I am using water based polyurethane to refinish oak kitchen cabinets.
This is the first time I have used water-based for anything. My
preference has been for oil based. I decided to use the water based
because of the shorter drying time. The product is brand new,
purchased only days ago for this project.
But I have a problem. When I apply it, it seems to not "wet" the
surface. Rather it kind of beads up much as water does on a well waxed
car. I can smooth is out with additional brush strokes and/or more
product but I fear that it is not adhering to the wood and is destined
to fall off. I have prepared the wood with light sanding and/or scotch
bright to smooth the bumps and provide tooth.
What am I doing wrong? Does the water base requre some additional
preparation over old work??
Thanks, Eric
Sun, Jan 6, 2008, 9:42pm (EST-3) [email protected] (RubEric) doth query:
<snip> What am I doing wrong? Does the water base requre some additional
preparation over old work??
You left out a lot of details I'd say. But the first thing I would
have done, is use the 1-800 number on the back of the can.
JOAT
You can't always judge by appearances, the early bird may have been up
all night.
On Jan 6, 11:42=A0pm, RubEric <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am using water based polyurethane to refinish oak >kitchen cabinets.
SNIP
> What am I doing wrong? =A0Does the water base requre >some additional pre=
paration over old work??
Eric, there will be many opinions on this, and this is my take. If I
HAD to use water based over an existing finish, I would wash the
surface well to remove as much grime and dead finish as possible.
Then I would sand the hell out of it, then wash it again with either
mineral spirits or lacquer thinner (I always use lacquer thinner).
Then a coat of 1# cut dewaxed shellac (Zinnser sanding sealer or
similar). Then a scuff sand, then clean again.
Then apply the finish.
If you are confident in your application equipment and its spotlessly
clean condition before application, the probable reason your finish is
beading up is that the surface is contaminated. By simply smoothing
out material, your worst fears will be realized. It is beading for
one reason or another, but beading means no adhesion. I may be OK for
a while, but not long term.
If I were in your shoes, I would take a drawer or cabinet door off and
do the procedures above. Don't commit your whole set of cabinets
right off.
If it works when you reapply, ask yourself if you really want to do
all of that... just to use water based. I have found in my personal
experience that solvent based is a lot more forgiving. The downside
of course is that if you are doing this to your own house, the solvent
based will keep you out of it for several hours, and maybe a couple of
days with mulitple coats.
Other factors can also affect your refinishing. What was the original
finish? If these are factory cabinets, they can be finished anything
from a cheap lacquer that is heat set, to a pre-cat lacquer baked in
an infared oven. If it is a builder/homeowner cabinet, it may be
anything from varnish to polyurethane. All will respond to your
efforts differently.
Also, you didn't say what kind of WB finish you are using. Skip the
Home Depot/Lowes stuff. Go to a real paint store and get ML Campbell,
Fuhr, Sherwyn Williams, etc. They are more pricey, but all of those
extra dollars translate into that much better of a product.
Good luck!
Others will follow...
Robert
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:44fef922-e3a9-4bd4-a044-cab27f1dfaba@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 6, 11:42 pm, RubEric <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am using water based polyurethane to refinish oak >kitchen cabinets.
SNIP
> What am I doing wrong? Does the water base requre >some additional
> preparation over old work??
Eric, there will be many opinions on this, and this is my take. If I
HAD to use water based over an existing finish, I would wash the
surface well to remove as much grime and dead finish as possible.
Then I would sand the hell out of it, then wash it again with either
mineral spirits or lacquer thinner (I always use lacquer thinner).
Then a coat of 1# cut dewaxed shellac (Zinnser sanding sealer or
similar). Then a scuff sand, then clean again.
Then apply the finish.
If you are confident in your application equipment and its spotlessly
clean condition before application, the probable reason your finish is
beading up is that the surface is contaminated. By simply smoothing
out material, your worst fears will be realized. It is beading for
one reason or another, but beading means no adhesion. I may be OK for
a while, but not long term.
If I were in your shoes, I would take a drawer or cabinet door off and
do the procedures above. Don't commit your whole set of cabinets
right off.
I agree but you really need to find out what the contamination is. I suspect
two things at this point.
1) How long have the cabinets been sitting there before you started to
refinish? If it has been awhile, it could be a build up of grease. If so, a
natural degreaser (not the heavy industrial types) will want to be applied
before sanding. Otherwise all you will do is sand the grease in.
2) If it hasn't been too long or you have cleaned the cabinets, I suspect an
oil based finish. Read above for that.
Been there.....I have an old house that has lots of mahogny trim. The
previous owner never really took care of it and let there (cobb and carve it
up) children do the maintenance on it. They put on a water based stain/poly
all in one product over varnish. The surfaces are rougher than the sandpaper
I tried at first. I am now using a heavy duty stripper, stripping only 1-2
feet of baseboard a day on the weekend. It is the only way I can get any
finish to adhere.
YMMV
Allen
On Jan 7, 7:10=A0am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> due to years of kitchen grease, Pledge, waxes, and >cleaning products.
Yup. I have often thought that Pledge has more silicones in it than
WD40.
> Seal Coat will seal just about anything in, forming a thin, >but solid ba=
rrier coat. =A0_Any_ finish can be used over >Seal Coat, regardless of formu=
lation. =A0It should be in >every woodworking shop.
Barry - have you tried the new water based shellac? It's not actually
*new*, it has been out for about a year or so. i haven't seen
anything more than guys daring each other to try it out. I can't
imagine what kind of gawdawful chemicals they used to dissolve the
shellac which to this point has required fairly hot (high VOCs)
solvents.
> Don't forget the personal protection. =A0WB products are >often bigger he=
alth hazards than solvent based products >during application.
I don't use personal protection anymore. 19 years with the same
woman, and I'm feeling good about things. And we have found that some
of the newer water based products are actually tasty and easy to
cleanup in the shower.... wait.... what are we talking about here?....
are we still talking about finishing?... Damn you broken backspace
key!
> Oddly enough, I pay less for some "pro" brands than >inferior home center =
products.
OK, now no more kidding. That pisses me off. Our local vendors STILL
won't stock MLC, and to just about everyone that uses wb on a daily
basis, that stuff is the best. I don't get it. MLC is only sold
through a vendor network around here, and we have just two that stock
it. I can order it, but they want me to buy a case of 4 singles just
to test it out. So I still haven't tried any.
I guess sometime at one of these open house fairs they have the MLC
guy will be forced to come and maybe he can give me a quart or two.
I always think about Roger Phelps. He told me that he had refinished
about 1,000 kitchens (!!!!) in his time of cabinet finishing. He
loved MLC Ultrastar so much I think he would have married a barrel if
he could have. In fact, he liked it so much that he told me if I had
any questions using it with the Fuji setup to call him (about MLC
products!) and he would walk me through it. A helluva an endorsement.
Robert
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Barry - have you tried the new water based shellac?
No reason to, so far... I see that as a problem that didn't need
solving. <G>
Seal Coat works just fine, thank you.
>
>> Oddly enough, I pay less for some "pro" brands than >inferior home center products.
>
> I guess sometime at one of these open house fairs they have the MLC
> guy will be forced to come and maybe he can give me a quart or two.
>
> I always think about Roger Phelps. He told me that he had refinished
> about 1,000 kitchens (!!!!) in his time of cabinet finishing. He
> loved MLC Ultrastar so much I think he would have married a barrel if
> he could have.
I'm getting a visual of Roger in a tux, next to a barrel in a wedding dress!
[email protected] wrote:
>
>
> Then a coat of 1# cut dewaxed shellac (Zinnser sanding sealer or
> similar). Then a scuff sand, then clean again.
>
> Then apply the finish.
What he said! Zinnser Seal Coat is available at any good paint store,
accept no substitutes.
Water based products are far more sensitive to surface contaminants than
many solvent based products. Refinishing can be even more difficult,
due to years of kitchen grease, Pledge, waxes, and cleaning products.
Seal Coat will seal just about anything in, forming a thin, but solid
barrier coat. _Any_ finish can be used over Seal Coat, regardless of
formulation. It should be in every woodworking shop.
Don't forget the personal protection. WB products are often bigger
health hazards than solvent based products during application.
> Also, you didn't say what kind of WB finish you are using. Skip the
> Home Depot/Lowes stuff. Go to a real paint store and get ML Campbell,
> Fuhr, Sherwyn Williams, etc. They are more pricey, but all of those
> extra dollars translate into that much better of a product.
Oddly enough, I pay less for some "pro" brands than inferior home center
products.