best finish with polyurethane

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
>>> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about wiping
>>> down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they would not
>>> advise you getting water in it. Also, I have found that, unlike water
>>> based paints, this varnish does not raise the grain of wood. In fact, I
>>> have actually used it as a wood primer when I could not lay my hands on
>>> a solvent based one locally, in a hurry.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>
>> Typically you wipe down with an oil based product , paint thinner, so as
>> to not raise the grain and to remove any dust. Paint thinner or better
>> yet mineral spirits will evaporate relatively quickly and then you can
>> use what ever product you want.
>
> Agreed, except that in *UK* DIY 'mineral spirits' is White Spirit.
.3

Is that the stuff that turns thick and milky? I threw out half a gallon
because of that. The first quart I poured out of the gallon was clear as
was the rest of the container, a few months later it was useless. I
mistakenly got the Environmentally safe crap the last time I bought.

On 15 Aug, 00:45, "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane
> > with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle bru=
sh.
>
> =A0Try thinning out the stuff with a little Japan Oil. =A0Works good on a=
flat
> surface, to make it flow out any brush marks. =A0Either that, or a little
> thinner, but you will have to wait for it to set longer.
> --
> Jim in NC

"Japan Oil" ? - Mr Google's not helping me on this. I've been a long
time in DIY and I've never heard of it. Can you give a bit more info
please.

Rob

"john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote

> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane
> with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.

Try thinning out the stuff with a little Japan Oil. Works good on a flat
surface, to make it flow out any brush marks. Either that, or a little
thinner, but you will have to wait for it to set longer.
--
Jim in NC

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about wiping
> down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they would not
> advise you getting water in it. Also, I have found that, unlike water
> based paints, this varnish does not raise the grain of wood. In fact, I
> have actually used it as a wood primer when I could not lay my hands on a
> solvent based one locally, in a hurry.
>
> S
>

Typically you wipe down with an oil based product , paint thinner, so as to
not raise the grain and to remove any dust. Paint thinner or better yet
mineral spirits will evaporate relatively quickly and then you can use what
ever product you want.

On 14 Aug, 13:32, "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>
> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
> finish.
>
> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial bristles
> or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid them, since the
> ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles whilst using them.
>
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so what one
> is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy cloth type
> roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.

use aerosols?
Jim K

On 15/08/2010 00:22, Puckdropper wrote:
> "john hamilton"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>>
>> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
>> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
>> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>
> I've gotten good results with using paint pads. I cut up old shorts and
> folded the pieces over to make the pads.

Then you are well on the way to reinventing the french polish "rubber"
:-), which IME is the only way to get a really smooth finish on
anything. Traditionally used for shellac based finishes, but works well
with paint and varnish too.

>
> I've only tried this with the gloss poly, so as always test on scrap
> first and see how you like the results.
>
> Puckdropper

"john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.

I've gotten good results with using paint pads. I cut up old shorts and
folded the pieces over to make the pads.

I've only tried this with the gloss poly, so as always test on scrap
first and see how you like the results.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

stuart noble wrote:

> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.


I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Nova wrote:

> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could
> be
> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what
> product?
--------------------------
Years ago would clean brushes used with oil based material with
waterless had soap like Go-Jo, then finish with water.

Worked for me.

YMMV

Lew

Larry Jaques wrote:

<comments interspersed>

>
> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:39:07 -0400, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>stuart noble wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>>>hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
>>>that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>>
>>
>>I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
>>cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>
>
> Some of the new water-soluble oil paints are allowing that nowadays,
> Yack.

Interesting. I didn't know that they existed even in artists' paints.

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_miscible_oil_paint This is for
> artist oils, but I've seen it advertised for house paints, too, though
> not locally.
>

I tried "Googling" for an exterior and exterior water soluble oil paint
and couldn't find any reference.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"robgraham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 15 Aug, 00:45, "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> > I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane
>> > with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle
>> > brush.
>>
>> Try thinning out the stuff with a little Japan Oil. Works good on a
>> flat
>> surface, to make it flow out any brush marks. Either that, or a little
>> thinner, but you will have to wait for it to set longer.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> "Japan Oil" ? - Mr Google's not helping me on this. I've been a long
> time in DIY and I've never heard of it. Can you give a bit more info
> please.
>
> Rob

I wonder if he meant Japan Drier?
Grumbacher Japan Drier An oil painting medium that speeds drying, improves
flow, and increases gloss. Add directly to color in small amounts. Color
should not be thinned beyond a soft free brushing consistency. Adding too
much Japan drier to your oils can cause them to crack as they dry! More Info

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>>
>> Typically you want to clean oil based products out of a brush with paint
>> thinner and or mineral spirits. You can clean out that solvent with
>> water
>> and a cleaner that breaks down oil such as dish soap that cuts the grease
>> on your dishes.
>
> This is what I just said, except that you should wipe off the bulk of the
> paint on newspaper and keep the use of solvents to the minimum. You do
> not
> want to be using water last as this will take longer to dry, and speed the
> rusting of the metal bands and nails of many brushes.

You might want to hold the use of solvents to a minimum but after painting
all day long I don't want to spend 15 more minutes cleaning the brushes.

Additionally, I have never had a brush rust then again I buy the more
expensive brushes ..and a few of my brushes are not of this millenium.


>
> Incidentally, whilst finally drying, roll the brushes up in strips of
> newspaper, held on with rubber bands. That keeps all the hairs together
> for next time.

No need, at least with a good brush..


>
>>
>> When I work with oil bases stains I clean my hands afterwards with paint
>> thinner and then wash my hands with an automotive type hand cleaner, that
>> removes the paint thinner.
>
> There is always a temptation to do this, but you are damaging the
> protective
> surface of your skin and quite likely to become sensitised and be stuck
> with
> the dermatitis, discussed here recently.

Possibly but I suspect that paint or varnish on my hands for a much longer
period of time is worse. I normally have thinner on my hands for 10-15
seconds, that is all it takes. After painting 20-25 homes in the last 12
years and using this method of cleaning I have not had any problems. This
has been my practice for 30 or so years with stains. I try now to wear
synthetic gloves to speed clean up even more but you always get something on
you.

I use the purdy china bristle brushes with good results when using poly.
A pad works well too. . Your choice.
I wouldn't put anything over formica... The plastic laminate doesn't
take to many finishes. The bond needs to be chemical, not mechanical.

On 8/14/2010 8:32 AM, john hamilton wrote:
> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>
> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
> finish.
>
> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial bristles
> or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid them, since the
> ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles whilst using them.
>
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so what one
> is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy cloth type
> roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>
>

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
> You are one of the lucky ones. I last worked in a lab maybe 30 years ago,
> and I still can't touch greases or solvents without coming out in a rash.
> I'm allergic to the gloves too...

Perhaps, but I don't know any one that has had a problem doing the same....
I was not the first and I learned it from others.



>
> We are here to advise others: not to say what we have got away with and
> invite others to do the same.


Advising is what I have done... But if you are prone to be sensitive to the
product, common sence would tell you to use another method.

On 8/16/2010 9:09 AM, stuart noble wrote:

> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.

I was very surprised when I bought gloss paint for a garden bench - it
looked and smelled like standard oil-based paint, but the instructions
said to use water to wash the brushes. The coating lasted for 4 or 5
years, in an exposed location on the north coast of Scotland.

I don't remember the brand, but I bought it from B&Q.

On 14 Aug, 13:32, "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane wi=
th
> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>
> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to =
me
> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
> finish.
>
> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial brist=
les
> or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid them, since the
> ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles whilst using them.
>
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so what o=
ne
> is best to get please? =A0Also would a sponge roller or hairy cloth type
> roller be a better way to go? =A0Thanks for any advice.

Are you rubbing it down between coats? You can also flat off the final
coat with 120 grit paper.

Cheers
Richard

On 14/08/2010 17:48, Jim Weisgram wrote:
On 14/08/2010 17:48, Jim Weisgram wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:32:36 +0100, "john hamilton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
>> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>>
>> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
>> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
>> finish.
>>
>
> I'd try to thin with mineral spirits. And brush onto a test piece
> first. Most varnishes, poly or alkyd, need thinning out of the can.
>
> The matte finish means there is an additive that reduces the sheen. It
> is generally a very fine silica (think very fine sand). That's why you
> have to stir the satin or matte poly before applying, because the
> silica will settle to the bottom of the can. The matte effect happens
> when the fine particles at the surface of the poly scatter light
> bouncing off it.
>
> In short, that matte finish won't affect the brush marks one way or
> the other.
>
>>> Jim

> On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:32:36 +0100, "john hamilton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
>> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>>
>> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
>> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
>> finish.
>>
>
> I'd try to thin with mineral spirits. And brush onto a test piece
> first. Most varnishes, poly or alkyd, need thinning out of the can.
>
> The matte finish means there is an additive that reduces the sheen. It
> is generally a very fine silica (think very fine sand). That's why you
> have to stir the satin or matte poly before applying, because the
> silica will settle to the bottom of the can. The matte effect happens
> when the fine particles at the surface of the poly scatter light
> bouncing off it.
>
> In short, that matte finish won't affect the brush marks one way or
> the other.
>
>>> Jim

I apply it very sparingly with a rag. You can do several thin coats in
succession that way without waiting for the previous one to dry

Nova wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes
>> with hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only
>> indication that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I
>> suppose.
>
>
> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?

Just about any. What does soap do? It emulsifies oil.

BTW, cold water works too.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

john hamilton wrote:
> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough
> polyurethane with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best
> quality bristle brush.
> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising
> to me how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's
> a matt finish.
>
> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial
> bristles or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid
> them, since the ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles
> whilst using them.
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.

Faced with the situation you have, I would not apply any varnish to the
surface. (I have to say that I would not have done what you did.)

My thoughts would be to apply either furniture or car polish and re apply as
necessary. I cannot believe that any varnish will "grab hold" to the Formica
for more than a short while.

I could be mistaken and am willing to learn!

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote

> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap set
> of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book and
> stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent widths, and
> with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some of them have
> the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes
> with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost
> free.

I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?

Really?

I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and what
these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.

More information, please?
--
Jim in NC

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote

> I wonder if he meant Japan Drier?
> Grumbacher Japan Drier An oil painting medium that speeds drying, improves
> flow, and increases gloss. Add directly to color in small amounts. Color
> should not be thinned beyond a soft free brushing consistency. Adding too
> much Japan drier to your oils can cause them to crack as they dry! More
> Info

Yep.

"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap set
>> of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book and
>> stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent widths, and
>> with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some of them have
>> the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes
>> with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost
>> free.
>
> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
> with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>
> Really?

No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out oil
based finishes.


And concerning artificial brushes, different strokes for different fokes. I
never use natural brissle brushes and I would be willing to compare finish
results to what would be considered a good spray finish. Its all about
knowing what you are doing. Contrairy to popular belief I get glass smooth
with General Finishes oil based finishes and the recomended "foam brushes",
a quality foam brush however, I use Wooster foam brushes.

On 15/08/2010 00:39, Clot wrote:
> john hamilton wrote:
>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough
>> polyurethane with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best
>> quality bristle brush.
>> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising
>> to me how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's
>> a matt finish.
>>
>> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial
>> bristles or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid
>> them, since the ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles
>> whilst using them.
>> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
>> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
>> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>
> Faced with the situation you have, I would not apply any varnish to the
> surface. (I have to say that I would not have done what you did.)
>
> My thoughts would be to apply either furniture or car polish and re apply as
> necessary. I cannot believe that any varnish will "grab hold" to the Formica
> for more than a short while.

And yet paint sticks to glass. If anything, more reliably than it does
to wood
>
> I could be mistaken and am willing to learn!
>
>
>

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> stuart noble wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>>> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
>>> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>>
>>
>> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
>> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>>
>> --
>> Jack Novak
>> Buffalo, NY - USA
>> [email protected]
>
> In my youth I watched my father on many occasions washing brushes in thick
> washing powder 'solution'. In those days there were not many other
> household cleaning agents, and washing powder was used for many things,
> including washing dishes. I still use a sequence of: wipe brushes as dry
> as possible on sheets of newspaper; then hot water and detergent, and dry
> wipe on newspaper again; then a last clean up in brush cleaner or white
> spirit. That way you minimise the amount of dirty solvent you are left
> with having to dispose of.

Typically you want to clean oil based products out of a brush with paint
thinner and or mineral spirits. You can clean out that solvent with water
and a cleaner that breaks down oil such as dish soap that cuts the grease on
your dishes.

When I work with oil bases stains I clean my hands afterwards with paint
thinner and then wash my hands with an automotive type hand cleaner, that
removes the paint thinner.

On 16/08/2010 00:14, Leon wrote:
> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Morgans"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap
>>>>> set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book
>>>>> and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent
>>>>> widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some
>>>>> of them have the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark
>>>>> free finishes with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they
>>>>> are almost cost free.
>>>>
>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
>>>> with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>
>>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
>>> products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out oil
>>> based finishes.
>>
>> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>>
>
> I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water based
> finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust stains from the
> water based finish.
>
>
All this is complicated by the fact that some oil based finishes contain
water i.e. the oil plus a small amount of solvent is emulsified in the
water, supposedly providing the best of both worlds.

On 16/08/2010 12:55, dadiOH wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>> On 16/08/2010 00:14, Leon wrote:
>>> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Morgans"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash
>>>>>>> out in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but
>>>>>>> I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and
>>>>>>> compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will
>>>>>> clean up with water, when using spirits based (non water based)
>>>>>> finishes? Really?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water
>>>>> based products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not
>>>>> wash out oil based finishes.
>>>>
>>>> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>>>>
>>>
>>> I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water
>>> based finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust
>>> stains from the water based finish.
>>>
>>>
>> All this is complicated by the fact that some oil based finishes
>> contain water i.e. the oil plus a small amount of solvent is
>> emulsified in the water, supposedly providing the best of both worlds.
>
> Which?
>
Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
>> Spamlet wrote:
>>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out
>>>>> in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but I've
>>>>> achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and compared
>>>>> with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>
>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean
>>>> up with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and
>>>> what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>>
>>>> More information, please?
>>>> --
>>>> Jim in NC
>>>
>>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as one
>>> of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>>
>> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
>> ____________
>>
>>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least some of
>>> the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:
>>
>> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the product.
>> Water base polyurethane,
>
> But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I was
> talking about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and I'm not psychic
> to know whether this is because water is the solvent or because there are
> emulsifiers or surfactants included of whether indeed the solvent might be
> glycol or alcohol based or based on something I've never heard of.


Reread your lable.

PREPARATION: Ensure all surfaces are free from wax, grease and oil by wiping
with a
cloth dampened with white spirit. Bare Wood: Sand smooth with fine
sandpaper.
Do not use steel wool. Remove dust with a damp cloth.


Do not use steel wool because small broken pieces of it will rust because
of the water in the product and stain your finish.

Jim K wrote:
> On 14 Aug, 13:32, "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
>> the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>>
>> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
>> how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
>> finish.
>>
>> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial bristles
>> or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid them, since the
>> ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles whilst using them.
>>
>> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so what one
>> is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy cloth type
>> roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>
> use aerosols?
> Jim K

use foam brushes. works good and they are cheap

"john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane
> with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>
> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to
> me how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
> finish.
>
> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial
> bristles or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid them,
> since the ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles whilst
> using them.
>
> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so what
> one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy cloth type
> roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.


Artificial brushes are useless. Like nylon sheets they are nasty slippery
things that give little control.

I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap set of
flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book and
stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent widths, and
with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some of them have the
odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes with
them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.

S

"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "john hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane
>> with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle
>> brush.
>
> Try thinning out the stuff with a little Japan Oil. Works good on a flat
> surface, to make it flow out any brush marks. Either that, or a little
> thinner, but you will have to wait for it to set longer.
> --
> Jim in NC


That's the idea: brush marks implies it is drying before it gets the chance
to flow out. On a hot day you may need quite a lot of thinner.

S

"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap set
>> of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book and
>> stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent widths, and
>> with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some of them have
>> the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes
>> with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost
>> free.
>
> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
> with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>
> Really?
>
> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and what
> these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>
> More information, please?
> --
> Jim in NC

It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as one of the
wonders of modern varnishes.
http://ronseal.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/tin/DH%20Varnish_750_BoP.pdf

(I agree with what it says on the tine except where it says use a synthetic
filament brush: I bought a 'special' looking teflon fine filament brush and
it just left trails of bubbles everywhere.)

I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least some of the
Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water: they look kind of
cloudy in the tin but dry clear - and I generally go for the 'diamond hard'
and find it excellent: and a little goes a long way so it is not as
expensive as it seems. They do tend to drip, so the finer the layer you
apply the better, and that is where these thin sectioned artists brushes
come into their own. (It is a year or so since I last did any varnishing -
though there is still plenty needs doing! - so I didn't stick my neck out
here to say whether I thinned my last lot with white spirit or water.).

Incidentally I've also used the same brushes with very thinned gloss paint
to get a smooth finish on the fiddly bits of window frames too..

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap set
>>> of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book and
>>> stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent widths,
>>> and with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some of them
>>> have the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free
>>> finishes with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are
>>> almost cost free.
>>
>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
>> with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>
>> Really?
>
> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
> products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out oil
> based finishes.

Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!

S
>
>
> And concerning artificial brushes, different strokes for different fokes.
> I never use natural brissle brushes and I would be willing to compare
> finish results to what would be considered a good spray finish. Its all
> about knowing what you are doing. Contrairy to popular belief I get glass
> smooth with General Finishes oil based finishes and the recomended "foam
> brushes", a quality foam brush however, I use Wooster foam brushes.
>
>
>
>

"stuart noble" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YDM9o.24011$Nn4.12208@hurricane...
> On 15/08/2010 00:39, Clot wrote:
>> john hamilton wrote:
>>> I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough
>>> polyurethane with the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best
>>> quality bristle brush.
>>> I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising
>>> to me how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's
>>> a matt finish.
>>>
>>> Would I be better using one of the Chinese brushes (with artificial
>>> bristles or the 'natural' very *thin* bristles)? I normally avoid
>>> them, since the ones I've used before have shed a lot of the bristles
>>> whilst using them.
>>> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
>>> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
>>> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>>
>> Faced with the situation you have, I would not apply any varnish to the
>> surface. (I have to say that I would not have done what you did.)
>>
>> My thoughts would be to apply either furniture or car polish and re apply
>> as
>> necessary. I cannot believe that any varnish will "grab hold" to the
>> Formica
>> for more than a short while.
>
> And yet paint sticks to glass. If anything, more reliably than it does to
> wood

And as formica is basically varnish and paper, one would have thought them
to be fairly compatible.

S
>>
>> I could be mistaken and am willing to learn!
>>
>>
>>
>

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
> Spamlet wrote:
>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out
>>>> in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but I've
>>>> achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and compared
>>>> with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>
>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean
>>> up with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and
>>> what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>
>>> More information, please?
>>> --
>>> Jim in NC
>>
>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as one
>> of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>
> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
> ____________
>
>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least some of
>> the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:
>
> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the product.
> Water base polyurethane,

But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I was talking
about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and I'm not psychic to know
whether this is because water is the solvent or because there are
emulsifiers or surfactants included of whether indeed the solvent might be
glycol or alcohol based or based on something I've never heard of.

S

> __________
>
> Regarding the sable brushes, I agree that artist's brushes are handy.
>
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
>
>
>

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
>>> Spamlet wrote:
>>>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out
>>>>>> in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but I've
>>>>>> achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and compared
>>>>>> with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean
>>>>> up with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Really?
>>>>>
>>>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and
>>>>> what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> More information, please?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jim in NC
>>>>
>>>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as one
>>>> of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>>>
>>> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
>>> ____________
>>>
>>>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least some of
>>>> the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:
>>>
>>> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the product.
>>> Water base polyurethane,
>>
>> But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I was
>> talking about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and I'm not
>> psychic to know whether this is because water is the solvent or because
>> there are emulsifiers or surfactants included of whether indeed the
>> solvent might be glycol or alcohol based or based on something I've never
>> heard of.
>
>
> Reread your lable.
>
> PREPARATION: Ensure all surfaces are free from wax, grease and oil by
> wiping with a
> cloth dampened with white spirit. Bare Wood: Sand smooth with fine
> sandpaper.
> Do not use steel wool. Remove dust with a damp cloth.
>
>
> Do not use steel wool because small broken pieces of it will rust because
> of the water in the product and stain your finish.

Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about wiping
down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they would not
advise you getting water in it. Also, I have found that, unlike water based
paints, this varnish does not raise the grain of wood. In fact, I have
actually used it as a wood primer when I could not lay my hands on a solvent
based one locally, in a hurry.

S

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:lE9ao.63152$9R.7253@hurricane...
> Spamlet wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
>>>>> Spamlet wrote:
>>>>>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash
>>>>>>>> out in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but
>>>>>>>> I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and
>>>>>>>> compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will
>>>>>>> clean up with water, when using spirits based (non water based)
>>>>>>> finishes? Really?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability,
>>>>>>> and what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More information, please?
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jim in NC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as
>>>>>> one of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
>>>>> ____________
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least
>>>>>> some of the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:
>>>>>
>>>>> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the
>>>>> product. Water base polyurethane,
>>>>
>>>> But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I was
>>>> talking about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and I'm not
>>>> psychic to know whether this is because water is the solvent or
>>>> because there are emulsifiers or surfactants included of whether
>>>> indeed the solvent might be glycol or alcohol based or based on
>>>> something I've never heard of.
>>>
>>>
>>> Reread your lable.
>>>
>>> PREPARATION: Ensure all surfaces are free from wax, grease and oil by
>>> wiping with a
>>> cloth dampened with white spirit. Bare Wood: Sand smooth with fine
>>> sandpaper.
>>> Do not use steel wool. Remove dust with a damp cloth.
>>>
>>>
>>> Do not use steel wool because small broken pieces of it will rust
>>> because of the water in the product and stain your finish.
>>
>> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
>> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about
>> wiping down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they
>> would not advise you getting water in it.
>
> No, they don't want you to get oil - or grease, etc. - in it. That's why
> they tell you to clean the surface with alcohol. Water and oil don't mix.

White spirit is not an alcohol and does not mix with water.

This thread is being trolled.
S
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
>
>
>

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication that
>> it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>
>
> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]

In my youth I watched my father on many occasions washing brushes in thick
washing powder 'solution'. In those days there were not many other
household cleaning agents, and washing powder was used for many things,
including washing dishes. I still use a sequence of: wipe brushes as dry as
possible on sheets of newspaper; then hot water and detergent, and dry wipe
on newspaper again; then a last clean up in brush cleaner or white spirit.
That way you minimise the amount of dirty solvent you are left with having
to dispose of.

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> stuart noble wrote:
>>>
>>>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>>>> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
>>>> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
>>> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jack Novak
>>> Buffalo, NY - USA
>>> [email protected]
>>
>> In my youth I watched my father on many occasions washing brushes in
>> thick washing powder 'solution'. In those days there were not many other
>> household cleaning agents, and washing powder was used for many things,
>> including washing dishes. I still use a sequence of: wipe brushes as dry
>> as possible on sheets of newspaper; then hot water and detergent, and dry
>> wipe on newspaper again; then a last clean up in brush cleaner or white
>> spirit. That way you minimise the amount of dirty solvent you are left
>> with having to dispose of.
>
> Typically you want to clean oil based products out of a brush with paint
> thinner and or mineral spirits. You can clean out that solvent with water
> and a cleaner that breaks down oil such as dish soap that cuts the grease
> on your dishes.

This is what I just said, except that you should wipe off the bulk of the
paint on newspaper and keep the use of solvents to the minimum. You do not
want to be using water last as this will take longer to dry, and speed the
rusting of the metal bands and nails of many brushes.

Incidentally, whilst finally drying, roll the brushes up in strips of
newspaper, held on with rubber bands. That keeps all the hairs together for
next time.

>
> When I work with oil bases stains I clean my hands afterwards with paint
> thinner and then wash my hands with an automotive type hand cleaner, that
> removes the paint thinner.

There is always a temptation to do this, but you are damaging the protective
surface of your skin and quite likely to become sensitised and be stuck with
the dermatitis, discussed here recently.

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
>> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about wiping
>> down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they would not
>> advise you getting water in it. Also, I have found that, unlike water
>> based paints, this varnish does not raise the grain of wood. In fact, I
>> have actually used it as a wood primer when I could not lay my hands on a
>> solvent based one locally, in a hurry.
>>
>> S
>>
>
> Typically you wipe down with an oil based product , paint thinner, so as
> to not raise the grain and to remove any dust. Paint thinner or better
> yet mineral spirits will evaporate relatively quickly and then you can use
> what ever product you want.

Agreed, except that in *UK* DIY 'mineral spirits' is White Spirit.

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>
>>> Typically you want to clean oil based products out of a brush with paint
>>> thinner and or mineral spirits. You can clean out that solvent with
>>> water
>>> and a cleaner that breaks down oil such as dish soap that cuts the
>>> grease
>>> on your dishes.
>>
>> This is what I just said, except that you should wipe off the bulk of the
>> paint on newspaper and keep the use of solvents to the minimum. You do
>> not
>> want to be using water last as this will take longer to dry, and speed
>> the
>> rusting of the metal bands and nails of many brushes.
>
> You might want to hold the use of solvents to a minimum but after painting
> all day long I don't want to spend 15 more minutes cleaning the brushes.
>
> Additionally, I have never had a brush rust then again I buy the more
> expensive brushes ..and a few of my brushes are not of this millenium.
>
>
>>
>> Incidentally, whilst finally drying, roll the brushes up in strips of
>> newspaper, held on with rubber bands. That keeps all the hairs together
>> for next time.
>
> No need, at least with a good brush..
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> When I work with oil bases stains I clean my hands afterwards with paint
>>> thinner and then wash my hands with an automotive type hand cleaner,
>>> that
>>> removes the paint thinner.
>>
>> There is always a temptation to do this, but you are damaging the
>> protective
>> surface of your skin and quite likely to become sensitised and be stuck
>> with
>> the dermatitis, discussed here recently.
>
> Possibly but I suspect that paint or varnish on my hands for a much longer
> period of time is worse. I normally have thinner on my hands for 10-15
> seconds, that is all it takes. After painting 20-25 homes in the last 12
> years and using this method of cleaning I have not had any problems. This
> has been my practice for 30 or so years with stains. I try now to wear
> synthetic gloves to speed clean up even more but you always get something
> on you.
>

You are one of the lucky ones. I last worked in a lab maybe 30 years ago,
and I still can't touch greases or solvents without coming out in a rash.
I'm allergic to the gloves too...

We are here to advise others: not to say what we have got away with and
invite others to do the same.

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
>>>> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about
>>>> wiping down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they
>>>> would not advise you getting water in it. Also, I have found that,
>>>> unlike water based paints, this varnish does not raise the grain of
>>>> wood. In fact, I have actually used it as a wood primer when I could
>>>> not lay my hands on a solvent based one locally, in a hurry.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>
>>> Typically you wipe down with an oil based product , paint thinner, so as
>>> to not raise the grain and to remove any dust. Paint thinner or better
>>> yet mineral spirits will evaporate relatively quickly and then you can
>>> use what ever product you want.
>>
>> Agreed, except that in *UK* DIY 'mineral spirits' is White Spirit.
> .3
>
> Is that the stuff that turns thick and milky? I threw out half a gallon
> because of that. The first quart I poured out of the gallon was clear as
> was the rest of the container, a few months later it was useless. I
> mistakenly got the Environmentally safe crap the last time I bought.

Getting a bit deja vu here as we went into this just a little while ago.
'White Spirit' is just a distillation fraction and can contain a range of
different solvents that distil in that range. A lot of it is also concocted
out of recycled solvents, and it can end up with quite a bit of water in. I
used to have to test drums of the stuff for use in various printing industry
solutions. Our stock buyers were always looking for the cheapest sources,
and this could mean drums with several inches of rusty water in the bottom,
and any amount of other goo, and quite a wide range of acidity. If it is
only being bottled up for cleaning paint brushes, it doesn't have to be
anything special and may indeed be saturated with water and turn cloudy when
you go to use it. Also, if you use it and then pour it back in the bottle,
some thixotropic modern paints are very good a gelifying in surprisingly
dilute solution.

S

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> You are one of the lucky ones. I last worked in a lab maybe 30 years
>> ago, and I still can't touch greases or solvents without coming out in a
>> rash. I'm allergic to the gloves too...
>
> Perhaps, but I don't know any one that has had a problem doing the
> same.... I was not the first and I learned it from others.
>
>
>
>>
>> We are here to advise others: not to say what we have got away with and
>> invite others to do the same.
>
>
> Advising is what I have done... But if you are prone to be sensitive to
> the product, common sence would tell you to use another method.
>
The trouble being you only get one chance to find out and you may regret it
for the rest of your life.

S

Spamlet wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:lE9ao.63152$9R.7253@hurricane...
>> Spamlet wrote:
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
>>>>>> Spamlet wrote:
>>>>>>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the
>>>>>>>>> Works cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid
>>>>>>>>> you get several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes
>>>>>>>>> they wash out in water too. Some of them have the odd loose
>>>>>>>>> hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes
>>>>>>>>> with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are
>>>>>>>>> almost cost free.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will
>>>>>>>> clean up with water, when using spirits based (non water based)
>>>>>>>> finishes? Really?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability,
>>>>>>>> and what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More information, please?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Jim in NC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as
>>>>>>> one of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
>>>>>> ____________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least
>>>>>>> some of the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with
>>>>>>> water:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the
>>>>>> product. Water base polyurethane,
>>>>>
>>>>> But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I
>>>>> was talking about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and
>>>>> I'm not psychic to know whether this is because water is the
>>>>> solvent or because there are emulsifiers or surfactants included
>>>>> of whether indeed the solvent might be glycol or alcohol based or
>>>>> based on something I've never heard of.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reread your lable.
>>>>
>>>> PREPARATION: Ensure all surfaces are free from wax, grease and oil
>>>> by wiping with a
>>>> cloth dampened with white spirit. Bare Wood: Sand smooth with fine
>>>> sandpaper.
>>>> Do not use steel wool. Remove dust with a damp cloth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do not use steel wool because small broken pieces of it will rust
>>>> because of the water in the product and stain your finish.
>>>
>>> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in
>>> the product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part
>>> about wiping down with white spirit rather gives the impression
>>> that they would not advise you getting water in it.
>>
>> No, they don't want you to get oil - or grease, etc. - in it. That's why
>> they tell you to clean the surface with alcohol. Water
>> and oil don't mix.
>
> White spirit is not an alcohol and does not mix with water.

OK, clean with anything that removes/dissolves oil and grease and does not
leave a residue.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:GHgao.48951$Nn4.41121@hurricane...
> Nova wrote:
>> stuart noble wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes
>>> with hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only
>>> indication that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I
>>> suppose.
>>
>>
>> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
>> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>
> Just about any. What does soap do? It emulsifies oil.
>
> BTW, cold water works too.

But that is an extremely slow process to start with. Better to use a quick
solution, clean the brushes with oil based solvents and once the brushes are
clean wash the solvent out with a grease cutting soap like dish soap. Or
let the solvent evaporate naturally if you are not going to use the brush
for a period of time.

I'd much prefer to paint with oil based as clean up is much faster using oil
based solvents than with water based products and cleaning up with soap and
water. I have lots and lots and lots of practice. ;~)

Spamlet wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:rpW9o.46071$Vv6.20407@hurricane...
>>>> Spamlet wrote:
>>>>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash
>>>>>>> out in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but
>>>>>>> I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and
>>>>>>> compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will
>>>>>> clean up with water, when using spirits based (non water based)
>>>>>> finishes? Really?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability,
>>>>>> and what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More information, please?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jim in NC
>>>>>
>>>>> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as
>>>>> one of the wonders of modern varnishes.
>>>>
>>>> Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
>>>> ____________
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least
>>>>> some of the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:
>>>>
>>>> It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the
>>>> product. Water base polyurethane,
>>>
>>> But it does not say so on the tin of Ronseal Diamond Hard that I was
>>> talking about: it just says brushes wash out in water, and I'm not
>>> psychic to know whether this is because water is the solvent or
>>> because there are emulsifiers or surfactants included of whether
>>> indeed the solvent might be glycol or alcohol based or based on
>>> something I've never heard of.
>>
>>
>> Reread your lable.
>>
>> PREPARATION: Ensure all surfaces are free from wax, grease and oil by
>> wiping with a
>> cloth dampened with white spirit. Bare Wood: Sand smooth with fine
>> sandpaper.
>> Do not use steel wool. Remove dust with a damp cloth.
>>
>>
>> Do not use steel wool because small broken pieces of it will rust
>> because of the water in the product and stain your finish.
>
> Alright, I missed the last bit, but it only says there is water in the
> product not that it is the main solvent: the foregoing part about
> wiping down with white spirit rather gives the impression that they
> would not advise you getting water in it.

No, they don't want you to get oil - or grease, etc. - in it. That's why
they tell you to clean the surface with alcohol. Water and oil don't mix.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"stuart noble" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4QM9o.24037$Nn4.15634@hurricane...
> On 15/08/2010 00:22, Puckdropper wrote:
>> "john hamilton"<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>>>
>>> Would I get any better looking results by using a paint pad? If so
>>> what one is best to get please? Also would a sponge roller or hairy
>>> cloth type roller be a better way to go? Thanks for any advice.
>>
>> I've gotten good results with using paint pads. I cut up old shorts and
>> folded the pieces over to make the pads.
>
> Then you are well on the way to reinventing the french polish "rubber"
> :-), which IME is the only way to get a really smooth finish on anything.
> Traditionally used for shellac based finishes, but works well with paint
> and varnish too.


Perhaps not, paint pads are not like pads for applying shellac or rubbing
out a finish. Paint pads typically hold and release a lot of paint.

On 16/08/2010 19:39, Nova wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
>> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>
>
> I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
> cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?
>

Not offhand. An exterior paint from B&Q IIRC.

stuart noble wrote:
> On 16/08/2010 00:14, Leon wrote:
>> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Morgans"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Spamlet"<[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>>>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>>>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>>>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash
>>>>>> out in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but
>>>>>> I've achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and
>>>>>> compared with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will
>>>>> clean up with water, when using spirits based (non water based)
>>>>> finishes? Really?
>>>>
>>>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water
>>>> based products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not
>>>> wash out oil based finishes.
>>>
>>> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>>>
>>
>> I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water
>> based finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust
>> stains from the water based finish.
>>
>>
> All this is complicated by the fact that some oil based finishes
> contain water i.e. the oil plus a small amount of solvent is
> emulsified in the water, supposedly providing the best of both worlds.

Which?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"stuart noble" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ab7ao.63146$9R.54194@hurricane...
> On 16/08/2010 00:14, Leon wrote:

>>>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
>>>> products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out
>>>> oil
>>>> based finishes.
>>>
>>> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>>>
>>
>> I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water
>> based
>> finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust stains from
>> the
>> water based finish.
>>
>>
> All this is complicated by the fact that some oil based finishes contain
> water i.e. the oil plus a small amount of solvent is emulsified in the
> water, supposedly providing the best of both worlds.


Not sure I am going to buy into that.....

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:32:36 +0100, "john hamilton"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I'm painting a Formica table top with Ronseal ultra tough polyurethane with
>the *matt* finish . I'm using an old, but best quality bristle brush.
>
>I'm not the very worse at wielding a paint brush, but it's surprising to me
>how many brush marks are still remaining, especially since it's a matt
>finish.
>

I'd try to thin with mineral spirits. And brush onto a test piece
first. Most varnishes, poly or alkyd, need thinning out of the can.

The matte finish means there is an additive that reduces the sheen. It
is generally a very fine silica (think very fine sand). That's why you
have to stir the satin or matte poly before applying, because the
silica will settle to the bottom of the can. The matte effect happens
when the fine particles at the surface of the poly scatter light
bouncing off it.

In short, that matte finish won't affect the brush marks one way or
the other.

>> Jim

Wreck only

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:39:07 -0400, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:

>stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Certainly oil based paints I've used you can wash off the brushes with
>> hot water and detergent, but that instruction is the only indication
>> that it contains water. Anything to get the VOC down I suppose.
>
>
>I've never heard of an any oil based paint where the brushes could be
>cleaned with hot water and detergent. Could you specify what product?

Some of the new water-soluble oil paints are allowing that nowadays,
Yack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_miscible_oil_paint This is for
artist oils, but I've seen it advertised for house paints, too, though
not locally.

--
Invest in America: Buy a CONgresscritter today!

Spamlet wrote:
> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly
>>> cheap set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works
>>> cheapo book and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get
>>> several decent widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out
>>> in water too. Some of them have the odd loose hair, but I've
>>> achieved very good brushmark free finishes with them, and compared
>>> with 'the proper' brushes, they are almost cost free.
>>
>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean
>> up with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> I gotta' find out what finishes will qualify for this ability, and
>> what these brushes are, if that is indeed the case.
>>
>> More information, please?
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> It has nothing to do with the brushes: I just mentioned that as one
> of the wonders of modern varnishes.

Only if it is water based. Not all "modern varnishes" are.
____________

> I don't know if they are all like it these days, but at least some of
> the Ronseals I've used do wash out pretty well with water:

It washes out with water because WATER IS THE SOLVENT in the product. Water
base polyurethane,
__________

Regarding the sable brushes, I agree that artist's brushes are handy.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Wreck only


Since I haven't commented on it yet, isn't that title a bit of an
oxymoron? "Best" and "poly" are mutually exclusive, wot?

On 16/08/2010 21:29, Leon wrote:
> "stuart noble"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ab7ao.63146$9R.54194@hurricane...
>> On 16/08/2010 00:14, Leon wrote:
>
>>>>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
>>>>> products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out
>>>>> oil
>>>>> based finishes.
>>>>
>>>> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>>>>
>>>
>>> I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water
>>> based
>>> finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust stains from
>>> the
>>> water based finish.
>>>
>>>
>> All this is complicated by the fact that some oil based finishes contain
>> water i.e. the oil plus a small amount of solvent is emulsified in the
>> water, supposedly providing the best of both worlds.
>
>
> Not sure I am going to buy into that.....
>
>

If you care to mooch round B&Q with a magnifying glass reading the
instructions on cans of paint, ..... No, well, can't say I blame you :-)

Larry Jaques wrote:
> Wreck only
>
>
> Since I haven't commented on it yet, isn't that title a bit of an
> oxymoron? "Best" and "poly" are mutually exclusive, wot?

Not IMO. I like lacquer best but anytime I want a hard, scratch resistant
surface I use poly. OIL poly. If I also want a top coat that doesn't color
the wood I use water poly.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Spamlet" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> I solved the varnish/laquer problem when I saw a frighteningly cheap
>>>> set of flat 'sable' (very fine hair) brushes in the Works cheapo book
>>>> and stationery shop. For a couple of quid you get several decent
>>>> widths, and with the modern varnishes they wash out in water too. Some
>>>> of them have the odd loose hair, but I've achieved very good brushmark
>>>> free finishes with them, and compared with 'the proper' brushes, they
>>>> are almost cost free.
>>>
>>> I wanna' make sure I read this right; these sable brushes will clean up
>>> with water, when using spirits based (non water based) finishes?
>>>
>>> Really?
>>
>> No, not really, natural hair brushes go limp when used with water based
>> products, in my experience and as you suspect water does not wash out oil
>> based finishes.
>
> Read the tin: seems like you have not done much varnishing lately!
>

I read the lable that you provided in your post below, it is a water based
finish. The reason to not use steel wool is to prevent rust stains from the
water based finish.