Semi OT Electrical Question

Neutrals although grounded at the service are not grounds. Reason being that
any voltage drop across conductors is halved in the neutral. ( There are
exceptions ) This can be from other loads connected to that neutral.
Therefore a neutral can carry a voltage potential at the outlet. NEC now
requires any 2 wire outlets not having a ground and being replaced, be done
so with GFCIs. This does not ground the device connected but does offer
protection from any fault that results in a more than a 5 milliamp
difference between the conductors or current detected in the grounded
conductor of the device fitted with a 3 prong plug. A separate ground wire
is preferred.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2 prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

Is the wiring 'BX' (metal sheath)? If it is, check if you have 120 V between the Hot and the metal box. If there is, the ground is
being carried by the cable sheath. What you will want to do is to attach a ground strap to the box, then to the outlet.

If there is no ground present, then follow the other advice given.

--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Houses existed long before grounds were mandated, and continue to exist;
but
> a separate ground is a redundency that significantly increases safety. My
> dryer has no ground (technically, practically it has no neutral) so 7.5a
is
> available to any one touching bare metal on it. No one has been hurt, in
> fact maybe no one has been hurt on the millions of similar dryers, but
> wouldn't it be nicer to eliminate the possibility by separating the ground
> and neutral?

Consider the electrical devices used in the average home. Most would be
relatively safe without grounding. A small point on your skin generally has
a resistance of about 10,000 ohms. touching a 120 v. connection would draw
only about 1/10 of an amp. in current if you were also in contact with a
grounded item. Translated, that's about 1 watt of power divided across 4 to
5 feet of ones body. It would cause a definite reaction, but no damage. Not
being in contact with a ground on a wooden floor, It might not even be
detectable. However a firm grip on a faulty all metal drill handle not
properly grounded and standing on damp grass, This could be a lethal
situation as the trigger switch is pulled.

Simple lamps have the possibility to become connected to the outer socket.
There is usually only a paper sleeve separating the metal case from the
screw shell. In a few years and using over 60 watt lamps the paper all but
disintegrates. This is almost never detected by the user.

Insurance companies reserve the right to compensation or denial of claims
resulting from willful or deliberate negligence. Everything can become
defective over time. Normally a faulty deteriorated electrical connection
inside a wall box is not negligent. Pennies behind fuses or a frayed or
otherwise defective extension cord used even temporarily across a floor if
proven to be an accident cause could be reason to deny a claim.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

Chipper Wood wrote:

> touching a 120 v. connection would
> draw only about 1/10 of an amp. in current if you were also in contact
> with a grounded item. Translated, that's about 1 watt of power divided
> across 4 to 5 feet of ones body. It would cause a definite reaction, but
> no damage.


Actually, this amount of current is far from harmless and may be fatal. See
<http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123b.html>,
<http://www.tpub.com/content/fc/14098/css/14098_34.htm>, and
<http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html>.


--
--
Steve

Steve,
Using the first site you posted, Between 5 and 100 milliamps is what I was
referring to. Milli as in millennium = 1/1000 100/1000 = 1/10 amp. This
will get your attention and cause a reflex. From experience, 277 v. is about
2 1/2 times this amount and is definitely painful at just a touch. Multiply
the contact by the area of holding a metal device such as wire strippers
firmly and at 120 v. there is a disabling or lethal current present. IMHO,
There is nothing about contact with household electric current that can be
considered 'harmless' and I hope that no one derived that conclusion from
what I wrote.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"Steve Dunbar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chipper Wood wrote:
>
> > touching a 120 v. connection would
> > draw only about 1/10 of an amp. in current if you were also in contact
> > with a grounded item. Translated, that's about 1 watt of power divided
> > across 4 to 5 feet of ones body. It would cause a definite reaction, but
> > no damage.
>
>
> Actually, this amount of current is far from harmless and may be fatal.
See
> <http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123b.html>,
> <http://www.tpub.com/content/fc/14098/css/14098_34.htm>, and
> <http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html>.
>
>
> --
> --
> Steve

For the sake of discussion, Most of this post is true. However there are
some statements that I do not totally agree with in opinion.

> Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot
wire
> or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case.

Any path for an electric potential to be transferred to a person be it
metal, water or otherwise is a danger.

>, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
> to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
> the same thing.

Neutrals are current carrying conductors. A poor or open connection can
induce up to the full potential voltage on it.

> Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected to ground at the box.

Neutrals are bonded to ground at the service to insure incidental voltages
induced in any circuit have a path to ground and not transferred to all the
wiring. ( Lightning strikes to a service or other conductor as an example.)

>I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years.

In my experience, overheated connection failures are about 80% in neutrals.
Even on grounded device plugs. Never knew why....

> BUT This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
> ground path.

The safety codes and rules are determined by tradesmen, fire officials,
engineers and insurance companies. People directly involved. The government
only tries to enforce them.


>Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
>their chassis hot to ground.

In many this was done intentionally as one supply wire was deliberately
connected to the 'isolated' chassis.

>It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged
into
>an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
>the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A
device
>that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop
would
>be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
>burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly
off.
>Bad News!

The current demand on a device would not determine an overload condition
from a single fault unless it was grounded with a separate conductor.
Burning out of the fault would disconnect the fault. Generally greatly
overloaded windings will cause insulation failure and short circuit within
the winding, draw excess current and more heating, also possibly causing a
ground fault, eventually destroying continuity of the windings stopping its
operation while still allowing that fault connection to an ungrounded
device.

I would welcome any corrections if I appear to be mistaken or misinformed.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should
do,
> just the facts.
>
Think electric
> drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
> let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
> work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
> fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
> "grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
> and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
> holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm,
about
> the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.
>
> NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
> called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
> others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
> fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral
wire
> opens for some reason. BUT This is the government helping us by demanding
a redundant
> ground path.
>
> Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
> small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
> enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
> to ground at the box.. , but I
> HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch
of
> equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal
cable
> from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
> was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
> while holding the metal connector on the cable!
>
> At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
> tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets
and
> plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
> Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be
miswired.
>
> Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
> intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
> used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
> case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.
>
> Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
> their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
> the case and knobs!
>
> If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral
as
> a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a
neutral
> wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
> The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.
>
> It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged
into
> an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because
of
> the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A
device
> that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop
would
> be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
> burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly
off.
> Bad News!
>
> I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your
bedlamp
> and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
> grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
> needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand
shock
> is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
> mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.
>
> Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
> heart nerve location.
>
> Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.
>
> Wilson
>
> "John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Folks -
> >
> > I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> > story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather
than
> > grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
> hot
> > (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
> >
> > Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and
neutral
> > common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
> prong
> > outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
> grounds
> > would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
> terminals
> > also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
> >
> > I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> > The last thing I want is a fire....
> >
> > I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of
the
> > timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
> >
> > John Moorhead
> >
> >
>
>

Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
just the facts.

Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.

NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral wire
opens for some reason. BUT, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
the same thing. This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
ground path.

Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
to ground at the box.. I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years, but I
HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch of
equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal cable
from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
while holding the metal connector on the cable!

At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets and
plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be miswired.

Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.

Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
the case and knobs!

If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral as
a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a neutral
wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.

It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged into
an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A device
that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop would
be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly off.
Bad News!

I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your bedlamp
and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand shock
is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.

Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
heart nerve location.

Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.

Wilson

"Chipper Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Neutrals although grounded at the service are not grounds. Reason being
that
> any voltage drop across conductors is halved in the neutral. ( There are
> exceptions ) This can be from other loads connected to that neutral.
> Therefore a neutral can carry a voltage potential at the outlet. NEC now
> requires any 2 wire outlets not having a ground and being replaced, be
done
> so with GFCIs. This does not ground the device connected but does offer
> protection from any fault that results in a more than a 5 milliamp
> difference between the conductors or current detected in the grounded
> conductor of the device fitted with a 3 prong plug. A separate ground wire
> is preferred.
> --
> Chipper Wood
>
> useours, yours won't work
>
> "John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Folks -
> >
> > I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> > story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather
than
> > grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
> hot
> > (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
> >
> > Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and
neutral
> > common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
> prong
> > outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
> grounds
> > would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
> terminals
> > also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
> >
> > I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> > The last thing I want is a fire....
> >
> > I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of
the
> > timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
> >
> > John Moorhead
> >
> >
>
>

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 03:32:50 +0000, John Moorhead wrote:

> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2 prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....

NO, _NOT_ safe and don't do it. Electrocution is probably the first
concern, fire somewhere after that.

-Doug

--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

"John Moorhead" writes:

> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire?

NO ! !


> Would this work and be safe?

NO ! !

> Only having 2 prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work.

Agreed.

> Would bridging the ground and common terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?

NO ! !

> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....

You need to find a qualified electrical contractor who specializes in
residential re-wire jobs.

Up front, this one won't be cheap.

My guess is all the existing wiring is loom, knob and tube which just makes
the job more difficult.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

They are out of hand and should be decapitated.
Once the plans are approved, that should be IT. If you build to the plans,
you should be left alone. There should be only ONE of them allowed on your
property!
Wilson
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws@_arrl.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:00:58 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
> [snip]
>
> | And of course, the local inspector
> |is the final authority.
>
>
> Unfortunately, so true.
>
> I added a laundry/sewing room and garage/workshop to my house.
> Because the laundry was a long way from the primary cooling system
> (dual evaporative/refrigerated), even though I tapped into the supply
> duct, I didn't expect much flow. Since I was also adding an
> evaporative cooler to the garage, I drew up plans that included a
> supplemental cooling duct from the garage into the laundry. To
> minimize the run, I compromised the location of the cooler as far as
> the garage was concerned.
>
> The plans were approved by the plans examiners, and the installed
> ductwork was approved by the mechanical field inspector. During the
> final framing inspection, the inspector (another one) told my wife (I
> was still working at the time) that having a duct from a garage into a
> living space was against code and I would have to remove it. He in
> essence voided the previous inspection. He also convinced SWMBO that
> this was a huge fire hazard and we were all going to die.
>
> I went back to the plans examiners with this info and they said
> (quote) "Bull shit."
>
> I appealed to the head of the inspection department and he said that
> he would never overrule one of his field inspectors because, "They are
> there in the field, I am here behind a desk, so I have to trust their
> judgement."
>
> Rather than fighting city hall and SWMBO, I removed the duct.

John,

A 2 conductor system can be converted to a 3 conductor if done properly.
Call in a professional if you don't know how.

Done correctly, a GFCI can be used in a 2 conductor system. Adding a GFCI
outlet to the circuit makes the circuit safe for you. But it doesn't make
it safe for your equipment - you need a ground to make surge suppressors or
line filters effective. The NEC requires that three prong receptacles
without ground that are protected by GFCI must be labelled as such.

Any existing wiring must meet or exceed any local codes and/or the National
Electric Code (NEC) that were in effect at time of installation. Any new
wiring, including remodeling work, must meet or exceed the current local
and/or NEC codes . The 2002 is the current version NEC, but the 2005 NEC
code book is scheduled to be released in October, 2004. Also, if you do
major work, you may be required to upgrade certain existing portions or all
of your system. Check with your local electrical inspector.

If you are worried about a fire, call/hire an electrician. Remember
insurance won't pay if faulty wiring is found to be the cause.

Randy

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

> You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
> provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available.

Yes, it is a 3 prong outlet, but it is the same as breaking the ground off
the plug; the ground on the GFCI is not connected to anything.
Off hand I can't think of anywhere this distinction would matter, except for
a possible nuisance trip.

Someone wrote:

> | And of course, the local inspector
> |is the final authority.

"Wes Stewart" added:

> Unfortunately, so true.

<snip a tale of inspection woes>

Your tale reminds me of my first supervisor, a brilliant engineer who
designed and built his own home.

The electrical distribution system was a marvel to observe. It included the
early vintage low voltage control.

When it was time for the electrical inspection before things could be
finished, my supervisor took the day off and made arrangements to meet the
electrical inspector to be on site to answer any questions he may have.

A point of reference, at this point in time, unless it was knob and tube, a
union electrician would not wire a house.

This was not a knob and tube job since my supervisor did the work.

This obviously raised a red flag, but so be it.

As the story was related to me, my supervisor so totally overwhelmed the
inspector with information that it was unnecessary to baffle him with
bullshit.

(He had that way about him)

After about 20 minutes, inspector signed off on the job.



--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
just the facts.

Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.

NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral wire
opens for some reason. BUT, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
the same thing. This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
ground path.

Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
to ground at the box.. I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years, but I
HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch of
equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal cable
from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
while holding the metal connector on the cable!

At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets and
plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be miswired.

Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.

Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
the case and knobs!

If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral as
a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a neutral
wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.

It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged into
an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A device
that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop would
be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly off.
Bad News!

I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your bedlamp
and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand shock
is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.

Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
heart nerve location.

Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.

Wilson

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

...
> You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
> provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available. This is safe
> because the GFCI will trip if there is any fault current flowing to an
> external ground (like between your hair dryer and the sink faucet via
> your arms!).

May I ask your source of that information? I would like to verify it. It's
true you can use a GFCI on a 2-wire ckt, with a 2-prong outlet, but NOT in
order to provide a 3-prong outlet!! The 3-wire system provides a level of
protection that is far superior to 2-wire, and ANYONE could look at that
sort of a setup and think it's safe to use equipment that REQUIRES the third
wire!
Also, everything from TVs to computers, surge suppressors, telephone,
stereos, any modern electronic equipment, will very likely experience noise
and interference problems, and surge protection components as provided IN
most electronic equipment, would be unable to function, and any external
surge/power protectors would be nothing but useless power bars with no
function. The place would be a real pain to most electronic equipment on
the market today.
Technically, onle Class 2, 2-wire equipment would be acceptable to run
on that setup.


A possible solution might be to:
-- Put in your own ground rod in a location where it can be run into the
breaker box?
-- The meter must have a ground: Can that be tapped into, say, at the
service entrance?
-- How about a metal water line? Caution: PROVE it's a grounded metal,
not just looks like it is. Anyone in the business can tell you quickly.

Pop & his two cents

...
>
> > May I ask your source of that information? I would like to verify it.
It's
>
> Check the NEC. Yes, this is the recommended way to provide
> a 3-prong outlet on a non-grounded circuit. Note: it is
> *supposed* to be marked so that you can tell it is not
> providing a ground. The idea is, at least you won't
> eletrocute yourself or somebody this way.
>
...

No, YOU check the NEC; you missed something. I already know what it says.
Where you went off track was in failing to mention that such a situation can
ONLY exist IF it is marked! There are also restrictions on HOW the outlet
can be so marked, and I highly doubt that you could get ANY inspector to
accept an entire domain wired that way. Your advice sounded to the
contrary. If you don't know about the marking rules, check your NEC. And
then check your locals. You must meet the more stringent of the two (or
three, or four depending on where you live)! NEC is only a minimum
requirement in the event of no other coverage. Any local code can exceed
but not decede, the NEC. Almost all do.

It seems like you mentioned NY? Hell in this state, you can hardly
put water in a toilet if there's an outlet within a hundred feet! It's
union's paradise!

Now, if you also go to your local code enforcement, you are highly likely
in most localities to find that you would NOT be allowed to use that wiring
method.

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:00:58 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
[snip]

| And of course, the local inspector
|is the final authority.


Unfortunately, so true.

I added a laundry/sewing room and garage/workshop to my house.
Because the laundry was a long way from the primary cooling system
(dual evaporative/refrigerated), even though I tapped into the supply
duct, I didn't expect much flow. Since I was also adding an
evaporative cooler to the garage, I drew up plans that included a
supplemental cooling duct from the garage into the laundry. To
minimize the run, I compromised the location of the cooler as far as
the garage was concerned.

The plans were approved by the plans examiners, and the installed
ductwork was approved by the mechanical field inspector. During the
final framing inspection, the inspector (another one) told my wife (I
was still working at the time) that having a duct from a garage into a
living space was against code and I would have to remove it. He in
essence voided the previous inspection. He also convinced SWMBO that
this was a huge fire hazard and we were all going to die.

I went back to the plans examiners with this info and they said
(quote) "Bull shit."

I appealed to the head of the inspection department and he said that
he would never overrule one of his field inspectors because, "They are
there in the field, I am here behind a desk, so I have to trust their
judgement."

Rather than fighting city hall and SWMBO, I removed the duct.

What you said is reasonable EXCEPT

The electrical code is extremely conservative, but that allows a lot of us
to be still be alive and our houses still standing after doing dumb things.
Since we will continue to do dumb things, it is best to leave the redundency
there.

Houses existed long before grounds were mandated, and continue to exist; but
a separate ground is a redundency that significantly increases safety. My
dryer has no ground (technically, practically it has no neutral) so 7.5a is
available to any one touching bare metal on it. No one has been hurt, in
fact maybe no one has been hurt on the millions of similar dryers, but
wouldn't it be nicer to eliminate the possibility by separating the ground
and neutral?

Probably the worst aspect of the OP's idea is that a user would have no idea
it was done, and would think the grounded conductor really was a grounded
conductor rather than a grounding conductor (yes, those are the correct
names). If he then does something dumb, there is no safety net.

Pop Rivet <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
> > You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
> > provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available. This is safe
> > because the GFCI will trip if there is any fault current flowing to an
> > external ground (like between your hair dryer and the sink faucet via
> > your arms!).

> May I ask your source of that information? I would like to verify it. It's

Check the NEC. Yes, this is the recommended way to provide
a 3-prong outlet on a non-grounded circuit. Note: it is
*supposed* to be marked so that you can tell it is not
providing a ground. The idea is, at least you won't
eletrocute yourself or somebody this way.

If it were my old house, I'd rewire it. Yes it's a pain,
but worth it in the long run.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Pop Rivet <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Pop Rivet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > ...
> > >
> > > a 3-prong outlet on a non-grounded circuit. Note: it is
> > > *supposed* to be marked so that you can tell it is not
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > providing a ground. The idea is, at least you won't
> > > eletrocute yourself or somebody this way.
> > >
> > ...
> >
> > No, YOU check the NEC; you missed something. I already know what it
> says.
> > Where you went off track was in failing to mention that such a situation
> can
> > ONLY exist IF it is marked! There are also restrictions on HOW the outlet

Notice that part up there that I just underlined? I said it is supposed
to be marked. I also said, in a part you snipped out, that I would
rewire the whole thing if it were me.

> > can be so marked, and I highly doubt that you could get ANY inspector to
> > accept an entire domain wired that way. Your advice sounded to the
> > contrary. If you don't know about the marking rules, check your NEC. And

NEC allows it when replacing old recepticles, no question. Now, local
laws can be more strict, but I don't know where the OP is or what his
local rules might or might not be. And of course, the local inspector
is the final authority.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:26:44 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

|Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
|just the facts.
|
|Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
|or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
|drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
|let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
|work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
|fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
|"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
|and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
|holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
|the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.


Exactly. Let me offer this personal example.

In my youth I worked in an automotive machine shop. The shop was in
an old building where all of the 110V (standard V in that era) wiring
was two-wire, i.e. no grounding conductor.

We installed an engine balancer and the wiring associated with that
equipment was brought up to code so it included some three-wire
outlets. I was the only person qualified to run the balancing
equipment and the rules were that accessories were to remain at the
balancing station and not to be used elsewhere in the shop.

One day I was balancing a crankshaft/flywheel/clutch plate assembly
and needed to drill a lightening hole in the clutch plate. The bosses
that centered the coil springs had extra material so the process was
to use reach through the middle of the spring with a 1/2" drill bit
and drill into the boss to take out some weight. Since the assembly
was resting horizontally on a set of precision low drag bearings it
was necessary to get a real firm grip on it to keep it from turning
and to apply the necessary force to drill the hole.

So I grabbed the far side of the ring gear with my left hand, cradled
the near side in the crook of my left elbow and with my right hand
stuck the drill bit, mounted in a heavy duty B&D or Milwaukee (I
forget which) 1/2 drill motor into the hole and pulled the trigger.

The shock I received was the worse I've ever experienced and after my
machine shop days I went into EE and between that and ham radio I've
been shocked many times. Since I'm still kicking I surmise that the
current was below the critical current that can cause fibrillation and
the point at which you can't let go.

When I recovered I discovered that some son of a bitch had used the
drill motor elsewhere in the shop and when he couldn't plug it in, had
cut off the ground pin on the connector.

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:50:32 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

|Wes Stewart <n7ws@_arrl.net> writes:
|>On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:00:58 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
|>[snip]
|>
|>| And of course, the local inspector
|>|is the final authority.
|>
|>
|>Unfortunately, so true.
|>
|>I added a laundry/sewing room and garage/workshop to my house.
|>Because the laundry was a long way from the primary cooling system
|>(dual evaporative/refrigerated), even though I tapped into the supply
|>duct, I didn't expect much flow. Since I was also adding an
|>evaporative cooler to the garage, I drew up plans that included a
|>supplemental cooling duct from the garage into the laundry. To
|
|Oops. Instant fire code violation. There are reasons that the garage
|must (per NFPA codes) have:
|
| 1) 5/8" or thicker fire-rated drywall between garage and
| living areas.

Done. 5/8 FC on the garage side, 3/4" (1/2 + 1/4) on the house side.

| 2) Fire-rated, self-closing door(s) between living areas and garage and

Done.

| 3) No openings between garage and living areas, especially ductwork
| which can carry both fire and fumes from the garage into the living
| areas.

Not quite what I was told. I should have added that the SOB inspector
would have allowed thicker sheet metal ductwork and a fire operated
damper on the laundry side. This was way too much hassle and expense
for the limited use I would have made of it.

My main bitch was that I wasted a coupla hundred bucks on sheetmetal
and compromised the cooling in the shop by not optimally locating the
cooler because of the screwed up inspection department.

I should have just bribed them like the developers do and been done
with it.


Wes

Replacing non-grounded outlets with grounded outlets is a violation of most
electrical codes and hence could impact your insurance if problems arise.

Don Dando


"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 03:32:50 GMT, "John Moorhead"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Folks -
>
>I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
>story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
>grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a hot
>(black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
>Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
>common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2 prong
>outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate grounds
>would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common terminals
>also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
<snip>

No. It is not safe nor allowed by code to use a current carrying
conductor (neutral) as an equipment grounding conductor (ground).

If the neutral were to open downstream, you would have 120 volts on
the exterior metal parts of anything connected in that way. Excellent
way to get electrocuted.

You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available. This is safe
because the GFCI will trip if there is any fault current flowing to an
external ground (like between your hair dryer and the sink faucet via
your arms!).

This is not a perfect solution, because you still don't have an actual
ground connection which can help eliminate electrical interference
to/from electronic equipment. But it is safe and allowed by code.

HTH,

Paul

Wes Stewart <n7ws@_arrl.net> writes:
>On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:50:32 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)

>|Oops. Instant fire code violation. There are reasons that the garage
>|must (per NFPA codes) have:
>|
>| 1) 5/8" or thicker fire-rated drywall between garage and
>| living areas.
>
>Done. 5/8 FC on the garage side, 3/4" (1/2 + 1/4) on the house side.
>
>| 2) Fire-rated, self-closing door(s) between living areas and garage and
>
>Done.
>
>| 3) No openings between garage and living areas, especially ductwork
>| which can carry both fire and fumes from the garage into the living
>| areas.
>
>Not quite what I was told. I should have added that the SOB inspector
>would have allowed thicker sheet metal ductwork and a fire operated
>damper on the laundry side. This was way too much hassle and expense
>for the limited use I would have made of it.

Which was why I didn't mention it in (3). Typically only used in
commercial and industrial settings.

>
>My main bitch was that I wasted a coupla hundred bucks on sheetmetal
>and compromised the cooling in the shop by not optimally locating the
>cooler because of the screwed up inspection department.

Yes. Someone goofed if they told you the ductwork was ok without
the fire damper.

>
>I should have just bribed them like the developers do and been done
>with it.

Is it worth the risks (both to life and property as well as your ability
to go where you want, when you want)?

scott

Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
just the facts.

Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.

NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral wire
opens for some reason. BUT, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
the same thing. This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
ground path.

Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
to ground at the box.. I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years, but I
HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch of
equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal cable
from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
while holding the metal connector on the cable!

At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets and
plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be miswired.

Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.

Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
the case and knobs!

If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral as
a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a neutral
wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.

It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged into
an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A device
that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop would
be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly off.
Bad News!

I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your bedlamp
and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand shock
is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.

Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
heart nerve location.

Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.

Wilson

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

Wes Stewart <n7ws@_arrl.net> writes:
>On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:00:58 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>[snip]
>
>| And of course, the local inspector
>|is the final authority.
>
>
>Unfortunately, so true.
>
>I added a laundry/sewing room and garage/workshop to my house.
>Because the laundry was a long way from the primary cooling system
>(dual evaporative/refrigerated), even though I tapped into the supply
>duct, I didn't expect much flow. Since I was also adding an
>evaporative cooler to the garage, I drew up plans that included a
>supplemental cooling duct from the garage into the laundry. To

Oops. Instant fire code violation. There are reasons that the garage
must (per NFPA codes) have:

1) 5/8" or thicker fire-rated drywall between garage and
living areas.
2) Fire-rated, self-closing door(s) between living areas and garage and
3) No openings between garage and living areas, especially ductwork
which can carry both fire and fumes from the garage into the living
areas.

scott

"Pop Rivet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ...
> >
> > > May I ask your source of that information? I would like to verify it.
> It's
> >
> > Check the NEC. Yes, this is the recommended way to provide
> > a 3-prong outlet on a non-grounded circuit. Note: it is
> > *supposed* to be marked so that you can tell it is not
> > providing a ground. The idea is, at least you won't
> > eletrocute yourself or somebody this way.
> >
> ...
>
> No, YOU check the NEC; you missed something. I already know what it
says.
> Where you went off track was in failing to mention that such a situation
can
> ONLY exist IF it is marked! There are also restrictions on HOW the outlet
> can be so marked, and I highly doubt that you could get ANY inspector to
> accept an entire domain wired that way. Your advice sounded to the
> contrary. If you don't know about the marking rules, check your NEC. And
> then check your locals. You must meet the more stringent of the two (or
> three, or four depending on where you live)! NEC is only a minimum
> requirement in the event of no other coverage. Any local code can exceed
> but not decede, the NEC. Almost all do.
>
> It seems like you mentioned NY? Hell in this state, you can hardly
> put water in a toilet if there's an outlet within a hundred feet! It's
> union's paradise!
>
> Now, if you also go to your local code enforcement, you are highly
likely
> in most localities to find that you would NOT be allowed to use that
wiring
> method.
>
>
NO, the idea is that it allowed them to "grandfather" in old buildings where
current regulations would create a severe hardship. You would not get a
permet to use this method on new construction.

Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
just the facts.

Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.

NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral wire
opens for some reason. BUT, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
the same thing. This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
ground path.

Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
to ground at the box.. I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years, but I
HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch of
equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal cable
from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
while holding the metal connector on the cable!

At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets and
plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be miswired.

Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.

Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
the case and knobs!

If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral as
a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a neutral
wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.

It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged into
an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A device
that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop would
be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly off.
Bad News!

I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your bedlamp
and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand shock
is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.

Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
heart nerve location.

Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.

Wilson

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>

Look at the premise here. I said NEUTRAL FAULT to begin with. A small
device would work fine because it wouldn't be drawing enough current to
cause serious drop across the neutral fault. If a serious fault then
developed in the DEVICE, lots of current would flow, possibly burning open
the neutral fault and leaving the device case hot.

Maybe I should have separated the faults more clearly.

Wilson

"Chipper Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For the sake of discussion, Most of this post is true. However there are
> some statements that I do not totally agree with in opinion.
>
> > Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot
> wire
> > or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case.
>
> Any path for an electric potential to be transferred to a person be it
> metal, water or otherwise is a danger.
>
> >, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
> > to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can
do
> > the same thing.
>
> Neutrals are current carrying conductors. A poor or open connection can
> induce up to the full potential voltage on it.
>
> > Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected to ground at the
box.
>
> Neutrals are bonded to ground at the service to insure incidental voltages
> induced in any circuit have a path to ground and not transferred to all
the
> wiring. ( Lightning strikes to a service or other conductor as an
example.)
>
> >I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years.
>
> In my experience, overheated connection failures are about 80% in
neutrals.
> Even on grounded device plugs. Never knew why....
>
> > BUT This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
> > ground path.
>
> The safety codes and rules are determined by tradesmen, fire officials,
> engineers and insurance companies. People directly involved. The
government
> only tries to enforce them.
>
>
> >Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily
get
> >their chassis hot to ground.
>
> In many this was done intentionally as one supply wire was deliberately
> connected to the 'isolated' chassis.
>
> >It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged
> into
> >an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because
of
> >the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A
> device
> >that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop
> would
> >be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
> >burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly
> off.
> >Bad News!
>
> The current demand on a device would not determine an overload condition
> from a single fault unless it was grounded with a separate conductor.
> Burning out of the fault would disconnect the fault. Generally greatly
> overloaded windings will cause insulation failure and short circuit within
> the winding, draw excess current and more heating, also possibly causing a
> ground fault, eventually destroying continuity of the windings stopping
its
> operation while still allowing that fault connection to an ungrounded
> device.
>
> I would welcome any corrections if I appear to be mistaken or misinformed.
> --
> Chipper Wood
>
> useours, yours won't work
>
> "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should
> do,
> > just the facts.
> >
> Think electric
> > drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
> > let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device
will
> > work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that
is
> > fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
> > "grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying
conductor
> > and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
> > holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm,
> about
> > the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.
> >
> > NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
> > called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as
the
> > others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when
a
> > fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral
> wire
> > opens for some reason. BUT This is the government helping us by
demanding
> a redundant
> > ground path.
> >
> > Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by
a
> > small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT
never
> > enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well
connected
> > to ground at the box.. , but I
> > HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch
> of
> > equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal
> cable
> > from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet
that
> > was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
> > while holding the metal connector on the cable!
> >
> > At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the
metal
> > tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets
> and
> > plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
> > Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be
> miswired.
> >
> > Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
> > intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems
were
> > used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the
plastic
> > case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.
> >
> > Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily
get
> > their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only
by
> > the case and knobs!
> >
> > If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral
> as
> > a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a
> neutral
> > wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very
dangerous!
> > The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.
> >
> > It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged
> into
> > an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because
> of
> > the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A
> device
> > that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop
> would
> > be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
> > burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly
> off.
> > Bad News!
> >
> > I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your
> bedlamp
> > and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not
near
> > grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt
floor
> > needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand
> shock
> > is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to
be
> > mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.
> >
> > Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because
of
> > heart nerve location.
> >
> > Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.
> >
> > Wilson
> >
> > "John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Folks -
> > >
> > > I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> > > story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather
> than
> > > grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only
a
> > hot
> > > (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
> > >
> > > Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and
> neutral
> > > common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
> > prong
> > > outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
> > grounds
> > > would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
> > terminals
> > > also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
> > >
> > > I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have
experience.
> > > The last thing I want is a fire....
> > >
> > > I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of
> the
> > > timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
> > >
> > > John Moorhead
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
>> provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available.
>
>Yes, it is a 3 prong outlet, but it is the same as breaking the ground off
>the plug; the ground on the GFCI is not connected to anything.
>Off hand I can't think of anywhere this distinction would matter,

That was explained in the part that you snipped:

You are allowed to install a GFCI outlet with no ground connection to
provide a 3 prong outlet when no ground is available. This is safe
because the GFCI will trip if there is any fault current flowing to an
external ground (like between your hair dryer and the sink faucet via
your arms!).

>except for a possible nuisance trip.

Dunno about you... but IMO in the situation described above, it's much more of
a nuisance if it does *not* trip...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

Welll, let's look at this. I'm not addressing code, or what you should do,
just the facts.

Danger arises when there is an electrical fault (leakage) from the hot wire
or motor winding, etc., of a device to its metallic case. Think electric
drill with an insulation failure in the motor winding. For discussion,
let's say the case is "connected" to the 120V hot wire. This device will
work fine, but you'll be holding the 120V hot in your hand. Even that is
fine, UNTIL you touch a "ground", like a water pipe or the case of a
"grounded" appliance. At that point, YOU are a current carrying conductor
and you will get a healthy (poor choice of word) ZAP. If you are really
holding onto things, there is continuing current flow from arm to arm, about
the worst way to get it, since it goes by your heart.

NOW, there are some errors in some messages. The third wire "ground" is
called that because it doesn't carry current. It is the same size as the
others so it can carry enough current to trip the breaker involved when a
fault occurs. It's there to suck up the fault current IF the neutral wire
opens for some reason. BUT, the neutral is the same size wire and connected
to the ground at the panel. If it and its connections are good, it can do
the same thing. This is the government helping us by demanding a redundant
ground path.

Yes, there IS current in the neutral and yes, it can be above ground by a
small amount (couple volts maybe) if high currents are flowing, BUT never
enough to be harmful. Problems arise if the neutral is not well connected
to ground at the box.. I've NEVER seen this happen in my 62 years, but I
HAVE seen a commercial electrician switch hot and ground, making a bunch of
equipment cases 120V hot! Imagine the spark when I connected a signal cable
from this equipment to something else that was plugged into an outlet that
was properly wired! Thank heavens I didn't pick up the grounded device
while holding the metal connector on the cable!

At first thought, you might ask why not just connect neutral to the metal
tool case and be done with it. That would work, AS LONG as the outlets and
plugs were properly polarized (different width prongs) and connected.
Unfortunately, old plugs were not polarized and newer ones can be miswired.

Remember when "double insulated" tools were the rage? That was an
intermediate stage of development during which two insulation systems were
used. One was the regular motor insulation and the other was the plastic
case of the tool. This is MUCH better than the two wire metal tool.

Most cheap table radios with tubes had no transformer and could easily get
their chassis hot to ground. In this case, the user was protected only by
the case and knobs!

If you followed the above, you can see the temptation to use the neutral as
a ground. In fact, it would work fine and be safe, UNTIL you had a neutral
wire fault, putting your device above ground and making it very dangerous!
The GFI outlet is the right answer, unless you can pull new wire.

It should be said here that a device needing considerable power plugged into
an outlet with a serious neutral fault would not work properly, because of
the voltage drop across the fault, so you might have some warning. A device
that drew very little current might work well, however, since the drop would
be small, but then a fault could occur to cause more current to flow,
burning out the fault and leaving the case hot and the device seemingly off.
Bad News!

I'd try to get good hookups in kitchens and laundry areas, but your bedlamp
and table radio don't have many dangers, partly because they are not near
grounded metal, usually. Same for TVs, etc. A shop with a damp dirt floor
needs protection, especially if you are barefooted. The hand to hand shock
is the most likely and most dangerous. The hand to foot shock tends to be
mitigated by non conductive shoes and dry floors.

Shocks in your left arm are more dangerous than in your right, because of
heart nerve location.

Let me know if anything above is misstated or confusing.

Wilson

"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I have an old Victorian, Circa 1868.... The tenants trashed it, long
> story.... Anyway, most of the electric outlets are two prong, rather than
> grounded.... I would like to put grounded outlets in, but I have only a
hot
> (black) and neutral (white) No separate ground wire....
>
> Would it be safe to install a 3 wire plug and have the ground and neutral
> common to the white wire? Would this work and be safe? Only having 2
prong
> outlets has been a PITA, and getting under the house to run separate
grounds
> would be a real bit of work. Would bridging the ground and common
terminals
> also work and be safe with a GFCI outlet?
>
> I would appreciate any remarks from those that KNOW and have experience.
> The last thing I want is a fire....
>
> I was under the house yesterday and found some old andirons.... All of the
> timber underneath is full dimension stuff, maybe even bigger....
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that can be given....
>
> John Moorhead
>
>