On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:54:08 -0800 (PST), "Gramp's shop"
>I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
Just so you understand that it's a *really big* step from this to a
Domino. I'd equate that step from a Skilsaw compared to a cabinet saw.
"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/1/2013 7:45 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>> Anybody have hands on with this one:
>> http://www.jessemdirect.com/Pocket_Mortise_Mill_p/08200.htm
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
>
> Just an observation. It has been out 3~5 years now and I have seen no
> comments about it since it was introduced. That may be saying something.
It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is small,
portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much smaller than a
dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less space.
It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small, one man
shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
It reminds me of the Beadlock, remember that?
http://www.beadlock.com/
"Lee Michaels" wrote"
> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is
> small, portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much
> smaller than a dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less
> space.
>
> It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small,
> one man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
--------------------------------
+1
Lew
"Lee Michaels" wrote"
>> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is
>> small, portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much
>> smaller than a dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less
>> space.
>>
>> It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a
>> small, one man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
> --------------------------------
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
> +1
---------------------------------------
Forgot to mention that it is a natural if you do picture frames.
Lew
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
> standard drill.
------------------------------------------------
I suspect the the drill bit they provide is ground to a non-standard
grind that promotes side cutting at low RPM.
Lew
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
> several places.
> I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
> worked equally well.
> I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
> router bit.
>
There are all kinds of router mortise jigs out there. The difference with
this product is that it is much cheaper. There are a whole spectrum of
mortise options available. From cheap to exorbitant and everything between.
You pays your money and takes your choices.
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:04:33 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
>> clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
>> "custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
>> addressing ONLY the time issue involved.
>
> So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?
>
> In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is
> money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever,
> making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade
> off.
So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
>> already "paid for."
>>
>> The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to
>> size.
>
> I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using cutoffs
> for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling sitting over in the
> corner to a new level. I might just run some of that stuff through the saw,
> then the router, and stuff the finished product into a coffee can for future
> use.
LMAO ... A coffee can, and coffee box, are just the thing:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-STFL2vwmteA/UQ2eoPjGB0I/AAAAAAAARJ4/gFZpoHFQs_0/s2048/13,%205:17:36%20PM
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
Swingman wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using
>> cutoffs for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling
>> sitting over in the corner to a new level. I might just run some of
>> that stuff through the saw, then the router, and stuff the finished
>> product into a coffee can for future use.
>
> LMAO ... A coffee can, and coffee box, are just the thing:
>
I was just thinking about this very thing recently. I was contemplating
using mortise and tenon joinery on a very small project - mostly because I
wanted to, not because I needed to. I nixed the idea based on one single
thought - I just did not want to dick around with cutting tenons in the
midst of the project. Lame excuse, I know - but that's the way it was. I
just didn't want to take the time to set up both the saw and the router to
monkey around, all for the sake of 2 tenons. I could have cut conventional
tenons on one of the pieces, and I almost did, but decided not to. Point
being - having a stock of tenons on hand would have made that an entirely
different decision. Since most of what I do is with standard 1x stock, a
stock of 1/4" tenon lengths would be handy to have at hand (so to speak).
Yank one out, cut it to length, and stick it in the hole with a little snot
on it, and the joint would have been done as fast as screwing it.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Gramp's shop" wrote:
>
> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and
> $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I
> kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
At $8.99/box of 50 tenons, reminds me of the razor blade pricing game.
Wonder what kind of a price they would offer for an order of 500 pcs?
Lew
"Bill" wrote:
> Speaking of that highway-robbery, I think these are a great value if
> you don't knock them against the sink (it knocks the blades slightly
> out of alignment):
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Personna-Cartridges-Lubricating-Gillette-Razors/dp/B002A6KFI4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2VMX7XEQ4VJA4&coliid=I6GM0AS56ELOB
---------------------------------------------------------
Ye gads, talk about the high priced spread.
Somebody was running a sale on triple blade throw away razors.
Made in India, distributed by an outfit in Hollywood, CA.
They do more than just make movies in Hollywood.<G>
Pack of 5 razors for a $1.00.
I bought a pack, they worked great.
Needless to say, went back and bought another $20.00 worth.
First throw away I've been able to get more than one shave
in a long time.
They also had a sale on EDGE shaving cream.
If it didn't work, wasn't out much.
Turned out to be another winner for me.
Lew
> Wonder what kind of a price they would offer for an order of 500
> pcs?
>
> Lew
-------------------------------------------------
"woodchucker" wrote:
> I don't think that .18 cents a piece is that bad.
> What about cutting your own, just thickness on the bandsaw or
> tablesaw, rip to width, route roundover then cut to length...
> certainly you can make a few hundred in an hour. If you do it right.
---------------------------------------------------
You could make your own or get some one else to make them for you
at your price.
Spent too many years negotiating deals to walk away from an
opportunity. <G>
Lew
On 2/1/2013 2:47 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
>> several places.
>> I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
>> worked equally well.
>> I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
>> router bit.
>>
> There are all kinds of router mortise jigs out there. The difference
> with this product is that it is much cheaper. There are a whole
> spectrum of mortise options available. From cheap to exorbitant and
> everything between. You pays your money and takes your choices.
If one has a vise and plunge router, I've used this one to make a few
chairs, complete with compound angles, and it cost about $10 in scraps
and a bit of shop time:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/ShopmadeMortiseJig
The photos should be in a logical order so that no words are needed, but
if someone needs a play-by-play and wants to try making one, just say
the word.
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Swingman" wrote in message >news:[email protected]...
>
>> On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted >> router with a
>>> roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap >> wood.
>
>> You bet.
>
>> For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness and
>> >width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if they
>>> need >to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
>
>> Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the
>> Delta >drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
>
> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>
> That said, I do things like that sometimes but most of the time I don't
> have the time... if I spent time on that I'd never get the real project done!
?
The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and making
custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least 30%, more If
compound angles are involved. Built way too many M&T tables and chairs,
both traditional and floating, to not have thoroughly experienced, and
documented, the benefit of those two alternate operations alone. And that's
not counting the resultant time savings due to an increase in ease of
fitting parts cut with a bit more inherent, and repeatable precision.
Although I don't own one, a Domino, while not as versatile, will save even
more time, easily making up for the cost of the tenons, either making or
buying.
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
On 2/2/2013 2:02 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.
>
> Larry
>
FWIW, hobbyist or not, being able to cut mortises and use tenons more
quickly affords you the advantage of building "better more quickly".
If you are anything like me you will find that if the tool is worth
while and not a PIA to use you will use it more in place of other other
tools. You will find more reasons to use the this type joinery. Building
furniture with mortise and tenon joinery is a by far better than using
pocket hole screws and or biscuits.
Basically if you are not satisfied by the Jesem jig don't let that leave
you with a bad taste for mortise and tenon joinery.
On 2/2/2013 2:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
>> shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
>> future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
>> tenons for four complete chairs.
>
>> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>> would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
>> Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>
>> ... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
>> an operation, and just talking about it. ;)
>
> I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
> even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on
> the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more
> realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover
> labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and
> equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance,
> insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I
> have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year
> whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks
> per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!
>
> That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
> the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
> (($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison,
> the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons,
> 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if
> you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than
> make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering
> would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a
> "standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial
> environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is
> requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store"
> or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not
> be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time
> available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on
> the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at
> about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.
>
> Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
> (money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost
> for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that
> time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to
> buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you
> are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the
> situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't
> spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the
> opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)
>
> John
I totally agree for professionals, but not for the hobbiest. Most of us
spend a lot of time not doing projects, but doing small work. Consider
this a small work task that can be done just as efficiently and for no
real cost other than the cost of wood, which I think many of us have
strips of wood that would make the teonons cheap to make and use up some
of the off cuts we have.
--
Jeff
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
> standard drill.
Same here -- which caused me to wonder if you can use a router instead of a drill...
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 2/1/2013 1:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
>>> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
>>> standard drill.
>>
>> Same here -- which caused me to wonder if you can use a router instead of a drill...
>>
> Again, my experience is limited, but I wouldn't feel safe trying to to
> aim a spinning bit at router speed into a small metal hole.
The demo video pretty clearly shows the drill is not started until after the bit is inserted into
the guide; I figured on doing the same with a router.
"Gramp's shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit
> and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my
> needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward
> the Domino.
Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted router with a
roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap wood.
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:43:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
>the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
>tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
>that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
>of experience in the operation.
I think you do have to agree though, that between the Domino 500 and
the new XL700, a large variety of tenon sizes are covered. I'd suggest
to you that you could take double the time to make your specialized
tenons and have even a better fit.
But, even you have a cut off time where you determine that it's not
worth further time and effort. The phrase "time is money" is not as
useless a rationale as your statement above would suggest.
On 2/2/2013 7:42 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:43:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
>> the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
>> tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
>> that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
>> of experience in the operation.
>
> I think you do have to agree though, that between the Domino 500 and
> the new XL700, a large variety of tenon sizes are covered. I'd suggest
> to you that you could take double the time to make your specialized
> tenons and have even a better fit.
Huh?
> But, even you have a cut off time where you determine that it's not
> worth further time and effort. The phrase "time is money" is not as
> useless a rationale as your statement above would suggest.
Dave, what are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't see how
your above can be remotely considered germane to my quote without a
large leap in imagination/supposition?
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> What about cutting your own, just thickness on the bandsaw or tablesaw,
> rip to width, route roundover then cut to length... certainly you can
> make a few hundred in an hour. If you do it right.
Oh, easily. Initial setup is the big time consumer there. Once you've got the right thickness on
the planer, and the correct height on the router, producing tenon stock at the rate of nearly a
foot a minute is no problem at all.
On 2/1/2013 4:10 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Gramp's shop" wrote:
>
>>
>> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and
>> $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I
>> kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At $8.99/box of 50 tenons, reminds me of the razor blade pricing game.
>
> Wonder what kind of a price they would offer for an order of 500 pcs?
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
I don't think that .18 cents a piece is that bad.
What about cutting your own, just thickness on the bandsaw or tablesaw,
rip to width, route roundover then cut to length... certainly you can
make a few hundred in an hour. If you do it right.
--
Jeff
On 2/1/2013 3:54 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> On Friday, February 1, 2013 2:47:07 PM UTC-6, Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
>>
>>> several places.
>>
>>> I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
>>
>>> worked equally well.
>>
>>> I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
>>
>>> router bit.
>>
>>>
>>
>> There are all kinds of router mortise jigs out there. The difference with
>>
>> this product is that it is much cheaper. There are a whole spectrum of
>>
>> mortise options available. From cheap to exorbitant and everything between.
>>
>> You pays your money and takes your choices.
>
> From the OP:
>
> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
>
> Larry
>
Well Larry,
after you play with it, we'll expect a full review. I'm not sure I need
it, I have a mortiser, I have a router, but it is worth hearing about.
--
Jeff
On Friday, February 1, 2013 2:59:17 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/1/13 2:54 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>
> > From the OP:
>
> >
>
> > I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and
>
> > $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I
>
> > kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
>
> >
>
> > Larry
>
> >
>
>
>
> Did you mean, "inexpensive?"
>
>
>
>Yah ... my bad
On Friday, February 1, 2013 2:47:07 PM UTC-6, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >
>
> > It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
>
> > several places.
>
> > I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
>
> > worked equally well.
>
> > I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
>
> > router bit.
>
> >
>
> There are all kinds of router mortise jigs out there. The difference with
>
> this product is that it is much cheaper. There are a whole spectrum of
>
> mortise options available. From cheap to exorbitant and everything between.
>
> You pays your money and takes your choices.
From the OP:
I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
Larry
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:04:33 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
>clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
>"custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
>addressing ONLY the time issue involved.
So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?
In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is
money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever,
making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade
off.
On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:25:33 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/2/2013 7:07 PM, Mike M wrote:
>
>> If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
>> cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
>> go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
>> don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.
>
>Yep, and as long as we're talking "ifs" ... don't forget "if" you could
>even find them to buy ... which you can't.
>
>Sorta the main (but one of a few others) reason for making them
>yourself, you reckon? ;)
8-) If the size needed isn't available you have to be loosing your
patients answering all our foolish comments.
Mike M
On 2/3/2013 5:51 PM, Mike M wrote:
> 8-) If the size needed isn't available you have to be loosing your
> patients answering all our foolish comments.
LOL The only "patience" around here are apparently running "lose" from a
mental ward. <g>
No, "CUSTOM SIZED" loose tenons are NOT _available_ for sale on this
planet .... but maybe not for long. :)
But, that may be what is driving them mad ... that such a simple concept
can obviously be so confusing, eh?
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/1/2013 9:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/1/2013 7:45 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>>> Anybody have hands on with this one:
>>> http://www.jessemdirect.com/Pocket_Mortise_Mill_p/08200.htm
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just an observation. It has been out 3~5 years now and I have seen no
>> comments about it since it was introduced. That may be saying something.
>
> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is small,
> portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much smaller than a
> dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less space.
>
> It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small, one
> man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
>
> It reminds me of the Beadlock, remember that?
>
> http://www.beadlock.com/
>
>
>
The possible problem I see with it is if you don't move the bit over
enough with initial drilling it might slide back into the previous hole.
If you move it so that it makes a complete hole then sliding the lever
back and forth to clean out the left behind waste might make the jig
slide out of position. If you tighten the clamp too much you mar the
surface of the wood.
I would want a money back guarantee.
On 2/1/13 7:45 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> Anybody have hands on with this one: http://www.jessemdirect.com/Pocket_Mortise_Mill_p/08200.htm
>
> Larry
>
That's a great price for that. Not only is it cheaper than the Beadlock
Pro, but it's easier to make your own tenons. I almost pulled the
trigger on one of these, but I already have a self-centering doweling
jig that is easier to use than this JessEm.
I think it would be a great way to decide if loose tenon joinery was the
"thing for you" and if you fall in love with it, you could bite the
bullet on the Domino.
I still might get one to check out.
Even if I don't like it, I could get at least 40 bucks back on ebay.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 08:17:38 -0600, Leon wrote:
> Just an observation. It has been out 3~5 years now and I have seen no
> comments about it since it was introduced. That may be saying
> something.
Woodcraft carried them when they first came out. They don't now. Must
not have been a good seller. IIRC, there was a larger version as well.
I did buy some of the loose tenons - seemed like a good buy at the time.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On 2/1/2013 12:50 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/1/2013 9:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 2/1/2013 7:45 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>>>> Anybody have hands on with this one:
>>>> http://www.jessemdirect.com/Pocket_Mortise_Mill_p/08200.htm
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just an observation. It has been out 3~5 years now and I have seen no
>>> comments about it since it was introduced. That may be saying
>>> something.
>>
>> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is small,
>> portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much smaller than a
>> dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less space.
>>
>> It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small, one
>> man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
>>
>> It reminds me of the Beadlock, remember that?
>>
>> http://www.beadlock.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> The possible problem I see with it is if you don't move the bit over
> enough with initial drilling it might slide back into the previous hole.
> If you move it so that it makes a complete hole then sliding the lever
> back and forth to clean out the left behind waste might make the jig
> slide out of position. If you tighten the clamp too much you mar the
> surface of the wood.
>
> I would want a money back guarantee.
>
>
>
I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
standard drill.
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
>> shop >hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
>> future >jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
>> tenons for >four complete chairs.
>
>> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>> would >it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
>> Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>
>> ... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
>> >operation, and just talking about it. ;)
>
> I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
> even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the
> very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically
> probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit,
> and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes,
> heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs
> of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose
> commercial shop costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or
> not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge
> $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!
>
> That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
> the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
> (($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the
> Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at
> $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two
> per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you
> take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if
> it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size
> would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining
> some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the
> opportunity costs of "running to the store" or "making upon need" into
> account so buying 600 for inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby
> shop environment, the discretionary time available to many, if not most
> of us would be more pleasantly spent on the primary project not on
> creating "standard" fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.<
No, you are missing the point.
Once again ... I do custom work, I have the capability to dimension the
tenon for maximum strength, I cut "custom sized" tenons, I have used that
term repeatedly since my original post in this thread, I can't buy "custom
sized" tenons at Rockler and refuse to use "standard, one size fits all to
the possible detriment of the integrity of the project joinery.
You took it upon yourself to reply to my post flatly stating that this
practice was a waste of time, and a "burning distraction", obviously
without any experience to back it up.
You are totally wrong in that statement, and in your assumption, for that
is what it is, an assumption, based on nothing but conjecture.
I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy "custom
sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time and money of
yours?
Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
conjecture.
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
On 2/2/2013 12:09 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>> would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
> Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to
> consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it
> out, there's always other things to consider too.
If you had really read the post, you would have noticed that "setup
time" was included.
> Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just
> leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as
> simple a comparison as it sounds.
I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
"custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
addressing ONLY the time issue involved.
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/2/2013 7:07 PM, Mike M wrote:
> If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
> cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
> go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
> don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.
Yep, and as long as we're talking "ifs" ... don't forget "if" you could
even find them to buy ... which you can't.
Sorta the main (but one of a few others) reason for making them
yourself, you reckon? ;)
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/2/2013 7:31 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message
>> I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy
>> "custom sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time
>> and money of yours?
>
>> Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
>> conjecture.
>
> I often wonder how threads on the rec spin out of control...
Easy ... do as you did: introduce pure conjecture into a discussion
based on hands on experience and then unilaterally decree it a waste of
time and a "burning distraction".
> else. That said, my experience and skills are adequate to have gleaned
> me a box full of woodworking awards from multiple shows and have kept me
> on the lecture/instructor schedule for the past decade or so. I've lost
> actual count of both... My experience as a management professor and
> project manager never let me stray far from cost/benefit analysis.
Despite all the horn tooting/name dropping, a simple question, asked of
you regarding a position that _you_ alone took upon _yourself_ to
interject into a conversation, remains totally ignored and unanswered.
Maybe this one is easier for you:
Just how many loose tenons does a "management professor" have to cut
before he takes it upon himself to unilaterally decree it a waste of
time and a "burning distraction"?
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/3/2013 11:49 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
> In my world we discuss and debate ideas and solve problems...
<snip of holier than thou BS>
And, you obviously do NOT answer civil questions, where an honest may be
embarrassing to your untenable position on an issue.
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
>"Swingman" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
In my world we discuss and debate ideas and solve problems... We spend some
time discussing events themselves and pretty much no time talking about
people. With the slide from ideas to personal attacks this thread itself has
become a "time burning distraction." It warrants no further attention as
you clearly missed my point right from the beginning and any expansion has
been deemed as evasive despite supporting comments by others. I'll chalk it
up to this being an anomaly and not your norm.
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>
>>> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>
>>> The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and
>>> making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least
> >> 30% ...
>>
>> Its the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn
>> time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to
>> rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively
>> tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or
>> 1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and
>> cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time
>> burning distraction.
>
>The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose
>tenons" notwithstanding:
>
>For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:
>
>I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick
>stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and
>that's being pokey.
>
>I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on
>the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.
>
>I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a
>rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup
>of the stop block on the sled.
>
>And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
>shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
>future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
>tenons for four complete chairs.
>
>That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
>Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>
>... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
>operation, and just talking about it. ;)
If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.
Mike M
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>You took it upon yourself to reply to my post flatly stating that this
>practice was a waste of time, and a "burning distraction", obviously
>without any experience to back it up.
>You are totally wrong in that statement, and in your assumption, for that
>is what it is, an assumption, based on nothing but conjecture.
>I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy "custom
>sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time and money of
>yours?
>Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
>conjecture.
I often wonder how threads on the rec spin out of control... There was
nothing in my posts that should have gotten you all hot and bothered. The
first one about "time" had an exclamation point no less! Thus there was no
need for personal attacks about experience, skill, or anything else. That
said, my experience and skills are adequate to have gleaned me a box full of
woodworking awards from multiple shows and have kept me on the
lecture/instructor schedule for the past decade or so. I've lost actual
count of both... My experience as a management professor and project manager
never let me stray far from cost/benefit analysis.
Being treasurer for the Northeastern Woodworkers Association's Mid-Hudson
Chapter for about 9-10 years has afforded me the opportunity to see a lot of
work, a lot of shops, and meet a lot of professional woodworkers (all kinds
from local to the internationally famous), writers and editors. TV
woodworkers too... Abram, Marks, Underhill--I originally met him while I was
working at Colonial Williamsburg, VA when he was the master housewright. As
such, I've got a pretty good idea how things work and fully appreciate that
there are often myriad ways in which a task could be completed. Thus I was
making an informed observation about time.
All that said, I generally use mortise and tenon and/or hand cut dovetails
in my solid wood work. For the one off furniture and cabinet work I do
there hasn't been a time where mortise and tenons were a problem. My solid
wood casework and drawers are typically done with hand cut dovetails with
some frame and panel pieces thrown in too. Splines, loose tenons, biscuits,
nails/screws and glue show up in some works depending on the fineness of the
work and the intended use.
I am reminded of a dinner discussion the Saturday evening of Woodworkers
Showcase 2008 with Doug Stowe, Peter Korn, Wayne Barton and others. Chris
Schwarz had made other plans for that evening that included drinking beer...
;~) During the discussion a comment was made by Peter that amateurs will
continue to do the best work as professionals do not have time to do so and
make a living. That theme permeates most of the discussions I have had with
professional woodworkers... they need to get the job done as quickly,
efficiently and workmanlike as possible in order to make a decent living.
There are only a few professionals whom I know who work in the
museum/gallery markets who command prices high enough to strive for
perfection in their work--I wouldn't call any of them rich. The "production
shops" (that do jobs like built ins and interior trim for hotels, banks,
churches, hospitals, etc.) seem to be more acutely aware of the time costs
than the others as 5-10 minutes per unit adds up to hours and even weeks of
shop time on big jobs. This time cost is less visible in one off work but
still impacts the income surplus at the end of the year.
John
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to
consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it
out, there's always other things to consider too.
Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just
leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as
simple a comparison as it sounds.
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
> standard drill.
I wondered the same thing at first, but given that it's just cutting out
small waste sections, I guess it's possible that it can work well enough.
It would be interesting to hear what folks who have used them say.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/1/2013 1:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
>> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
>> standard drill.
>
> Same here -- which caused me to wonder if you can use a router instead of a drill...
>
For what it's worth, I have the BeadLock Basic jig. I tried it exactly
once so far, about as quickly and carelessly as I could muster. Still,
it made a nice, tight, well-aligned joint that feels strong even without
glue. (This was a test. I would of course glue any real joint). I have
thoughts of a coffee table using that jig should I manage to finish my
current project with my sanity intact.
On 2/1/2013 1:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
>> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
>> standard drill.
>
> Same here -- which caused me to wonder if you can use a router instead of a drill...
>
Again, my experience is limited, but I wouldn't feel safe trying to to
aim a spinning bit at router speed into a small metal hole.
On 2/1/13 12:08 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 2/1/2013 12:50 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/1/2013 9:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 2/1/2013 7:45 AM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>>>>> Anybody have hands on with this one:
>>>>> http://www.jessemdirect.com/Pocket_Mortise_Mill_p/08200.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just an observation. It has been out 3~5 years now and I have seen no
>>>> comments about it since it was introduced. That may be saying
>>>> something.
>>>
>>> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is small,
>>> portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much smaller than a
>>> dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less space.
>>>
>>> It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small, one
>>> man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
>>>
>>> It reminds me of the Beadlock, remember that?
>>>
>>> http://www.beadlock.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> The possible problem I see with it is if you don't move the bit over
>> enough with initial drilling it might slide back into the previous hole.
>> If you move it so that it makes a complete hole then sliding the lever
>> back and forth to clean out the left behind waste might make the jig
>> slide out of position. If you tighten the clamp too much you mar the
>> surface of the wood.
>>
>> I would want a money back guarantee.
>>
>>
>>
> I have no experience, but my first thought was to wonder how well a
> side-cutting bit would work in tough wood at the RPM provided by a
> standard drill.
It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
several places.
I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
worked equally well.
I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
router bit.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/2/13 1:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>>> And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
>>> shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
>>> future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
>>> tenons for four complete chairs.
>>
>>> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>>> would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>>
>>> Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>>
>>> ... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
>>> an operation, and just talking about it. ;)
>>
>> I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
>> even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on
> The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to size.
> The time... all 30 minutes of it :-)... was probably "leftover" time
> from waiting for something to cure/dry or that magic period between work
> and a meal in which there's not enough time to start another
> step/procedure. We've certainly all had 30 minutes in "wife-time" that
> were spent looking for something to do while she takes "5 minutes"
> to put her face on before going out to dinner. :-)
You're right about project cutoffs being used when possible.
What is being discounted in this little 'Tete a Tete' is the fact that
correctly sizing mortise and tenon joints is dependent upon very specific
parameters, both regarding material dimensions, and the job of the
particular joint.
These traditional parameters are based on practices that have "stood the
test of time", and are ignored at your own peril.
While the original Domino is quite adequate for most tasks, the above is
the main reason why I did not rush to replace my Multi-Router with the
original Domino.
To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
of experience in the operation.
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
On 2/1/13 2:47 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> It's only to clean up the hole, after having drilled down all the way in
>> several places.
>> I've seen guys demonstrate it and they all had their own technique that
>> worked equally well.
>> I do wonder how it might be retrofitted with a trim router and good
>> router bit.
>>
> There are all kinds of router mortise jigs out there. The difference
> with this product is that it is much cheaper. There are a whole
> spectrum of mortise options available. From cheap to exorbitant and
> everything between. You pays your money and takes your choices.
>
Cheapest one I've seen it at Rocker for $160 and seems like a lot more
setup time involved.
After further thought, I don't think there would be a speed issue with a
drill and the JessEm. Not everyone's cordless drill are very fast...
mine is. And Like Lew said, that bit is probably a special design to
accelerate side cutting. Every demonstration I've seen shows the using
moving pretty fast through the entire cut.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/1/13 2:54 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
> From the OP:
>
> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and
> $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I
> kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
>
> Larry
>
Did you mean, "inexpensive?"
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Gramp's shop" wrote:
>
>> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit and
>> $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my needs. I
>> kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward the Domino.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At $8.99/box of 50 tenons, reminds me of the razor blade pricing game.
Speaking of that highway-robbery, I think these are a great value if you
don't knock them against the sink (it knocks the blades slightly out of
alignment):
http://www.amazon.com/Personna-Cartridges-Lubricating-Gillette-Razors/dp/B002A6KFI4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2VMX7XEQ4VJA4&coliid=I6GM0AS56ELOB
>
> Wonder what kind of a price they would offer for an order of 500 pcs?
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> Speaking of that highway-robbery, I think these are a great value if
>> you don't knock them against the sink (it knocks the blades slightly
>> out of alignment):
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Personna-Cartridges-Lubricating-Gillette-Razors/dp/B002A6KFI4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2VMX7XEQ4VJA4&coliid=I6GM0AS56ELOB
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Ye gads, talk about the high priced spread.
>
> Somebody was running a sale on triple blade throw away razors.
>
> Made in India, distributed by an outfit in Hollywood, CA.
>
> They do more than just make movies in Hollywood.<G>
>
> Pack of 5 razors for a $1.00.
This is pretty close. It's 5 packs of 10 for $16. About 30-cents a
piece.
I understand they are made by Gillette to sell in India to their customers
their who will not pay $3-4 per razor like some do here. Once in a while
I am disappointed with a blade, but I like the deal compared to what I find
available in retail these days.
>
> I bought a pack, they worked great.
>
> Needless to say, went back and bought another $20.00 worth.
>
> First throw away I've been able to get more than one shave
> in a long time.
>
> They also had a sale on EDGE shaving cream.
>
> If it didn't work, wasn't out much.
>
> Turned out to be another winner for me.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
On 2/1/13 9:04 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness
>> and width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if
>> they need to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
>
>> Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the
>> Delta drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
>
> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>
> That said, I do things like that sometimes but most of the time I don't
> have the time... if I spent time on that I'd never get the real project
> done!
>
> John
>
I can't see that whole process taking more than 30 minutes.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> It's the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would
> burn time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up
> machines to rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc.,
> to relatively tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if
> you make 100s or 1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time
> it would be OK, and cost effective, but in the middle of a job it
> strikes me as a time burning distraction.
I'd bet Karl does it in his down time, but even at that this seems to be one
of those "to each his own" things for me. Perhaps Karl finds it relaxing,
and just a way to spend some time in his shop that is not clock driven,
working on a "job". I know that things I do in my garage can take on that
feel. The same thing that I have to get done because someone is paying me
for it, does not have the same feel as doing it just because I want to, in
my spare time.
For me - this would be one of those that I'd consider worth the expense to
just buy them. For another - well, it may just be pure pleasure. I can't
see where Karl figures this saves him 30% shop time as he states, but maybe
that's because he frequently makes mortises that are odd sized and require
custom made tennons. Having them pre-cut and on hand would be a time
savings, but then I'd wonder if those custom sized mortises are really all
that necessary. Maybe standard sized stuff would work just as well. Don't
know - don't know exactly what he meant in his earlier statement.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/2/13 10:37 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>
>>> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>
>>> The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and
>>> making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least
> >> 30% ...
>>
>> Itâs the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn
>> time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to
>> rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively
>> tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or
>> 1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and
>> cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time
>> burning distraction.
>
> The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose
> tenons" notwithstanding:
>
> For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:
>
> I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick
> stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and
> that's being pokey.
>
> I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on
> the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.
>
> I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a
> rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup
> of the stop block on the sled.
>
> And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
> shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
> future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
> tenons for four complete chairs.
>
> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
> would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
> Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>
> ... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
> operation, and just talking about it. ;)
>
Wow, I guess my estimation was spot on. :-)
Now, figure out how long it would've taken to get on the computer, find
the best price, place the order and get back out to the shop to work.
Even if you could do it on the iPad in 15 minutes... now, you're waiting
for UPS.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/2/13 10:39 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/1/2013 11:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I can't see that whole process taking more than 30 minutes.
>
> See previous post re making custom tenons ... you hit the nail on the head.
>
There ya go... I already replied to your previous post, before reading
this one.
Dare I say, "great minds?" :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/2/13 1:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
>> shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
>> future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
>> tenons for four complete chairs.
>
>> That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
>> would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>
>> Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>
>> ... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
>> an operation, and just talking about it. ;)
>
> I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
> even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on
> the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more
> realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover
> labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and
> equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance,
> insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I
> have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year
> whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks
> per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!
>
> That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
> the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
> (($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison,
> the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons,
> 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if
> you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than
> make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering
> would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a
> "standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial
> environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is
> requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store"
> or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not
> be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time
> available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on
> the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at
> about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.
>
> Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
> (money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost
> for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that
> time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to
> buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you
> are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the
> situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't
> spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the
> opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)
>
> John
I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
already "paid for."
The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to size.
The time... all 30 minutes of it :-)... was probably "leftover" time
from waiting for something to cure/dry or that magic period between work
and a meal in which there's not enough time to start another
step/procedure. We've certainly all had 30 minutes in "wife-time" that
were spent looking for something to do while she takes "5 minutes"
to put her face on before going out to dinner. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
> already "paid for."
>
> The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to
> size.
I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using cutoffs
for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling sitting over in the
corner to a new level. I might just run some of that stuff through the saw,
then the router, and stuff the finished product into a coffee can for future
use.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 2/2/13 3:50 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/2/2013 2:02 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
>> Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I
>> use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once
>> I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
>
> FWIW, hobbyist or not, being able to cut mortises and use tenons more
> quickly affords you the advantage of building "better more quickly". If
> you are anything like me you will find that if the tool is worth while
> and not a PIA to use you will use it more in place of other other tools.
> You will find more reasons to use the this type joinery. Building
> furniture with mortise and tenon joinery is a by far better than using
> pocket hole screws and or biscuits.
>
> Basically if you are not satisfied by the Jesem jig don't let that leave
> you with a bad taste for mortise and tenon joinery.
I optimistically think the opposite would happen.
As with pocket holes, even an awkward, simple jig that requires extra
steps and time in order to make lots of joints allows you to fall in
love with the use of pocket holes. I've never upgraded by simple little
jig, but I use a ton of those joints. I think whenever i do upgrade to
one with integrated tables, clamps, dust vac exhaust, etc., it'll be a
wonderful luxury, but I'm not going to stop using pocket holes any time
soon, simple because my little Kreg can be awkward.
I'm in the same position with my current doweling jig that is pretty
awkward and slow to use. I've developed steps and processes to make
things go more quickly, but I still see the advantage of dowels and can
easily see how loose tenon joinery (especially the Domino) will be a
great improvement. I look forward to owning and using a Domino, but I'm
still going to make lots of joints using dowels (round loose tenons).
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 2/1/2013 11:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I can't see that whole process taking more than 30 minutes.
See previous post re making custom tenons ... you hit the nail on the head.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote in message
>> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>> The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and
>> making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least
>> 30% ...
>
> Itâs the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn
> time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to
> rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively
> tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or
> 1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and
> cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time
> burning distraction.
The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose
tenons" notwithstanding:
For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:
I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick
stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and
that's being pokey.
I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on
the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.
I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a
rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup
of the stop block on the sled.
And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.
That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
operation, and just talking about it. ;)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Swingman" wrote in message
>>> >news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>>
>?
>The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and making
>custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least 30%, more If
Itâs the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn time
that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to rip,
joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively tight
consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or 1,000s of
them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and cost
effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time burning
distraction.
>"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>"Lee Michaels" wrote"
>> It probably is not marketed that well. It is intriguing. It is small,
>> portable and costs much less than a Domino. And is much smaller than a
>> dedicated mortise machine. And takes up much less space.
>>
> >It is not a production tool or anything like that. But for a small, one
> >man shop, hobby woodworker. it would work just fine.
--------------------------------
>+1
>
>Lew
One thing that I noticed on the site was that tenons could be added to cope
and stick joints... that may be useful in cases where a stronger joint is
needed. This jig would offer a reasonable means to meet that need.
John
"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of shop
>hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on future
>jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose tenons for
>four complete chairs.
>That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long would
>it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
>Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
>... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
>operation, and just talking about it. ;)
I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes even
more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the very
low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically probably
more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit, and the fixed
and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes, heat/cooling,
electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs of inventory,
depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose commercial shop
costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours
per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover
the fixed costs!
That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts the
cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each (($100/2)/80)
plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the Rockler site
lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12
shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two per joint and
charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you take the cost of
the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if it makes sense to use
a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size would do the job for
lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining some inventory of
fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the opportunity costs of
"running to the store" or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for
inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the
discretionary time available to many, if not most of us would be more
pleasantly spent on the primary project not on creating "standard"
fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.
Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
(money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost for
making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that time in
any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to buy them
rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you are taking
money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the situation through a
different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't spent time making things
that could be bought cheaper when all the opportunity costs are taken into
account. ;~)
John
>"Swingman" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> "Gramp's shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit
>>> and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my
>>> needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward
>>> the Domino.
>>
>> Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted
>> router with a
>> roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap
>> wood.
>You bet.
>For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness and
>width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if they need
>to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
>Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the Delta
>drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
That said, I do things like that sometimes but most of the time I don't have
the time... if I spent time on that I'd never get the real project done!
John
On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:20:03 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Dave, what are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't see how
>your above can be remotely considered germane to my quote without a
>large leap in imagination/supposition?
That response was before I found out you were talking about odd sized
tenons. When I replied I thought you were making loose tenons
comparably sized to regular Domino tenons.
There has to be a cut off point where it's cheaper time wise to buy
the tenons instead of making them. After all, you do have other things
to do besides just making loose tenons.
All of this is a moot point anyway. If you need some Domino sized
tenons, you can invite your buddy over for dinner and ask him to bring
some tenons with him. :)
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Swingman" wrote in message >news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>>> Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted >> router with a
>>>> roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap >> wood.
>>
>>> You bet.
>>
>>> For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness and
>>>> width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if they
>>>> need >to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
>>
>>> Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the
>>> Delta >drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
>>
>> I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
>>
>> That said, I do things like that sometimes but most of the time I don't
>> have the time... if I spent time on that I'd never get the real project done!
>
> ?
>
> The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and making
> custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least 30%, more If
> compound angles are involved. Built way too many M&T tables and chairs,
> both traditional and floating, to not have thoroughly experienced, and
> documented, the benefit of those two alternate operations alone. And that's
> not counting the resultant time savings due to an increase in ease of
> fitting parts cut with a bit more inherent, and repeatable precision.
>
> Although I don't own one, a Domino, while not as versatile, will save even
> more time, easily making up for the cost of the tenons, either making or
> buying.
FWIW the most common sized tenon that I use is the 5mm one, especially for
the more complicated joints that I make. They are about a penny more
expensive than a biscuit when purchased by the case. The 6 mm tenon being
approximately 1/3 the thickness of 3/4" stock is marginally more expensive.
I can't imagine making 1,800, 5mm tenons to save $80. I have used about
2,800 of the 5mm tenons alone, that's 5,600 mortises. Can you imagine
making that many mortises with the Jesem jig?
The larger Domino unit however uses much larger and much longer tenons.
Making your own would probably be worthwhile.
On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> "Gramp's shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I've decided to try it and for less than $100 ($69 for the unit
>> and $10 for 50 tenons) it either is or isn't going to meet my
>> needs. I kinda look at this as an expensive first step toward
>> the Domino.
>
> Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted router with a
> roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap wood.
You bet.
For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness and
width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if they
need to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the
Delta drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:51:17 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?
Mea Culpa. Obviously, I missed that fact.