>
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
>
I never use noggins since I don't know what they are, other than the
part of my anatomy that sits on my neck.

--
GW Ross

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:28:17 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 10/9/16 5:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8'
>>>> high at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or
>>>> 6 degrees.
>>>>
>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet
>>>> with metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4
>>>> x2s seem strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided
>>>> yet what to use for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which
>>>> would give better support for walking on the roof if any
>>>> maintenance needs to be done, plus less likely to be split by the
>>>> Tek screws.
>>>>
>>>> So some questions:
>>>>
>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see
>>>> 4th and 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp
>>>> everything down and nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the
>>>> stud at the back wall so that the plate seats better.
>>>>
>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the
>>>> birds mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters
>>>> if I cut in too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the
>>>> width of the timber mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other
>>>> suggestions are to make the seat cut the width of the top plate (
>>>> 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test piece of timber and
>>>> the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the roof, about 3/4
>>>> inch.
>>>>
>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the
>>>> purloins about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front
>>>> and back of the shed in line with the top plate, or would the
>>>> sheets bend down to the level of noggings which would be just
>>>> above the top plate? (do I need noggings here or just rely on a
>>>> board nailed on to the overhanging ends of the rafters?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>
>|Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>>>> |Download:
>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>>>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg
>>>> | |Download:
>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg
>>>> | |Download:
>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg
>>>> | |Download:
>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>>>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg
>>>> | |Download:
>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>>>
>>> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a building
>>> inspector any of these questions? That should have been where you
>>> started this project.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that
>> obviously varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the
>> neighbours? It only takes one that you do not get along with.
>>
>
>The requirements for permits aren't the same in every area.
>For example, to build my 20x24 outbuilding, all I had to do was draw a
>crude diagram of my yard and the approximate size, location, and
>distance from the property lines. Then I had to tell them I wouldn't
>put any plumbing in it. That's it. Approved.
>
>It can be any size I want, and material, any constructions style, any
>quality or lack thereof, as long as it's 15' set back from property
>lines and septic drain lines.

It's slightly more complicated than that here. The real advantage is of course the knowledge of the inspectors that is
gladly shared to help the novice through what could be a series of bad decisions.

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:23:29 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 10/8/16 10:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 10/8/2016 8:44 AM, Eugbug wrote:
>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>>
>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>>
>>> So some questions:
>>>
>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>>> the plate seats better.
>>>
>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>>
>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>>> of the rafters?)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I would recommend 2x6 for the roof. You might want to hang something
>> from them in the future.
>
>
>I second that. 2x4 isn't strong enough for that length, especially if
>you get any snow at all. And especially if you plan on walking on it
>for maintenance, as you stated.

A useful link:
<http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc>
>
>By the way, I can't tell if there's a moisture barrier above and/or
>below that concrete slab. But don't be surprised if you get a lot of
>rot in your sole plates. Perhaps you put a foam sill plate sealer under
>your walls that isn't visible in the pictures.
>
>As to your cap plate. You should've make the non-sloped wall high
>enough the rip a bevel along the length of its cap plate to avoid that
>gap. What's done is done. Just nail it where it's flush.
>But that leaves you with a wedge shaped section (same shape as that gap)
>of that cap plate that will extend above the adjacent cap plate. You
>can belt sand that down flush, or make a bevel cut to take the excess off.

HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

> > We don't get much snow, never more than 6 inches, but usually about 4
> > inches for a week at most in a year, every 10 years or so.
>
> Building codes are based on "worst case" scenarios. For example, what is
> the deepest snow you have received in the last 100 years? You might not
> have any problems for 10-20 years, but when that "big" storm hits your
> light roof could come crashing down.

+1

http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/snowfallanal.pdf

> Also, rafter span tables are based on the weakest lumber. It's unlikely you
> will have boards with perfectly straight grain. More than likely it'll have
> knots, voids, notches, splits, or other imperfections that can weaken the
> rafter.
>
> The difference in cost between 2x4's and 2x6's will be minimal for a shed
> that size. Why risk it? Personally, I would go with 2x8's.
>
> > What's the idea of jack studs? The header is securely nailed to the
> > king stud, plus I've added another stud adjacent to this also.
>
> The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the weight. That
> header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any snow or
> other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to support
> a header.
>
> Granted, your shed is a small structure so the loads will be minimal. But
> again, why take chances? It's just a couple of 2x4's.
>
> > The walls will be sheeted with box profile metal cladding which will
> > hopefully prevent racking.
>
> I'm not sure what box profile cladding is, but it doesn't sound like a
> structural panel.

<https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=768&q=box+profile+metal+cladding>

>
> > BTW, I think "noggings" is another term for "blocking"
>
> What part of the world are you in?
>
> You are investing time and money to build your shed. With just a little
> effort you can build a safer and longer lasting building.
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com

On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 9:17:11 AM UTC-5, Eugbug wrote:

> So some questions:
>
> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
> the plate seats better.

As Leon suggests, use 2X6 roof rafters, not only for his reasoning, but cut to fit/accommodate that top plate issue.

I don't see any rough window framing, but I also suppose you're not finished with the framing. I think you gonna want a window or two, even if the opening would be a door-like/wood shutter type opening (no glass).

**Wider than normal doorways really really really accommodate moving larger projects in and out easily!!!

Though it's a small shed, I'd recommend putting a trimmer or jack stud under the doorway header.... *hint, hint.... now's the time to widen the doorway, if you'd like.

Sonny

Ok, thanks everyone.

We don't get much snow, never more than 6 inches, but usually about 4
inches for a week at most in a year, every 10 years or so.

There's a moisture barrier under the slab. don't know how effective it
will be because its below ground level. However I trimmed the edge of
the membrane flush with the edge of the slab so it doesn't catch
rainfall, and the metal box profile cladding will extend downwards to
the bottom of the slab. There's about 6 inches of sub base composed of
small broken concrete pieces below the edge of the slab at its
perimeter, extending about 4 inches away from the slab, so hopefully
this will accommodate any water without flooding. The surrounding ground
is a sand and gravel mix with great soakage and never floods. Also I
built on top of an existing floor with a strip of about 9 inches width
of concrete added around the edges, (membrane lower at the perimeter) so
water can't travel inwards and upwards, except by capillary action. I
could add a strip of concrete into the trench around the slab which
would slope downwards at 45 degrees, diverting water away from it and
the damp membrane, and also securing the base edge of the sheets so they
can't be peeled off by burglars.
There's a 4inch strip of damp proof course (the stuff they use under
concrete walls) nailed to the underside of the sill plates with
galvanized nails.

As regards the 4 x 2 sizing, my existing 70 year old shed which had a
span of about 7 feet, only had 3 x 2s on the flat spaced every 4 feet
and there was no issue about walking on it. Granted however, there was a
3 x 2 purloin on the flat half way down the the span and the shed was
only about 10 foot long. The roof was made from corrugated iron (the old
type stuff which was heavier gauge and perhaps had more structural
strength than modern box profile cladding).

I won't be doing any insulating, maybe perhaps add a damp proof membrane
under the sheets on the roof. I wonder would I get condensation on this?

What's the idea of jack studs? The header is securely nailed to the king
stud, plus I've added another stud adjacent to this also.

The walls will be sheeted with box profile metal cladding which will
hopefully prevent racking. The prevailing wind will hit the front long
wall so I was thinking about bracing both short end walls with diagonal
corner to corner or "V" braces (i.e. braces from top two corners to
middle of sill plates). Also would it be a good idea to use short braces
from the top of the wall studs to the rafters?


BTW, I think "noggings" is another term for "blocking"


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--
Eugbug

'krw[_6_ Wrote:
> ;3633707']
>
> A useful link:
> 'Maximum Span Calculator for Wood Joists and Rafters'
> (http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc)[color=blue][i]
>
>

Ok, thanks, will check out that link.


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--
Eugbug

-MIKE-;3633983 Wrote:
>
>
>
> -
> If you're not insulating or heating/cooling the inside, there's not
> much
> need for moisture proofing. 1/2-1" rigid foam or a foil backed
> fiberglass insulation would keep the sun from heating up the inside too
> bad. It would also help to prevent the rare condensation that could be
> cause when it's really cold at night, cooling the inside of the shed,
> then the metal roof warms up fast with the earlier afternoon sun. I
> could see that causing some moisture on the underside. The insulation
> would prevent that.
>
> -
>

Condensation and then dripping was a regular occurrence on the underside
of the corrugated iron of the original shed on frosty mornings when
everything started to thaw. Probably because of our damp climate, but a
lot of moisture was probably coming up through the concrete floor which
didn't have a damp proof membrane

-MIKE-;3633983 Wrote:
>
> -
> Not sure what you mean by "short braces" but steel rafter ties are
> cheap
> and a good way way to connect rafters to a wall. With little to no
> overhang you don't have to worry about uplift, but rafter ties are easy
> and efficient.
>
> -
>


I meant short diagonal bracing timbers joining the studs to the rafters
(about a foot in from the ends of both stud and rafter)


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--
Eugbug

HerHusband;3633727 Wrote:
> -
> The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the weight. That
>
> header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any snow or
>
> other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to
> support
> a header.
> -
>



In my case, the header has no structural function. It's just a panel to
keep burglars out should they pull of the small metal sheet above the
door.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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--
Eugbug

DerbyDad03;3634339 Wrote:
> -
> just don't understand why you keep suggesting sturdier construction
> techniques. I hopped into my time machine, took a quick trip into the
> future to check out his shed and everything is fine. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/z4bb7fp
> -
>
>

LOL!, looks a little like my other ship lapped shed (or what it will
like if I don't sort it out!)


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--
Eugbug

So I decided to use 6 x 2s for the rafters. This is an example of the
metal cladding I'm using, but the actual sheets would span structure
from front to back. I've nailed a 6 x 2 to the ends of the rafters at
the front and will do the same at the back, plus I've added blocking
over the top plate.
Could I screw sheets directly to the framing and dispense with purlins?
The sheets would be screwed to the front 6 x 2 (which is going to act as
a facia), the 6 x 2 at the rear and the blocking.


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|Filename: WP_20161104_004.jpg |
|Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8932|
|Filename: WP_20161104_002.jpg |
|Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8931|
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--
Eugbug

G. Ross;3822956 Wrote:
> Eugbug wrote:-
> So I decided to use 6 x 2s for the rafters. This is an example of the
> metal cladding I'm using, but the actual sheets would span structure
> from front to back. I've nailed a 6 x 2 to the ends of the rafters at
> the front and will do the same at the back, plus I've added blocking
> over the top plate.
> Could I screw sheets directly to the framing and dispense with purlins?
> The sheets would be screwed to the front 6 x 2 (which is going to act
> as
> a facia), the 6 x 2 at the rear and the blocking.
>
>
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Filename: WP_20161104_004.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8932|
> |Filename: WP_20161104_002.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8931|
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
> -
> Te sheets need a row of screws near the center.
> Otherwise they tend to flap up and down in the center of each sheet
> and pull at the screws at the edges. Not a good practice.
>
> GW Ross
>
> When you have had all that you can
> take, put the rest back.

The sheets would be supported in the middle of the span by the blocking
which is spaced at 3 foot intervals. I know the blocking isn't resting
on the rafters and the nails which would be taking a shear load, rather
than the timber. However if I use 3 nails at the end of each blocking
piece, this should take a reasonably large load. Also If I use purlins,
all that's holding the roof and purlins onto the rafters and preventing
uplift are the nails holding the purlins onto each rafter where they
intersect.
The only problem is making sure I screw into the right side of the
centre line of the blocking because of the staggering effect.


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--
Eugbug

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> > A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
> > needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
> > $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
> > full inspections, though.
>
> We designed and built our 24'x28' garage back in 2001, then designed and
> built our own house in 2003. I didn't have any issues getting the permits,
> other than a few corrections on the plans for seismic requirements and
> smoke detectors. I had several inspectors, all of whom were helpful and
> great to deal with.
>
> The only inspector I ever had a problem with was an electrical inspector
> when we were remodeling my in-laws house. He always passed my work, but he
> was a very grumpy guy to deal with.
>
> > the general inspector was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal
> > passage door with a metal frame between the garage an house
>
> If the garage is attached to the house, I believe an auto-closing fire
> rated door like that is required by codes now.
>
> > and an 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door.
>
> Was the door in a load bearing wall? Was it supporting another floor above?
> 16' is a large span, especially in a bearing wall. Something like that
> should have been specified and approved/denied when you submitted your
> plans to the building department.
>
> Was it required for shear strength? I had to install special seismic
> anchors in the foundation and build shear walls on either side of our
> garage (we did go with two 8' doors instead of a single large door).

The idiot who built my garage put a couple of 2x12s over the 16 foot
garage door and oriented the roof so it was a load bearing member.
Since that time it has developed a good bit of sag. When I reroofed the
place a few years back I should have pulled the whole roof structure off
and rotated it 90 degrees but it didn't occur to me until after the job
was done.

On 10/8/2016 8:44 AM, Eugbug wrote:
> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>
> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>
> So some questions:
>
> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
> the plate seats better.
>
> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>
> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
> of the rafters?)
>
>
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
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>
I would recommend 2x6 for the roof. You might want to hang something
from them in the future.

> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
> strong enough with not much sagging.

I assume you're just doing a simple shed roof, with the rafters spanning
from the front wall to the back (no trusses)?

If so, for a 10' span with 24" spacing, you should at least use 2x6
rafters. Even then, depending on your climate (snow loads) and the
species of wood, even a 2x6 would be undersized.

You could either switch to 2x6's at 16" spacing, or use 2x8's at 24"
spacing.

You can't judge the rafter sag just by standing in the middle. You
probably weigh less than 250 pounds. Imagine how much a foot of wet snow
weighs "on every square foot" of that roof! If you use 2x4 rafters you
may come out one winter to find your roof has collapsed.

Also, if you ever want to insulate your shed, 2x4's won't give you much
space for insulation. And as you discovered, 2x4's don't have enough
depth to cut bird mouth's.

> I haven't decided yet what to use for the purloins

Use the same size lumber you use for your roof rafters. This will provide
support for your metal roofing, and will prevent the rafters from
twisting as they dry out. Stagger the blocking so you can nail through
the rafter into each solid block, or use joist hangers.

> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down
> and nail?

At this point, the way you have it built I would probably skip the top
plate and just use metal plates to tie the walls together.

> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat
> cut the width of the top plate

Use deeper rafters (2x8's) and cut the bird mouth the width of the top
plates. This will give a flush intersection on the interior and exterior
of the wall.

Other issues I noticed:

1. I don't see any jack studs under the door header. You have a doubled
king stud on each side, but nothing actually holding up the header?

2. What are you sheathing the shed with? If you're not using plywood, you
should add some kind of diagonal bracing let into the studs. This will
prevent the shed from racking side to side.

3. The doorway seems narrow? If you are planning to store lawn equipment
(wheelbarrows, riding lawnmowers, etc.) you may want a wider door.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

> We don't get much snow, never more than 6 inches, but usually about 4
> inches for a week at most in a year, every 10 years or so.

Building codes are based on "worst case" scenarios. For example, what is
the deepest snow you have received in the last 100 years? You might not
have any problems for 10-20 years, but when that "big" storm hits your
light roof could come crashing down.

Also, rafter span tables are based on the weakest lumber. It's unlikely you
will have boards with perfectly straight grain. More than likely it'll have
knots, voids, notches, splits, or other imperfections that can weaken the
rafter.

The difference in cost between 2x4's and 2x6's will be minimal for a shed
that size. Why risk it? Personally, I would go with 2x8's.

> What's the idea of jack studs? The header is securely nailed to the
> king stud, plus I've added another stud adjacent to this also.

The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the weight. That
header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any snow or
other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to support
a header.

Granted, your shed is a small structure so the loads will be minimal. But
again, why take chances? It's just a couple of 2x4's.

> The walls will be sheeted with box profile metal cladding which will
> hopefully prevent racking.

I'm not sure what box profile cladding is, but it doesn't sound like a
structural panel. If you don't have plywood sheathing nailed every 6"
around the perimeter and 12" in the middle of each sheet, you should add
diagonal bracing to the studs (cut notches in the studs to let the bracing
sit flush).

> BTW, I think "noggings" is another term for "blocking"

What part of the world are you in?

You are investing time and money to build your shed. With just a little
effort you can build a safer and longer lasting building.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

> A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
> needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
> $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
> full inspections, though.

We designed and built our 24'x28' garage back in 2001, then designed and
built our own house in 2003. I didn't have any issues getting the permits,
other than a few corrections on the plans for seismic requirements and
smoke detectors. I had several inspectors, all of whom were helpful and
great to deal with.

The only inspector I ever had a problem with was an electrical inspector
when we were remodeling my in-laws house. He always passed my work, but he
was a very grumpy guy to deal with.

> the general inspector was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal
> passage door with a metal frame between the garage an house

If the garage is attached to the house, I believe an auto-closing fire
rated door like that is required by codes now.

> and an 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door.

Was the door in a load bearing wall? Was it supporting another floor above?
16' is a large span, especially in a bearing wall. Something like that
should have been specified and approved/denied when you submitted your
plans to the building department.

Was it required for shear strength? I had to install special seismic
anchors in the foundation and build shear walls on either side of our
garage (we did go with two 8' doors instead of a single large door).

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

> The idiot who built my garage put a couple of 2x12s over the 16 foot
> garage door and oriented the roof so it was a load bearing member.
> Since that time it has developed a good bit of sag. When I reroofed
> the place a few years back I should have pulled the whole roof
> structure off and rotated it 90 degrees but it didn't occur to me
> until after the job was done.

Could you jack up the 2x12 headers to get the sag out, then bolt on a steel
flitch plate to strengthen the header?

Of course, if the sag developed over time, it would probably be darn near
impossible to straighten those 2x12's again. Maybe you could jack it up in
the middle just a little bit (1/8 inch or so) each day, so the beam can
slowly straighten out?

Either that or build a temporary support wall and replace the original 2x12
headers. No small job for sure.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Eugbug wrote:
> So I decided to use 6 x 2s for the rafters. This is an example of the
> metal cladding I'm using, but the actual sheets would span structure
> from front to back. I've nailed a 6 x 2 to the ends of the rafters at
> the front and will do the same at the back, plus I've added blocking
> over the top plate.
> Could I screw sheets directly to the framing and dispense with purlins?
> The sheets would be screwed to the front 6 x 2 (which is going to act as
> a facia), the 6 x 2 at the rear and the blocking.
>
>
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>
I would not attach directly to the framing. The sheets need support
crosswise and the sheets need a row of screws near the center.
Otherwise they tend to flap up and down in the center of each sheet
and pull at the screws at the edges. Not a good practice.

The framing looks nice and sturdy.

--
GW Ross

When you have had all that you can
take, put the rest back.

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 12:18:55 PM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 10/10/16 8:48 AM, Eugbug wrote:
> > HerHusband;3633727 Wrote:
> >> - The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the
> >> weight. That
> >>
> >> header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any
> >> snow or
> >>
> >> other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to
> >> support a header. -
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > In my case, the header has no structural function. It's just a panel
> > to keep burglars out should they pull of the small metal sheet above
> > the door.
> >
>
> There are easier ways to break into that shed, believe me. :-)
>
> I hate to keep bringing stuff up, but you asked.
> That header *is* doing something structural. It's taking the weight of
> the roof over the opening and transferring it to the studs and down to
> the foundations.
>
> I realize this is just a shed so it'll probably be just fine. But I'm
> looking at your pictures and just realized how far your stud spacing is.
> If that structure is indeed 20' long, then those studs are 32" apart,
> twice as far as they should be. It looks tome like the building is
> actually about 17' long and studs are 24" apart giving you a 30-32" door.
>
> In either case, those studs are undersized. But as I said, it's a shed,
> not a home.
> I do, now recommend some diagonal bracing on all the walls. The minimal
> would be a half sheet of 1/2' plywood on all 8 corner wall ends. You
> could also put 2x4 diagonals on the insides of the walls, similar to the
> bracing you show in your pictures.
>
> Just a suggestion.
>

I just don't understand why you keep suggesting sturdier construction
techniques. I hopped into my time machine, took a quick trip into the
future to check out his shed and everything is fine. See:

http://www.buellinspections.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sway_back2.jpg

On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 11:48:53 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

>
> You are investing time and money to build your shed. With just a little
> effort you can build a safer and longer lasting building.
>
> Anthony Watson

I whole heartedly agree with Anthony. A few simple improvements/modifications would do wonders for your shed and for your peace of mind, if in doubt.

> I could add a strip of concrete into the trench around the slab which
> would slope downwards at 45 degrees, .....

No need for that. What you've done, already, is okay. If still in doubt, I would recommend at least a 16" overhang of your roof, all around, to further keep any suspect rain/water from your foundation, = little cost.

Sonny

On 10/9/2016 2:38 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 10/8/2016 10:51 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:23:29 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/8/16 10:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 10/8/2016 8:44 AM, Eugbug wrote:
>>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>>>>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6
>>>>> degrees.
>>>>>
>>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>>>>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>>>>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>>>>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>>>>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>>>>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>>>>
>>>>> So some questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>>>>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything
>>>>> down and
>>>>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so
>>>>> that
>>>>> the plate seats better.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>>>>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>>>>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>>>>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the
>>>>> seat cut
>>>>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a
>>>>> test
>>>>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>>>>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>>>>
>>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>>>>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of
>>>>> the
>>>>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>>>>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>>>>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging
>>>>> ends
>>>>> of the rafters?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I would recommend 2x6 for the roof. You might want to hang something
>>>> from them in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>> I second that. 2x4 isn't strong enough for that length, especially if
>>> you get any snow at all. And especially if you plan on walking on it
>>> for maintenance, as you stated.
>>
>> A useful link:
>> <http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc>
>>>
>>> By the way, I can't tell if there's a moisture barrier above and/or
>>> below that concrete slab. But don't be surprised if you get a lot of
>>> rot in your sole plates. Perhaps you put a foam sill plate sealer under
>>> your walls that isn't visible in the pictures.
>>>
>>> As to your cap plate. You should've make the non-sloped wall high
>>> enough the rip a bevel along the length of its cap plate to avoid that
>>> gap. What's done is done. Just nail it where it's flush.
>>> But that leaves you with a wedge shaped section (same shape as that gap)
>>> of that cap plate that will extend above the adjacent cap plate. You
>>> can belt sand that down flush, or make a bevel cut to take the excess
>>> off.
>
> That's a nice calculator, but it does not take into account the pitch or
> style of roof.
> A flatter roof requires more support.
> A barn style roof, less, as most of it is very steep, might not require
> 2x6 where a normal pitch might.
> At any rate, I read the ops original 4 x 2 and went ... whattttt??? you
> mean a 2x4!!!
>
Also the op never specified snow load or not.

--
Jeff

On 10/8/2016 10:51 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:23:29 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/8/16 10:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 10/8/2016 8:44 AM, Eugbug wrote:
>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>>>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>>>
>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>>>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>>>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>>>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>>>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>>>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>>>
>>>> So some questions:
>>>>
>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>>>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>>>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>>>> the plate seats better.
>>>>
>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>>>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>>>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>>>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>>>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>>>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>>>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>>>
>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>>>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>>>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>>>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>>>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>>>> of the rafters?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I would recommend 2x6 for the roof. You might want to hang something
>>> from them in the future.
>>
>>
>> I second that. 2x4 isn't strong enough for that length, especially if
>> you get any snow at all. And especially if you plan on walking on it
>> for maintenance, as you stated.
>
> A useful link:
> <http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc>
>>
>> By the way, I can't tell if there's a moisture barrier above and/or
>> below that concrete slab. But don't be surprised if you get a lot of
>> rot in your sole plates. Perhaps you put a foam sill plate sealer under
>> your walls that isn't visible in the pictures.
>>
>> As to your cap plate. You should've make the non-sloped wall high
>> enough the rip a bevel along the length of its cap plate to avoid that
>> gap. What's done is done. Just nail it where it's flush.
>> But that leaves you with a wedge shaped section (same shape as that gap)
>> of that cap plate that will extend above the adjacent cap plate. You
>> can belt sand that down flush, or make a bevel cut to take the excess off.

That's a nice calculator, but it does not take into account the pitch or
style of roof.
A flatter roof requires more support.
A barn style roof, less, as most of it is very steep, might not require
2x6 where a normal pitch might.
At any rate, I read the ops original 4 x 2 and went ... whattttt??? you
mean a 2x4!!!

--
Jeff

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 04:24:56 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
>> needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
>> $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
>> full inspections, though.
>
>We designed and built our 24'x28' garage back in 2001, then designed and
>built our own house in 2003. I didn't have any issues getting the permits,
>other than a few corrections on the plans for seismic requirements and
>smoke detectors. I had several inspectors, all of whom were helpful and
>great to deal with.
>
>The only inspector I ever had a problem with was an electrical inspector
>when we were remodeling my in-laws house. He always passed my work, but he
>was a very grumpy guy to deal with.

My experience was exactly the opposite. The electrical inspector was
really helpful and easy to work with. He did get a little tight jawed
when he plugged in his three-light tester and it was dark. I told him
that the garage was shut off at the entrance panel. Well, I didn't
have a CO! I told him that I only had power on while I was working on
the garage. He just shook his head and said I was the only one he'd
come across that actually followed the rules.
>
>> the general inspector was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal
>> passage door with a metal frame between the garage an house
>
>If the garage is attached to the house, I believe an auto-closing fire
>rated door like that is required by codes now.

It certainly wasn't in '84ish. It had to be 30-minute rated, IIRC,
but the metal door and frame was rated for 90(?).

>> and an 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door.
>
>Was the door in a load bearing wall? Was it supporting another floor above?
>16' is a large span, especially in a bearing wall. Something like that
>should have been specified and approved/denied when you submitted your
>plans to the building department.

No, it was supporting the trusses. A laminated wood beam (3x 2x12s
with plywood) was perfectly good. Overkill, actually. The inspector
agreed that it would work but said "do it anyway".

>Was it required for shear strength? I had to install special seismic
>anchors in the foundation and build shear walls on either side of our
>garage (we did go with two 8' doors instead of a single large door).

The piers on either side were masonry (8" block and brick). No, he
was a well known asshole. He'd failed his inspector's exam three
times but was still the town building inspector.

>Anthony Watson
>www.watsondiy.com
>www.mountainsoftware.com

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 20:13:22 -0500, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:28:17 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 10/9/16 5:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>>> On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8'
>>>>> high at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or
>>>>> 6 degrees.
>>>>>
>>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet
>>>>> with metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4
>>>>> x2s seem strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided
>>>>> yet what to use for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which
>>>>> would give better support for walking on the roof if any
>>>>> maintenance needs to be done, plus less likely to be split by the
>>>>> Tek screws.
>>>>>
>>>>> So some questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see
>>>>> 4th and 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp
>>>>> everything down and nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the
>>>>> stud at the back wall so that the plate seats better.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the
>>>>> birds mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters
>>>>> if I cut in too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the
>>>>> width of the timber mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other
>>>>> suggestions are to make the seat cut the width of the top plate (
>>>>> 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test piece of timber and
>>>>> the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the roof, about 3/4
>>>>> inch.
>>>>>
>>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the
>>>>> purloins about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front
>>>>> and back of the shed in line with the top plate, or would the
>>>>> sheets bend down to the level of noggings which would be just
>>>>> above the top plate? (do I need noggings here or just rely on a
>>>>> board nailed on to the overhanging ends of the rafters?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>|Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>>>>> |Download:
>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg
>>>>> | |Download:
>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg
>>>>> | |Download:
>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg
>>>>> | |Download:
>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>>>>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg
>>>>> | |Download:
>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>>>>
>>>> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a building
>>>> inspector any of these questions? That should have been where you
>>>> started this project.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that
>>> obviously varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the
>>> neighbours? It only takes one that you do not get along with.
>>>
>>
>>The requirements for permits aren't the same in every area.
>>For example, to build my 20x24 outbuilding, all I had to do was draw a
>>crude diagram of my yard and the approximate size, location, and
>>distance from the property lines. Then I had to tell them I wouldn't
>>put any plumbing in it. That's it. Approved.
>>
>>It can be any size I want, and material, any constructions style, any
>>quality or lack thereof, as long as it's 15' set back from property
>>lines and septic drain lines.
>
>It's slightly more complicated than that here. The real advantage is of course the knowledge of the inspectors that is
>gladly shared to help the novice through what could be a series of bad decisions.

At a prior house, a neighbor build a rather large shed on his second
lot. To get around the need for a building permit he couldn't have a
concrete floor or any sort of foundation. He put it on skids on
gravel and put in a raised wood floor. Worked well, though I don't
know if there were long term issues.

A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
$10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
full inspections, though. The town engineer was very helpful with
design decisions but the general inspector (everything but electrical)
was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal passage door with
a metal frame between the garage an house, and an 8" heavy H-beam over
the 16' door. He was trying to force me into two 9' doors but it
would have looked horrible. Some inspectors can be a real help but
others can be real jerks.

On 10/8/16 10:39 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 10/8/2016 8:44 AM, Eugbug wrote:
>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>
>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>
>> So some questions:
>>
>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>> the plate seats better.
>>
>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>
>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>> of the rafters?)
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I would recommend 2x6 for the roof. You might want to hang something
> from them in the future.


I second that. 2x4 isn't strong enough for that length, especially if
you get any snow at all. And especially if you plan on walking on it
for maintenance, as you stated.

By the way, I can't tell if there's a moisture barrier above and/or
below that concrete slab. But don't be surprised if you get a lot of
rot in your sole plates. Perhaps you put a foam sill plate sealer under
your walls that isn't visible in the pictures.

As to your cap plate. You should've make the non-sloped wall high
enough the rip a bevel along the length of its cap plate to avoid that
gap. What's done is done. Just nail it where it's flush.
But that leaves you with a wedge shaped section (same shape as that gap)
of that cap plate that will extend above the adjacent cap plate. You
can belt sand that down flush, or make a bevel cut to take the excess off.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Eugbug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.

I agree with many others...make the door wider, as wide as possible, maybe
even double doors or a sliding "barn door".

Ditto on windows. Light is always nice, not to mention ventilation. No
idea where you live or what you intend to put in the shed but ventilate in
some way.

On 10/8/16 3:47 PM, Eugbug wrote:
> Ok, thanks everyone.
>
> We don't get much snow, never more than 6 inches, but usually about
> 4 inches for a week at most in a year, every 10 years or so.
>

There are other reasons, other than static load.
The cost difference between a 2x4 and 2x6 isn't really enough to justify
the risk.


>
> I won't be doing any insulating, maybe perhaps add a damp proof
> membrane under the sheets on the roof. I wonder would I get
> condensation on this?
>

If you're not insulating or heating/cooling the inside, there's not much
need for moisture proofing. 1/2-1" rigid foam or a foil backed
fiberglass insulation would keep the sun from heating up the inside too
bad. It would also help to prevent the rare condensation that could be
cause when it's really cold at night, cooling the inside of the shed,
then the metal roof warms up fast with the earlier afternoon sun. I
could see that causing some moisture on the underside. The insulation
would prevent that.


> What's the idea of jack studs? The header is securely nailed to the
> king stud, plus I've added another stud adjacent to this also.
>

As others have pointed out, that's not the purpose of the nails. A jack
stud takes the weight of the roof over the door down to the foundation.
But again, supporting the static weight isn't the only issue. You'll
probably never have a problem with it, but we're telling you the correct
way to do it.


> The walls will be sheeted with box profile metal cladding which will
> hopefully prevent racking. The prevailing wind will hit the front
> long wall so I was thinking about bracing both short end walls with
> diagonal corner to corner or "V" braces (i.e. braces from top two
> corners to middle of sill plates). Also would it be a good idea to
> use short braces from the top of the wall studs to the rafters?
>

Corrugated metal sheathing adds a surprising amount of shear wall
support, especially when fastened with the proper fastener schedule.
Your V-bracing idea is nice, but it's probably overkill. Belt &
suspenders, nonetheless.

Not sure what you mean by "short braces" but steel rafter ties are cheap
and a good way way to connect rafters to a wall. With little to no
overhang you don't have to worry about uplift, but rafter ties are easy
and efficient.

For my last outbuilding I used structural wood screws in place of
hurricane ties.
http://www.fastenmaster.com/products/timberlok-heavy-duty-wood-screw.html
They go in incredibly fast and easy and meet all building codes for
truss connection.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>
>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>
>> So some questions:
>>
>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>> the plate seats better.
>>
>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>
>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>> of the rafters?)
>>
>>
>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>> |Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>
> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a building inspector any of these questions? That should have been
> where you started this project.
>
+1

Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that obviously
varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the neighbours? It
only takes one that you do not get along with.

--
Froz....

On 10/9/16 5:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8'
>>> high at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or
>>> 6 degrees.
>>>
>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet
>>> with metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4
>>> x2s seem strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided
>>> yet what to use for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which
>>> would give better support for walking on the roof if any
>>> maintenance needs to be done, plus less likely to be split by the
>>> Tek screws.
>>>
>>> So some questions:
>>>
>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see
>>> 4th and 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp
>>> everything down and nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the
>>> stud at the back wall so that the plate seats better.
>>>
>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the
>>> birds mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters
>>> if I cut in too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the
>>> width of the timber mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other
>>> suggestions are to make the seat cut the width of the top plate (
>>> 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test piece of timber and
>>> the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the roof, about 3/4
>>> inch.
>>>
>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the
>>> purloins about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front
>>> and back of the shed in line with the top plate, or would the
>>> sheets bend down to the level of noggings which would be just
>>> above the top plate? (do I need noggings here or just rely on a
>>> board nailed on to the overhanging ends of the rafters?)
>>>
>>>
>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>
>>>
|Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>>> |Download:
>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg
>>> | |Download:
>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg
>>> | |Download:
>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg
>>> | |Download:
>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg
>>> | |Download:
>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>>
With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>>
>> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a building
>> inspector any of these questions? That should have been where you
>> started this project.
>>
> +1
>
> Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that
> obviously varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the
> neighbours? It only takes one that you do not get along with.
>

The requirements for permits aren't the same in every area.
For example, to build my 20x24 outbuilding, all I had to do was draw a
crude diagram of my yard and the approximate size, location, and
distance from the property lines. Then I had to tell them I wouldn't
put any plumbing in it. That's it. Approved.

It can be any size I want, and material, any constructions style, any
quality or lack thereof, as long as it's 15' set back from property
lines and septic drain lines.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/9/16 8:28 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 20:13:22 -0500, Gordon Shumway
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:28:17 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/9/16 5:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>>>> On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10'
>>>>>> by 8' high at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about
>>>>>> 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and
>>>>>> sheet with metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10
>>>>>> foot span, 4 x2s seem strong enough with not much sagging.
>>>>>> I haven't decided yet what to use for the purloins, maybe 2
>>>>>> x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better support for
>>>>>> walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>>>>>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So some questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it
>>>>>> doesn't sit properly because the top plate of the front
>>>>>> wall is level (see 4th and 5th photos). Should I worry
>>>>>> about that or just clamp everything down and nail? I could
>>>>>> perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>>>>>> the plate seats better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of
>>>>>> the birds mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the
>>>>>> rafters if I cut in too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or
>>>>>> 1/4 of the width of the timber mentioned as a rule of
>>>>>> thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut the width
>>>>>> of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a
>>>>>> test piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for
>>>>>> the slope of the roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space
>>>>>> the purloins about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at
>>>>>> the front and back of the shed in line with the top plate,
>>>>>> or would the sheets bend down to the level of noggings
>>>>>> which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>>>>>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the
>>>>>> overhanging ends of the rafters?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
|Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>>>>>> |Download:
>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>>>>>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a
>>>>> building inspector any of these questions? That should have
>>>>> been where you started this project.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that
>>>> obviously varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the
>>>> neighbours? It only takes one that you do not get along with.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The requirements for permits aren't the same in every area. For
>>> example, to build my 20x24 outbuilding, all I had to do was draw
>>> a crude diagram of my yard and the approximate size, location,
>>> and distance from the property lines. Then I had to tell them I
>>> wouldn't put any plumbing in it. That's it. Approved.
>>>
>>> It can be any size I want, and material, any constructions style,
>>> any quality or lack thereof, as long as it's 15' set back from
>>> property lines and septic drain lines.
>>
>> It's slightly more complicated than that here. The real advantage
>> is of course the knowledge of the inspectors that is gladly shared
>> to help the novice through what could be a series of bad
>> decisions.
>
> At a prior house, a neighbor build a rather large shed on his second
> lot. To get around the need for a building permit he couldn't have
> a concrete floor or any sort of foundation. He put it on skids on
> gravel and put in a raised wood floor. Worked well, though I don't
> know if there were long term issues.
>
> A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
> needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
> $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
> full inspections, though. The town engineer was very helpful with
> design decisions but the general inspector (everything but
> electrical) was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal
> passage door with a metal frame between the garage an house, and an
> 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door. He was trying to force me into
> two 9' doors but it would have looked horrible. Some inspectors can
> be a real help but others can be real jerks.
>

I was framing an addition for a guy in a township just south.
TONS of new housing going up and I don't know how the inspectors keep up.
There are a couple old timers on the staff who really haven't kept up
with modern building technology.

The addition was a simple, long rectangular room, with load bearing
walls running the length, and simple trusses for the roof structure.
The inspector kept telling us he wouldn't approve it until I ran 2x's across
the ceiling to tie the outer walls together to keep the rafters from
pushing the walls out. I tried to explain the geometry of trusses to
him and how each truss was actually doing that, but also how it was
impossible for the "rafters" to push out a wall when using a truss.

I finally begged him to allow the supervising inspector to come by and
look at it.
I hope he didn't lose his job, but on the other hand, I hope they asked
him to retire.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/10/16 4:53 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>>> A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage.
>>> I needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less
>>> than $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I
>>> did need full inspections, though.
>>
>> We designed and built our 24'x28' garage back in 2001, then
>> designed and built our own house in 2003. I didn't have any issues
>> getting the permits, other than a few corrections on the plans for
>> seismic requirements and smoke detectors. I had several inspectors,
>> all of whom were helpful and great to deal with.
>>
>> The only inspector I ever had a problem with was an electrical
>> inspector when we were remodeling my in-laws house. He always
>> passed my work, but he was a very grumpy guy to deal with.
>>
>>> the general inspector was a real asshole. He forced me to put in
>>> a metal passage door with a metal frame between the garage an
>>> house
>>
>> If the garage is attached to the house, I believe an auto-closing
>> fire rated door like that is required by codes now.
>>
>>> and an 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door.
>>
>> Was the door in a load bearing wall? Was it supporting another
>> floor above? 16' is a large span, especially in a bearing wall.
>> Something like that should have been specified and approved/denied
>> when you submitted your plans to the building department.
>>
>> Was it required for shear strength? I had to install special
>> seismic anchors in the foundation and build shear walls on either
>> side of our garage (we did go with two 8' doors instead of a single
>> large door).
>
> The idiot who built my garage put a couple of 2x12s over the 16 foot
> garage door and oriented the roof so it was a load bearing member.
> Since that time it has developed a good bit of sag. When I reroofed
> the place a few years back I should have pulled the whole roof
> structure off and rotated it 90 degrees but it didn't occur to me
> until after the job was done.
>

If it ever becomes an issue, you could probably just lift the roof an
inch with jacks and a temporary support and sister in an LVL or Parallam
beam next to the 2x12s.

Of course, someone who never got the proper engineering specs for a 16'
header probably never bothered to put sufficient footings under posts
for said header. It would be nice to know if the foundation is correct,
too.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/10/16 5:54 AM, Eugbug wrote:
> -MIKE-;3633983 Wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> - If you're not insulating or heating/cooling the inside, there's
>> not much need for moisture proofing. 1/2-1" rigid foam or a foil
>> backed fiberglass insulation would keep the sun from heating up the
>> inside too bad. It would also help to prevent the rare
>> condensation that could be cause when it's really cold at night,
>> cooling the inside of the shed, then the metal roof warms up fast
>> with the earlier afternoon sun. I could see that causing some
>> moisture on the underside. The insulation would prevent that.
>>
>> -
>>
>
> Condensation and then dripping was a regular occurrence on the
> underside of the corrugated iron of the original shed on frosty
> mornings when everything started to thaw. Probably because of our
> damp climate, but a lot of moisture was probably coming up through
> the concrete floor which didn't have a damp proof membrane
>

The insulation under the metal roofing would prevent that because it
wouldn't allow for that temperature difference in the roof and inside
ambient air.



> -MIKE-;3633983 Wrote:
>>
>> - Not sure what you mean by "short braces" but steel rafter ties
>> are cheap and a good way way to connect rafters to a wall. With
>> little to no overhang you don't have to worry about uplift, but
>> rafter ties are easy and efficient.
>>
>> -
>>
>
>
> I meant short diagonal bracing timbers joining the studs to the
> rafters (about a foot in from the ends of both stud and rafter)
>
>

Oh, I see now. If you're wanting that for shear strength (to prevent
diagonal racking), you could probably do it better by putting some 1/2"
sheathing on the inside or outside of those short walls. Doing it on
the inside would give you the added benefit of having a great
nailing/screwing surface for hanging stuff like shovels and gardening
tools, etc.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/10/16 8:48 AM, Eugbug wrote:
> HerHusband;3633727 Wrote:
>> - The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the
>> weight. That
>>
>> header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any
>> snow or
>>
>> other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to
>> support a header. -
>>
>
>
>
> In my case, the header has no structural function. It's just a panel
> to keep burglars out should they pull of the small metal sheet above
> the door.
>

There are easier ways to break into that shed, believe me. :-)

I hate to keep bringing stuff up, but you asked.
That header *is* doing something structural. It's taking the weight of
the roof over the opening and transferring it to the studs and down to
the foundations.

I realize this is just a shed so it'll probably be just fine. But I'm
looking at your pictures and just realized how far your stud spacing is.
If that structure is indeed 20' long, then those studs are 32" apart,
twice as far as they should be. It looks tome like the building is
actually about 17' long and studs are 24" apart giving you a 30-32" door.

In either case, those studs are undersized. But as I said, it's a shed,
not a home.
I do, now recommend some diagonal bracing on all the walls. The minimal
would be a half sheet of 1/2' plywood on all 8 corner wall ends. You
could also put 2x4 diagonals on the insides of the walls, similar to the
bracing you show in your pictures.

Just a suggestion.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/10/16 12:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 12:18:55 PM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 10/10/16 8:48 AM, Eugbug wrote:
>>> HerHusband;3633727 Wrote:
>>>> - The jack studs sit under the header to actually support the
>>>> weight. That
>>>>
>>>> header carries the weight of the structure above, as well as any
>>>> snow or
>>>>
>>>> other loads that may be on the roof. Nails alone are not enough to
>>>> support a header. -
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In my case, the header has no structural function. It's just a panel
>>> to keep burglars out should they pull of the small metal sheet above
>>> the door.
>>>
>>
>> There are easier ways to break into that shed, believe me. :-)
>>
>> I hate to keep bringing stuff up, but you asked.
>> That header *is* doing something structural. It's taking the weight of
>> the roof over the opening and transferring it to the studs and down to
>> the foundations.
>>
>> I realize this is just a shed so it'll probably be just fine. But I'm
>> looking at your pictures and just realized how far your stud spacing is.
>> If that structure is indeed 20' long, then those studs are 32" apart,
>> twice as far as they should be. It looks tome like the building is
>> actually about 17' long and studs are 24" apart giving you a 30-32" door.
>>
>> In either case, those studs are undersized. But as I said, it's a shed,
>> not a home.
>> I do, now recommend some diagonal bracing on all the walls. The minimal
>> would be a half sheet of 1/2' plywood on all 8 corner wall ends. You
>> could also put 2x4 diagonals on the insides of the walls, similar to the
>> bracing you show in your pictures.
>>
>> Just a suggestion.
>>
>
> I just don't understand why you keep suggesting sturdier construction
> techniques. I hopped into my time machine, took a quick trip into the
> future to check out his shed and everything is fine. See:
>
> http://www.buellinspections.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sway_back2.jpg
>

+100!!!!
LMAO! That's actually pretty accurate.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/10/16 8:53 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 21:33:10 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/9/16 8:28 PM, krw wrote:
>> The addition was a simple, long rectangular room, with load bearing
>> walls running the length, and simple trusses for the roof structure.
>> The inspector kept telling us he wouldn't approve it until I ran 2x's across
>> the ceiling to tie the outer walls together to keep the rafters from
>> pushing the walls out. I tried to explain the geometry of trusses to
>> him and how each truss was actually doing that, but also how it was
>> impossible for the "rafters" to push out a wall when using a truss.
>
> That's really strange. He couldn't see the cross-tie at the bottom of
> the truss?

EXACTLY!!
I was looking around for hidden cameras, because I thought I was on some
prank TV show.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/4/16 6:25 AM, Eugbug wrote:
> So I decided to use 6 x 2s for the rafters. This is an example of
> the metal cladding I'm using, but the actual sheets would span
> structure from front to back. I've nailed a 6 x 2 to the ends of the
> rafters at the front and will do the same at the back, plus I've
> added blocking over the top plate. Could I screw sheets directly to
> the framing and dispense with purlins? The sheets would be screwed to
> the front 6 x 2 (which is going to act as a facia), the 6 x 2 at the
> rear and the blocking.
>

Somewhere there is a nailing schedule for that siding/roofing product.
The schedule for corrugated metal roofing almost always is horizontal,
not vertical, hence the purlins. If you are framing in those cross
members between your rafters at the intervals required in the nailing
schedule, you are good. However, the roofing may or may not require
more fasteners along the vertical, overlapping seems. If it does, the
seems would have to land on a rafter.

Find the nailing schedule for that product and you'll know for sure.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 21:33:10 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 10/9/16 8:28 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 20:13:22 -0500, Gordon Shumway
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:28:17 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/9/16 5:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-10-09 5:52 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:44:23 +0200, Eugbug
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10'
>>>>>>> by 8' high at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about
>>>>>>> 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and
>>>>>>> sheet with metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10
>>>>>>> foot span, 4 x2s seem strong enough with not much sagging.
>>>>>>> I haven't decided yet what to use for the purloins, maybe 2
>>>>>>> x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better support for
>>>>>>> walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>>>>>>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So some questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it
>>>>>>> doesn't sit properly because the top plate of the front
>>>>>>> wall is level (see 4th and 5th photos). Should I worry
>>>>>>> about that or just clamp everything down and nail? I could
>>>>>>> perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>>>>>>> the plate seats better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of
>>>>>>> the birds mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the
>>>>>>> rafters if I cut in too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or
>>>>>>> 1/4 of the width of the timber mentioned as a rule of
>>>>>>> thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut the width
>>>>>>> of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a
>>>>>>> test piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for
>>>>>>> the slope of the roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space
>>>>>>> the purloins about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at
>>>>>>> the front and back of the shed in line with the top plate,
>>>>>>> or would the sheets bend down to the level of noggings
>>>>>>> which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>>>>>>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the
>>>>>>> overhanging ends of the rafters?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>|Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>>>>>>> |Download:
>>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>>>>>>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>>>>>>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg | |Download:
>>>>>>> http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>With all of the questions you asked, I have a couple for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is a permit required where you live and did you ask a
>>>>>> building inspector any of these questions? That should have
>>>>>> been where you started this project.
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Around here a 10x10 foot shed or larger needs a permit, that
>>>>> obviously varies depending on jurisdiction. How close are the
>>>>> neighbours? It only takes one that you do not get along with.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The requirements for permits aren't the same in every area. For
>>>> example, to build my 20x24 outbuilding, all I had to do was draw
>>>> a crude diagram of my yard and the approximate size, location,
>>>> and distance from the property lines. Then I had to tell them I
>>>> wouldn't put any plumbing in it. That's it. Approved.
>>>>
>>>> It can be any size I want, and material, any constructions style,
>>>> any quality or lack thereof, as long as it's 15' set back from
>>>> property lines and septic drain lines.
>>>
>>> It's slightly more complicated than that here. The real advantage
>>> is of course the knowledge of the inspectors that is gladly shared
>>> to help the novice through what could be a series of bad
>>> decisions.
>>
>> At a prior house, a neighbor build a rather large shed on his second
>> lot. To get around the need for a building permit he couldn't have
>> a concrete floor or any sort of foundation. He put it on skids on
>> gravel and put in a raised wood floor. Worked well, though I don't
>> know if there were long term issues.
>>
>> A couple of years later (same house), I built a 2-1/2 car garage. I
>> needed drawings for it but since I estimated the cost at less than
>> $10K, I didn't need an architect's or engineer's seal. I did need
>> full inspections, though. The town engineer was very helpful with
>> design decisions but the general inspector (everything but
>> electrical) was a real asshole. He forced me to put in a metal
>> passage door with a metal frame between the garage an house, and an
>> 8" heavy H-beam over the 16' door. He was trying to force me into
>> two 9' doors but it would have looked horrible. Some inspectors can
>> be a real help but others can be real jerks.
>>
>
>I was framing an addition for a guy in a township just south.
>TONS of new housing going up and I don't know how the inspectors keep up.
>There are a couple old timers on the staff who really haven't kept up
>with modern building technology.
>
>The addition was a simple, long rectangular room, with load bearing
>walls running the length, and simple trusses for the roof structure.
>The inspector kept telling us he wouldn't approve it until I ran 2x's across
>the ceiling to tie the outer walls together to keep the rafters from
>pushing the walls out. I tried to explain the geometry of trusses to
>him and how each truss was actually doing that, but also how it was
>impossible for the "rafters" to push out a wall when using a truss.

That's really strange. He couldn't see the cross-tie at the bottom of
the truss?
>
>I finally begged him to allow the supervising inspector to come by and
>look at it.
>I hope he didn't lose his job, but on the other hand, I hope they asked
>him to retire.

The problem with going over the head of an inspector is that he still
has the power to make your life miserable.

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 10:51:11 -0400, "G. Ross" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Eugbug wrote:
>> So this is my first ever shed construction, about 20' x 10' by 8' high
>> at the front, built from 4 x 2 s. Slope is about 1 in 9.5 or 6 degrees.
>>
>> I plan to use 4 x 2s on the edge for the roof rafters, and sheet with
>> metal cladding. At a 2' spacing, and with a 10 foot span, 4 x2s seem
>> strong enough with not much sagging. I haven't decided yet what to use
>> for the purloins, maybe 2 x 1 1/2 or 3 x 2 which would give better
>> support for walking on the roof if any maintenance needs to be done,
>> plus less likely to be split by the Tek screws.
>>
>> So some questions:
>>
>> When I rest the upper top plate on the lower one, it doesn't sit
>> properly because the top plate of the front wall is level (see 4th and
>> 5th photos). Should I worry about that or just clamp everything down and
>> nail? I could perhaps mitre the top of the stud at the back wall so that
>> the plate seats better.
>>
>> For a 4 x 2 what's the recommended depth of the heel cut of the birds
>> mouth? I don't want to weaken the overhang of the rafters if I cut in
>> too much. I've seen figures of 1/3 or 1/4 of the width of the timber
>> mentioned as a rule of thumb. Other suggestions are to make the seat cut
>> the width of the top plate ( 3 3/4" in my case). I tried this on a test
>> piece of timber and the heel cut is quite short for the slope of the
>> roof, about 3/4 inch.
>>
>> When attaching the box profile sheets, I'm going to space the purloins
>> about 3 feet apart. So do I need a purloin at the front and back of the
>> shed in line with the top plate, or would the sheets bend down to the
>> level of noggings which would be just above the top plate? (do I need
>> noggings here or just rely on a board nailed on to the overhanging ends
>> of the rafters?)
>>
>>
>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>> |Filename: WP_20161006_005.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8929|
>> |Filename: WP_20161006_001.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8928|
>> |Filename: WP_20161004_007.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8927|
>> |Filename: WP_20161004_006.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8926|
>> |Filename: 2016_10_07_10_32_49_ProShot.jpg |
>> |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8925|
>> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>
>I never use noggins since I don't know what they are, other than the
>part of my anatomy that sits on my neck.

For some, e.g. those without period or shift keys, that would be their
cheeks.