Hello everyone,
I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo Schmidts'
technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building the face
frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself (36" x 24"
x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book "Building
Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the cabinet, the face
frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side." Also, when I look
at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23" x 34" x 3/4".
Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side? Doesn't that leave a 1/2"
gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just disregard the 1/4"
and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a purpose to this 1/4"
extension?
Thanks,
Patrick
Wow,
Thanks for the EXTREMELY fast responses. I see your point. Another words the
cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall studs and not to each other?
I guess everyon ehas their own technique in doing things. Guess I gotta keep
reading. :)
Thanks again,
Patrick
"Patrick Bitton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo
> Schmidts' technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building
> the face frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself
> (36" x 24" x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book
> "Building Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the
> cabinet, the face frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side."
> Also, when I look at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23"
> x 34" x 3/4". Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side? Doesn't
> that leave a 1/2" gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just
> disregard the 1/4" and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a
> purpose to this 1/4" extension?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick
>
I see your point. BUT, since I am ripping out the old cabinets, I can check
for plumb and level. And if it isn't to my liking...I will make them plumb
and level to make the cabinets fit perfectly. I personally think that making
a floor level and walls plumb is a much easier task then to butcher the
cabinets so they can fit.
Here is my reasoning.
Cabinets made of Cherry----$4000.00(approx)
Leveling a floor--------------$ 300.00
Plumbing walls-------------- $ 200.00
Making everything fit nicely---Priceless.
(I hate those commercials)
BTW, I'm a carpenter so it will not be a hard task for me to make my walls
square and my floor level. Basically the kitchen will probably have to be
gutted out. Besides, I want to make this a headache proof as possible. And
if that involves tearing down all the walls...so be it.
Thank you ever so much for the input. You people have helped me a great
deal.
Patrick
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:36:27 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Another words the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall
>>studs and not to each other?
>
> I think they are usually joined to each other through the face frames.
>
> The answer to the ¼" space (could even be larger) lies in the corner
> of a room. If you've ever taped drywall or seen it done, there is
> buildup in the corner. Possibly no more than 1/8" if the tapers are
> good, more like ¼" or more if I'm doing it. The corner will not be
> square and cabinets without the space you're describing will be a
> bitch to try and install. The fixes are aggravating, time consuming,
> messy, and potentially expensive.
>
> By the way, I'll give you three guesses how I learned all of this.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
Just guessing here, but I suspect that it's a little easier to line up & fit
the edge of a face frame than to line up & fit the entire side of a cabinet.
:)
"Patrick Bitton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo
> Schmidts' technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building
> the face frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself
> (36" x 24" x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book
> "Building Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the
> cabinet, the face frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side."
> Also, when I look at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23"
> x 34" x 3/4". Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side? Doesn't
> that leave a 1/2" gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just
> disregard the 1/4" and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a
> purpose to this 1/4" extension?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick
>
BJT wrote:
> Just guessing here, but I suspect that it's a little easier to line
> up & fit the edge of a face frame than to line up & fit the entire
> side of a cabinet. :)
Good guess :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Patrick Bitton wrote:
> I see your point. BUT, since I am ripping out the old cabinets, I can c=
heck=20
> for plumb and level. And if it isn't to my liking...I will make them pl=
umb=20
> and level to make the cabinets fit perfectly. I personally think that m=
aking=20
> a floor level and walls plumb is a much easier task then to butcher the=
=20
> cabinets so they can fit.
>=20
> Here is my reasoning.
>=20
> Cabinets made of Cherry----$4000.00(approx)
> Leveling a floor--------------$ 300.00
> Plumbing walls-------------- $ 200.00
>=20
> Making everything fit nicely---Priceless.
> (I hate those commercials)
>=20
> BTW, I'm a carpenter so it will not be a hard task for me to make my wa=
lls=20
> square and my floor level. Basically the kitchen will probably have to =
be=20
> gutted out. Besides, I want to make this a headache proof as possible. =
And=20
> if that involves tearing down all the walls...so be it.
>=20
> Thank you ever so much for the input. You people have helped me a great=
=20
> deal.
>=20
> Patrick
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:36:27 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Another words the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall
>>>studs and not to each other?
>>
>>I think they are usually joined to each other through the face frames.
>>
>>The answer to the =BC" space (could even be larger) lies in the corner
>>of a room. If you've ever taped drywall or seen it done, there is
>>buildup in the corner. Possibly no more than 1/8" if the tapers are
>>good, more like =BC" or more if I'm doing it. The corner will not be
>>square and cabinets without the space you're describing will be a
>>bitch to try and install. The fixes are aggravating, time consuming,
>>messy, and potentially expensive.
>>
>>By the way, I'll give you three guesses how I learned all of this.
>>
>>--=20
>>LRod
>>
>>Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>>
>>Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>>
>>http://www.woodbutcher.net=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
Your reasoning is flawless -- but you could be wrong. Execution is=20
another issue. Good luck.
Let us know how it works out. :-)
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
"Patrick Bitton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wow,
>
> Thanks for the EXTREMELY fast responses. I see your point. Another words
> the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall studs and not to each
> other? I guess everyon ehas their own technique in doing things. Guess I
> gotta keep reading. :)
>
> Thanks again,
>
No, The cabinets should also be mounted to each other so that they do not
pull apart when the house settles. Typically they are attached at the face
frame to insure that gaps do not for between them. The face frame overhand
is also handy for fitting the square cabinet into an unsquare corner where
two walls meet.
"Patrick Bitton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I see your point. BUT, since I am ripping out the old cabinets, I can check
>for plumb and level. And if it isn't to my liking...I will make them plumb
>and level to make the cabinets fit perfectly. I personally think that
>making a floor level and walls plumb is a much easier task then to butcher
>the cabinets so they can fit.
Saying and doing are two different things.
> Here is my reasoning.
>
> Cabinets made of Cherry----$4000.00(approx)
> Leveling a floor--------------$ 300.00
> Plumbing walls-------------- $ 200.00
In my workd, my time is much more valuable than materials. Build the
cabinets so that they fit into areas that are not square.
>
> Making everything fit nicely---Priceless.
> (I hate those commercials)
>
> BTW, I'm a carpenter so it will not be a hard task for me to make my walls
> square and my floor level. Basically the kitchen will probably have to be
> gutted out. Besides, I want to make this a headache proof as possible. And
> if that involves tearing down all the walls...so be it.
Being a carpender you should have no problem working around walls that are
not square or plum. Being a carpender you should already know that this
condition exists and you should know how to make square cabinets fit into
unsquare openings. Moldings, remember? Scribing overhang and a simple cut
on the overhang makes the overhand fit nicely to the nonplum wall.
"Patrick Bitton" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo
> Schmidts' technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when
> building the face frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the
> cabinet itself (36" x 24" x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page
> 44 of his book "Building Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each
> side of the cabinet, the face frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside
> face of the side." Also, when I look at the cut list he made(page 87),
> the floor panel is 23" x 34" x 3/4". Basically, why do you need the
> 1/4" on each side? Doesn't that leave a 1/2" gap when I butt up the
> cabinets together? Should I just disregard the 1/4" and make the floor
> panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a purpose to this 1/4" extension?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
The real world of putting kitchen cabinets together rarely matches the
accuracy of a well-tuned shop with good jigs. The space is a fudge
factor, to allow for shims, scribing, trimming, etc.
IF all your walls are straight, square and plumb, your floors dead flat
and level, and will stay that way, THEN you MIGHT not need the room.
None of those conditions exist in my world. And I don't always get the
measurements exactly right from the helper taking them down, either.
Good luck with your project. Take pictures to share. Plan to allow a
little longer to complete everything. Google "David Eisan" + kitchen as
to why. And he's got a little bit of experience.
Patriarch
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:16:42 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I see your point. BUT, since I am ripping out the old cabinets, I can check
>for plumb and level. And if it isn't to my liking...I will make them plumb
>and level to make the cabinets fit perfectly. I personally think that making
>a floor level and walls plumb is a much easier task then to butcher the
>cabinets so they can fit.
[snip mastercharge commercial]
>BTW, I'm a carpenter so it will not be a hard task for me to make my walls
>square and my floor level. Basically the kitchen will probably have to be
>gutted out. Besides, I want to make this a headache proof as possible. And
>if that involves tearing down all the walls...so be it.
I'm not talking about plumb walls and level floors. I'm talking about
the vertical corner which I already assume is plumb and square until
the drywall taper gets to it.
What I'm saying is that the plane of the wall, which is otherwise
straight for 98% of its length, even when meeting another wall, which
is also otherwise straight for 98% of its length, will have drywall
compound buildup from six to twelve inches of the corner which makes
it (the six to twelve inches of wall) stand proud of the surrounding
wall.
Take one of your 4' levels and using it as a straightedge put it
horizontally against the wall with the end approximately one foot away
from the corner of the intersecting wall. As good a carpenter as you
are, the straightedge should be laying flat on the drywall its whole
length. Now slide the straightedge into the corner until the end hits
the intersecting wall. There will be a gap between the wall and the
straightedge somewhere around 8" from the corner. Not your fault; it's
the drywall guy. Not his fault; its the nature of the drywall beast.
You shouldn't even be able to get your framing square into the corner
and have both legs hit the intersecting walls for the same reason.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Patrick Bitton wrote:
> Wow,
>
> Thanks for the EXTREMELY fast responses. I see your point. Another
> words the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall studs and
> not to each other?
No, the cabinets are also connected to each other through the face
frames (put the screws under the hinges), that's why the face frames are
wider than the cabinets...worlds easier to get face frames chock-a-block
than is is to get the entire cabinet sides the same way.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Patrick Bitton wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>=20
> I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo Schmi=
dts'=20
> technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building the face=
=20
> frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself (36" x=
24"=20
> x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book "Building=20
> Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the cabinet, the =
face=20
> frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side." Also, when I l=
ook=20
> at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23" x 34" x 3/4". =
> Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side?=20
Sounds like a "fiddle" allowance for hanging the cabinets. Could that be =
the case? I know when I design and build cabinets I always allow for=20
extra room to fit things during the installation phase..
Hopefully someone familiar with the methods you mentioned can enlighten=20
us all.
> Doesn't that leave a 1/2"=20
> gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just disregard the 1=
/4"=20
> and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a purpose to this 1/=
4"=20
> extension?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Patrick=20
>=20
>=20
--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw
"Patrick Bitton" wrote in message
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo
Schmidts'
> technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building the face
> frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself (36" x
24"
> x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book "Building
> Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the cabinet, the
face
> frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side." Also, when I look
> at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23" x 34" x 3/4".
> Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side? Doesn't that leave a
1/2"
> gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just disregard the 1/4"
> and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a purpose to this 1/4"
> extension?
Ditto _everything_ Leon said ... the 1/4" lip's main purpose is for
scribing to the unsquareness of three dimensional space in the real world.
It can also be used as a departure point for creative decoration on end
panels that show.
My suggestion, having built, and more germane, installed, more than a few
kitchen cabinets, is to incorporate it into your design as the author
suggests, you will be glad you did.
FWIW, a line of component FF kitchen cabinets are _always_ screwed to
adjoining cabinets through the face frame. Don't fail to do this, regardless
of any advice to the contrary.
Although you do not often need a spacer between cabinets when installing
wall cabinets, when installing two or more cabinets of the FF style in a
freestanding position, a la for an island, you can use a piece of scrap 1/2"
plywood as a spacer (1/4" lip + 1/4" lip) between the adjoining cabinets if
you find it necessary. This spacer will also give you a good spot to add a
fastener for better joining the two, or more, cabinets.
So, as you see, that 1/4" lip can come in quite handy in more than one
situation.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:36:27 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Another words the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall
>studs and not to each other?
I think they are usually joined to each other through the face frames.
The answer to the ¼" space (could even be larger) lies in the corner
of a room. If you've ever taped drywall or seen it done, there is
buildup in the corner. Possibly no more than 1/8" if the tapers are
good, more like ¼" or more if I'm doing it. The corner will not be
square and cabinets without the space you're describing will be a
bitch to try and install. The fixes are aggravating, time consuming,
messy, and potentially expensive.
By the way, I'll give you three guesses how I learned all of this.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net