at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
the old guys did all the work by skill alone
in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
of moisture needed before they tried the bend
well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
guys
the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
measure everything
thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
the chair backs they make are very nice
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:42:35 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:55:27 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 1/17/2018 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>>>> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>>>>> was the "right amount"?
>>>>
>>>> rhetorical i know
>>>>
>>>> but it is wood so they still have failures
>>>>
>>>> just a reminder
>>>> wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>>>> words incorrect expectations in its use
>>>
>>> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
>>> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
>>> it decided to relieve itself.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>sentences have no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in
>>other words incorrect expectations of a keyboard
>
>His keyboard was fine (though missing caps and shift keys). His
>sentence was fine, too. His meaning sucked. i.e. he was wrong.
>
>>pot....kettle
>
>OK.
It is Pebcak problem. Those are hard to fix.
On 1/17/2018 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>>> was the "right amount"?
>>
>> rhetorical i know
>>
>> but it is wood so they still have failures
>>
>> just a reminder
>> wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>> words incorrect expectations in its use
>
> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
> it decided to relieve itself.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
sentences have no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in
other words incorrect expectations of a keyboard
pot....kettle
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Tue, 16 Jan 2018
> 10:58:44 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
> >at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
> >
> >the old guys did all the work by skill alone
> >
> >in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
> >of moisture needed before they tried the bend
>
> "Good judgment comes from experience"
> "Experience comes from bad judgment."
>
> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what was
> the "right amount"?
>
> >well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
> >guys
> >
> >the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
> >measure everything
> >
> >thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
> >were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
>
> "If it looks stupid , but it works - it isn't stupid."
"It's only temporary - unless it works."
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:57:03 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 12:58:48 PM UTC-6, Electric Comet wrote:
> > at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
> >
> > the old guys did all the work by skill alone
> >
> > in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
> > of moisture needed before they tried the bend
> >
> > well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
> > guys
> >
> > the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
> > measure everything
> >
> > thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
> > were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
> >
> > the chair backs they make are very nice
>
> What's the moisture content of the wood before steam bending? What's your drying process after? Someday I'd like to make a captain's chair.
A brief description can be found here -
https://www.leevalley.com/us/html/05F1501ie.pdf
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>> was the "right amount"?
>
>rhetorical i know
>
>but it is wood so they still have failures
>
>just a reminder
>wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>words incorrect expectations in its use
Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
it decided to relieve itself.
>
>
>
>
>
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Wed, 17 Jan 2018
09:03:55 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>> was the "right amount"?
>
>rhetorical i know
>
>but it is wood so they still have failures
Well, yes. There is that while bit of the difference between the
apprentice, journeyman and the master. After a failure the apprentice
says "I thought it would work." The journeyman says "That doesn't
work." and the Master say "Oh yeah, that doesn't work."
>just a reminder
>wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>words incorrect expectations in its use
Yep.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Thu, 18 Jan 2018
09:10:02 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>so if the apprentice only relies on quantifying by measuring weight
>or moisture content or any other metric besides visual scan backed
>by deep learning then the apprentice will never obtain master status
>
>and the furniture company will get tired of too much scrap wood and
>then they will wonder why this one guy seems to have amazing success
>even though he did not even attend college but he knows wood
Yep.
"Schooling should not be mistaken for Education". Too often that
is thought of in terms of going to school or not. But it is equally
"obvious" that you can send two people through the same program, and
one will "get it" and the other won't. And by "get it" I don't mean
that they are "buzzword compliant" - to use a phrase - that is the
credentialed "schooled" person. By get it, they have integrated what
they learned in Class 101 with what they covered in 202, and life
experience, and, and, &c and usw. It is that "integration" which
leads to an "educated" individual - be it book learning or practical
skills.
I'm reminded of the Texas expression "He's read a book". Which
can be taken either way: he's read a book and _thinks_ he knows what
he's doing OR he not only knows the practical of the job, but has read
up on the theory. Be that cattle ranching, carpentry or cabinet
work.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in news:b36ccf58-9517-437f-8d6f-
[email protected]:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:36:53 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>> >pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>> >> was the "right amount"?
>> >
>> >rhetorical i know
>> >
>> >but it is wood so they still have failures
>> >
>> >just a reminder
>> >wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>> >words incorrect expectations in its use
>>
>> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
>> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
>> it decided to relieve itself.
>>
>
> Wait for it...
>
> EC is going to say:
>
> user should have accounted for stresses
>
> crack should have been prepared for
>
> wood was perfect user wasn't
I'm surprised that there are still some of you left that haven't killfiled him...
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:36:53 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
> >pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
> >> was the "right amount"?
> >
> >rhetorical i know
> >
> >but it is wood so they still have failures
> >
> >just a reminder
> >wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
> >words incorrect expectations in its use
>
> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
> it decided to relieve itself.
>
Wait for it...
EC is going to say:
user should have accounted for stresses
crack should have been prepared for
wood was perfect user wasn't
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 12:58:48 PM UTC-6, Electric Comet wrote:
> at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
>
> the old guys did all the work by skill alone
>
> in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
> of moisture needed before they tried the bend
>
> well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
> guys
>
> the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
> measure everything
>
> thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
> were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
>
> the chair backs they make are very nice
What's the moisture content of the wood before steam bending? What's your drying process after? Someday I'd like to make a captain's chair.
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 7:38:53 AM UTC-6, Jay Pique wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:57:03 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 12:58:48 PM UTC-6, Electric Comet wrote:
> > > at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
> > >
> > > the old guys did all the work by skill alone
> > >
> > > in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
> > > of moisture needed before they tried the bend
> > >
> > > well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
> > > guys
> > >
> > > the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
> > > measure everything
> > >
> > > thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
> > > were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
> > >
> > > the chair backs they make are very nice
> >
> > What's the moisture content of the wood before steam bending? What's your drying process after? Someday I'd like to make a captain's chair.
>
> A brief description can be found here -
> https://www.leevalley.com/us/html/05F1501ie.pdf
This is great information. Thanks!
Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Tue, 16 Jan 2018
10:58:44 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
>
>the old guys did all the work by skill alone
>
>in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
>of moisture needed before they tried the bend
"Good judgment comes from experience"
"Experience comes from bad judgment."
Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what was
the "right amount"?
>well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
>guys
>
>the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
>measure everything
>
>thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
>were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
"If it looks stupid , but it works - it isn't stupid."
>
>the chair backs they make are very nice
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:57:43 -0600, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:42:35 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:55:27 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/17/2018 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>>>>> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>>>>>> was the "right amount"?
>>>>>
>>>>> rhetorical i know
>>>>>
>>>>> but it is wood so they still have failures
>>>>>
>>>>> just a reminder
>>>>> wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>>>>> words incorrect expectations in its use
>>>>
>>>> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
>>>> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
>>>> it decided to relieve itself.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>sentences have no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in
>>>other words incorrect expectations of a keyboard
>>
>>His keyboard was fine (though missing caps and shift keys). His
>>sentence was fine, too. His meaning sucked. i.e. he was wrong.
>>
>>>pot....kettle
>>
>>OK.
>
>It is Pebcak problem. Those are hard to fix.
Though it doesn't fix the disease, the chronic symptoms can be fixed
with a <plonk>.
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:59:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Tue, 16 Jan 2018
>> 10:58:44 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>> >at a medium scale furniture maker that did a lot of bending
>> >
>> >the old guys did all the work by skill alone
>> >
>> >in other words they had no formulas they just knew the right amount
>> >of moisture needed before they tried the bend
>>
>> "Good judgment comes from experience"
>> "Experience comes from bad judgment."
>>
>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what was
>> the "right amount"?
>>
>> >well these old craftsman were about to retire and so they hired new
>> >guys
>> >
>> >the new guys had a hard time picking up that skill and decided to
>> >measure everything
>> >
>> >thought the old guys might balk but they encouraged the new guys and
>> >were actually glad because they could retire sooner than they thought
>>
>> "If it looks stupid , but it works - it isn't stupid."
>
>"It's only temporary - unless it works."
>
There is nothing so permanent as a temporary fix.
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
> was the "right amount"?
rhetorical i know
but it is wood so they still have failures
just a reminder
wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
words incorrect expectations in its use
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:56:59 -0800 (PST)
Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's the moisture content of the wood before steam bending? What's
> your drying process after? Someday I'd like to make a captain's chair.
it depends but as you might guess that is a trade secret
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:24:28 -0800
pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, yes. There is that while bit of the difference
> between the apprentice, journeyman and the master. After a failure
> the apprentice says "I thought it would work." The journeyman says
> "That doesn't work." and the Master say "Oh yeah, that doesn't work."
not that it matters if we agree because that is boring anyway
the master can still make mistakes because wood growth is pretty
random although not completely because it has constraints but the
master definitely becomes better at pattern recognition
that pattern recognition will be hard to quantify for this
apprentice i mentioned and really can only come from experience
so if the apprentice only relies on quantifying by measuring weight
or moisture content or any other metric besides visual scan backed
by deep learning then the apprentice will never obtain master status
and the furniture company will get tired of too much scrap wood and
then they will wonder why this one guy seems to have amazing success
even though he did not even attend college but he knows wood
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:42:19 -0800
pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm reminded of the Texas expression "He's read a book".
> Which can be taken either way: he's read a book and _thinks_ he knows
> what he's doing OR he not only knows the practical of the job, but
> has read up on the theory. Be that cattle ranching, carpentry or
> cabinet work.
depends which part of texas but mostly it is the first translation
there is an old one that might not be related but could be
beware the man of one book
most agree that reading is a good thing but have to also take the nose
out of the book and observe too
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:55:27 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 1/17/2018 7:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:03:55 -0800, Electric Comet
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:39:09 -0800
>>> pyotr filipivich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or in this case: how many boards did they wreck learning what
>>>> was the "right amount"?
>>>
>>> rhetorical i know
>>>
>>> but it is wood so they still have failures
>>>
>>> just a reminder
>>> wood has no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in other
>>> words incorrect expectations in its use
>>
>> Wood has no imperfections? I've certainly come across a crack or two.
>> I've also come across hidden internal stress, which caused havoc when
>> it decided to relieve itself.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>sentences have no imperfections but only misuse or miscalculations or in
>other words incorrect expectations of a keyboard
His keyboard was fine (though missing caps and shift keys). His
sentence was fine, too. His meaning sucked. i.e. he was wrong.
>pot....kettle
OK.