Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.
Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
as of late.
Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?
Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?
Thanks,
Greg G.
"BB" wrote in message
> yourself - I had a couple of piano movers take a full size upright down a
> set of steep stairs by themselves and it weighs more than the Uni -
remember
> your physics class and use the correct items to make it easier and safer.
A few years ago I had a piano picked up after a flood by a restorer and his
smallish 16 year old daughter (a sad story in itself as I found out later,
as her mother had died when she was three and it had been her dad and her
against the world ever since).
In any event, these two moved that piano down four steps, out to the curb
and loaded it into the back of a pickup with a camper on it, by themselves,
without breaking a sweat, and in less time than it takes to tell ... it was
one of the most magnificent displays of choreographed physics I've ever
witnessed. Archimedes would have been proud.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05
RonB said:
>decided to expand my search. They weren't what they used to be and frankly
>they haven't improved since (Handwheel brake nuts for example).
I hear ya - that funky T thing is a departure from the nice old knobs.
>My final decision did come down to Unisaw, Grizzly 1023S and the Jets. The
>1023 won based on value and the fact it reminded me so much of the earlier
>Unisaws. This included both visual and tactile impressions (smooth
>handwheels, tabletop machining/flatness, specifications, sound, vibration,
>etc.) I do believe the Unisaw is still a fine machine but I cannot
>personally justify the extra hundreds of dollars for the brand name. My
>machine has served me well for four years, requires very little adjustment,
>and Grizzly delivery support is great. I have never had to use their
>product support.
>
>So There!
>RonB
I hear you again! I've always wanted a Unisaw, but when it comes to
laying out cold, hard cash - they worry me these days. Still, I
prefer to buy American products and support my neighbors whenever
possible - but I am tiring of being burned by that desire.
It's getting to the point where when I see Made in USA, it's worse
garbage than the Chinese crap - which is steadily improving.
I live in the SE, and there are no Grizzly dealers. Makes it more
difficult to access their products. But the 1023 looks like a very
nice machine.
Greg G.
I've been looking to upgrade my TS for awhile now. I've been eyeing
the 1023S for awhile, so when I saw your post asking about the Unisaw
for $1299, my first thought was no, but I don't have experience with
either to advise from actual use. Although, I did read some reviews
from some very impressed people on Amazon regarding the 1023S, so I
would have a hard time spending an extra $400 (or $375 for the SL) on
a refurbished Unisaw.
Many of the pros here could probably justify the extra $400, but for my
budding shop I'd rather put that extra $$ on a Grizzly 14" band saw.
There's delivery charges to consider as well. The local Unisaw dealer
won't charge you freight.
JMHO
Jeff
I have a Unisaw and I love it, but problems such as a warped extension
table and slightly warped left wing have left me wondering if I would
ever purchase another Delta product. My DJ-20 joiner has a small pit in
the outfeed table. Not enough to take it back, but the quality
assurance just wasn't there. I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
to be a crap shoot. The folks who seem to get it right, in my opinion,
these days are the Canadians. The quality of tools from Canada is to me
impressive. Just my opinion.
Don
Greg,
I bought a factory reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago from
Redmond Machinery in Atlanta. My story is long and I won't repeat it
here. If you want to read it, cut & past this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/f1c910e450248873/2453276751add9d8?q=donkeyhody+unisaw+saga&rnum=1#2453276751add9d8
Bottom line is that I've been very pleased with my saw, and the way
Redmond Machinery took care of me. I have found NOTHING different from
a brand-new never-used saw. I'd buy a factory reconditioned saw again
in a heartbeat.
DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."
Greg G. wrote:
> Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
> 50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
> They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.
>
> Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
> better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
> happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
> as of late.
>
> Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
> feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
> plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
> Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?
>
> Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Greg G.
That would be the way to do it, if you had the time. Get a bargain on a
vintage unisaw, have the top flatground, buy a modern motor and link
belts and off you go. The first thing I was disapointed with when I
received my unisaw a couple of years ago was the thickness, or thiness,
of the base sheetmetal. I haven't looked at older unisaws, but they
must be thicker.
Swingman wrote:
> "BB" wrote in message
>
> > yourself - I had a couple of piano movers take a full size upright down a
> > set of steep stairs by themselves and it weighs more than the Uni -
> remember
> > your physics class and use the correct items to make it easier and safer.
>
> A few years ago I had a piano picked up after a flood by a restorer and his
> smallish 16 year old daughter (a sad story in itself as I found out later,
> as her mother had died when she was three and it had been her dad and her
> against the world ever since).
>
> In any event, these two moved that piano down four steps, out to the curb
> and loaded it into the back of a pickup with a camper on it, by themselves,
> without breaking a sweat, and in less time than it takes to tell ... it was
> one of the most magnificent displays of choreographed physics I've ever
> witnessed. Archimedes would have been proud.
>
Back around '71, I was living in a second floor apartment in Albany,
NY. Brownstone. Up to the stoop, which was about 8 or 9 stairs. Then up
a full, narrow flight with a sharp turn at the very top...first floor
ceilings were at least 10' tall, so lots of steps. We bought a new
refrigerator. One guy delivered it. I just looked at him, from my 6'2"
and 185 pounds (them days are gone forever). He was maybe 5'9 and about
140 pounds, my father's size and weight. I figured I was going to have
to help, but he lowered the box off the truck by himself with two
straps. He then pulled the cardboard off, slipped a line around it, and
hooked that to a tump line around his forehead and slowly walked that
300+ pound icebox up those two flights, walked through the hall and set
it in place in the kitchen.
I stood there with my mouth open, during which period he leveled it and
plugged it in and took the 10 buck tip I handed him.
Greg G.<[email protected]> writes:
>Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
>better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
>happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
>as of late.
I bought a refurbished Unisaw in 2002. The serial number indicated that
it was built in 1999. I would have thought it was brand new if I didn't
know it was a refurb.
In my case, it included the magnetic switch that usually costs several
hundred extra on a new one.
The 1999 models still had the metal cover over the motor.
The quality of the fit and finish is very good. I like to support made in
the USA when possible and it makes sense. (I'll buy the $3 chinese tool
for a one-time project instead of the USA made one that costs $12.)
Brian Elfert
Swingman said:
>"BB" wrote in message
>
>> yourself - I had a couple of piano movers take a full size upright down a
>> set of steep stairs by themselves and it weighs more than the Uni -
>remember
>> your physics class and use the correct items to make it easier and safer.
>
>A few years ago I had a piano picked up after a flood by a restorer and his
>smallish 16 year old daughter (a sad story in itself as I found out later,
>as her mother had died when she was three and it had been her dad and her
>against the world ever since).
>
>In any event, these two moved that piano down four steps, out to the curb
>and loaded it into the back of a pickup with a camper on it, by themselves,
>without breaking a sweat, and in less time than it takes to tell ... it was
>one of the most magnificent displays of choreographed physics I've ever
>witnessed. Archimedes would have been proud.
OK - you all have convinced me. It's not that big of a problem.
If one old man and a young lady can move piano - all I have to do is
think positive and use the laws of physics to my advantage.
I used to occasionally deliver (1980s) Big Screen TVs to our more
picky customers, 'cause our delivery crews were a bunch of animals.
We had to pay for Delft plates, broken door trim, etc. One guy
grabbed what he thought was a "rock" from the landscaping and tossed
it under the wheels of the van (due to a steep grade). The customer
had an absolute fit. Turned out it was some sort of imported oriental
"lawn art".
Anyway, granted a BS isn't quite as heavy as a tablesaw, but if I can
haul one of those alone, I shouldn't have a problem moving a 500 lb.
saw to the ground from the bed of a truck, and 15 feet into the shop.
I'll send you guys a card from the hospital... ;-)
I just hope to hell I get a flat table. The contractor saw I bought
years ago had such a severe hump in the top, right at the blade
opening (the mill skipped, probably due to too heavy a cut), that it
would leave a wave on the end of a cut. That was almost the end of my
woodworking, as I found I could make a better cut with a circular saw.
I read a few books by Ian Kirby and Kelly Meyer, and figured out what
was wrong. I ground some of it down myself and starting using a
cutoff sled and that helped considerably. But it's still not great -
just functional. For 3 times the price, I want this sucker *perfect*.
So, a couple more stupid questions.
Does this come assembled on a pallet?
What does the table weigh?
(i.e. - Would it be beneficial to remove the table before unloading?
I have dial indicators and micrometers for re-alignment and would
probably do it anyway - just to be sure and to check out the
innards...)
Greg G.
Swingman said:
>"Greg G." wrote in message
>
>> I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
>> denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
>
>Old news (there's a contradiction in terms for you) ... IIRC, that problem,
>not all that prevalent in the first place considering the number of units
>sold, was addressed/solved at last two or three years ago.
This was last year - the last time I was caught drooling over a new
saw...
Being a local dealer, however, I would think the problem of subsequent
shipping damage would rest squarely on the purchasers shoulders.
>Certainly not something to kill a deal unless one is looking for an excuse,
>IMO.
My problem at this point would be how to get the darned thing off my
truck with only two helpers - one of them being a large, but wimpy,
friend and the other being SWMBO. Partial disassembly on the pallet
would help - but I'm not sure. They claim a weight of ~450 pounds,
but from the horror stories I've read concerning moving heavy saws...
I AM lucky to have a drive the runs right up to the door, however.
No 250' treks across a wet lawn, down a hill, and around a curving
staircase.
Greg G.
Upscale said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
>
>Well, you could take a trip up to see us in Canada. We've got original home
>grown fur polar bear underwear. Guaranteed down to -50°F. And if you're
>really lucky, you might find one or two 4" bear claws still attached to the
>underwear. Also guaranteed to make sure you wake up quick when dressing
>first thing in the morning.
Sounds like you had company that night, and attempted to don the wrong
furry thing the next morning. And there is one thing I *don't* want
near my genetic jewels, it is a resentful 800lb bear and a sharp set
of 4" claws. Nothing could be worse after a 4 bear night, eh?...
But seriously, (if that is possible at this point), I don't think
polar bear underwear would be very comfortable in the SE US.
It's not THAT cold... and would most likely look like I had a severe
sphincter malfunction. <g>
Man, has THIS drifted off topic!
Greg G.
BB said:
>
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> BB said:
>>
>> >"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
>> >
>> >Visit your local thrift shop - it may be used but usually is still in
>good
>> >working order and you will benefit the group that they are supporting. .
>.
>>
>> Do you really want to buy used underwear?
>> I mean, someone else's 'boys' have been in there... ;-)
>>
>> There may be a law that prohibits selling used underwear, I've never
>> seen any - but I could be wrong. Perhaps it's that no one buys it so
>> they don't bother putting it out.
>
>You had been talking about a TOASTER. . .
OK - I get it now.
But you posted the comment under the underwear portion.
At least I got a good laugh out of it.
Actually, when I lived in Florida, I frequented the local Salvation
Army and Goodwill stores quite a bit - not for cloths, but hardware.
Unfortunately, I rarely found anything worth buying. There are no
stores near where I live now - and it would require a trip into
downtown - a place I try my best to never go.
Greg G.
Edwin Pawlowski said:
>"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> You made me look. The kitchenAid (a Whirlpool brand) on our counter
>> claims to come from St. Joseph, Michigan.
>
>Since toaster flipping is a popular hobby, I took a close look at mine. It
>does say KA in Michigan, but the bottom of the label also says Made in
>China. I'd be surprised if there are any made in the US in the past 10
>years.
>
>At work we pack a lot of products in large poly bags. The best thing to
>seal them with is a Teflon coated household iron. I buy Black & Decker.
>When I first started buying them 15 years ago, they were $20 to $23
>(origins unknown). Now they are $13. What I don't understand is that I was
>willing to pay 20 bucks, so why go through a lot of contortions to sell them
>cheaper?
Cheaper, but higher profit margin. And you sell more of them, because
they break more often.
Greg G.
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:11:33 GMT, Ba r r y=20
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:39:30 +0000, joe2 <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> I called Woodworker=92s Supply
>>and told them, they called Delta, and a new base was sent out that day.
>>When the base arrived I called WW Supply again and asked how to swap
>>bases. DO NOT LEAN THE SAW OVER a very stern voice instructed me. IT
>>WILL BREAK THE TRUNNION. =20
>
>I would imagine simply leaning the saw over wouldn't break a cast iron
>part.
>
>Dropping the tool into that position, or transporting it that way
>might. It sounds as if the retailer was being a bit melodramatic.
>
>Barry
Maybe the weight of the saw against one side of the unit causes some flex=
on that side,
changing the inner dimensions of the casting and the stress gets focused =
at the mounting
point of the trunion attachments. I have not heard of people breaking =
them however.
Joe Brophy
CountryTech Computer
email: [email protected]
Frank Boettcher said:
>There has never been a problem with the torque setting at the factory
>on the trunion bracket bolts or any other improper assembly methods.
>This comment has been posted a number of times and regardless of the
>original source, it is not true.
>
>The package design has been ISTA tested with the appropriate inclined
>plane, straight drop and vibrations tests at an independent lab. It
>holds a transit tested rating. Even so, trunions would ocasionally
>break in shipment even when the package looked fine on arrival.
>
>In testing to try to find out why they were breaking the only way the
>trunions could be broken was to tip the unit over and have it land
>solidly on the front table edge. When this happened there was no
>packaging damage, the internal damage was concealed. You can't imagine
>how many sets I've observed broken during that testing process. It is
>kind of sickening to keep tipping a saw over just to see if you could
>get a statistical read on what would break.
>
>Changes made a number of years ago were to specifically address this
>issue. The red motor strap was removed, not to save money but because
>it was creating another problem. freight dock drivers would drive up
>on a running pickup and slam fork lift masts into the relatively
>unprotected end bell of the motor, breaking the end bell and sometimes
>the motor bracket. The change was to drop the motor down as far into
>the cabinet as possible, supporting it on the dust chute, to protect
>it and also to lower the center of gravity to make tip overs less
>likely.
>
>A device called a tilt watch was added to the package alerting a
>distributor to not accept the package from the freight carrier if the
>device had been activated. The only way it could be activated is if
>the freight dock person had tipped it over.
>
>The only design change on the trunion brackets and trunions was to
>increase the cross sections where there was breakage and to increase
>any radii to eliminate the notch effect on impact. There has been no
>reduction in the specifications for chemical or mechanical properties
>of the iron as was suggested in some old threads.
>
>There were a number of other changes to the pack to improve the
>shippability. And after any change the unit was transit tested again
>by an independent lab.
>
>A broken internal component is a small percentage of returns. Most
>are minor (cosmetic) freight damage or internal warehouse damage or
>distributor resets. Many come in and the refurb diagnosis indicates no
>apparent reason. However, the refurb process is outstanding. You will
>get a good saw if you buy refurb. My everyday use unisaw is a
>reconditioned unit.
>
>Why post now? It was/is a company policy not to respond to posts on
>unmoderated news groups. I no longer work for the company and I do
>not represent them with this post. It is, however, the truth.
Frank,
This was a very informative rundown on the problems associated with
the trunnions and as I suspected all along - improper handling by
shippers was the cause. I have never heard of one breaking in use.
I HAVE, however, see dock crews in action - and it is appalling.
I have worked at several large electronics distributors and the damage
caused by idiots on fork lifts was a source of considerable loss
within each company. I've seen them exceed clearly marked stacking
heights, run into equipment with fork lifts at top speed, and tip
equipment off the raised lifts.
My only real fear of a refurb saw is the same reason I work on my own
cars - stripped threads and fasteners. (Used to be a Mercedes
mechanic.) Scratches and dents I can live with. Stripped threads
will keep me up at night. I would hope that, like most production
facilities, you use torque limited air tools in the plant, but I have
no idea.
It is quite interesting to me to hear "war stories" concerning the
plant you managed and the tools I purchase. Feel free to pass along
any more you feel are interesting. For that matter, a tour of the
plant would be a blast. I've toured Ford, GM, and various electronics
plants - but never a stationary machine plant.
It is probably a mistake for management not to participate in this
forum, as long as it doesn't turn into a P.R. affair. After all,
these guys are your primary customers and their ideas are often quite
excellent.
Thanks,
Greg G.
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> You made me look. The kitchenAid (a Whirlpool brand) on our counter
> claims to come from St. Joseph, Michigan.
Since toaster flipping is a popular hobby, I took a close look at mine. It
does say KA in Michigan, but the bottom of the label also says Made in
China. I'd be surprised if there are any made in the US in the past 10
years.
At work we pack a lot of products in large poly bags. The best thing to
seal them with is a Teflon coated household iron. I buy Black & Decker.
When I first started buying them 15 years ago, they were $20 to $23
(origins unknown). Now they are $13. What I don't understand is that I was
willing to pay 20 bucks, so why go through a lot of contortions to sell them
cheaper?
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman said:
>
> >"Greg G." wrote in message
> >
> >> I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
> >> denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
> >
> >Old news (there's a contradiction in terms for you) ... IIRC, that
problem,
> >not all that prevalent in the first place considering the number of units
> >sold, was addressed/solved at last two or three years ago.
>
> This was last year - the last time I was caught drooling over a new
> saw...
>
> Being a local dealer, however, I would think the problem of subsequent
> shipping damage would rest squarely on the purchasers shoulders.
>
> >Certainly not something to kill a deal unless one is looking for an
excuse,
> >IMO.
>
> My problem at this point would be how to get the darned thing off my
> truck with only two helpers - one of them being a large, but wimpy,
> friend and the other being SWMBO. Partial disassembly on the pallet
> would help - but I'm not sure. They claim a weight of ~450 pounds,
> but from the horror stories I've read concerning moving heavy saws...
>
> I AM lucky to have a drive the runs right up to the door, however.
> No 250' treks across a wet lawn, down a hill, and around a curving
> staircase.
When I bought my 5HP Left Tilt Uni (500+ pounds) several years ago - I
brought it home on my utility trailer behind my van - Woodcraft warned me
to be careful and not drop it or bounce in the trailer (hit bumps on the
road et al ) as it could damage the trunion (when I unpacked it and set it
up there was a large very firm block of foam that the motor was resting on -
I kept this in case I ever have to move it) - When I got home I made a ramp
of 2x10 and slid it down to a moving dolly and then into the garage - the
key is taking it slow and easy - don't rush and you could even unload it by
yourself - I had a couple of piano movers take a full size upright down a
set of steep stairs by themselves and it weighs more than the Uni - remember
your physics class and use the correct items to make it easier and safer.
BB
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:ZC39f.5009
>
> Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too.
> As is some industrial products like forklift trucks (I've bought 4 of
them).
> My plan was to "buy American" but the American brand had imported engines
> and the foreign brand was made in Kentucky so that idea had no merit.
The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the construction
materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?
Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are the
same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?
> side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
> drove them in our plant.
The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
> joe2 wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so
> > for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get
> > around.
>
> About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
> $250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I
> could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.
We've a Prestige 'Aroma', dual, non sissy, full Monte, four banger bagel
toaster for about four years that I thought was a pretty damn good toaster
because that sucker has a timer SO F**&ING GOOD that it pops up PERFECTLY
toasted bread the EXACT _same_ second that my two morning eggs are done to
perfection!!
... until I read your post, that is. I just turned the damn thing over
(spreading crumbs all over the place in the process ... thanks a lot) and
DAMN me if it ain't <gasp> "Made in China"!
Now I feel screwed, despite the fact it's performed flawlessly for all that
time.
Jeeeezuss, what's this country coming to?!?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05
> I opted for the Delta product (new) because of the Biesemeyer fence, an
> upgraded
> Grizzly fence meant paying extra for a 2nd fence and getting stuck with
> one I didn't
> want or need.
Joe:
I really am not trying to pull your chain. However, I have seen comments
and confusion over the years regarding the need to replace the 1023S fence
with the upgraded Shop Fox or a Bies. The 1023S comes standard with the
Shop Fox Classic fence which is a pretty close Biesmemeyer knock-off. I
have this saw/fence combination on my 1023S. When I purchased my machine
Griz was also touting the 1023Z and variants that had the Shop Fox
"Precision" fence. In my opinion, and apparently others, the "Precision"
fence isn't necessarily a step up - even though it costs more. When we
visited the Springfield store just prior to my purchase (four years ago) I
mentioned some reports I had read regarding some "Precision" problems to our
sales rep. He diplomatically said that his machine had the "Classic" fence
and he would certainly buy it again. The "Precision" fence was truly as
smooth as glass in the store; but apparently it has several moving parts and
I have seen reports of clearance and adjustment issues (which might be
corrected by now).
The old "Classic" is built like a fire plug (or a Bies) and has required
very little adjustment over the years. I believe Griz is marketing an
aluminum version of the Classic now but I know nothing about it. My old
iron fence is heavy, smooth, accurate and easy to use.
RonB
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
> denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
When I was looking at cabinet saws about 6 years ago I compared a Unisaw and
a Jet side by side. The salesman walked over and told me not to try to
raise or tilt the blade on the Unisaw. The trunion was broken. That was the
first time I had heard of that problem but have 8 or 9 times since. Delta
blamed the trucking companies and yet Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, and others
were not having this problem. I suppose you could say the truckers were
targeting Unisaws. LOL. I think 2 or 3 years ago Delta finally admitted
that the trunions were not being properly torqued during assembly at the
factory.
> Apparently, however, if you do get an unbroken one, it doesn't
> subsequently break in service. But it IS worrysome... Is there a
> crack lurking in there - cast iron is funny like that...
That is the way I under stand it. The trip was just too hard on the
Unisaws.
> I would say, however, that dropping the saw on it's side - with a huge
> motor attached - would constitute undue and abnormal stress.
Absolutely, Unfortunately the Deltas were not being treated that badly.
"mogura" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
>> stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
>> parts from freight handlers.
>
> When have you heard this? I can't recall anything but good stories about
> their deliveries in the past couple of years.
Deliveries of wrecked equipment from Grizzly was a serious problem a few
years ago.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
> better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
> happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
> as of late.
Well Delta has had a problem with Unisaws in the last 7 or 8 years. The
factory was blaming the shippers and apparently they have finally admitted
to improper assembly methods. Trunions have been breaking at what I would
call an alarming rate. If the saw looks like new you have ask yourself why
it had to be refurbished as it should have lasted many many years. I would
say it is a good bet that the trunion had to be replaced. Something to
thhink about.
Ba r r y (in [email protected]) said:
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:57:31 -0600, "Morris Dovey"
| <[email protected]> wrote:
|
|| Swingman (in [email protected]) said:
||
||| Jeeeezuss, what's this country coming to?!?
||
|| You made me look. The kitchenAid (a Whirlpool brand) on our counter
|| claims to come from St. Joseph, Michigan.
|
| I've seen tons of stuff labeled "packed in USA", on the box, and the
| device inside is labeled with the actual country of origin.
Me too. This was on the back of the toaster itself. The box is long
gone.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the
> construction
> materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?
> Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
> management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are
> the
> same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?
My point is that although we like to buy American, some foreign makes are
superior. So superior that they now justify putting assembly plants in the
US. EVERY country is capable of making junk or making a quality product. It
is the management philosophy of the company that makes the difference,
followed by training and quality control To stay in business, a company has
to make a profit. To sustain sales, they have to make a product people want
to buy. While I've never owned a Japanese car, there are a couple of my
list to check out for my next purchase, probably next summer. It may be
another nail in the coffin for GM as most of my cars have been for many
years.
>
>> side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
>> drove them in our plant.
>
> The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
> quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?
Ease of use and operability too. Toyota has the best view through the mast
when driving forward, a big plus. Buying forklifts is worse than buying a
used car. The two salesmen were fiercely competing down to the last minutes.
I had one in the conference room and the other called twice trying to better
his deal. When both trucks were in our plant for test use, each salesman
pointed out why his was better in complete contradiction to the other. One
has a high air intake, the other low. Each says the other sucks in more
dust. One has controls low, the other high, each says his were less tiring
to use and more ergonomic.
We went from one truck to two, then to four in the past six years, but the
real price negotiation was for the first. We maintain the same price level.
They make very little on the truck sale , but they make money on the
quarterly service for years.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
> stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
> parts from freight handlers.
When have you heard this? I can't recall anything but good stories about
their deliveries in the past couple of years.
j
"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> But then again, consider Toyota. <G>
>
> Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the
> competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay
> for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer,
> a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well...
> NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and
> bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays
> marketeers.
Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too.
As is some industrial products like forklift trucks (I've bought 4 of them).
My plan was to "buy American" but the American brand had imported engines
and the foreign brand was made in Kentucky so that idea had no merit. In
side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
drove them in our plant.
I used the older 70's vintage Unisaws in college and at a friend's shop.
When I started shopping to upgrade to a cabinet saw 4-5 years ago I was
pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw. After looking at newer Unisaws I
decided to expand my search. They weren't what they used to be and frankly
they haven't improved since (Handwheel brake nuts for example).
My final decision did come down to Unisaw, Grizzly 1023S and the Jets. The
1023 won based on value and the fact it reminded me so much of the earlier
Unisaws. This included both visual and tactile impressions (smooth
handwheels, tabletop machining/flatness, specifications, sound, vibration,
etc.) I do believe the Unisaw is still a fine machine but I cannot
personally justify the extra hundreds of dollars for the brand name. My
machine has served me well for four years, requires very little adjustment,
and Grizzly delivery support is great. I have never had to use their
product support.
So There!
RonB
BTW - Grizzly will probably provide the names of up to two recent customers,
in your area, who have made recent purchases of a 1023 (and who have agreed
to talk to folks like you). This service, plus a trip to the Springfield
store, won me over.
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:10:17 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too.
That was part of the point.
Toyota has been building Tacomas since 1991 in Fremont, CA. Get
this... They use a shuttered GM plant. <G>
The factory, known as NUMMI <http://www.nummi.com/>, also builds the
Corolla, the Pontiac Vibe, and a car that gets exported back to Japan
and not sold at all in North America.
Toyota also has an interesting method of shipping cars built on the
west coast to the east coast via ship. The ship comes from Japan full
of Japanese-built Lexus and Toyotas. Vehicles bound for the western
US get dropped off, and US built cars destined for the east coast are
loaded. The ship is making the voyage anyway, with the Japanese
product, so savings is obtained by not shipping vehicles by truck or
rail across the country. The same ship carries US built cars back to
Japan.
When I bought my last truck, I needed to order it. The salesman
called me during the wait to tell me it was "on the boat". I truly
thought he was pulling my leg until I investigated it.
Barry
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> BB said:
>
> >"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
> >
> >Visit your local thrift shop - it may be used but usually is still in
good
> >working order and you will benefit the group that they are supporting. .
.
>
> Do you really want to buy used underwear?
> I mean, someone else's 'boys' have been in there... ;-)
>
> There may be a law that prohibits selling used underwear, I've never
> seen any - but I could be wrong. Perhaps it's that no one buys it so
> they don't bother putting it out.
You had been talking about a TOASTER. . .
BB
rickluce said:
>I have a Unisaw and I love it, but problems such as a warped extension
>table and slightly warped left wing have left me wondering if I would
>ever purchase another Delta product. My DJ-20 joiner has a small pit in
>the outfeed table. Not enough to take it back, but the quality
>assurance just wasn't there. I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
>a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
>various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
>to be a crap shoot. The folks who seem to get it right, in my opinion,
>these days are the Canadians. The quality of tools from Canada is to me
>impressive. Just my opinion.
>
>Don
I have a Delta X jointer - I was lucky, but many had problems with
warped fences. My contractor saw had a table that was so warped, it
left a wave on the end of a cut board. This was years ago, and the
first tool I purchased - so it took me a while to figure out what was
wrong. I ended up grinding the thing by hand to true it up. They do
seem to have a problem with rushing green castings into production too
soon. And the customer service has really deteriorated. They used to
respond quickly to warranty parts replacements, but the last time I
called for a warped bandsaw wheel on a brand new 14" Delta, I never
got the parts. Called again, still never got the part. I bent the
damned thing true myself in order to use it, and just gave up on them.
The same dealer also carries General. Their left tilt contractor saws
and the 650s are good saws but I hear bad things about their support
and manuals. And I'm not too certain about the availability of
accessories like snap-in splitters and zero clearance inserts. Their
fence is a nice Canadian made Beis clone.
I hear great things about the 1023SLX Grizzly, but really horrible
stories about the delivery process. Much down time and broken/damaged
parts from freight handlers. They DO seem to respond quickly with new
parts, no questions asked. And the massive carriage and handwheels
action on the 1023 is impressive. But I've never cut wood on one...
I bought the new Porter Cable 2 1/4 HP router kit when it first came
out, and what a pile-o-crap full of Chinese parts. Shoulda gotten an
old, used 690...
Manufacturing, Products and Support are failing miserably in this
country. If something isn't done - like killing off some bean
counters and greedy Wall Street investors, we are going to become a
real third rate country. We've already lost the number one spot.
FWIW,
Greg G.
rickluce said:
>That would be the way to do it, if you had the time. Get a bargain on a
>vintage unisaw, have the top flatground, buy a modern motor and link
>belts and off you go. The first thing I was disapointed with when I
>received my unisaw a couple of years ago was the thickness, or thiness,
>of the base sheetmetal. I haven't looked at older unisaws, but they
>must be thicker.
It would be, if you could FIND one. In these parts, I can't find much
of anything other than used, broken Ryobi and B & D tools.
And the price Redmond gets for a "vintage" Unisaw is pretty steep.
Here is an example - $750 - ouch!
http://www.redmond-machinery.com/images/Delta/P1010020.JPG
Whole lot-o-work to get this usable...
I'm not really into restoring old machinery at this point, although I
did restore old cars in my youth. And the stories of the widow
selling off the "old saw" in the basement for $300 just ain't
happening - at least not for me.
Greg G.
"rickluce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm not sure you'd be any better off with
> a Grizzly. I've heard horor stories from many fellow woodworkers with
> various brands of tools, and I'm wondering if buying tools is getting
> to be a crap shoot.
I'm a happy 1023 owner. No horror story. Works great.
-j
Edwin Pawlowski said:
>joe2 wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so
>> for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get
>> around.
OK, Off Topic Crap. But...
While I have been verbally lamenting the loss of US industry, don't
get the idea I am a Nationalist. I buy products from Germany, Italy,
France, England and even Japan and other developed, economically
mature countries without *too* much chagrin.
What I resent is the unlevel playing field that Chinese products
represent, and the total collapse of our own industries as a result.
I have no problem with the Chinese people, but I do not trust the
Government nor their intentions. Their quiet build up of arms and
technology, continuing human rights issues, environmental chaos, and
their not so secret desire to become a world empire once again leads
me to believe that our pandering is a bad thing for us and the world
in general.
And they certainly have no intention of ever buying our products in an
open marketplace - they shun ours and develop their own.
A few examples:
DVDs? No way, the Chinese government promoted the internal
development of CVD and refuses to enforce foreign copyrights.
Cars? Ha! Don't even go there, we can't even sell them to Americans.
Machinery? Well, we don't make anything anymore - other than military
weapons. The Japanese have dominated the robotics industry. And they
already make everything else.
Computer Software? Double Ha-Ha. Bill Gates is fuming at this very
minute - millions of bootleg copies of Windows are in use already.
And, they have developed their own Linux based O.S.
What is left to sell them? Food? I bought a gallon bottle of apple
juice at Kroger the other day, and on the side of the bottle, in tiny
little letters, was stamped "Imported from China". I took it back and
raised hell. The last thing I'm going to drink is a cadmium, mercury,
PCB, etc. filled bottle of apple juice from China.
And why didn't we embrace the Russians with as much zeal as we have
the Chinese? After all, they attempted to embrace democracy and
capitalism, and we snubbed them. And as a result, arms and nuclear
materials have spread worldwide, and they are near chaos. Not very
good democracy building, if you ask me... Even though the old Soviet
blok countries are inching forward, with companies like Groz and such,
they certainly haven't received the economic boost we handed China.
While I'm obviously not a foreign affairs guru, it makes me wonder
what the hell we are doing - Well, actually I do know... $$$$$$$$$
Avarice reigns supreme. :-\
Greg G.
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:39:30 +0000, joe2 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I called Woodworkers Supply
>and told them, they called Delta, and a new base was sent out that day.
>When the base arrived I called WW Supply again and asked how to swap
>bases. DO NOT LEAN THE SAW OVER a very stern voice instructed me. IT
>WILL BREAK THE TRUNNION.
I would imagine simply leaning the saw over wouldn't break a cast iron
part.
Dropping the tool into that position, or transporting it that way
might. It sounds as if the retailer was being a bit melodramatic.
Barry
Frank Boettcher said:
>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
>>defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?
>>
>
>No. The table will either be from a foundry in Sweetwater, TN
>machined by the fine people in Tupelo, MS, or from a foundry in
>Waupaca, WI, machined by a subcontractor in North Alabama. Depending
>on the time frame of the machines original manufacture and whether the
>table was replaced.
Well, it's good to know that "something" is still made in the USA.
There is so darned little of it anymore.
</RANT ON>
I grew up in the electronics industry, and watched as it deteriorated
to it's current non-existent state. Plants closed nationwide and
moved to Mexico and Asia. Eventually the names were sold off to
Korean, French, and Chinese companies - there are none left.
I still have work clothes made in the USA, ragged and full of holes,
because I refuse to buy Chinese textiles, jeans and tennis shoes. And
these idiots who pay $75 for a sneaker with a "star" endorsement
aren't helping - same crappy Chinese shoes that cost $4.00 to
manufacture. Wall Street loves it, I don't. As a nation, we are
digging our own economic grave. The rich aren't concerned - they've
found a new source of slave laborers that don't sue, demand heath
care, environmental stewardship, or decent salaries. While the ranks
of the poor and unemployed just keep swelling.
8,600 US companies have been sold to foreign interests in the past 10
years for $1.3 Trillion. The US imported $617 billion more than it
exported in 2004. This money acquired by foreign countries is not used
to buy our merchandise as we manufacture very little that other
countries want. They are using it to buy many of our major companies
like Chrysler, Amoco Oil, Arco Oil, Citgo - in addition to entire
industries - 69% of the movie industry, 81% of the cement industry,
100% of the TV manufacturing industry, and 8,600 other major American
companies in the last 10 years.
That $617 Billion equates to approximately $1.25 Million per minute
flowing into foreign hands 24 hours a day / 7 days a week.
In October, the deficit rose to $59 billion, about $1.1 billion more
than in September.
I can only hope I live long enough to see the world stabilize on a
level playing field - before China (and others) have ALL of our
capital and we deteriorate into another has-been, third world country.
Can't happen here? Right - History reveals a different reality.
Many an empire has fallen in the shifting sands of time...
Misplaced National Pride, Arrogance and Denial isn't helping one iota.
Those 'fine folks' in Tupelo, MS, along with millions around the
country, are losing their jobs to outsourcing, and don't have much in
the way of realistic alternative employment. Jobs at McDonalds and
Holiday Inn just don't cut it.
</RANT OFF>
Thanks for the info,
Greg G.
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:18:42 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
>> better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
>> happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
>> as of late.
>
>Well Delta has had a problem with Unisaws in the last 7 or 8 years. The
>factory was blaming the shippers and apparently they have finally admitted
>to improper assembly methods. Trunions have been breaking at what I would
>call an alarming rate. If the saw looks like new you have ask yourself why
>it had to be refurbished as it should have lasted many many years. I would
>say it is a good bet that the trunion had to be replaced. Something to
>thhink about.
>
Leon,
I have a great deal of respect for you through reading your posts but
in this case you have been mislead by someone. I've read the threads
on this before and there has been much misinformation.
There has never been a problem with the torque setting at the factory
on the trunion bracket bolts or any other improper assembly methods.
This comment has been posted a number of times and regardless of the
original source, it is not true.
The package design has been ISTA tested with the appropriate inclined
plane, straight drop and vibrations tests at an independent lab. It
holds a transit tested rating. Even so, trunions would ocasionally
break in shipment even when the package looked fine on arrival.
In testing to try to find out why they were breaking the only way the
trunions could be broken was to tip the unit over and have it land
solidly on the front table edge. When this happened there was no
packaging damage, the internal damage was concealed. You can't imagine
how many sets I've observed broken during that testing process. It is
kind of sickening to keep tipping a saw over just to see if you could
get a statistical read on what would break.
Changes made a number of years ago were to specifically address this
issue. The red motor strap was removed, not to save money but because
it was creating another problem. freight dock drivers would drive up
on a running pickup and slam fork lift masts into the relatively
unprotected end bell of the motor, breaking the end bell and sometimes
the motor bracket. The change was to drop the motor down as far into
the cabinet as possible, supporting it on the dust chute, to protect
it and also to lower the center of gravity to make tip overs less
likely.
A device called a tilt watch was added to the package alerting a
distributor to not accept the package from the freight carrier if the
device had been activated. The only way it could be activated is if
the freight dock person had tipped it over.
The only design change on the trunion brackets and trunions was to
increase the cross sections where there was breakage and to increase
any radii to eliminate the notch effect on impact. There has been no
reduction in the specifications for chemical or mechanical properties
of the iron as was suggested in some old threads.
There were a number of other changes to the pack to improve the
shippability. And after any change the unit was transit tested again
by an independent lab.
A broken internal component is a small percentage of returns. Most
are minor (cosmetic) freight damage or internal warehouse damage or
distributor resets. Many come in and the refurb diagnosis indicates no
apparent reason. However, the refurb process is outstanding. You will
get a good saw if you buy refurb. My everyday use unisaw is a
reconditioned unit.
Why post now? It was/is a company policy not to respond to posts on
unmoderated news groups. I no longer work for the company and I do
not represent them with this post. It is, however, the truth.
Frank
Leon said:
>
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
>> better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
>> happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
>> as of late.
>
>Well Delta has had a problem with Unisaws in the last 7 or 8 years. The
>factory was blaming the shippers and apparently they have finally admitted
>to improper assembly methods. Trunions have been breaking at what I would
>call an alarming rate. If the saw looks like new you have ask yourself why
>it had to be refurbished as it should have lasted many many years. I would
>say it is a good bet that the trunion had to be replaced. Something to
>thhink about.
I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
Apparently, however, if you do get an unbroken one, it doesn't
subsequently break in service. But it IS worrysome... Is there a
crack lurking in there - cast iron is funny like that...
I would say, however, that dropping the saw on it's side - with a huge
motor attached - would constitute undue and abnormal stress.
Greg G.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My point is that although we like to buy American, some foreign makes are
> superior. So superior that they now justify putting assembly plants in
> the US. EVERY country is capable of making junk or making a quality
> product.
I think the real reason for building plants in the US is to avoid the
rediculously high import tax. IIRC the Acura that my wife and I bought in
1990 stickered for about 14,500. Had there been no import tax the sticker
would have been closer to $10,000.
Edwin Pawlowski said:
>joe2 wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so
>> for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get
>> around.
>
>About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
>$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I
>could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.
I hear you - we faced the same situation very recently. Our trusty
old US made toaster oven finally gave it up after 20 odd years, and I
couldn't fix it due to parts unavailability. Looked high and low, but
could not find anything made outside of China. Ended up paying too
much for a crappy GE Toaster Oven from China that I fear is going to
burn the house down. I hate it - it's crap. But what choice did I
have?! None.
I wore ragged jeans for years before the seams literally left my ass
hanging out in the wind because the last US manufacturer (Wrangler)
moved from the US to China - and I refused to buy their product
anymore. I finally broke down in a moment of weakness and bought a
pair, and they sucked! You can blame Wal-Mart and other economic
pressures for that.
Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
Greg G.
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
> Damned bean-counters and
>Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
>mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
>price.
The first are only responding to the second.
But then again, consider Toyota. <G>
Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the
competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay
for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer,
a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well...
NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and
bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays
marketeers.
We'll never know if companies like Delta had stuck to their quality
guns, and occasionally showed some fresh ideas and innovation, if the
purchaser would have stuck to them.
Companies like Grizzly and Jet have not only built cheaper products,
but in some cases, more innovative tools at increasing levels of
quality with better end user support.
Compare old imported iron to the current offerings. It's all kind of
like comparing a '75 Corolla to a new one. No matter if it's cars or
tools, consumer markets are moving targets.
Barry
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>Frank Boettcher said:
>
>>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)
>>
>>Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.
>
>I thought so... ;-)
>That's OK, however. I have a shop full of Delta stuff - along with a
>few Jet, and a couple Dewalt pieces. The blue Borg used to carry
>Delta, and I bought a fair amount of it there - and at Highland
>Hardware. But they have begun to push some horrid house branded stuff
>called Tradesman - what a bunch of Bad Chinese Crappola!
>
>>My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
>>based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
>>used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
>>processes and the reality of their statistical capability.
>
>It IS the classic woodworkers saw. I just fear that Delta is riding
>more on their reputation rather than quality these days...
>They are most certainly not the only company doing this - it's a tough
>marketplace - but I hate to see it happen. Damned bean-counters and
>Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
>mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
>price.
>
>>If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
>>normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
>>refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
>>result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
>>resets.
>
>That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
>defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?
>
No. The table will either be from a foundry in Sweetwater, TN
machined by the fine people in Tupelo, MS, or from a foundry in
Waupaca, WI, machined by a subcontractor in North Alabama. Depending
on the time frame of the machines original manufacture and whether the
table was replaced.
>>And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
>>all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.
>
>Sadly, it's looking that way...
>We are losing it to so many other countries.
>And when we lose all of our manufacturing capabilities, we lose the
>ability to defend our way of life.
>
>JMHO,
>
>
>Greg G.
joe2 said:
>
>If it helps, the Grizzly is made in Taiwan, the Unisaw is now partly
>made in Taiwan. The Unisaw still uses traditional non-metric hardware,
>dont know about the Grizzly.
Almost everything cast-iron comes from China these days. :-\
Metric/Imperial, who cares - as long as they're not mixed up
on the same machine (damned Fords).
>The cost of a NEW Unisaw 10-in, 3hp, with a 50-in Biesemeyer commercial
>fence system is only $100 to $200 (s/h included) more than the refirbd
I don't know where you are getting your prices, but I've never seen a
Unisaw w/50" Beis and tableboard for less than $1699 w/ local pickup.
These are going for $1249. Where are you getting that price in 2005
dollars?
Greg G.
If it helps, the Grizzly is made in Taiwan, the Unisaw is now partly
made in Taiwan. The Unisaw still uses traditional non-metric hardware,
dont know about the Grizzly.
The cost of a NEW Unisaw 10-in, 3hp, with a 50-in Biesemeyer commercial
fence system is only $100 to $200 (s/h included) more than the refirbd
unit mentioned above. I opted for the Delta product (new) because of
the Biesemeyer fence, an upgraded Grizzly fence meant paying extra for
a 2nd fence and getting stuck with one I didnt want or need.
Didnt/dont have a clue what Im doing, made the decision on the
Biesemeyer fence based on numerous reviews and user comments. Maybe
Ill feel differently about the Biesemeyer commercial fence later down
the road, but for now Im still tickled pink.
--
joe2
Greg G. Wrote:
>
>
> I don't know where you are getting your prices, but I've never seen a
> Unisaw w/50" Beis and tableboard for less than $1699 w/ local pickup.
> These are going for $1249. Where are you getting that price in 2005
> dollars?
>
> Greg G.
I hope we are talking about the same saw
I just got my Unisaw last
month, model 36-L3B. It is 10-in, 3hp, extended table, Biesemeyer
50-in commercial fence, Deltas mobile base, $1499. Actually, delivery
wasnt totally free because there was a $13.00 booking fee.
I just looked at the website, price has jumped $50 ($1549), maybe
adjustments for changing fuel costs?!?
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=36-830A
I'm new to the Unisaw. Are we on the same page with these Unisaws?
--
joe2
RonB Wrote:
> ... I have seen comments and confusion over the years regarding the
> need to replace the 1023S fence with the upgraded Shop Fox or a Bies.
> ...
That would be me...confused / ignorant.
Ron-
Not a problem. Thanks for the input. Im new to the world of quality
table saws. All I had to go on were reviews, reports, forum threads;
mostly stuff I guess should be considered opinions. That I
would/could get something wrong is something I expected. Ironically,
the neighbor across the street bought a Grizzly a couple weeks before
me and didnt say anything at the time. Now being able to see and
compare a Griz and a Uni, Id have no problem at all with owning either
of them. Without doing a microscopic comparison, my initial impression
is the Griz might be a better value, from a consumers perspective.
Nonetheless, I still get tool-tingle from that Biesemeyer frence!
:)
--
joe2
Greg G. Wrote:
>
> Well, based on the model numbers, those are old models -
> Not that it matters to anyone but the marketing department...
> Pretty good prices, however, even if they are old stock.
> Newer ain't necessarily better...
> Greg G.
I called Delta about the saw (36-L3B) before I bought it; they said it
is current Unisaw product, (1) 36-953 saw, (2) BC50(W?) Biesemeyer Comm
Fence w/extd table, (3) 50-284 mobile base. A local retailer told me
Delta renumbered their products not long ago and it has everyone
confused. Sound right?!?
That website shows inventory on hand, dont believe it. They sell out
the Unisaw faster than they can get them in. They sell a lot of
Unisaws, even while in transit to ship from 1 of 3 distribution points
in the US. When I bought my Unisaw it showed 4 available, down from 10
the day before. When I called to order it, they said only 4 saws
actually on a truck in route from Delta/Tenn to distribution in New Mex
were still available. The saw arrive at my home a week after I ordered
it, literally moved off one truck and onto another.
Edit: anyways, my original point was that a brand new Unisaw + Bies
comm fence w/ext table + mobile base can be delivered to you for (now)
$250 more than one of those referbd saws.
--
joe2
Frank Boettcher Wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg
> ... And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the
> future,
> all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.
> Frank
Fwiw, it would be in error to presume China cannot or does not produce
a quality product. It would also be in error to presume all product
that comes from China is quality. Same for Taiwan, where most (all?)
cabinet saws are at least in some part now made.
Its hard to talk about made in
without getting into politics.
Anyone that watches the global political and economic landscape is
aware there is a serious problem with Chinas robust and stable
economy, global distribution network, securing deep-water shipping port
around the world, her buying of gold on the international monetary
market, and our trade deficit with that country. It affects not only
our natl security, but global security as well. China wants to take
over the world and she is now well placed to do so economically, and
thus improving her chances militarily.
Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so
for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get
around.
--
joe2
Greg G. Wrote:
> Leon said:
>
>
> "Greg G." [email protected] wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
> better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
> happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non)
> service
> as of late.
>
> Well Delta has had a problem with Unisaws in the last 7 or 8 years.
> The
> factory was blaming the shippers and apparently they have finally
> admitted
> to improper assembly methods. Trunions have been breaking at what I
> would
> call an alarming rate. If the saw looks like new you have ask yourself
> why
> it had to be refurbished as it should have lasted many many years. I
> would
> say it is a good bet that the trunion had to be replaced. Something
> to
> thhink about.
>
> I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
> denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
>
> Apparently, however, if you do get an unbroken one, it doesn't
> subsequently break in service. But it IS worrysome... Is there a
> crack lurking in there - cast iron is funny like that...
>
> I would say, however, that dropping the saw on it's side - with a huge
> motor attached - would constitute undue and abnormal stress.
>
>
> Greg G.
My Unisaw arrived with a large pink label on the box instructing me to
check the contents for possible damage. There was a pierce in the box
near the bottom. Looked like a sloppy forklift operator didnt have
the blades set at the right height and smacked into the saw box. Sure
enough, the cabinet base was bashed in. I called Woodworkers Supply
and told them, they called Delta, and a new base was sent out that day.
When the base arrived I called WW Supply again and asked how to swap
bases. DO NOT LEAN THE SAW OVER a very stern voice instructed me. IT
WILL BREAK THE TRUNNION.
And there you have it. Unisaw trunnions do break in shipping if they
are tilted...of if you lay your Unisaw over to swap bases. The
solution is a tilt meter on the shipping carton. It your saw box
arrives with a silver meter you are good to go. If it arrives with a
red meter, dont even let them take it off the truck. This I was told
when I purchased my saw, to check the meter before the saw is unloaded.
So yes, the SHIPPERS are not keeping the saws upright, so I guess you
can say the shippers are the ones breaking the trunnions. But you
could also argue it should be possible to design a saw that can be
tipped on its side without damage.
Unless your Unisaw is tilted you're not likely to have any trunnion
trouble. Don't know how far over you can tip it before the weight of
the stuff on the trunnion causes a problem for it.
Edit: I wont tell you how I single-handedly swapped bases on a 300lb
saw without tilting it. However, I claim to have a much better
understanding of how the pyramids were built.
--
joe2
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
>50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
>They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.
>
>Is the Unisaw still worth having,
of course
or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
>better choice.
IMHO no.
Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
>happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
>as of late.
>
Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
October.
>Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
>feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
>plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
>Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?
>
Handwheels are cast iron with heavy machined steel tapered handle
Cast iron Trunion design has not changed since the late 1940's except
for adding stock in areas to minimize breakage during shipment.
Same motor mount.
>Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Greg G.
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>Frank Boettcher said:
>
>>On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>Is the Unisaw still worth having,
>>
>>of course
>>
>>Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
>>October.
>
>You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)
>
>
>
>Greg G.
Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.
My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
processes and the reality of their statistical capability.
If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
resets.
And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.
Frank
Frank Boettcher said:
>On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>>Is the Unisaw still worth having,
>
>of course
>
>Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last
>October.
You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)
Greg G.
DonkeyHody said:
>Greg,
>I bought a factory reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago from
>Redmond Machinery in Atlanta. My story is long and I won't repeat it
>here.
That's the dealer that is local to me... ;-)
Thanks for the info - I've only bought some small things from them,
and wandered around their scrap yard a bit. It's an interesting place
if you like wood and metal working machinery from the early 1900s.
Greg G.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edwin Pawlowski said:
>
> >joe2 wrote:
> >>
> >> Personally, I boycott anything marked "made in China", been doing so
> >> for most of two decades, but it's getting harder and harder to get
> >> around.
> >
> >About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
> >$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England.
I
> >could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.
>
> I hear you - we faced the same situation very recently. Our trusty
> old US made toaster oven finally gave it up after 20 odd years, and I
> couldn't fix it due to parts unavailability. Looked high and low, but
> could not find anything made outside of China. Ended up paying too
> much for a crappy GE Toaster Oven from China that I fear is going to
> burn the house down. I hate it - it's crap. But what choice did I
> have?! None.
>
> I wore ragged jeans for years before the seams literally left my ass
> hanging out in the wind because the last US manufacturer (Wrangler)
> moved from the US to China - and I refused to buy their product
> anymore. I finally broke down in a moment of weakness and bought a
> pair, and they sucked! You can blame Wal-Mart and other economic
> pressures for that.
>
> Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
> I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
> were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
> winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
Visit your local thrift shop - it may be used but usually is still in good
working order and you will benefit the group that they are supporting. . .
BB
BB said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
>
>Visit your local thrift shop - it may be used but usually is still in good
>working order and you will benefit the group that they are supporting. . .
Do you really want to buy used underwear?
I mean, someone else's 'boys' have been in there... ;-)
There may be a law that prohibits selling used underwear, I've never
seen any - but I could be wrong. Perhaps it's that no one buys it so
they don't bother putting it out.
Greg G.
"Greg G." wrote in message
> I have heard the same thing. When I asked the salesman about it, he
> denied there was a problem and then stalked off in a huff...
Old news (there's a contradiction in terms for you) ... IIRC, that problem,
not all that prevalent in the first place considering the number of units
sold, was addressed/solved at last two or three years ago.
Certainly not something to kill a deal unless one is looking for an excuse,
IMO.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:ZC39f.5009
>
> The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the
> construction
> materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior?
I think he was indicating that the quality remains high despite the fact
that they are built in the US. Edwin was commenting on Barrys comparison of
Japaneese Owned products to US owned products. Edwin pointed out that many
Toyotas are built in the US.
I think the Japanese products are superior regardless of country of origin
because of engeneering and QC. I do not doubt that the US can build a great
product as long as the design is great.
> Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop
> management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are
> the
> same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?
>
>> side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test
>> drove them in our plant.
>
> The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction
> quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?
>
>
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:57:31 -0600, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Swingman (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| Jeeeezuss, what's this country coming to?!?
>
>You made me look. The kitchenAid (a Whirlpool brand) on our counter
>claims to come from St. Joseph, Michigan.
I've seen tons of stuff labeled "packed in USA", on the box, and the
device inside is labeled with the actual country of origin.
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:44:52 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the
>50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299.
>They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.
>
>Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a
>better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very
>happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service
>as of late.
>
>Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice
>feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder)
>plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be?
>Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?
>
>Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Greg G.
I am a happy owner of a Grizzly 1023SL.
Still, for $1299 for a Unisaw that you can get locally, that might be
a better deal. First, if you get a Grizzly with a 50" fence, it will
raise the price; add shipping and I guess you would be right at $1299.
Then there is the benefit of a local vendor. Grizzly does a great job
of after sales support, but it is long distance. If you need a
replacement part, it will take a few days to arrive.
Either way, I believe you will get a fine deal.
>> Jim Weisgram
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China,
> I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that
> were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this
> winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an
> alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
Well, you could take a trip up to see us in Canada. We've got original home
grown fur polar bear underwear. Guaranteed down to -50°F. And if you're
really lucky, you might find one or two 4" bear claws still attached to the
underwear. Also guaranteed to make sure you wake up quick when dressing
first thing in the morning.
<g>
Frank Boettcher said:
>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>>You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)
>
>Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.
I thought so... ;-)
That's OK, however. I have a shop full of Delta stuff - along with a
few Jet, and a couple Dewalt pieces. The blue Borg used to carry
Delta, and I bought a fair amount of it there - and at Highland
Hardware. But they have begun to push some horrid house branded stuff
called Tradesman - what a bunch of Bad Chinese Crappola!
>My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also
>based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes
>used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The
>processes and the reality of their statistical capability.
It IS the classic woodworkers saw. I just fear that Delta is riding
more on their reputation rather than quality these days...
They are most certainly not the only company doing this - it's a tough
marketplace - but I hate to see it happen. Damned bean-counters and
Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
price.
>If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is
>normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most
>refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a
>result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor
>resets.
That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but
defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?
>And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future,
>all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.
Sadly, it's looking that way...
We are losing it to so many other countries.
And when we lose all of our manufacturing capabilities, we lose the
ability to defend our way of life.
JMHO,
Greg G.
Ba r r y said:
>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0400, Greg G.<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Damned bean-counters and
>>Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to
>>mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for
>>price.
>
>The first are only responding to the second.
Not necessarily. I look for things that will last - for eons.
If I can't find quality, and have to buy cheap crap - then I go
directly to the source. Why support a lethargic firm and it's
overpaid CEO and marketing department when it does not innovate, but
only rests on it's past successes - successes that usually resulted
from a lack of competition.
These days, however, in an attempt to squeeze every dime out of each
sale, so that greedy investors can quickly collect huge dividends for
essentially doing nothing, they close the local plant and move it
overseas. Does this result in a lowering of the price? Not usually,
just greater profits. This short sighted mentality is destroying our
economy - whether originating from investors, CEOs, or politicians.
>But then again, consider Toyota. <G>
>
>Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the
>competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay
>for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer,
>a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well...
>NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and
>bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays
>marketeers.
Yup.
>We'll never know if companies like Delta had stuck to their quality
>guns, and occasionally showed some fresh ideas and innovation, if the
>purchaser would have stuck to them.
I find it interesting that, for instance Delta, has sold basically the
same Unisaw for 40 odd years. They change the handwheels, paint
color, advertising BS - but the product hasn't changed substantially.
They stand frozen like a deer in the headlights, fearful of making any
substantial changes, for fear of loosing what reputation they have
left. Instead of boldly forging ahead to improve the product through
simple creative thought. Leave the basic mechanism alone - it works.
But update the dust collection (Dewalt), improve the off switch and
it's location (Jet), improve the horrific guards and splitter
assemblies (numerous aftermarket companies) - or God forbid - do
something radical like improve safety (SawStop). Cripes, those cast
iron molds and metal bending machines must be paid for by now.
Innovate - or someone else will.
>Companies like Grizzly and Jet have not only built cheaper products,
>but in some cases, more innovative tools at increasing levels of
>quality with better end user support.
See? I warned you...
>Compare old imported iron to the current offerings. It's all kind of
>like comparing a '75 Corolla to a new one. No matter if it's cars or
>tools, consumer markets are moving targets.
Targets. Hmm - I wish I could get away with using them as targets. ;-)
I bought a blown up '68 Toyota back in '74 and rebuilt the engine for
my sister - long before anyone considered foreign import cars a
threat. I could tell we were in trouble. If they hadn't been so
damned ugly, they would have been more of a threat. But they have
fixed that nicely, Thank You. Incidentally, that '68 Toyota ran for
over 300,000 miles, and finally died in 1986. Never gave a minutes
trouble until then.
Later,
Greg G.
joe2 said:
>I hope we are talking about the same saw
I just got my Unisaw last
>month, model 36-L3B. It is 10-in, 3hp, extended table, Biesemeyer
>50-in commercial fence, Deltas mobile base, $1499. Actually, delivery
>wasnt totally free because there was a $13.00 booking fee.
>
>I just looked at the website, price has jumped $50 ($1549), maybe
>adjustments for changing fuel costs?!?
>
>http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=36-830A
>
>I'm new to the Unisaw. Are we on the same page with these Unisaws?
Well, based on the model numbers, those are old models -
Not that it matters to anyone but the marketing department...
Pretty good prices, however, even if they are old stock.
Newer ain't necessarily better...
Greg G.
joe2 wrote:
>
> Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so
> for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get
> around.
About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to
$250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I
could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
Swingman (in [email protected]) said:
| Jeeeezuss, what's this country coming to?!?
You made me look. The kitchenAid (a Whirlpool brand) on our counter
claims to come from St. Joseph, Michigan. I have another in my
consulting kit that I bought in a Philly WalMart for $14.95 (along
with a similarly priced rice cooker) that I can't imagine coming from
fron anywhere other than China.
The KitchenAid toaster has an LED "toastedness" display, but doesn't
do a noticably better job (repeatable result, even-toasting, etc) than
the $85-cheaper Chinese product. Both of 'em are a PIA when it comes
to emptying the crumbs [thank you very much for the reminder!]
But the only conclusion that this discussion leads to is that some
Chinese factories can produce _some_ things less-expensively than
American factories can. If you're a toaster production line assembly
person being paid $20/hour (based on seniority) to put the four bottom
screws through the plastic feet, that's probably disturbing.
The word "some" above is important. There's stuff _not_ coming out of
Chinese factories yet that _is_ produced here. We can either complain
about how they've learned to do some of the things that we learned
sooner, or we can focus on providing the world with the things that
they can't produce less expensively (yet).
The really important question has to be: Is there a scenario in which
everyone does that business activity they do best so as to produce a
synergy of American and Chinese (and ...) efforts?
I'm fairly well convinced that win-lose strategies utlimately produce
only lose-lose results.
It would seem that the world has shrunk to the point where we're
obliged to start learning how to "play well with others" - and to
remember that we don't own all the toys nor make all the rules.
Fortunately, excellence is still treasured everywhere.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html