I'm building an activity table for my son that stands about 20" high so he can
play with his wooden trains on it. I'm sure there are a million different ways
to build something so simple, but I'm following a set of plans I found on the
web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs. Having never
used biscuits before, I was intrigued and decided to give it a shot by
borrowing a friend's buiscuit joiner. I finished it over the weekend and it
seems to have worked just fine, but I'm wondering if it was really worth the
trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the joints? Is
there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
Brian wrote:
> >
> > Biscuits make alignment easier.
>
> I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do biscuits
> make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part, and
> ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16" of
> play when dealing with biscuits.
>
> What am I missing or doing wrong?
It sounds like you own a Roybi.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Biscuits provide shear resistance, and, especially with modern glues can be
used as a substitute for a tenon. Where they really stand out is when
working with plywood. Just finished a Normesque set of shelves for book
boxes and medium-term storage, using only biscuits and glue along with good
loading in joints.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ksu93dlv" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > I found on the
> > web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs.
>
> > I'm wondering if it was really worth the
> > trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the
> joints? Is
> > there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
>
> Biscuits make alignment easier. If you are gluing end grain, it makes the
> joint stronger also, by giving a glued surface on the "side" grain inside
> the cut out.
>
> Woodworking did well for centuries without them, but they can make some
jobs
> easier and faster.
> Ed
>
>
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:13:19 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Probably the best joint for attaching an apron to a table leg is the
>the classic mortise and tenon joint. .
I agree. If "traditional" joinery is called for in the piece.
>Bicuits do not have a lot of
>strength, but are very good for alignment.
BS! <G> I've used biscuits here with excellent success, as well as
dowels, and pocket screws through a 45 degree brace behind the aprons.
They're all STRONG if done right.
Barry
"Roland Hart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
snip " Can you use bisquits for 1/2" material?"
Roland,
You sure can. . . but you must first adjust the base or sled of the
tool to center on the 1/2" material.
Rob
Whether it is biscuits, dowels, spines, mortise and tenons, dovetails,
dado's, etc. A properly made, glued, and clamped joint is almost always a
better, stronger, and longer lasting joint then what you will be able to
achieve with screws or nails. Take a trip to your nearest furniture store
and see how many nails, screws or staples you can find in their better grade
dining room furniture. To save you the trouble, you won't find any even
though, with the working hypothesis that time is money, they are a faster
way to fasten two pieces of wood together for the maker. There is a reason
there and it isn't because the stock holders don't want to make more money
per unit..
I guess that that would make the rule, don't use screws or nails if you can
use a traditional joint.
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Ksu93dlv" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm building an activity table for my son that stands about 20" high so he
can
> play with his wooden trains on it. I'm sure there are a million different
ways
> to build something so simple, but I'm following a set of plans I found on
the
> web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs. Having
never
> used biscuits before, I was intrigued and decided to give it a shot by
> borrowing a friend's buiscuit joiner. I finished it over the weekend and
it
> seems to have worked just fine, but I'm wondering if it was really worth
the
> trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the
joints? Is
> there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
Nobody's yet mentioned biscuit slot orientation whe it comes
to edge-on panel glueups---drop the slot location slightly
lower than center to preclude "telegraphing" the biscuit's
location. Wait a couple days before final sanding the surface.
Roger
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Dan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Wed 31 Dec 2003 02:39:05p, [email protected] (g) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Read this article:
> >
> > http://www.netexperts.cc/~lambertm/Wood/biscuit.pdf
> >
>
> Great article! That one's in my woodworking folder. :-)
>
> I'll also add two things:
> 1. SWMBO wanted a shelf in the nightstand door, placed at the right height
> so she could reach it easily from the bed. We found the height and I marked
> a straight line, put the shelf on it and marked for three biscuits. Removed
> the shelf, cut the slots in the shelf board, flattened the fence, carefully
> cut the slots in the door. Glued fence, clamped with caul. Everything
> aligned perfect. Rock solid joint, no screws. Love that biscuit cutter.
>
> 2. I remember a thread here from about a year or so ago where somebody was
> asking how he got dips in the table top, and they all seemed to be right
> where the biscuits were. Couldn't prove it conclusively but it looked like
> he'd sanded the top too soon after glueing. I think he sanded about twelve
> hours after the glueup and the biscuits were still swollen from the glue.
> The next day they returned to normal size, and since the table top was flat
> before they shrank, it caused the dips. I usually wait at least 24 hours
> before finishing those panels but now I have more incentive. :-)
>
> Dan
On Wed 31 Dec 2003 02:39:05p, [email protected] (g) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Read this article:
>
> http://www.netexperts.cc/~lambertm/Wood/biscuit.pdf
>
Great article! That one's in my woodworking folder. :-)
I'll also add two things:
1. SWMBO wanted a shelf in the nightstand door, placed at the right height
so she could reach it easily from the bed. We found the height and I marked
a straight line, put the shelf on it and marked for three biscuits. Removed
the shelf, cut the slots in the shelf board, flattened the fence, carefully
cut the slots in the door. Glued fence, clamped with caul. Everything
aligned perfect. Rock solid joint, no screws. Love that biscuit cutter.
2. I remember a thread here from about a year or so ago where somebody was
asking how he got dips in the table top, and they all seemed to be right
where the biscuits were. Couldn't prove it conclusively but it looked like
he'd sanded the top too soon after glueing. I think he sanded about twelve
hours after the glueup and the biscuits were still swollen from the glue.
The next day they returned to normal size, and since the table top was flat
before they shrank, it caused the dips. I usually wait at least 24 hours
before finishing those panels but now I have more incentive. :-)
Dan
I like the idea of biscuits if you're trying to make the joinery
'hidden' and not so obvious (as a screw will do, even if you're
plugging the holes). I had a chance to use mine today to fix a stair
that had split.
As far as the 'play', I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, so
long as you make sure you're straight & aligned before you let the
glue set...
>Probably the best joint for attaching an apron to a table leg is the
classic mortise and tenon joint. It is truly difficult to make a
stronger, more reliable joint that this. Bicuits do not have a lot of
strength, but are very good for alignment.
I have built over $1,000,000 worth of tables using biscuits in the apron to
leg joint. I offer my customers a lifetime warranty on my work, I have yet
had to repair this joint for a customer.
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:08:50 -0800, "Brian" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16" of
>play when dealing with biscuits.
>
>What am I missing or doing wrong?
>
>Brian.
>
The slots cut by my machine normally have play side to side, as in the
length of the biscuit, but no movement in the thickness direction.
That's a plus, as the actual centering of the tool can be a tad off
when cutting the slot, but the joint will match (or have the desired
reveal) on the other plane, as long as the tool is referenced off the
correct faces of the parts.
Am I helping or talking in circles? Sometimes I can't tell. <G>
Barry
On 29 Dec 2003 17:42:51 GMT, [email protected] (Ksu93dlv)
wrote:
>Is
>there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
My personal rule is anytime I can use them to save time, and a
traditional woodworking joint is unnecessary.
If I'm making a traditional piece, I pass on the biscuits, and use
whatever "real" joint would be appropriate. I find biscuits strong,
fast, durable, and easy to use. I just finished some ash radiator
covers and between biscuits and pocket screws, they went together
incredibly fast.
Barry
Sorry, can't really help you as I've not used biscuits that often for wide
glue-ups.
My gut feeling would be that in stock that thin you would run the risk of
the biscuits "telegraphing" on the surface of the stock.
That said, I've done plenty of glue-ups of 1/2", and much thinner stock,
with NO biscuits and never had a problem. You do need to be careful about
thin stock bowing under clamp pressure, so use cauls, duct taped bricks, or
other heavy objects (my dedicated mortiser gets called into play on large
panel glue-ups quite frequently) to keep your panel straight.
It sometimes helps, with thin material, to do the glue up in stages, but you
will still needs cauls, etc., IME.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/29/03
"Roland Hart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do you have any tips on gluing up 1/2" red oak to a width of 20" wide. I
was
> thinking of using bisquits for this. Can you use bisquits for 1/2"
material?
> The panel is for the center of mission style armoir door FYI.
>
> Thanks,
> Roland
>
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I also avoid biscuit joinery, but often use it in lieu of splines on
miter
> > joints, where it appears to be just as effective as splines, and much
> > quicker. I've had a 557 for a while, but finally tried biscuits on a
> three
> > board wide shelf glue-up the other day just to see what the fuss was
> about.
> > I don't know whether it was the biscuits, or the Bessey clamps, or a
> > combination thereof, but it was one of the flattest, easiest, hassle
free
> > glue-ups I've ever done. So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits
and
> > alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
> > biscuits, not parallel to it.
> >
> > --
> > www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 12/29/03
> >
> >
> > "Brian" wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > Biscuits make alignment easier.
> > >
> > > I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do
biscuits
> > > make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part,
and
> > > ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16"
> of
> > > play when dealing with biscuits.
> > >
> > > What am I missing or doing wrong?
> >
> >
>
>
"Ksu93dlv" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I found on the
> web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs.
> I'm wondering if it was really worth the
> trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the
joints? Is
> there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
Biscuits make alignment easier. If you are gluing end grain, it makes the
joint stronger also, by giving a glued surface on the "side" grain inside
the cut out.
Woodworking did well for centuries without them, but they can make some jobs
easier and faster.
Ed
Roland,
I like to put an 1/8" slot cutter in the router and cut slots along the
boards. Cut some 1/8" spline stock and glue in. If the strength of the
spline isn't really critical I use 1/8" hardboard. This method really makes
for accurate alignment. I've even glued plywood end to end this way. The
base of the router runs right along the stock. If the board or plywood has a
slight bow, the router stays right on the surface.
Rich
"Roland Hart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do you have any tips on gluing up 1/2" red oak to a width of 20" wide. I
was
> thinking of using bisquits for this. Can you use bisquits for 1/2"
material?
> The panel is for the center of mission style armoir door FYI.
>
> Thanks,
> Roland
>
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I also avoid biscuit joinery, but often use it in lieu of splines on
miter
> > joints, where it appears to be just as effective as splines, and much
> > quicker. I've had a 557 for a while, but finally tried biscuits on a
> three
> > board wide shelf glue-up the other day just to see what the fuss was
> about.
> > I don't know whether it was the biscuits, or the Bessey clamps, or a
> > combination thereof, but it was one of the flattest, easiest, hassle
free
> > glue-ups I've ever done. So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits
and
> > alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
> > biscuits, not parallel to it.
> >
> > --
> > www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 12/29/03
> >
> >
> > "Brian" wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > Biscuits make alignment easier.
> > >
> > > I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do
biscuits
> > > make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part,
and
> > > ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16"
> of
> > > play when dealing with biscuits.
> > >
> > > What am I missing or doing wrong?
> >
> >
>
>
On 29 Dec 2003 17:42:51 GMT, [email protected] (Ksu93dlv)
wrote:
>I'm building an activity table for my son that stands about 20" high so he can
>play with his wooden trains on it. I'm sure there are a million different ways
>to build something so simple, but I'm following a set of plans I found on the
>web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs. Having never
>used biscuits before, I was intrigued and decided to give it a shot by
>borrowing a friend's buiscuit joiner. I finished it over the weekend and it
>seems to have worked just fine, but I'm wondering if it was really worth the
>trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the joints? Is
>there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
Edge joining is a natural point, I also use them in MDF. No real
proof, but for me they just seem to be stronger than a screwed joint
on MDF. I have a tendency not to use them when a screw would work
fine, but tend to use them over a mortise/tenon or dowel joint when
I'm working quicker.
Jeff
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:32:55 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits and
>alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
>biscuits, not parallel to it.
yep.
I also avoid biscuit joinery, but often use it in lieu of splines on miter
joints, where it appears to be just as effective as splines, and much
quicker. I've had a 557 for a while, but finally tried biscuits on a three
board wide shelf glue-up the other day just to see what the fuss was about.
I don't know whether it was the biscuits, or the Bessey clamps, or a
combination thereof, but it was one of the flattest, easiest, hassle free
glue-ups I've ever done. So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits and
alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
biscuits, not parallel to it.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/29/03
"Brian" wrote in message
> >
> > Biscuits make alignment easier.
>
> I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do biscuits
> make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part, and
> ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16" of
> play when dealing with biscuits.
>
> What am I missing or doing wrong?
On 29 Dec 2003 17:42:51 GMT, [email protected] (Ksu93dlv)
wrote:
>I'm building an activity table for my son that stands about 20" high so he can
>play with his wooden trains on it. I'm sure there are a million different ways
>to build something so simple, but I'm following a set of plans I found on the
>web that calls for #20 biscuits for the joints on the table legs. Having never
>used biscuits before, I was intrigued and decided to give it a shot by
>borrowing a friend's buiscuit joiner. I finished it over the weekend and it
>seems to have worked just fine, but I'm wondering if it was really worth the
>trouble. Would it have been just as good to use long screws for the joints? Is
>there a rule of thumb as to when it's appropriate to use biscuits?
Probably the best joint for attaching an apron to a table leg is the
the classic mortise and tenon joint. It is truly difficult to make a
stronger, more reliable joint that this. Bicuits do not have a lot of
strength, but are very good for alignment. It's the glue that gives
the holding power. Using screws to hold a joint--well, perhaps buying
furniture at BigLots is easier.
>
> Biscuits make alignment easier.
I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do biscuits
make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part, and
ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16" of
play when dealing with biscuits.
What am I missing or doing wrong?
Brian.
Do you have any tips on gluing up 1/2" red oak to a width of 20" wide. I was
thinking of using bisquits for this. Can you use bisquits for 1/2" material?
The panel is for the center of mission style armoir door FYI.
Thanks,
Roland
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I also avoid biscuit joinery, but often use it in lieu of splines on miter
> joints, where it appears to be just as effective as splines, and much
> quicker. I've had a 557 for a while, but finally tried biscuits on a
three
> board wide shelf glue-up the other day just to see what the fuss was
about.
> I don't know whether it was the biscuits, or the Bessey clamps, or a
> combination thereof, but it was one of the flattest, easiest, hassle free
> glue-ups I've ever done. So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits and
> alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
> biscuits, not parallel to it.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 12/29/03
>
>
> "Brian" wrote in message
> > >
> > > Biscuits make alignment easier.
> >
> > I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do biscuits
> > make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part, and
> > ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least 1/16"
of
> > play when dealing with biscuits.
> >
> > What am I missing or doing wrong?
>
>
Thanks
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sorry, can't really help you as I've not used biscuits that often for wide
> glue-ups.
>
> My gut feeling would be that in stock that thin you would run the risk of
> the biscuits "telegraphing" on the surface of the stock.
>
> That said, I've done plenty of glue-ups of 1/2", and much thinner stock,
> with NO biscuits and never had a problem. You do need to be careful about
> thin stock bowing under clamp pressure, so use cauls, duct taped bricks,
or
> other heavy objects (my dedicated mortiser gets called into play on large
> panel glue-ups quite frequently) to keep your panel straight.
>
> It sometimes helps, with thin material, to do the glue up in stages, but
you
> will still needs cauls, etc., IME.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 12/29/03
>
>
>
> "Roland Hart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Do you have any tips on gluing up 1/2" red oak to a width of 20" wide. I
> was
> > thinking of using bisquits for this. Can you use bisquits for 1/2"
> material?
> > The panel is for the center of mission style armoir door FYI.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I also avoid biscuit joinery, but often use it in lieu of splines on
> miter
> > > joints, where it appears to be just as effective as splines, and much
> > > quicker. I've had a 557 for a while, but finally tried biscuits on a
> > three
> > > board wide shelf glue-up the other day just to see what the fuss was
> > about.
> > > I don't know whether it was the biscuits, or the Bessey clamps, or a
> > > combination thereof, but it was one of the flattest, easiest, hassle
> free
> > > glue-ups I've ever done. So I'm thinking all this talk about biscuits
> and
> > > alignment is more about alignment perpendicular to the plane of the
> > > biscuits, not parallel to it.
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.e-woodshop.net
> > > Last update: 12/29/03
> > >
> > >
> > > "Brian" wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > Biscuits make alignment easier.
> > > >
> > > > I hear this from time to time, and don't really get it. How do
> biscuits
> > > > make alignment easier? I tend to avoid biscuits for the most part,
> and
> > > > ESPECIALLY where alignment is critical because there is at least
1/16"
> > of
> > > > play when dealing with biscuits.
> > > >
> > > > What am I missing or doing wrong?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>