Finish Questions

On Jan 10, 12:01=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Jan 10, 6:28=A0am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Benzene is the bad guy.
> > Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is benzin=
e. =A0
> > For benzine think lighter fluid.
>
> Thanks, Han. =A0I know what benzine is and have used it as a cleaning
> agent on site.
>
> Anyone that has lived in the USA knows what benzine is if they have
> had anything dry cleaned. =A0Benzine, mixed with other stuff was the
> cleaner of choice for about 40 years for garments that required "dry"
> cleaning.
>
> I remember in the early 60s, my Mom would get my Dad's suits from the
> cleaners and hang them out in the garage with the bag off to let the
> benzine smell evaporate before he wore them.
>
> Robert

Benzine should not be confused with benzene or benzyne. So there! I
can Wiki with the best of them! <G>
Seeing as I like to pick nits, drycleaning fluid is something else
entirely.
and I Wiki:
Michael Faraday first synthesized tetrachloroethene in 1821 by thermal
decomposition of hexachloroethane.
Whodathunkit, eh? Of all people? You thought you knew Faraday... but
noooooooo. (I guess some people confused him with Queen Faraday,
or ..nebber mind, I done enough damage... King Faraday? Anybody wants
to be King Faraday?)(To be left alone faraday?)
"You'e got to let that stuff dry faraday...THEN recoat."

Okay, outta here... back to work.

On Jan 9, 6:04=A0pm, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:

> Just as I suspected. No benzine in a Sharpie.
> Below is the MSDS. Nice misinformation.

Well, nice catch. I hope you didn't miss any sleep. It appears I was
thinking of xylene, or even toluene. Apparently, there never was any
benzine in the markers. Whoops! But hey, what's a few V.O.C.s
between friends?

Apparently only a few models even have xylene in them anymore. When
you Googled, I am sure you found that the makers of Sharpies are quite
proud that most of their products no longer have the really V.O.C.
components. Personally, I wasn't aware of big change over to the new
carriers.

Now if we are just sure it wasn't an older Sharpie, or a marker from
another maker (like a Xerox is used for a copy, or a Coke is used for
any kind of fizzy drink), we would be spot on, no?

Still, good to be up to date. Thanks for the info.

Robert

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:27:50 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jan 10, 12:01 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Jan 10, 6:28 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Benzene is the bad guy.
>> > Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is benzine.  
>> > For benzine think lighter fluid.
>>
>> Thanks, Han.  I know what benzine is and have used it as a cleaning
>> agent on site.
>>
>> Anyone that has lived in the USA knows what benzine is if they have
>> had anything dry cleaned.  Benzine, mixed with other stuff was the
>> cleaner of choice for about 40 years for garments that required "dry"
>> cleaning.
>>
>> I remember in the early 60s, my Mom would get my Dad's suits from the
>> cleaners and hang them out in the garage with the bag off to let the
>> benzine smell evaporate before he wore them.
>>
>> Robert
>
>Benzine should not be confused with benzene or benzyne. So there! I
>can Wiki with the best of them! <G>
>Seeing as I like to pick nits, drycleaning fluid is something else
>entirely.

Dry cleaning fluid is Perchlorethane, commonly known as "Perc".

Benzene is really nasty stuff and should never be used as a cleaner. AFAIK,
it's not legal to use for anything other than making gasoline.

<snip>

On Jan 10, 1:26=A0pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:27:50 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]=
m>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 10, 12:01 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Jan 10, 6:28 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > Benzene is the bad guy.
> >> > Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is ben=
zine.
> >> > For benzine think lighter fluid.
>
> >> Thanks, Han. I know what benzine is and have used it as a cleaning
> >> agent on site.
>
> >> Anyone that has lived in the USA knows what benzine is if they have
> >> had anything dry cleaned. Benzine, mixed with other stuff was the
> >> cleaner of choice for about 40 years for garments that required "dry"
> >> cleaning.
>
> >> I remember in the early 60s, my Mom would get my Dad's suits from the
> >> cleaners and hang them out in the garage with the bag off to let the
> >> benzine smell evaporate before he wore them.
>
> >> Robert
>
> >Benzine should not be confused with benzene or benzyne. So there! I
> >can Wiki with the best of them! <G>
> >Seeing as I like to pick nits, drycleaning fluid is something else
> >entirely.
>
> Dry cleaning fluid is Perchlorethane, commonly known as "Perc".

Okay... you tell me what the difference is between perc and
tetrachloroethene.

C2Cl4 and C2Cl4 is different how?

On Jan 10, 11:04=A0am, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:
> Just as I suspected. No benzine in a Sharpie.
> Below is the MSDS. Nice misinformation.
> Section Three: Composition
> Dyes
> Pigments
> Solvent Mixture: Butanol (71-36-3), Propanol (71-23-8), Diacetone
> Alcohol (123-42-2), Ethanol (64-17-5)

Ah well, you know: it's the Internet, so it must be true...

Mind you: acetone will go through just about any finish, so if
diacetone is anything like it...

On Jan 9, 9:52 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Uh, Naishooter, read what he wrote more carefully. He said that two
> products were used, "Varahane gun stock stain", which is not a gun
> product but one of the colors of the Varathane Premium line that Home
> Depot and the like sell. And that it was topped with "Hope's 100
> percent tung oil", the MSDS for which says "Raw tung oil is not a
> hazardous material . . ."
>
> So it was finished with raw tung oil on top of a commonplace consumer
> stain.

You are of course, correct. I had never heard of Hope's tung oil, and
thought that he was referring the old Hoppe's gun care kits.
Certainly an error on my part. I should not have assumed but with all
the spelling errors around here all the time (mine included) I
assumed....

> Uh, Naishooter, read what he wrote more carefully. He said that two
> products were used, "Varahane gun

I am Nailshooter, and it is Varathane, no? Still, my mistake.

As far as the alcohol/water/tung oil/stain problem, there could be a
semantics definition problem. I will certainly take it on myself.

If a finish is removed by a solvent, then to me it is removed as in a
stripper, REMOVED. Bare wood indicates "removed". If a weaker
solvent or limited exposure from a solvent to an area affects the
finish of a piece, I think of it in finishing/refinishing terms. That
would be called a damage.

> And it would not surprise me at all if isopropyl alchohol dissolved it.

I wouldn't be surprised at anything that dissolved or damaged tung
oil. To me, there isn't a bigger waste of time than tung except when
using it as a toner.

Would household alcohol dissolve it more aggressively than plain
water? I don't think so, but I see you have performed your own
experiment in a later post. Will it remove finish? Sure it will when
used with a scrub brush, scouring pad or even a soft putty knife.

But so will water. Take a piece of wood with XX coats of tung oil on
it, then put water on long enough for the white ring to appear. Your
finish will be damaged, and on its way to ruin. Although water won't
work as a thinner for tung oil, tung sure dissolves well underneath
it.

> > Now the good news of course, is that it should be easy enough to strip
> > off that cheesy, thin, oil finish and put on a real finish. ;^)
> > (Just thinking of an earlier thread....)

> Now as to whether it should have > "removed" the finishes, I'd really > need to see the piece I think.

I know you are an avid reader of this group, so I was hoping you
remembered an earlier post when DS was asking about changing the color/
finish on a piece. I was relying to get a bit more mileage from the
winky face than I apparently did, even when referencing an earlier
thread.

> Now as to whether it should have > "removed" the finishes, I'd really > need to see the piece I think.

Semantics again? Beats me. Not seeing the piece, I don't know if the
finish was removed, or simply damaged.

Robert

In article <d0df19bb-07bf-4670-b754-06921ea3f0f4
@u3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> Wow... lots of questions.
>
> First, yes a Sharpie will EASILY penetrate an oil finish. No
> problem. One of the carriers in the Sharpie ink that allows great
> penetration on almost any surface is benzine. Oil finishes are no
> match, nor are many others. Sharpies will ruin just about any finish
> you can imagine.
>
> Second household alcohol shouldn't do anything that water wouldn't do
> to your oil finishes. Those "tung oil" and other types of finishes
> sold for gun stocks are hybrid oil finishes in the varnish family,
> made to pad onto a surface, one little skinny coat at a time. They
> are made for the home guy (that doesn't mean a poor end product) that
> wants an easy to apply. fool proof finish that doesn't take much skill
> to apply.

Uh, Naishooter, read what he wrote more carefully. He said that two
products were used, "Varahane gun stock stain", which is not a gun
product but one of the colors of the Varathane Premium line that Home
Depot and the like sell. And that it was topped with "Hope's 100
percent tung oil", the MSDS for which says "Raw tung oil is not a
hazardous material . . ."

So it was finished with raw tung oil on top of a commonplace consumer
stain.

> > Household alcohol was used to try to remove the Sharpie ink
> > and the ink, oil finish and oil stain was came off, when the alcohol
> > "cleanser" was used. I find it hard to believe the alcohol would
> > affect (remove) the oil finishes, this way, hence, my testing.
>
> Remember that household alcohol is usually 50% (rarely 70%) water.
> Just plain old water, nothing special. So household alcohol could
> raise a water stain on your oil finish, but it shouldn't remove it. I
> would think most likely your finish came off due to some industrious
> scrubbing needed to get the deep penetration of the Sharpie ink off.
>
> You should also know that tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
> conditioned walnut oil, and on an on..... provide protection against
> dust. That's about it. It has no abrasion resistance, no resistance
> to cleaning agents, isn't water resistant, and it yellows badly over
> time. Good stuff, no?

And it would not surprise me at all if isopropyl alchohol dissolved it.

In fact now I'm curious. I've got some Varathane stain and some pure
tung oil, think I'll make up a sample on a scrap, let it sit for a year
or so, and see what happens.

> Using it to finish a table top is nuts. It sounds to me that someone
> couldn't even manage an easy finish, so they chickened out and just
> rubbed oil on it. As far as the oil bubbling up, there is obviously
> something bad going on there. If you are bubbling up the old finish,
> the new finish you are putting on the now is to hot, has too many
> VOCs, however you want to say it. If the new finish is bubbling up,
> you probably have contaminates on the surface such as dusting spray or
> spray polish. Good luck getting that off. Lacquer thinner will do
> it, but it will destroy that oil cured stuff on the table.

If raw tung oil is bubbliing up there's something weird going on. It
should either soak in or just lie there until you wipe it off.

> Now the good news of course, is that it should be easy enough to strip
> off that cheesy, thin, oil finish and put on a real finish. ;^)
> (Just thinking of an earlier thread....)
>
> Robert

In article <d84f9d46-1319-4bac-97cb-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> I am at a loss for an explanation and possibly a remedy. Several
> issues are in question and some info is unknown.
>
> For some immediate answers, I plan to do some test applications to
> find out if household alcohol (isopropal alcohol) will penetrate and/
> or remove cured tung oil, specifically Hope's 100% tung oil. Also, I
> want to find out if household alcohol will remove Varathane gun stock
> oil stain, once it has cured.
>
> Do any of you have any experience or idea if household alcohol will
> remove either of these cured oil products? I am thinking the alcohol
> should not do a thing to either of these oil products, once cured on a
> project. If you want more of the story and offer comments, read on,
> but I'd be satisfied with a short answer to just this question.
>
> The specific issue is: Someone recently marked a tabletop with a
> Sharpie felt pen. According to the owner, the table had been stripped
> (2 years ago) of its original finish and **stained with Varathane
> gunstock oil stain and topcoated with several coats of Hope's 100%
> tung oil. Household alcohol was used to try to remove the Sharpie ink
> and the ink, oil finish and oil stain was came off, when the alcohol
> "cleanser" was used. I find it hard to believe the alcohol would
> affect (remove) the oil finishes, this way, hence, my testing.
>
> **It is reported, that, there were problems, also, with this
> restaining and refinishing, 2 years ago. No details are given about
> these problems, hence one of the unknowns, here.
>
> Also, it is reported the ink penetrated into the tung oil coats....
> that it did not just lay on the surface. I am thinking: Sharpie ink
> would not penetrate into a cured oil finish. Am I wrong? Comments
> please.
>
> I am wondering if the table's refinishing history is accurate. I am
> thinking, either, the reported finishing schedule is incorrect or the
> oils were defected or contaminated (*the finished table coats were
> reported as cured and, after 2 years, whatever finishes were on the
> table, I have to believe was, in fact, cured). I am wondering if a
> shellac type product was actually used, rather than the oils, as
> reported.
>
> Subsequently: The ink affected areas have been prepped and ready for
> restaining and topcoating. Again, oil topcoating was attempted, but
> the oil is not adhering properly.... it is bubbling up. I am
> wondering if this problem is similar to the problems of 2 years ago,
> when the stripping and restaining was done, then.
>
> So: Should the household alcohol have removed the oil finishes, as
> reported? If the answer is no, then I think I've been given an
> incorrect history of this table.

Well, I tried a couple of experiments. I found out that 50% isopropyl
does have some effect on both Varathane and tung oil.

I had intended to make a sample and set it aside for a year and see what
happened, just for my one information, but in the process of doing that,
I found that I had enough material to get some answers.

There was some dried stain on the bare (Harbor Freight jummy-)wood
handle of the disposable brush I had used to apply it last time I used
it. It had been there for more than a month so I think it was as cured
as it's going to get. I tried alcohol on that. As expected, the stain
on the surface came right off but that down in the grain wasn't touched.
I poured alcohol on the handle and let it sit until it had nearly all
evaporated then tried rubbing and it still did not remove the stain down
in the crevices in the grain. I found a couple of drips on the bench
top. I went after one of those with alcohol and it cleaned off with
some effort. I tried the other one with a bare towel and it also came
off, but in flakes that shook off of the towel rather than as a
continuous discoloration.

I got out the bottle of tung oil (been years since I had touched it--had
a child-safe cap on it and wasn't _that_ fun) and found that it had some
runs and fingerprints and whatnot on the outside of the bottle. I tried
wiping the runs and fingerprints and whatnot off with a towel and
scraping them with my fingernail and neither removed them. So I wiped
it down with a rag and alcohol and it again took some effort but it did
clean up.

Conclusion--50% isopropyl will dissolve both Varathane Premium stain and
100% tung oil, but it is not particularly agressive about doing either
and doesn't remove the stain from the indentations in the grain.

Now as to whether it should have "removed" the finishes, I'd really need
to see the piece I think.

In article <aea17eb0-689b-48e1-ab80-f7a1f232d4e2
@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> On Jan 10, 6:28 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Benzene is the bad guy.
> > Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is benzine.  
> > For benzine think lighter fluid.
>
> Thanks, Han. I know what benzine is and have used it as a cleaning
> agent on site.
>
> Anyone that has lived in the USA knows what benzine is if they have
> had anything dry cleaned. Benzine, mixed with other stuff was the
> cleaner of choice for about 40 years for garments that required "dry"
> cleaning.
>
> I remember in the early 60s, my Mom would get my Dad's suits from the
> cleaners and hang them out in the garage with the bag off to let the
> benzine smell evaporate before he wore them.

His point was that benzine with an "i" is different from "benzene" with
three "e"s. There's also a "benzyne" with a "y" that is different from
either.

In the US the stuff that in Han's part of the world is called "benzine"
is sold as "VM&P Naphtha".

Further, you have to be a really old guy to remember benzene used for
dry cleaning--it went out in the '30s when effective non-flammable
solvents became available.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1fd1f89a-
[email protected]:

> On Jan 9, 6:04 pm, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Just as I suspected. No benzine in a Sharpie.
>> Below is the MSDS. Nice misinformation.
>
> Well, nice catch. I hope you didn't miss any sleep. It appears I was
> thinking of xylene, or even toluene. Apparently, there never was any
> benzine in the markers. Whoops! But hey, what's a few V.O.C.s
> between friends?
>
> Apparently only a few models even have xylene in them anymore. When
> you Googled, I am sure you found that the makers of Sharpies are quite
> proud that most of their products no longer have the really V.O.C.
> components. Personally, I wasn't aware of big change over to the new
> carriers.
>
> Now if we are just sure it wasn't an older Sharpie, or a marker from
> another maker (like a Xerox is used for a copy, or a Coke is used for
> any kind of fizzy drink), we would be spot on, no?
>
> Still, good to be up to date. Thanks for the info.
>
> Robert

Benzene is the bad guy.
Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is benzine.
For benzine think lighter fluid.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Dry cleaning fluid is Perchlorethane, commonly known as "Perc".
>
> Benzene is really nasty stuff and should never be used as a cleaner.
> AFAIK, it's not legal to use for anything other than making gasoline.
>

Benzene is not gasoline, nor an appreciable % of gasoline. It is an
extremely good solvent since it is both hydrophobic and hydrophilic. It is
also really bad for you ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:vq%[email protected]:

> Yeah, then came carbon tetrachloride, that people dropped dead from,
> the very same day, and now trichlorethylene, only one twenty fifth as
> toxic. I guess you have twenty five days to drop dead now...LOL
>
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Further, you have to be a really old guy to remember benzene used for
> dry cleaning--it went out in the '30s when effective non-flammable
> solvents became available.

Carbon tet is a cumulative liver poison. Dad used it often enough to get
small stains out. Died at almost 93 from brain atherosclerosis and its
consequences (bad).


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

top posting corrected
> "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Carbon tet is a cumulative liver poison. Dad used it often enough to
>> get small stains out. Died at almost 93 from brain atherosclerosis
>> and its consequences (bad).
>
> Many of thee toxins are stored in human fat tissues. Year later when
> you lose body fat they are released and bingo, liver failure.
>
> My boss from years back worked in motor repair and claimed they used
> to "bathe" in the stuff. It never hurt anybody he knew. Within two
> sent3nces he talked about so-and-so dropping dead for some mysterious
> reason...LOL
>
> We have been through some nasty chemicals. Internet and safety
> processes brought about by unions has helped a lot to create
> awareness.

Exactly, it is a dose effect and fat storage of poisons is also
important. Release upon starvation does at times become important.
Dad's liver was fine until the end ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Jan 10, 6:28=A0am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:

> Benzene is the bad guy.
> Benzine is like gasoline, in fact the Dutch word for gasoline is benzine.=
=A0
> For benzine think lighter fluid.

Thanks, Han. I know what benzine is and have used it as a cleaning
agent on site.

Anyone that has lived in the USA knows what benzine is if they have
had anything dry cleaned. Benzine, mixed with other stuff was the
cleaner of choice for about 40 years for garments that required "dry"
cleaning.

I remember in the early 60s, my Mom would get my Dad's suits from the
cleaners and hang them out in the garage with the bag off to let the
benzine smell evaporate before he wore them.

Robert

Wow... lots of questions.

First, yes a Sharpie will EASILY penetrate an oil finish. No
problem. One of the carriers in the Sharpie ink that allows great
penetration on almost any surface is benzine. Oil finishes are no
match, nor are many others. Sharpies will ruin just about any finish
you can imagine.

Second household alcohol shouldn't do anything that water wouldn't do
to your oil finishes. Those "tung oil" and other types of finishes
sold for gun stocks are hybrid oil finishes in the varnish family,
made to pad onto a surface, one little skinny coat at a time. They
are made for the home guy (that doesn't mean a poor end product) that
wants an easy to apply. fool proof finish that doesn't take much skill
to apply.

> Household alcohol was used to try to remove the Sharpie ink
> and the ink, oil finish and oil stain was came off, when the alcohol
> "cleanser" was used. I find it hard to believe the alcohol would
> affect (remove) the oil finishes, this way, hence, my testing.

Remember that household alcohol is usually 50% (rarely 70%) water.
Just plain old water, nothing special. So household alcohol could
raise a water stain on your oil finish, but it shouldn't remove it. I
would think most likely your finish came off due to some industrious
scrubbing needed to get the deep penetration of the Sharpie ink off.

You should also know that tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
conditioned walnut oil, and on an on..... provide protection against
dust. That's about it. It has no abrasion resistance, no resistance
to cleaning agents, isn't water resistant, and it yellows badly over
time. Good stuff, no?

Using it to finish a table top is nuts. It sounds to me that someone
couldn't even manage an easy finish, so they chickened out and just
rubbed oil on it. As far as the oil bubbling up, there is obviously
something bad going on there. If you are bubbling up the old finish,
the new finish you are putting on the now is to hot, has too many
VOCs, however you want to say it. If the new finish is bubbling up,
you probably have contaminates on the surface such as dusting spray or
spray polish. Good luck getting that off. Lacquer thinner will do
it, but it will destroy that oil cured stuff on the table.

Now the good news of course, is that it should be easy enough to strip
off that cheesy, thin, oil finish and put on a real finish. ;^)
(Just thinking of an earlier thread....)

Robert

On Jan 11, 8:23=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> His point was that benzine with an "i" is different from "benzene" with
> three "e"s. =A0There's also a "benzyne" with a "y" that is different from
> either.

I decided to join you at Google U. Sadly, we ugly Americans seem to
spell it as we will, refer to it as we will. While I was able to find
a few odd references to the usage of "y" in the mix, the "e"s and "i"s
seem to be used even in the sites owned by suing attorneys with wild
abandon.

> Further, you have to be a really old guy to remember benzene used for
> dry cleaning--it went out in the '30s when effective non-flammable
> solvents became available.

Not so. When attending Google U classes, you must read as much
material as you can stand. The dry cleaning agent used widely by the
industry in the 30's (benzine? benzene? benzyne?) fell out of favor,
but didn't disappear.

In fact, small shops found it to be a cheap and effective method of
cleaning, and apparently used it until meeting OSHA goals became
impossible.

From I L Feitshans
Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health,
Baltimore, MD 21205.

***********

Regulatory History of Benzene Exposure in the U.S.

***********
The first evidence of risk from acute or chronic effects
for exposure to benzene was recognized in 1900 (13). According
to OSHA, "the benzene-leukemia link was first
identified in 1897 in a report on the leukemia death of a
worker occupationally exposed to benzene" (14). Winslow
recommended a 100-ppm exposure limit in 1927 (15). Benzene's
long regulatory history began in 1934, when Massachusetts
established a Division of Occupational Hygiene
in its Department of Labor and Industries (16) to
investigate benzene toxicity. Based upon reports by Bowditch,
Hunter, Mallory, and Elkins (17), it set a "maximum
acceptable limit" (MAC) of 75 ppm, which was soon
reduced to 35 ppm.
In 1946, the American Conference of Government Industrial
Hygienists (ACGIH) recommended a threshold
limit value (TLV) of 100 ppm for benzene, which was lowered lowered
to 35 ppm in 1948 and 25 ppm in 1963 (18). In 1971,
OSHA adopted the voluntary industrial limit of 10 ppm,
set by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI)
as part of its acceptance of "national consensus standards"
(19). In that same year, the International Labor
Office (ILO), a specialized agency of the United Nations,
adopted ILO Convention number 136, "Convention Concerning
Protection Against Hazards Arising From Benzene,"
which incorporated the ACGIH's standard and set
an international ceiling of 25 ppm for occupational exposure.

***********

A follow up on the adoption of using benzene in the dry cleaning
industry reveals that a large group of cleaners didn't move from using
benzene as a cheap and effective agent for business, but simply used
safer handling techniques.

Apparently (your Google search terms may yield different results) the
industry moved away from benzine for good after the 1963 ruling to
lower the recommended count of 33 ppm in 1963. Since at that time
OSHA had little or no enforcement capability at that time, it is
unclear exactly how long it took the industry to move away from
benzene compound.

No doubt you found that it is still used for cleaning in certain
circumstances today.

No doubt you found it is still used in manufacture of certain goods.

In the end, I think I just don't care.

Robert

Sonny wrote,on my timestamp of 9/01/2011 1:37 PM:

>
> So: Should the household alcohol have removed the oil finishes, as
> reported? If the answer is no, then I think I've been given an
> incorrect history of this table.

Normal alcohol should not take off oil finishes. I'm inclined to agree with you
on the incorrect history.
Strong possibility that some wax+shellac combination was used and that could
indeed be damaged by alcohol. And it'd have been damaged as well by the sharpie
ink, which usually contains alcohol-based solvent.

Just as I suspected. No benzine in a Sharpie.
Below is the MSDS. Nice misinformation.

Colors: All Colors
NewellRubbermaid, Inc (Sanford L.P.) is a member of The Art and Creative
Materials Institute, Inc. This product is certified by the Institute to
be labeled in accordance with the voluntary chronic hazard labeling
standard ASTM D-4236 and is labeled with the AP Non Toxic Seal.
Products bearing the AP Approved Product Seal of The Art and Creative
Materials Institute, Inc. are certified in a program of toxicological
evaluation by a medical expert, subject to review by the Institute
Toxicology Advisory Board, to contain no materials in sufficient
quantities to be
toxic or injurious to humans, or to cause acute toxicity or chronic
health problems.
Section Two: Hazard Identification
Not Hazardous under normal use conditions. Not for use on skin. Do not
ingest. Contact with eyes may cause irritation.
Section Three: Composition
Dyes
Pigments
Solvent Mixture: Butanol (71-36-3), Propanol (71-23-8), Diacetone
Alcohol (123-42-2), Ethanol (64-17-5)

On 1/9/2011 5:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Wow... lots of questions.
>
> First, yes a Sharpie will EASILY penetrate an oil finish. No
> problem. One of the carriers in the Sharpie ink that allows great
> penetration on almost any surface is benzine. Oil finishes are no
> match, nor are many others. Sharpies will ruin just about any finish
> you can imagine.
>
> Second household alcohol shouldn't do anything that water wouldn't do
> to your oil finishes. Those "tung oil" and other types of finishes
> sold for gun stocks are hybrid oil finishes in the varnish family,
> made to pad onto a surface, one little skinny coat at a time. They
> are made for the home guy (that doesn't mean a poor end product) that
> wants an easy to apply. fool proof finish that doesn't take much skill
> to apply.
>
>> Household alcohol was used to try to remove the Sharpie ink
>> and the ink, oil finish and oil stain was came off, when the alcohol
>> "cleanser" was used. I find it hard to believe the alcohol would
>> affect (remove) the oil finishes, this way, hence, my testing.
>
> Remember that household alcohol is usually 50% (rarely 70%) water.
> Just plain old water, nothing special. So household alcohol could
> raise a water stain on your oil finish, but it shouldn't remove it. I
> would think most likely your finish came off due to some industrious
> scrubbing needed to get the deep penetration of the Sharpie ink off.
>
> You should also know that tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
> conditioned walnut oil, and on an on..... provide protection against
> dust. That's about it. It has no abrasion resistance, no resistance
> to cleaning agents, isn't water resistant, and it yellows badly over
> time. Good stuff, no?
>
> Using it to finish a table top is nuts. It sounds to me that someone
> couldn't even manage an easy finish, so they chickened out and just
> rubbed oil on it. As far as the oil bubbling up, there is obviously
> something bad going on there. If you are bubbling up the old finish,
> the new finish you are putting on the now is to hot, has too many
> VOCs, however you want to say it. If the new finish is bubbling up,
> you probably have contaminates on the surface such as dusting spray or
> spray polish. Good luck getting that off. Lacquer thinner will do
> it, but it will destroy that oil cured stuff on the table.
>
> Now the good news of course, is that it should be easy enough to strip
> off that cheesy, thin, oil finish and put on a real finish. ;^)
> (Just thinking of an earlier thread....)
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Many of thee toxins are stored in human fat tissues. Year later when you
lose body fat they are released and bingo, liver failure.

My boss from years back worked in motor repair and claimed they used to
"bathe" in the stuff. It never hurt anybody he knew. Within two sent3nces he
talked about so-and-so dropping dead for some mysterious reason...LOL

We have been through some nasty chemicals. Internet and safety processes
brought about by unions has helped a lot to create awareness.



"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Carbon tet is a cumulative liver poison. Dad used it often enough to get
small stains out. Died at almost 93 from brain atherosclerosis and its
consequences (bad).


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Wow do I find it hard to believe that benzine is used in sharpies.
Alcohol yes, since it removes sharpie marks, but benzine.

Knowing how carcinogenic it is, I doubt that it is in a sharpie.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

On 1/9/2011 5:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Wow... lots of questions.
>
> First, yes a Sharpie will EASILY penetrate an oil finish. No
> problem. One of the carriers in the Sharpie ink that allows great
> penetration on almost any surface is benzine. Oil finishes are no
> match, nor are many others. Sharpies will ruin just about any finish
> you can imagine.
>
> Second household alcohol shouldn't do anything that water wouldn't do
> to your oil finishes. Those "tung oil" and other types of finishes
> sold for gun stocks are hybrid oil finishes in the varnish family,
> made to pad onto a surface, one little skinny coat at a time. They
> are made for the home guy (that doesn't mean a poor end product) that
> wants an easy to apply. fool proof finish that doesn't take much skill
> to apply.
>
>> Household alcohol was used to try to remove the Sharpie ink
>> and the ink, oil finish and oil stain was came off, when the alcohol
>> "cleanser" was used. I find it hard to believe the alcohol would
>> affect (remove) the oil finishes, this way, hence, my testing.
>
> Remember that household alcohol is usually 50% (rarely 70%) water.
> Just plain old water, nothing special. So household alcohol could
> raise a water stain on your oil finish, but it shouldn't remove it. I
> would think most likely your finish came off due to some industrious
> scrubbing needed to get the deep penetration of the Sharpie ink off.
>
> You should also know that tung oil, linseed oil, boiled linseed oil,
> conditioned walnut oil, and on an on..... provide protection against
> dust. That's about it. It has no abrasion resistance, no resistance
> to cleaning agents, isn't water resistant, and it yellows badly over
> time. Good stuff, no?
>
> Using it to finish a table top is nuts. It sounds to me that someone
> couldn't even manage an easy finish, so they chickened out and just
> rubbed oil on it. As far as the oil bubbling up, there is obviously
> something bad going on there. If you are bubbling up the old finish,
> the new finish you are putting on the now is to hot, has too many
> VOCs, however you want to say it. If the new finish is bubbling up,
> you probably have contaminates on the surface such as dusting spray or
> spray polish. Good luck getting that off. Lacquer thinner will do
> it, but it will destroy that oil cured stuff on the table.
>
> Now the good news of course, is that it should be easy enough to strip
> off that cheesy, thin, oil finish and put on a real finish. ;^)
> (Just thinking of an earlier thread....)
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Yeah, then came carbon tetrachloride, that people dropped dead from, the
very same day, and now trichlorethylene, only one twenty fifth as toxic. I
guess you have twenty five days to drop dead now...LOL


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Further, you have to be a really old guy to remember benzene used for
dry cleaning--it went out in the '30s when effective non-flammable
solvents became available.