Folks,
I'm fed up of spending ages at the bench stones shaping the primary
bevel of my chisels & plane irons. However, I'm not in the league of
never wanting to sharpen a chisel again (very enjoyable thread that) I'm
just looking to speed things up.
For context, my approach to sharpening is to keep re-honing the
secondary bevel until it's worked its way too far up the blade, then
grind the primary back down again - my reasoning is that this makes for
quick resharpening, at the expense of less frequent but more tiresome
re-creation of the primary bevel. Also every so often I nick a blade and
then it takes forever on my "coarse" 250 grit waterstone.
So time for some power assistance - and the usual set of dilemmas...
Ideally I'd like it to be quick, run cool with no chance of damaging the
steel, but also to cut aggressively enough that I can change the primary
angle of a beefy chisel without sellotaping it to the tool rest and
going back every hour to check on progress. Oh, and repeatable. And
preferably not a hollow grind (though I dont suppose it really makes a
huge difference). For the real edge I'm happy with my waterstones.
When I say quick I'm thinking maybe re-form the primary bevel on a LN
plane iron in a minute or so? Maybe create a new bevel on a 1/4 inch
thick blade in a few minutes?
Here's my current take on my options, and I'd appreciate knowing where
my uninformed, theory-no-practice opinions are off the mark from people
who actually use these techniques!
* Tormek - pricey (£280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
Jet do a cheaper (£190) copy of the tormek, it's got a go-faster knob,
but really the same probably applies as to the tormek;
* Makita horizontal grinder - I read SteveK's posts from some time ago
describing clogging and uneven wear; I'm also wary of uneven grind
depending on distance along radius; and anyway, I can't get this grinder
in the UK :( Though there are some cheaper imitations with what look
like inferior tool rests;
* 8 inch dry bench grinder - fills me with dread of overheating the tool
steel (though I'm sure it'll be fast!); pretty cheap even though better
stones and decent tool rest would ratchet up the price a bit;
* belt sander - 4" belt/disc sanders seem to be around £100, or £50 for
the cheapest (& flimsiest?), so not expensive. I'd have to make a crude
jig as the commercial ones I've seen only fit vertical wheel grinders.
Not sure about heating of the blade - I see Sorby make one
http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm for around £240 with a little
2" belt - too pricey but perhaps indicative of a belt sander being the
way to go?
* Learn how to use those bench stones fool! - maybe it's just me, but
recovering from a nicked blade would take several tens of minutes with
my 250 waterstone.
Having laid that out I guess I'm edging towards the belt sander. Before
I just get on with it anything I've missed?
Rgds all,
graham.
On Feb 9, 7:10 pm, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:01:48 +0000, graham <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >* belt sander - 4" belt/disc sanders seem to be around =A3100, or =A350 =
for
> >the cheapest (& flimsiest?), so not expensive. I'd have to make a crude
> >jig as the commercial ones I've seen only fit vertical wheel grinders.
> >Not sure about heating of the blade - I see Sorby make one
> >http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htmfor around =A3240 with a little
> >2" belt - too pricey but perhaps indicative of a belt sander being the
> >way to go?
> >Having laid that out I guess I'm edging towards the belt sander. Before
> >I just get on with it anything I've missed?
>
> Belt sander should work fine for what you're contemplating- If you
> look around a bit, I know at least the Delta belt/disc combos come
> with a table that can be angled fairly precisely. While that isn't a
> "jig" per se, it would work fine to set the angle you need.
I'm no expert, but here's a summary of some of the methods I've tried
recently:
* Veritas Power Sharpening System - search the archives for this if
you are interested. As the paper dulls, it becomes difficult to
produce a good bevel. At least for me, when the paper is sharp it
works pretty well for grinding. However, it is pretty expensive just
for grinding.
* 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
paper is curving up at the edges. With a 1", you can correct for this
by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt. With either
choice, you have to build your own tool rest, which can be kind of a
pain. More details here: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
grinding.html
* 3M 40 micron micro abrasive sheets on glass -- A hand method that is
too slow for grinding the primary bevel
* 60 grit Norton 3x on glass -- This is a hand method that is really
fast. You can grind the primary bevel in about 60 seconds. However,
there are two draw backs. The blade becomes magnetized, which is
probably minor, but definitely odd. The other problem is that the
edge fractures. It's like chunks of the edge get broken out and it
takes quite a while with finer paper to recover from that problem. I
didn't notice this problem at first, but have definitely seen the
fractures under a 20x microscope. You may be able to alleviate this
by not grinding all the way to the edge, but that can be difficult. I
tried 80 grit paper and it was slower, but had the same problem with
the edge. Anything 100 and below is too slow. If you are going to
try this method, try the 60. For more details, see here: http://
www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/norton3x.html Beach and I had
basically the same results.
* Norton 80 grit blue zirconia sanding belt on glass -- The belt I got
was for a portable sander, so it was pretty short. I couldn't get the
paper to glue down flat to the glass. When I held it down with my
hand, it seemed to work well, but I didn't do a complete test because
I couldn't get it flat on the glass.
* Klingspor 80 grit blue zirconia 8" PSA disk on glass -- I tried a
used disk from the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System when I was
frustrated with the power system. It worked well, which is why later
I tried the sanding belts above. However, the disks are expensive and
it is difficult to use the paper efficiently since it is in the form
of a disk.
* Course silicon carbide bench stone - Norton makes one of these under
the name "Crystolon". It's only $16 from sharpeningsupplies.com.
Brent Beach has had some success with that. I haven't tried it.
Here's Brent's write up: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
benchstone.html
One thing that I have wanted to try is a good, closed coat, wet dry 60
or 80 grit paper that is designed for sanding metal. The theory goes
that the Norton 3x is fast, but is fracturing the edge because it is
an open coat paper, which leaves large sections of the edge
unsupported as you are grinding. You can buy that at auto paint
stores, but I haven't taken the time to go get some. All the places
online that I have seen it only sell giant packs.
In my opinion, grinding accurately and quickly without destroying the
edge is one of the most difficult parts of sharpening.
Mark
On Feb 10, 3:36 am, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2007 19:32:20 -0800, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >* 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
> >works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
> >There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
> >found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
> >the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
> >paper is curving up at the edges. With a 1", you can correct for this
> >by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
> >is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt. With either
> >choice, you have to build your own tool rest, which can be kind of a
> >pain. More details here: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
> >grinding.html
>
> Out of curiousity, does your 4" belt sander tension the paper in the
> middle, or does it slide over a supporting plate?
>
> I ask because my sander at home has a metal plate under the belt, and
> I've never had an issue- but the ones at work merely stretch the belt
> over two wheels (the most common type, from what I've seen), and they
> behave exactly as you've described.
My sander stretches the belt between two wheels. I didn't even
realize there were other types of tension mechanisms available. What
kind of sander do you have?
It's good to hear that somebody else had the same problem and it's not
just my technique.
Mark
On Feb 9, 10:37 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The edge is not actually fracturing. The large abrasive grains are cutting
> grooves. With an open coat paper, most of the abrasive grain is exposed.
> Since there is nothing in the hand grinding process that controls depth of
> cut, the abrasive is free to cut deeply. A closed coat paper is coated so
> the abrasive will not cut as deeply. You will get the same effect by going
> to a finer open coat abrasive.
>
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> One thing that I have wanted to try is a good, closed coat, wet dry 60
> or 80 grit paper that is designed for sanding metal. The theory goes
> that the Norton 3x is fast, but is fracturing the edge because it is
> an open coat paper, which leaves large sections of the edge
> unsupported as you are grinding. You can buy that at auto paint
> stores, but I haven't taken the time to go get some. All the places
> online that I have seen it only sell giant packs.
The finer open coat abrasives are too slow. Have you tried grinding
the primary bevel with a course, closed coat abrasive? Does it work
well?
Mark
On 9 Feb, 19:01, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
> * Tormek - pricey (=A3280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
> keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
> Rgds all,
> graham.
You will be amazed how quickly a Tormek will remove metal. I use
nothing else for chisels and plane blades.
On Feb 11, 1:31 pm, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
> > * 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
> > works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
> > There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
> > found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
> > the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
> > paper is curving up at the edges.
>
> Interesting. Could it have been that you position your blade in the
> middle thus wearing the abrasive more there, and then any deviation from
> this position will expose one edge or the other to relatively fresh grit?
I was using a fresh belt and moving the blade back and forth. I don't
think this was related to abrasive wear, but it could have certainly
been related to lack of technique. The belt is not tight against the
platen, so that could have been the problem as Prometheus pointed
out. The belt sander is really fast and mine is pretty loud, so I
found it a little intimidating. Keep in mind that you can put your
own custom platen on the sander if you want a hollow grind or if you
want to try to make a slight high spot. I suspect that if I had tried
all these things, then my $100 Ryobi sander, which is very similar to
the Delta, would have work fine.
> ? With a 1", you can correct for this
My theory here is that with a 1" belt and a 2" blade, you can put the
belt in the middle of the blade and grind away more material in the
middle of the blade to compensate for not removing material at the
edges.
> > by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
> > is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt.
>
> one of the attractions for me was the ability to do the whole blade in
> one go and not have to carefully feed it across a narrower grinding edge.
Yes, that was my thinking as well and is why I got a 4" instead of a
1" belt sander. I haven't tried a 1", so I can't compare.
The main thing to keep in mind with the belt sanders (and possibly the
grinders) is that using those tools is a pretty "rough" operation.
Basically you are just trying to get the bevel close and then clean it
up by hand. One reason I have been investigating hand grinding
techniques is because you can put the blade in a honing guide and get
a more accurate bevel. That seems to be true for me, it is just
slower than the power tools. That said, the Robert Sorby belt sander
that you provided a link too looks really good. If it were available
in the US, I would definitely consider it.
On other thing I forgot to mention is that you could look into a hand
crank grinder. There are many pretty many for sale on EBay. There
used to be a company called Prairie Tool that made them, but I am
pretty sure they are out of business. You might also be able to make
a grinder. Lee Valley sells mandrels for this purpose.
>
> > In my opinion, grinding accurately and quickly without destroying the
> > edge is one of the most difficult parts of sharpening.
>
> In my price range, for sure!
If you are really trying to save money, I'd really look into a course
silicon carbide bench stone and give that a shot. No matter what you
try, I think it is important to just stick with that method until you
learn to be proficient at it. (I wish I could follow my own advice.)
Mark
"graham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here's my current take on my options, and I'd appreciate knowing where
> my uninformed, theory-no-practice opinions are off the mark from people
> who actually use these techniques!
>
> * Tormek - pricey (£280), Way too much money.
> Jet do a cheaper (£190) Still way too much money.
> * 8 inch dry bench grinder - fills me with dread of overheating the tool
> steel (though I'm sure it'll be fast!); pretty cheap even though better
> stones and decent tool rest would ratchet up the price a bit;
Every shop needs a good bench grinder. Toss the junk wheels that come with
the cheap chineese import and get two wheels a fine and a medium.
Now get yourself a wheel dresser.
The machine comes with a tool rest, and you can make a bevel guice from
wood.
With the bench grinder you are knocking down the bulk of the work, not
creating the edge. After you get close on the face of the wheel you can
cheat a little and side wheel some of the kollow grind out of the blade.
The closer you get to a sharp edge, the quicker the edge will heat up.
Since you know this, you give the blade less time and pressure as you get
closer. Dip in water often. It is really not that tough to do. If you are
worried about it buy some cold rolled steel in the approxamate size of your
chisels and practice with that.
In the US, you can set yourself up the way I described for about $160,
cheaper if you can buy a used machine. Don't skinp on the wheels.
Let me point out that in every machine shop the machinists quickly learn to
sharpen their drill bits by hand on bench grinders, and that tool steel is
not much different than your chisel.
Once you are almost there consider the diamond wetstones that are out there.
They are now cheaper than ever and they do not tend to get concave like
regular stones. They will quickly take the blade to the correct geometry
for the final keen edge to be given so you can go back to shaping the wood.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Once you are almost there consider the diamond wetstones that are out
> there.
> They are now cheaper than ever and they do not tend to get concave like
> regular stones. They will quickly take the blade to the correct geometry
> for the final keen edge to be given so you can go back to shaping the
> wood.
> Roger Shoaf
Do you know how durable diamond stones are generally? I had a very concave
50+ yr. old sharpening stone from my Dad, out of sentiment more than need I
went to great lengths to flattened it.....In the process I seem to have
removed the diamond particles from a coarse diamond stone....I also did a
number on a 10inch sanding disk and 4inch sanding belt etc.....Obviously the
old stone now probably 1/2 original (when new) thickness "wins" on durable
except for the former concave part...Dad mostly used it for decades to do
his pocket knife..........Also is there any way to determine if a "old"
stone is a water stone or a oil stone? He generally used oil. Or what grit a
old stone might be? Rod
Prometheus wrote:
> That's a little pessimistic, CW. Most of the guys I know can do it,
> even when there is a sharpening rig right at hand that makes it a
> somewhat less important skill.
>
>
When I started in a machine shop I got probably close to 100# of dull
bits to sharpen. My instructions were to come get the boss when I felt
confident about that part. 3-4 hours later he handed me a bushel or so
of mixed nuts and machine screws to sort.
Ahhh ... those were the days! ;-)
Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com
graham wrote:
> Folks,
> I'm fed up of spending ages at the bench stones shaping the primary
> bevel of my chisels & plane irons. However, I'm not in the league of
> never wanting to sharpen a chisel again (very enjoyable thread that) I'm
> just looking to speed things up.
> For context, my approach to sharpening is to keep re-honing the
> secondary bevel until it's worked its way too far up the blade, then
> grind the primary back down again - my reasoning is that this makes for
> quick resharpening, at the expense of less frequent but more tiresome
> re-creation of the primary bevel. Also every so often I nick a blade and
> then it takes forever on my "coarse" 250 grit waterstone.
> So time for some power assistance - and the usual set of dilemmas...
>
> Ideally I'd like it to be quick, run cool with no chance of damaging the
> steel, but also to cut aggressively enough that I can change the primary
> angle of a beefy chisel without sellotaping it to the tool rest and
> going back every hour to check on progress. Oh, and repeatable. And
> preferably not a hollow grind (though I dont suppose it really makes a
> huge difference). For the real edge I'm happy with my waterstones.
>
> When I say quick I'm thinking maybe re-form the primary bevel on a LN
> plane iron in a minute or so? Maybe create a new bevel on a 1/4 inch
> thick blade in a few minutes?
>
> Here's my current take on my options, and I'd appreciate knowing where
> my uninformed, theory-no-practice opinions are off the mark from people
> who actually use these techniques!
>
> * Tormek - pricey (£280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
> keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
> Jet do a cheaper (£190) copy of the tormek, it's got a go-faster knob,
> but really the same probably applies as to the tormek;
> * Makita horizontal grinder - I read SteveK's posts from some time ago
> describing clogging and uneven wear; I'm also wary of uneven grind
> depending on distance along radius; and anyway, I can't get this grinder
> in the UK :( Though there are some cheaper imitations with what look
> like inferior tool rests;
> * 8 inch dry bench grinder - fills me with dread of overheating the tool
> steel (though I'm sure it'll be fast!); pretty cheap even though better
> stones and decent tool rest would ratchet up the price a bit;
> * belt sander - 4" belt/disc sanders seem to be around £100, or £50 for
> the cheapest (& flimsiest?), so not expensive. I'd have to make a crude
> jig as the commercial ones I've seen only fit vertical wheel grinders.
> Not sure about heating of the blade - I see Sorby make one
> http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm for around £240 with a little
> 2" belt - too pricey but perhaps indicative of a belt sander being the
> way to go?
> * Learn how to use those bench stones fool! - maybe it's just me, but
> recovering from a nicked blade would take several tens of minutes with
> my 250 waterstone.
>
> Having laid that out I guess I'm edging towards the belt sander. Before
> I just get on with it anything I've missed?
>
> Rgds all,
> graham.
I use both. A white aluminum oxide wheel which causes much less heating,
and a 1 inch belt sander with a blue zirconia belt. I have a block glued
to the tilting table and several angle blocks to set the angle quickly.
The belt sander is all I use for sharpening turning tools. For finishing
the edge on plane blades and such, I use the scary-sharp method.
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
And you thought space was warped....
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
> * 60 grit Norton 3x on glass -- This is a hand method that is really
> fast. You can grind the primary bevel in about 60 seconds. However,
> there are two draw backs. The blade becomes magnetized, which is
> probably minor, but definitely odd.
*snip*
So that's how that happened! I thought it odd that the chisel was
magnetized, but wasn't sure how it got that way.
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
[email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 9, 7:10 pm, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:01:48 +0000, graham <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
<snip>
> I'm no expert, but here's a summary of some of the methods I've tried
> recently:
<snip - lots of useful thoughts and links, thanks>
> * 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
> works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
> There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
> found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
> the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
> paper is curving up at the edges.
Interesting. Could it have been that you position your blade in the
middle thus wearing the abrasive more there, and then any deviation from
this position will expose one edge or the other to relatively fresh grit?
? With a 1", you can correct for this
> by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
> is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt.
one of the attractions for me was the ability to do the whole blade in
one go and not have to carefully feed it across a narrower grinding edge.
> In my opinion, grinding accurately and quickly without destroying the
> edge is one of the most difficult parts of sharpening.
In my price range, for sure!
CW wrote:
<snip - re. open & closed grit trade-offs>
> The fastest way to regrind a bevel (in
> the home shop) is to get yourself a grinder with goods wheels and learn how
> to use it.
so what would constitute "good wheels" (colours seem to get bandied
about, but presumably there could be lots of different wheels that
happen to be white, or pink or whatever)?
and what do you consider to be the essential techniques one should
acquire in learning how to use it?
Also, would anyone care to comment on the low (half) speed grinders?
I've read somewhere that they're pointless because the "correct" speed
for the abrasive is that provided by the higher rpm. I find that hard to
believe because (i) cutting speed is surely a compromise between time
and edge heating/damage, and that will vary according to the material
being cut; (ii) a slower cutting speed must be cooler - bench stones run
very cool!
> If you realy want quick with a good surface finish, get yourself
> a surface grinder. A small one should only set you back about $10000.00.
> It'll do the backs too.
:)
>
> "Mark Wells" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> The finer open coat abrasives are too slow. Have you tried grinding
>> the primary bevel with a course, closed coat abrasive? Does it work
>> well?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
>
Limey Lurker wrote:
> On 9 Feb, 19:01, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>> * Tormek - pricey (£280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
>> keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
>> Rgds all,
>> graham.
>
> You will be amazed how quickly a Tormek will remove metal. I use
> nothing else for chisels and plane blades.
>
>
Amazement on standby (though I find the cost of the thing pretty
amazing:)).... could you give me some idea of how long would it take
to, say, reshape the primary bevel from 25 to 30 degrees on a 1/4 inch
thick chisel?
rgds,
graham.
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:54:19 -0800, "Rod & Betty Jo"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Once you are almost there consider the diamond wetstones that are out
>> there.
>> They are now cheaper than ever and they do not tend to get concave like
>> regular stones. They will quickly take the blade to the correct geometry
>> for the final keen edge to be given so you can go back to shaping the
>> wood.
>> Roger Shoaf
>
>
>Do you know how durable diamond stones are generally? I had a very concave
>50+ yr. old sharpening stone from my Dad, out of sentiment more than need I
>went to great lengths to flattened it.....In the process I seem to have
>removed the diamond particles from a coarse diamond stone
Are you sure that you "removed the diamond particles"? Diamond stones
go through a "wearing in" process.
>....I also did a
>number on a 10inch sanding disk and 4inch sanding belt etc.....Obviously the
>old stone now probably 1/2 original (when new) thickness "wins" on durable
>except for the former concave part...Dad mostly used it for decades to do
>his pocket knife..........Also is there any way to determine if a "old"
>stone is a water stone or a oil stone? He generally used oil. Or what grit a
>old stone might be?
If it's an old stone and not from Japan or that vicinity then it's
almost certainly an oilstone, might be an Arkansas stone or a
Carborundum synthetic. Arkansas doesn't have a "grit" per se, it
comes Washita, soft, hard, surgical hard in order of fineness. Can't
really tell Washita, soft, or hard from looking at them, surgical hard
will usually be black or translucent.
On 10 Feb 2007 04:31:06 -0800, "Mark Wells" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Feb 10, 3:36 am, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 9 Feb 2007 19:32:20 -0800, "[email protected]"
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >* 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
>> >works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
>> >There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
>> >found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
>> >the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
>> >paper is curving up at the edges. With a 1", you can correct for this
>> >by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
>> >is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt. With either
>> >choice, you have to build your own tool rest, which can be kind of a
>> >pain. More details here: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
>> >grinding.html
>>
>> Out of curiousity, does your 4" belt sander tension the paper in the
>> middle, or does it slide over a supporting plate?
>>
>> I ask because my sander at home has a metal plate under the belt, and
>> I've never had an issue- but the ones at work merely stretch the belt
>> over two wheels (the most common type, from what I've seen), and they
>> behave exactly as you've described.
>
>My sander stretches the belt between two wheels. I didn't even
>realize there were other types of tension mechanisms available. What
>kind of sander do you have?
It's a Delta 4" belt / 6" disc combo. I don't want to mislead you,
either- it does stretch the belt with a wheel on either side, it's
just that the entire length and width of the belt is pulled taut
against a steel plate, and it seems to do a very good job of keeping
the paper flat- and also manages to support the edges of the belt, so
they tend to die quietly of old age, rather than dramtically flying
apart because the edge of the belt got nicked.
This is the one I've got:
http://www.amazon.com/Delta-31-460-Belt-Disc-Sander/dp/B000022366
Which I'm a little surprised to see reviewed so poorly, but maybe I
just got a really good one. If you need something larger, they have a
model Delta 31-695 that has a 6" belt and 9" disc on a stand that
looks to be similar in design.
>It's good to hear that somebody else had the same problem and it's not
>just my technique.
>
>Mark
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:01:48 +0000, graham <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Folks,
SNIP
>Here's my current take on my options, and I'd appreciate knowing where
>my uninformed, theory-no-practice opinions are off the mark from people
>who actually use these techniques!
>
>* Tormek - pricey (£280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
>keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
>Jet do a cheaper (£190) copy of the tormek, it's got a go-faster knob,
>but really the same probably applies as to the tormek;
>* Makita horizontal grinder - I read SteveK's posts from some time ago
>describing clogging and uneven wear; I'm also wary of uneven grind
>depending on distance along radius; and anyway, I can't get this grinder
>in the UK :( Though there are some cheaper imitations with what look
>like inferior tool rests;
>* 8 inch dry bench grinder - fills me with dread of overheating the tool
>steel (though I'm sure it'll be fast!); pretty cheap even though better
>stones and decent tool rest would ratchet up the price a bit;
>* belt sander - 4" belt/disc sanders seem to be around £100, or £50 for
>the cheapest (& flimsiest?), so not expensive. I'd have to make a crude
>jig as the commercial ones I've seen only fit vertical wheel grinders.
>Not sure about heating of the blade - I see Sorby make one
>http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm for around £240 with a little
>2" belt - too pricey but perhaps indicative of a belt sander being the
>way to go?
>* Learn how to use those bench stones fool! - maybe it's just me, but
>recovering from a nicked blade would take several tens of minutes with
>my 250 waterstone.
>
>Having laid that out I guess I'm edging towards the belt sander. Before
>I just get on with it anything I've missed?
>
>Rgds all,
>graham.
Why not the Scary Sharp method but only the real low grits. 80 grit
sandpaper glued to a flat surface makes pretty quick work of a plane
blade. Maybe not 1 minute, but not 10 either. I personally take it
down a few more grits on sandpaper (100, 150) and then on to the
waterstones and the secondary bevel. I do use a $12 sharpening jig.
Someday I will learn to use my 8" 1750 RPM grinder for this though ;-)
Dave Hall
The courser closed coat are not going to be any faster.
Abrasive grains are pointed. The deeper these points penetrate, the larger
the groove it cuts. A closed coating will reduce the depth of penetration
thus acting like a finer grain size. With the courser grit closed coat
though, due to the wider spacing of the grains, the finish wil be worse. The
only advantage to the closed coat is that it holds the grains tighter so
your abrasive lasts longer. Everything is a comprimize. If you want speed
(with your current system), you are going to get a lousy finish. What time
yu saved with the courser grits is going to be cancelled out by the amount
of time you spend with finer grits. The fastest way to regrind a bevel (in
the home shop) is to get yourself a grinder with goods wheels and learn how
to use it. If you realy want quick with a good surface finish, get yourself
a surface grinder. A small one should only set you back about $10000.00.
It'll do the backs too.
"Mark Wells" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The finer open coat abrasives are too slow. Have you tried grinding
> the primary bevel with a course, closed coat abrasive? Does it work
> well?
>
> Mark
>
The edge is not actually fracturing. The large abrasive grains are cutting
grooves. With an open coat paper, most of the abrasive grain is exposed.
Since there is nothing in the hand grinding process that controls depth of
cut, the abrasive is free to cut deeply. A closed coat paper is coated so
the abrasive will not cut as deeply. You will get the same effect by going
to a finer open coat abrasive.
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
One thing that I have wanted to try is a good, closed coat, wet dry 60
or 80 grit paper that is designed for sanding metal. The theory goes
that the Norton 3x is fast, but is fracturing the edge because it is
an open coat paper, which leaves large sections of the edge
unsupported as you are grinding. You can buy that at auto paint
stores, but I haven't taken the time to go get some. All the places
online that I have seen it only sell giant packs.
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:18:28 +0000, graham <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Limey Lurker wrote:
>> On 9 Feb, 19:01, graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> * Tormek - pricey (£280), and I believe it's geared towards creating a
>>> keen edge as opposed to removing material quickly;
>>> Rgds all,
>>> graham.
>>
>> You will be amazed how quickly a Tormek will remove metal. I use
>> nothing else for chisels and plane blades.
>
>Amazement on standby (though I find the cost of the thing pretty
>amazing:)).... could you give me some idea of how long would it take
>to, say, reshape the primary bevel from 25 to 30 degrees on a 1/4 inch
>thick chisel?
I think you could buy a whole second set of chisels and have both
angles all the time for less. I have two 1/4" chisels that I use most
often and have one at 25 and one at 30.
Mostly though I just let one get dull ;)
-Leuf
On 9 Feb 2007 19:32:20 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>* 4" belt sander - I bought the Ryobi 4" belt sander/disk combo. It
>works okay, but I actually think a 1" belt sander would work better.
>There are finer grits available for the 1". Also, with a 2" blade, I
>found that the corners of the blade got ground down more quickly than
>the center. I didn't investigate a lot, but it might be that the
>paper is curving up at the edges. With a 1", you can correct for this
>by grinding more in the middle of the blade than the outside, but it
>is very difficult to correct for that with a 4" belt. With either
>choice, you have to build your own tool rest, which can be kind of a
>pain. More details here: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
>grinding.html
Out of curiousity, does your 4" belt sander tension the paper in the
middle, or does it slide over a supporting plate?
I ask because my sander at home has a metal plate under the belt, and
I've never had an issue- but the ones at work merely stretch the belt
over two wheels (the most common type, from what I've seen), and they
behave exactly as you've described.
In article <[email protected]>,
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> OK, 1 in 24. The shop that I work in now, ther is one other besides me that
> can grind a tool by hand. The last shop, I was the only one. I have worked
> in 100 man shops around here and you could count on one hand the number of
> people that could grind there own tools.
So twist drills have various tip angles for various materials; Wood,
non-ferrous metals, hardened steel, whatever. Someone worked out that
the angles (118 degrees, for example) were the "best" in some sense.
Efficiency of drilling, drill life, clean cut, I dunno.
My question is, just for grins, would you sharpen a bunch of drills for
us and measure the variance in grinding angle among them? I'm guessing
you'd get a bell curve around the optimum. Have one of your workmates
who "can't" do it by hand do a bunch and then measure the variance of
his batch. Ugh, sloppy, right? But, how close would a reasonably
competent machine-shop dude come to "good-enough"?
--
"Keep your ass behind you."
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:01:48 +0000, graham <[email protected]>
wrote:
>* belt sander - 4" belt/disc sanders seem to be around £100, or £50 for
>the cheapest (& flimsiest?), so not expensive. I'd have to make a crude
>jig as the commercial ones I've seen only fit vertical wheel grinders.
>Not sure about heating of the blade - I see Sorby make one
>http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm for around £240 with a little
>2" belt - too pricey but perhaps indicative of a belt sander being the
>way to go?
>Having laid that out I guess I'm edging towards the belt sander. Before
>I just get on with it anything I've missed?
Belt sander should work fine for what you're contemplating- If you
look around a bit, I know at least the Delta belt/disc combos come
with a table that can be angled fairly precisely. While that isn't a
"jig" per se, it would work fine to set the angle you need.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-31-460-Belt-Disc-Sander/dp/B000022366
>
> Which I'm a little surprised to see reviewed so poorly, but maybe I
> just got a really good one.
I've got the same sander. Never a problem.
OK, 1 in 24. The shop that I work in now, ther is one other besides me that
can grind a tool by hand. The last shop, I was the only one. I have worked
in 100 man shops around here and you could count on one hand the number of
people that could grind there own tools.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:54:23 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> That's a little pessimistic, CW. Most of the guys I know can do it,
> even when there is a sharpening rig right at hand that makes it a
> somewhat less important skill.
>
>
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:54:23 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Let me point out that in every machine shop the machinists quickly learn
>to
>> sharpen their drill bits by hand on bench grinders, and that tool steel is
>> not much different than your chisel.
>
>Used to be. Now, about 1 in 25 can do this. Forget about a lathe tool, they
>wouldn't know where to begin.
That's a little pessimistic, CW. Most of the guys I know can do it,
even when there is a sharpening rig right at hand that makes it a
somewhat less important skill.
graham <[email protected]> writes:
> * Makita horizontal grinder - I read SteveK's posts from some time ago
> describing clogging and uneven wear; I'm also wary of uneven grind
> depending on distance along radius; and anyway, I can't get this
> grinder in the UK :( Though there are some cheaper imitations with
> what look like inferior tool rests;
I have a second-hand Makita, and a budget Woodcraft. The Makita was
cheaper (gloat) but I had to replace the bearings. The Woodcraft is
still quieter. But you are right - the toolrest and water drip on the
Woodcraft is crap.
But the Makita toolrest can use some work as well. It does cut fast,
so you do need to spend some time on making repeatable controlled
angles.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Let me point out that in every machine shop the machinists quickly learn
to
> sharpen their drill bits by hand on bench grinders, and that tool steel is
> not much different than your chisel.
Used to be. Now, about 1 in 25 can do this. Forget about a lathe tool, they
wouldn't know where to begin.