Bad purchase, cheapo table saw

> Most U.S. Americans these days don't have the most common of=20
>=20
> knowledge's, common sense. They don't realize and therefore can not=20
>=20
> appreciate the value in buying a quality product. I attribute a lot of=
=20

> Next speaker! ;~)

From that statement I think you think you are way smarter than most people =
and I think you are wrong.

Most people are just as smart and aware as you, they just make different de=
cisions than you would make. Somehow you think your decisions are undoubted=
ly correct and theirs are wrong; when in reality theirs are just different.=
=20

You can present all the logic you want for the correctness of your decision=
s but it doesn't make any case at all for why their different decision is n=
ot also correct, for them.

I fully understand the value of buying a quality product and I have common =
sense and I buy crappy products all the time. Yes, I do like to complain ab=
out just how crappy something is at times and yes I get surprised sometimes=
, like this crappy saw and find out it was too crappy to do what I wanted b=
ut that doesn't mean I don't have common sense.

For instance Festools are undoubtedly far superior to most standard brands =
but I will never likely buy one because I value my cash flow over getting 1=
0 years vs 5 years of service for twice the price. I can get results that w=
ork for me from far less expensive devices now and in many cases I come out=
way ahead because I never use the tool enough to have justified the stupid=
high prices of some manufacturers.

Next speaker.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 09:42:17 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/26/2013 6:44 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
>>> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>>>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>>>
>>>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>>>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>>>> it.
>>> Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
>>> merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
>>> too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
>>> does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
>>> (or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
>>> seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
>>> like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
>>> left Canada)
>>> Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
>>> really concerned and wants samples to analyze.
>>>
>>> Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
>>> warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
>>> even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
>>> numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
>>> you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
>>> They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
>>> (to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
>>> month)
>>>
>>
>>
>> While I agree with both statements, and I kept my warranty parts in a
>> hot location next to our 8, 200 gallon compressors, this kept the
>> scrapping by the rep moving along and him not going anal on the
>> inspection, the big difference here is every one having to refund/credit
>> the complete price of the purchase. Warranty work is certainly as not
>> as big of a sting than the expense of shipping the product, getting paid
>> for the product, refunding the product and dealing with it from that
>> point.
>>
>> Typically on the goods that do not go back to the manufacturer, those
>> that the retailer eats, are purchased at a significantly lower cost to
>> begin with. The manufacturer does not have to pay for return shipping
>> and the credits, the retailer does not have to worry about getting
>> credit and shipping. The retailer expects to eat a percentage of those
>> type products. They certainly pay attention to the products that they
>> have to issue refunds on as this is more costly in multiple ways than
>> simply scraping merchandise that never sold.
>>
>>
> Not really. It only FEELS like it costs more to refund at retail than
> to scrap unsold merchandise. All it REALLY costs is what the retailer
> paid for it unless it is a commission sales outlet. OK, there is a
> small portion of the cost of paying the teller, who is paid if that
> item sold or not - but in REAL dollars - all it costs to refund a sale
> is the cost of the item - when compared to scrapping unsold
> merchandise it is the same.

You are missing out on other costs. You loose earned revenue. You have
the added expense of having to deal with the returned product. Your
employees could be doing something productive like selling vs refunding.
Basically you are paying a wage to reverse a sale. If the customer does
not return the product you keep the money from the sale, the transaction
and effort is final. If the customer returns crap product you loose
credibility and trust with the customer.

It would be far better from a business standpoint to never sell the product
than to do so and get it back.
That is business 101

In article <[email protected]>, Ed
Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>
> > I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
> > so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
> > your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>
> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
> saw? Doubt it goes past there.

Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
it.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to
read. - Groucho Marx

On 9/27/2013 4:20 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> From that statement I think you think you are way smarter than most people and I think you are wrong.

No, I think if I am smart enough to figure something out it should be
obtainable by most every one else. I have most often commented in years
past, If I can figure it out you should be able to figure it our. If
you can't figure it out, I may not be able to either.


>
> Most people are just as smart and aware as you, they just make different decisions than you would make.

No doubt.

Somehow you think your decisions are undoubtedly correct and theirs
are wrong; when in reality theirs are just different.

That is entirely possible.

>
> You can present all the logic you want for the correctness of your decisions but it doesn't make any case at all for why their different decision is not also correct, for them.


So are you saying that people that are not happy and or complain about
the decisions that they have made have in fact made the decision that is
correct for them???


> I fully understand the value of buying a quality product and I have common sense and I buy crappy products all the time. Yes, I do like to complain about just how crappy something is at times and yes I get surprised sometimes, like this crappy saw and find out it was too crappy to do what I wanted but that doesn't mean I don't have common sense.

O crap, seriously, O crap. I had forgotten all about the beginning of
this thread, you buying the inexpensive TS. I in no way was pointing my
above comments at you at all. In addition I completely understand the
logic of buying a throw away product. It certainly makes sense to not
take an expensive tool to a wok site especially if it is not warranted.
For that matter I buy crappy products too and for the same reason.
Again, my comment was not at all directed at you so please accept my
apologies if I in any way came across the wrong way. That was certainly
not my intent.
Now, I would still return the TS, I personally consider $200 a bit much
to write off, so to speak in my case.


> For instance Festools are undoubtedly far superior to most standard brands but I will never likely buy one because I value my cash flow over getting 10 years vs 5 years of service for twice the price. I can get results that work for me from far less expensive devices now and in many cases I come out way ahead because I never use the tool enough to have justified the stupid high prices of some manufacturers.

And as much as I like to talk about Festools, that brand was not even in
the scope of what I was thinking. I will say that I try to buy a brand
I have heard of vs. a no name brand.


Again, I absolutely was not trying to throw in an insult or belittle you
at all. My comments were more of a knee jerk reaction by the comment
that Claire made,

"
"Don't know why retailers insist on selling junk, and American
consumers continue to buy it up at a record pace."

And for the record I think a lot of the problems this society has is
directly connected with the time we as parents spend with our kids.
AAMOF my wife and I both worked when we had our first and only son.
Like those that continue to do the same, I saw no problem or
repercussions. Then one day I said enough is enough and quit my job and
retired. Our son was 7 at the time. I became a stay at home dad and
things were pretty tight for a few years. Our son ended up doing quite
well and perhaps that would have happened regardless if I had not
retired. Either way I know that our son benefited from one of us being
a stay at home parent. Unfortunately a lot of kids don't have that
option and lack the guidance that a loving parent offers over that of a
child care professional.

"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
> No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.
>
> I needed a cheap TS for onsite construction on a single personal project.
> At Lowes I bought the lowest end Skill for $199. I knew I wasn't buying
> the best quality but it was almost a disposable purchase in a sense. I
> just needed it for a few months.
>
> Honestly, disposable is generous. Yes I am used to a Saw Stop in my shop
> but this POS was nearly unusable from from the get go.
>
> First noticed an annoying "nuance" that is a design flaw in my opinion
> but I am sure it is considered a safety feature. If the fence lock is not
> fully engaged in then sticks up and out at the front rail and won't let
> you align a board to the fence. On construction builds when accurate cuts
> are "nominal" I often mark a piece for width on the leading edge, lay it
> next to the fence up near a non-spinning blade and bump the fence over
> until I get the width set that I want, then lock down the fence.
>
> Totally impossible with this fence lock.
>
> However, turned out not to be a problem when the fence lock handle
> snapped off about the third time (literally) I used it.
>
> I used a vice grip and clamp to lock down the fence after that.
>
> Then I started to rip a 2x4 which was a bit of a task for this little
> machine so I moved slowly. However, as soon as I let up on the feed
> through pressure the piece suddenly shifted away from the fence. I
> thought I had some stressed wood or really lost my technique or had a bad
> fence alignment. However, after I had the same issue while ripping a 1/4
> x 2 stop molding I figured out the "trunnion" is so weak and flimsy the
> the blade actually starts to flex toward the fence under the least amount
> of cutting stress. I tightened the slip collar at the back where it
> allows the mechanism to tilt for bevel and locked the blade bevel down as
> hard as possible and it can still felx at least a 1/4". It could flex a
> good 1/2" with factory settings.
>
> Pretty much unusable design unless you feed so slow or you aren't worried
> about a snaking rip line.
>
> I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and
> job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.

If people don't return this crap they will assume their customer is
satisfied. I'd returned it.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 06:07:57 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>>returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>>it.
>Right, But is will be just another tool on the pile and the customer
>experience will not get back to anyone that matters.

Doesn't that depend on how many get returned to the vendor? After a
certain return point, they have to do something ~ either fix something
in the manufacturing process, come out with a whole new edition of the
tool, or completely abandon that tool manufacture.

On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:

> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.

What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
saw? Doubt it goes past there.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 4:39:50 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:
> On 9/27/2013 4:20 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>=20
> > From that statement I think you think you are way smarter than most pe=
ople and I think you are wrong.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No, I think if I am smart enough to figure something out it should be=20
>=20
> obtainable by most every one else. I have most often commented in years=
=20
>=20
> past, If I can figure it out you should be able to figure it our. If=20
>=20
> you can't figure it out, I may not be able to either.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Most people are just as smart and aware as you, they just make differen=
t decisions than you would make.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No doubt.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Somehow you think your decisions are undoubtedly correct and theirs=20
>=20
> are wrong; when in reality theirs are just different.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> That is entirely possible.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
>=20
> > You can present all the logic you want for the correctness of your deci=
sions but it doesn't make any case at all for why their different decision =
is not also correct, for them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So are you saying that people that are not happy and or complain about=20
>=20
> the decisions that they have made have in fact made the decision that is=
=20
>=20
> correct for them???
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > I fully understand the value of buying a quality product and I have com=
mon sense and I buy crappy products all the time. Yes, I do like to complai=
n about just how crappy something is at times and yes I get surprised somet=
imes, like this crappy saw and find out it was too crappy to do what I want=
ed but that doesn't mean I don't have common sense.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> O crap, seriously, O crap. I had forgotten all about the beginning of=20
>=20
> this thread, you buying the inexpensive TS. I in no way was pointing my=
=20
>=20
> above comments at you at all. In addition I completely understand the=20
>=20
> logic of buying a throw away product. It certainly makes sense to not=20
>=20
> take an expensive tool to a wok site especially if it is not warranted.=
=20
>=20
> For that matter I buy crappy products too and for the same reason.=20
>=20
> Again, my comment was not at all directed at you so please accept my=20
>=20
> apologies if I in any way came across the wrong way. That was certainly=
=20
>=20
> not my intent.
>=20
> Now, I would still return the TS, I personally consider $200 a bit much=
=20
>=20
> to write off, so to speak in my case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > For instance Festools are undoubtedly far superior to most standard bra=
nds but I will never likely buy one because I value my cash flow over getti=
ng 10 years vs 5 years of service for twice the price. I can get results th=
at work for me from far less expensive devices now and in many cases I come=
out way ahead because I never use the tool enough to have justified the st=
upid high prices of some manufacturers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> And as much as I like to talk about Festools, that brand was not even in=
=20
>=20
> the scope of what I was thinking. I will say that I try to buy a brand=
=20
>=20
> I have heard of vs. a no name brand.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Again, I absolutely was not trying to throw in an insult or belittle you=
=20
>=20
> at all. My comments were more of a knee jerk reaction by the comment=20
>=20
> that Claire made,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "
>=20
> "Don't know why retailers insist on selling junk, and American
>=20
> consumers continue to buy it up at a record pace."
>=20
>=20
>=20
> And for the record I think a lot of the problems this society has is=20
>=20
> directly connected with the time we as parents spend with our kids.
>=20
> AAMOF my wife and I both worked when we had our first and only son.
>=20
> Like those that continue to do the same, I saw no problem or=20
>=20
> repercussions. Then one day I said enough is enough and quit my job and=
=20
>=20
> retired. Our son was 7 at the time. I became a stay at home dad and=20
>=20
> things were pretty tight for a few years. Our son ended up doing quite=
=20
>=20
> well and perhaps that would have happened regardless if I had not=20
>=20
> retired. Either way I know that our son benefited from one of us being=
=20
>=20
> a stay at home parent. Unfortunately a lot of kids don't have that=20
>=20
> option and lack the guidance that a loving parent offers over that of a=
=20
>=20
> child care professional.

I wasn't taking offense or thinking you had made any direct assault on me. =
You responses are all perfectly logical, reasonable and well formed. I was =
mostly bored and glad that this sparked so many interesting responses.

I think you are 100% correct that most of America's societal problems have =
to due with errors\omissions in child rearing. I too can speak to my person=
al association with success in that regard and familial failures that you c=
ould see coming for years in the making.

Finally, it seems many people here are trying to exhibit deep knowledge of =
statistical math as equating with their own intelligence, by example; but I=
only see it as evidence of education in a very easily understood science t=
hat bores the crap out of me.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 16:06:57 -0700 (PDT), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.
>
>I needed a cheap TS for onsite construction on a single personal project. At Lowes I bought the lowest end Skill for $199. I knew I wasn't buying the best quality but it was almost a disposable purchase in a sense. I just needed it for a few months.
>
>Honestly, disposable is generous. Yes I am used to a Saw Stop in my shop but this POS was nearly unusable from from the get go.
>
>First noticed an annoying "nuance" that is a design flaw in my opinion but I am sure it is considered a safety feature. If the fence lock is not fully engaged in then sticks up and out at the front rail and won't let you align a board to the fence. On construction builds when accurate cuts are "nominal" I often mark a piece for width on the leading edge, lay it next to the fence up near a non-spinning blade and bump the fence over until I get the width set that I want, then lock down the fence.
>
>Totally impossible with this fence lock.
>
>However, turned out not to be a problem when the fence lock handle snapped off about the third time (literally) I used it.
>
>I used a vice grip and clamp to lock down the fence after that.
>
>Then I started to rip a 2x4 which was a bit of a task for this little machine so I moved slowly. However, as soon as I let up on the feed through pressure the piece suddenly shifted away from the fence. I thought I had some stressed wood or really lost my technique or had a bad fence alignment. However, after I had the same issue while ripping a 1/4 x 2 stop molding I figured out the "trunnion" is so weak and flimsy the the blade actually starts to flex toward the fence under the least amount of cutting stress. I tightened the slip collar at the back where it allows the mechanism to tilt for bevel and locked the blade bevel down as hard as possible and it can still felx at least a 1/4". It could flex a good 1/2" with factory settings.
>
>Pretty much unusable design unless you feed so slow or you aren't worried about a snaking rip line.
>
>I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and job site dust, dirt and scratches to return

Find a "flooring contractor" at Lowe's and give it to him he can
finish it off.

On 9/27/2013 4:20 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

> Most people are just as smart and aware as you, they just make different decisions than you would make.


Sum Ting Wong ... you must not own a TV, or drive on a freeway in the
increasingly urban environments, eh?

By definition, 50% of the people fall on the left side of bell curve as
far as smarts, and 50% of those are way dumber than that ... IOW, why
Springer, Kardashian, Honey BB, et al, and reality TV are so highly popular.

You can't fix stupid, but you can sure cater to it. Just ask any
politician, or Chinese tool/dog food purveyor.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/26/2013 6:44 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>
>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>
>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>> it.
> Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
> merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
> too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
> does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
> (or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
> seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
> like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
> left Canada)
> Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
> really concerned and wants samples to analyze.
>
> Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
> warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
> even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
> numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
> you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
> They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
> (to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
> month)
>


While I agree with both statements, and I kept my warranty parts in a
hot location next to our 8, 200 gallon compressors, this kept the
scrapping by the rep moving along and him not going anal on the
inspection, the big difference here is every one having to refund/credit
the complete price of the purchase. Warranty work is certainly as not
as big of a sting than the expense of shipping the product, getting paid
for the product, refunding the product and dealing with it from that
point.

Typically on the goods that do not go back to the manufacturer, those
that the retailer eats, are purchased at a significantly lower cost to
begin with. The manufacturer does not have to pay for return shipping
and the credits, the retailer does not have to worry about getting
credit and shipping. The retailer expects to eat a percentage of those
type products. They certainly pay attention to the products that they
have to issue refunds on as this is more costly in multiple ways than
simply scraping merchandise that never sold.

On 9/25/2013 7:06 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.
>
> I needed a cheap TS for onsite construction on a single personal project. At Lowes I bought the lowest end Skill for $199. I knew I wasn't buying the best quality but it was almost a disposable purchase in a sense. I just needed it for a few months.
>
> Honestly, disposable is generous. Yes I am used to a Saw Stop in my shop but this POS was nearly unusable from from the get go.
>
> First noticed an annoying "nuance" that is a design flaw in my opinion but I am sure it is considered a safety feature. If the fence lock is not fully engaged in then sticks up and out at the front rail and won't let you align a board to the fence. On construction builds when accurate cuts are "nominal" I often mark a piece for width on the leading edge, lay it next to the fence up near a non-spinning blade and bump the fence over until I get the width set that I want, then lock down the fence.
>
> Totally impossible with this fence lock.
>
> However, turned out not to be a problem when the fence lock handle snapped off about the third time (literally) I used it.
>
> I used a vice grip and clamp to lock down the fence after that.
>
> Then I started to rip a 2x4 which was a bit of a task for this little machine so I moved slowly. However, as soon as I let up on the feed through pressure the piece suddenly shifted away from the fence. I thought I had some stressed wood or really lost my technique or had a bad fence alignment. However, after I had the same issue while ripping a 1/4 x 2 stop molding I figured out the "trunnion" is so weak and flimsy the the blade actually starts to flex toward the fence under the least amount of cutting stress. I tightened the slip collar at the back where it allows the mechanism to tilt for bevel and locked the blade bevel down as hard as possible and it can still felx at least a 1/4". It could flex a good 1/2" with factory settings.
>
> Pretty much unusable design unless you feed so slow or you aren't worried about a snaking rip line.
>
> I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.
>
Too bad you didn't check Craigs list.. I see dewalts all the time for
sale. Reasonable too, probably about he same price you paid.


Sounds like a dangerous tool. Right the bastards that make it...
(BOSCH) and let them know how well the POC works, and holds up.

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

--
Jeff

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 19:57:08 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

>> I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and
>> job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.
>
>If people don't return this crap they will assume their customer is
>satisfied. I'd returned it.

Leon's right, I'd return it too.

If you buy cheap you get cheap. But according to your description
this was way worse than cheap -- this was total junk.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>
>> > I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>> > so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>> > your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>
>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>
>Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>it.

Right, But is will be just another tool on the pile and the customer
experience will not get back to anyone that matters.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 09:42:17 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/26/2013 6:44 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
>> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>>
>>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>>
>>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>>> it.
>> Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
>> merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
>> too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
>> does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
>> (or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
>> seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
>> like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
>> left Canada)
>> Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
>> really concerned and wants samples to analyze.
>>
>> Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
>> warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
>> even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
>> numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
>> you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
>> They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
>> (to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
>> month)
>>
>
>
>While I agree with both statements, and I kept my warranty parts in a
>hot location next to our 8, 200 gallon compressors, this kept the
>scrapping by the rep moving along and him not going anal on the
>inspection, the big difference here is every one having to refund/credit
>the complete price of the purchase. Warranty work is certainly as not
>as big of a sting than the expense of shipping the product, getting paid
>for the product, refunding the product and dealing with it from that
>point.
>
>Typically on the goods that do not go back to the manufacturer, those
>that the retailer eats, are purchased at a significantly lower cost to
>begin with. The manufacturer does not have to pay for return shipping
>and the credits, the retailer does not have to worry about getting
>credit and shipping. The retailer expects to eat a percentage of those
>type products. They certainly pay attention to the products that they
>have to issue refunds on as this is more costly in multiple ways than
>simply scraping merchandise that never sold.
>
>
Not really. It only FEELS like it costs more to refund at retail than
to scrap unsold merchandise. All it REALLY costs is what the retailer
paid for it unless it is a commission sales outlet. OK, there is a
small portion of the cost of paying the teller, who is paid if that
item sold or not - but in REAL dollars - all it costs to refund a sale
is the cost of the item - when compared to scrapping unsold
merchandise it is the same.

On 9/25/2013 8:57 PM, Leon wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.
>>
>> I needed a cheap TS for onsite construction on a single personal project.
>> At Lowes I bought the lowest end Skill for $199. I knew I wasn't buying
>> the best quality but it was almost a disposable purchase in a sense. I
>> just needed it for a few months.
>>
>> Honestly, disposable is generous. Yes I am used to a Saw Stop in my shop
>> but this POS was nearly unusable from from the get go.
>>
>> First noticed an annoying "nuance" that is a design flaw in my opinion
>> but I am sure it is considered a safety feature. If the fence lock is not
>> fully engaged in then sticks up and out at the front rail and won't let
>> you align a board to the fence. On construction builds when accurate cuts
>> are "nominal" I often mark a piece for width on the leading edge, lay it
>> next to the fence up near a non-spinning blade and bump the fence over
>> until I get the width set that I want, then lock down the fence.
>>
>> Totally impossible with this fence lock.
>>
>> However, turned out not to be a problem when the fence lock handle
>> snapped off about the third time (literally) I used it.
>>
>> I used a vice grip and clamp to lock down the fence after that.
>>
>> Then I started to rip a 2x4 which was a bit of a task for this little
>> machine so I moved slowly. However, as soon as I let up on the feed
>> through pressure the piece suddenly shifted away from the fence. I
>> thought I had some stressed wood or really lost my technique or had a bad
>> fence alignment. However, after I had the same issue while ripping a 1/4
>> x 2 stop molding I figured out the "trunnion" is so weak and flimsy the
>> the blade actually starts to flex toward the fence under the least amount
>> of cutting stress. I tightened the slip collar at the back where it
>> allows the mechanism to tilt for bevel and locked the blade bevel down as
>> hard as possible and it can still felx at least a 1/4". It could flex a
>> good 1/2" with factory settings.
>>
>> Pretty much unusable design unless you feed so slow or you aren't worried
>> about a snaking rip line.
>>
>> I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and
>> job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.
>
> If people don't return this crap they will assume their customer is
> satisfied. I'd returned it.
>
I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.

On 9/25/2013 7:06 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.
...
> I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.
>


Thanks for the review. Nice to reaffirm money invested in a good saw is
not wasted. Sorry about your experience!

Bill

I use a 10" DeWalt...
It is a fairly good, lightweight, portable table saw.
I put the 8" Makita Table saw legs on it.
A sharp blade is most important.
Not thrashing it, is another good idea.
john

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

No good wood topics so I posted this minor rant.

I needed a cheap TS for onsite construction on a single personal project. At
Lowes I bought the lowest end Skill for $199. I knew I wasn't buying the
best quality but it was almost a disposable purchase in a sense. I just
needed it for a few months.

Honestly, disposable is generous. Yes I am used to a Saw Stop in my shop but
this POS was nearly unusable from from the get go.

First noticed an annoying "nuance" that is a design flaw in my opinion but I
am sure it is considered a safety feature. If the fence lock is not fully
engaged in then sticks up and out at the front rail and won't let you align
a board to the fence. On construction builds when accurate cuts are
"nominal" I often mark a piece for width on the leading edge, lay it next to
the fence up near a non-spinning blade and bump the fence over until I get
the width set that I want, then lock down the fence.

Totally impossible with this fence lock.

However, turned out not to be a problem when the fence lock handle snapped
off about the third time (literally) I used it.

I used a vice grip and clamp to lock down the fence after that.

Then I started to rip a 2x4 which was a bit of a task for this little
machine so I moved slowly. However, as soon as I let up on the feed through
pressure the piece suddenly shifted away from the fence. I thought I had
some stressed wood or really lost my technique or had a bad fence alignment.
However, after I had the same issue while ripping a 1/4 x 2 stop molding I
figured out the "trunnion" is so weak and flimsy the the blade actually
starts to flex toward the fence under the least amount of cutting stress. I
tightened the slip collar at the back where it allows the mechanism to tilt
for bevel and locked the blade bevel down as hard as possible and it can
still felx at least a 1/4". It could flex a good 1/2" with factory settings.

Pretty much unusable design unless you feed so slow or you aren't worried
about a snaking rip line.

I will toss this when the project is over. To trashed by paint spills and
job site dust, dirt and scratches to return.

On 9/27/2013 7:19 PM, Swingman wrote:
> Sum Ting Wong ... you must not own a TV, or drive on a freeway in the
> increasingly urban environments, eh?
>
> By definition, 50% of the people fall on the left side of bell curve as
> far as smarts, and 50% of those are way dumber than that ... IOW, why
> Springer, Kardashian, Honey BB, et al, and reality TV are so highly
> popular.


Or an other way of saying it is "50% of the people are less that average
intelligence."

That ones has gotten me in a lot of trouble. However whatever anyone
thinks it is absolutely true.

If they question it that shows what side of average they are on

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>
>> > I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>> > so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>> > your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>
>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>
>Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>it.
Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
(or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
left Canada)
Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
really concerned and wants samples to analyze.

Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
(to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
month)

On 9/26/2013 5:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>
>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>
>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>> it.
>
> Right, But is will be just another tool on the pile and the customer
> experience will not get back to anyone that matters.
>

Actually I think it will matter if you return it. As Dave mentioned the
store rarely eats the loss, it is credited back from the manufacturer.
If the store gets enough back they drop the product and the
manufacturer certainly sees that.

The return is not going to be a slap in the face to the manufacturer and
cause them to stop putting out crap but enough returns will tell them
what they need to do to prevent the returns in the first place.

On 9/27/2013 1:11 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:26:34 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 09:42:17 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/26/2013 6:44 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
>>>>> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>>>>>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>>>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>>>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>>>>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>>>>>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>>>>>> it.
>>>>> Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
>>>>> merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
>>>>> too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
>>>>> does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
>>>>> (or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
>>>>> seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
>>>>> like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
>>>>> left Canada)
>>>>> Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
>>>>> really concerned and wants samples to analyze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
>>>>> warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
>>>>> even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
>>>>> numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
>>>>> you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
>>>>> They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
>>>>> (to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
>>>>> month)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While I agree with both statements, and I kept my warranty parts in a
>>>> hot location next to our 8, 200 gallon compressors, this kept the
>>>> scrapping by the rep moving along and him not going anal on the
>>>> inspection, the big difference here is every one having to refund/credit
>>>> the complete price of the purchase. Warranty work is certainly as not
>>>> as big of a sting than the expense of shipping the product, getting paid
>>>> for the product, refunding the product and dealing with it from that
>>>> point.
>>>>
>>>> Typically on the goods that do not go back to the manufacturer, those
>>>> that the retailer eats, are purchased at a significantly lower cost to
>>>> begin with. The manufacturer does not have to pay for return shipping
>>>> and the credits, the retailer does not have to worry about getting
>>>> credit and shipping. The retailer expects to eat a percentage of those
>>>> type products. They certainly pay attention to the products that they
>>>> have to issue refunds on as this is more costly in multiple ways than
>>>> simply scraping merchandise that never sold.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not really. It only FEELS like it costs more to refund at retail than
>>> to scrap unsold merchandise. All it REALLY costs is what the retailer
>>> paid for it unless it is a commission sales outlet. OK, there is a
>>> small portion of the cost of paying the teller, who is paid if that
>>> item sold or not - but in REAL dollars - all it costs to refund a sale
>>> is the cost of the item - when compared to scrapping unsold
>>> merchandise it is the same.
>>
>> You are missing out on other costs. You loose earned revenue. You have
>> the added expense of having to deal with the returned product. Your
>> employees could be doing something productive like selling vs refunding.
>> Basically you are paying a wage to reverse a sale. If the customer does
>> not return the product you keep the money from the sale, the transaction
>> and effort is final. If the customer returns crap product you loose
>> credibility and trust with the customer.
>>
>> It would be far better from a business standpoint to never sell the product
>> than to do so and get it back.
>> That is business 101
> No arguement there - I just said in REAL dollars there is no
> difference in cost - and the cost involved in refunding the bad
> product could be saved 2 or 3 times over by never shelving the crap in
> the first place.


>
> Don't know why retailers insist on selling junk, and American
> consumers continue to buy it up at a record pace.

LOL, they insist on selling junk because the American consumer buys it.

Oh, and if you can figure out that formula for determining what to stock
and what not to stock let me know, ;~) Computers are great for
controlling an inventory but you cannot replace gut instinct on what to
stock. I have not yet seen a perfect inventory of goods where
everything sells.

Most U.S. Americans these days don't have the most common of
knowledge's, common sense. They don't realize and therefore can not
appreciate the value in buying a quality product. I attribute a lot of
this to kids being brought up in a household where both parents working
and letting others and the schools instil into their children what
little they have to share when herding 30~40 kids at a time.

I think our economy would slow down for a while if one parent would stay
home with the kids. The kids would certainly turn out smarter and more
productive. Unfortunately our kids have to learn life on their own so
to speak. It is a small wonder why gangs are thriving.


Next speaker! ;~)

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:26:34 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 09:42:17 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/26/2013 6:44 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:43:35 -0600, Dave Balderstone
>>>> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Ed
>>>>> Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>>>>>>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>>>>>>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
>>>>>> saw? Doubt it goes past there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dunno about Lowes, but where I work anything that is flawed and
>>>>> returned by a customer goes back to the vendor. The store doesn't eat
>>>>> it.
>>>> Depends what product, and the source. A LOT of even non-defective
>>>> merchandise goes through the "hammer" because it doesn't sell and is
>>>> too expensive to keep warehousing - and if it is a "store brand" it
>>>> does NOT go back to the manufacturer - particularly if it is Chinese
>>>> (or other foreign) sourced. You should see all the bycycles and other
>>>> seasonal goods that end up in the local scrapyard crusher from places
>>>> like Wallmart, Canadian Tire, or in the old days, KMart (before they
>>>> left Canada)
>>>> Defectives are documented and destroyed unless the manufacturer is
>>>> really concerned and wants samples to analyze.
>>>>
>>>> Same thing happened with faulty automotive parts replaced under
>>>> warranty. Half the time the "road man" for the manufacturer didn't
>>>> even want to see the defective parts unless the dealer's warranty
>>>> numbers were out of line - then they would do monthly "audits" - and
>>>> you better have ALL of the claimed parts available for inspection.
>>>> They were then destroyed/disposed of under the auditor's supervision.
>>>> (to be sure some crook didn't claim them on another vehicle next
>>>> month)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While I agree with both statements, and I kept my warranty parts in a
>>> hot location next to our 8, 200 gallon compressors, this kept the
>>> scrapping by the rep moving along and him not going anal on the
>>> inspection, the big difference here is every one having to refund/credit
>>> the complete price of the purchase. Warranty work is certainly as not
>>> as big of a sting than the expense of shipping the product, getting paid
>>> for the product, refunding the product and dealing with it from that
>>> point.
>>>
>>> Typically on the goods that do not go back to the manufacturer, those
>>> that the retailer eats, are purchased at a significantly lower cost to
>>> begin with. The manufacturer does not have to pay for return shipping
>>> and the credits, the retailer does not have to worry about getting
>>> credit and shipping. The retailer expects to eat a percentage of those
>>> type products. They certainly pay attention to the products that they
>>> have to issue refunds on as this is more costly in multiple ways than
>>> simply scraping merchandise that never sold.
>>>
>>>
>> Not really. It only FEELS like it costs more to refund at retail than
>> to scrap unsold merchandise. All it REALLY costs is what the retailer
>> paid for it unless it is a commission sales outlet. OK, there is a
>> small portion of the cost of paying the teller, who is paid if that
>> item sold or not - but in REAL dollars - all it costs to refund a sale
>> is the cost of the item - when compared to scrapping unsold
>> merchandise it is the same.
>
>You are missing out on other costs. You loose earned revenue. You have
>the added expense of having to deal with the returned product. Your
>employees could be doing something productive like selling vs refunding.
>Basically you are paying a wage to reverse a sale. If the customer does
>not return the product you keep the money from the sale, the transaction
>and effort is final. If the customer returns crap product you loose
>credibility and trust with the customer.
>
>It would be far better from a business standpoint to never sell the product
>than to do so and get it back.
>That is business 101
No arguement there - I just said in REAL dollars there is no
difference in cost - and the cost involved in refunding the bad
product could be saved 2 or 3 times over by never shelving the crap in
the first place.

Don't know why retailers insist on selling junk, and American
consumers continue to buy it up at a record pace.

On 9/25/2013 8:55 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/25/2013 9:15 PM, knuttle wrote:
>
>> I suspect it is still with in the warranty period I would take it back
>> so they will be aware of the poor quality. Even it they do not give
>> your money back you still have accomplished the purpose.
>
> What purpose? Letting some clerk at Lowes know you did not like the
> saw? Doubt it goes past there.


I suspect that with out getting your money back that the complaint will
fall on deaf ears.