David Marks and Loose Tenons

On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:49:18 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
>> them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
>> "persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
>> then we are in agreement.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
>force fit..
>
>A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
>this thread is about isn't it?

No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method
of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises
and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so
completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual
obtuse self.

>obviously CW and David disagree....

And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Loose tenons are just a different way of doing it. I'm not sure why he
does it that way so often, but in situations were you have ALOT of them
to do, the router method can make quick work of it. I use a simple
homemade jig for my loose tenon mortises. You don't need a
multirouter. But when I only have a couple to do, I usually do
integral tenons on the bandsaw.

Actually I am sure I saw Marks use his dado head to do a tenon the
other week...

>Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware
of?
>Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier
to
>make

It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped
$2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.

The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the
tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the
moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for cabinet
doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where
you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.

Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped
> $2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.
>
> The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the
> tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the
> moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for
cabinet
> doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where
> you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.

Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
integral tenons?

Let me add to the confusion.

Would a biscuit and glue provide the same level of stregnth? I'm
adding a bottom shelf to a coffee table and am trying to decide on the
joinery for the shelf support. The shelf is 28" square made of makore.
I'd like to use biscuit cause it's quick and I already have the tool.


Any thoughts?

In article <[email protected]>, David
<[email protected]> wrote:

> We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples.

Versus Apple's Macintosh. ;-)

Kevin

stoutman wrote:
>
> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...

Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon
joinery.

1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can
be their actual length NOT their actual length
PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to
make a mistake

2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon
width and planed to the needed thickness you
can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross
cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're
not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the
wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed
rail.

3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood
you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the
tenon really strong - try ebony!


Here's a great example of why loose tenons..
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5276/shop/page26.html

charlie b

If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to
hold a M&T joint together without the use
of glue
CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG
AND
CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON

Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get
your attention. By chamfering the
end of the peg and the the hole they'll
self align Rather than SPLITTING!
DAMHKT.

I used draw pegs on the M&T joints
on the base drawer unit to legs joints
just in case I ever need to dismantle
this beast for any reason. Nice
to have reversible joinery - sliding
dovetails are also neat to use - just
in case.

charlie b

mike hide wrote:

> I meant exactly what I said.
>
> In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
> ,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
> structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh


If you double draw pegged them they wouldn't

charlie b

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. <g>
>
> M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".
>
> NOW I find out you were talking pegged...
>

Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load direction,
the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or draw
boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be omitted
or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.

If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
rungs on any chair.

"Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the
> hole.

You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than wedge
against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.

mike hide wrote:

> A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
> force fit..
>
> A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
> this thread is about isn't it?
> obviously CW and David disagree....mjh


Nope - it's about an end grain to edge grain mortise and tenon
joint that puts a mortise in both parts and then a separate
piece of wood to go into those mortises.. "Loose' menas that
the tenon is not part of either piece to be joined together..

charlie b

George wrote:

> You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than wedge
> against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.

Since we're talking about a 1/32 - 1/16th offset between
the hole in the mortised piece and the hole in the tenon, and the
the tenon may be 1/2" thick, I don't think a wooden "nail"
cut end or not, will "cut" that much wood. And if it could,
if it's a through peg, it'd also "cut" the other side of the
mortise as well?

I suggested chamfering both the peg and the tenon's hole
to make drawing the joint easier - remember, we're
talking about a draw peg M&T joint and I had a through
draw pegged joint in mind. I made the chamferring
the hole suggestions based on splitting the end of a
walnut peg in a draw peg M&T joint on my work bench
base unit. Of course the tenons were 3/4" thick maple and
the mortise was in a 3x3 spruce leg - not your typical
M&T joint.

More info please as to peg cutting cross grain.

charlie b

"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George wrote:
>
> > You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than
wedge
> > against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.
>
> Since we're talking about a 1/32 - 1/16th offset between
> the hole in the mortised piece and the hole in the tenon, and the
> the tenon may be 1/2" thick, I don't think a wooden "nail"
> cut end or not, will "cut" that much wood. And if it could,
> if it's a through peg, it'd also "cut" the other side of the
> mortise as well?
>
> I suggested chamfering both the peg and the tenon's hole
> to make drawing the joint easier - remember, we're
> talking about a draw peg M&T joint and I had a through
> draw pegged joint in mind. I made the chamferring
> the hole suggestions based on splitting the end of a
> walnut peg in a draw peg M&T joint on my work bench
> base unit. Of course the tenons were 3/4" thick maple and
> the mortise was in a 3x3 spruce leg - not your typical
> M&T joint.
>
> More info please as to peg cutting cross grain.
>
Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square edge,
breaks fiber to make passage.

Accidently sent this to Mike instead of here. So -this is sort of
like trying to hold a conversation with a 10 hour delay between
parties. Hopefully the diagrams that show the six degrees of
freedom of movement which must be resisted and which parts
of the M&T joint resists which movement.


This may clarify things a little - showing the six (yup - six) degrees
of freedom of movement that need to be fixed if two pieces of wood
are to be joined together and not come apart. A mortise and tenon
joint resists 5 of the six.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MtPrimer4.html

As for having a "sloppy joint" - there are instances where a little
"slop" actually can be a good idea - a table apron to leg joint for
example. Having a little slop at the top of the tenon gives the
tenon a place to expand without blowing the top of the leg off.
You've got vertical grain for the legs and horizontal grain
for the apron. The cross grain in the tenon will expand more
than the vertical grain in the leg. If there's not place set
aside for that expansion it will try anyway. The tenon will
either compress and get tighter OR it will make the space
by moving some wood above it at the top of the leg.

It seems "spit tight" is what to shoot for. The tenon should
fit snug enough to go in and out with just moderate hand
pressure - no dead blow hammer, no mallet whacking etc..
But if you spit on the tenon and then seat it, it should
swell enough to make getting the joint apart difficult.

And tight also means leaving some place for a) glue inside
to go (mortise a little deeper than the tenon is long) and
b) some place for compressing the air trapped in front
of the tenon as it seats or someway for it to get out of the
joint.

The beauty of "traditional joinery" is that it lets you
dry fit things and the parts will a)self align and
b) be self supporting. That's real handy if you make
things "on the fly" - make step 1, make parts for
step 2 to fit what you have in step 1 and so on. Has
the advantage of letting you see things at full scale
each step of the way.

If you've ever worked from a "plan" and cut all your
parts BEFORE putting them together you know that
somewhere amongst all the given dimensions there's
at least one that's wrong. Working progressively
you can get dimensions off what you have. It isn't
important that a part be 22 31/32nds but rather
that if fit between the parts it's suppose to fit between.

I can "take the line", "split the line" and "leave the
line" more often than I can read a tape properly ; )
(ok - tell me you've never made a part an inch short)

charlie b

"Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon 23 May 2005 05:18:59p, "George" <george@least> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square edge,
> > breaks fiber to make passage.
>
> Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the
> mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you
> deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then
> you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.

No. The idea is to get the shoulders of the tenon to register against the
face of the mortised board and keep them there.

When you don't have clamps, or the clamps would be too large, as in house
framing, you draw bore.

You really need to learn some woodworking, and it will involve some
thinking.

If you drive a round peg into an undersized round hole it will split the
piece. Force is applied evenly around the peg, finds the weakest place -
along the grain - to gain room. With a traditional square or whittled peg,
the force on the edges pushes fibers aside or even severs them to make room
without splitting.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This is where all of the discussion here about wood swelling with moisture
> etc., goes a little astray. First off - yes it does swell with moisture,
I
> am aware.

The rates that we
> see published for wood expansion and moisture absorbtion are for raw,
> unsecured wood. They do not apply to sealed wood and they do not apply to
> wood that is secured as in a mortice and tenon.

You are incorrect. The fibers will expand and contract when the moisture
gets to them, and at the same rate, less compression set. You may slow the
arrival with occlusive finishes, but wood loves water and will find a way.

The reason M/T joints work loose is related to this reality. What went
together "spit tight" at 12% MC is less so at 8 or 4. The joint may then be
subject to racking strain, compressing some contact areas which will make
the joint sloppy even when the MC returns to 12%. That's why the glue and
pegs - to deny motion even when the tenon tries to become smaller in the
mortise.

Works the other way, too, though more slowly. Joints made at 4%, if the
don't split the wood getting to 12, begin to develop some compression set
which remains after the cycle returns to 4, progressively loosening the
joint.

Glue or surface fiber will eventually succumb, but the M/T will still bear
load in design direction, and if pegged, should not withdraw.

Joinery That Held Together for Thousands of Years
vs
A / C

I grew up in the tropics, the place formerly known as the
Panama Canal Zone (sounds sort of like the artist formerly
known as Prince), where the temperature ranged from
maybe 78 degrees up to perhaps 94 degrees. The humidity
stayed in the 90 to 100 percent range because the Isthmus
is only 50 miles wide with a lot of water on both sides
(we only had two seasons, Dry Season and Rainy Seasno.
.Dry Season usually was on a Thursday).

I grew up with solid wood, (teak, mahogany, rosewood,
cedar etc.) often carved, furniture from India and China
- all done with traditional joinery, and some quite
complicated and all done with hand tools. Even the delicate
stuff hung together well UNTIL air conditioning became
available. Within 2 years the joinery started opening up
on the more delicate stuff and a drop lid desk with drawers
had the lid warp and split, stretches get loose, drawers get
loose etc. The range of change in relative humidity and the
resulting change in % MC was just too great for the joinery,
given that it was probably made with a %MC of 14 - 18 and
in an A/C environment was probably down to 4%.

For some reason, some of the Chinese furniture, the ones
with triple mitered corners, frame and panel with mitered
frames held up despite the AC.

So, I'm guessing that it's not wood expansion that I need
to accomodate, but rather wood shrinkage - at least for
"house furniture" (as opposed to "just shop furniture").
Guess I'll shoot for Spit Tight rather than Snug or
CTSBTF (Cut To Size, Beat To Fit).

Oh, BTW - if you're going to use half blind dovetails
for a wall hanging tool cabinet, DO NOT put the pins
on the sides and the tails on the top and bottom -
especially not the bottom! Nails, even finishing nails,
detract from the dovetails - just a little bit.

Interesting discussion.

charlie b

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > You are incorrect. The fibers will expand and contract when the
moisture
> > gets to them, and at the same rate, less compression set. You may slow
> the
> > arrival with occlusive finishes, but wood loves water and will find a
way.
>
> This does not make sense George.

It does to wood technologists. RH correlates directly to moisture content.


Wood fibers that are constrained can only
> absorb water to the point that they equal the force placed on them by the
> joint. At that point they effectively reach their saturation level. Wood
> does not continue to obsorb moisture until it reaches the point that its
> moisture content is equal to the surrounding air, it absorbs it to a
maximum
> it can hold and that maximum is limited by the cell's ability to contain
> that moisture. Constrain those cells and they are capable of holding less
> moisture.

Incorrect again. The fibers adsorb moisture at the molecular level, binding
to the cellulose. There is a lot of air left inside any board, indeed,
inside the cells themselves, which spaces are shrunken by the inexorable
gathering of moisture, though they do compression set - they don't return to
full expansion - which condition exacerbates the one caused by shrinkage of
the fibers themselves once the wood begins to seek EMC with lower RH.

Wonderful, well-documented stuff here
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm to read.
Start with chapters 2 and 3.

John Santos wrote:
...
> I've noticed that David Marks always seems to use the same wood for
> the tenons as the pieces he's joining. I wondered if that was the
> reason why, or if it was just because there was usually plenty of
> scrap available. But why else use something expensive for the tenons
> since they don't show? Is there another reason or is it for stability?
>
...
I would expect he does it for all the above reasons. It certainly is
"safer" to use the same material from the standpoint of reliability.
The amount of material used is insignificant in terms of saved cost.
Plus, he may (probably is?) like many of the rest of us--whether it
shows to anybody else or not isn't material--<he> knows what the
interior is.

A similar case is wiring inside a wall--many make it as neat as they can
"just because" even though it all gets covered over and the electrons
don't care...

Patriarch wrote:
>
> Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote in news:42972420.7B6094D2
> @swko.dot.net:
> <snip>
> > A similar case is wiring inside a wall--many make it as neat as they can
> > "just because" even though it all gets covered over and the electrons
> > don't care...
>
> And another thread devolves into an electrical wiring discussion... ;-)

Oh, you're now saying the electrons <do> care??? :)

What a load.

"mike hide" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
> right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
> good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
> ...mjh
>
>

On Sat, 21 May 2005 21:32:58 GMT, the inscrutable "stoutman" <[email protected]>
spake:

>This has probably been asked before, but...
>
>I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
>"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

I've seen only one real tenon in the past two years of his shows.
Don't ask which project. I don't recall.


>Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
>Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
>make?

Easier.


>I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
>Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Soooo, do your projects get done in under half an hour, too?
(Ah dinna thin so.)

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. <g>

M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".

NOW I find out you were talking pegged...

Dav

mike hide wrote:

> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>You aren't serious, are you Mike?
>>
>>"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
>>joint, but I'm betting you already know that...
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>mike hide wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>This has probably been asked before, but...
>>>>
>>>>I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him
>
> cut
>
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>>>>
>>>>Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware
>
> of?
>
>>>>Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
>>>>make?
>>>>
>>>>I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from
>
> him.
>
>>>>Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>>>>
>>>>Confused...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make
>
> the
>
>>>right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
>>>good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
>>>...mjh
>
>
>
> I meant exactly what I said.
>
> In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
> ,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
> structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh
>
>

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > This is where all of the discussion here about wood swelling with
moisture
> > etc., goes a little astray. First off - yes it does swell with
moisture,
> I
> > am aware.
>
> The rates that we
> > see published for wood expansion and moisture absorbtion are for raw,
> > unsecured wood. They do not apply to sealed wood and they do not apply
to
> > wood that is secured as in a mortice and tenon.
>
> You are incorrect. The fibers will expand and contract when the moisture
> gets to them, and at the same rate, less compression set. You may slow
the
> arrival with occlusive finishes, but wood loves water and will find a way.

This does not make sense George. Wood fibers that are constrained can only
absorb water to the point that they equal the force placed on them by the
joint. At that point they effectively reach their saturation level. Wood
does not continue to obsorb moisture until it reaches the point that its
moisture content is equal to the surrounding air, it absorbs it to a maximum
it can hold and that maximum is limited by the cell's ability to contain
that moisture. Constrain those cells and they are capable of holding less
moisture. Like I said, look at how many mortice and tenon joints have held
up for decades and longer without showing effects of changes in humidity.
Look at wood that is nailed in place. The wood does not move between the
nails, it moves where it extends beyond the nails. It moves where it is
unconstrained.

If you could wring out a piece of wood what would happen? Just like a rag,
it would lose its water due to the squeezing process. Cells and fibers
under pressure cannot hold the same amount of moisture that cells and fibers
not exposed to the same pressures can. Wring partially and you evacuate
some of the water, wring more and you evacuate more until you reach the
point that you evacuate all of the water that you can under the pressure
that you're able to exert by wringing. Likewise with wood. Fit tight
tenons and the increase in moisture will only swell the wood to the point
where the pressure exerted on the mortise and the tenon does not exceed the
cell's and the fiber's ability to hold water. The tighter the joint, the
less this ability. Both the mortise and the tennon are going to expand from
the increase in moisture, and both are going to contract by the absence of
it. Looser joints will allow for more movement resultant from the changes
but in either case, the wood is going to be constrained in its ability to
absorb moisture by the pressure exerted on the joint, by the joint. Fit the
joints tightly, and you create a joint that effectively reduce this movement
to the point where it is negligable. There is too much joinery out there
that does not open up gaps in dry weather and close up tightly under higher
humidity to deny that the pressures exerted on wood does not affect movement
from moisture.

>
> The reason M/T joints work loose is related to this reality. What went
> together "spit tight" at 12% MC is less so at 8 or 4. The joint may then
be
> subject to racking strain, compressing some contact areas which will make
> the joint sloppy even when the MC returns to 12%. That's why the glue and
> pegs - to deny motion even when the tenon tries to become smaller in the
> mortise.

This agress with what I said originally, and with what I elaborated on
above. My point originally was that the pressure factors on the joint have
as much or perhaps more to do with what these movements are than relative
humidity does. I suggest that we find way more mortise and tenon joints
that work loose from mechanical stresses (think of a dining room chair) than
we do from wood movement related to moisture levels. That mechanical stress
works the joint regardless of the moisture content. It's an entirely
different issue.

>
> Works the other way, too, though more slowly. Joints made at 4%, if the
> don't split the wood getting to 12, begin to develop some compression set
> which remains after the cycle returns to 4, progressively loosening the
> joint.

This is the point that I suggest is less of an issue in the real world than
is often discussed. I suggest that within certain limits these conditions
will not have the adverse affect on the joint that is often suggested. This
of course, assumes that the joint is constructed reasonably correct in the
first place. The joint has to enjoy mortises and tenons that are
constructed of the proper proportions in the first place. That assumption
allowed, the joint will not see moisture levels vary as much as a raw piece
of wood will. The expansion and contraction within the joint will be much
less than the tables attempt to indicate.

This is why wood products of all sorts can be and are, shipped from all over
the world to all over the world, and do not fall apart. These products are
around us every day of our lives, everywhere we go. The proof of this is
easy to see.

My point does not suggest that moisture content is not a factor to be
considered in woodworking and in joinery, rather it is that this one factor
is too often spoken of in isolation and not considerate of other factors
that play into the issues of wood joinery. Moisture tables are only part of
the story, and like everything else, they need to be taken in a context.
What I've tried to say in this conversation is that interactive joints such
as a mortise and tenon are affected by factors other than just what is
suggested in the moisture tables.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:29:42 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I meant exactly what I said.
>
>In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
>,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
>structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh

Were they drawn together by offset holes for the pegs? I have
furniture done with that technique that's never moved or had to be yet
adjusted. They built barns and ships that way. The M& T are snug,
but not dead tight, just drawn tight.

Dan wrote:

> On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, [email protected] wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
>> integral tenons?
>
> I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on
> three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half
> lap joints.
>
> It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do*
> remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and
> they couldn't really give a good explanation why.
>
> The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the
> loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both
> the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no
> realworld difference.
>
> And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood
> to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to
> batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever
> you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will
> ALWAYS fit nice and snug.
>
> And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The
> only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make
> a nice-looking through tenon.


I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a guy
who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.

His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently his
opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how tightly they
fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> mike hide wrote:
>
> > I meant exactly what I said.
> >
> > In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
> > ,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
> > structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh
>
>
> If you double draw pegged them they wouldn't
>
> charlie b

I am not familiar with the term "double draw pegged" What I refer to is the
standard practice of chairmakers at the time was to bore a hole normal to
the mortice insert the tenon and "spot" the hole center on the tenon .Then
remove the tenon and bore it with the same drill a thirty second or so
closer to the tenon shoulder, so when the peg [usually square] is inserted
it draws the joint together tight....mjh

I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
"persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
then we are in agreement.

Dave

mike hide wrote:

> "George" <george@least> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. <g>
>>>
>>>M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".
>>>
>>>NOW I find out you were talking pegged...
>>>
>>
>>Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load
>
> direction,
>
>>the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
>>movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or
>
> draw
>
>>boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be
>
> omitted
>
>>or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.
>>
>>If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
>>rungs on any chair.
>>
>>
>
> Tenons are subject to two loading conditions and hopefully not three . The
> third a longitudinal load ,would call for a dovetail joint as opposed to a
> modern mortice and tenon.[non pegged]. A pegged tenon would even take some
> longitudinal load .
>
> An unpegged tenon basically is subject to bending and shear loads . The
> shear load is applied at 90 degrees to the tenons length, thus the load will
> crush the glue film [which has thickness with a sloppy tenon /mortice.fit]
> between the bottom of the tenon and the bottom mortice surface until the
> shear load is resisted . this will result in a compression in the lower glue
> thickness and a tension in the upper one with commensurate strains
> [movement].
>
> The second loading is due to the moment the load causes . This load results
> in a point loading of the lower outer edge of the mortice and the upper
> inner edge of the mortice . The former results in even more deformation of
> the glue layer [in addition to that resulting from the shear load ] and a
> reverse deformation at the upper inside of the tenon/mortice .
>
> This loading condition occurs whether the tenon is pegged or not. The pegged
> haunched tenon does somewhat better as the effctively the peg keeps the
> tenon "engaged" and tight allowing the haunch to spread the bending loads..
>
> The bottom line is in the case of a tight fitting mortice and tenon the glue
> joint thicknesses are mininized resulting in the basic wood taking the loads
> directly rather than allowing the loads to be transferred through the glue
> thicknesses for which it is ill suited to do . Wood to wood contact results
> in less flexure and longer joint life .
>
> having a sloppy joint is akin the having a poor edge to edge joint and
> hoping in the poorly fitting sactions that the glue will take the load ,we
> all know how that works ....mjh
>
>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> says...
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:11 -0700, the inscrutable charlie b
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
> >stoutman wrote:
> >>
> >> This has probably been asked before, but...
> >>
> >> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
> >> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
> >>
> >> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> >> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> >> make?
> >>
> >> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> >> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
> >>
> >> Confused...
> >
> > Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon
> > joinery.
> >
> > 1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can
> > be their actual length NOT their actual length
> > PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to
> > make a mistake
>
> Yeah, and two fewer chances, too. <gd&r>
>
>
> > 2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon
> > width and planed to the needed thickness you
> > can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross
> > cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're
> > not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the
> > wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed
> > rail.
>
> Ayup, and you can't just make the bed a bit shorter. Mattresses and
> box springs don't squish much in length. ;)
>
>
> > 3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood
> > you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the
> > tenon really strong - try ebony!
>
> Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had
> the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.

I've noticed that David Marks always seems to use the same wood for
the tenons as the pieces he's joining. I wondered if that was the
reason why, or if it was just because there was usually plenty of
scrap available. But why else use something expensive for the tenons
since they don't show? Is there another reason or is it for stability?

(He also always veneers both sides of his base stock, and has
explicitly said that's for stability, but often uses a different
(nice, but cheaper) wood for the side that doesn't show.)

>
> -
> The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
> so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites
>

--
John

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon 23 May 2005 05:18:59p, "George" <george@least> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square
edge,
> > > breaks fiber to make passage.
> >
> > Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the
> > mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you
> > deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then
> > you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.
>
> No. The idea is to get the shoulders of the tenon to register against the
> face of the mortised board and keep them there.
>
> When you don't have clamps, or the clamps would be too large, as in house
> framing, you draw bore.
>
> You really need to learn some woodworking, and it will involve some
> thinking.
>
> If you drive a round peg into an undersized round hole it will split the
> piece. Force is applied evenly around the peg, finds the weakest place -
> along the grain - to gain room. With a traditional square or whittled
peg,
> the force on the edges pushes fibers aside or even severs them to make
room
> without splitting.
>
>
It is even better if the square pin is the same width as the hole diameter
then there is no chance of splitting. I have chairs made in the 1730s that
have pegged tenons and they are as tight now as the day they were made .the
offset between the motice and tenon hole is about 1/32" to 1/16"...mjh

"mike hide" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
>> them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
>> "persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
>> then we are in agreement.
>>
>> Dave
>>
> A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
> force fit..
>
> A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
> this thread is about isn't it?
> obviously CW and David disagree....mjh
>

Excuse the interruption, but a "loose" tenon only means that the tenon is a
separate piece of wood.

It's a square dowel that can be as wide or long as necessary.

"Patriarch" wrote in message

> BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a
> little bit.

I was running through erasing duplicates, got distracted and erased that
particular show before I even got to see it. (I guess really do _need_ one
more shop tool - a dvd recorder to hook up to my cable set top box.)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/05

Dan wrote:

> On Sun 22 May 2005 12:20:15p, gregg <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a
>> guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.
>>
>> His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently
>> his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how
>> tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.
>
> Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.
>
> For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on
> the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a
> dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you
> hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole
> about a 16th or so back.

Back towards the shoulder...(just to be sure we are on the same page)

>Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip
> of the dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest
> of the way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull
> into the mortise.
>
> Am I correct?

that's how I understand the process.

>I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up
> the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole,
> then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side
> you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.
>
> Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things
> that could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too
> close to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed
> it up.
>
> Dan


In this article the guy made a drawbore M&T, and then sawed through it to
show you what happens to the pin..it deforms into a very slight U shape.
This shape also helps to lock the pin in, according to the woodworker.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

Lobby Dosser wrote:

> gregg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for a good read!!


you're welcome. Thanks for the kind words.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You aren't serious, are you Mike?
>
> "As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
> joint, but I'm betting you already know that...
>
> Dave
>
> mike hide wrote:
>
> > "stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>This has probably been asked before, but...
> >>
> >>I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him
cut
> >
> > a
> >
> >>"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
> >>
> >>Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware
of?
> >>Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> >>make?
> >>
> >>I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from
him.
> >>Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
> >>
> >>Confused...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make
the
> > right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
> > good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
> > ...mjh


I meant exactly what I said.

In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh

"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him
> cut a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>

You just recently started watching. He does loose tenons with a plunge
router quite regularly, when it makes more sense. The three axis motion of
the Multirouter is fine when the pieces fit the tables well enough, but if
the project gets large, the value is reduced.

Some of the benches and tables, where he cuts the joinery in solid stock,
then shapes to curves, are much easier to do with the plunge router than
with the Multirouter.

DJM seems to look for projects to show how various tools and processes are
used, as though the process shown is at least as important as the finished
product. That's one of the reasons I watch him.

Norm's good, too.

BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a
little bit. That's another style of show I like. Norm has done a few of
these, and Roy does them several times a season.

Find a project to try the loose tenons. You'll be pleased.

Patriarch

On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, [email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
> integral tenons?

I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on
three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half
lap joints.

It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do*
remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and
they couldn't really give a good explanation why.

The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the
loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both
the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no
realworld difference.

And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood
to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to
batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever
you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will
ALWAYS fit nice and snug.

And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The
only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make
a nice-looking through tenon.

On Sun 22 May 2005 12:20:15p, gregg <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a
> guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.
>
> His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently
> his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how
> tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.

For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on
the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a
dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you
hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole about
a 16th or so back. Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip of the
dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest of the
way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull into
the mortise.

Am I correct? I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up
the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole,
then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side
you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.

Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things that
could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too close
to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed it up.

Dan

"J&KCopeland" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I have NOT bought one of these, yet, and I would certainly appreciate
> any downside to the system, that I'm not seeing.......

Works as advertised. You sometimes have to heat up the tenon stock
to shrink it to fit because it absorbs a little moisture. And put the
drill in the hole a few times to make a nice clean hole...


ken

On Sun 22 May 2005 04:42:08p, charlie b <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to
> hold a M&T joint together without the use
> of glue
> CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG
> AND
> CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON

Ow.

> Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get
> your attention.

S'okay. Just wasn't expecting it, that's all.

> By chamfering the
> end of the peg and the the hole they'll
> self align Rather than SPLITTING!

I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the
hole.
Thank you. :-)

> DAMHKT.

:-)

"mike hide" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
>
> dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make
> the right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them
> .in the good old days you would have been out the door if you made
> loose tenons ...mjh
>

Mike,

Were you criticizing integral tenons, improperly fitted?

Because I was thinking we were discussing what is sometimes called a
'floating tenon'.

I'm loathe to have an argument where there is no disagreement. ;-) Those I
can find at home.

Patriarch

"mike hide" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
> what this thread is about isn't it?

Loose tenons and floating tenons are often used as synonymns, hence some of
the confusion.

For example: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00118.asp

I disagree with none of what you, Mike, have written in this thread.

Patriarch

On Mon 23 May 2005 05:18:59p, "George" <george@least> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square edge,
> breaks fiber to make passage.

Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the
mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you
deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then
you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.

Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote in news:42972420.7B6094D2
@swko.dot.net:
<snip>
> A similar case is wiring inside a wall--many make it as neat as they can
> "just because" even though it all gets covered over and the electrons
> don't care...

And another thread devolves into an electrical wiring discussion... ;-)

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:49:18 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
> >> them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
> >> "persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
> >> then we are in agreement.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not
a
> >force fit..
> >
> >A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
what
> >this thread is about isn't it?
>
> No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method
> of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises
> and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so
> completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual
> obtuse self.
>
> >obviously CW and David disagree....
>
> And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up
>
>
> --
> LRod
>
Being my usual Obtuse self, I read the original post by Stoutman, perhaps
you should also . There is no mention of the method of constuction, just
that they are loose tenons

.Even though I have never seen David Mark's program let alone ever heard of
him . So what would a brilliant person like yourself by name a loose tenon
might be ? surely not a lousy fitting tenon.....mjh

"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
> a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...

This was demonstrated on diynet..

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_tools/article/0,2037,DIY_13936_3119901,00.html

The process is no more complicated than creating a dowel joint, (and in
fact, the drill jig could be used to create dowel holes if desired.) The
secret is that once the jig is clamped to the workpiece, and you drill a set
of holes, there is a slide mechanism, that allows the jig to move exactly
half the distance between the holes. Sounds complicated, but after watching
a demonstration, it is a very simple process.

(shims are provided in the kit, if offset tenons are to be used.)

http://www.beadlock.com/ sells the jig and the necessary router bits to
create just about any size, or length of loose tenons, that you would desire
or you can buy the tenon stock premade. (The router bits to make the tenon
stock cost more that then jig...)

I have NOT bought one of these, yet, and I would certainly appreciate any
downside to the system, that I'm not seeing.......

James...

"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> As for having a "sloppy joint" - there are instances where a little
> "slop" actually can be a good idea - a table apron to leg joint for
> example. Having a little slop at the top of the tenon gives the
> tenon a place to expand without blowing the top of the leg off.
> You've got vertical grain for the legs and horizontal grain
> for the apron. The cross grain in the tenon will expand more
> than the vertical grain in the leg. If there's not place set
> aside for that expansion it will try anyway. The tenon will
> either compress and get tighter OR it will make the space
> by moving some wood above it at the top of the leg.

This is where all of the discussion here about wood swelling with moisture
etc., goes a little astray. First off - yes it does swell with moisture, I
am aware. But... look at the myriad of jointery around you that has
survived decades or longer without suffering the expansion problems that are
talked about here so frequently and ask yourself what is wrong with this
picture that there is so much discussion about 1/8" of movment across grain,
or 8% humidity, etc. but there are so few broken joints in the furniture
around you. We get so focused on one aspect of things that we sometimes
overlook everything else. Sure, moisture causes swelling - to exposed and
uncontrolled wood. Wood that is secured as a tenon in a mortice does not
absorb moisture in the same way that unsecured wood does. The rates that we
see published for wood expansion and moisture absorbtion are for raw,
unsecured wood. They do not apply to sealed wood and they do not apply to
wood that is secured as in a mortice and tenon. The mortice acts to keep
the tenon compressed such that it can only absorb a certain amount of
moisture, therefore a very controlled amount of expansion. Throw it under
water if you want, but unless the glue disolves, the joint is not going to
fail due to moisture absorbtion until the entire asssembly absorbs enough
water to distort the whole piece. That would be far more than you'd ever
see in environmental changes. Joined pieces of wood (with such interactive
techniques as mortice and tenon) are simply not the same as raw wood and do
not behave the way wood charts would imply for moisture absorbtion. Once
again - look around at how few joints you can see that have actually failed,
and then look to see why they failed. Most did not fail due to the joint
being too tight and not allowing for moisture absorbtion.

>
> It seems "spit tight" is what to shoot for. The tenon should
> fit snug enough to go in and out with just moderate hand
> pressure - no dead blow hammer, no mallet whacking etc..
> But if you spit on the tenon and then seat it, it should
> swell enough to make getting the joint apart difficult.

That does indeed make for a nice, precision fit, but it would not be correct
to suggest that a dead blow tight fit is somehow less strong or long lived.
I have put many joints together that took some pretty good persuasion to
fit, and years and years later, they are still there, just as they were when
the project was built. I have to admit, when I have to resort to a little
persuasion, it's generally because I'm rushing it along in some way and
simply did not want to spend any more time to make it that little bit more
perfect - but - the joint does not fail.

>
> And tight also means leaving some place for a) glue inside
> to go (mortise a little deeper than the tenon is long) and
> b) some place for compressing the air trapped in front
> of the tenon as it seats or someway for it to get out of the
> joint.

I agree but I generally find that all jointery has that required amount of
slop just by the nature of the woodworking and the material at hand.

>
> If you've ever worked from a "plan" and cut all your
> parts BEFORE putting them together you know that
> somewhere amongst all the given dimensions there's
> at least one that's wrong. Working progressively
> you can get dimensions off what you have. It isn't
> important that a part be 22 31/32nds but rather
> that if fit between the parts it's suppose to fit between.

Now that's a man that's talking some good stuff!

>
> I can "take the line", "split the line" and "leave the
> line" more often than I can read a tape properly ; )
> (ok - tell me you've never made a part an inch short)
>

All right Charlie - you've been looking over my shoulder, haven't you?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:02:58 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:49:18 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
> >> >what this thread is about isn't it?
> >>
> >> No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method
> >> of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises
> >> and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so
> >> completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual
> >> obtuse self.
> >>
> >> >obviously CW and David disagree....
> >>
> >> And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up
> >
> >Being my usual Obtuse self, I read the original post by Stoutman, perhaps
> >you should also . There is no mention of the method of constuction, just
> >that they are loose tenons
>
> The one whose subject is "David Marks and Loose Tenons" as can clearly
> be seen in the subject line of this post as well as the others to
> which you've responded? I read it.
>
> >.Even though I have never seen David Mark's program let alone ever heard
of
> >him.
>
> Then what earthly reason is there for you to insert yourself in a
> thread in which fully half of the subject concerns David Marks and the
> other half a process with which you are clearly unknowledgable?
>
> You're as bad as toller giving electrical advice
>> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

Again read the first post in this thread by Stoutman ,not the one you choose
to suit your purposes.

I was not concerned with the author but with the subject, loose tenons. I
assure you I do know what a tenon is and exactly what a loose tenon is by
general woodworking standards.

Your assumption that I am unknowledgable about " Loose Tenons" as defined
by Marks has absolutely no basis ,you have no idea what I do or not know.

As a matter of fact you would appear to be a nasty little know-it-all
yourself., Being that it is surprizing you bother with mister Marks or the
subject matter as it all has to be old hat to you.....mjh

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon 23 May 2005 05:18:59p, "George" <george@least> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square
edge,
> > > breaks fiber to make passage.
> >
> > Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the
> > mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you
> > deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then
> > you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.
>
> No. The idea is to get the shoulders of the tenon to register against the
> face of the mortised board and keep them there.
>
> When you don't have clamps, or the clamps would be too large, as in house
> framing, you draw bore.
>
> You really need to learn some woodworking, and it will involve some
> thinking.
>
> If you drive a round peg into an undersized round hole it will split the
> piece. Force is applied evenly around the peg, finds the weakest place -
> along the grain - to gain room. With a traditional square or whittled
peg,
> the force on the edges pushes fibers aside or even severs them to make
room
> without splitting.
>
>

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
> them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
> "persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
> then we are in agreement.
>
> Dave
>
A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
force fit..

A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
this thread is about isn't it?
obviously CW and David disagree....mjh

David Marks calls them 'Loose Tenon'. As does Gary Rogowski in his book
JOINERY.

http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/Loose_Tenon_Joinery_90627.asp

Above is a link to Marks's web page with an explanation for his madness. I
found it AFTER i posted my question.





"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "mike hide" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
>> what this thread is about isn't it?
>
> Loose tenons and floating tenons are often used as synonymns, hence some
> of
> the confusion.
>
> For example: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00118.asp
>
> I disagree with none of what you, Mike, have written in this thread.
>
> Patriarch

gregg <[email protected]> wrote:

> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>
>

Thanks for a good read!!

charlie b <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting discussion.
>

And the diagram on your web site is one of the best I've ever seen. I'v
bookmarked the site. Thanks.

On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:02:58 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:49:18 -0400, "mike hide" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
>> >what this thread is about isn't it?
>>
>> No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method
>> of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises
>> and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so
>> completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual
>> obtuse self.
>>
>> >obviously CW and David disagree....
>>
>> And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up
>
>Being my usual Obtuse self, I read the original post by Stoutman, perhaps
>you should also . There is no mention of the method of constuction, just
>that they are loose tenons

The one whose subject is "David Marks and Loose Tenons" as can clearly
be seen in the subject line of this post as well as the others to
which you've responded? I read it.

>.Even though I have never seen David Mark's program let alone ever heard of
>him.

Then what earthly reason is there for you to insert yourself in a
thread in which fully half of the subject concerns David Marks and the
other half a process with which you are clearly unknowledgable?

You're as bad as toller giving electrical advice.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. <g>
> >
> > M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".
> >
> > NOW I find out you were talking pegged...
> >
>
> Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load
direction,
> the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
> movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or
draw
> boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be
omitted
> or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.
>
> If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
> rungs on any chair.
>
>
Tenons are subject to two loading conditions and hopefully not three . The
third a longitudinal load ,would call for a dovetail joint as opposed to a
modern mortice and tenon.[non pegged]. A pegged tenon would even take some
longitudinal load .

An unpegged tenon basically is subject to bending and shear loads . The
shear load is applied at 90 degrees to the tenons length, thus the load will
crush the glue film [which has thickness with a sloppy tenon /mortice.fit]
between the bottom of the tenon and the bottom mortice surface until the
shear load is resisted . this will result in a compression in the lower glue
thickness and a tension in the upper one with commensurate strains
[movement].

The second loading is due to the moment the load causes . This load results
in a point loading of the lower outer edge of the mortice and the upper
inner edge of the mortice . The former results in even more deformation of
the glue layer [in addition to that resulting from the shear load ] and a
reverse deformation at the upper inside of the tenon/mortice .

This loading condition occurs whether the tenon is pegged or not. The pegged
haunched tenon does somewhat better as the effctively the peg keeps the
tenon "engaged" and tight allowing the haunch to spread the bending loads..

The bottom line is in the case of a tight fitting mortice and tenon the glue
joint thicknesses are mininized resulting in the basic wood taking the loads
directly rather than allowing the loads to be transferred through the glue
thicknesses for which it is ill suited to do . Wood to wood contact results
in less flexure and longer joint life .

having a sloppy joint is akin the having a poor edge to edge joint and
hoping in the poorly fitting sactions that the glue will take the load ,we
all know how that works ....mjh

I googled a little and was able to answer my own question. oops.

http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/Loose_Tenon_Joinery_90627.asp

I think he has convinced me to try loose m&t's on my next project.





"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
> a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...
>

"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a
> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...
>
>

dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
...mjh

On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:11 -0700, the inscrutable charlie b
<[email protected]> spake:

>stoutman wrote:
>>
>> This has probably been asked before, but...
>>
>> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
>> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>>
>> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
>> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
>> make?
>>
>> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
>> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>>
>> Confused...
>
> Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon
> joinery.
>
> 1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can
> be their actual length NOT their actual length
> PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to
> make a mistake

Yeah, and two fewer chances, too. <gd&r>


> 2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon
> width and planed to the needed thickness you
> can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross
> cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're
> not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the
> wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed
> rail.

Ayup, and you can't just make the bed a bit shorter. Mattresses and
box springs don't squish much in length. ;)


> 3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood
> you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the
> tenon really strong - try ebony!

Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had
the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

You aren't serious, are you Mike?

"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
joint, but I'm betting you already know that...

Dave

mike hide wrote:

> "stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>This has probably been asked before, but...
>>
>>I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
>
> a
>
>>"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>>
>>Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
>>Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
>>make?
>>
>>I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
>>Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>>
>>Confused...
>>
>>
>
>
> dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
> right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
> good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
> ...mjh
>
>

Biscuits construction isn't as stout as M&T; just quicker. I use both,
depending on what I want to achieve.

Dave

mrcomp_ca wrote:

> Let me add to the confusion.
>
> Would a biscuit and glue provide the same level of stregnth? I'm
> adding a bottom shelf to a coffee table and am trying to decide on the
> joinery for the shelf support. The shelf is 28" square made of makore.
> I'd like to use biscuit cause it's quick and I already have the tool.
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>

I just saw one of his shows today where he used a regular M&T joint. I would
imagine that the reason he doesn't use them more often is time. Loose
tennons are much faster. That's all I use.

"stoutman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a
> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...
>
>

On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:29:10 GMT, the inscrutable John Santos
<[email protected]> spake:

I said:
>> Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had
>> the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.
>
>I've noticed that David Marks always seems to use the same wood for
>the tenons as the pieces he's joining. I wondered if that was the
>reason why, or if it was just because there was usually plenty of
>scrap available. But why else use something expensive for the tenons
>since they don't show? Is there another reason or is it for stability?

Stability, but there's always scrap which can be used from each
project. By using the same wood in the same grain direction, he keeps
from having any trouble with different expansion rates. His loose
tenons don't explode the wood they're in during the humid seasons.


>(He also always veneers both sides of his base stock, and has
>explicitly said that's for stability, but often uses a different
>(nice, but cheaper) wood for the side that doesn't show.)

Right. It lessens cupping.


--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development

I don't know which type is better, but I PREFER to make loose tenons.
It seems less "fussy" to me.

Dave

stoutman wrote:

> This has probably been asked before, but...
>
> I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
> "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
>
> Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
> Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
> make?
>
> I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
> Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
>
> Confused...
>
>