Control Panel Project

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:11:42 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>When I had a lumber guy at HD look at the control panel some years
>ago, he said he thought it was "BC plywood", which he didn't have.(Is
>"BC plywood" the cabinet Birch plywood you are referring to?).


BC is pine plywood, with a "B" and a "C" grade face.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
<[email protected]> wrote:

>What is your take on how the original control panel was made?
>http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Control%20panel%20Project/
>
>I count 5 plies. And a veneer was used to cover after the corners were
>rounded.(If I decide to round the corner, I guess I could use some Oak
>veneer I also saw at HD & Lowes).


From the photos, it looks like plain ol' decent quality sanded
plywood, wrapped with a vinyl or paper.

Be aware that plywood is very strong, and more stable than solid wood.
Most guitar amps, PA cabinets, pinball machines, wood jukeboxes,
instrument and equipment "flight" cases, etc... have plywood carcases
under a protective or decorative finish. The finish can be paint,
vinyl, melamine or other laminates, fine wood, even coated paper.

Your photos look exactly like every guitar amp I've seen with the
vinyl peeled off.

If you're wrapping it and the item isn't intended for portability, MDF
is a fantasically stable substrate with very friendly working
properties, as well as super cheap.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Jun 15, 6:49=A0pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >What is your take on how the original control panel was made?
> >http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Control%20pan...
>
> >I count 5 plies. And a veneer was used to cover after the corners were
> >rounded.(If I decide to round the corner, I guess I could use some Oak
> >veneer I also saw at HD & Lowes).
>
> From the photos, it looks like plain ol' decent quality sanded
> plywood, wrapped with a vinyl or paper.
>
> Be aware that plywood is very strong, and more stable than solid wood.
> Most guitar amps, PA cabinets, pinball machines, wood jukeboxes,
> instrument and equipment "flight" cases, etc... =A0have plywood carcases
> under a protective or decorative finish. =A0The finish can be paint,
> vinyl, melamine or other laminates, fine wood, even coated paper.
>
> Your photos look exactly like every guitar amp I've seen with the
> vinyl peeled off.
>
> If you're wrapping it and the item isn't intended for portability, MDF
> is a fantasically stable substrate with very friendly working
> properties, as well as super cheap.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> **http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html=A0**
> ---------------------------------------------

The veneer in over the plywood in those pics is covered with vinyl
artwork.

When I had a lumber guy at HD look at the control panel some years
ago, he said he thought it was "BC plywood", which he didn't have.(Is
"BC plywood" the cabinet Birch plywood you are referring to?).

MDF is notoriously known for being what was used by game cabinet
manufacturers who were trying to cut costs.

Damage to these cabinets is almost always to the MDF portions.

And none of them ever used MDF for the control panel which is known to
take punishment.(And definitely don't get this material wet).

I should have taken pics of the 3/4" (4' x 8') Hardwood Birch Plywood
I saw at HD. The edges did look pretty solid.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 24, 12:39=A0am, Jason <[email protected]> wrote:
> Searcher7 wrote:
> > On Jun 22, 11:26 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Searcher7" wrote:
>
> >> I checked two more lumber yards and could not find Baltic Birch.
>
> >> Where is the MDO info?
>
> >> Lew
>
> > I know nothing about MDO, and only asked about Baltic Birch over the
> > phone. I hadn't seen it during my visits to Home Depot and Lowes.
>
> > Is it cheaper and/or better than the plywoods I listed?
>
> I think what Lew is trying to say is that you may find it to be cheaper
> than high-grade plywood, and since your cabinet/control panel isn't
> going to be exposed to the elements/rain, it may be a viable alternative
> for you.

Yes, he did say it would be cheaper than Baltic Birch plywood. MDO is
supposed to be an exterior grade plywood, so I guess that exposure to
the elements shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Nevertheless, if I can't make a stronger joint than with all the all
the materials I listed, then I can't see it being worth the higher
cost.

> It's not the same as 7 or 11 or 13 layer ply, but the fact that it has a
> poly (or vinyl, or whatever artifical cover is on it) surface on one
> side that is absolutely made for painting.. =A0It'd probably be worth
> trying to track some down and see it for yourself.

That wouldn't be an advantage for me, since I will not be painting the
finished project.

In fact, since I intend to put adhesive vinyl on it that means I'd
have to round over the entire length.(I hope that compromising the
surface layer of the MDO that way won't create a problem?

Perhaps I should go with a bevel box joint instead of the groove/
rabbet.

Any ideas what material I should use as a glue block?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

"Searcher7" wrote:


>I don't know what the "Borg" is.
H/D, Lowes, etc.

>I don't know how durable sign boards
are, but I will not be painting the finished project. And as far as my
application goes, strength where I join two pieces together lengthwise
is the main issue. In that respect, I still don't know how MDO
compares to the plywoods I listed.

There are lots of ways to get a strong joint with the right materials.

Physically go to a real lumber yard and look at some MDO.

Definitely NOT a Borg or home center item.



Lew

On Jun 23, 8:30=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Searcher7" wrote:
>
> I know nothing about MDO, and only asked about Baltic Birch over the
> phone. I hadn't seen it during my visits to Home Depot and Lowes.
>
> Is it cheaper and/or better than the plywoods I listed?
>
> Reply,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>
> Go back and read my earlier post, info is all there.
>
> Lew

I don't know what the "Borg" is. I don't know how durable sign boards
are, but I will not be painting the finished project. And as far as my
application goes, strength where I join two pieces together lengthwise
is the main issue. In that respect, I still don't know how MDO
compares to the plywoods I listed.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 22, 11:26=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Searcher7" wrote:
>
> I checked two more lumber yards and could not find Baltic Birch.
>
> Where is the MDO info?
>
> Lew

I know nothing about MDO, and only asked about Baltic Birch over the
phone. I hadn't seen it during my visits to Home Depot and Lowes.

Is it cheaper and/or better than the plywoods I listed?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York

Searcher7 wrote:
> On Jun 22, 11:26 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Searcher7" wrote:
>>
>> I checked two more lumber yards and could not find Baltic Birch.
>>
>> Where is the MDO info?
>>
>> Lew
>
> I know nothing about MDO, and only asked about Baltic Birch over the
> phone. I hadn't seen it during my visits to Home Depot and Lowes.
>
> Is it cheaper and/or better than the plywoods I listed?
>

I think what Lew is trying to say is that you may find it to be cheaper
than high-grade plywood, and since your cabinet/control panel isn't
going to be exposed to the elements/rain, it may be a viable alternative
for you.

It's not the same as 7 or 11 or 13 layer ply, but the fact that it has a
poly (or vinyl, or whatever artifical cover is on it) surface on one
side that is absolutely made for painting.. It'd probably be worth
trying to track some down and see it for yourself.

Then again, I could be wrong and he might be meaning something else, but
I suspect I'm semi-close to the mark.

Jason Buckler
Marietta, GA

I tried to e-mail you some diagrams on how to cut this last week. The
mail comes back returned. If you want them then drop me an e-mail
with your correct address.

btw, I've used birch plywood from HD for control panels before. I
haven't had a problem with large voids in it. I wouldn't build
furniture with it but for control panels it's fine. I'm sure you've
noticed voids in arcade cabinets you've worked on.

"Searcher7" wrote:

>...........................................................
The control panel in the pics I took have voids in it. I'm just trying
to make this the best way possible. And as bullet proof as possible.
>...........................................................

Go to a good lumber yard and take a look at MDO plywood, you might be
pleasantly surprised.

It is used for sign boards, has a paper skin on one or both sides, and
takes paint well.

Probably more expensive than whatever the Borg is selling, but less
expensive than 13 ply birch.

You can apply an appliqué over the paper since it will be a smooth,
solid surface.


Lew

"Searcher7" wrote:

I checked two more lumber yards and could not find Baltic Birch.

Where is the MDO info?

Lew

"Searcher7" wrote:

>I count 5 plies. And a veneer was used to cover after the corners
>were
rounded.(If I decide to round the corner, I guess I could use some Oak
veneer I also saw at HD & Lowes).

3/4" cabinet birch has 13 plys, available in 60"x60" sheets.

You WON'T find it at Lowes or H/D, but worth the effort to find it at
a plywood distributor.

BTW, what's left makes great jigs.

Lew

On Jun 15, 6:40=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Searcher7" wrote:
> >I count 5 plies. And a veneer was used to cover after the corners
> >were
>
> rounded.(If I decide to round the corner, I guess I could use some Oak
> veneer I also saw at HD & Lowes).
>
> 3/4" cabinet birch has 13 plys, available in 60"x60" sheets.
>
> You WON'T find it at Lowes or H/D, but worth the effort to find it at
> a plywood distributor.
>
> BTW, what's left makes great jigs.
>
> Lew

This is not 13 plies, but it seems to be similar to what you are
referring to, correct?: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=3DproductList&=
N=3D0&Ntk=3Di_products&Ntt=3DBirch%20Plywood

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

"Searcher7" wrote:


This is not 13 plies, but it seems to be similar to what you are
referring to, correct?:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&N=0&Ntk=i_products&Ntt=Birch%20Plywood


Not even close, it's like saying oranges and apples are equal.

THey are both plywood, but that's it.

You simply are not going to find quality plywood at H/D or Lowes.

Neither one are in the quality material business these days.

Lew

Ok, I'll have to go back and do more research.

I'm thinking 1" because thicker means stronger.

I have several books on making Jigs and Fixtures, so I'll concentrate
on using the Table saw to get the correct angled Bevel cuts.

What is your take on how the original control panel was made?
http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/Statenislander/Control%20panel%20Pr=
oject/

I count 5 plies. And a veneer was used to cover after the corners were
rounded.(If I decide to round the corner, I guess I could use some Oak
veneer I also saw at HD & Lowes).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

****************************************************************************=
******************************************************************

On Jun 15, 5:16=A0pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:56:18 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I found nothing that said "cabinet grade baltic birch plywood". The
> >following are what I saw at Home Depot and Lowes:
>
> >3/4" Hardwood Birch Plywood(4' x 8')
>
> This MIGHT work, and is often available in 2'x4' panels if that's all
> you need. =A0I say MIGHT, because home centers use many suppliers, and
> without seeing what you're looking at... =A0 Some is usable, some is
> total garbage. =A0 What you want is as many plies as possible with no
> internal voids. =A0 =A0The lack of voids and many plies make for superior
> joints and stability.
>
> The stuff I'm talking about is sold by hardwood or plywood dealers
> (check the Yellow Pages) and usually comes in 5' x 5' =A0sheets. =A0Expect=

> to pay ~ $80/sheet for 3/4".
>
> If you use the cheaper birch ply from a home center, use a good gap
> filling glue, like epoxy, to put it together. =A0Regular yellow wood
> glue needs a solid mechanical joint to properly adhere, as it dosen't
> fill gaps.
>
> >**********************************
> >1" x 8" x 10' Solid Red Oak
> >1" x 12" x 6' Solid Maple
>
> >(BTW. I may go with 1" thick instead of 3/4").
>
> Be aware...
>
> "1x" finished wood is actually 23/32" to 3/4" thick, not 1".
>
> 3/4" plywood is actually 22-23/32" thick, not 3/4".
>
> You MUST think of wood movement it you use solid stock. =A0If you don't,
> you'll probably be sorry when it splits or falls apart. =A0You should be
> OK with the edge to edge panel joints, but make sure the reinforcing
> parts have the grain oriented in the same direction.
>
> >I have a Delta TS200LS Shopmaster 10-Inch Table Saw, and a Craftsman
> >1-1/2 Horse Power, 8 amp Router & Table.
>
> I'm not familiar with that stuff, but I'd probably use the saw.
>
> Clamp an auxiliary fence to cut the straight side of the rabbet
> vertically:
> <http://www.americanwoodworker.com/aspx/Contentdetail.aspx?ContentId=3D4..=
.>
>
> Then, cut the groove and angled side of the rabbet with the stock flat
> on the table.
>
> Get a 2'x4' sheet of MDF (around $6) to use for the tall fence, and
> you'll also get a =A0bunch of very inexpensive stock to use for test
> cuts on your setup. =A0
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> **http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html=A0**
> ---------------------------------------------

On Jun 16, 10:20=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Searcher7" wrote:
> >...........................................................
>
> The control panel in the pics I took have voids in it. I'm just trying
> to make this the best way possible. And as bullet proof as possible.
>
> >...........................................................
>
> Go to a good lumber yard and take a look at MDO plywood, you might be
> pleasantly surprised.
>
> It is used for sign boards, has a paper skin on one or both sides, and
> takes paint well.
>
> Probably more expensive than whatever the Borg is selling, but less
> expensive than 13 ply birch.
>
> You can apply an appliqu=E9 over the paper since it will be a smooth,
> solid surface.
>
> Lew

I checked two more lumber yards and could not find Baltic Birch.

So I'm thinking that perhaps I am over doing it. I see voids in the
plywood of the original control panel, which may be pine, so am I
correct in assuming that every plywood listed below would be
considered a step up?

I counted 11 plies in the Hardwood Birch plywood. And the UV Maple &
the Cherry cost a little more. And the cheapest was the Birch Boise
Cascade BMDD(Handy Panel).

3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood Birch Plywood
3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood Cherry Plywood
3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood Primed Plywood
3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood Red Oak Plywood
3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood UV Maple Plywood
3/4" (2' x 4') Hardwood White Maple Plywood
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
3/4" (2' x 4') Handy Panel Birch Boise Cascade BMDD
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
3/4" (4' x 8') Sap Maple
3/4" (4' x 8') Sap Maple UV 2
3/4" (4' x 8') Hardwood A-I Cherry

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 16, 11:39=A0am, dayvo <[email protected]> wrote:
> I tried to e-mail you some diagrams on how to cut this last week. =A0The
> mail comes back returned. =A0If you want them then drop me an e-mail
> with your correct address.
>
> btw, I've used birch plywood from HD for control panels before. =A0I
> haven't had a problem with large voids in it. =A0I wouldn't build
> furniture with it but for control panels it's fine. =A0I'm sure you've
> noticed voids in arcade cabinets you've worked on.


E-mail sent.

The control panel in the pics I took have voids in it. I'm just trying
to make this the best way possible. And as bullet proof as possible.

I was just reading in "Woodshop Jigs & Fixtures"(Sandor Nagyszalanczy)
that many woodworkers prefer premium plywoods like Baltic Birch, Apple
Ply, and Maple Die board. So I wonder if the guys at the lumber yards
are familiar with all the common names for these materials.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:56:18 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I found nothing that said "cabinet grade baltic birch plywood". The
>following are what I saw at Home Depot and Lowes:
>
>3/4" Hardwood Birch Plywood(4' x 8')

This MIGHT work, and is often available in 2'x4' panels if that's all
you need. I say MIGHT, because home centers use many suppliers, and
without seeing what you're looking at... Some is usable, some is
total garbage. What you want is as many plies as possible with no
internal voids. The lack of voids and many plies make for superior
joints and stability.

The stuff I'm talking about is sold by hardwood or plywood dealers
(check the Yellow Pages) and usually comes in 5' x 5' sheets. Expect
to pay ~ $80/sheet for 3/4".

If you use the cheaper birch ply from a home center, use a good gap
filling glue, like epoxy, to put it together. Regular yellow wood
glue needs a solid mechanical joint to properly adhere, as it dosen't
fill gaps.


>**********************************
>1" x 8" x 10' Solid Red Oak
>1" x 12" x 6' Solid Maple
>
>(BTW. I may go with 1" thick instead of 3/4").

Be aware...

"1x" finished wood is actually 23/32" to 3/4" thick, not 1".

3/4" plywood is actually 22-23/32" thick, not 3/4".

You MUST think of wood movement it you use solid stock. If you don't,
you'll probably be sorry when it splits or falls apart. You should be
OK with the edge to edge panel joints, but make sure the reinforcing
parts have the grain oriented in the same direction.

>I have a Delta TS200LS Shopmaster 10-Inch Table Saw, and a Craftsman
>1-1/2 Horse Power, 8 amp Router & Table.

I'm not familiar with that stuff, but I'd probably use the saw.

Clamp an auxiliary fence to cut the straight side of the rabbet
vertically:
<http://www.americanwoodworker.com/aspx/Contentdetail.aspx?ContentId=435&PageNo=1>

Then, cut the groove and angled side of the rabbet with the stock flat
on the table.

Get a 2'x4' sheet of MDF (around $6) to use for the tall fence, and
you'll also get a bunch of very inexpensive stock to use for test
cuts on your setup.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"Searcher7" wrote:

I know nothing about MDO, and only asked about Baltic Birch over the
phone. I hadn't seen it during my visits to Home Depot and Lowes.

Is it cheaper and/or better than the plywoods I listed?

Reply,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Go back and read my earlier post, info is all there.

Lew