Why I hate Norm Abrams

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-08-23, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mother Earth News has plans on how to do this.
>>
>>
>> http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/2002-10-01/Build-Your-Own-Wood-Fired-Earth-Oven.aspx
>
> Excellent. Not as detailed as I could wish, but enough to give me
> solid ideas in right direction. Thank you.
>
> Funny you should find it in MEN. I read that magazine for years after
> its first issue. Musta given away a few hundred copies. Glad that
> stuff is online.
>
> nb

I haven't built one but I plan to. I think the key to success is
making sure you have enough sand in the mix to control shrinkage.
Otherwise when it dries it will crack and it will fall apart possibly
into what you are cooking.

"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly rented
offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were needed. I
suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it wizard. My
qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought them to work! It
was a constant battle to get the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the
tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

When I first left home and was working a a minimum wage job a a dishwasher,
I saved my pennies and bought tools from the local hardware store. Later,
when building rustic furniture with few tools, I would do jobs just to buy
tools. I knew tools were important. It is amazing the number of folks who
don't know this. I have helped a number of folks buy some basic tools for
the house/apartment. They did not know what to buy or where to buy it.

Red Green <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> So many of my thought he printed.
>
> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the
> victim, aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every
> pipe connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla
> blew his big bad Habanero breath on.
>

There's a new one on DIY called "Renovation Realities". There's also
"Dream House" that's kinda like that.

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Norm is sexy.

Winston <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "stan" wrote
>>
>> But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
>> items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
>> one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
>> get one's own tools!
>> ==================
>>
>> Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly
>> rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they
>> were needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and general fix
>> it wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and
>> brought them to work! It was a constant battle to get the tools
>> back. Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted to give
>> them back.
>
> Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.
>
> I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
> I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
> of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
> essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.
>
> That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
> It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
> the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
> walkabout.
>
> --Winston
>

After a visit to an auto repair shop I found a screwdriver inside the
engine compartment. It was on a small ledge/lip in front of the radiator.
There was no way to get it out. I drove around with it and it never fell
out in the years I had that truck.

On Aug 24, 1:49=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > DGDevin wrote:
>
> >> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
> >> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> > I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> > painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> > however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
> > is equally tedious.
>
> Dang Devin, =A0sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture =
is
> tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

Paint stripper greatly speeds that process.

Andy

On Aug 26, 1:55=A0pm, Smitty Two <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> =A0Red Green <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Yea but at least once in a while, ya know..like first Saturday of the
> > month or something, show a DIY roofer plug a nail into his kneecap. Mak=
e
> > a nice lead-in to removing it on the Operation show..
>
> Right. I'd like to see House and his team work through a complex set of
> symptoms and finally come to the conclusion that the patient has a nail
> in his kneecap.

I think it was an episode of Blog Cabin on the DIY network last year
where one of the twins nailed 3 fingers together with a nail gun.

He missed everything crucial, including crucial days of work, which
was all the drama on the show. "How are we going to get this done now
that we're a man down?"

Gimme a break - just hire 8 more of the workers that we never see on
camera.

On Aug 24, 8:09=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...> notbob wrote:
>
> =A0 I agree that the "This Old Mansion" thing is
>
> > sometimes carried too far, but the companies supplying that gee-whiz
> > technology help to pay for the show too. =A0And five minutes later Tomm=
y is
> > showing us how to install a garage door or sharpen a chisel--it ain't a=
ll
> > big-bucks high-tech stuff.
>
> PLUS! =A0 Tommy keeps us up to date on all the new Festool stuff!

*golf clap*

Metspitzer wrote:
>(snip)
>
> I put a circle of red and a circle of green on the handle of my tools.
> People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
> tools back from the honest people.
>
> People from other trades even knew who they belonged to.

Red and Green, huh? Did they cover them with duct tape? :^/

--
aem sends...

In article <[email protected]>, notbob
<[email protected]> wrote:

> What I've been looking for, and have only been teased, is a dead
> simple, dirt cheap, outdoor woodfired bread/pizza oven. Apparently
> the Ancients could build millions of them for centuries using only
> dirt, water, spit and elbow grease, but for some reason, now it's
> utterly impossible with anything short of $1500 worth of brick and
> mortar and another $129 for plans. Not sure if I need the whiz bang
> hand saw.

Have you seen this one?

<http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac07b.htm>

Lots more:

<http://mha-net.org/html/lyle/lyle01.htm>

(no bricks!)
<http://mha-net.org/html/lyle/lyle04.htm>
<http://www.geocities.com/mosesrocket/>

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 8/23/2009 1:25 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:
>
> [yes, it's Abram, not Abrams. Apparently they didn't name the tank after
> him.]
>
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
>> a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
>> and maintenance.
>>
>> Here's a sample:
>>
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
>> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
>> make most people feel like idiots.
>
> Heh; got some junk mail from /Popular Woodworking/ today (don't think
> I'll subscribe, as I got spoiled from reading /Fine Woodworking/). The
> pitch features the cover from their August 2005 issue, with a photo of
> Norm in his shop. The article title is "In the Shop with Norm Abram: We
> Debunk 7 Myths About TV's Frugal Yankee".
>
> Wonder what the myths are. Anyone have this issue lying around?

I remember that issue, way back when and they were all softball
questions. You know,
"Does Norm own the shop" and "Does Norm really have a power tool fetish"
and "Does Norm
actually build all those projects himself", that kind of thing.

I will say, Popular Woodworking surprised me, I got it on a whim one
year and have kept renewing ever since. FWW, PWW and a multi-year
subscription to Wood that someone got me is all I read these days.

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:42:10 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>>
>>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner
>>> of a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home
>>> repair and
>>
>> What do you expect? It's Berkeley, where the odds of using any tool
>> for its intended purpose (as opposed for deviant sexual practices
>> between consenting gophers) is next to nothing. They are good at
>> "building" Molotovs and joints there, I have to admit ...
>
>LOL, those were my thoughts exactly. Someone from Berzerkely finding
>something to whine about, yeah, why am I not all that surprised?
>
>Jon (who also enjoys watching NASA launch rockets into space, and doesn't
>feel that incompetence should be encouraged to make idiots feel better about
>themselves).
>
>
It is pretty sad that part of the launch reporters feel the need to
report that nothing is falling off the shuttle, though. :)

Did anyone catch the quote from the TV Show "House" about Norm?

House's oncologist friend Wilson was staying with him between
marriages. He noted surprise that House had New Yankee Workshop
marked as a favorite on his on-screen menu.

He said "Gee House, I never figured you as the woodworking type."

House responded (paraphrase): "Oh yeah. A total moron in a building
full of ultra-sharp woodworking machinery. As a physician, the
suspense is unbearable!"

But I still like Norm.

RonB

On Aug 23, 3:25=A0pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> =A0 =A0I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old Ho=
use"
> =A0 =A0and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: =
they
> =A0 =A0make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrate=
s how
> =A0 =A0to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparin=
g the
> =A0 =A0average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides no=
thing
> =A0 =A0more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would =
be a
> =A0 =A0lot of fun if you only want to learn that you=97as a homeowner or =
stock
> =A0 =A0broker or bank clerk=97know nothing about houses or furniture or n=
ails and
> =A0 =A0that you=92ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a pi=
cture on
> =A0 =A0the wall.
>
> =A0 =A0On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All=
the
> =A0 =A0materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wro=
ng
> =A0 =A0type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor nev=
er
> =A0 =A0needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily beca=
use
> =A0 =A0they fill up with water and will rust out if you don=92t do so). T=
hat=92s
> =A0 =A0another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details t=
hat
> =A0 =A0fill a contractor=92s day (or your day when you play contractor) b=
ut
> =A0 =A0they=92re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. J=
ust pop
> =A0 =A0the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes=
right
> =A0 =A0out of the other oven.
>
> (See article athttp://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33=
531)
>
> --
> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Its a Show, you are to only get ideas from it, or do you think they
should spend alot of their time scraping paint, taping, cutting etc,
then it would be boring and off tv. I bet they make a very good
living, and thats why they do it.

"Mint" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:02e8ac86-28dd-4307-92ed-41d25b5af1e6@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 24, 1:49 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > DGDevin wrote:
>
> >> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
> >> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> > I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> > painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> > however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
> > is equally tedious.
>
> Dang Devin, sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture is
> tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

Paint stripper greatly speeds that process.

Andy

Care to explaing how paint stripper speeds painting or applying a finsih on
a new piece of furniture?

On Aug 23, 10:23=A0pm, Metspitzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:03:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
> >news:[email protected]:
>
> >> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> >> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> >> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
> >> a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
> >> and maintenance.
>
> >> Here's a sample:
>
> >> =A0 =A0I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
> >> =A0 =A0House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simpl=
e
> >> =A0 =A0reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show =
only
> >> =A0 =A0demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a l=
ousy
> >> =A0 =A0job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the e=
nd,
> >> =A0 =A0the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping and showi=
ng
> >> =A0 =A0off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only want to l=
earn
> >> =A0 =A0that you=97as a homeowner or stock broker or bank clerk=97know =
nothing
> >> =A0 =A0about houses or furniture or nails and that you=92ll never stan=
d a
> >> =A0 =A0chance of doing more than hanging a picture on the wall.
>
> >> =A0 =A0On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. =
All
> >> =A0 =A0the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, =
the
> >> =A0 =A0wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
> >> =A0 =A0compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
> >> =A0 =A0compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust=
out
> >> =A0 =A0if you don=92t do so). That=92s another thing I hate: in actual=
ity,
> >> =A0 =A0there are many small details that fill a contractor=92s day (or=
your
> >> =A0 =A0day when you play contractor) but they=92re neatly edited out, =
just
> >> =A0 =A0as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven=
and
> >> =A0 =A0Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other o=
ven.
>
> >> (See article at
> >>http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
> > So many of my thought he printed.
>
> >They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
> >aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
> >connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his =
=A0
> >big bad Habanero breath on.
>
> I hope the DIY's come out on the Internet. =A0I have already seen some
> pretty useful ones.
>
> What I really want to see is something you have to bring home and
> assemble that comes with a link where you can watch the assembly of
> the exact product on the Internet.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes and one that honestly says "If piece A does not fit easily into
the slot of bracket B, use a piece of sandpaper and/or a small rasp/
file and rub down the rough edges of A so it will fit.
DO NOT enlarge slot. I needing to tap A into place use something soft
before 'Gently' tapping A into place with hammer or similar tool. Use
enclosed Allen wrench to tighten patent fasteners nuts.

Definitions:
a) Sandpaper (Heavy paper coated with glued abrasive such as sand).
b) Hammer (Nailing tool with metal 'head' and wooden of fibreglass
handle).
c)Rasp/file. Household abrasive tool (See larger version of nail file
etc.).
d) Allen wrench (Hexagonal 'six sided' small tool to fit indentation
in head of patent fasteners).


But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!

One time, some 50+ years ago, though I was 'thrown for loop' when a
senior gentleman kept asking me for a 'Turn screw' (Old Irish I think,
i.e. Screwdriver.) Come to think of it that makes more sense than the
word 'screwdriver'. Cos you turn a screw whether you are putting it in
or taking it out!

Agree Norm Abrams time 30 minutes. Mine two weeks plus, plus, in
between fixing the house, doing chores, visiting family, servicing
motor vehicle etc. etc. Must go round and check trees for damage and
if any water came through basement windows during last night's storm
(Tropical storm/hurricane 'Bill') which quickly passed over here last
night. Power, TV and phone survived but only thing had to reset this
morning was the microwave!

On Aug 24, 7:43=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio.=
"
> It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
> compared to the benefit attained from the same.
>
> The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
> have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
> of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.
>
> I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
> because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
> cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
> dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)

My view is that I only do the stuff that's fun or that I can't trust
others to do right. The rest, I hire someone. Drywall is no longer
fun. Roofing is for people who don't have vertigo.

Luigi

"notbob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2009-08-23, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
>> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
>> make most people feel like idiots.
>
> I don't know about that.
>
>> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides
>> nothing
>> more than boutique shopping and showing off.
>
> That's my bitch. Let's make a box. Here, we have my new nuclear
> powered, laser guided, atomic clock timed, whiz bang hand saw........
> The last episode of This Old House I watched, in disgust, a huge crane
> and crew of 10 lowered pre-stressed concrete walls into the basement
> of the rustic cabin, which they had apparently completely dismantled
> and stored away in a climate controlled warehouse, somewheres. And
> Yankee Workshop. "Today we will show you how to construct and use
> this pre-Columbian horse drawn hand plane........"
>
> That was the old PBS stuff. Today's DIY is much better. I tuned in
> for the much needed "deck" episode. "Here's the old deck. Sucks,
> doesn't it. Here's our crew of twenty. Look at'em go! Done. Tune
> in next week" WTF!
>
> I get more info here, in a day, than I got from years of watching
> those useless shows.
>
> What I've been looking for, and have only been teased, is a dead
> simple, dirt cheap, outdoor woodfired bread/pizza oven. Apparently
> the Ancients could build millions of them for centuries using only
> dirt, water, spit and elbow grease, but for some reason, now it's
> utterly impossible with anything short of $1500 worth of brick and
> mortar and another $129 for plans. Not sure if I need the whiz bang
> hand saw.



*I've seen at a couple of festivals in NJ a restored 1930's truck with a
wood fired pizza oven mounted on back. The guy makes delicious fresh
gourmet pizza. I can't remember the name of the company.

DGDevin wrote:
>
> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.

-MIKE- wrote:
>
> benick wrote:
> >> When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use
> >> the excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."
> >>
> >> -MIKE-
> >>
> >
> > Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out
> > there in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
> > everything.....
>
> The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
> It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
> compared to the benefit attained from the same.
>
> The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
> have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
> of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.
>
> I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
> because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
> cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
> dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)
>

Yes, for me, cosmetic items like taping drywall and painting have a poor
B:B ratio since they both require technique that needs constant practice
to get a flawless finish. Framing, wiring and plumbing aren't cosmetic
and require knowledge to do properly, not much in the way of technique
per se.

On 8/26/2009 1:29 PM Brian Henderson spake thus:

> I will say, Popular Woodworking surprised me, I got it on a whim one
> year and have kept renewing ever since. FWW, PWW and a multi-year
> subscription to Wood that someone got me is all I read these days.

Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking magazine
to drool over?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Larry Blanchard wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:35 -0700, DGDevin wrote:
>
>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but would
>> think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> At my age, wire and pipe weigh a lot less than drywall :-).

It isn't the weight that gets me, it's the knowledge that I'm probably
capable of connecting the household power grid to the plumbing. Bookcases
and umbrella stands and wine bottle racks--no problem. Plumbing and
electrical--I'll leave that stuff to the pros. ;~)

On 2009-08-25, Metspitzer <[email protected]> wrote:


> People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
> tools back from the honest people.

I had a similar system. If I loaned a tool out and didn't get it
back, I'd turn over heaven and earth to hunt 'em down and reclaim it.
If I caught someone absconding with a tool w/o my permission, I read
'em the riot act at full volume in front of the whole production
floor. People soon learned my rollaway was not worth it. ;)

nb

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Norm could quickly read off a laundry list, some of the items being:

Or he could suggest a section to view on his website that contains safety
suggestions and run of the mill stuff that users should view on occasion.
Stuff that would eat up valuable TV time if he went through it every time on
his show.

On Aug 23, 11:29=A0pm, aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote:
> RonB wrote:
> > Did anyone catch the quote from the TV Show "House" about Norm?
>
> > House's oncologist friend Wilson was staying with him between
> > marriages. =A0He noted surprise that House had New Yankee Workshop
> > marked as a favorite on his on-screen menu.
>
> > He said "Gee House, I never figured you as the woodworking type."
>
> > House responded (paraphrase): "Oh yeah. =A0A total moron in a building
> > full of ultra-sharp woodworking machinery. =A0As a physician, the
> > suspense is unbearable!"
>
> > But I still like Norm.
>
> > RonB
>
> Norm is a machinist that happens to work in wood rather than metal.

I think you are right. My father in law was a machinist for years and
then started doing wood. He and Norm have a lot in common in the way
they work.
While my father in law can turn out some really beautiful pieces often
there seems to be something missing. Maybe its that the lines are too
straight and the circles too machine perfectly round.

Jimmie

"manyirons" wrote:
-------------------------------------------------
You
didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?
------------------------------------------------------

Remember, "A picture is worth a thousand words"?

Go watch concrete being laid.

Lew

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I don't like the idea of dumbing down
> a class or instructional video to the lowest common dominator of it's
> students intelligence level.

I don't like the idea of dumbing it down too much either. There's plenty of
shows that do that already ~ shows that with a budget of .69 cents and some
decorative flair, anyone can drastically improve their home.

But, I do watch for two things. The first is the new idea, technique or tool
that I haven't seen before. And the second reason I watch is to get an idea
for building something. I'm certainly not the greatest woodworker out there,
but if I see some project I like, I'm advanced enough that I can usually run
with it and build my own modified version.

On Aug 31, 10:42=A0pm, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> > But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> > columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of =
a
> > home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> > maintenance.
>
> > Here's a sample:
>
> > =A0 =A0I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old =
House"
> > =A0 =A0and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason=
: they
> > =A0 =A0make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstra=
tes how
> > =A0 =A0to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of prepar=
ing the
> > =A0 =A0average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides =
nothing
> > =A0 =A0more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that woul=
d be a
> > =A0 =A0lot of fun if you only want to learn that you?as a homeowner or =
stock
> > =A0 =A0broker or bank clerk?know nothing about houses or furniture or n=
ails and
> > =A0 =A0that you?ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a pi=
cture on
> > =A0 =A0the wall.
>
> > =A0 =A0On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. A=
ll the
> > =A0 =A0materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the w=
rong
> > =A0 =A0type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor n=
ever
> > =A0 =A0needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily be=
cause
> > =A0 =A0they fill up with water and will rust out if you don?t do so). T=
hat?s
> > =A0 =A0another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details=
that
> > =A0 =A0fill a contractor?s day (or your day when you play contractor) b=
ut
> > =A0 =A0they?re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. J=
ust pop
> > =A0 =A0the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one com=
es right
> > =A0 =A0out of the other oven.
>
> > (See article at
> >http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
> It sounds like your favorite columnist is hurting for
> things to write about. Does he seriously want Norm to
> stop the show to drain the compressor?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bradley Nailer

Norm could quickly read off a laundry list, some of the items being:

Wear nitrile gloves when using yukkie stuff.
Drain your compressor.
Safety glasses often aren't enough. Wear Goggles.
Do NOT use a hair-dryer in the bath tub.

On Aug 23, 4:24 pm, jo4hn <[email protected]> wrote:

> As has been written here many times, Norm probably didn't frighten
> Maloof or Krenov a whole lot. We all wince when the glue bottle, the
> brad nailer, or the poly brush come out, but he probably had more
> influence on the popularity of hobby woodworking than anybody. Even if
> a fan never brandishes a jig saw in anger, there can be an appreciation
> of the effort (and talent) involved involved in making a decent bench or
> dresser and that can't be bad for those trying to make a buck.

Well said. As a matter of fact, I'll bet he never tried to scare
either of them.

Norm's job is to inspire. What bonehead thinks you will learn the
secrets of fine woodworking, plain woodworking, or anything else
actually, buy watching him for 22 minutes a week?

I must say though, when he starts to finish something, I go get a more
coffee. He is scary. I see those beautiful woods that are no less
than precious down here in S. Texas being slathered with a "special
blend of stains" and then covered with several coats of poly... it is
painful.

But Norm, Tom and the boys do help me make money. I honestly cannot
tell you how many jobs I have gotten where the homeowner started and
couldn't finish. I have one waiting on me now where the homeowner was
inspired to put Hardie on the back of his house. He put the board on
wrong and it leaks. It is broken in places where he tried to pull the
nail out that he bent. He didn't paint it, and now it has a bad case
of efflorescence. WTF is that, right? It ruins the paint job if it
isn't treated. Worse, he bought ALL the siding and stored it
improperly. It might be ruined.

He started the project two years ago.

I just finished one where the homeowner tried to do his own roof
repairs, fascia replacement, siding replacement and painting of the
house. He got exactly one
piece of siding out and replaced. Then it was either too hot, too
cold, rainy, or not a weekend that was open. His wife signed the
contract while he was trying to tell her that he "could get on" some
of the remaining work right away. She told me he started 3 years ago!

My own BIL loves to watch those shows, and gets in deep so fast they
pay me to fix his "projects". He is a great guy and means well, but
he just can't grasp what goes into remodeling/repair. The very first
time I worked on their house, my sister gave me a list of things that
were in various stages of repair/disrepair that he had started. He
likes to go buy a tool, one he saw on the shows, and thinks that will
also give him the skills as well.

It is always funny to me how so many men, especially white collar
guys, feel like their own job is sophisticated, difficult and takes
years of hard work and dedication to master. Yet when they see a blue
collar guy, they may respect the work he does but they feel like they
can do the same work (or near to it), at just a bit slower pace.
Just a bit of practice on the weekends, and they are good to go.

Yeah, right.

But they do indeed make me money. By the time they wave the white
flag, they are so sick of having their backsides chewed off by their
wives they will gladly pay a fair price if they are assured of actual
completion.

So at the guy that "starts the job but can't finish" house, how many
entry way doors have I repaired/reinstalled? How many interior doors
have I hung/rehung? How much crown molding have I put up that was in
the garage for a couple of years? How many cabinets have I installed/
reinstalled? How much refinishing have I redone on cabinets and
tables?

Couldn't tell you. But there have been many times these guys have
paid my bills!
I say long live those guys, and shame on any of you folks that
actually think you can get more than a quick snapshot of a good
tradesman working in 22 minutes.

Robert

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner
>> of a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home
>> repair and
>
> What do you expect? It's Berkeley, where the odds of using any tool
> for its intended purpose (as opposed for deviant sexual practices
> between consenting gophers) is next to nothing. They are good at
> "building" Molotovs and joints there, I have to admit ...

LOL, those were my thoughts exactly. Someone from Berzerkely finding
something to whine about, yeah, why am I not all that surprised?

Jon (who also enjoys watching NASA launch rockets into space, and doesn't
feel that incompetence should be encouraged to make idiots feel better about
themselves).

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>
> Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
> with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
> This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
> this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
> government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
> hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
> department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
> survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.

There were certainly quite a few brilliant minds to came from that area at
the time, that is certain. Pioneering minds, embodying the spirit of the
West, as it were.

>
> As to Norm - I rather like his show. I am smart enough to realize that
> you do not build an armoire' in 22 minutes plus commercials, even with
> every tool Porter Cable makes. I also don't much care for his
> aesthetic sensibility. BUT ... it's nice to watch a master craftsman
> doing his job. It's an good insight into how grown up WWing is done
> for us relative rookies.

The thing I got from watching Norm was the intricacies of his jigs. While
the 30 seconds he showed using the jigs didn't illustrate the time spent in
creating and aligning the jigs, it still sparked the concept in my brain
that the prepwork was really the fundamental reason for success in making
things.

Jon

David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> writes:

> On 8/26/2009 1:29 PM Brian Henderson spake thus:

> Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking
> magazine to drool over?

I'm sorry, but no matter how old I get, a cool new tool will never
replace a great pair of nipples. When they do, that's the day I take a
nail gun to my brain pan. :|

nb

David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:

>Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking magazine
>to drool over?

A sad sign of age. Now, where are my glasses?
-- Doug

"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:230820091638432433%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca...
> In article <[email protected]>, notbob
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> What I've been looking for, and have only been teased, is a dead
>> simple, dirt cheap, outdoor woodfired bread/pizza oven. Apparently
>> the Ancients could build millions of them for centuries using only
>> dirt, water, spit and elbow grease, but for some reason, now it's
>> utterly impossible with anything short of $1500 worth of brick and
>> mortar and another $129 for plans. Not sure if I need the whiz bang
>> hand saw.
>
> Have you seen this one?
>
> <http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac07b.htm>
>


You think you can order the plans for the pizza cutter they were using? LOL

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pete C. wrote:
>> DGDevin wrote:
>>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
>>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>>
>> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
>> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
>> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
>> is equally tedious.
>
>
> A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
> Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.
>
> But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
> for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
> skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
> pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
> weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it for
that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean something new
all the time...New and better products , tools , methods , ect....It takes a
while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL the different tools and
be comfortable on staging then it's closet time for a while and
understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall , screws , beads ,
trim and where they go and installing them , setting up , getting coffee and
making material runs ect..It is a year or so before a rookie is finish
taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms , ect.) and even then he
won't know all the speciality jobs....There is ALOT more to drywall than
taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For starters doing a "typical" drywall
job requires the right tools...I carry over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging
and taping hand tools including my stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun ,
Drywall Cut Out Router , ect , ect.......Not to mention the baker staging ,
pipe staging , platforms and wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum
extension planks , ect. , ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a
mudpan , 6 inch knife and a 12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver
and keyhole saw for hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of
stilts or staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate and
no matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in comparison to a
pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a homeowners good job and
my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to jobs and the homeowner will
say " look at this , I taped this wall , looks good , huh ??" I always smile
and say yup , not bad all the while LMAO inside...And the stories I could
tell about going to jobs that homeowners try to start...ROFLMAO...I'm always
polite though , and say , well atleast you tried....Then proceed to cut out
the loose tape and put an 80 grit pad on the powersander and take it all off
and start over...If the drtwall looks like crap , especially the ceilings ,
no matter how pretty the woodwork looks the room will still look cheesy and
cheap...The thing that shows the most seems to be the thing that always gets
cheaped out....LOL...

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates how
> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing the
> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothing
> more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be a
> lot of fun if you only want to learn that you—as a homeowner or stock
> broker or bank clerk—know nothing about houses or furniture or nails and
> that you’ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture on
> the wall.
>
> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All the
> materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wrong
> type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
> needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
> they fill up with water and will rust out if you don’t do so). That’s
> another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
> fill a contractor’s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
> they’re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just pop
> the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right
> out of the other oven.
>
> (See article at
> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
>
It's not a beginners show. Most people that watch have no problem and
you can get the plans and info on the internet most of the time.

notbob wrote:

>> TOH and similar shows provide ideas to people with some experience
>> of using tools, with tips and guidance to made the job easier, and
>> frankly with inspiration--"Hey, I think I could do that."
>
> Nonsense. In the later shows, it was just getting ridiculous.
> Insanely expensive hi-tech options that any home owner, renovating or
> not, if they were well off enough to afford it, they were at a level
> where they probably didn't give a good goddamn about the technical
> merits/details. Just, "Here's my account. When will it be finished?"
> There was often no owner even on camera, just what's-his-face and the
> contractor. "Well Rick, tell us about these new boron fiber
> impregnated laminates. I understand they're the exact same ones used
> in the latest space shuttle toilet paper."

Of course they feature some razzle-dazzle stuff that no homeowner is likely
to be able to install himself, but that doesn't invalidate the basic premise
of the show. Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring. That's no
different than being unable to handle the high-tech stuff on today's shows,
it's just a matter of degree. I agree that the "This Old Mansion" thing is
sometimes carried too far, but the companies supplying that gee-whiz
technology help to pay for the show too. And five minutes later Tommy is
showing us how to install a garage door or sharpen a chisel--it ain't all
big-bucks high-tech stuff.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking
>>> magazine to drool over?
>>
>> A sad sign of age. Now, where are my glasses?
>
>
> Over here - I have them. And I'm not looking at any damned
> woodworking magazine either!

steward, the screen's got rosier! :)

"notbob" wrote:

> I hafta admit, I was impressed with the duct tape/inner tube arm
> chair. ;)

Are the construction methods approved by the American Duct Tape
Counsel as practiced in Lake Wobegon?

BTW, are you aware you can use duct tape to mow your grass?


Lew

krw wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:01:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Lisa BB." <[email protected]> wrote in news:0025f6e8$0$25938
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> Norm is sexy.
>>>
>> Shit! That means even I have a shot at being sexy to someone!!
>>
>
> Maybe to Harold.
>
> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
> Red Green

What was his other quote? 'If you can't be handsome, at least be handy',
or words to that effect?

--
aem sends...

"Red Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>

> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
> aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
> connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
> big bad Habanero breath on.

They already have it... Renovation Realities on HGTV. I thought I'd see or
heard about every wrong way there was to do things until I saw this show!
The failings of man are clearly unlimited! LOL

John

Has the term inspiration become obsolete? After reading the message I
think I know what direction I would not look for any. What does Cantor
expect? Watch a half hour program and the viewer will have the ability
to build anything?

These shows simply demonstrate what can be done if a person is willing
to apply themselves.

I don't mind giving Norm and all the others some of the credit for
inspiring me. I've watched many of those programs over the last three
or four decades and have learned a lot from them.

I started small years ago building furniture, a rec room and various
DIY projects, and ended up designing and building the house I live in
today.

When I say build I mean I did the building. I hired a contractor to do
the foundation. I did most of the rest of the work with help from
friends and family.

I'm presently building kitchen cupboards, much the same as I saw Norm
building cupboards on his show. I'll post a few photos of the house
and some utility room cupboards I built for practice on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

As for Mr Cantor, I'd give him the credit for having the ability to
discourage someone from ever starting because it will be too hard.

Out of curiosity, has Cantor ever built anything or is he just an
inspector?

By the way, I worked all my adult live as a Technician and didn't know
the first thing about hanging a picture frame when I started. I
learned from my mistakes and kept at it. If Norm can do it so can I.

LdB



David Nebenzahl wrote


> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates how
> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing the
> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothing
> more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be a
> lot of fun if you only want to learn that you—as a homeowner or stock
> broker or bank clerk—know nothing about houses or furniture or nails and
> that you’ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture on
> the wall.
>
> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All the
> materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wrong
> type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
> needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
> they fill up with water and will rust out if you don’t do so). That’s
> another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
> fill a contractor’s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
> they’re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just pop
> the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right
> out of the other oven.
>
> (See article at
> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
>

>
> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
> aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
> connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
> big bad Habanero breath on.

That's almost been done (remember "Home Improvement?")

The problem with PBS is that it gets a lot of "donations" from the folks who
make stuff they install. If they make it look too bad or hard the
effective sponsors will not be happy.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 8/26/2009 1:29 PM Brian Henderson spake thus:
>
>> I will say, Popular Woodworking surprised me, I got it on a whim one
>> year and have kept renewing ever since. FWW, PWW and a multi-year
>> subscription to Wood that someone got me is all I read these days.
>
> Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking magazine
> to drool over?
>
>
Tttoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolll porn!

On 2009-08-23, DGDevin <[email protected]> wrote:

> TOH and similar shows provide ideas to people with some experience of using
> tools, with tips and guidance to made the job easier, and frankly with
> inspiration--"Hey, I think I could do that."

Nonsense. In the later shows, it was just getting ridiculous.
Insanely expensive hi-tech options that any home owner, renovating or
not, if they were well off enough to afford it, they were at a level
where they probably didn't give a good goddamn about the technical
merits/details. Just, "Here's my account. When will it be finished?"
There was often no owner even on camera, just what's-his-face and the
contractor. "Well Rick, tell us about these new boron fiber
impregnated laminates. I understand they're the exact same ones used
in the latest space shuttle toilet paper."

Sure pal. I'll take a dozen to go.

nb

Steve Turner wrote:

> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t
>>> Ratio." It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task
>>> himself compared to the benefit attained from the same.
>>>
... snip
>
> I have a certain level of respect for roofers, especially here in Texas.
> Being on the roof in the hot Texas sun (which I have done) is one of the
> LAST places I'd want to spend my every working day.
>

The hot tar roofers get my vote. Texas or Arizona. In the middle of
summer.


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

In article <[email protected]>,=20
[email protected] says...>=20
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>=20
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite=20
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a=
=20
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and=20
> maintenance.
>=20
> Here's a sample:
>=20
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates ho=
w
> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing th=
e
> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothin=
g
> more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be a
> lot of fun if you only want to learn that you?as a homeowner or stock
> broker or bank clerk?know nothing about houses or furniture or nails a=
nd
> that you?ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture =
on
> the wall.
>=20
> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All the
> materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wrong
> type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
> needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
> they fill up with water and will rust out if you don?t do so). That?s
> another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
> fill a contractor?s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
> they?re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just po=
p
> the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes rig=
ht
> out of the other oven.
>=20
> (See article at=20
> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)

It sounds like your favorite columnist is hurting for
things to write about. Does he seriously want Norm to
stop the show to drain the compressor?

Sincerely,

Bradley Nailer

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
[snip]

As has been written here many times, Norm probably didn't frighten
Maloof or Krenov a whole lot. We all wince when the glue bottle, the
brad nailer, or the poly brush come out, but he probably had more
influence on the popularity of hobby woodworking than anybody. Even if
a fan never brandishes a jig saw in anger, there can be an appreciation
of the effort (and talent) involved involved in making a decent bench or
dresser and that can't be bad for those trying to make a buck.

mahalo,
jo4hn

aemeijers wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> Lee Michaels wrote:
>>> "stan" wrote
>>>
>>> But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
>>> items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
>>> one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home
>>> to get one's own tools!
>>> ==================
>>>
>>
>
> I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid,
> I was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib
> on a apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never
> seemed to come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing
> shovels, chains, 12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run
> to the supply house, I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray
> paint, like they mark pipe locations with. I put big splashes of pink
> on all the tools, and the MIA rate went WAY down. It also made it a
> lot easier to spot orphan tools left laying around the site by the
> casual labor temp crews, most of who vanished after their first
> payday.
> I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
> borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
> office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to
> keep in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

Different context, but one day many moons ago, folk in my office were
horrified when I deliberately use a coin to destroy the paint on a stapler I
had recieved that day. I kept it in use in the office until it broke about
19 years later!

Remember Tippex? I used that to similar good effect.

Robatoy wrote:
> On Aug 30, 4:28 pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> On Aug 24, 1:41 pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> Pete C. wrote:
>>>>>> DGDevin wrote:
>>>>>>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
>>>>>>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>>>>>> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
>>>>>> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
>>>>>> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
>>>>>> is equally tedious.
>>>>> A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
>>>>> Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.
>>>>> But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
>>>>> for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
>>>>> skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
>>>>> pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
>>>>> weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.
>>>> Amen, the only drywall I have ever done was approximately an 8' by 8' wall,
>>>> i.e. two sheets. I futzed over it for days even when i knew it was going to
>>>> be mostly covered by kitchen cabinets and a tile backsplash.
>>>> But it will look good, if someone ever takes the cabinets down.
>>>> ;-)
>>>> --
>>>> Froz...
>>> I suck at drywall. Sure it looks great when I am finally done, but I
>>> really don't have to hold the tolerances of a solid surface
>>> countertop.
>>> I'm in houses, where drywall crews are going at it, at least a couple
>>> of times a week and I clearly see the difference between the hacks and
>>> the pros. It's an art.
>> Agreed, but it would have been impossible to get a pro in for such a
>> small job. I just had to suck it up, and go with it there, I have hired
>> out for bigger jobs.
>>
>> --
>> Froz...
>
> Yup, the small jobs take just as much sometimes as jobs 3 x the size.
> You have to haul your gear, load up and clean up. Just like the big
> jobs.
> In my case, it doesn't matter if I glue up 7 feet or 11 feet of edging
> on a countertop. It's a 12-foot sheet regardless.
> And, in terms of time, I can fabricate a 12-foot job in the same time
> as a 4-foot (give or take a few extra feet of sanding).. the 4-foot
> job comes with a customer who can't get her/his head around the
> price... the 12-foot customer 'gets it' much sooner.
> Small jobs mostly suck unless I can use a remnant which makes up for
> the PITA.

Chuckle. That is one lesson my father the house designer always tries to
impart to his customers- they get the most bang for the buck when they
design the house around standard material sizes. He likes to design
houses where the floor decking and roof decking use full and half
sheets, the joists never need trimming, the foundation only uses full
blocks, etc. Wasted materials annoy him.

--
aem sends...

On 2009-08-25, Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
> Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

BTDT, bought the 10 screwdrivers, whatched 8 go missing next day.

Theft of workplace tools is a plague, second only to being ripped-off
by tool vendors. I had a viable plan to stop tool theft in the work
place, but since the US no long has any workplaces.... :|

nb

On 2009-08-24, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I haven't built one but I plan to. I think the key to success is
> making sure you have enough sand in the mix to control shrinkage.
> Otherwise when it dries it will crack and it will fall apart possibly
> into what you are cooking.

My problem will be finding clay soil. Most my area is sandy porous.

nb

"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> notbob wrote:
>
I agree that the "This Old Mansion" thing is
> sometimes carried too far, but the companies supplying that gee-whiz
> technology help to pay for the show too. And five minutes later Tommy is
> showing us how to install a garage door or sharpen a chisel--it ain't all
> big-bucks high-tech stuff.
>


PLUS! Tommy keeps us up to date on all the new Festool stuff!

"David Nebenzahl" wrote:

<snip>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
> House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason:
> they
> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only
> demonstrates how
> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of
> preparing the
> average Joe or Joan for the task.
<snip>

Trying to lump the NYW with the rest of these DIY operations is like
trying to compare a VW bug with a race car.

Personally I wouldn't consider building more than maybe 20% of Norm's
projects; however, every one of his projects illustrates at least one
new method to solve a problem that is unique.

The specialized fixtures, and some very interesting problem solutions
using a lathe, are just a couple of things that come to mind.

Yes, that damn brad nailer drives me nuts, yes he is dangerous with a
paint brush in his hand, but the shows are well written, the camera
work is quite good and the plans I have purchased were complete and
quite useful.

OTOH, most of the rest of these DIY shows are little more than shills
for the remodeling industry or totally inept wood butchers.

Lew


Te

"aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:01:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Lisa BB." <[email protected]> wrote in news:0025f6e8$0$25938
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Norm is sexy.
>>>>
>>> Shit! That means even I have a shot at being sexy to someone!!
>>>
>>
>> Maybe to Harold.
>>
>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>> Red Green
>
> What was his other quote? 'If you can't be handsome, at least be handy',
> or words to that effect?

I women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy.

Leon wrote:
> "aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> krw wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:01:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lisa BB." <[email protected]> wrote in news:0025f6e8$0$25938
>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> Norm is sexy.
>>>>>
>>>> Shit! That means even I have a shot at being sexy to someone!!
>>>>
>>> Maybe to Harold.
>>>
>>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>>> Red Green
>> What was his other quote? 'If you can't be handsome, at least be handy',
>> or words to that effect?
>
> If women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy.
>
>
>
>
Thanks. that's it.
Cute saying, but I never did find it to apply much in real life....

--
aem sends, alone as always...

On 2009-08-25, Metspitzer <[email protected]> wrote:

> I worked for Watts Bar nuclear plant back in the 80s. A common saying
> on the job was........The government pays TVA to build the plant, and
> pays the NRC to make sure they can't do it.

The thing that scared the crap outta me was an episode on 60 Minutes
investigating NRC inspections of powerplant construction, specifically
the containment vessels for the nuclear material, the heart of the
plant. They interviewed more than one inspector who, years after the
fact, admitted to passing sub-standard construction under not so
genteel persuasion by shady unions. The ol' "we know where your
family lives" kinda thing. No telling how many currently operating
plants (do we still have any?) are iffy. A good example of the shaky
nuclear power plant industry in this country is Rancho Seco in N CA.
The China Syndrome was not bogus science fiction.

Funny we should make fun of France, for they have an excellent nuclear
energy record and actually export energy to other countries. "Freedom
Fries", my ass.

nb

John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Red Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>
>> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
>> aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
>> connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
>> big bad Habanero breath on.
>
> They already have it... Renovation Realities on HGTV. I thought I'd see
> or heard about every wrong way there was to do things until I saw this
> show! The failings of man are clearly unlimited! LOL

Yeah, I agree. My question is, how did anyone know these people were
going to be so completely inept, to the point that they thought to set
up a camera to film it all? It is, like so many other so-called
"reality" shows, entirely staged stupidity.

On 2009-08-23, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:

> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots.

I don't know about that.

> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothing
> more than boutique shopping and showing off.

That's my bitch. Let's make a box. Here, we have my new nuclear
powered, laser guided, atomic clock timed, whiz bang hand saw........
The last episode of This Old House I watched, in disgust, a huge crane
and crew of 10 lowered pre-stressed concrete walls into the basement
of the rustic cabin, which they had apparently completely dismantled
and stored away in a climate controlled warehouse, somewheres. And
Yankee Workshop. "Today we will show you how to construct and use
this pre-Columbian horse drawn hand plane........"

That was the old PBS stuff. Today's DIY is much better. I tuned in
for the much needed "deck" episode. "Here's the old deck. Sucks,
doesn't it. Here's our crew of twenty. Look at'em go! Done. Tune
in next week" WTF!

I get more info here, in a day, than I got from years of watching
those useless shows.

What I've been looking for, and have only been teased, is a dead
simple, dirt cheap, outdoor woodfired bread/pizza oven. Apparently
the Ancients could build millions of them for centuries using only
dirt, water, spit and elbow grease, but for some reason, now it's
utterly impossible with anything short of $1500 worth of brick and
mortar and another $129 for plans. Not sure if I need the whiz bang
hand saw.

nb

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:35 -0700, DGDevin wrote:

> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but would think
> twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

At my age, wire and pipe weigh a lot less than drywall :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

notbob wrote:

> What I've been looking for, and have only been teased, is a dead
> simple, dirt cheap, outdoor woodfired bread/pizza oven. Apparently
> the Ancients could build millions of them for centuries using only
> dirt, water, spit and elbow grease, but for some reason, now it's
> utterly impossible with anything short of $1500 worth of brick and
> mortar and another $129 for plans. Not sure if I need the whiz bang
> hand saw.
>
> nb

Mother Earth News has plans on how to do this.


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/2002-10-01/Build-Your-Own-Wood-Fired-Earth-Oven.aspx

David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
> a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
> and maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
> House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple
> reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only
> demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy
> job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end,
> the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping and showing
> off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only want to learn
> that you—as a homeowner or stock broker or bank clerk—know nothing
> about houses or furniture or nails and that you’ll never stand a
> chance of doing more than hanging a picture on the wall.
>
> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
> wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
> compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
> compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust out
> if you don’t do so). That’s another thing I hate: in actuality,
> there are many small details that fill a contractor’s day (or your
> day when you play contractor) but they’re neatly edited out, just
> as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven and
> Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other oven.
>
> (See article at
> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
>

So many of my thought he printed.

They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
big bad Habanero breath on.

ransley <[email protected]> wrote in
news:3d4a8d28-1392-40cd-910f-8b399aa26dfd@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 23, 3:25 pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner
>> of a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home
>> repair and maintenance.
>>
>> Here's a sample:
>>
>>    I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old Ho
> use"
>>    and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason:
> they
>>    make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrate
> s how
>>    to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparin
> g the
>>    average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides no
> thing
>>    more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would
> be a
>>    lot of fun if you only want to learn that you—as a homeowner or
> stock
>>    broker or bank clerk—know nothing about houses or furniture or n
> ails and
>>    that you’ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a pi
> cture on
>>    the wall.
>>
>>    On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
> the
>>    materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wro
> ng
>>    type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor nev
> er
>>    needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily beca
> use
>>    they fill up with water and will rust out if you don’t do so). T
> hat’s
>>    another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details t
> hat
>>    fill a contractor’s day (or your day when you play contractor) b
> ut
>>    they’re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. J
> ust pop
>>    the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes
> right
>>    out of the other oven.
>>
>> (See article
>> athttp://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33
> 531)
>>
>> --
>> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
>
> Its a Show, you are to only get ideas from it, or do you think they
> should spend alot of their time scraping paint, taping, cutting etc,
> then it would be boring and off tv. I bet they make a very good
> living, and thats why they do it.


Yea but at least once in a while, ya know..like first Saturday of the
month or something, show a DIY roofer plug a nail into his kneecap. Make
a nice lead-in to removing it on the Operation show..

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 2009-08-23, Red Green <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Yea but at least once in a while, ya know..like first Saturday of the
>> month or something, show a DIY roofer plug a nail into his kneecap.
>> Make a nice lead-in to removing it on the Operation show..
>
> LOL......
>
> You kid, but.... My late brother, a master carpenter, DID put a 16 box
> through the last 3 fingers of his hammer hand w/ a nail gun.
> Amazingly, missed all bones. He was hand hammer framing within a
> week.
>
> nb
>

I chose that bit because a guy I worked with did roofing on the side and
actually did it. Firemen brought him off the roof with a strap around his
thigh and lower leg to keep it from unbending it and moving. It was
pinned.

A 1-1/4 is a lot different than a 16 but then again, I never heard anyone
actually make a choice between the two.

Metspitzer <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:57:53 -0400, aemeijers <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Winston wrote:
>>> Lee Michaels wrote:
>>>> "stan" wrote
>>>>
>>>> But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
>>>> items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
>>>> one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home
>>>> to get one's own tools!
>>>> ==================
>>>>
>>>> Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in
>>>> newly rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case
>>>> they were needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and
>>>> general fix it wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some
>>>> tools and brought them to work! It was a constant battle to get
>>>> the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted
>>>> to give them back.
>>>
>>> Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.
>>>
>>> I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
>>> I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
>>> of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
>>> essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.
>>>
>>> That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
>>> It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
>>> the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
>>> walkabout.
>>>
>>> --Winston
>>
>>I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid,
>>I was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib on
>>a apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never seemed
>>to come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing shovels,
>>chains, 12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run to the
>>supply house, I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray paint,
>>like they mark pipe locations with. I put big splashes of pink on all
>>the tools, and the MIA rate went WAY down. It also made it a lot
>>easier to spot orphan tools left laying around the site by the casual
>>labor temp crews, most of who vanished after their first payday.
>>
>>I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
>>borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
>>office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to
>>keep in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.
>
> I put a circle of red and a circle of green on the handle of my tools.
> People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
> tools back from the honest people.
>
> People from other trades even knew who they belonged to.


COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! Expect a visit from the Possum Van.

"Lisa BB." <[email protected]> wrote in news:0025f6e8$0$25938
[email protected]:

> Norm is sexy.
>

Shit! That means even I have a shot at being sexy to someone!!

....


Heeeeeey, you're not a guy or one of those "sh'im"s are ya?

Douglas Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking magazine
>>to drool over?
>
> A sad sign of age. Now, where are my glasses?
> -- Doug



> A sad sign of age.

FatMax tapes and fat asses both are OK.

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking
>> magazine to drool over?
>
> A sad sign of age. Now, where are my glasses?

Prior to reading this, I'd taken a slurp of red wine. I'm now viewing the
monitor through rose tinted glasses, I think! :)

"Metspitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:03:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> I hope the DIY's come out on the Internet. I have already seen some
> pretty useful ones.
>
> What I really want to see is something you have to bring home and
> assemble that comes with a link where you can watch the assembly of
> the exact product on the Internet.
>

Do you think that a Chinese instructional video is going to help much? LOL

"Red Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
>> a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
>> and maintenance.
>>
>> Here's a sample:
>>
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
>> House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple
>> reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only
>> demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy
>> job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end,
>> the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping and showing
>> off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only want to learn
>> that you-as a homeowner or stock broker or bank clerk-know nothing
>> about houses or furniture or nails and that you'll never stand a
>> chance of doing more than hanging a picture on the wall.
>>
>> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
>> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
>> wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
>> compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
>> compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust out
>> if you don't do so). That's another thing I hate: in actuality,
>> there are many small details that fill a contractor's day (or your
>> day when you play contractor) but they're neatly edited out, just
>> as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven and
>> Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other oven.
>>
>> (See article at
>> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>>
>>
>
> So many of my thought he printed.
>
> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
> aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
> connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
> big bad Habanero breath on.


Or twists the wrench and every bad word the victim ever learned plus some
made up on the spot comes out of his mouth as he tries to stop the bleeding
and quell the pain ...

On Aug 23, 4:25=A0pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> =A0 =A0I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old Ho=
use"
> =A0 =A0and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: =
they
> =A0 =A0make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrate=
s how
> =A0 =A0to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparin=
g the
> =A0 =A0average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides no=
thing
> =A0 =A0more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would =
be a
> =A0 =A0lot of fun if you only want to learn that you=97as a homeowner or =
stock
> =A0 =A0broker or bank clerk=97know nothing about houses or furniture or n=
ails and
> =A0 =A0that you=92ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a pi=
cture on
> =A0 =A0the wall.
>
> =A0 =A0On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All=
the
> =A0 =A0materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wro=
ng
> =A0 =A0type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor nev=
er
> =A0 =A0needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily beca=
use
> =A0 =A0they fill up with water and will rust out if you don=92t do so). T=
hat=92s
> =A0 =A0another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details t=
hat
> =A0 =A0fill a contractor=92s day (or your day when you play contractor) b=
ut
> =A0 =A0they=92re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. J=
ust pop
> =A0 =A0the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes=
right
> =A0 =A0out of the other oven.
>
> (See article athttp://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33=
531)
>
> --
> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

They are definately not woodworking for dummies shows but I get a lot
of good ideas from them. Most of us know it is going to take all day
to do one step in his .project that it takes 5 minutes to do on TV.
That is just just the reality of DIY hobby woodworking. Hell it took
me 4 months to build my wife a cedar chest. Now my daughter wants one
and expects me to have it built over a weekend. Now thats the problem
with those shows. I t gives unrealistic ideas to those who want you to
use your woodworking skills for them.

Jimmie

On Aug 24, 1:41=A0pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > Pete C. wrote:
> >> DGDevin wrote:
> >>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
> >>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> >> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> >> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> >> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
> >> is equally tedious.
>
> > A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
> > Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.
>
> > But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
> > for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
> > skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
> > pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
> > weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.
>
> Amen, the only drywall I have ever done was approximately an 8' by 8' wal=
l,
> i.e. two sheets. =A0I futzed over it for days even when i knew it was goi=
ng to
> be mostly covered by kitchen cabinets and a tile backsplash.
>
> But it will look good, if someone ever takes the cabinets down.
> ;-)
>
> --
> Froz...

I suck at drywall. Sure it looks great when I am finally done, but I
really don't have to hold the tolerances of a solid surface
countertop.
I'm in houses, where drywall crews are going at it, at least a couple
of times a week and I clearly see the difference between the hacks and
the pros. It's an art.

"Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Who needs Playboy or Penthouse when one has a good woodworking magazine
>>to drool over?
>
> A sad sign of age. Now, where are my glasses?


Over here - I have them. And I'm not looking at any damned woodworking
magazine either!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> benick wrote:
>>>
>> It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it
>> for that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean something
>> new all the time...New and better products , tools , methods , ect....It
>> takes a while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL the
>> different tools and be comfortable on staging then it's closet time for a
>> while and understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall , screws
>> , beads , trim and where they go and installing them , setting up ,
>> getting coffee and making material runs ect..It is a year or so before a
>> rookie is finish taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms ,
>> ect.) and even then he won't know all the speciality jobs....There is
>> ALOT more to drywall than taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For
>> starters doing a "typical" drywall job requires the right tools...I carry
>> over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging and taping hand tools including my
>> stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun , Drywall Cut Out Router , ect ,
>> ect.......Not to mention the baker staging , pipe staging , platforms and
>> wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum extension planks , ect. ,
>> ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a mudpan , 6 inch knife and a
>> 12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver and keyhole saw for
>> hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of stilts or
>> staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate and no
>> matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in comparison to a
>> pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a homeowners good job
>> and my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to jobs and the
>> homeowner will say " look at this , I taped this wall , looks good , huh
>> ??" I always smile and say yup , not bad all the while LMAO inside...And
>> the stories I could tell about going to jobs that homeowners try to
>> start...ROFLMAO...I'm always polite though , and say , well atleast you
>> tried....Then proceed to cut out the loose tape and put an 80 grit pad on
>> the powersander and take it all off and start over...If the drtwall looks
>> like crap , especially the ceilings , no matter how pretty the woodwork
>> looks the room will still look cheesy and cheap...The thing that shows
>> the most seems to be the thing that always gets cheaped out....LOL...
>
>
> When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use the
> excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out there
in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
everything.....

On Aug 24, 3:17=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:

> ...
> As the crew started to work that concrete, I was impressed by how
> little I really knew about how to lay concrete.
>
> I was also very grateful I had hired somebody who knew what they were
> doing.
>
> I decided then and there to add concrete laying to the jobs I hire
> out, the others being car repair and brain surgery.
>
> That was 40 years ago.
>
> If I had tried to lay that concrete, it still would not be done.
>
> Lew

I had been thinking I might exchange deckblocks for a concrete pad
under my shed (and if that goes well, maybe someday a foundation for a
whole detached shop). I had also been thinking I'd do it myself. You
didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?

- Owen -

<[email protected]> wrote:

> But Norm, Tom and the boys do help me make money. I honestly cannot
> tell you how many jobs I have gotten where the homeowner started and
> couldn't finish.
<snip>

As someone who started building model airplanes before I was 10, I got
started early.

Worked thru high school at a hardware store back in the days when the
owner expected you to know how to help customers solve problems.

Especially on Saturday morning when someone, who was in the process of
moving, walked in with a handful of pipe fittings and a look of
impending disaster on his face.

How does he get the stove reconnected at the new place so his wife can
cook dinner tonight?

The list goes on, but you get the idea.

Went to school on a CO-OP program.

Translation: 3 months in class, 3 months working in industry.

By the time I had finished school, had acquired a pretty decent skill
set of academic engineering skills and the ability to understand what
was required on the production floor to implement
them.

Hated working on cars but otherwise there was NOTHING I wouldn't try.

Fear, what's fear?

A few years later, had a house and wanted to expand a concrete patio
slab
and maybe build a shed roof over part of it.

Laid out the area, stripped the grass away, and set the forms.

Had a couple of loads of foundry sand delivered and got very friendly
with a wheel barrow to move that sand from the drive apron to the back
yard where it provided the base material for the slab.

Had gotten prices for concrete, I was ready to go.

Before I committed, decided to call as concrete guy in the
neighborhood whose
son just happened to be in the same class as my daughter.

He reluctantly agreed to look at the job.

Told me prep work was OK but my forms needed a few more stakes and of
course would need mesh.

Mesh? What the heck is "mesh" I thought.

I found out.

Also told me it was a half day job.

As all this was going on, next door neighbor came over and indicated
that they were planning to expand their patio someday and maybe if
both jobs were done the same day, maybe we could work something out.

Needless to say, we did.

The day arrived, the contractor was on time with his equipment, and
things got started.

The contractor got organized, the concrete truck showed up, and things
got started.

I was impressed.

First the gas buggy gets a load of concrete from the truck and brings
it back.

(I was going to try to use that wheel barrow)

As the crew started to work that concrete, I was impressed by how
little I really knew about how to lay concrete.

I was also very grateful I had hired somebody who knew what they were
doing.

I decided then and there to add concrete laying to the jobs I hire
out, the others being car repair and brain surgery.

That was 40 years ago.

If I had tried to lay that concrete, it still would not be done.

Lew

On 2009-08-23, Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

>
> Have you seen this one?
>
><http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac07b.htm>
>
> Lots more:
>
><http://mha-net.org/html/lyle/lyle01.htm>

I can imagine the materials bill for either of them.


> (no bricks!)
><http://mha-net.org/html/lyle/lyle04.htm>
><http://www.geocities.com/mosesrocket/>

Now this is more like it. I'll definitely check out both sites,
specially the masonary heater site. Thank you.

nb

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> If women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy.

And just maybe, if they find him handy, they'll realize he's good for other
services too. :)

Steve Turner wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>> On 2009-08-30, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Over your head, eh?
>>
>> Yep. Deep stuff. Hee Haw was equally profound.
>>
>> nb
>
> Yeah well, the percentage of time I sit down at the TV looking for
> something "deep" or "profound" is pretty close to never. I'm almost
> always trying to accomplish *something*, and time spent in front of the
> TV is time that's a-wasting. When I finally decide I have absolutely
> nothing better to do and all I desire is sit down, relax, and waste some
> serious time, mindless entertainment is what I seek and Red Green fits
> the bill quite nicely. There's nothing deep about it, and that's the
> way I like it. I quite enjoy Hee-Haw too, thank you very much.
>
How many rolls of duct tape do you have within arms reach?

Mysterious Traveler

Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
>with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
>This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
>this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
>government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
>hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
>department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
>survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.

I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.

The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.

A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.

-- Doug

On 2009-08-23, Red Green <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yea but at least once in a while, ya know..like first Saturday of the
> month or something, show a DIY roofer plug a nail into his kneecap. Make
> a nice lead-in to removing it on the Operation show..

LOL......

You kid, but.... My late brother, a master carpenter, DID put a 16 box
through the last 3 fingers of his hammer hand w/ a nail gun.
Amazingly, missed all bones. He was hand hammer framing within a week.

nb

On Aug 30, 4:28=A0pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 1:41 pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> Pete C. wrote:
> >>>> DGDevin wrote:
> >>>>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
> >>>>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
> >>>> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> >>>> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> >>>> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painti=
ng
> >>>> is equally tedious.
> >>> A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
> >>> Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.
> >>> But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, ev=
en
> >>> for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
> >>> skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taki=
ng
> >>> pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
> >>> weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.
> >> Amen, the only drywall I have ever done was approximately an 8' by 8' =
wall,
> >> i.e. two sheets. =A0I futzed over it for days even when i knew it was =
going to
> >> be mostly covered by kitchen cabinets and a tile backsplash.
>
> >> But it will look good, if someone ever takes the cabinets down.
> >> ;-)
>
> >> --
> >> Froz...
>
> > I suck at drywall. Sure it looks great when I am finally done, but I
> > really don't have to hold the tolerances of a solid surface
> > countertop.
> > I'm in houses, where drywall crews are going at it, at least a couple
> > of times a week and I clearly see the difference between the hacks and
> > the pros. It's an art.
>
> Agreed, but it would have been impossible to get a pro in for such a
> small job. =A0I just had to suck it up, and go with it there, I have hire=
d
> out for bigger jobs.
>
> --
> Froz...

Yup, the small jobs take just as much sometimes as jobs 3 x the size.
You have to haul your gear, load up and clean up. Just like the big
jobs.
In my case, it doesn't matter if I glue up 7 feet or 11 feet of edging
on a countertop. It's a 12-foot sheet regardless.
And, in terms of time, I can fabricate a 12-foot job in the same time
as a 4-foot (give or take a few extra feet of sanding).. the 4-foot
job comes with a customer who can't get her/his head around the
price... the 12-foot customer 'gets it' much sooner.
Small jobs mostly suck unless I can use a remnant which makes up for
the PITA.

On Aug 30, 6:30=A0pm, aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote:


> Chuckle. That is one lesson my father the house designer always tries to
> impart to his customers- they get the most bang for the buck when they
> design the house around standard material sizes. He likes to design
> houses where the floor decking and roof decking use full and half
> sheets, the joists never need trimming, the foundation only uses full
> blocks, etc. Wasted materials annoy him.

My husband has a friend who's having some space bumped out of her
2nd floor--the standard giant shed dormer kind of thing. The original
plan was to have the side wall come out to the existing wall, which
would have carried the load nicely. She has some other friend who's
an architect, who said that the dormer would look better smaller, so
now the builder has to transfer the load a couple feet out to the
existing
wall. The net addition is about 15% smaller than the original plan,
and
she was surprised that the quote didn't come in at 15% less. She's
lucky it isn't more.

Cindy Hamilton

On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:06:26 GMT, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"manyirons" wrote:
>-------------------------------------------------
>You
>didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
>contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>Remember, "A picture is worth a thousand words"?
>
>Go watch concrete being laid.

...AFTER reading a book on concrete work.

http://fwd4.me/20e or http://fwd4.me/20f , etc.

I found Black & Decker's _The Complete Outdoor Builder_ for a couple
bucks on eBay and it helped me with my first set of steps.

--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:53:17 GMT, notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2009-08-29, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>> Red Green
>
>Red Green was funny for about two and a half episodes.

SWMBO didn't think it funny that long. Just shows that some have no
sense of humor.

In news:[email protected],
Red Green <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
> David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>=20
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>=20
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner
>> of a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home
>> repair and maintenance.
>>=20
>> Here's a sample:
>>=20
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
>> House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple
>> reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show
>> only demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does
>> a lousy job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In
>> the end, the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping
>> and showing off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only
>> want to learn that you-as a homeowner or stock broker or bank
>> clerk-know nothing about houses or furniture or nails and that
>> you'll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture
>> on the wall.=20
>>=20
>> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
>> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
>> wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
>> compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
>> compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust
>> out if you don't do so). That's another thing I hate: in
>> actuality, there are many small details that fill a contractor's
>> day (or your day when you play contractor) but they're neatly
>> edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw
>> one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right
>> out of the other oven.=20
>>=20
>> (See article at
>> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> So many of my thought he printed.
>=20
> They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the
> victim, aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every
> pipe connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla
> blew his big bad Habanero breath on.

We got one on H&G.

It's called "Holmes on Homes".

He is always dumping on the previous "contractor" who either didn't =
finish of screwed up royally but still managed to make off with a ton of =
money.

P D Q

In =
news:a7086cc7-046e-427d-b2c6-0d7ab4c0b4b6@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com,
JIMMIE <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
> On Aug 23, 4:25 pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>=20
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner
>> of a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home
>> repair and maintenance.
>>=20
>> Here's a sample:
>>=20
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
>> House"=20
>> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason:
>> they=20
>> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates
>> how=20
>> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing
>> the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides
>> nothing=20
>> more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be
>> a=20
>> lot of fun if you only want to learn that you=97as a homeowner or =
stock
>> broker or bank clerk=97know nothing about houses or furniture or =
nails
>> and that you=92ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a
>> picture on=20
>> the wall.
>>=20
>> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
>> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
>> wrong=20
>> type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
>> needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
>> they fill up with water and will rust out if you don=92t do so). =
That=92s
>> another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
>> fill a contractor=92s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
>> they=92re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just
>> pop=20
>> the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes
>> right=20
>> out of the other oven.
>>=20
>> (See article
>> athttp://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
>=20
> They are definately not woodworking for dummies shows but I get a lot
> of good ideas from them. Most of us know it is going to take all day
> to do one step in his .project that it takes 5 minutes to do on TV.
> That is just just the reality of DIY hobby woodworking. Hell it took
> me 4 months to build my wife a cedar chest. Now my daughter wants one
> and expects me to have it built over a weekend. Now thats the problem
> with those shows. I t gives unrealistic ideas to those who want you to
> use your woodworking skills for them.
>=20
> Jimmie

You probably can get it built over a weekend.

Just don't tell her which one. LOL

P D Q

Pete C. wrote:
> DGDevin wrote:
>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
> is equally tedious.


A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.

But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

benick wrote:
>>
> It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it
> for that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean
> something new all the time...New and better products , tools , methods ,
> ect....It takes a while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL
> the different tools and be comfortable on staging then it's closet time
> for a while and understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall ,
> screws , beads , trim and where they go and installing them , setting up
> , getting coffee and making material runs ect..It is a year or so before
> a rookie is finish taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms ,
> ect.) and even then he won't know all the speciality jobs....There is
> ALOT more to drywall than taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For
> starters doing a "typical" drywall job requires the right tools...I
> carry over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging and taping hand tools
> including my stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun , Drywall Cut Out Router ,
> ect , ect.......Not to mention the baker staging , pipe staging ,
> platforms and wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum extension
> planks , ect. , ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a mudpan , 6
> inch knife and a 12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver and
> keyhole saw for hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of
> stilts or staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate
> and no matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in
> comparison to a pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a
> homeowners good job and my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to
> jobs and the homeowner will say " look at this , I taped this wall ,
> looks good , huh ??" I always smile and say yup , not bad all the while
> LMAO inside...And the stories I could tell about going to jobs that
> homeowners try to start...ROFLMAO...I'm always polite though , and say ,
> well atleast you tried....Then proceed to cut out the loose tape and put
> an 80 grit pad on the powersander and take it all off and start
> over...If the drtwall looks like crap , especially the ceilings , no
> matter how pretty the woodwork looks the room will still look cheesy and
> cheap...The thing that shows the most seems to be the thing that always
> gets cheaped out....LOL...


When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use the
excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/23/2009 1:25 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

[yes, it's Abram, not Abrams. Apparently they didn't name the tank after
him.]

> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots.

Heh; got some junk mail from /Popular Woodworking/ today (don't think
I'll subscribe, as I got spoiled from reading /Fine Woodworking/). The
pitch features the cover from their August 2005 issue, with a photo of
Norm in his shop. The article title is "In the Shop with Norm Abram: We
Debunk 7 Myths About TV's Frugal Yankee".

Wonder what the myths are. Anyone have this issue lying around?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

benick wrote:
>> When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use
>> the excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."
>>
>> -MIKE-
>>
>
> Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out
> there in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
> everything.....


The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
compared to the benefit attained from the same.

The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.

I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "stan" wrote
>
> But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
> items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
> one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
> get one's own tools!
> ==================
>
> Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly rented
> offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were needed. I
> suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it wizard. My
> qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought them to work! It
> was a constant battle to get the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the
> tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.

That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
walkabout.

--Winston

Luigi Zanasi wrote:
> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
>> It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
>> compared to the benefit attained from the same.
>>
>> The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
>> have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
>> of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.
>>
>> I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
>> because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
>> cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
>> dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)
>
> My view is that I only do the stuff that's fun or that I can't trust
> others to do right. The rest, I hire someone. Drywall is no longer
> fun. Roofing is for people who don't have vertigo.
>
> Luigi

I have a certain level of respect for roofers, especially here in Texas. Being on the roof
in the hot Texas sun (which I have done) is one of the LAST places I'd want to spend my
every working day.

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-08-29, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>> Red Green
>
> Red Green was funny for about two and a half episodes.
>
> nb

Over your head, eh?

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

notbob wrote:
> On 2009-08-30, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Over your head, eh?
>
> Yep. Deep stuff. Hee Haw was equally profound.
>
> nb

Yeah well, the percentage of time I sit down at the TV looking for
something "deep" or "profound" is pretty close to never. I'm almost
always trying to accomplish *something*, and time spent in front of the
TV is time that's a-wasting. When I finally decide I have absolutely
nothing better to do and all I desire is sit down, relax, and waste some
serious time, mindless entertainment is what I seek and Red Green fits
the bill quite nicely. There's nothing deep about it, and that's the
way I like it. I quite enjoy Hee-Haw too, thank you very much.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

RonB wrote:
> Did anyone catch the quote from the TV Show "House" about Norm?
>
> House's oncologist friend Wilson was staying with him between
> marriages. He noted surprise that House had New Yankee Workshop
> marked as a favorite on his on-screen menu.
>
> He said "Gee House, I never figured you as the woodworking type."
>
> House responded (paraphrase): "Oh yeah. A total moron in a building
> full of ultra-sharp woodworking machinery. As a physician, the
> suspense is unbearable!"
>
> But I still like Norm.
>
> RonB
Norm is a machinist that happens to work in wood rather than metal. For
a few shows, they made of point of explaining how some steps could be
done with normal tools versus the high-dollar specialty tools, but I
haven't seen that lately. But him and his buddy Tom are definitely
master carpenters, and if I was a (very) rich man, I'd happily hire them
both to build or rebuild a house for me. You can't fake that easy
familiarity with the tools, the materials, and the process. I grew up in
the business, and saw and worked with enough real carpenters and idiots,
to know the difference. Other than making me feel like an inadequate
klutz, watching the pros work was always an educational pleasure. Most
of them, unless they were on deadline, didn't mind me watching and
asking questions. I learned a lot from them.

I liked TOH much better in the early days, in spite of that idiot BV.
The projects had something to do with reality back then, and Norm was
still a working contractor. (Not sure if Tommy still is- I never see him
wearing the 'Silva Brothers' shirts any more.) They also had the owners
actually doing work back then, unlike most of the current 'This Old
Mansion' projects. The New Orleans arc a couple years ago had a little
of that old flavor, with some things actually going wrong. On the out of
town projects, they aren't involved as closely, and things still go
wrong that can't be edited out.

I think people bitching about the yuppification of TOH is why they
started the companion show, Ask TOH. Around here, that has basically
driven NYW off the schedule- I only trip across that a few times a year
any more, on the local PBS.

--
aem sends....

-MIKE- wrote:
> Pete C. wrote:
>> DGDevin wrote:
>>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
>>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>>
>> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
>> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
>> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
>> is equally tedious.
>
>
> A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
> Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.
>
> But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
> for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
> skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
> pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
> weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.
>
Amen, the only drywall I have ever done was approximately an 8' by 8' wall,
i.e. two sheets. I futzed over it for days even when i knew it was going to
be mostly covered by kitchen cabinets and a tile backsplash.

But it will look good, if someone ever takes the cabinets down.
;-)

--
Froz...

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:25:43 -0700, David Nebenzahl
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
>But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
>home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
>maintenance.
>
>Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop."

First off I don't think it's fair to lump Hometime in with TOH. The
latter no longer offers any educational value whatsoever while the
former does a pretty good job. And they have even spent time showing
how to assemble knock down cabinets, so if that's over their heads
then please don't ever let them touch a hammer. In any case the idea
is really to give the homeowner some idea of what goes on so they are
better able to ask the right questions of the pros, not necessarily to
make them able to do it themselves.

Norm, well I doubt I would be where I am today if it weren't for him.
Sure everything always goes swimmingly for him, and really you learn
the most from your mistakes and by never showing anything going wrong
that opportunity is never presented. As the saying goes, the
difference between an amateur and a pro is the pro knows how to fix
his mistakes. But for the format of the show it just isn't feasible.

There's a lot of accumulation of knowledge that has to happen. If
Norm makes it look easy and people try and give up, that really isn't
Norm's fault. But if he gives you a look at what is possible and you
find your own way from there, that's a good thing. There's a lot of
well equipped shops out there with everything but someone who knows
what to do with it, but that's true of every hobby.

-Kevin

On 2009-08-23, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mother Earth News has plans on how to do this.
>
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/2002-10-01/Build-Your-Own-Wood-Fired-Earth-Oven.aspx

Excellent. Not as detailed as I could wish, but enough to give me
solid ideas in right direction. Thank you.

Funny you should find it in MEN. I read that magazine for years after
its first issue. Musta given away a few hundred copies. Glad that
stuff is online.

nb

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:01:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Lisa BB." <[email protected]> wrote in news:0025f6e8$0$25938
>[email protected]:
>
>> Norm is sexy.
>>
>
>Shit! That means even I have a shot at being sexy to someone!!
>

Maybe to Harold.

"If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
Red Green

Winston wrote:
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "stan" wrote
>>
>> But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
>> items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
>> one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
>> get one's own tools!
>> ==================
>>
>> Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly
>> rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were
>> needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it
>> wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought
>> them to work! It was a constant battle to get the tools back.
>> Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.
>
> Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.
>
> I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
> I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
> of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
> essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.
>
> That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
> It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
> the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
> walkabout.
>
> --Winston

I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid, I
was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib on a
apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never seemed to
come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing shovels, chains,
12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run to the supply house,
I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray paint, like they mark pipe
locations with. I put big splashes of pink on all the tools, and the MIA
rate went WAY down. It also made it a lot easier to spot orphan tools
left laying around the site by the casual labor temp crews, most of who
vanished after their first payday.

I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to keep
in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

--
aem sends...

Douglas Johnson wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
>> with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
>> This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
>> this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
>> government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
>> hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
>> department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
>> survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.
>
> I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
> nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
> gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.

Gasp! And you survived? You're not deformed for life? How is this
possible? Everyone know that only smelly hippie power is safe ...

>
> The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
> nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.

I dunno about that. I rather think the gummint still has a lot to say
about the top level routers, at least in the U.S., or at least they
*could* in theory. Certainly, both under Dems and Repubs, they've
managed to get data "wiretap" laws installed that allows the gummint
to stick its beak in our digital lives.

>
> A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
> certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.
>
> -- Doug

Hmmm. I took a course in BSD TCP/IP internals from Mike Karels and
Kirk McKusick, both of Berzerkely CSRG fame. Perhaps what Karels did
was a first implementation of TCP/IP on Unix, but I'm pretty sure he
did of TCP/IP "first" of some kind. Nevertheless, your point is
taken...



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:03:21 -0500, Red Green <[email protected]>
wrote:

>David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>>
>> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
>> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
>> a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
>> and maintenance.
>>
>> Here's a sample:
>>
>> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
>> House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple
>> reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only
>> demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy
>> job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end,
>> the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping and showing
>> off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only want to learn
>> that you—as a homeowner or stock broker or bank clerk—know nothing
>> about houses or furniture or nails and that you’ll never stand a
>> chance of doing more than hanging a picture on the wall.
>>
>> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
>> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
>> wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
>> compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
>> compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust out
>> if you don’t do so). That’s another thing I hate: in actuality,
>> there are many small details that fill a contractor’s day (or your
>> day when you play contractor) but they’re neatly edited out, just
>> as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven and
>> Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other oven.
>>
>> (See article at
>> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>>
>>
>
> So many of my thought he printed.
>
>They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
>aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
>connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
>big bad Habanero breath on.

I hope the DIY's come out on the Internet. I have already seen some
pretty useful ones.

What I really want to see is something you have to bring home and
assemble that comes with a link where you can watch the assembly of
the exact product on the Internet.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.
>
> But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
> columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
> home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and

What do you expect? It's Berkeley, where the odds of using any tool
for its intended purpose (as opposed for deviant sexual practices
between consenting gophers) is next to nothing. They are good at
"building" Molotovs and joints there, I have to admit ...



> maintenance.
>
> Here's a sample:
>
> I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
> and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
> make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates how
> to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing the
> average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothing
> more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be a
> lot of fun if you only want to learn that you—as a homeowner or stock
> broker or bank clerk—know nothing about houses or furniture or nails and
> that you’ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture on
> the wall.
>
> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All the
> materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wrong
> type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
> needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
> they fill up with water and will rust out if you don’t do so). That’s
> another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
> fill a contractor’s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
> they’re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just pop
> the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right
> out of the other oven.
>
> (See article at
> http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-08-20/article/33531)
>
>


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> DGDevin wrote:
>>
>> Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
>> would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.
>
> I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
> painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
> however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
> is equally tedious.


Dang Devin, sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture is
tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:28:32 -0500, Douglas Johnson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
>>with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
>>This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
>>this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
>>government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
>>hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
>>department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
>>survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.
>
>I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
>nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
>gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.
>
>The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
>nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.
>
>A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
>certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.
>
>-- Doug

I worked for Watts Bar nuclear plant back in the 80s. A common saying
on the job was........The government pays TVA to build the plant, and
pays the NRC to make sure they can't do it.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

> On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
> the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
> wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
> compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
> compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust out
> if you don’t do so). That’s another thing I hate: in actuality,
> there are many small details that fill a contractor’s day (or your
> day when you play contractor) but they’re neatly edited out, just
> as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven and
> Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other oven.

This really misses the point. Shows like TOH aren't meant to provide
all-encompassing A-Z instruction for people who have never held a hammer in
their entire lives, that's probably not possible on TV as there are too many
things people have to experience themselves to really understand. They know
there are some things we'll pick up quickly (that's why they have experts
who coach the homeowners through the basics) while there are more
complicated jobs aimed at those who already know the difference between a
jigsaw and a drill press.

Watching a video isn't a substitute for having the tool in your own hands
and learning how to use it via the time-honored method of making mistakes.
TOH and similar shows provide ideas to people with some experience of using
tools, with tips and guidance to made the job easier, and frankly with
inspiration--"Hey, I think I could do that." Expecting such a show to teach
someone how to tie their shoes and wipe their nose is ridiculous, that isn't
the purpose. Anyone who has done household repairs and upgrades knows it
will take a lot longer and involve a few mistakes as compared to a TV show,
who believes otherwise?

NYW is a whole different animal, it's aimed at people who already have a
garage full of tools and some idea of how to use them--that Norm appears on
both shows is irrelevant. Seriously, who expects things to go together as
easily as Tommy or Norm make it look? What a misplaced complaint, but if
the guy gets paid to write such foolishness I suppose he's laughing all the
way to the bank.